I spent a lot of time in the kitchen with my grandmother, the matriarch and best cook this side of the Mississippi. She’d be overcome with joy to see me with the amazing culinary artist Carla Hall in discussion on redefining gender roles within relationships. Weaving in perspectives from different generations, this episode is a heartfelt journey through the landmines and love notes of partnerships. We hear from Carla, who's stirred up success as the main breadwinner, and Kim, a young podcaster who adds a modern twist to the protector and provider narrative. As their stories unfold, we trace the contours of love, labor, and money within the intimate dance of marriage.
Balancing a checkbook and a relationship is an art, and in this episode, we paint a picture of how couples navigate the financial arteries of their union. Tugging at the strings of financial independence and intertwined bank accounts, we examine how support and shared responsibilities echo louder than the clinking of coins. We delve into the personal anecdotes that reveal how providing for a household isn't just about the salary one brings home, but also the emotional labor and moral encouragement that fortify the foundations of love and partnership.
Closing the loop on this episode, the conversation turns to the broader spectrum of what each partner contributes to the dynamic of a relationship. From the optimism that lights up a home to the practical management of everyday life, we celebrate the often overlooked assets that keep the wheels of partnership in motion. As we dissect these evolving roles and the communication that oils them, we embrace the beauty of growing together in a world where feminism, financial independence, and personal fulfillment are not just buzzwords but the very pillars of modern love and companionship.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to a Cross Generations where the voices of Black
women unite.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm your host, Tiffany Cross. Tiffany Cross.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Tiffany, We gather a season elder myself as the middle
generation and a vibrant young soul for engaging intergenerational conversations.
Prepared to engage or hear perspectives that no one else
is had.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
You know how we do. We create magic creates magic.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hi, everybody, welcome to another episode of Across Generations, and
I'm so excited to talk about today's topic.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
We're talking about gender roles.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Now.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
For me, despite being raised by a single mother, I
have to say the idea of gender roles came to
me really from my grandmother. I personally had a very young,
hot mama who was not exactly the greet you in
the kitchen and an apron type. She was working and
juggling our struggle, and she was an amazing mother. But
my grandparents were really the traditional black family unit. My
(01:02):
grandmother had my grandfather's dinner on the table when he
got home, and so in many ways I sometimes kind
of believe in the patriarchy. Now obviously not the patriarchy
of systemic oppression. Obviously, But I definitely practice the ideology
of there are things that men do and there are
things that women do.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
That's for me personally.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I'm not mowing the lawn, I'm not pumping gas, I'm
not taking out to trash. Those are things I just
don't want to do. Now, does that mean I'm helpless
and unable to do those things? Obviously not. I do
them all the time. But if I'm in partnership with someone,
there are things that I expect, just as there are
things that he expects from me. And I don't think
there's really any right or wrong way to do this.
(01:41):
So this is not a judgment to anyone who has
a different perspective, and this is not a rallying call
or a to cry of feminism. This is simply my
view in my practice, and any man who wants to
enjoy my company or is in my presence will likely
need to know his role just as I know mine. Now,
when we get into income disparity, children and all of that,
it's a more nuanced conversation, and we're going to get
(02:03):
into some of that right now, So let's get it started.
I'm very very excited to welcome Carla Hall he's turning
sixty this year. She's a professional chef. You guys know her.
She's from the DMV, my neck of the woods, and
she has been married for eighteen years. I should be
so lucky. One day and decided to be the breadwinner
in her marriage to support her husband's dream of becoming
a yoga and meditation instructor. Now, he was previously an
(02:27):
attorney and this was his new passion. And on the
other side, we have Kim. She's twenty six years old.
She's from Houston, now residing in New York City, and
she's the host of the Rich Little Broke Girl podcast
and collective. And she's currently single in dating and she's
interested in traditional relationship with a twist.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So we don't quite know what that means, but let's
kick it off.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
So, Carl, I want to start with you, and I
think we have to define this first. So the definition
of gender roles the webster definitely is the role or
behavior considered to be appropriate to a particular gender, as
determined by prevailing cultural norm. Now, I want to define patriarchy.
That's a system of society or government in which the
(03:12):
father or eldest male is head of the family, and
the scent is reckoned through the male line. Visit Webstern definition,
the matriarch is a social system in which positions dominance
and authority are p merely held by women in a
broader sense that can also extend to moral authority, social privilege,
and control of property. While those definitions can apply in
general English, definitions specific to anthropology and feminism differ in
(03:35):
some respects.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
So because we're starting there, I'm curious that you define
either of those differently.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
You know, I consider myself the culinary matriarch of my
family because I'm the one who cooks and I'm the
one who passes down these recipes for my family. When
I think about when you talked about the gender roles
in terms of being able or I feel that I'm
able to do and want to do things that people
(04:05):
would consider a man would do in my household, and
I believe that you should do the thing that fills
your heart, and sometimes that's not the role that you
would think that a man would play or a female
would play. So I am flexible. I'm a flexitarian when
it comes to food, and apparently I'm a flexitarian when
(04:27):
it comes to a patriarchy. And I think these gender roles.
I'm absolutely flexible because of how I grew.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Up, right, I can understand that.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I think it's interesting though that you are our more
seasoned panelists and you're flexible, while our younger gen Z
panelists here, I don't know that you're as flexible. Com So,
do you disagree with those definitions and how would you
what category would you put yourself in?
Speaker 4 (04:52):
I align with those definitions for sure, And I think
because I align with and I understand that we live
in a patriarch goal society, I'm pretty unwavering at this
stage of my life. I'm twenty six, I'm pretty unwavering
on my position of being traditional with a twist, right,
kind of like a soft girl with sense I can
take care of me. But if I'm going to be
(05:13):
in a partnership at this stage of my life, then
I need you to be able to protect and provide
as well. And so I feel like, given the fact
that you know power is funneled to men quite literally,
I don't think there's anything wrong or there's much I
don't really understand the controversy around women expecting those same
men to be doing better than them, right, and so
(05:36):
When I look at dating and I think about, you know,
a partnership, what would I want Now I'm twenty six,
I'm probably dating someone that's thirty six, thirty four. I
do expect you to be doing better than me, and
I do expect if we're going to be in a
partnership and I'm going to shift my focus to a
relationship that you are able to provide.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
What doesn't that mean able to provide? Provide?
Speaker 4 (05:55):
What exactly provide in terms of financially provide in terms
of just taking care of me so that I can
still achieve the things that I want in my life
as I'm building my foundation. Now, if I'm going to
give my focus to a relationship that I also want
that relationship to aid and be building this foundation.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I have a lot of thoughts and questions about that,
But let me let me just first jump in and
say I do expect men for me personally. I expect
men to do certain things. I don't know if I'd
be comfortable with someone being the sole provider for me,
and I think a part of that reason is Carla,
because I've been the sole provider for myself for so long,
I don't know that I have the trust to hand
(06:41):
over my life and livelihood to another person at this point.
Partnership to me, at this point in my life when
I'm not having children, and you know, we're probably combining
balance seats and that's about it. Partnership in my life
is how can I live in service to this relationship
and how can he live in service to this relationationship?
And that takes on different forms. I'm curious what you
(07:02):
feel about Kim's thoughts.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
You know, it's really interesting because I think back to college.
I mean it's for me. I grew up in a
family with all women. My mother was a single, single
a mother. They were divorced when I was seven. My
grandmother had two daughters. Her two daughters had two daughters.
I saw women do everything in my life. So I
was watching the man come in to fix things for
(07:26):
my mother. I'm like, well, I'm going to watch it.
Why would we pay him again? I can fix it,
you know. So that's where I come from. Even in college,
I would not allow somebody to pay for my meal
if I went out to eat because for me, in
my head, you're taking my power away.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
So I.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Don't owe you anything. I don't owe you a kiss.
I don't owe you anything past a kiss. I owe
you nothing, you know. So for me, it's always been
my power to hold my power. And I think because
of the way I grew up that's why I feel
that way now when it came to in my marriage
the whole money honey, the honey money thing is real
(08:06):
because I didn't get married until I was forty four,
So my money was my money, and so it took
me five years to sort of come into the thing
it's our money because I was so used to providing
for myself.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
The concept of our money. Kim, do you I mean,
do you plan on working?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
And if you do plan on working, like, how what
do you imagine the finances?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Is it our money?
Speaker 4 (08:31):
So I think it's evident historically that you cannot rely
on a man, and so personally, when I say traditional
with the twist, I'm not going to ever put myself
in a position where you know, I have to completely
rely on a man. I sign a bad prenup and
I have to beg a man to buy me a
piece of bread. I'm just not going to do that.
And so I feel like, you know, my money is
(08:54):
my money so that I can invest in building myself
right as I'm now in this relationship, and I'm aging right,
and your money is to provide for the unit. And
so if that looks like taking care of the bills,
because if I'm having children, I'm not working, I'm taking
care of the kids, I'm taking care of the house,
(09:14):
and so I don't think again, I don't think that's
asking for much. I think that's asking for it.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
But you're saying, you're saying in a marriage, Let's say
you're saying the money you earn is your money.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yes, the money is our.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Money for the household, yes. But so to me, that
doesn't say partnership. Though, what are you partnership?
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Because you know, when you're in a marriage, right, especially
if you are having children with someone, I'm giving my life,
my womb, I'm giving my time, my focus, my earning potential,
and so he is able to go out in the
job market, the workforce continue to excel, and now I'm
(09:56):
taking years off to watch the children, right, and so
I need to make sure that I'm protecting myself if
things go awry.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
But what you're saying to me, what it sounds like,
is I am planning on this not working out when
if you're living in service to a partnership, that money
is I am earning this money to build us collectively.
It sounds to me like you're saying, I am earning
this money for me because you've given me children. You're
going to provide stability. And then the second I get
tired of this, at least I have some money in
(10:25):
my pocket to walk away from it.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
No, I don't.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I don't see it like that.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
I see it more so like I am protecting myself
because I understand that fifty percent of marriages and in divorce,
not that anyone goes.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Fifty percent of marriages in a divorce, because the attitudes
like that.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yeah, because you're you're one in a guarantee, You're you're
I think you're going and wanting a guarantee, and I
truly believe that once you think it and you have
that mindset, it will happen. Okay, Yeah, it will happen.
Because you're already setting yourself up to kind of have
the fail safe because you want to guarantee and you
(11:02):
want to protect yourself. You go in. I mean, but
is a pre nut protecting yourself?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
You know that's true. It depends on what you're putting in.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
But I also think that especially because I'm coming from
the gen Z perspective, right, and so we've seen the
silent generation, right. Our grandmothers, our grandfathers had their cake
and they got to eat it too. So I make
all the money, You take care of the kids. I
can do whatever I want. You take care of the household.
I can beat on you, I can cheat on you,
and you're not going to go anywhere. Then we have
(11:36):
our mothers, the baby boomers right overcorrect, I'm an independent
I can earn my own living. And then at the
same time, they still have their husbands, they have their cake,
they eat it too.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Great.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
You go to work and when you're done with work,
you come home, you take care of the kids, you cook,
you clean, and you take care of me. And so
now it's gen Z and we're trying to protect ourselves, right,
mitigate the risk of well, to be independent and provide
for myself. But I also want to have a partner
that can provide for the household and for us. And
(12:08):
that's I suppose where we're at.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Your house is different.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
My house is different because I make the most money. However,
when I'm thinking about providing. I don't think that it
is just money. I don't think that it is so
even though I may be bringing home more cash. My husband,
even before before we started the lord, hey, honey, before
(12:35):
we started, you know, separating, he was still working at
the FDA. I mean, he would cook, plain, he'd do
the laundry, and people were like, well, what did you do?
I said, thank you. I mean that's what I did.
I was grateful and I saw it. I see you,
I appreciate you. And I'm not doing it because if
I'm cooking at the office, I don't want to cook
(12:55):
at home. People assume that I am cooking just because
I cook for my living, that I am clicking at home.
I had no interest in actually clicking at home. Now,
when I look at our lives now, providing means being
a moral support for me. It means it is that
sense of protection. It is sort of being astounding board
(13:16):
for me. It is still looking at our finances. And
even though I have a team, but he brings, he
provides in different ways other than just cash and money
and bank accounts. But was it ever was the inverse
ever true? Was he ever the one who was making
the money. Yes. So when I was working on The
(13:39):
Chew when we first got together, I'm a serial entrepreneur,
so all of my money goes back into the business,
like everything. And so I didn't get married until I
was forty four, and I was used to just putting
this money back in. And when I tell you, when
we got married, I was still borrowing from Peter to
pay Paul. We needed his salary. He was while I
(14:00):
was able to basically carve out my path. And it
only changed. I did seven seasons of The Chew. It
only changed the last season of The Chew because my
money was spent living here in New York, going back
and forth maintaining my businesses that were in DC. And
(14:21):
when I when we got that last contract and they
opened up my contract and I started making more money,
I turned to him. I said, Okay, what do you
want to do? Yeah, because you he had already supported
me doing what I wanted to do. Now it's like,
let me look at you and say, what do you
want to do. We ended up and leading up to that,
saving his salary for a year so that he would
(14:43):
feel comfortable, you know, just going out and doing the things.
And he never looked back.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And you guys are happy and we're happy. Would you
be open to a khim.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
You're turning sixty this year. Yes, when I turned sixty,
I have no clue where I will be in life.
Exact I think at twenty six, though, I am allowed
to ask for these things. Right, you had a partner
that was able to pour into you, and in the
inverse down the line, you are now able to pour
into your partner. I'm still at the foundational point of
my life and so it's very very important for me
(15:15):
if I am going to consider a partnership, I have
to make sure that I am set up for success.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
But how do men respond when you say this? I'm
in like the when you go out on dates? Does
this conversation come up? And what what is that conversation? Like?
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Yeah, it does, it does come up. I'm Nigerian and
so I typically will date Nigerian men and they get it.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
I mean, okay, that's all you have to say. Soon
a Nigerian man wants to provide for you. I mean
that's in their patriarchical system. Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Sorry if because I don't just date within my race, right,
so I'm not dating No, I've dated all around the
world from all the different continents, and so I have
tended to Jewish, Nigerian, West African, African in general Middle
Eastern men they understand as well. Now when we talk
about American men, that is when you have to start
(16:12):
defining things and this is what I want and this
is why I want it, and you have to explain
yourself over explain yourself because they just don't get it,
you know, So I try I date for my audience.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
So the other thing that I want to ask you,
you you're twenty six, and you also realize that you
need someone who is older and more estep. Yes, so
you have you have a type, but that type is
basically what that person has, not who he is.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I don't agree with that, Okay, I don't agree with that.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
I think if we're talking about gender roles, then yes,
my type is a protector and a provider, But in
terms of who he is, I'm not going to just
accept a man because he can protect and provide, Because
that same man can take advantage of you. That same
man can leave you with absolutely nothing, that same man
cannot pour into you right, that same man can make
(17:07):
you work for every single dollar that he is using
to support you. And so I think there's a lot
of qualities that I have on my checklist that go
beyond finances and if you can put a roof over
my head and support me when I have our children,
So it's more than that.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, I think I think the whole conversation around generals
has changed significantly because, like we said, we're women, we're working,
we're building careers. You went to GW College in DC.
You know you weren't trying to get your mrs degree
like you. You know, we're getting an education to build
a career. I think for me, honestly, it will be
really hard for me to abandon my career at this
(17:47):
point to live in service to an individual. I could
live in service to the relationship, but an individual is different.
And so when I hear you say when you're talking
about you know, like a protector and a provider, I
have a hard time excepting that someone else is providing.
And I'll tell you what the new currency is. When
you get older, can you love me back? Can you
(18:07):
wipe my ass when I'm in when I'm no longer capable?
You know, do you love me enough to hold my
hand in sickness and in health when I have to
lose my mother, are you the person who's going to
be there to hold my hand? All of those things
matter significantly more to me than someone's ability to provide.
But I don't know cap because I look. I think
(18:28):
for providing is important as well. And if someone who
can't provide, like I am not, I think your situation
is different because you know your husband took care of
you first. I know, you know at this point I
couldn't date somebody who was not in a position to
not take care of himself.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Come on egal footing, Okay, So in saying that, does
he need to make more money than you? Or he
really has to just be able to take care Like
let's say if he was, I don't know, a brick
layer and he's providing for himself. He has a career,
he is established, but he doesn't make as much money
as you do. Could you be with that? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Absolutely, I you know I would never determine who I
dated based on what they do for a living. I
think that as elitist is classism. It's rooted in white supremacy,
and I don't ever want to be a part of that.
But I do think there is something to be said
for can we are we compatible intellectually?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Do you have intellectual curiosity? Are you desiring to take
care of me?
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And there's a lot of ways I will tell you
there's a lot of ways a man can take care
of you that have nothing to do with finances. And
you know, if you fall in love with somebody who
has a different idea, I think it does get complicated
if you fall in love with someone who has a
different idea of what partnership looks like. But for me personally,
I'm not asking for your resume before we go out
on a date, but I would like to know are
(19:51):
you somebody who values me as an individual?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
You know? And when people ask me what's the best
thing about being married or the the place where you
want to get and I say the best part is
going to the bathroom with the door open. That's the
best part because they see you when you think there's no.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So both we're saying when you do never want to
drop a noose, we're leaving the door open.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yeah, the door is open. You know.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
It's it's a level of vulnerability.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
It's a level of vulnerability, and also it's you've seen
me at my basic it can get be good or bad. Yeah,
you know. And so it goes back to you were
saying about your mom. If someone passes away when yes,
he has to wipe your butt? I mean, is he
got to start wiping your butt when he's never seen
you go do a number two? I mean like when
(20:44):
does that start? When?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
When do you build that as late as possible?
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Right? So that's that's what I'm saying. That's the part
where I want to know early on if I can
be completely take my guard down and be vulnerable and
show you my stinkiest bits, Yeah, then you will be
the person for me. If I have to be all
done up in this and you know, out as well
as at home, it's not.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Going to see me at my worst and and still
see me as beautiful in those Yes, yeah, I think
that's important. I'm curious because as a twenty something and
you're have you as you've laid out what you desire,
what is it that you would say to man, this
is what I'm bringing to the table.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
I love that question because I bring a lot to
the table. While I may not cook and clean, you
don't cook or clean as in I'm not. I'm not
a chef, I'm not an award winning housekeeper. I can
manage to get those things done right. I can take
care of it, like when you come home there will
(21:49):
be food on the table and the house will be spotless.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Did I basically do those things?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
No?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I did not. However, I believe in outsourcing the work
that you're just.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Not good at.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Are you are you working all right? I guess I'm
asking are you like you didn't do it because I
was working?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
I don't to do it?
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Or are you saying I'm home, I'm not working, but
someone else is paying to do these things for.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
It, depending on you know what the situation is. If
I have children, then I am focused on that and
I have someone that is helping us with those things.
And so when we talk about what do you bring
to the table, oftentimes when we speak to women, it's
like do you cook?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Do you clean er?
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Do you work?
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Failing to realize that I bring so much value, you know,
in the form of my education, my network, my ability
to network, my mind, my optimism, my organizational skills, my
management skills.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
That's what you bring to the table. I think in
a professional capacity, I guess I'm saying in a relationship,
but those things are not as important because you said
you want a man who provides. I'm assuming this man
knows how, and he's older than you, So he's not
looking at you for your network. He's build his network.
He's not looking to you to tell him how to
run a business. He's running a business. So he's not
looking at you for your education. He has an education.
(23:04):
That is the kind of man you're describing. So what
specifically are you bringing to the table in terms of
living in service to your relationship.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Yes, but all of those things contribute to a relationship.
It takes more than cooking and cleaning to build a life,
to raise children and to support the success of your partner, right,
and so being able to be this supporting role to
the main character who would be this partner, right, that
is going out every day to fund and to you know,
(23:32):
accumulate resources and things of that nature. It doesn't just
require cooking and cleaning. You know, project manager in your house,
the CEO of the household, I can do that.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Well. You know, I think there may there may be
a man out there looking for a project manager.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
I'd be curious, can we gotta keep in touch because
I want to know how this life, Yeah, how this
life fans out for you. And look, maybe you onto
something that I'm I'm not personally, I think managing my
own life sometimes I do think. I look, I think
I need a wife sometimes, you know, like I need help.
And I do take your point about there's more to
(24:11):
our value than cooking and cleaning. I take major issue
when you know, when I was younger, men you say
we ain't gonna cook for me, you know, and people
don't really do that now.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So I take your point.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Well, I say people, and when I say that now,
I mean men who I encounter like they know that
we're a little more seasoned, like we know better.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I think men don't say it, but I definitely think
they're thinking about it. Do you think I think they
learn what not to say, you know, if you don't.
If you say that to me, they know that they're
going to get side. I think all the eyes. Yeah,
But I really still think that men harbor some ideas
of a woman and what they want. And that's why
(24:49):
I mean, I applaud you for actually saying these things
out loud, even though I'm like this, but it takes.
It takes some guts. Also, I want to go back.
I want to just say really quickly, because you're Nigerian
and because of how the economy works. Let's say in
West Africa Nigeria, you have people to come in and
click and claim because it's part of the economy. So
(25:11):
you have somebody to come in to help you because
you are going to give back to that person who
needs help. Those are the people are going to But
did you grow up there.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
No, I didn't.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
I grew up in the States, yes, yeah, but I
grew up culturally in a Nigerian household, right, So like
growing up, we had someone that would come in and
help clean. We had people that would, you know, deliver
food to us. We had as we were coming up
being young children, we had people that would help my
mom take care of us. And so you know, I'm
not opposed to any of that. I also am again
(25:43):
traditional with a twist. I have my own and I
want to be able to build for myself. And so
in order to do those things, I do need the
time to focus on what I want to achieve out
of this life beyond merely being a mother and being
a life right and so I think having that help
gives you that time to kind of figure out what, well,
(26:06):
what do I want to do?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, I think that the cultural difference is key there. Carl.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I'm curious that your husband make any money. Does he
contribute to the household?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Does he pay this?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
He does, so, he pays for well, actually he pays
for his stuff. Wait, hold on, So basically, Kim, he
is doing my relationship. His money is his money. He
is paying for his stuff and his business.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
And yes, how do you feel about that?
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I am okay with it because I know that he's
also the man who did it for me.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yes, that's me.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
I can honestly pinpoint when he supported me. So this
isn't kind of like is he going to do that
for me? He did it. When I tell you, the
education piece is important because I get to run ideas
and things with him, and he has a very good
mind to organize, and he's on a lot of advisory
(27:08):
committees and boards, and I'm like, you're perfect for that
because of how he thinks. He is incredibly smart and
so when you say you want somebody like intellectually stimulating,
you know, compatible and curious, he is that person I
can call him, and I'm like, look, Matthew, I left
something out and needs you to ship this to me.
It gets shipped. I got to come home. I need
(27:30):
you to go to the grocery store. It gets got Yeah.
But so he supports me, and he also supports me
when I need someone to talk to about all the
things that I've been going through. As I am talking
to him about building his business. So the way that
I look at his business is that it is growing,
and I'm going to pour into him what he poured
(27:51):
into me and giving him ideas about his business.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yeah, you know, there was a conversation not too long
ago about flitting bills fifty to fifty. And look, whoever,
whatever work in your marriage, marriage is hard enough, Like
more power to you. I would have an issue if
my husband made significantly more than me and he wanted
to split fifty to fifty.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
That's just ridicularle right, that's not partnership. It is not
right ship.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
This just I just had this conversation with a couple
that I know very well, and he is like, you
have to work because you need to contribute to the household.
But yet he wants her to make all the meals
and do all these things, and I'm like, girl, give
me your own money. Never do that. Do not because
she's gonna need her own money because that independence, and
not give her power away because he wants all these
(28:35):
things and his job travels. Every time his job travels,
she has to quit her job and go find another
one somewhere else. Right, Your what you're giving to the
relationship is that you quit your job and you're moving. Yeah,
that's that's your wealth. That is you providing to that husband.
That is what you're pouring in. So those traditional models
don't fit when you're constantly moving and you want someone
(28:56):
to work.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
And I think when you know, when you think about that,
if you are making more money in your career, I
don't think a lot of men consider it.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Ain't no ten thousand dollars difference.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
You know, Like if I'm the breadwinner and it's like, yeah,
my job requires me. You know, we living in Michigan
and my job requires me to live in New York City.
That means you quit your little job and you got
to pick up and back up and come move to
New York City. I think a lot of men might
have a challenge with that. You know, like they like
the concept and the idea of just like Claire Huxtable
(29:28):
meets Michelle Obama. But it's when you are really a
partner to that person. Can you play a supporting role
the way that we have for so many years? And
I don't know that you know, honestly, a lot of
men feel comfortable with that. I think you know the
attitudes towards that are changing. I assume, Kim, that you
would not be okay splitting At this point in my life.
I am not going fifty to fifty with anybody. What
(29:52):
if you guys make the same amount of money because
you have to work and you're dating people. No one
is obligated to take care of you.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
You're just dating. And so if you meet someone, you
guys have the same income level. You live in New York,
you can't afford to live by yourself and with somebody else,
and so it's like, yes, let's move in. And the
rent is too damn high, as we know in New
York and it requires a second income. Are you willing
to walk away from love because this person can't provide
(30:21):
the life that you want?
Speaker 4 (30:23):
So I think that's where the patriarchy comes into play.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Right.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
We live in a patriarchal society that funnels power too men.
So if you cannot manage to do better than me,
then it just doesn't really add up to me. And
so especially looking at the men that I'm dating. If
I am twenty six, I'm dating a man that's about
thirty six, you have ten years on me. Why are
(30:48):
we earning the same amount of money? That makes it
doesn't add up for me? And so no, I'm not
going fifty to fifty with him. I can support myself
and I am not in a position of life where
I can start supporting someone else.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
I had this visual of you getting a chanail bag,
be like, babe, this is my bag with my money,
and he's struggling to pay the rest. I just, I mean,
honestly kill.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I mean right, yeah, wait if he no, I wouldn't.
First of all, I am a realist.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
You know, if he can't afford to buy me nice things,
then he can't afford to buy me nice things.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
If he can't, I can.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
If he cannot afford to buy me the things that
I can afford to buy me, then doesn't align.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, okay, doesn't align.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
I guess what I'm hearing no, Kim, And this is
kind of something that concerns me across because I think
there's something beautiful about when we come together and love
each other. And I hear a lot of financial implications
and not a lot of because no one I said,
I want to live in service to the relationship, not
in service to him, not in service's household, but in
service to the love that we have for each other. Therefore,
(32:02):
it is my pleasure to make you happy. It is
my pleasure to do what is provided. It's my pleasure
if you want to quit being a lawyer and go
be a yoga instructor. It is the light of my
heart to be able to provide that for you. And
I don't hear that from you. It seems to me
like the relationship is all how does this service me
and what I want? I think you will find somebody
(32:25):
like that if that's what you want, for sure. But
I just wonder if you've considered that part, that the
whole construct of the relationship is living in service specifically
to your needs and your desires. And you have invented
this person who you say, well, this is how this
is the only way I can serve and this is
(32:46):
how I will serve. And if you don't fall into
that category at twenty six years years old, you're saying this,
then it is not an alignment in my life. Are
you prepared to make that declaration? Being so early and
maybe you haven't felt love in a deep way that
that shook you to your core, that you might have
a different perspective.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I think that at least when speaking about you know,
fifty to fifty, I think about finances.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Right, however, you know there is a lot that there
is a lot that.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
I am willing to contribute to a relationship beyond like
you know, whether I'm earning income and things like that,
especially when it comes to when I think about marriage,
I think about having a family and having children, and
that takes care, and that takes emotional support, and that
takes stepping away from my dreams, That takes stepping away
(33:44):
from my focus on bettering myself. It takes selflessness. And
so you know, I don't want to get too caught
up on well, he's just giving me money. Absolutely not.
You know, it's not just that, you know, it's your
providing and you're you're you're allowing me to raise our
family and our kids, and to build a life so
that you can go out in your day and tackle
(34:05):
the day and you don't have to worry about what's
going on at the house. When you come home, everything
is good, the kids are well adjusted, like everything is handled.
And so it's more than finances. It's emotional support. It
is a partnership. It's you are working and I am
working in a different capacity.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Do you know what I love about what you're saying, Kim,
is that at the heart of what I hear you're
saying is you're placing value on those things which I
think sometimes society has overlooked, you know, And it's almost
like going into a business and you're like, look, I'm
(34:48):
providing a sweat equity. You have the money, you have
the investment. I'm giving you the sweat equity, and your
sweat equity. From what I hear you're saying is all
the things that you're pouring into like the family in
this da da da, And I get that it's just
building so as you are finding yourself in relationships, as
it took me a while to find myself in relationships,
(35:12):
and the same way that I would ask for one
thing starting out in a job, versus having the experience
by starting at your top level, you may not get
there because you have to work up just emotionally, you
have to become the person that that person wants exactly.
So in becoming that person, those first relationships, they may
(35:37):
not have those things that you want. So that's what
I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I hear you a thousand percent and your your husband
is a black man, yes, black American man.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
I kind of want to.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Shift gears a little bit and just talk about the
kind of role of feminism, you know, because what you're saying.
That's why I'm struggling with with some of what you're saying,
because it's like you are making legitimate points about my
value should not be how many meals I'm cooking you
a day and how well likely in the house. You know,
I fully support that. I think there are very nuanced
(36:14):
differences for me and how I define feminism, and a
lot of that, I think is how this American society
has defined feminism through the lens of a white woman.
Some people grew up and they saw Glorious Seinem as
the face of feminism, while Shirley Chism was completely erased
from that, you know, feminism storyline and history, and so
(36:34):
I think feminism has taken on a different perspective today,
and like, how do we define feminism now?
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Because some people say, no, feminism was all about like
going out there and get in the workforce, you know.
And I think feminism is about choice. It's like what
you want to do if you want to work in
build a career, that is feminism. I agree.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
But some men have, you know, tried to define and
I haven't see women buying into this with these like
YouTube videos on how to be a high value woman,
and you know, like our entire identity is on how
we're valued by men.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
How do you define feminism, Carla?
Speaker 3 (37:11):
I think for me, it is my choices. It's having
the power to make the choices that I want to make,
not thinking about other people.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Okay, y'all already know the streets are talking, talking, talking
months ago Barbie came out. People are still talking about
the movie Barbie. I want to get these ladies' opinions
on Barbie.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Carla.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
I saw Barbie. Now I am in apautle. So my
whole life is a scavenger hunt. So I don't remember
the moment, you know. But I also am a woman
with a lot of male energy. I will own that.
So I'm also in a field with a lot of men.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
What does that mean male energy I have.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
I'm not a frillly girl. I'm a maker. I like
to do things with my hands. I'm a take charge
kind of person. Come into a moment. I'm not a
wilting flower. And I will walk into a room and
assess the situation and I'm like, Okay, they need a leader.
(38:10):
I will be that leader. I mean. And typically that's
male energy and it is not necessarily men. And also
in working in food, there's also these conversations about male
chefs versus female chefs, and they want female chefs in
the kitchen. But I think it's male energy versus female energy.
I mean, I know men who have a lot of
female energy in their food, and you eat their food
(38:32):
and you're like, oh my gosh, I know this man
loves his mama, you know, and I just love it,
and then you can taste the love, right, and then
I think female energy is very nurturing. Male energy tends
to be egoic, and not that I'm egoic, but when
you have a plate of food that is all about
the way that it's presented, and it's about the look
(38:54):
versus the taste and nurturing. That's male energy versus female
energy on a plate. Think I cook with female energy.
I think that I moved through the world with a
little bit in my business with male energy.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
You know, when you said that, I'm thinking about that.
Do I have male energy?
Speaker 1 (39:12):
I think I have perhaps some male energy in this sense,
it depends on the man. I will quote the amazing
Jill Scott and she says, if you can tell me
what to do, you can tell me what to do.
If you can't tell me what to do, you can't
tell me what to do. So if you want me
to have some feminine energy, come to me with your
(39:34):
male energy. You know, like, I can't be the realist
at the table. It's only one woman in a relationship,
you know, it's only.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
My husband's a woman relationship.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
No, but that is in traditionally defined roles. I think,
you know, with younger generations, like you're a traditionalist, but
there are some younger people who you know, feel differently,
Like I honestly thought these roles would be diversed. I
thought that, you know, our season pan would be the
traditionalist our younger person would be No, I have no
such ideas about that's all old fashioned, you know. So
(40:06):
I think, you know, you know, you both are are
maybe anomalies in that sense, or maybe there's just more
people who feel that way who I don't know, But
I think in terms of men desiring this, it's like,
if you want to be my king, you better be
ready to wear that crown because that comes with a
lot of responsibility. And for me, I'm like you, if
(40:27):
there is no leader, then I'm going to be the leader.
It's only one of these in the relationship. And I
got that covered, you know. So if you want to
come and have your swinging through, then swing it through,
you know, because if not, we gonna pull it out
on the table. And if mine is bigger, it's a problem.
It's a problem. It's not a good dynamic in the relationship.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Well, it's not a good dynamic if you don't understand
the people. My husband is very nurturing, very Uh.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Can't that be male energy though? Like, why can't that.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
Be considered male and female energy in certain instances? And
he's a cancer, he's a such a feeling gang.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Ye, yes, I'm a taurust I'm a bull, I'm an aquarius.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
I don't know what that means.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
But I feel but it works in our relationship. There's
a balance, there's an ebb and flow in our relationship,
and so it is not based on the roles that
other people say. You have to find your own roles
in your own relationship. I think after this conversation, I mean,
that's what I'm going to walk away with. There is
nothing that is typical about anyone's roles gender. I think
(41:29):
with feminism, and I think feminism, I want choice. That's
what I want.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, I think that's key feminize is that choice.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Yeah, it's a woman's right to choose anything, all the
options we can choose because men have had the right
to make their decisions for ages, and so now it's
our time.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
I agree with that.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
What if you never meet anybody, Kim, what if you
go through like you have this idea about how you
want a family to look. I wish for you to
fine love I but I don't want to project that
on your life.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
But let's just.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Say there are a lot of wonderful, beautiful women like yourself,
who you know decades go by and maybe they never
find anybody for whatever reason, would you be okay by
yourself and providing for yourself. Absolutely, Obviously you're a capable
young woman. And for that part, I mean emotionally spiritually.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
Absolutely, if I, god forbid, never met anyone, you know, again,
I'm still at my foundational period, this foundational period of
my life. And this is why I'm so selfish about
pouring into myself and building something for myself, because I
want to know at the end of the day, I
have me. And so I want to know, at the
(42:44):
end of the day, no matter what happens, you could
find someone and lose them.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
That is just the reality. You know.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
I could have a beautiful family with someone and then
you know the man is no longer in.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
The picture, So then who takes care of the kids.
Speaker 4 (42:58):
And so I always want to make sure that for me,
I'm in a position I know that I want to
be a mother, that I can be a mother regardless
if there is a man in the picture or not.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
And so I would be absolutely fine. Okay, Well I
believe that about you, Carla. I would like to ask
you before we close the show. You've heard my thoughts,
You've heard him's thoughts. Let's start with Kim. What advice
would you offer Kim if she ventures out into this
world of finding a life partner as it relates to
gender roles.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
I think you're on your way. But I think the
main thing is to become the person you want to meet.
You have to see yourself. You have to be the
person to see yourself. So become the person you want
to meet.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
And you will meet yourself in a relationship. There's nothing
like a man. They will reflect back to you who
you are. And what is your advice for yours?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Truly? Intuitively? You know, it came to me. I didn't
let go of the reins because I think that you
are a strong woman. You will find the person. You
will never settle. But there's a part of you that
has to let go of something. But you can do
You can have it all, You can do all the things.
(44:06):
I don't know if they're going to be more than
what you are? Are you okay with that?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
What does it mean they're not?
Speaker 3 (44:13):
I mean I don't think that. What do I mean?
And you've already said that you don't care if they
make less. They just have to have their own thing. Yeah,
they can't be broke, they can't be broken, but also
a broke man is not gonna you're You're never gonna
take care of a man, which is its just okay, Yeah,
it's just okay. I think it's just about being open
to what that person is, you know, because I think
(44:37):
what it takes in relationships with flexibility. It took me.
It took me five years to become a week. So
the longer the longer you are single, the longer it
takes to become a week. I was a me and
my relationship for five years. I literally could walk away
at any moment. It took me five years to become
a wee. And I think that knowing that to become
(45:00):
a wee is a process.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
That I receive. To become a we is a process
that I receive. And I love how you pause because
I didn't want to interrupt you let them use you.
It give me all the message. I think that's amazing.
I thank you both for the conversation. My takeaway because
I think you said some things to Kim. I disagree
with some of your perspectives, but it's your life and
(45:23):
it's not for me to disagree. I just have a
different perspective. But hearing you both, I think the takeaway
I hope that our audience and our viewers gets is
and what I would offer is love is key, and
living in service to a relationship looks however you wanted
to look and however you want to define it. I
would love to see us have more love in the community.
(45:44):
We hear so many things about black women being unlovable, unmarriable, undesirable.
And you know, Carla has found love and is in
a marriage that takes on different roles. Kim is looking
for something a traditional with the twists, and I am
open to however love comes to me. And the one
(46:05):
thing that I've discovered in life as I've gotten older
and still have a journey ahead of me, is that
the true currency is someone to love you back. And
you know life time moves a lot faster when you
get older, and so when you're confronted with your own mortality,
you're losing parents, you're losing friends, spouses, get cancer and illness,
(46:26):
and you know, all those things, all of these frilly
things we're discussing about, gender roles that seem to fall
to the wayside, and you look for somebody to go
on this journey with you, and that's the most important thing, Carla.
I've loved, love, loved having you on the show. I'm
sure our listeners and audience at home has as well.
They want to follow up with you and see what
you're doing.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
What are you up to now? What can we find you?
Speaker 3 (46:47):
I have a new show called Chasing Flavor. I know
people have been used to seeing me on the Baking Championships.
This you will see me at a different light. It's
a travelog show. It is domestic and international. It's called
Chasing Flavor. Six episodes on Max and it is about
giving credit to all the cultures that had a hand
in a particular dish. I love that because you can't
(47:07):
separate the culture from the food. Even though we try,
you can't do it. Well.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Can you just give us a highlight of like, what's
the culture that we will see in the show, For.
Speaker 3 (47:15):
Instance, ice cream? I start in New York, then we
go to Philly, we go to Florence. We could have
gone to Paris, but we decided to go to France.
Oh my god, what the heck? We did not go
to France. I know y'all want to go to France.
We did go to France. Okay, so we didn't go
(47:35):
to France. We didn't go to France an ice cream show.
It takes us all the way to Turkey and there's
a Turkish ice cream called Dondrama. And yes we're in
Italy with Gelato. We are in Philly. We talk about
the father of ice cream, who is a black man
who worked at the White House. And so there's a
lot of history. And also it's pulling through all this
(47:57):
culture because we say, at the end of the day,
if you don't know the culture, really don't know the dish.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
I love that. I'm going to tune in. If you
ever need an assistant to travel with you, I volunteers tribute.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Okay, girl, come on, come on, give Carla haaw hbo
Max chasing flavor. That sounds amazing, So be sure to
tune in. And Kim, I thank you for being so
open about your life and what you desire. And we're
definitely going to check back in with you because I
want to know how that's going. And I thank you
guys most importantly for tuning in to another episode of
Across Generations.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Weigh in with comments, hit me up on social media,
let me know what you think about this conversation and
we will see you back here again very soon. Across
Generations is brought to you by Willpacker and will Packer
Media in partnership with iHeart Podcasts, I'm Your Host and
executive producer Tiffany d. Cross from Idea to Launch Productions
Executive producer Carla will Merit produced by Mandy Be and
(48:48):
Angel Forte, Editing Down Design and mixed.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
By Gaza Forte.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
Original music by Epidemic Sound Video editing by Kason Alexander
and Court Meeting.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
And this was the s
Welcome to a Cross Generations where the voices of Black
women unite.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm your host, Tiffany Cross. Tiffany Cross.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Tiffany, We gather a season elder myself as the middle
generation and a vibrant young soul for engaging intergenerational conversations.
Prepared to engage or hear perspectives that no one else
is had.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
You know how we do. We create magic creates magic.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hi, everybody, welcome to another episode of Across Generations, and
I'm so excited to talk about today's topic.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
We're talking about gender roles.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Now.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
For me, despite being raised by a single mother, I
have to say the idea of gender roles came to
me really from my grandmother. I personally had a very young,
hot mama who was not exactly the greet you in
the kitchen and an apron type. She was working and
juggling our struggle, and she was an amazing mother. But
my grandparents were really the traditional black family unit. My
(01:02):
grandmother had my grandfather's dinner on the table when he
got home, and so in many ways I sometimes kind
of believe in the patriarchy. Now obviously not the patriarchy
of systemic oppression. Obviously, But I definitely practice the ideology
of there are things that men do and there are
things that women do.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
That's for me personally.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I'm not mowing the lawn, I'm not pumping gas, I'm
not taking out to trash. Those are things I just
don't want to do. Now, does that mean I'm helpless
and unable to do those things? Obviously not. I do
them all the time. But if I'm in partnership with someone,
there are things that I expect, just as there are
things that he expects from me. And I don't think
there's really any right or wrong way to do this.
(01:41):
So this is not a judgment to anyone who has
a different perspective, and this is not a rallying call
or a to cry of feminism. This is simply my
view in my practice, and any man who wants to
enjoy my company or is in my presence will likely
need to know his role just as I know mine. Now,
when we get into income disparity, children and all of that,
it's a more nuanced conversation, and we're going to get
(02:03):
into some of that right now, So let's get it started.
I'm very very excited to welcome Carla Hall he's turning
sixty this year. She's a professional chef. You guys know her.
She's from the DMV, my neck of the woods, and
she has been married for eighteen years. I should be
so lucky. One day and decided to be the breadwinner
in her marriage to support her husband's dream of becoming
a yoga and meditation instructor. Now, he was previously an
(02:27):
attorney and this was his new passion. And on the
other side, we have Kim. She's twenty six years old.
She's from Houston, now residing in New York City, and
she's the host of the Rich Little Broke Girl podcast
and collective. And she's currently single in dating and she's
interested in traditional relationship with a twist.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So we don't quite know what that means, but let's
kick it off.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
So, Carl, I want to start with you, and I
think we have to define this first. So the definition
of gender roles the webster definitely is the role or
behavior considered to be appropriate to a particular gender, as
determined by prevailing cultural norm. Now, I want to define patriarchy.
That's a system of society or government in which the
(03:12):
father or eldest male is head of the family, and
the scent is reckoned through the male line. Visit Webstern definition,
the matriarch is a social system in which positions dominance
and authority are p merely held by women in a
broader sense that can also extend to moral authority, social privilege,
and control of property. While those definitions can apply in
general English, definitions specific to anthropology and feminism differ in
(03:35):
some respects.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
So because we're starting there, I'm curious that you define
either of those differently.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
You know, I consider myself the culinary matriarch of my
family because I'm the one who cooks and I'm the
one who passes down these recipes for my family. When
I think about when you talked about the gender roles
in terms of being able or I feel that I'm
able to do and want to do things that people
(04:05):
would consider a man would do in my household, and
I believe that you should do the thing that fills
your heart, and sometimes that's not the role that you
would think that a man would play or a female
would play. So I am flexible. I'm a flexitarian when
it comes to food, and apparently I'm a flexitarian when
(04:27):
it comes to a patriarchy. And I think these gender roles.
I'm absolutely flexible because of how I grew.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Up, right, I can understand that.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I think it's interesting though that you are our more
seasoned panelists and you're flexible, while our younger gen Z
panelists here, I don't know that you're as flexible. Com So,
do you disagree with those definitions and how would you
what category would you put yourself in?
Speaker 4 (04:52):
I align with those definitions for sure, And I think
because I align with and I understand that we live
in a patriarch goal society, I'm pretty unwavering at this
stage of my life. I'm twenty six, I'm pretty unwavering
on my position of being traditional with a twist, right,
kind of like a soft girl with sense I can
take care of me. But if I'm going to be
(05:13):
in a partnership at this stage of my life, then
I need you to be able to protect and provide
as well. And so I feel like, given the fact
that you know power is funneled to men quite literally,
I don't think there's anything wrong or there's much I
don't really understand the controversy around women expecting those same
men to be doing better than them, right, and so
(05:36):
When I look at dating and I think about, you know,
a partnership, what would I want Now I'm twenty six,
I'm probably dating someone that's thirty six, thirty four. I
do expect you to be doing better than me, and
I do expect if we're going to be in a
partnership and I'm going to shift my focus to a
relationship that you are able to provide.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
What doesn't that mean able to provide? Provide?
Speaker 4 (05:55):
What exactly provide in terms of financially provide in terms
of just taking care of me so that I can
still achieve the things that I want in my life
as I'm building my foundation. Now, if I'm going to
give my focus to a relationship that I also want
that relationship to aid and be building this foundation.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I have a lot of thoughts and questions about that,
But let me let me just first jump in and
say I do expect men for me personally. I expect
men to do certain things. I don't know if I'd
be comfortable with someone being the sole provider for me,
and I think a part of that reason is Carla,
because I've been the sole provider for myself for so long,
I don't know that I have the trust to hand
(06:41):
over my life and livelihood to another person at this point.
Partnership to me, at this point in my life when
I'm not having children, and you know, we're probably combining
balance seats and that's about it. Partnership in my life
is how can I live in service to this relationship
and how can he live in service to this relationationship?
And that takes on different forms. I'm curious what you
(07:02):
feel about Kim's thoughts.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
You know, it's really interesting because I think back to college.
I mean it's for me. I grew up in a
family with all women. My mother was a single, single
a mother. They were divorced when I was seven. My
grandmother had two daughters. Her two daughters had two daughters.
I saw women do everything in my life. So I
was watching the man come in to fix things for
(07:26):
my mother. I'm like, well, I'm going to watch it.
Why would we pay him again? I can fix it,
you know. So that's where I come from. Even in college,
I would not allow somebody to pay for my meal
if I went out to eat because for me, in
my head, you're taking my power away.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
So I.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Don't owe you anything. I don't owe you a kiss.
I don't owe you anything past a kiss. I owe
you nothing, you know. So for me, it's always been
my power to hold my power. And I think because
of the way I grew up that's why I feel
that way now when it came to in my marriage
the whole money honey, the honey money thing is real
(08:06):
because I didn't get married until I was forty four,
So my money was my money, and so it took
me five years to sort of come into the thing
it's our money because I was so used to providing
for myself.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
The concept of our money. Kim, do you I mean,
do you plan on working?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
And if you do plan on working, like, how what
do you imagine the finances?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Is it our money?
Speaker 4 (08:31):
So I think it's evident historically that you cannot rely
on a man, and so personally, when I say traditional
with the twist, I'm not going to ever put myself
in a position where you know, I have to completely
rely on a man. I sign a bad prenup and
I have to beg a man to buy me a
piece of bread. I'm just not going to do that.
And so I feel like, you know, my money is
(08:54):
my money so that I can invest in building myself
right as I'm now in this relationship, and I'm aging right,
and your money is to provide for the unit. And
so if that looks like taking care of the bills,
because if I'm having children, I'm not working, I'm taking
care of the kids, I'm taking care of the house,
(09:14):
and so I don't think again, I don't think that's
asking for much. I think that's asking for it.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
But you're saying, you're saying in a marriage, Let's say
you're saying the money you earn is your money.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yes, the money is our.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Money for the household, yes. But so to me, that
doesn't say partnership. Though, what are you partnership?
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Because you know, when you're in a marriage, right, especially
if you are having children with someone, I'm giving my life,
my womb, I'm giving my time, my focus, my earning potential,
and so he is able to go out in the
job market, the workforce continue to excel, and now I'm
(09:56):
taking years off to watch the children, right, and so
I need to make sure that I'm protecting myself if
things go awry.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
But what you're saying to me, what it sounds like,
is I am planning on this not working out when
if you're living in service to a partnership, that money
is I am earning this money to build us collectively.
It sounds to me like you're saying, I am earning
this money for me because you've given me children. You're
going to provide stability. And then the second I get
tired of this, at least I have some money in
(10:25):
my pocket to walk away from it.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
No, I don't.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I don't see it like that.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
I see it more so like I am protecting myself
because I understand that fifty percent of marriages and in divorce,
not that anyone goes.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Fifty percent of marriages in a divorce, because the attitudes
like that.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yeah, because you're you're one in a guarantee, You're you're
I think you're going and wanting a guarantee, and I
truly believe that once you think it and you have
that mindset, it will happen. Okay, Yeah, it will happen.
Because you're already setting yourself up to kind of have
the fail safe because you want to guarantee and you
(11:02):
want to protect yourself. You go in. I mean, but
is a pre nut protecting yourself?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
You know that's true. It depends on what you're putting in.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
But I also think that especially because I'm coming from
the gen Z perspective, right, and so we've seen the
silent generation, right. Our grandmothers, our grandfathers had their cake
and they got to eat it too. So I make
all the money, You take care of the kids. I
can do whatever I want. You take care of the household.
I can beat on you, I can cheat on you,
and you're not going to go anywhere. Then we have
(11:36):
our mothers, the baby boomers right overcorrect, I'm an independent
I can earn my own living. And then at the
same time, they still have their husbands, they have their cake,
they eat it too.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Great.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
You go to work and when you're done with work,
you come home, you take care of the kids, you cook,
you clean, and you take care of me. And so
now it's gen Z and we're trying to protect ourselves, right,
mitigate the risk of well, to be independent and provide
for myself. But I also want to have a partner
that can provide for the household and for us. And
(12:08):
that's I suppose where we're at.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Your house is different.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
My house is different because I make the most money. However,
when I'm thinking about providing. I don't think that it
is just money. I don't think that it is so
even though I may be bringing home more cash. My husband,
even before before we started the lord, hey, honey, before
(12:35):
we started, you know, separating, he was still working at
the FDA. I mean, he would cook, plain, he'd do
the laundry, and people were like, well, what did you do?
I said, thank you. I mean that's what I did.
I was grateful and I saw it. I see you,
I appreciate you. And I'm not doing it because if
I'm cooking at the office, I don't want to cook
(12:55):
at home. People assume that I am cooking just because
I cook for my living, that I am clicking at home.
I had no interest in actually clicking at home. Now,
when I look at our lives now, providing means being
a moral support for me. It means it is that
sense of protection. It is sort of being astounding board
(13:16):
for me. It is still looking at our finances. And
even though I have a team, but he brings, he
provides in different ways other than just cash and money
and bank accounts. But was it ever was the inverse
ever true? Was he ever the one who was making
the money. Yes. So when I was working on The
(13:39):
Chew when we first got together, I'm a serial entrepreneur,
so all of my money goes back into the business,
like everything. And so I didn't get married until I
was forty four, and I was used to just putting
this money back in. And when I tell you, when
we got married, I was still borrowing from Peter to
pay Paul. We needed his salary. He was while I
(14:00):
was able to basically carve out my path. And it
only changed. I did seven seasons of The Chew. It
only changed the last season of The Chew because my
money was spent living here in New York, going back
and forth maintaining my businesses that were in DC. And
(14:21):
when I when we got that last contract and they
opened up my contract and I started making more money,
I turned to him. I said, Okay, what do you
want to do? Yeah, because you he had already supported
me doing what I wanted to do. Now it's like,
let me look at you and say, what do you
want to do. We ended up and leading up to that,
saving his salary for a year so that he would
(14:43):
feel comfortable, you know, just going out and doing the things.
And he never looked back.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And you guys are happy and we're happy. Would you
be open to a khim.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
You're turning sixty this year. Yes, when I turned sixty,
I have no clue where I will be in life.
Exact I think at twenty six, though, I am allowed
to ask for these things. Right, you had a partner
that was able to pour into you, and in the
inverse down the line, you are now able to pour
into your partner. I'm still at the foundational point of
my life and so it's very very important for me
(15:15):
if I am going to consider a partnership, I have
to make sure that I am set up for success.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
But how do men respond when you say this? I'm
in like the when you go out on dates? Does
this conversation come up? And what what is that conversation? Like?
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Yeah, it does, it does come up. I'm Nigerian and
so I typically will date Nigerian men and they get it.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
I mean, okay, that's all you have to say. Soon
a Nigerian man wants to provide for you. I mean
that's in their patriarchical system. Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Sorry if because I don't just date within my race, right,
so I'm not dating No, I've dated all around the
world from all the different continents, and so I have
tended to Jewish, Nigerian, West African, African in general Middle
Eastern men they understand as well. Now when we talk
about American men, that is when you have to start
(16:12):
defining things and this is what I want and this
is why I want it, and you have to explain
yourself over explain yourself because they just don't get it,
you know, So I try I date for my audience.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
So the other thing that I want to ask you,
you you're twenty six, and you also realize that you
need someone who is older and more estep. Yes, so
you have you have a type, but that type is
basically what that person has, not who he is.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I don't agree with that, Okay, I don't agree with that.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
I think if we're talking about gender roles, then yes,
my type is a protector and a provider, But in
terms of who he is, I'm not going to just
accept a man because he can protect and provide, Because
that same man can take advantage of you. That same
man can leave you with absolutely nothing, that same man
cannot pour into you right, that same man can make
(17:07):
you work for every single dollar that he is using
to support you. And so I think there's a lot
of qualities that I have on my checklist that go
beyond finances and if you can put a roof over
my head and support me when I have our children,
So it's more than that.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, I think I think the whole conversation around generals
has changed significantly because, like we said, we're women, we're working,
we're building careers. You went to GW College in DC.
You know you weren't trying to get your mrs degree
like you. You know, we're getting an education to build
a career. I think for me, honestly, it will be
really hard for me to abandon my career at this
(17:47):
point to live in service to an individual. I could
live in service to the relationship, but an individual is different.
And so when I hear you say when you're talking
about you know, like a protector and a provider, I
have a hard time excepting that someone else is providing.
And I'll tell you what the new currency is. When
you get older, can you love me back? Can you
(18:07):
wipe my ass when I'm in when I'm no longer capable?
You know, do you love me enough to hold my
hand in sickness and in health when I have to
lose my mother, are you the person who's going to
be there to hold my hand? All of those things
matter significantly more to me than someone's ability to provide.
But I don't know cap because I look. I think
(18:28):
for providing is important as well. And if someone who
can't provide, like I am not, I think your situation
is different because you know your husband took care of
you first. I know, you know at this point I
couldn't date somebody who was not in a position to
not take care of himself.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Come on egal footing, Okay, So in saying that, does
he need to make more money than you? Or he
really has to just be able to take care Like
let's say if he was, I don't know, a brick
layer and he's providing for himself. He has a career,
he is established, but he doesn't make as much money
as you do. Could you be with that? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Absolutely, I you know I would never determine who I
dated based on what they do for a living. I
think that as elitist is classism. It's rooted in white supremacy,
and I don't ever want to be a part of that.
But I do think there is something to be said
for can we are we compatible intellectually?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Do you have intellectual curiosity? Are you desiring to take
care of me?
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And there's a lot of ways I will tell you
there's a lot of ways a man can take care
of you that have nothing to do with finances. And
you know, if you fall in love with somebody who
has a different idea, I think it does get complicated
if you fall in love with someone who has a
different idea of what partnership looks like. But for me personally,
I'm not asking for your resume before we go out
on a date, but I would like to know are
(19:51):
you somebody who values me as an individual?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
You know? And when people ask me what's the best
thing about being married or the the place where you
want to get and I say the best part is
going to the bathroom with the door open. That's the
best part because they see you when you think there's no.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So both we're saying when you do never want to
drop a noose, we're leaving the door open.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yeah, the door is open. You know.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
It's it's a level of vulnerability.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
It's a level of vulnerability, and also it's you've seen
me at my basic it can get be good or bad. Yeah,
you know. And so it goes back to you were
saying about your mom. If someone passes away when yes,
he has to wipe your butt? I mean, is he
got to start wiping your butt when he's never seen
you go do a number two? I mean like when
(20:44):
does that start? When?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
When do you build that as late as possible?
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Right? So that's that's what I'm saying. That's the part
where I want to know early on if I can
be completely take my guard down and be vulnerable and
show you my stinkiest bits, Yeah, then you will be
the person for me. If I have to be all
done up in this and you know, out as well
as at home, it's not.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Going to see me at my worst and and still
see me as beautiful in those Yes, yeah, I think
that's important. I'm curious because as a twenty something and
you're have you as you've laid out what you desire,
what is it that you would say to man, this
is what I'm bringing to the table.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
I love that question because I bring a lot to
the table. While I may not cook and clean, you
don't cook or clean as in I'm not. I'm not
a chef, I'm not an award winning housekeeper. I can
manage to get those things done right. I can take
care of it, like when you come home there will
(21:49):
be food on the table and the house will be spotless.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Did I basically do those things?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
No?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I did not. However, I believe in outsourcing the work
that you're just.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Not good at.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Are you are you working all right? I guess I'm
asking are you like you didn't do it because I
was working?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
I don't to do it?
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Or are you saying I'm home, I'm not working, but
someone else is paying to do these things for.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
It, depending on you know what the situation is. If
I have children, then I am focused on that and
I have someone that is helping us with those things.
And so when we talk about what do you bring
to the table, oftentimes when we speak to women, it's
like do you cook?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Do you clean er?
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Do you work?
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Failing to realize that I bring so much value, you know,
in the form of my education, my network, my ability
to network, my mind, my optimism, my organizational skills, my
management skills.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
That's what you bring to the table. I think in
a professional capacity, I guess I'm saying in a relationship,
but those things are not as important because you said
you want a man who provides. I'm assuming this man
knows how, and he's older than you, So he's not
looking at you for your network. He's build his network.
He's not looking to you to tell him how to
run a business. He's running a business. So he's not
looking at you for your education. He has an education.
(23:04):
That is the kind of man you're describing. So what
specifically are you bringing to the table in terms of
living in service to your relationship.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Yes, but all of those things contribute to a relationship.
It takes more than cooking and cleaning to build a life,
to raise children and to support the success of your partner, right,
and so being able to be this supporting role to
the main character who would be this partner, right, that
is going out every day to fund and to you know,
(23:32):
accumulate resources and things of that nature. It doesn't just
require cooking and cleaning. You know, project manager in your house,
the CEO of the household, I can do that.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Well. You know, I think there may there may be
a man out there looking for a project manager.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
I'd be curious, can we gotta keep in touch because
I want to know how this life, Yeah, how this
life fans out for you. And look, maybe you onto
something that I'm I'm not personally, I think managing my
own life sometimes I do think. I look, I think
I need a wife sometimes, you know, like I need help.
And I do take your point about there's more to
(24:11):
our value than cooking and cleaning. I take major issue
when you know, when I was younger, men you say
we ain't gonna cook for me, you know, and people
don't really do that now.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So I take your point.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Well, I say people, and when I say that now,
I mean men who I encounter like they know that
we're a little more seasoned, like we know better.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I think men don't say it, but I definitely think
they're thinking about it. Do you think I think they
learn what not to say, you know, if you don't.
If you say that to me, they know that they're
going to get side. I think all the eyes. Yeah,
But I really still think that men harbor some ideas
of a woman and what they want. And that's why
(24:49):
I mean, I applaud you for actually saying these things
out loud, even though I'm like this, but it takes.
It takes some guts. Also, I want to go back.
I want to just say really quickly, because you're Nigerian
and because of how the economy works. Let's say in
West Africa Nigeria, you have people to come in and
click and claim because it's part of the economy. So
(25:11):
you have somebody to come in to help you because
you are going to give back to that person who
needs help. Those are the people are going to But
did you grow up there.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
No, I didn't.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
I grew up in the States, yes, yeah, but I
grew up culturally in a Nigerian household, right, So like
growing up, we had someone that would come in and
help clean. We had people that would, you know, deliver
food to us. We had as we were coming up
being young children, we had people that would help my
mom take care of us. And so you know, I'm
not opposed to any of that. I also am again
(25:43):
traditional with a twist. I have my own and I
want to be able to build for myself. And so
in order to do those things, I do need the
time to focus on what I want to achieve out
of this life beyond merely being a mother and being
a life right and so I think having that help
gives you that time to kind of figure out what, well,
(26:06):
what do I want to do?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, I think that the cultural difference is key there. Carl.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I'm curious that your husband make any money. Does he
contribute to the household?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Does he pay this?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
He does, so, he pays for well, actually he pays
for his stuff. Wait, hold on, So basically, Kim, he
is doing my relationship. His money is his money. He
is paying for his stuff and his business.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
And yes, how do you feel about that?
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I am okay with it because I know that he's
also the man who did it for me.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yes, that's me.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
I can honestly pinpoint when he supported me. So this
isn't kind of like is he going to do that
for me? He did it. When I tell you, the
education piece is important because I get to run ideas
and things with him, and he has a very good
mind to organize, and he's on a lot of advisory
(27:08):
committees and boards, and I'm like, you're perfect for that
because of how he thinks. He is incredibly smart and
so when you say you want somebody like intellectually stimulating,
you know, compatible and curious, he is that person I
can call him, and I'm like, look, Matthew, I left
something out and needs you to ship this to me.
It gets shipped. I got to come home. I need
(27:30):
you to go to the grocery store. It gets got Yeah.
But so he supports me, and he also supports me
when I need someone to talk to about all the
things that I've been going through. As I am talking
to him about building his business. So the way that
I look at his business is that it is growing,
and I'm going to pour into him what he poured
(27:51):
into me and giving him ideas about his business.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yeah, you know, there was a conversation not too long
ago about flitting bills fifty to fifty. And look, whoever,
whatever work in your marriage, marriage is hard enough, Like
more power to you. I would have an issue if
my husband made significantly more than me and he wanted
to split fifty to fifty.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
That's just ridicularle right, that's not partnership. It is not
right ship.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
This just I just had this conversation with a couple
that I know very well, and he is like, you
have to work because you need to contribute to the household.
But yet he wants her to make all the meals
and do all these things, and I'm like, girl, give
me your own money. Never do that. Do not because
she's gonna need her own money because that independence, and
not give her power away because he wants all these
(28:35):
things and his job travels. Every time his job travels,
she has to quit her job and go find another
one somewhere else. Right, Your what you're giving to the
relationship is that you quit your job and you're moving. Yeah,
that's that's your wealth. That is you providing to that husband.
That is what you're pouring in. So those traditional models
don't fit when you're constantly moving and you want someone
(28:56):
to work.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
And I think when you know, when you think about that,
if you are making more money in your career, I
don't think a lot of men consider it.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Ain't no ten thousand dollars difference.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
You know, Like if I'm the breadwinner and it's like, yeah,
my job requires me. You know, we living in Michigan
and my job requires me to live in New York City.
That means you quit your little job and you got
to pick up and back up and come move to
New York City. I think a lot of men might
have a challenge with that. You know, like they like
the concept and the idea of just like Claire Huxtable
(29:28):
meets Michelle Obama. But it's when you are really a
partner to that person. Can you play a supporting role
the way that we have for so many years? And
I don't know that you know, honestly, a lot of
men feel comfortable with that. I think you know the
attitudes towards that are changing. I assume, Kim, that you
would not be okay splitting At this point in my life.
I am not going fifty to fifty with anybody. What
(29:52):
if you guys make the same amount of money because
you have to work and you're dating people. No one
is obligated to take care of you.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
You're just dating. And so if you meet someone, you
guys have the same income level. You live in New York,
you can't afford to live by yourself and with somebody else,
and so it's like, yes, let's move in. And the
rent is too damn high, as we know in New
York and it requires a second income. Are you willing
to walk away from love because this person can't provide
(30:21):
the life that you want?
Speaker 4 (30:23):
So I think that's where the patriarchy comes into play.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Right.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
We live in a patriarchal society that funnels power too men.
So if you cannot manage to do better than me,
then it just doesn't really add up to me. And
so especially looking at the men that I'm dating. If
I am twenty six, I'm dating a man that's about
thirty six, you have ten years on me. Why are
(30:48):
we earning the same amount of money? That makes it
doesn't add up for me? And so no, I'm not
going fifty to fifty with him. I can support myself
and I am not in a position of life where
I can start supporting someone else.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
I had this visual of you getting a chanail bag,
be like, babe, this is my bag with my money,
and he's struggling to pay the rest. I just, I mean,
honestly kill.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I mean right, yeah, wait if he no, I wouldn't.
First of all, I am a realist.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
You know, if he can't afford to buy me nice things,
then he can't afford to buy me nice things.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
If he can't, I can.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
If he cannot afford to buy me the things that
I can afford to buy me, then doesn't align.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, okay, doesn't align.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
I guess what I'm hearing no, Kim, And this is
kind of something that concerns me across because I think
there's something beautiful about when we come together and love
each other. And I hear a lot of financial implications
and not a lot of because no one I said,
I want to live in service to the relationship, not
in service to him, not in service's household, but in
service to the love that we have for each other. Therefore,
(32:02):
it is my pleasure to make you happy. It is
my pleasure to do what is provided. It's my pleasure
if you want to quit being a lawyer and go
be a yoga instructor. It is the light of my
heart to be able to provide that for you. And
I don't hear that from you. It seems to me
like the relationship is all how does this service me
and what I want? I think you will find somebody
(32:25):
like that if that's what you want, for sure. But
I just wonder if you've considered that part, that the
whole construct of the relationship is living in service specifically
to your needs and your desires. And you have invented
this person who you say, well, this is how this
is the only way I can serve and this is
(32:46):
how I will serve. And if you don't fall into
that category at twenty six years years old, you're saying this,
then it is not an alignment in my life. Are
you prepared to make that declaration? Being so early and
maybe you haven't felt love in a deep way that
that shook you to your core, that you might have
a different perspective.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I think that at least when speaking about you know,
fifty to fifty, I think about finances.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Right, however, you know there is a lot that there
is a lot that.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
I am willing to contribute to a relationship beyond like
you know, whether I'm earning income and things like that,
especially when it comes to when I think about marriage,
I think about having a family and having children, and
that takes care, and that takes emotional support, and that
takes stepping away from my dreams, That takes stepping away
(33:44):
from my focus on bettering myself. It takes selflessness. And
so you know, I don't want to get too caught
up on well, he's just giving me money. Absolutely not.
You know, it's not just that, you know, it's your
providing and you're you're you're allowing me to raise our
family and our kids, and to build a life so
that you can go out in your day and tackle
(34:05):
the day and you don't have to worry about what's
going on at the house. When you come home, everything
is good, the kids are well adjusted, like everything is handled.
And so it's more than finances. It's emotional support. It
is a partnership. It's you are working and I am
working in a different capacity.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Do you know what I love about what you're saying, Kim,
is that at the heart of what I hear you're
saying is you're placing value on those things which I
think sometimes society has overlooked, you know, And it's almost
like going into a business and you're like, look, I'm
(34:48):
providing a sweat equity. You have the money, you have
the investment. I'm giving you the sweat equity, and your
sweat equity. From what I hear you're saying is all
the things that you're pouring into like the family in
this da da da, And I get that it's just
building so as you are finding yourself in relationships, as
it took me a while to find myself in relationships,
(35:12):
and the same way that I would ask for one
thing starting out in a job, versus having the experience
by starting at your top level, you may not get
there because you have to work up just emotionally, you
have to become the person that that person wants exactly.
So in becoming that person, those first relationships, they may
(35:37):
not have those things that you want. So that's what
I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I hear you a thousand percent and your your husband
is a black man, yes, black American man.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
I kind of want to.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Shift gears a little bit and just talk about the
kind of role of feminism, you know, because what you're saying.
That's why I'm struggling with with some of what you're saying,
because it's like you are making legitimate points about my
value should not be how many meals I'm cooking you
a day and how well likely in the house. You know,
I fully support that. I think there are very nuanced
(36:14):
differences for me and how I define feminism, and a
lot of that, I think is how this American society
has defined feminism through the lens of a white woman.
Some people grew up and they saw Glorious Seinem as
the face of feminism, while Shirley Chism was completely erased
from that, you know, feminism storyline and history, and so
(36:34):
I think feminism has taken on a different perspective today,
and like, how do we define feminism now?
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Because some people say, no, feminism was all about like
going out there and get in the workforce, you know.
And I think feminism is about choice. It's like what
you want to do if you want to work in
build a career, that is feminism. I agree.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
But some men have, you know, tried to define and
I haven't see women buying into this with these like
YouTube videos on how to be a high value woman,
and you know, like our entire identity is on how
we're valued by men.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
How do you define feminism, Carla?
Speaker 3 (37:11):
I think for me, it is my choices. It's having
the power to make the choices that I want to make,
not thinking about other people.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Okay, y'all already know the streets are talking, talking, talking
months ago Barbie came out. People are still talking about
the movie Barbie. I want to get these ladies' opinions
on Barbie.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Carla.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
I saw Barbie. Now I am in apautle. So my
whole life is a scavenger hunt. So I don't remember
the moment, you know. But I also am a woman
with a lot of male energy. I will own that.
So I'm also in a field with a lot of men.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
What does that mean male energy I have.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
I'm not a frillly girl. I'm a maker. I like
to do things with my hands. I'm a take charge
kind of person. Come into a moment. I'm not a
wilting flower. And I will walk into a room and
assess the situation and I'm like, Okay, they need a leader.
(38:10):
I will be that leader. I mean. And typically that's
male energy and it is not necessarily men. And also
in working in food, there's also these conversations about male
chefs versus female chefs, and they want female chefs in
the kitchen. But I think it's male energy versus female energy.
I mean, I know men who have a lot of
female energy in their food, and you eat their food
(38:32):
and you're like, oh my gosh, I know this man
loves his mama, you know, and I just love it,
and then you can taste the love, right, and then
I think female energy is very nurturing. Male energy tends
to be egoic, and not that I'm egoic, but when
you have a plate of food that is all about
the way that it's presented, and it's about the look
(38:54):
versus the taste and nurturing. That's male energy versus female
energy on a plate. Think I cook with female energy.
I think that I moved through the world with a
little bit in my business with male energy.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
You know, when you said that, I'm thinking about that.
Do I have male energy?
Speaker 1 (39:12):
I think I have perhaps some male energy in this sense,
it depends on the man. I will quote the amazing
Jill Scott and she says, if you can tell me
what to do, you can tell me what to do.
If you can't tell me what to do, you can't
tell me what to do. So if you want me
to have some feminine energy, come to me with your
(39:34):
male energy. You know, like, I can't be the realist
at the table. It's only one woman in a relationship,
you know, it's only.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
My husband's a woman relationship.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
No, but that is in traditionally defined roles. I think,
you know, with younger generations, like you're a traditionalist, but
there are some younger people who you know, feel differently,
Like I honestly thought these roles would be diversed. I
thought that, you know, our season pan would be the
traditionalist our younger person would be No, I have no
such ideas about that's all old fashioned, you know. So
(40:06):
I think, you know, you know, you both are are
maybe anomalies in that sense, or maybe there's just more
people who feel that way who I don't know, But
I think in terms of men desiring this, it's like,
if you want to be my king, you better be
ready to wear that crown because that comes with a
lot of responsibility. And for me, I'm like you, if
(40:27):
there is no leader, then I'm going to be the leader.
It's only one of these in the relationship. And I
got that covered, you know. So if you want to
come and have your swinging through, then swing it through,
you know, because if not, we gonna pull it out
on the table. And if mine is bigger, it's a problem.
It's a problem. It's not a good dynamic in the relationship.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Well, it's not a good dynamic if you don't understand
the people. My husband is very nurturing, very Uh.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Can't that be male energy though? Like, why can't that.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
Be considered male and female energy in certain instances? And
he's a cancer, he's a such a feeling gang.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Ye, yes, I'm a taurust I'm a bull, I'm an aquarius.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
I don't know what that means.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
But I feel but it works in our relationship. There's
a balance, there's an ebb and flow in our relationship,
and so it is not based on the roles that
other people say. You have to find your own roles
in your own relationship. I think after this conversation, I mean,
that's what I'm going to walk away with. There is
nothing that is typical about anyone's roles gender. I think
(41:29):
with feminism, and I think feminism, I want choice. That's
what I want.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, I think that's key feminize is that choice.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Yeah, it's a woman's right to choose anything, all the
options we can choose because men have had the right
to make their decisions for ages, and so now it's
our time.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
I agree with that.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
What if you never meet anybody, Kim, what if you
go through like you have this idea about how you
want a family to look. I wish for you to
fine love I but I don't want to project that
on your life.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
But let's just.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Say there are a lot of wonderful, beautiful women like yourself,
who you know decades go by and maybe they never
find anybody for whatever reason, would you be okay by
yourself and providing for yourself. Absolutely, Obviously you're a capable
young woman. And for that part, I mean emotionally spiritually.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
Absolutely, if I, god forbid, never met anyone, you know, again,
I'm still at my foundational period, this foundational period of
my life. And this is why I'm so selfish about
pouring into myself and building something for myself, because I
want to know at the end of the day, I
have me. And so I want to know, at the
(42:44):
end of the day, no matter what happens, you could
find someone and lose them.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
That is just the reality. You know.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
I could have a beautiful family with someone and then
you know the man is no longer in.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
The picture, So then who takes care of the kids.
Speaker 4 (42:58):
And so I always want to make sure that for me,
I'm in a position I know that I want to
be a mother, that I can be a mother regardless
if there is a man in the picture or not.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
And so I would be absolutely fine. Okay, Well I
believe that about you, Carla. I would like to ask
you before we close the show. You've heard my thoughts,
You've heard him's thoughts. Let's start with Kim. What advice
would you offer Kim if she ventures out into this
world of finding a life partner as it relates to
gender roles.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
I think you're on your way. But I think the
main thing is to become the person you want to meet.
You have to see yourself. You have to be the
person to see yourself. So become the person you want
to meet.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
And you will meet yourself in a relationship. There's nothing
like a man. They will reflect back to you who
you are. And what is your advice for yours?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Truly? Intuitively? You know, it came to me. I didn't
let go of the reins because I think that you
are a strong woman. You will find the person. You
will never settle. But there's a part of you that
has to let go of something. But you can do
You can have it all, You can do all the things.
(44:06):
I don't know if they're going to be more than
what you are? Are you okay with that?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
What does it mean they're not?
Speaker 3 (44:13):
I mean I don't think that. What do I mean?
And you've already said that you don't care if they
make less. They just have to have their own thing. Yeah,
they can't be broke, they can't be broken, but also
a broke man is not gonna you're You're never gonna
take care of a man, which is its just okay, Yeah,
it's just okay. I think it's just about being open
to what that person is, you know, because I think
(44:37):
what it takes in relationships with flexibility. It took me.
It took me five years to become a week. So
the longer the longer you are single, the longer it
takes to become a week. I was a me and
my relationship for five years. I literally could walk away
at any moment. It took me five years to become
a wee. And I think that knowing that to become
(45:00):
a wee is a process.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
That I receive. To become a we is a process
that I receive. And I love how you pause because
I didn't want to interrupt you let them use you.
It give me all the message. I think that's amazing.
I thank you both for the conversation. My takeaway because
I think you said some things to Kim. I disagree
with some of your perspectives, but it's your life and
(45:23):
it's not for me to disagree. I just have a
different perspective. But hearing you both, I think the takeaway
I hope that our audience and our viewers gets is
and what I would offer is love is key, and
living in service to a relationship looks however you wanted
to look and however you want to define it. I
would love to see us have more love in the community.
(45:44):
We hear so many things about black women being unlovable, unmarriable, undesirable.
And you know, Carla has found love and is in
a marriage that takes on different roles. Kim is looking
for something a traditional with the twists, and I am
open to however love comes to me. And the one
(46:05):
thing that I've discovered in life as I've gotten older
and still have a journey ahead of me, is that
the true currency is someone to love you back. And
you know life time moves a lot faster when you
get older, and so when you're confronted with your own mortality,
you're losing parents, you're losing friends, spouses, get cancer and illness,
(46:26):
and you know, all those things, all of these frilly
things we're discussing about, gender roles that seem to fall
to the wayside, and you look for somebody to go
on this journey with you, and that's the most important thing, Carla.
I've loved, love, loved having you on the show. I'm
sure our listeners and audience at home has as well.
They want to follow up with you and see what
you're doing.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
What are you up to now? What can we find you?
Speaker 3 (46:47):
I have a new show called Chasing Flavor. I know
people have been used to seeing me on the Baking Championships.
This you will see me at a different light. It's
a travelog show. It is domestic and international. It's called
Chasing Flavor. Six episodes on Max and it is about
giving credit to all the cultures that had a hand
in a particular dish. I love that because you can't
(47:07):
separate the culture from the food. Even though we try,
you can't do it. Well.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Can you just give us a highlight of like, what's
the culture that we will see in the show, For.
Speaker 3 (47:15):
Instance, ice cream? I start in New York, then we
go to Philly, we go to Florence. We could have
gone to Paris, but we decided to go to France.
Oh my god, what the heck? We did not go
to France. I know y'all want to go to France.
We did go to France. Okay, so we didn't go
(47:35):
to France. We didn't go to France an ice cream show.
It takes us all the way to Turkey and there's
a Turkish ice cream called Dondrama. And yes we're in
Italy with Gelato. We are in Philly. We talk about
the father of ice cream, who is a black man
who worked at the White House. And so there's a
lot of history. And also it's pulling through all this
(47:57):
culture because we say, at the end of the day,
if you don't know the culture, really don't know the dish.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
I love that. I'm going to tune in. If you
ever need an assistant to travel with you, I volunteers tribute.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Okay, girl, come on, come on, give Carla haaw hbo
Max chasing flavor. That sounds amazing, So be sure to
tune in. And Kim, I thank you for being so
open about your life and what you desire. And we're
definitely going to check back in with you because I
want to know how that's going. And I thank you
guys most importantly for tuning in to another episode of
Across Generations.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Weigh in with comments, hit me up on social media,
let me know what you think about this conversation and
we will see you back here again very soon. Across
Generations is brought to you by Willpacker and will Packer
Media in partnership with iHeart Podcasts, I'm Your Host and
executive producer Tiffany d. Cross from Idea to Launch Productions
Executive producer Carla will Merit produced by Mandy Be and
(48:48):
Angel Forte, Editing Down Design and mixed.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
By Gaza Forte.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
Original music by Epidemic Sound Video editing by Kason Alexander
and Court Meeting.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
And this was the s
Host
Tiffany Cross
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