November 17, 2020 • 25 mins
All eyes are on Georgia this week as it wraps up its manual recount of nearly 5 million ballots. On Friday, November 13, when the recount began, several news outlets had declared Joe Biden the state’s winner. If that still holds when the recount is complete, Biden will be the first Democratic presidential candidate to win Georgia since 1992. If that weren’t enough, control of the Senate now hinges on two critical Georgia runoff elections, which will happen in early January 2021. At the center of this national political storm is Georgia’s Republican Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. On this episode of Turnout with Katie Couric, an interview with the secretary, who gives us a peek behind the recount curtain, and talks about the high-pressure stakes of being the Republican in charge of President Trump’s recount: tweets, calls for resignation, and, yes, even death threats. For Brad Raffensperger, it’s all in a day’s work.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, It's Katie Curic. And yet Georgia seems to
be on everyone's mind these days, especially as it wraps
up it's manual recount of nearly five million ballots. On
Friday November, when the recount began, several news outlets had
declared Joe Biden the state's winner. Now, if that still
(00:23):
holds when the recount is complete, Joe Biden will be
the first Democratic presidential candidate to win Georgia since If
that weren't enough, control of the Senate now hinges on
two critical Georgia runoff elections, which will happen in January.
At the center of this national political storm is Georgia's
(00:45):
Republican Secretary of State Brad Raefensburger. Hi, Brad, and I
had a chance to speak Monday evening, So listen and enjoy.
What has it been like for you to be at
the epicenter of national media attention? I mean, all eyes
(01:07):
are on Georgia. Is that stressing you out? Brat? Oh?
But when you look at two years ago when Stacy
Abrahams ran against Governor Kemp, he prevailed with the fifty
three thousand margin, and so Georgia is more competitive. I
thought as a Republican it was going to go the
other way, and right now it doesn't look like it's
going to I think some of that is us. President
(01:30):
Biden had a very robust absolute ballot campaign and President
Trump said, don't vote absentee, come out and vote the
day of the election. And only less than a million
people showed up on election day. If at one point
three one point four million people would have shown up, uh,
he would have just one big time in Georgia. But
why do you think he was so opposed to, in
(01:51):
the midst of a national global pandemic in fact, to
encourage his supporters to vote by mail. In retrospect, wasn't
that a massive mistake and miscalculation. Well, I think President
Trump was looking at some of the other states where
they just send out a live ballot and and how
do you really identify those people? And that's what some
(02:13):
people did. But in Georgia, we followed the law and
what that was is that you had your request an
absolute ballots. So we have done that. We followed the
state law. In fact, over this year because of some
of the issues you could have with absolutely, we even
strengthened the signature match. For the first time, we have
photo I D. If you used our online portal, then
(02:35):
you require photo ID and you seamlessly to your driver's license,
so we knew it was you that was applying for
the absolute ballot. Were there are other things for people
who may not be familiar with how things are done
in Georgia. Were there are other things that you all
put in place to assure the integrity of mail in ballots. Well,
(02:56):
that was probably the number one thing, is making sure
we have signature match with the paper application signature match,
you know, when the ballot came back, and then with
the online portal. But then we also made it more
user friendly from that standpoint. If you had an absolute ballot,
we had an app called Ballot Tracks, so you can
see where your ballot was in the process. And then
we understood that wait times were one of the biggest issues,
(03:18):
and we wanted to keep all options open sixteen days
of early voting, day of election, and so we helped
work on making sure you can securely and safely moved
through those lines during election day, and we did that.
We had an average weight time on election day two minutes,
you know. During the lead up to the election a
lot of people were concerned of people. Democrats were concerned
(03:42):
that as a Republican Secretary of State, you know, they
were on the lookout for any involvement in voter suppression.
Now you are kind of the target of your own party. Well,
we're the referee, and what our job is the make
sure we walk that line of integrity, because I like
(04:02):
integrity still matters. Uh, And it's up to the candidates
to run their races. We have the laws in place,
we enforced the laws. We want to make sure that
we have secure voting. As soon as I became elected.
As soon as office, we worked on passing a bill
that outlawed ballot harvesting. That ballot harvesting to us, I
don't think it's secure, it's wrong, and so we outlawed it.
(04:24):
So we want to make sure that voters understood that.
We also made sure as soon as I became Secretary
of State that we can join ERIC, which is the
Electronic Registration Information Center. It's it's multi state, about thirties
plus states. Now I'm part of it. So if you
live in Georgia moved to Texas, Texas, will let us
know that you registered in Texas? What that does is
(04:45):
allow us to begin the process of taking off the
voter rolls. We want to make sure our voter roles
are clean. Let's talk about the hand recount and the
audit that you have ordered. Can you explain the recount
process for us? And if you expect this process to
change the results in any significant way, Well, what we're
(05:08):
doing is a wrisk lamenting audit, and state law requires
us to do a minimum confidence level. That means we'd
have to pull out one point five million ballots. If
we did confidence level, that'd be two and a half
million ballots. You start pulling that many ballots out of
five million, randomly, be minds with us count all five million.
(05:28):
So we decided to do that. But instead of scanning
those through the machines again, we said, let's go ahead
and can't count these by hand because some of these
people are questioning are these machines accurate? Did that QR
codes somehow change something? So everyone is looking at these ballots.
Who did you want for president? Did you want Trump?
Biden or Joe Jurgenson? Either one? And it goes in
(05:48):
three piles and then you count them by hand. And
that's what we've done to secure and make sure that
you know exactly what it is. Now. Do we have
some changes well today and Floyd County, what we found
in the part of the audit process, there's about ballots
that were counted, but they were not uploaded properly at
the county level. It was a poll worker mistake, not
a machine mistake. But regardless, it appears at a President
(06:10):
Trump picked up about eight hundred votes. So now we'll
add that to the total. But in some of these
other counties, Uh, it's not changed one vote at all,
and so it's been very very close other than this
kind of kind of poll worker air. But that's why
you do an audit. That's why people audit books that
they're looking for any mistakes, because we want to give
voters ad percent confidence. We know half the people are
(06:34):
not going to be placed with this result and then
the other path are going to be a static. We
get that, and I think I may be the one
that's not happy with the respults, but we're gonna enda
they have a hundred percent confidence. And when will that
audit be complete. We've tasked them to be done by
the eight because we have to certify these elections. This
election on then if it is within a half percent,
(06:58):
the candidate that has gotten the or total can say
I would like a hundred percent recount. That will grab
up all those ballots and we'll run them through the
scanners and we'll do the same thing again because that
is their right and will follow state law. And as
far as you can tell to this point, will it
be within that percentage point? Well, it is right now
within that half percentage point, So the losing candidate could
(07:20):
ask for another total. We have five million ballots, it's
a fifty vote delta, and so we'll be well within
that margin. Okay. And do you expect the Trump campaign
to ask for a full recount. Oh, that is their decision,
but state law allows for it and the state, uh
state will pay and fund that for all the counties
to do that. Trump supporter and an attorney that I
(07:43):
happen to know name Lynn Would, has alleged in a
federal lawsuit which was filed Friday, that absentee ballots signature
review procedures violate the US Constitution. The lawsuit takes issue
with the settlement this spring between you and the Democratic
Party of Georgia, which required election workers to consult with
(08:04):
two of their peers before rejecting absentee ballots because of
possible mismatch signatures, and the suit alleges that change needed
approval from the Georgia General Assembly. While we're really getting
into the weeds here, but can you give us your
perspective on this lawsuit. It's provolost, it's not going to
(08:25):
go anywhere because in the end of the day, what
were we kept signature match And it really is if
you did not think it matched, then you could have
another set of eyes look at it. But if the
other I set of I say it doesn't match, it
doesn't match, and then you can have the opportunity to
come down and cure your ballot. And then you can say, no,
my signatures change because I broke my arm, whatever reason
(08:48):
that is. But you have signature cure and so, uh,
it's really not changing anything. And we kept signature match.
You have to have signature match when you do your
application of paperlift application, and you also do signature match
when you send the ballots in. So it's really there
will be three ballots on our three signatures on file,
the original you've registered, then the application and then with
(09:12):
the ballot and so you look at all three, line
them up and see is this the same person? So
you think Lynnwood is barking up the wrong tree. I
don't know what tree is barking up, but I'm sure
he's just earing a good lawyer's feed for you don't
following a frivolous lawsuit. But it's not gonna go anywhere.
That dog won't hunt. Yes, Dan rather often said Senators
left Ler and Perdue, who are both candidates in the
(09:36):
Senate runoff, released a statement accusing you of having failed
the people of Georgia and asking you to step down immediately.
What was your response to that, Well, I told him
I'm not going anywhere. And all I would really tell
them is you boast there in competitive races, and you
best get at it and quit worrying about, you know,
(09:56):
this election, because you've got a big runoff election, and
as Republican, you know, I want to see our Republicans prevailed.
At the end of the day. I'm gonna walk that
line of integrity and they're gonna win if they win, honestly,
and everyone's gonna know that they want with an artist vote,
and that's what I'm called to do as Secretary of State.
(10:18):
We're gonna take a short break. We'll be right back
now back to my interview with Georgia's Secretary of State
Brad Raethinsburger. Don't you feel like Secretary of State, if
(10:39):
you're really overseeing election, shouldn't it be a nonpartisan position?
It sounds nutty to me, like, and I'm you know,
whether it's Democrat or Republican, it's automatically going to feel um,
not necessarily fair and impartial if we've got a Republican
running things, or if we have a Democrat want running things.
(11:02):
What what I mean? It sounds nutty to me. Well,
but we have a hundred and fifty nine counties, and
I know that when we get some of our rural
counties that voted eighty percent for President Trump, that those
elected election directors may actually then also may have voted
for President Trump. But then you get into some of
the urban areas and it goes the other way. They
may have voted for Vice President Biden. But at the
(11:25):
end of the day, they set aside their partisan you know, leanings,
and they run the election. It's about process, and that's
really what it gets down to, is you run the process.
You do the drill and the results will be the
results based on the candidate get his people out. And
so as long as we have personal integrity, it works. Yeah,
I guess. I mean, you know, I believe brings. Everyone
(11:50):
has partisanship and biases, and so at the end of
the day, we set that aside and we follow what
is the law say? What do the rules say? And
that's what we do. What did I and see Graham
say to you, Secretary of st Rappensburger when he called
you on Friday? I thought when he called, originally it
was really to talk about two runoffs we have for
the U. S. Senate seats, since he's influential in that area.
(12:14):
But he asked if the Ashleutly ballots can be matched
back to the envelope. So I explained how it works
in Georgia that the signature is matched when you make
your ballot application, and then the signature has matched again
when the when the ballot comes back, so there's two
signature checks there. But once that happens, then the ballot
is separated from the envelope and then you can't match
(12:34):
them back. But then I felt that he implied that
for us to audit the envelopes and throw out ballots
of counties who had the highest frequency era of signatures,
and I said, you know, mentioned that that's not something
we can do, and that's really where we left it.
I told him I talked to my general counsel and
(12:54):
would circle back, and there was no need to circle
back because then President Trump put out his tweet about
something along those lines, and it just appeared that they
were already coordinating their campaign. And subsequent to that, I
understand there's a lawsuit in Michigan really along those lines,
and this attorney Lynnwood has fouled a lawsuit. Uh, you
(13:17):
know a lot about the absolitute bout process which you
were going to defend. Did you feel the Republican Party
Lindsay Graham in particular, was exerting undue pressure on you
and actually trying to find a way to toss legally
cast ballots out of the system. I don't know. It
(13:38):
wasn't undo because I said no. So at the end
of the day, we are following our process. But the
fact that he called you and asked you this, Brad,
did you feel it was inappropriate? Yeah? I did, and
that's why I didn't call him back. I talked to
counsel UH, and we just kind of moved off. Unfortunately,
had a couple of my staff members on the call
(13:59):
because I noticed I understand everything that we do will
be put under a Microsoft scope. And at the end
of the day, no matter how this election falls, I
want voters to have comment in the accuracy of the election.
And as a Republican, I know I'm going to probably
be disappointed that something is not going to happen during
this audit because as the numbers come in, it's just
(14:19):
really substantiating that the vote was accurately counted on the
election night, but the winner. That's how it appears right now.
We had em Floyd County. They never took out the
memory stick in one of the machines used for early voting,
and that added about votes, which gave President Trump eight
(14:40):
hundred more. But when you're when you're short fourteen thousand votes,
it doesn't get you there. Maybe there's another county that
also did something dumb and UH, and we'll we take
them out to the woodshed later, but right now we're
just working on our process of buttoning it up. But
I don't think that will get them where they need
to be. Senator Graham had a different recollection of your
con versation. He said that if you found it threatening,
(15:03):
you quote have a problem. What's your response? Uh, well, Uh,
I just haven't had a different impression, And I guess
I just really want to make sure that I mind
all my ps, all my cues, so that we can
run this election, you know, right down, you know the
center line, you know, with integrity, and so that both
sides know this is how the results came out. I
(15:26):
understand I've been saying this for six months, Katie, that
half the people will be happy after people we said yes,
the other half was very very sad and they didn't
admit that how did President Trump win? Well, now was
going to be my side saying how did that happen?
And I get that. But in Georgia, people won't be
(15:47):
out of question results. There's sporting n other states, and
all the secretaries that stayed over there coin do run
their elections. My job is Georgia and that's what I'm
focused on, so my Georgians have confidence. Senator Graham also
insists that he called you on his own accord and
it wasn't prompted by the Trump campaign. Do you believe him. Well,
(16:07):
I'll take him at his word. Um, I know he's
a Republican, and so am I. And he may have
been just concerned, and so who am I. I don't
know what was in his mind and all that. That's
that's just me guess. And I just didn't like to
deal with facts. I'm an engineer, and if I deal
with facts in a secretary of State, that's gonna be
a whole lot better. At the end of the day,
when we talked to our voters and talked to both
(16:29):
sides of the aisle, Democrats have called for an ethics
investigation looking into this. Do you think they're justified? Well,
that's Washington politics, and I'm gonna tend to what we
do here in Georgia. I love Georgia, and uh, this
is where my home is, and Secretary of State is
where my focus is. We'll be back with Brad Raethlisberger
(16:52):
right after this. You've been heralded as a nonpartisan leader
throughout all of this. Knowing what you know now, Brad,
(17:13):
when you think back to Brian Kemp's two thousand eighteen
run for governor, should he have been running while serving
as Secretary of State and overseeing the election process. Well,
when I run for re election, I'm not going to
resign for those few months as I run, so I'll
still I'll be in office. And that has typically happened
(17:35):
people throughout those charges. But I hope that what they'll
see at the end of the day that I will
not be putting my thumb on the scale. So when
I run for re election, if I lose, I'll lose honestly,
and I'll take my loss, you know, and I'll suck
it up and I'll move on. And if I win,
and it'll be what it is. But my point is,
(17:55):
should Brian Kemp have run for governor while simultaneing a
slee serving as Secretary of State and overseeing his own election?
Doesn't that seem like a conflict of interest? It sounds
like it is one, But there's you know, really the
elections are run at the county level. It's a hundred
county for running these elections. What they're doing is we
(18:17):
we have oversight, but then they report those numbers up.
You can't get in your Georgia is too big to
get in your car and drive to all hundred counties
and start stuff in ballots. So it was a fair,
honest election, and Stacy Abrams needs to get over she
lost and she lost barely, and and that wasn't helpful then,
and it wouldn't be helpful now for people to question
what the results are actually are in Georgia. Having said that,
(18:40):
you do credit her with bringing out voters and increasing
turnout significantly in your state. She did two years ago.
It's just that Governor Kemp turned out more this year.
If you look at what happened her team and herself,
they turned out voters. In fact, Senator Purdue had fourteen thousand,
(19:01):
five hundred more votes in the metro region than President
Trump did. And so there's a model going forward that
Republicans need to have a message that resonates with more
people throughout the entire state of Georgia and urban areas
in particular. Yeah, and I think that bit by bit
we can make inroads there. And I think that as
we diversify and make our party really the party of
(19:25):
achievement and opportunity, we can do that. I go back
to Roma Reagan days. He was my hero, and I
think he had a great message. You have been called
the most hated man and the Republican Party and it's
actually serious because you and your wife have have been
receiving death threats. Are you frustrated that your party can't
(19:45):
take the partisanship out of the process. I'm really disappointed that, uh,
we have people, uh from our side of the aisle
that would send my wife death threats. Uh. You know,
you I always think that we're if we're gonna do
cops and robberts, you know, you know, or we're playing
the wild West show where the guys with the white
cowboy hats and the other ones, you know, the other
(20:07):
sides more with the black cowboy hats. Someone and Democrats
to do the same with us, right verse. And when
your own team, you know, you realize that you've got
people desperados with the with the black hats, it's disappointing.
I like, I thought we were above that, but obviously
we're not. And that's that's what is disappointing. We need
to realize that the election results have been accurately counted.
(20:28):
It's a hundred fifty nine counties and it really just
shows you where we are as a as a state.
The problem is when you live in your bubble of
a Trump you know district, you don't understand how it happens,
but districts change over time, and that's why we need
to make sure that we always, you know, build on
our message and make sure that we're reaching out to
voters before we go. It seems to me that one
(20:51):
thing Americans probably agree on is that there probably need
to be some reform, some some I know as state
by state, and even if George is going doing a
good job, when you look at the big picture, Brad,
what reforms would you institute to make make voting easier
(21:12):
and and and more accessible for all Americans? I think
for US Georgia already we have sixteen days of early voting,
we have election day voting, and we have no excuse
absolute voting. But I think that we really need to
look at the guard rails for absolute so you don't
have these questions, so you really can be certain. We
added that portal with photo I P. It really gives
(21:35):
people confidence you if you're using it, they're really checking
that it is me. That's a good thing, but other
other people that know that you're using it, and then
I think also being able to join what is talked
about Eric, so when you move different states, we can
update the voter roles with objective measures. When we just
take people off without those objective measures, it seems very subjective,
(21:59):
and that's what creates distrust. So we keep it more
fact based, objective based. I think that's a good thing.
I'm an engineer, so I think that way. I think
at the end of the day, we need to get
some more engineers as secretaries of state and most politicians.
And what about like claims that dead people are voting
or people are getting multiple ballots. Um. When you hear
(22:20):
those anecdotally, I think it sometimes undermines trust in the system.
Are there measures and guard rails, as you would say,
in place that even if that happens, those votes are
not necessarily counted. Well, when the Republicans had the State
House for two years and Doug Colums did nothing the
one thing he should have done because we've hit uh
(22:42):
headwinds with federal laws, but they don't let us update
the voter rules ninety days out. But here's why it's
so important. With seven point six million registered voters in
Georgia and nationwide statistics say eleven move every year. That
means that eighth Georgians are moving every year. Have to
be moving within the state, within the county, but the
other half to be moving to other states ninety days out.
(23:05):
That's two people that have votd in ninety days. It's
it's an awesome number. Like think, you know, we're so mobile,
but if you can't update it, how do you keep
up with your list that you could be off by
up to a hundred thousand and a half of those
are moved out of state, and so those are things
that need to be addressed, that you have accurate roles
so people aren't voting in two different states, and then
also making sure we keep up with the death records
(23:29):
and other situations. And that's why ERIC is is very objective.
It's Democrat Republican states, so it's multi state. It was
really headed up by fellow named David Becker. You should
get him on sometimes. He's with the Center of Election
Innovation and Research, and he's done a really good job
helping bringing both sides together to form ERIC because it's
(23:50):
like Ronald Reagan said, trust but verify, and so sometimes
there's not that trust, so we have to verify and
I think that's a good thing. And ERIC again stands
for elector Chronic Registration Information Center, and there's a website
called Eric States dot Org. Alright, well, Georgia's Secretary State,
Brad Rathinsburger, thank you very very much for talking with us.
(24:12):
Thanks really appreciate it. Good luck with everything, Brad. Thanks.
Turnout is a production of I Heart Media and Katie
Correct Media. The executive producers are Katie Curic and Courtney Littz.
Supervising producers Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Eliza Costas
(24:32):
and Emily Pento. Editing by Derreck Clements and Lauren Hansen,
mixing by Derrick Clements. Our researcher is Gabriel Loser and
special thanks to my right hand woman, Adriana Fasio. You
can follow me in all my election coverage at Katie Currek. Meanwhile, yes,
I'm Katie Curic. Thanks so much for listening everyone. We'll
(24:55):
see you next time. We got to bed the d
w B Tay Park
Hi, everyone, It's Katie Curic. And yet Georgia seems to
be on everyone's mind these days, especially as it wraps
up it's manual recount of nearly five million ballots. On
Friday November, when the recount began, several news outlets had
declared Joe Biden the state's winner. Now, if that still
(00:23):
holds when the recount is complete, Joe Biden will be
the first Democratic presidential candidate to win Georgia since If
that weren't enough, control of the Senate now hinges on
two critical Georgia runoff elections, which will happen in January.
At the center of this national political storm is Georgia's
(00:45):
Republican Secretary of State Brad Raefensburger. Hi, Brad, and I
had a chance to speak Monday evening, So listen and enjoy.
What has it been like for you to be at
the epicenter of national media attention? I mean, all eyes
(01:07):
are on Georgia. Is that stressing you out? Brat? Oh?
But when you look at two years ago when Stacy
Abrahams ran against Governor Kemp, he prevailed with the fifty
three thousand margin, and so Georgia is more competitive. I
thought as a Republican it was going to go the
other way, and right now it doesn't look like it's
going to I think some of that is us. President
(01:30):
Biden had a very robust absolute ballot campaign and President
Trump said, don't vote absentee, come out and vote the
day of the election. And only less than a million
people showed up on election day. If at one point
three one point four million people would have shown up, uh,
he would have just one big time in Georgia. But
why do you think he was so opposed to, in
(01:51):
the midst of a national global pandemic in fact, to
encourage his supporters to vote by mail. In retrospect, wasn't
that a massive mistake and miscalculation. Well, I think President
Trump was looking at some of the other states where
they just send out a live ballot and and how
do you really identify those people? And that's what some
(02:13):
people did. But in Georgia, we followed the law and
what that was is that you had your request an
absolute ballots. So we have done that. We followed the
state law. In fact, over this year because of some
of the issues you could have with absolutely, we even
strengthened the signature match. For the first time, we have
photo I D. If you used our online portal, then
(02:35):
you require photo ID and you seamlessly to your driver's license,
so we knew it was you that was applying for
the absolute ballot. Were there are other things for people
who may not be familiar with how things are done
in Georgia. Were there are other things that you all
put in place to assure the integrity of mail in ballots. Well,
(02:56):
that was probably the number one thing, is making sure
we have signature match with the paper application signature match,
you know, when the ballot came back, and then with
the online portal. But then we also made it more
user friendly from that standpoint. If you had an absolute ballot,
we had an app called Ballot Tracks, so you can
see where your ballot was in the process. And then
we understood that wait times were one of the biggest issues,
(03:18):
and we wanted to keep all options open sixteen days
of early voting, day of election, and so we helped
work on making sure you can securely and safely moved
through those lines during election day, and we did that.
We had an average weight time on election day two minutes,
you know. During the lead up to the election a
lot of people were concerned of people. Democrats were concerned
(03:42):
that as a Republican Secretary of State, you know, they
were on the lookout for any involvement in voter suppression.
Now you are kind of the target of your own party. Well,
we're the referee, and what our job is the make
sure we walk that line of integrity, because I like
(04:02):
integrity still matters. Uh, And it's up to the candidates
to run their races. We have the laws in place,
we enforced the laws. We want to make sure that
we have secure voting. As soon as I became elected.
As soon as office, we worked on passing a bill
that outlawed ballot harvesting. That ballot harvesting to us, I
don't think it's secure, it's wrong, and so we outlawed it.
(04:24):
So we want to make sure that voters understood that.
We also made sure as soon as I became Secretary
of State that we can join ERIC, which is the
Electronic Registration Information Center. It's it's multi state, about thirties
plus states. Now I'm part of it. So if you
live in Georgia moved to Texas, Texas, will let us
know that you registered in Texas? What that does is
(04:45):
allow us to begin the process of taking off the
voter rolls. We want to make sure our voter roles
are clean. Let's talk about the hand recount and the
audit that you have ordered. Can you explain the recount
process for us? And if you expect this process to
change the results in any significant way, Well, what we're
(05:08):
doing is a wrisk lamenting audit, and state law requires
us to do a minimum confidence level. That means we'd
have to pull out one point five million ballots. If
we did confidence level, that'd be two and a half
million ballots. You start pulling that many ballots out of
five million, randomly, be minds with us count all five million.
(05:28):
So we decided to do that. But instead of scanning
those through the machines again, we said, let's go ahead
and can't count these by hand because some of these
people are questioning are these machines accurate? Did that QR
codes somehow change something? So everyone is looking at these ballots.
Who did you want for president? Did you want Trump?
Biden or Joe Jurgenson? Either one? And it goes in
(05:48):
three piles and then you count them by hand. And
that's what we've done to secure and make sure that
you know exactly what it is. Now. Do we have
some changes well today and Floyd County, what we found
in the part of the audit process, there's about ballots
that were counted, but they were not uploaded properly at
the county level. It was a poll worker mistake, not
a machine mistake. But regardless, it appears at a President
(06:10):
Trump picked up about eight hundred votes. So now we'll
add that to the total. But in some of these
other counties, Uh, it's not changed one vote at all,
and so it's been very very close other than this
kind of kind of poll worker air. But that's why
you do an audit. That's why people audit books that
they're looking for any mistakes, because we want to give
voters ad percent confidence. We know half the people are
(06:34):
not going to be placed with this result and then
the other path are going to be a static. We
get that, and I think I may be the one
that's not happy with the respults, but we're gonna enda
they have a hundred percent confidence. And when will that
audit be complete. We've tasked them to be done by
the eight because we have to certify these elections. This
election on then if it is within a half percent,
(06:58):
the candidate that has gotten the or total can say
I would like a hundred percent recount. That will grab
up all those ballots and we'll run them through the
scanners and we'll do the same thing again because that
is their right and will follow state law. And as
far as you can tell to this point, will it
be within that percentage point? Well, it is right now
within that half percentage point, So the losing candidate could
(07:20):
ask for another total. We have five million ballots, it's
a fifty vote delta, and so we'll be well within
that margin. Okay. And do you expect the Trump campaign
to ask for a full recount. Oh, that is their decision,
but state law allows for it and the state, uh
state will pay and fund that for all the counties
to do that. Trump supporter and an attorney that I
(07:43):
happen to know name Lynn Would, has alleged in a
federal lawsuit which was filed Friday, that absentee ballots signature
review procedures violate the US Constitution. The lawsuit takes issue
with the settlement this spring between you and the Democratic
Party of Georgia, which required election workers to consult with
(08:04):
two of their peers before rejecting absentee ballots because of
possible mismatch signatures, and the suit alleges that change needed
approval from the Georgia General Assembly. While we're really getting
into the weeds here, but can you give us your
perspective on this lawsuit. It's provolost, it's not going to
(08:25):
go anywhere because in the end of the day, what
were we kept signature match And it really is if
you did not think it matched, then you could have
another set of eyes look at it. But if the
other I set of I say it doesn't match, it
doesn't match, and then you can have the opportunity to
come down and cure your ballot. And then you can say, no,
my signatures change because I broke my arm, whatever reason
(08:48):
that is. But you have signature cure and so, uh,
it's really not changing anything. And we kept signature match.
You have to have signature match when you do your
application of paperlift application, and you also do signature match
when you send the ballots in. So it's really there
will be three ballots on our three signatures on file,
the original you've registered, then the application and then with
(09:12):
the ballot and so you look at all three, line
them up and see is this the same person? So
you think Lynnwood is barking up the wrong tree. I
don't know what tree is barking up, but I'm sure
he's just earing a good lawyer's feed for you don't
following a frivolous lawsuit. But it's not gonna go anywhere.
That dog won't hunt. Yes, Dan rather often said Senators
left Ler and Perdue, who are both candidates in the
(09:36):
Senate runoff, released a statement accusing you of having failed
the people of Georgia and asking you to step down immediately.
What was your response to that, Well, I told him
I'm not going anywhere. And all I would really tell
them is you boast there in competitive races, and you
best get at it and quit worrying about, you know,
(09:56):
this election, because you've got a big runoff election, and
as Republican, you know, I want to see our Republicans prevailed.
At the end of the day. I'm gonna walk that
line of integrity and they're gonna win if they win, honestly,
and everyone's gonna know that they want with an artist vote,
and that's what I'm called to do as Secretary of State.
(10:18):
We're gonna take a short break. We'll be right back
now back to my interview with Georgia's Secretary of State
Brad Raethinsburger. Don't you feel like Secretary of State, if
(10:39):
you're really overseeing election, shouldn't it be a nonpartisan position?
It sounds nutty to me, like, and I'm you know,
whether it's Democrat or Republican, it's automatically going to feel um,
not necessarily fair and impartial if we've got a Republican
running things, or if we have a Democrat want running things.
(11:02):
What what I mean? It sounds nutty to me. Well,
but we have a hundred and fifty nine counties, and
I know that when we get some of our rural
counties that voted eighty percent for President Trump, that those
elected election directors may actually then also may have voted
for President Trump. But then you get into some of
the urban areas and it goes the other way. They
may have voted for Vice President Biden. But at the
(11:25):
end of the day, they set aside their partisan you know, leanings,
and they run the election. It's about process, and that's
really what it gets down to, is you run the process.
You do the drill and the results will be the
results based on the candidate get his people out. And
so as long as we have personal integrity, it works. Yeah,
I guess. I mean, you know, I believe brings. Everyone
(11:50):
has partisanship and biases, and so at the end of
the day, we set that aside and we follow what
is the law say? What do the rules say? And
that's what we do. What did I and see Graham
say to you, Secretary of st Rappensburger when he called
you on Friday? I thought when he called, originally it
was really to talk about two runoffs we have for
the U. S. Senate seats, since he's influential in that area.
(12:14):
But he asked if the Ashleutly ballots can be matched
back to the envelope. So I explained how it works
in Georgia that the signature is matched when you make
your ballot application, and then the signature has matched again
when the when the ballot comes back, so there's two
signature checks there. But once that happens, then the ballot
is separated from the envelope and then you can't match
(12:34):
them back. But then I felt that he implied that
for us to audit the envelopes and throw out ballots
of counties who had the highest frequency era of signatures,
and I said, you know, mentioned that that's not something
we can do, and that's really where we left it.
I told him I talked to my general counsel and
(12:54):
would circle back, and there was no need to circle
back because then President Trump put out his tweet about
something along those lines, and it just appeared that they
were already coordinating their campaign. And subsequent to that, I
understand there's a lawsuit in Michigan really along those lines,
and this attorney Lynnwood has fouled a lawsuit. Uh, you
(13:17):
know a lot about the absolitute bout process which you
were going to defend. Did you feel the Republican Party
Lindsay Graham in particular, was exerting undue pressure on you
and actually trying to find a way to toss legally
cast ballots out of the system. I don't know. It
(13:38):
wasn't undo because I said no. So at the end
of the day, we are following our process. But the
fact that he called you and asked you this, Brad,
did you feel it was inappropriate? Yeah? I did, and
that's why I didn't call him back. I talked to
counsel UH, and we just kind of moved off. Unfortunately,
had a couple of my staff members on the call
(13:59):
because I noticed I understand everything that we do will
be put under a Microsoft scope. And at the end
of the day, no matter how this election falls, I
want voters to have comment in the accuracy of the election.
And as a Republican, I know I'm going to probably
be disappointed that something is not going to happen during
this audit because as the numbers come in, it's just
(14:19):
really substantiating that the vote was accurately counted on the
election night, but the winner. That's how it appears right now.
We had em Floyd County. They never took out the
memory stick in one of the machines used for early voting,
and that added about votes, which gave President Trump eight
(14:40):
hundred more. But when you're when you're short fourteen thousand votes,
it doesn't get you there. Maybe there's another county that
also did something dumb and UH, and we'll we take
them out to the woodshed later, but right now we're
just working on our process of buttoning it up. But
I don't think that will get them where they need
to be. Senator Graham had a different recollection of your
con versation. He said that if you found it threatening,
(15:03):
you quote have a problem. What's your response? Uh, well, Uh,
I just haven't had a different impression, And I guess
I just really want to make sure that I mind
all my ps, all my cues, so that we can
run this election, you know, right down, you know the
center line, you know, with integrity, and so that both
sides know this is how the results came out. I
(15:26):
understand I've been saying this for six months, Katie, that
half the people will be happy after people we said yes,
the other half was very very sad and they didn't
admit that how did President Trump win? Well, now was
going to be my side saying how did that happen?
And I get that. But in Georgia, people won't be
(15:47):
out of question results. There's sporting n other states, and
all the secretaries that stayed over there coin do run
their elections. My job is Georgia and that's what I'm
focused on, so my Georgians have confidence. Senator Graham also
insists that he called you on his own accord and
it wasn't prompted by the Trump campaign. Do you believe him. Well,
(16:07):
I'll take him at his word. Um, I know he's
a Republican, and so am I. And he may have
been just concerned, and so who am I. I don't
know what was in his mind and all that. That's
that's just me guess. And I just didn't like to
deal with facts. I'm an engineer, and if I deal
with facts in a secretary of State, that's gonna be
a whole lot better. At the end of the day,
when we talked to our voters and talked to both
(16:29):
sides of the aisle, Democrats have called for an ethics
investigation looking into this. Do you think they're justified? Well,
that's Washington politics, and I'm gonna tend to what we
do here in Georgia. I love Georgia, and uh, this
is where my home is, and Secretary of State is
where my focus is. We'll be back with Brad Raethlisberger
(16:52):
right after this. You've been heralded as a nonpartisan leader
throughout all of this. Knowing what you know now, Brad,
(17:13):
when you think back to Brian Kemp's two thousand eighteen
run for governor, should he have been running while serving
as Secretary of State and overseeing the election process. Well,
when I run for re election, I'm not going to
resign for those few months as I run, so I'll
still I'll be in office. And that has typically happened
(17:35):
people throughout those charges. But I hope that what they'll
see at the end of the day that I will
not be putting my thumb on the scale. So when
I run for re election, if I lose, I'll lose honestly,
and I'll take my loss, you know, and I'll suck
it up and I'll move on. And if I win,
and it'll be what it is. But my point is,
(17:55):
should Brian Kemp have run for governor while simultaneing a
slee serving as Secretary of State and overseeing his own election?
Doesn't that seem like a conflict of interest? It sounds
like it is one, But there's you know, really the
elections are run at the county level. It's a hundred
county for running these elections. What they're doing is we
(18:17):
we have oversight, but then they report those numbers up.
You can't get in your Georgia is too big to
get in your car and drive to all hundred counties
and start stuff in ballots. So it was a fair,
honest election, and Stacy Abrams needs to get over she
lost and she lost barely, and and that wasn't helpful then,
and it wouldn't be helpful now for people to question
what the results are actually are in Georgia. Having said that,
(18:40):
you do credit her with bringing out voters and increasing
turnout significantly in your state. She did two years ago.
It's just that Governor Kemp turned out more this year.
If you look at what happened her team and herself,
they turned out voters. In fact, Senator Purdue had fourteen thousand,
(19:01):
five hundred more votes in the metro region than President
Trump did. And so there's a model going forward that
Republicans need to have a message that resonates with more
people throughout the entire state of Georgia and urban areas
in particular. Yeah, and I think that bit by bit
we can make inroads there. And I think that as
we diversify and make our party really the party of
(19:25):
achievement and opportunity, we can do that. I go back
to Roma Reagan days. He was my hero, and I
think he had a great message. You have been called
the most hated man and the Republican Party and it's
actually serious because you and your wife have have been
receiving death threats. Are you frustrated that your party can't
(19:45):
take the partisanship out of the process. I'm really disappointed that, uh,
we have people, uh from our side of the aisle
that would send my wife death threats. Uh. You know,
you I always think that we're if we're gonna do
cops and robberts, you know, you know, or we're playing
the wild West show where the guys with the white
cowboy hats and the other ones, you know, the other
(20:07):
sides more with the black cowboy hats. Someone and Democrats
to do the same with us, right verse. And when
your own team, you know, you realize that you've got
people desperados with the with the black hats, it's disappointing.
I like, I thought we were above that, but obviously
we're not. And that's that's what is disappointing. We need
to realize that the election results have been accurately counted.
(20:28):
It's a hundred fifty nine counties and it really just
shows you where we are as a as a state.
The problem is when you live in your bubble of
a Trump you know district, you don't understand how it happens,
but districts change over time, and that's why we need
to make sure that we always, you know, build on
our message and make sure that we're reaching out to
voters before we go. It seems to me that one
(20:51):
thing Americans probably agree on is that there probably need
to be some reform, some some I know as state
by state, and even if George is going doing a
good job, when you look at the big picture, Brad,
what reforms would you institute to make make voting easier
(21:12):
and and and more accessible for all Americans? I think
for US Georgia already we have sixteen days of early voting,
we have election day voting, and we have no excuse
absolute voting. But I think that we really need to
look at the guard rails for absolute so you don't
have these questions, so you really can be certain. We
added that portal with photo I P. It really gives
(21:35):
people confidence you if you're using it, they're really checking
that it is me. That's a good thing, but other
other people that know that you're using it, and then
I think also being able to join what is talked
about Eric, so when you move different states, we can
update the voter roles with objective measures. When we just
take people off without those objective measures, it seems very subjective,
(21:59):
and that's what creates distrust. So we keep it more
fact based, objective based. I think that's a good thing.
I'm an engineer, so I think that way. I think
at the end of the day, we need to get
some more engineers as secretaries of state and most politicians.
And what about like claims that dead people are voting
or people are getting multiple ballots. Um. When you hear
(22:20):
those anecdotally, I think it sometimes undermines trust in the system.
Are there measures and guard rails, as you would say,
in place that even if that happens, those votes are
not necessarily counted. Well, when the Republicans had the State
House for two years and Doug Colums did nothing the
one thing he should have done because we've hit uh
(22:42):
headwinds with federal laws, but they don't let us update
the voter rules ninety days out. But here's why it's
so important. With seven point six million registered voters in
Georgia and nationwide statistics say eleven move every year. That
means that eighth Georgians are moving every year. Have to
be moving within the state, within the county, but the
other half to be moving to other states ninety days out.
(23:05):
That's two people that have votd in ninety days. It's
it's an awesome number. Like think, you know, we're so mobile,
but if you can't update it, how do you keep
up with your list that you could be off by
up to a hundred thousand and a half of those
are moved out of state, and so those are things
that need to be addressed, that you have accurate roles
so people aren't voting in two different states, and then
also making sure we keep up with the death records
(23:29):
and other situations. And that's why ERIC is is very objective.
It's Democrat Republican states, so it's multi state. It was
really headed up by fellow named David Becker. You should
get him on sometimes. He's with the Center of Election
Innovation and Research, and he's done a really good job
helping bringing both sides together to form ERIC because it's
(23:50):
like Ronald Reagan said, trust but verify, and so sometimes
there's not that trust, so we have to verify and
I think that's a good thing. And ERIC again stands
for elector Chronic Registration Information Center, and there's a website
called Eric States dot Org. Alright, well, Georgia's Secretary State,
Brad Rathinsburger, thank you very very much for talking with us.
(24:12):
Thanks really appreciate it. Good luck with everything, Brad. Thanks.
Turnout is a production of I Heart Media and Katie
Correct Media. The executive producers are Katie Curic and Courtney Littz.
Supervising producers Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Eliza Costas
(24:32):
and Emily Pento. Editing by Derreck Clements and Lauren Hansen,
mixing by Derrick Clements. Our researcher is Gabriel Loser and
special thanks to my right hand woman, Adriana Fasio. You
can follow me in all my election coverage at Katie Currek. Meanwhile, yes,
I'm Katie Curic. Thanks so much for listening everyone. We'll
(24:55):
see you next time. We got to bed the d
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