October 22, 2020 • 31 mins
This week on Turnout with Katie Couric: the power and drive of youth activism. First, 19-year-old youth activist Tyler Okeke makes the case for lowering the voting age to 16. Then, Katie talks with activist, author and podcast host DeRay Mckesson on his own youth activism and how to get this new protest generation to turnout for elections (hint: make voting easier!). We also hear advice from civil rights activists on where they find inspiration and why it’s important to keep paving the way, to make the world better and easier, for those who come after you.
More about the guests and organizations mentioned in this episode:
Courtland Cox, activist and veteran of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee
Tyler Okeke, Vote at 16 Youth Organizer for Power California
DeRay McKesson, activist, author of the book, “On the Other Side of Freedom: The Case for Hope,” and host of the podcast “Pod Save the People” from Crooked Media
Rock The Vote, youth empowerment organization
Judy Richardson, documentary filmmaker and veteran of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee
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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I think the most important thing for my generation, whether
you know John Lewis was in Alabama, whether it's Jewelry
Lattin and Joyce Lattin and Mississippi, or myself in New York,
the murder of Emmett till was I mean a singular
moment for a whole generation. My name is Cartland Cox.
(00:26):
I participated in the Student and Voluntordinating Committee organization from
nineteen sixty to nineteen sixty seven. During the early week
sep February sixty the demonstrations that came to be called
the fit In movement exploded across the South. Even in
New York. We all understood the question of race. If
(00:48):
you were in high school, people try to tell you
to take shop, don't take the academic subjects, because you're
not gonna go anywhere with that. You had a place
within this society. Put something deep down within you moving
me that I could no longer be satisfied. I'll go
along with an evil system. You were at the bottom
(01:10):
of a hierarchy. There was no place for you in
the economic world. There were no models for you in
the political world. African Americans were second class human beings.
I'm Katie Couric and this is turnout. We had about
a hundred and thirty this week on the podcast. Many
(01:30):
of us didn't realize just how important our movement grove
being the power and drive of youth activism. I was
fourteen years old. I was a little eight year old girl,
fifteen and maybe sixteen years old something like that. From
the right to vote to climate protests to Black Lives Matter,
(01:51):
so many of the movements for changing this country have
been led by young people just being on the front
lines with the people that looked like me as also
fighting for their lives. Time now also, it's the same
age as me or younger and trying to stay ground,
tore up in jail, old and old again. I don't care,
(02:15):
and I'm more than ever with all these protests. As
long as they don't guys allow, I feel like we
can definitely make more of a difference. We want freedom,
and we wanted now. When you are twenty something, right,
you don't understand all of the dangers. I mean you
(02:39):
you know, you hear it, right, but it doesn't sink in.
But we we were very, very conscious of what we
were doing, and we just kept moving forward. When he
was a teenager, Courtland Cox learned of the lynching of
a boy his same age and another state. It was
a national tragedy that let Portlands, like so many others,
(03:02):
to join the civil rights movement. For me, the singular
issue was the question of Emmett Till. I was fourteen
years old, and I remember it because, you know, I
was reading it in Jet Magazine on the subway in
New York. The thing that was important for for the
black community was the Jet Magazine. That was our Facebook,
(03:27):
that was our Twitter, that was where we got the
news and the decision of Emmett Till's mother to have
his disfigured body on there, and it was in Jet magazine.
That was the most profound place that could have been.
It couldn't have I mean there no newspaper could have
(03:47):
done what Jet magazine did. You found out about the
black community by reading Jet Magazine, we knew that if
we did not break that system, then many more people
would be killed, Many more people would be you know, suppressed,
many more people would would not have a life that
(04:09):
they could pursue. That men had any meaning to it.
Let's sales Emet Till for John Lewis's generation, but the
fact that we have access to so much information because
of Twitter, because on Instagram, because everyone has a super
computer in their pockets. We've heard about every single one
that has happened everywhere. Tyler okay K is a nineteen
(04:32):
year old activist from Los Angeles who's in his second
year of studying public policy at the University of Chicago.
The death of Trayvon Martin the moment he died, I
don't think I've worn a hood outside of my home
ever since. I remember exactly where I was when I
heard about the news in Florida, Parkland. We're on a
(04:52):
bus heading actually to a Youth in Government conference where
we would model the California state legislature in court. And
it was on that bus full of Stina is my age,
that we heard that seventeen students died because of a
mass shooting incidents at a high school. Also hearing about
families being separated at the border, and and a myriad
of different losses. Right there have been so many, just
(05:13):
little events of politicization and little events of reckoning that
have really molded our generation into what we are now.
In Tyler's junior year of high school, he was elected
to be the sole student representative on the Los Angeles
Unified School District Board. I wanted to uplift the voices
(05:33):
and the issues that marginalized people in my community faced.
But when he actually sat on the board his senior
year and realized his boat didn't count, that he was
simply in an advisory role, he decided to do something
about it. He formally proposed that the school board consider
expanding voting rights to sixteen year olds. The rationale was
(05:54):
that at sixteen, we are deeply affected by decisions that
are made throughout our political systems, but most directly by
these decisions that are being made at our local school boards.
His resolution passed, and Tyler continues to organize around statewide
campaigns that expand voting rights to sixteen year olds. In fact,
(06:14):
this November there are three youth vote initiatives on the
California ballot. The statewide effort is Proposition eighteen, which expands
voting rights to seventeen year olds in primary or special
elections if they turn eighteen by the next general election.
The next one is Measure G, which is a local
measure in San Francisco which would allow sixteen and seventeen
(06:35):
year old citizens to vote in municipal elections in San Francisco.
Another one is also still in the Bay Area of California,
and it's in Oakland and measures called Measure q Q,
which would extend the right to vote in school board
elections to sixteen and seventeen year olds in that city.
Tyler believes more young people would turn out to vote
if they could be involved in the election process earlier.
(06:59):
Eight is a very transitionary time, right. It's when people
move off to college, they leave home, they find new jobs,
they start to leave their own unique mark as an
independent individual, and that makes voting even more complicated. Right.
I'm someone who is deeply civically engaged, have every intention
voting in this election. But it took me an arm
(07:20):
and a leg and grappling with bureaucrats just to get
my ballot, my l a county ballot since all the
way to Chicago. And we believe that when we introduce
voting at sixteen, when folks are in stable environments, sixteen
year olds, juniors in high school across the country are
taking us history. And once we have folks vote in
at least one election, but preferably two elections, the statistics
(07:42):
show that they're more likely to be lifelong habitual voters.
It allows us to really grapple with America and the
process of democracy, and it's a learning experience for us,
and it's strengthens our democracy and make sure that we
continue to have a culture of voting in the United
States starting at sixteen. But for Tyler, civic engagement doesn't
(08:04):
stop at the ballot. I will always maintain that voting
is the bare minimum that you can do. Voting is
something I spent a lot of time talking about, mostly
because of the vote at sixteen resolution I introduced when
I was on the school board. But it is by
no means our pathway to liberation and is by no
means our pathway to freedom. M okay, so that the
(08:25):
United States was the greatest purveyor of violence, both here
and abroad, but that's not something we hear often. So
we can't say that we believe in liberation. We can't
say that we believe in freedom for all. But our
advocacy and our solutions end at voting every two years.
It just does not make sense. So it's important that
we understand we vote because we have to, and there's
(08:45):
immense change that can happen within government, and we also
organize outside of it because we need to and we
have to. And it doesn't matter who the president it is.
The violence of the United States isn't going to end overnight.
Coming up where youth activism and turnout collide. On August nine,
(09:19):
two thousand fourteen, Michael Brown, an unarmed eighteen year old,
was shot six times by a white police officer in Ferguson, Missouri.
The response from the community was immediate. Days of protests
turned into weeks. Last night, again in suburban St. Louis,
the scene that photographers captured looked like a police state.
(09:42):
The State Highway Patrol and the National Guards swarmed the St.
Louis area using the same tactical get up and the
same weaponry we've come to expect an urban warfare in
Iraq and Afghanistan. Police and Ferguson, Missouri once again had
to put down and head off violence in the streets
following the shooting days ago of a young, unarmed black
man who was supposed to head off to college this week.
(10:05):
But protesters and activists came to joining the voices of
the heartbroken community, among them Deray McKesson, in so many ways,
it feels like it was just yesterday. When the protests erupted.
Dray was twenty nine and working in Minneapolis as the
human resources director for the city's public school system. He
(10:25):
drove out to St. Louis that first weekend and eventually stayed,
leaving his job and dedicating himself to the streets, where
he documented what was happening on social media today of protests,
We've been out here every day fighting because we know
what's happening right now is wrong, and we'll continue fighting
the unrest. And Ferguson set off Black Lives Matter protests
(10:49):
all across the country, and Deray became one of the
movements most prominent voices. The thing about the movement is
that it was organic. People just came outside, People saw
his body, and they aim and people stayed and people fought.
And I think that like as much as people want
the end of hierarchy, and that people want this narrative
that like a person started it and did that, and
(11:09):
I think that that narrative is really sexy, but it
is not true. So when we think about Ferguson, it
is Anybody who was in St. Louis will tell you
that this was really organic. There were a set of
people who had outside roles. I had a big platform.
I was like sort of the town crier, but I
was one of many people who had a big role
to play, and like, I don't lose anything by saying
that it is true. And it changed so many of
(11:32):
our lives. And there's this weird sort of like a
way that people act, Like the protesters like emerged out
of the air. You're like, no, there was like a
whole foundation that was set in uh set in St.
Louis and in Ferguson for four hundred days straight with
like no money that if you remember the press was
not on our side then, I mean it wasn't. People
weren't really celebrating activists. Now it's like it feels like
(11:53):
everybody's an activist. Activism is sort of like mainstream. That
was not the I remember like defending everything because the
press of hostile to us. Dray is an activist, author
and host of the podcast Pods Saved the People, and
he traces the work that he does today back to
his early years. I ran for a rep in sixth
(12:15):
grade to be like the sixth grade class rep, and
that like put me on this path where I was like,
I think I want to I think I want to
do this, And because of some student government people, I
found an organization to organize within the city, and like
that changed my life. So I was in student government
from sixth grade to senior in college. I like it
was the most consistent thing I've ever done in my life.
It's where I so to learn what policy was and programming,
(12:37):
and how to be in meetings and with like how
to fight, like you know, a ton of things. Okay,
When I ran for president of my elementary school and
one just by eleven votes, Stephen Russell spread the word
that I only won by eleven votes, I said, people
wonder why I'm always smiling, It's because I'm happy, happy
to go to such a wonderful school. Guess Jamestown is
(13:00):
a wonderful school, and I'd like to keep it that way. Anyway.
It's so weird that I remember that, But I mean,
it's such a great point because getting involved in student government,
it sounds like it really did give you the building
blocks for what later would be your life's calling and
your career. Um you were saying you learned about public policy,
(13:24):
you learned how to conduct yourself and meetings. You said
you learned to fight, and I was like, what, well,
I just learned, you know. It's interesting. It was a
combination of student government and then college, and I was
in student government. I was class president of student body
president at Bowden Um. I learned both how to sort
of like fight institutions and press, but also how to imagine.
That was sort of the gift of boding. At Boden,
(13:45):
I learned what it meant to dream big, like what
it meant to like live in a world where you
can move constraints out of the way, like you could
ask the biggest question, and and those things that helped
me imensely, so like in the work I do now
around policing and incarceration and racial justice, so much of
it like we're telling a story about a world that
has not yet existed, but we believe in. And that
(14:05):
skill is something I learned at Bowden. At Bowden, how
much pushback did you get for dreaming big, for being
a disruptor, for imagining a world that did not yet exist? Yeah,
so it wasn't. I don't even know if I would
call it pushback as much as I would it was
like I had to like help people see them like
(14:25):
we can do this, we can totally do it. They're like,
I don't know. I'm like, but but that's what happens, right,
is that people grow up seeing constraints. That's how you
stay safe. That's how you're secure, is that you're like, Okay,
here's where the limit is, and I'm not gonna pass
the limit. Here's how much money I have. I'm not
gonna dream bigger than that. Here's how much space. Like,
the constraints actually keep people safe. So I never blame
people for starting from a place of constraints. Part of
(14:49):
so much of my work is saying like, Okay, I
totally hear that, but what about this, Like what do
we do this? So at Boden, I think I refined
that so now in the movement stace, so I'm like, oh,
we can totally change the felony theft amounts, so we
can ban on our grades, or we can like starting
from a sense of possibility as an orientation is something
I just like learned how to do and how to
help people take that journey too. Do you think because
(15:11):
the protests now are more diverse and encompass sort of
more people socio economically, ethnically, racially. That that's why it's
been celebrated in a much bigger way than the protests
in Ferguson. No. I think that. I think some of
(15:31):
it was like Ferguson laid the groundwork. It was like
the Ferguson protest changes the language and did nada. I
think that the hard part is that if you remember, after,
it was like a lot of panels, right. It was
like people were like, oh goodness, I didn't know, I
need to learn, and there was a lot of learning.
So it's like a million panels, a million talks, a
million like it was just like a lot of that.
(15:52):
I think by the time came around, people were like
I know, they were like I get it. They were
like okay. And and the hunger I see in is
people trying to figure out what to do. In I
didn't see a lot of people trying to figure out
what to do. I I saw a lot of people
trying to make sense of what was happening, just trying
to understand it. And I don't see that this time.
(16:12):
This time, I see people being like, oh, hey, got
it now, what like what do we do to fix it?
I'm always mindful that a change in conversation is not
a change in people's lives, right that, Like, the conversation
is more mainstream than it's ever been, but the outcomes
are literally the same, Like no change. How much credit
does Black Lives Matter deserve for an increase in student
(16:35):
activism and all kinds of social justice issues? He's when
I think about Black Lives Matter, I think about a movement,
and the same way that when we think about the
Civil Rights movement. It was a broad collection of people,
all fighting for black people in a specific way. And
I think that it is undeniable that if the protest
had not begun in Ferguson Ineen, that there would not
(16:56):
be this level of activism. That I think that there
was something incredible about seeing people standing in the street
that empowered other people to stand in the street and
seeing it online on social media, Like, I think it
was a game change. I think that people understood that
they have power. That's what the best of organizing is, right,
The best of organizing is helping you realize you already
had power. I can't give you power, you had it already.
(17:18):
I can help you use it. I can help you
see it and name it and marry it to policy.
I can do that for you. And I think that
the protests in fourteen did that for a ton of people.
And then I think we just saw it continue and continue.
I think that we saw a sort of a zenith
of it right now and in June, and I think
that it waivers a little bit, and I think there
(17:38):
will see it again. But I think is the beginning
in so many ways. Do you think this kind of
activism translates into voting, because historically many of the young
people who are out on the streets protesting don't turn
out to vote. What is that about? Yeah? I think
some of it is like the messaging right that I
(18:00):
think that we can't shame people into voting. I think
that's just a bad strategy. So I think I'm I'm
happy to shame people. I'm happy to do anything that
gets them to vote. To ray, Yeah, I just don't
I think that what we've seen those that it doesn't
get them to vote. I think it doesn't get young people.
I don't know if it might get older people, it
doesn't get young people. So saying things like if you
care about the country, your vote and I and I
(18:20):
say that it's somebody who like the first person ever
permanently banned from Twitter was banned for raising money to
try and get me killed. I've been dragged out of
a police department by my ankles. My phone has been hacked.
I get all these things happened to me. And I voted.
I voted every time. I didn't miss a vote. That like,
voting wasn't the thing that made America kind to me.
It wasn't. I also don't expect there to be one
(18:42):
thing to do it. Voting is like one of the
tools and the tool kit. I think that there's a
way for people who are willing to put their life
from the line, especially in thisen to now moment, where
when you tell them like if you care your vote,
people like if I care, if I care, I put
my life on the line. I did that right. So
I think that some of it is like a nuance
with which we tell people that it's not this either or.
(19:02):
It's not like vote or hate the country or like
vote or do it is vote and do all the
other things right, that this is not like an either
or moment. Early evidence from the primaries Ray suggests the
youth voter turnout is going to be low again on
Super Tuesday, fewer than one in five young people cast
(19:23):
their ballots. So why the why the disconnect? Yeah, I
think we'll see, you know. I think COVID sort of
a weird moment, but I think a lot of young
people will vote. I think one of the things that
the right does really well is that the right is
always talking directly to voters, not to the elite, not
to like this academic class. I think that the left
(19:44):
is always talking to the elites. It is always talking
like the MSNBC college degreed crowd, uh and only talking
to like voters in their living rooms in the final moment.
So in this last couple of days, I've been on
a lot of outreach to black men who are oddly
leaning Trump, and it's not hard to convert them. Board
(20:04):
I realized it's like nobody's ever talked to them that
like people just assume. One of the things that we
learned right, which is interesting, is that racism alone is
not a disqualifier for black men for Trump, which is interesting.
And the reason it's not is what they would say
is that like the whole systems racist, So like, okay,
he's like another racist person in a racist system. The
impact of racism is actually the disqualifier. So I'm like,
(20:27):
did you not see the kids in the cages? They're
like what kids in? Right? Like they literally there's like
a set of people who actually don't know the stuff
that he's done. So part of it is like how
do we actually tell stories that like re Imfort, they
hear him and they watch Fox sometimes, but they actually
don't see what he has done. So, like it has
been a lot of storytelling. And if there's anything that
I understand more intimately than I did in S is
(20:48):
like the way and misinformation moves and the way that
these narratives become spun so that we get people on
our side who actually repeating, like top cop repeating all
this stuff that is like not true, but they've heard
of a million times. I've learned that it's actually not
enough to be right, that like you actually have to
be a good storyteller and be right. If you have
(21:09):
to do a P. S A to get young people
to vote, what would it say? Yeah, so I would
say that, like the vote is three things. The vote
is a power to hire fire in shape, and we
want to make sure that you use all the power
you have right that that's a part of this game.
That we want to make sure that you choose the
right people, get rid of the bad people, and that
your values are represented in the panopoly of people, so
(21:31):
that we can shape an agenda that values you and
will take care of you. The second is that when
you think about politics, I've heard a lot of people
say that, you know, I don't do politics, and politics
is always doing you. That the judge who decided on
those sentences was probably elected. That the sheriff who enforced
that eviction was probably elected. That the police chief is
reporting to a person who is elected. That the laws
(21:52):
that people are operating under like somebody chose them, that
people who we chose. I'm making these choices that shape
our lives, and we have responsibility to make sure those
are good people. And the third thing is that this
is never either or that, like, this is about doing
this one thing right now, but holding people to the
fire as we keep going, and hopefully you'll be one
(22:14):
of the people that we vote for one day, so
we won't have to say, like I'm disappointed in this person,
disappointed this person, I will actually just already have the
people who represent so much of what we believe in.
Tyler Okayk is the nineteen year old voting rights activists.
We interviewed him for this podcast and he said it's
a symptom of what it looks like when young people
finally have candidates that they can believe in and get behind,
(22:37):
and he was citing people like aoc ilhant Omar, Katie
Porter and other progressive candidates. Do you think that's what
is going to motivate young people to get out there
and vote when they have candidates they can really believe in? Absolutely.
I think that some of it is, like, you know,
people want to see that their values are clearly represented
(22:58):
and not have to search for them, and I think
that's hard for a lot of people. I think that, like,
there are a lot of people who are like, you know,
the right is trying to kill me, but like I
don't really like the left. People like they're like lukewarm.
But you know, it is there are so many people
that look like career politicians who like they've been in
these roles for thirty years, they've been in the roles
for fifty you know, they've represented the district since I
(23:19):
was born, And people are tired of that, you know,
and they're certainly tired of it when like their community
hasn't gotten better in any way that they can feel.
And I think that we need to respond. That That's
why AOC and Omar and Katie porter All. I think
that that's why Corey Bush, that's why some of the
new members in Congress resonate with people, because they're at
least like, you know what, you might not have done
any of this political stuff before, but at least I
(23:41):
know you've got my values with you, like, I don't
have to question that as someone who knows the power
of social media very well. Should our election process be
more online focused in your view? No, I think that
we should just make a voting easier, right, it should
be a holiday. I think that's easy. I think that
people should be able to register same day, Like we
(24:02):
should just take all the burden off a voting. Everybody
should be able to get a mail in ballet without
without a reason, like all of that should just be easier. That. Yeah,
I don't so, I don't. I'm not convinced that the
Internet is secure enough right now for this, but definitely
we need to make it easier when we come back.
How use activists then and now keep the fight going.
(24:36):
I've always felt like I'm knocking on the doors of power,
like I'm shaking and rattling the knob and I'm begging
to be involved again. Here's Tyler okayka. But I think
that that has always been the nature of this work,
and I've always come to it with understanding that this
is what we do for our communities, because the violence
of poverty, the violence of police violence, the violence of
climate change are all things that I prefer not to
(24:58):
feel and not to impart on. Folks. The most important
thing about young people, it's not that they're in the
street once again Courtland Cox, veteran of the Student Non
Violent Coordinating Committee or SNICK as it's known. It is
that they have seen something and they've said, I am
not gonna tolerate this injustice anymore. Now. It's gonna take
(25:21):
them on a path, and it's taken me on the
path over sixty years. It is them getting on the
path that's the inspiration. The most humbling thing that I've
found in my life. I'm now seventy nine years old.
You know, the most important thing is that we did
(25:43):
things that are necessary, but we will never do things
that will be sufficient. And I tell young people that
because they have to understand that this is a very
long struggle. And you need these young people because they
begin to imagine the world that is different. Whether they're
(26:05):
talking about environmental stuff or whether they're talking about guns,
or whether they're talking about race. They're able to see
with their minds and create a different reality that benefits us.
All I mean, that's to me is the aspiring piece.
(26:29):
If you do nothing, nothing changes for the better. Documentary
filmmaker Judy Richardson is another veteran of Snick. She co
produced the Landmark PBS series Eyes on the Prize, which
documents the history of the civil rights movement. We were
interviewing A. D. Nixon, who was one of the major
(26:50):
folks leaders in the Montgomery Bus boy cut, and I
remember we were interviewing him and at some point he said,
you know, I've been working for for this stuff all
my life. He said it, and I always figured I
was doing it for the folks who came behind me.
But then I said, you know, I want to enjoy
some of this stuff myself. Okay, but that's what you
got from all the folks who were older than us.
There was always a sense that they might never see
(27:13):
the change that they were working for, but that if
they did nothing, nothing would change for all the folks
who came behind, or wouldn't change for the better. So
I think part of it is is having been surrounded
by those kinds of folks who had seen neighbors killed
for just trying trying to register, not even voting, for
trying to register to vote. So they're used to all
(27:36):
of these inequalities, have to fight tooth and nail just
to get a little bit out, but they don't stop.
That's what's amazing. And so I think part of the
reason that all of us are still going um, and
I often say, you know what's amazing to me is
that because we were so young when we started. I
don't know any of us who were sitting around, you know,
(27:57):
didn't baby booties. We're not doing that. You know. Now
we may be doing that too, I shouldn't say that,
but that's not all we're doing. You know that we
are still I am surrounded by people who are my age,
who are in our seventies, some in our early eighties,
you know, who are still working for justice. We haven't stopped.
That's that's amazing to be and that's that's the energy
(28:21):
that allows us to enjoy and reap the benefits of
what all of that work did, right, the fact that
I can vote freely, and now my fight is not
making sure that African American people have the most basic
right of a citizen, but expanding it to young people
and expanding it to more people, and um, it also
allows me to do it with much less at stake.
(28:43):
And that's that's what we That's what I hope to
have contributed to for future generations, moving us a little
bit closer towards the world that we want to see.
There will be a moment where gen Z needs to
defer to the generation below us. There's a visionary power
that young people will hold, and that is something that
we need to continue to follow. Young people, not a
(29:05):
certain generation, are the moral compass of the country. And
I think right now this is our moment, and we're
going to continue to develop our ideas and I think
we will take our world further than than any other
generation has. But I hope that the generation that comes
after us takes us even further than how far we've gone.
And that's that's the idea I like to adopt about
movements and young people's role in it, and also the
(29:27):
potential that a generation brings to the table. Next week
on Turnout, this is going to be a fraud like
you've never seen. A conversation with the top Republican election
lawyer on those baseless voter fraud claims. Where's the evidence?
(29:50):
I think there's a lot of evidence, but will provide
you with some. Okay, Benjamin Ginsburg's blunt rebuke, that's next week. Okay, listeners,
The election is officially around the corner. Can you believe it?
Make sure you have a plan to vote. If you
aren't one of the tens of millions who have already
done so, go to vote dot org to find out
(30:11):
election week details in your state, and if you'd like
to learn more about how to empower young people, check
out Rock the Vote dot org, Empower California dot org. And,
as always, to stay on top of all my election coverage,
find me on social media or subscribe to my morning
newsletter wake Up Call. You can sign up at Katie
(30:31):
correct dot com. Turnout is a production of I Heartmedia
and Katie Curric Media. The executive Producers are Katie Curriic
and Courtney Littz. Supervising producers Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements,
Eliza costUS and Emily Pento. Editing by Derrick Clements and
Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derrick Clements. Our researcher is Gabriel
(30:55):
Loser and special thanks to my right hand woman Adriana Fasio.
You can follow me at all my election coverage at
Katie Currect. Meanwhile, yes, I'm Katie Currect. Thanks so much
for listening everyone. We'll see you next time.
I think the most important thing for my generation, whether
you know John Lewis was in Alabama, whether it's Jewelry
Lattin and Joyce Lattin and Mississippi, or myself in New York,
the murder of Emmett till was I mean a singular
moment for a whole generation. My name is Cartland Cox.
(00:26):
I participated in the Student and Voluntordinating Committee organization from
nineteen sixty to nineteen sixty seven. During the early week
sep February sixty the demonstrations that came to be called
the fit In movement exploded across the South. Even in
New York. We all understood the question of race. If
(00:48):
you were in high school, people try to tell you
to take shop, don't take the academic subjects, because you're
not gonna go anywhere with that. You had a place
within this society. Put something deep down within you moving
me that I could no longer be satisfied. I'll go
along with an evil system. You were at the bottom
(01:10):
of a hierarchy. There was no place for you in
the economic world. There were no models for you in
the political world. African Americans were second class human beings.
I'm Katie Couric and this is turnout. We had about
a hundred and thirty this week on the podcast. Many
(01:30):
of us didn't realize just how important our movement grove
being the power and drive of youth activism. I was
fourteen years old. I was a little eight year old girl,
fifteen and maybe sixteen years old something like that. From
the right to vote to climate protests to Black Lives Matter,
(01:51):
so many of the movements for changing this country have
been led by young people just being on the front
lines with the people that looked like me as also
fighting for their lives. Time now also, it's the same
age as me or younger and trying to stay ground,
tore up in jail, old and old again. I don't care,
(02:15):
and I'm more than ever with all these protests. As
long as they don't guys allow, I feel like we
can definitely make more of a difference. We want freedom,
and we wanted now. When you are twenty something, right,
you don't understand all of the dangers. I mean you
(02:39):
you know, you hear it, right, but it doesn't sink in.
But we we were very, very conscious of what we
were doing, and we just kept moving forward. When he
was a teenager, Courtland Cox learned of the lynching of
a boy his same age and another state. It was
a national tragedy that let Portlands, like so many others,
(03:02):
to join the civil rights movement. For me, the singular
issue was the question of Emmett Till. I was fourteen
years old, and I remember it because, you know, I
was reading it in Jet Magazine on the subway in
New York. The thing that was important for for the
black community was the Jet Magazine. That was our Facebook,
(03:27):
that was our Twitter, that was where we got the
news and the decision of Emmett Till's mother to have
his disfigured body on there, and it was in Jet magazine.
That was the most profound place that could have been.
It couldn't have I mean there no newspaper could have
(03:47):
done what Jet magazine did. You found out about the
black community by reading Jet Magazine, we knew that if
we did not break that system, then many more people
would be killed, Many more people would be you know, suppressed,
many more people would would not have a life that
(04:09):
they could pursue. That men had any meaning to it.
Let's sales Emet Till for John Lewis's generation, but the
fact that we have access to so much information because
of Twitter, because on Instagram, because everyone has a super
computer in their pockets. We've heard about every single one
that has happened everywhere. Tyler okay K is a nineteen
(04:32):
year old activist from Los Angeles who's in his second
year of studying public policy at the University of Chicago.
The death of Trayvon Martin the moment he died, I
don't think I've worn a hood outside of my home
ever since. I remember exactly where I was when I
heard about the news in Florida, Parkland. We're on a
(04:52):
bus heading actually to a Youth in Government conference where
we would model the California state legislature in court. And
it was on that bus full of Stina is my age,
that we heard that seventeen students died because of a
mass shooting incidents at a high school. Also hearing about
families being separated at the border, and and a myriad
of different losses. Right there have been so many, just
(05:13):
little events of politicization and little events of reckoning that
have really molded our generation into what we are now.
In Tyler's junior year of high school, he was elected
to be the sole student representative on the Los Angeles
Unified School District Board. I wanted to uplift the voices
(05:33):
and the issues that marginalized people in my community faced.
But when he actually sat on the board his senior
year and realized his boat didn't count, that he was
simply in an advisory role, he decided to do something
about it. He formally proposed that the school board consider
expanding voting rights to sixteen year olds. The rationale was
(05:54):
that at sixteen, we are deeply affected by decisions that
are made throughout our political systems, but most directly by
these decisions that are being made at our local school boards.
His resolution passed, and Tyler continues to organize around statewide
campaigns that expand voting rights to sixteen year olds. In fact,
(06:14):
this November there are three youth vote initiatives on the
California ballot. The statewide effort is Proposition eighteen, which expands
voting rights to seventeen year olds in primary or special
elections if they turn eighteen by the next general election.
The next one is Measure G, which is a local
measure in San Francisco which would allow sixteen and seventeen
(06:35):
year old citizens to vote in municipal elections in San Francisco.
Another one is also still in the Bay Area of California,
and it's in Oakland and measures called Measure q Q,
which would extend the right to vote in school board
elections to sixteen and seventeen year olds in that city.
Tyler believes more young people would turn out to vote
if they could be involved in the election process earlier.
(06:59):
Eight is a very transitionary time, right. It's when people
move off to college, they leave home, they find new jobs,
they start to leave their own unique mark as an
independent individual, and that makes voting even more complicated. Right.
I'm someone who is deeply civically engaged, have every intention
voting in this election. But it took me an arm
(07:20):
and a leg and grappling with bureaucrats just to get
my ballot, my l a county ballot since all the
way to Chicago. And we believe that when we introduce
voting at sixteen, when folks are in stable environments, sixteen
year olds, juniors in high school across the country are
taking us history. And once we have folks vote in
at least one election, but preferably two elections, the statistics
(07:42):
show that they're more likely to be lifelong habitual voters.
It allows us to really grapple with America and the
process of democracy, and it's a learning experience for us,
and it's strengthens our democracy and make sure that we
continue to have a culture of voting in the United
States starting at sixteen. But for Tyler, civic engagement doesn't
(08:04):
stop at the ballot. I will always maintain that voting
is the bare minimum that you can do. Voting is
something I spent a lot of time talking about, mostly
because of the vote at sixteen resolution I introduced when
I was on the school board. But it is by
no means our pathway to liberation and is by no
means our pathway to freedom. M okay, so that the
(08:25):
United States was the greatest purveyor of violence, both here
and abroad, but that's not something we hear often. So
we can't say that we believe in liberation. We can't
say that we believe in freedom for all. But our
advocacy and our solutions end at voting every two years.
It just does not make sense. So it's important that
we understand we vote because we have to, and there's
(08:45):
immense change that can happen within government, and we also
organize outside of it because we need to and we
have to. And it doesn't matter who the president it is.
The violence of the United States isn't going to end overnight.
Coming up where youth activism and turnout collide. On August nine,
(09:19):
two thousand fourteen, Michael Brown, an unarmed eighteen year old,
was shot six times by a white police officer in Ferguson, Missouri.
The response from the community was immediate. Days of protests
turned into weeks. Last night, again in suburban St. Louis,
the scene that photographers captured looked like a police state.
(09:42):
The State Highway Patrol and the National Guards swarmed the St.
Louis area using the same tactical get up and the
same weaponry we've come to expect an urban warfare in
Iraq and Afghanistan. Police and Ferguson, Missouri once again had
to put down and head off violence in the streets
following the shooting days ago of a young, unarmed black
man who was supposed to head off to college this week.
(10:05):
But protesters and activists came to joining the voices of
the heartbroken community, among them Deray McKesson, in so many ways,
it feels like it was just yesterday. When the protests erupted.
Dray was twenty nine and working in Minneapolis as the
human resources director for the city's public school system. He
(10:25):
drove out to St. Louis that first weekend and eventually stayed,
leaving his job and dedicating himself to the streets, where
he documented what was happening on social media today of protests,
We've been out here every day fighting because we know
what's happening right now is wrong, and we'll continue fighting
the unrest. And Ferguson set off Black Lives Matter protests
(10:49):
all across the country, and Deray became one of the
movements most prominent voices. The thing about the movement is
that it was organic. People just came outside, People saw
his body, and they aim and people stayed and people fought.
And I think that like as much as people want
the end of hierarchy, and that people want this narrative
that like a person started it and did that, and
(11:09):
I think that that narrative is really sexy, but it
is not true. So when we think about Ferguson, it
is Anybody who was in St. Louis will tell you
that this was really organic. There were a set of
people who had outside roles. I had a big platform.
I was like sort of the town crier, but I
was one of many people who had a big role
to play, and like, I don't lose anything by saying
that it is true. And it changed so many of
(11:32):
our lives. And there's this weird sort of like a
way that people act, Like the protesters like emerged out
of the air. You're like, no, there was like a
whole foundation that was set in uh set in St.
Louis and in Ferguson for four hundred days straight with
like no money that if you remember the press was
not on our side then, I mean it wasn't. People
weren't really celebrating activists. Now it's like it feels like
(11:53):
everybody's an activist. Activism is sort of like mainstream. That
was not the I remember like defending everything because the
press of hostile to us. Dray is an activist, author
and host of the podcast Pods Saved the People, and
he traces the work that he does today back to
his early years. I ran for a rep in sixth
(12:15):
grade to be like the sixth grade class rep, and
that like put me on this path where I was like,
I think I want to I think I want to
do this, And because of some student government people, I
found an organization to organize within the city, and like
that changed my life. So I was in student government
from sixth grade to senior in college. I like it
was the most consistent thing I've ever done in my life.
It's where I so to learn what policy was and programming,
(12:37):
and how to be in meetings and with like how
to fight, like you know, a ton of things. Okay,
When I ran for president of my elementary school and
one just by eleven votes, Stephen Russell spread the word
that I only won by eleven votes, I said, people
wonder why I'm always smiling, It's because I'm happy, happy
to go to such a wonderful school. Guess Jamestown is
(13:00):
a wonderful school, and I'd like to keep it that way. Anyway.
It's so weird that I remember that, But I mean,
it's such a great point because getting involved in student government,
it sounds like it really did give you the building
blocks for what later would be your life's calling and
your career. Um you were saying you learned about public policy,
(13:24):
you learned how to conduct yourself and meetings. You said
you learned to fight, and I was like, what, well,
I just learned, you know. It's interesting. It was a
combination of student government and then college, and I was
in student government. I was class president of student body
president at Bowden Um. I learned both how to sort
of like fight institutions and press, but also how to imagine.
That was sort of the gift of boding. At Boden,
(13:45):
I learned what it meant to dream big, like what
it meant to like live in a world where you
can move constraints out of the way, like you could
ask the biggest question, and and those things that helped
me imensely, so like in the work I do now
around policing and incarceration and racial justice, so much of
it like we're telling a story about a world that
has not yet existed, but we believe in. And that
(14:05):
skill is something I learned at Bowden. At Bowden, how
much pushback did you get for dreaming big, for being
a disruptor, for imagining a world that did not yet exist? Yeah,
so it wasn't. I don't even know if I would
call it pushback as much as I would it was
like I had to like help people see them like
(14:25):
we can do this, we can totally do it. They're like,
I don't know. I'm like, but but that's what happens, right,
is that people grow up seeing constraints. That's how you
stay safe. That's how you're secure, is that you're like, Okay,
here's where the limit is, and I'm not gonna pass
the limit. Here's how much money I have. I'm not
gonna dream bigger than that. Here's how much space. Like,
the constraints actually keep people safe. So I never blame
people for starting from a place of constraints. Part of
(14:49):
so much of my work is saying like, Okay, I
totally hear that, but what about this, Like what do
we do this? So at Boden, I think I refined
that so now in the movement stace, so I'm like, oh,
we can totally change the felony theft amounts, so we
can ban on our grades, or we can like starting
from a sense of possibility as an orientation is something
I just like learned how to do and how to
help people take that journey too. Do you think because
(15:11):
the protests now are more diverse and encompass sort of
more people socio economically, ethnically, racially. That that's why it's
been celebrated in a much bigger way than the protests
in Ferguson. No. I think that. I think some of
(15:31):
it was like Ferguson laid the groundwork. It was like
the Ferguson protest changes the language and did nada. I
think that the hard part is that if you remember, after,
it was like a lot of panels, right. It was
like people were like, oh goodness, I didn't know, I
need to learn, and there was a lot of learning.
So it's like a million panels, a million talks, a
million like it was just like a lot of that.
(15:52):
I think by the time came around, people were like
I know, they were like I get it. They were
like okay. And and the hunger I see in is
people trying to figure out what to do. In I
didn't see a lot of people trying to figure out
what to do. I I saw a lot of people
trying to make sense of what was happening, just trying
to understand it. And I don't see that this time.
(16:12):
This time, I see people being like, oh, hey, got
it now, what like what do we do to fix it?
I'm always mindful that a change in conversation is not
a change in people's lives, right that, Like, the conversation
is more mainstream than it's ever been, but the outcomes
are literally the same, Like no change. How much credit
does Black Lives Matter deserve for an increase in student
(16:35):
activism and all kinds of social justice issues? He's when
I think about Black Lives Matter, I think about a movement,
and the same way that when we think about the
Civil Rights movement. It was a broad collection of people,
all fighting for black people in a specific way. And
I think that it is undeniable that if the protest
had not begun in Ferguson Ineen, that there would not
(16:56):
be this level of activism. That I think that there
was something incredible about seeing people standing in the street
that empowered other people to stand in the street and
seeing it online on social media, Like, I think it
was a game change. I think that people understood that
they have power. That's what the best of organizing is, right,
The best of organizing is helping you realize you already
had power. I can't give you power, you had it already.
(17:18):
I can help you use it. I can help you
see it and name it and marry it to policy.
I can do that for you. And I think that
the protests in fourteen did that for a ton of people.
And then I think we just saw it continue and continue.
I think that we saw a sort of a zenith
of it right now and in June, and I think
that it waivers a little bit, and I think there
(17:38):
will see it again. But I think is the beginning
in so many ways. Do you think this kind of
activism translates into voting, because historically many of the young
people who are out on the streets protesting don't turn
out to vote. What is that about? Yeah? I think
some of it is like the messaging right that I
(18:00):
think that we can't shame people into voting. I think
that's just a bad strategy. So I think I'm I'm
happy to shame people. I'm happy to do anything that
gets them to vote. To ray, Yeah, I just don't
I think that what we've seen those that it doesn't
get them to vote. I think it doesn't get young people.
I don't know if it might get older people, it
doesn't get young people. So saying things like if you
care about the country, your vote and I and I
(18:20):
say that it's somebody who like the first person ever
permanently banned from Twitter was banned for raising money to
try and get me killed. I've been dragged out of
a police department by my ankles. My phone has been hacked.
I get all these things happened to me. And I voted.
I voted every time. I didn't miss a vote. That like,
voting wasn't the thing that made America kind to me.
It wasn't. I also don't expect there to be one
(18:42):
thing to do it. Voting is like one of the
tools and the tool kit. I think that there's a
way for people who are willing to put their life
from the line, especially in thisen to now moment, where
when you tell them like if you care your vote,
people like if I care, if I care, I put
my life on the line. I did that right. So
I think that some of it is like a nuance
with which we tell people that it's not this either or.
(19:02):
It's not like vote or hate the country or like
vote or do it is vote and do all the
other things right, that this is not like an either
or moment. Early evidence from the primaries Ray suggests the
youth voter turnout is going to be low again on
Super Tuesday, fewer than one in five young people cast
(19:23):
their ballots. So why the why the disconnect? Yeah, I
think we'll see, you know. I think COVID sort of
a weird moment, but I think a lot of young
people will vote. I think one of the things that
the right does really well is that the right is
always talking directly to voters, not to the elite, not
to like this academic class. I think that the left
(19:44):
is always talking to the elites. It is always talking
like the MSNBC college degreed crowd, uh and only talking
to like voters in their living rooms in the final moment.
So in this last couple of days, I've been on
a lot of outreach to black men who are oddly
leaning Trump, and it's not hard to convert them. Board
(20:04):
I realized it's like nobody's ever talked to them that
like people just assume. One of the things that we
learned right, which is interesting, is that racism alone is
not a disqualifier for black men for Trump, which is interesting.
And the reason it's not is what they would say
is that like the whole systems racist, So like, okay,
he's like another racist person in a racist system. The
impact of racism is actually the disqualifier. So I'm like,
(20:27):
did you not see the kids in the cages? They're
like what kids in? Right? Like they literally there's like
a set of people who actually don't know the stuff
that he's done. So part of it is like how
do we actually tell stories that like re Imfort, they
hear him and they watch Fox sometimes, but they actually
don't see what he has done. So, like it has
been a lot of storytelling. And if there's anything that
I understand more intimately than I did in S is
(20:48):
like the way and misinformation moves and the way that
these narratives become spun so that we get people on
our side who actually repeating, like top cop repeating all
this stuff that is like not true, but they've heard
of a million times. I've learned that it's actually not
enough to be right, that like you actually have to
be a good storyteller and be right. If you have
(21:09):
to do a P. S A to get young people
to vote, what would it say? Yeah, so I would
say that, like the vote is three things. The vote
is a power to hire fire in shape, and we
want to make sure that you use all the power
you have right that that's a part of this game.
That we want to make sure that you choose the
right people, get rid of the bad people, and that
your values are represented in the panopoly of people, so
(21:31):
that we can shape an agenda that values you and
will take care of you. The second is that when
you think about politics, I've heard a lot of people
say that, you know, I don't do politics, and politics
is always doing you. That the judge who decided on
those sentences was probably elected. That the sheriff who enforced
that eviction was probably elected. That the police chief is
reporting to a person who is elected. That the laws
(21:52):
that people are operating under like somebody chose them, that
people who we chose. I'm making these choices that shape
our lives, and we have responsibility to make sure those
are good people. And the third thing is that this
is never either or that, like, this is about doing
this one thing right now, but holding people to the
fire as we keep going, and hopefully you'll be one
(22:14):
of the people that we vote for one day, so
we won't have to say, like I'm disappointed in this person,
disappointed this person, I will actually just already have the
people who represent so much of what we believe in.
Tyler Okayk is the nineteen year old voting rights activists.
We interviewed him for this podcast and he said it's
a symptom of what it looks like when young people
finally have candidates that they can believe in and get behind,
(22:37):
and he was citing people like aoc ilhant Omar, Katie
Porter and other progressive candidates. Do you think that's what
is going to motivate young people to get out there
and vote when they have candidates they can really believe in? Absolutely.
I think that some of it is, like, you know,
people want to see that their values are clearly represented
(22:58):
and not have to search for them, and I think
that's hard for a lot of people. I think that, like,
there are a lot of people who are like, you know,
the right is trying to kill me, but like I
don't really like the left. People like they're like lukewarm.
But you know, it is there are so many people
that look like career politicians who like they've been in
these roles for thirty years, they've been in the roles
for fifty you know, they've represented the district since I
(23:19):
was born, And people are tired of that, you know,
and they're certainly tired of it when like their community
hasn't gotten better in any way that they can feel.
And I think that we need to respond. That That's
why AOC and Omar and Katie porter All. I think
that that's why Corey Bush, that's why some of the
new members in Congress resonate with people, because they're at
least like, you know what, you might not have done
any of this political stuff before, but at least I
(23:41):
know you've got my values with you, like, I don't
have to question that as someone who knows the power
of social media very well. Should our election process be
more online focused in your view? No, I think that
we should just make a voting easier, right, it should
be a holiday. I think that's easy. I think that
people should be able to register same day, Like we
(24:02):
should just take all the burden off a voting. Everybody
should be able to get a mail in ballet without
without a reason, like all of that should just be easier. That. Yeah,
I don't so, I don't. I'm not convinced that the
Internet is secure enough right now for this, but definitely
we need to make it easier when we come back.
How use activists then and now keep the fight going.
(24:36):
I've always felt like I'm knocking on the doors of power,
like I'm shaking and rattling the knob and I'm begging
to be involved again. Here's Tyler okayka. But I think
that that has always been the nature of this work,
and I've always come to it with understanding that this
is what we do for our communities, because the violence
of poverty, the violence of police violence, the violence of
climate change are all things that I prefer not to
(24:58):
feel and not to impart on. Folks. The most important
thing about young people, it's not that they're in the
street once again Courtland Cox, veteran of the Student Non
Violent Coordinating Committee or SNICK as it's known. It is
that they have seen something and they've said, I am
not gonna tolerate this injustice anymore. Now. It's gonna take
(25:21):
them on a path, and it's taken me on the
path over sixty years. It is them getting on the
path that's the inspiration. The most humbling thing that I've
found in my life. I'm now seventy nine years old.
You know, the most important thing is that we did
(25:43):
things that are necessary, but we will never do things
that will be sufficient. And I tell young people that
because they have to understand that this is a very
long struggle. And you need these young people because they
begin to imagine the world that is different. Whether they're
(26:05):
talking about environmental stuff or whether they're talking about guns,
or whether they're talking about race. They're able to see
with their minds and create a different reality that benefits us.
All I mean, that's to me is the aspiring piece.
(26:29):
If you do nothing, nothing changes for the better. Documentary
filmmaker Judy Richardson is another veteran of Snick. She co
produced the Landmark PBS series Eyes on the Prize, which
documents the history of the civil rights movement. We were
interviewing A. D. Nixon, who was one of the major
(26:50):
folks leaders in the Montgomery Bus boy cut, and I
remember we were interviewing him and at some point he said,
you know, I've been working for for this stuff all
my life. He said it, and I always figured I
was doing it for the folks who came behind me.
But then I said, you know, I want to enjoy
some of this stuff myself. Okay, but that's what you
got from all the folks who were older than us.
There was always a sense that they might never see
(27:13):
the change that they were working for, but that if
they did nothing, nothing would change for all the folks
who came behind, or wouldn't change for the better. So
I think part of it is is having been surrounded
by those kinds of folks who had seen neighbors killed
for just trying trying to register, not even voting, for
trying to register to vote. So they're used to all
(27:36):
of these inequalities, have to fight tooth and nail just
to get a little bit out, but they don't stop.
That's what's amazing. And so I think part of the
reason that all of us are still going um, and
I often say, you know what's amazing to me is
that because we were so young when we started. I
don't know any of us who were sitting around, you know,
(27:57):
didn't baby booties. We're not doing that. You know. Now
we may be doing that too, I shouldn't say that,
but that's not all we're doing. You know that we
are still I am surrounded by people who are my age,
who are in our seventies, some in our early eighties,
you know, who are still working for justice. We haven't stopped.
That's that's amazing to be and that's that's the energy
(28:21):
that allows us to enjoy and reap the benefits of
what all of that work did, right, the fact that
I can vote freely, and now my fight is not
making sure that African American people have the most basic
right of a citizen, but expanding it to young people
and expanding it to more people, and um, it also
allows me to do it with much less at stake.
(28:43):
And that's that's what we That's what I hope to
have contributed to for future generations, moving us a little
bit closer towards the world that we want to see.
There will be a moment where gen Z needs to
defer to the generation below us. There's a visionary power
that young people will hold, and that is something that
we need to continue to follow. Young people, not a
(29:05):
certain generation, are the moral compass of the country. And
I think right now this is our moment, and we're
going to continue to develop our ideas and I think
we will take our world further than than any other
generation has. But I hope that the generation that comes
after us takes us even further than how far we've gone.
And that's that's the idea I like to adopt about
movements and young people's role in it, and also the
(29:27):
potential that a generation brings to the table. Next week
on Turnout, this is going to be a fraud like
you've never seen. A conversation with the top Republican election
lawyer on those baseless voter fraud claims. Where's the evidence?
(29:50):
I think there's a lot of evidence, but will provide
you with some. Okay, Benjamin Ginsburg's blunt rebuke, that's next week. Okay, listeners,
The election is officially around the corner. Can you believe it?
Make sure you have a plan to vote. If you
aren't one of the tens of millions who have already
done so, go to vote dot org to find out
(30:11):
election week details in your state, and if you'd like
to learn more about how to empower young people, check
out Rock the Vote dot org, Empower California dot org. And,
as always, to stay on top of all my election coverage,
find me on social media or subscribe to my morning
newsletter wake Up Call. You can sign up at Katie
(30:31):
correct dot com. Turnout is a production of I Heartmedia
and Katie Curric Media. The executive Producers are Katie Curriic
and Courtney Littz. Supervising producers Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements,
Eliza costUS and Emily Pento. Editing by Derrick Clements and
Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derrick Clements. Our researcher is Gabriel
(30:55):
Loser and special thanks to my right hand woman Adriana Fasio.
You can follow me at all my election coverage at
Katie Currect. Meanwhile, yes, I'm Katie Currect. Thanks so much
for listening everyone. We'll see you next time.
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