December 10, 2024 • 52 mins
Join host Tiffany Cross in a candid and deeply moving episode of Across Generations, as we tackle the sensitive and often silenced topic of "church hurt." From the historic significance of the Black church to its contemporary challenges, this conversation delves into stories of resilience, betrayal, and healing within religious institutions. Featuring heartfelt testimonies from guests of varying generations, the episode provides a safe space to discuss trauma, accountability, and the duality of faith and human imperfection.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Across Generations, where the voices of Black women unite.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm your host, Tiffany Cross. Tiffany Cross.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
We gather a season elder myself as the middle generation,
and a vibrant young soul for engaging intergenerational conversations. Prepared
to engage or hear perspectives that no one else is happy.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
You know how we do. We create magic, Create magic.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Hi, everybody, welcome to another episode of Across Generations. I
am your host, Tiffany Cross, and today we're talking about
a very sensitive subject, and that's church art. Now, undoubtedly
most of you are familiar with the ubiquitous claims of
abuse against the Catholic Church, and we should note the
cases of clergy abuse among African Americans most certainly exists,
but are especially under reported. However, today we're going to
(00:57):
talk about the Black Church and the various of abuse
that permeate this particular wing of various denominations. Now, when
we say the Black Church, it's a term that conventionally
refers to those members of seven historic independent African American
Protestant denominations. So you guys know this. This is the
National Baptist Convention USA National Baptist Convention of America, Progressive
(01:20):
National Baptist Convention, African Methodist Episcopal Church, the Ame African Methodists,
Episcopal Zion Church, Christian Methodists Episcopal Church, and the Church
of God in Christ Kojik.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
You guys know those terms.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Now Today, forty nine percent of Black millennials and forty
six percent of gen zers reported that they rarely or
never attend religious services.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
That's according to few research.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Now, despite this decline, African Americans are the most religious
racial group in the United States. And while all church
attendants is wlaning, Black churches are declining at a slower
pace than other religious groups. And it remains a very
powerful institution. So when you say them, hear them say
evangelicals in the mainstream media. The white is silent, but
(02:04):
we know that Black folks are certainly still going to church.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Now.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
The Black Church has always had a unique credo in
our community. After all, the institution has provided social services
to countless Black folks in areas related to finances, health, food,
and counseling. It has offered support and addressing socioeconomic and
social disparities experienced by many Black people. And there's no
question that the Black church is a parent of the
civil rights movement. After all, the Black Lives Matter movement
(02:31):
is definitely one of his heirs. However, some studies suggest
that the Black church can be a source of trauma, betrayal,
and abuse for some Black Americans. And today we want
a deep dive into church hurt. Now, while there's very
little data available, there are thousands of anecdotal evidence of
abuse that has taken place in the church, or abuse
(02:53):
executed or even excused by church leaders. Now, my guests
joining me today have testimony. Le's get into it. Miss
Sarah Yeri. She's a sixty three year old retired software
engineer who was married to an assistant pastor who didn't
share the same values as she did regarding marriage and faithfulness.
He worked on faithfulness, he stepped out, He stepped out
(03:16):
with members of their church, leading to their divorce. Now,
our younger guest, Naya Naomi. She's a twenty six year
old artist and entrepreneur who grew up with bishops as parents. Now,
though her experience with them was amazing, she still experienced
trauma and inappropriate encounters from other members within the church community.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
And they're both here to share their stories.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Now we know this is a very sensitive topic, and
I do want to offer a trigger warning to those
of you. We gave one off the top of the show,
but I want to reiterate that to those of you
who are watching, as we'll be getting into some very
sensitive areas of discussion. This is not something to degrade
the Black Church. So we ask for your respects in
your list years and compassion as we create a safe
(04:03):
space to share church church, which I'm sure a lot
of you have experienced, or if you haven't, you at
least know someone who's experienced it. So let's get into it.
I'm going to start with you, Miss Arrah. The keyword
in that sentence was faithfulness, So talk to me about
what happened with you and your marriage.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I met my ex at church when I moved to
a new state. He was at work. He worked at
the same place I did. I joined the bowling league.
He was on the bowling league, and I attended church
and there he was so but he was married.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Well, he was married when you met him.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
He was married when I met him. But after a
year or so, I asked a friend congregation member, where
was his wife. I hadn't seen his wife and.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
His wife had left him, so I was the second wife.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
And we were married in the church, big, big, big wedding.
I had a bishop, my uncle's a bishop. He married
us as well as the pastor of the church. And
even as father was my exest father was a minister,
so we had several ministers. So even before my wedding,
(05:28):
I must admit I knew he was a cheater, and
my father said, once a cheater, always a cheater. But
that was afterwards he told me that. But yes, he
was messing around with another girl in the church, so
we were both dating him at the same time.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Did you know that before you got married? I knew
that before I got married.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
So there was an incident that happened and I found
out he was messing around with her.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Let's say that was New Year's Eve. But in July
of that next year.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
He asked me to marry, so I thought, oh, he
picked me, but I'm been awnst to me he was
still with her as well, so I guess I'm married
into that. I guess you could say. But even there
was one time when his even his.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Father said, oh, maybe I shouldn't say that, that he
hadn't sold his oats because I was the second wife
and he got married young and he was in the
military that his father said he hadn't sold his oats yet,
he wasn't ready for marriage.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
He told me that before we got married, when we
were engaged, and I just shoved it off right and
got married anyway. So this person that he cheated with
before we got married was in the choir, so was I,
and talk about church hurt. So here I am at church,
up in the choir singing, and there's a girl cross
(06:55):
from me crying and crying her heart out. Once I
got engaged, and then I find out from other church
members she's crying because she wanted to be the missus.
And I'm like, this is really crazy that everybody in
the church knows. And she's here coming to church every Sunday,
you know, crying her heart out because her heart is broken.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
What do I do? I'm married guy. Anyway, as I figured,
he picked me. He picked me.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
But once a cheater, always a cheating in church. Outside
of church, I guess it didn't really matter. And here
I am thinking, oh, I got a preacher, Everything's gonna
be fine. I got a good man. But that wasn't
the case. And then when things got rocky, I left
the church. I didn't go to that church anymore. And
(07:46):
even though I had two little kids, you know, sometimes
by him. Sometimes I would let him take the kids
to church and I'd go to another church.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So, you guys are still married. We were still left
to She started attending another church. I started attending another church.
And I must say that one Sunday, the Sunday Eye
left the church and didn't come back anymore. The first
lady saw me crying in the bathroom. She told me
to dry up tears. That she's not happy all the
(08:20):
time either, but I don't see her looking like that.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Wow, that really hurt me. Talk about church. She's not
on my side, but issue on my side. She gave
me advice, keep your job, keep my job, keep your career,
because you never know what's going to happen with these pastors.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So the suggestion was basically, stay in an unhealthy relationship
because he's a preacher's part of the church and that's just.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Part of life. Yeah, wow, suck it up. So what
led to your ultimate separation, what led to my ultimates
operation was finding out the truth. But you'd already known
the truth. Well, he was cheating.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Before we got married, but then he married me, so
I thought maybe that was done. So I would saying
maybe he was done with the cheating part then and
was good for a couple of years to make the babies.
But then maybe it got Oh I know what it was.
He wanted to buy a bins And I think that
started it off because here we are with two young babies.
(09:31):
We had our house. It wasn't a brand new house,
something we could afford and not go broke on. And
he he came home, he was test driving her Mercedes.
I'm like, you know, we don't need a Mercedes. You know,
just because this person has Mercedes and that person has
Mercedes doesn't mean we have to.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
And I think that's what broke us. You said he
was test driving her Mercedes.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Oh no, no, no, no.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Mercedes. Okay, yeah, And I didn't agree with that. You know,
it was really more finance. It was finance, yeah, as
well as yeah, and then I found out he was cheating.
You know, I was cheating again, but that was with
someone else. That was with that girl's friend. Because that girl,
when we were engaged, she left the city. She moved
(10:18):
up to state. She moved out of state. She was
at distraught because she thought that was going to be
her man. She moved out of state, and so I
found out. I thought he was cheating, and I thought
it was with someone in a church, and I almost
hired an investigator, but I decided to be my own investigator,
and through my own investigation, I taped some calls and
(10:41):
I found out who it was.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Wow, did you ever confront these women? No, you never
had a conversation with them. I never had a conversation.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Yeah, there was another one I suspected that I caught
in the restroom one day and.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
She was like, no, it's not me. Who is it?
But did she tell you? She didn't tell she didn't.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I have so many questions for you, because that's that's
a lot to find out that you're You know, they
say Papa was a rolling stone, but pastor, it can
be a rolling stone too.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Ye, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
That is a common phrase that we know. So miss Sarah,
I have a lot of questions for you. But I
do want to bring in Naya a PK. No, a
lot of us in the black community know what a
PK is. That is a preacher's kid. You grew up
both your parents are bishops.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Well, my dad is a bishop now my mother no
longer serves a ministry full time in the same capacity
that she used to.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Okay, so what happened with you? Tell me your story.
So I have.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Kind of this dual experience with church, with religion, with faith,
and it starts for me as a baby because I
was born into the ministry that I grew up in.
And so my grandfather and grandmother were also pastors too,
and so I believe my dad and my aunt their
(12:04):
second generation. And so if at any point in time
I go into the ministry, I'll be a third generation.
And I know it's on my schedule, but I'm just
asking God to take his time with all of that.
So I'm born and Raisinghampton, Virginia, and I had a
great time growing up in ministry. I have to say
a lot of people say the p K experience is
like the pastor's kids are wildin they're partying, they're having
(12:28):
all this these crazy experiences, and that is just not mine.
Like I was serving in ministry. My sister and I
we let dance ministry. We sang on the praise team
at a certain point in time, I sitched over to
teaching some of the kids, and then assisting we're teaching
some of our teens, and so on and so forth.
(12:48):
So I have fabulous time in the forefront, but behind
the scenes, my youth was really plagued with a lot
of sexual abuse and a lot of sexual t So
if in the front, I am, I'm serving, I'm teaching,
I'm leading, I'm dancing, I'm understanding my spiritual gifts.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
I was molested at the age of six by.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
A woman who was the child of a family friend,
and they were members of our ministry, and so that
experience maybe went on for i'll say two years before
coming to my parents to tell them that this was happening.
And so you have to imagine what it's like for
(13:35):
a child to be experiencing this with someone that they know,
a woman that they know, a woman that they consider
like an older sister of sort, and having to sit
your parents down fearlessly and say, hey, Mom and Dad,
this has been happening, and something about it is wrong,
(13:58):
and I don't know what to do with what I've experienced.
Then thereafter, maybe two years later, I get assaulted at
a summer camp by more like a counselor who was
a woman as well.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And then a few years after that religious summer camp.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
No, it was not, it was a I don't want
to say the name of beause it's attached to organization.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
But at this camp and I had to do it again.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
I had to come forth and I had to say, Hey,
this is what's happening to me here at this camp
by you know some of the others here this, this
is something that's wrong. And now I'm starting to notice
the pattern, and I'm like, okay, God, this is weird.
So then maybe around the middle school time, age twelve thirteen, fourteen,
I'm like, okay, there's something that I need to do
(14:42):
to curb this from happening. So, if you know anything
about purity culture in church, we are teaching children about
waiting for sex until marriage, about valuing yourself, about valuing
the Word of God, about seeing your body as a
temple of the Holy Spirit, all those great and beautiful things.
And so in my mind, I'm like, okay, so I
(15:04):
can't I can be I.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Can be that this is okay. Yeah, So I'm gonna
take this pledge.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I'm gonna you know, we had this gala, you know,
we did a daddy daughter dance. My parents are then
having the sex talk with myself and my sisters because
this is a private event that they protected. So when
these events were happening, it's not like they went out
in public to make a statement or to say anything.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
It was really something that be kind of buried.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
But in our personal lives, we were having this conversation
about sex and with sexist what is supposed to be
into have any healthy way. And so I go through
with this purity ceremony thinking like, Okay, this is gonna
be a great thing. God is going to keep me
safe and protected from any of the harm and whatever,
and then I'm going to have an opportunity to give
my virginity away at some point if we fast forward
(15:51):
through life. I kept myself very, very busy in activities.
I just kept up my performance because I don't think
people talk enough about how sexual abuse to children changes.
It's PTSD like, it gives you a certain level of
trauma that you that if it is going on, dealt
(16:11):
with it will take.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Control of your life. It really will.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
And so I stayed busy, basketball, poetry, slams, I started
doing music, I started traveling, I was doing I was
doing very very well behind the scenes, very depressed, struggling
with sexuality, struggling with feeling comfortable in my skin, feel
like comfortable in my body. I gained a lot of
weight at a certain point in time. It was really
really tough, and if I fast for I'm trying to
(16:40):
give you the footnotes version, but you know, I guess
there was assault that happened while I was in college
before I moved to Georgia to transfer, because I transferred schools,
and there were so many things that I just continued
to bury and not really talk about because I didn't
feel like I had to save enough space to really
talk about it. Because of how the first situation was handled,
(17:02):
I just was like, if I take everything to the
Lord in prayer, at some point it will start making sense,
you know.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Can I asked? Of course?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
And you're saying, because of how the first situation was handled,
how was you were six years old when you were
violated by a woman who was in ministry. She wasn't
in ministry, they were just members. They were members, Okay,
so by another member of the church. This went on
for two years, which means you would have been eight
when you said something to your parents, And how did
(17:32):
your parents respond? How was the situation handled?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I will say they did. I think they did the
best that they could with what they had in the
information that they had.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
What I would have liked was for that family to
no longer be members or to no longer be in
close enough proximity to myself. Of course, Well what exactly
did your parents do? There were there were conversations that
we had with the parents too. You keep your children
(18:08):
over there and don't let them come near mind?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
And how old moved on? She was a like she
was a teenager, but she had to be like sixteen,
maybe time much older than myself.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Of course, so the parents talk to her parents and say,
keep your kids away from my kids pretty much.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, or keep this child that you have because they
have multiple childrees, but keep this one. You keep that
on there.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
And so you're still going to church and you're still
seeing the person who victimized you every Sunday and maybe
more than that. Were you one of those families that
you know in church two or three times a week?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, like because we were. But they were in full
time ministry for a very long time. So it's not
just like on Sunday, we're like we're at church on Sunday.
When we grew, because we weren't like a small church,
we grew were in an alliance of churches. So there
may have been five different churches that we were all
in partnership with. So if it's not just the one
(19:07):
service we're going to, sometimes it's two services that were
going to. And this person particularly wouldn't be at both
of them, but was definitely at our location.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I mean they used to braid our hair. Oh wow,
you know.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
So it was like, after this event is happening, they're
no longer were They're no longer in relationship with us
in the same way that they.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Used to be.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
How did that impact your relationship with church in your spirituality?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
I didn't feel like church was the safest place anymore.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
It was a safe place, but not the safest place
anymore because outside of this church experience, I'm still in
school every day with my peers and my friends, and
I was bullied quite a bit. Like I was, like
I said, I was a chubby kid. I have a
big and bright personality. I like to say that I'm charismatic,
but you know, like all those different things, and so
(20:04):
when you have a big personality and you're a little
girl with something to say, you know, it's not always
the most pleasant experience. And outside of school, so church
was kind of like, oh, this is fun for me,
and it was no longer just that yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
How would you describe your relationship with church and spirituality today?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
So I have a very healthy relationship with God, a
very healthy relationship with understanding spirituality and spiritual law. I
am trying to get back into the faith community by
going to church every Sunday. I hate it, but I
have become like one of the virtual church people. But
(20:48):
that's because of an experience that I had recently as
an adult with a bishop in the city that was
trying to have an inappropriate relationship with me.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
That really made me not trust clergy anymore. And that
was very hard for me because growing up around so
many amazing biblical scholars who live such clean lives, and
I've seen them live clean lives.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Do you know what I'm saying? To move to this.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
City transferring schools? Meet them out a car wash. We're
having a conversation actually about ministry, about what my parents
went through when they got divorced in twenty twenty and
I'm looking for a new church home and he's like, well,
come to my church and I'm like, okay, cool, this
is great.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
And because he's also.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
In of the finance space, I would always inquire just
knowledge about funding for you know, a business. How do
you get not necessarily loans, but how do you get
an investor to invest in your type of conversations. And
it came around to the top of twenty twenty three
where I was finishing up school. I had the fundraise
(21:54):
to finish my senior year, and I reached out just
to see if they would donate. They but then throughout
that spring semester there were so many inappropriate things that
were said or like proments, And at first I would
like bypass it, not even think too much about it.
They would like scroll up on my picture and oh
so pretty, oh gorgeous, You're doing such a great job,
and I'm like, okay, they're just being supportive, until one
(22:17):
day it's you're you're so fine, and I was like, uh, yeah,
director scratched.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
If he married, he is married?
Speaker 3 (22:25):
You're married, Yes, he's married, And so when you said this,
I changed the conversation and I'm like, well, I'm glad
you reached out because you know, I would love to
have your opinion on my business plan because I'm trying
to get an investor to invest in my beauty company
and my passion business.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
You know, investors don't really do that. Whatever they have
you and.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
They said, you know what, if you want some advice
or some information, here's my email, send it here, but
I'd rather just sponsor you.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And I was like, oh, so you want to sponsor
the business. I love that.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
You a shareholder, you want to finish all the increase
here my financial projections. Like I was really focused on this,
you know, because that's what I'm here for. And you've
been a mentor to me in this space, so let's
keep it there. And they went into a conversation about
how they've been waiting two years to have this conversation
with me, that they've been attracted to me since they
(23:14):
met me. This is a man, this is a man,
A married man, yes man, I'm a married man that
have to be in the minister.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yes man.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
And so if I fast forward and I don't do
anything with this person. There was no sexual engagement, no misconduct,
no conversations to that degree. But it made me so
uncomfortable that this person you know who I am, know
where I live, you know who my parents are. Now
you you've invited me to your house of worship, and
(23:45):
I don't even feel comfortable going there. So now I'm
trying to as an adult, I'm trying to find my
place in a new city where I don't know anybody,
and now I don't want.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
To party right.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
What I find is interesting about your story, Naya, is
you were violated as a child within your church community,
and now as a young adult, you know this married
pastor like it is violating your space again. This has
to sound familiar to you having married somebody who was
pimping in the pulpit. As we say, forgive the expression,
(24:22):
but the pain that that brings, you know, like it's
bookended and just inappropriate behavior and pain. And so this
is why I asked the people tuning it at home.
You know, when we talk about as black people, when
we talk about the black church, it has such predo
for us. It's such a sensitive subject.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
You know.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
One Black folks don't like you talk about our business publicly.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
You know, it's you know, like, sweep that under the rug.
We don't need to talk about that. And it's been
too much of that, you know, this is why we
have to have these conversations. So I feel it necessary
to pause here and just say to anybody out there,
especially children, under age children, if someone anyone, it doesn't
matter if they're church or not, if someone anyone is
making you feel uncomfortable, touching you inappropriately, saying something to
(25:05):
you inappropriately, looking at you wrong, where you feel inappropriately,
or you feel inappropriate or uncomfortable, tell and tell and
tell and tell and tell until somebody believes you. If
you tell one person, they don't handle it properly, then
you tell another person and you keep telling until somebody
rescues you, makes you feel safe, first and foremost, enough
of this, let's sweep it under the rug and let's
(25:27):
not talk about it. Yeah, I believe you when you
say your parents did the best that they could. But
the reality is, with respect to your parents, because I'm
not a parent, I imagine that had to be a
difficult situation for them, But the realities they failed you.
You know, they did not make you feel safe. And
you can love your parents and meet them with grace.
I love how you you know, do that and say
they did what they thought was best for me, and
(25:49):
I believe that. But as a child you, I just
wanted to, like, you know, picture six year old you
and just hold you and pull you out of that space,
because the assaults that you suffered after that and the
psychological damage after that had to be a lot for
you to carry. And still so just speaking to your humanity,
(26:11):
how are you today? And how's the relationship with your parents' day?
But first, how are you?
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I am okay, I'm in therapy. Good.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
And I made sure that that was something that I
did because for a very long time, I got into
this mindset where it's like I could take everything to
the Lord in prayer. I'm fine, I'm good, I'm gonna
perform well, I'm gonna do well. I'm gonna overcome the
blood of the Lamb. In the world of my testimony,
I've quoted all the scriptures, I've done all the things.
(26:41):
And when I found myself like self medicating, when I
found myself suicidal, when I found myself not feeling comfortable
in my skin as a woman, when I found myself questioned.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
It was like maybe this is maybe I need to
go talk to something.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Well, first of all, bravo to you because what you
survived and then had the discernment to say, you know,
I need to bring this to someone else.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
I need to talk to these feelings.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
It speaks so much us as black women, and you know,
as you're talking, because we are, you know, in modern times,
in this present day and age, in the year of
our Lord, you know, twenty twenty four, dealing with these things.
But I think about the sixties, you know, in the fifties,
and you know, generations are going across generations, how this
conversation has changed, and so much we put on black girls,
(27:38):
young black girls. It speaks to the strength that is
projected on us as children when we are just kids.
We are fragile, you know, and we know how cruel
this system of justice can be the black people. And
so we say, we ask young black girls to hold
their pain because we know how cruel white folks can
(27:59):
be in this stuff system that we can't even turn
over an abuse her to them. So we ask these
black girls to hold all this for themselves. And then
those sad black girls become sad black women, and they
raise sad Black daughters and the generational trauma that we.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Carry through the decades. It's so heavy.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
So I just love that you're breaking that saying no,
I am going to see a therapist, a religious therapist,
she is. Yeah, Yeah, I want to see therapists that
are religious because of church.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Heard. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
But I made that decision because though some of my
experiences may have for a season or a few taking
me out of community, it never took me away from
my relationship with God because I know who God is.
I've had far too many experiences confirming the reality is
through crisis to me, so I can't deny that. Yeah,
(28:51):
but when I was looking for a therapist, I wanted
somebody that had an unbiased opinion on life, not a
unbiased opinion on faith.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yes, that's good. That's good. Yeah, that's good. Therapy is good.
Therapy definitely helps. Even when I was going through my situation,
I went to therapy for the first time and it
really did help me recognize the strength within myself and
a focus on myself because as a black woman, we're
(29:21):
always taking care of other people and making sure our
spouse is okay, our children are okay, our parents are okay,
but what about us?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
You know, so that has.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Really helped me going forward because that was, you know,
twenty something years ago that that happened.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
So being here in a new city.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
And I'm still a church member as well, yes, and right,
so I've not given up on the Lord.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
God didn't hurt me. You know, it really wasn't the church.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
It was people within the church, even though some of
the church administrators did not, I feel support the victim.
That was always you know, we're going to support the pastor.
And that's something that in the Body of Christ really
has to stop. And I say that because in a
lot of ways, I have a personal belief about the
(30:14):
church not protecting women enough.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
For so long.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Growing up, I've seen a movement for women just fighting
to have a spot in the pulpit to preach the
word of God, you know what I'm saying. And I
think that in our day and time, that shouldn't even
be a conversation. Like if God calls you to be
a ministry, if God gave you a word, if God
puts you in a position to do something, then a
woman should be able to do just that. Because there's
nowhere in the text that limits went from doing that.
(30:40):
So that's one part, But there's too much of trying
to protect the man of God, and I don't understand
is it because he is a man or because of
this belief about headship and how things are supposed to be, Like,
is it that or is it just because we don't
want to protect women? And so there needs to be
(31:01):
a It feels like there's going to be a time
for me too, But it's kind of because we're in
this season of like exposure, Like so many people are
getting exposed in this season, and it's time for it. Yeah,
So I really want whoever is listening, if you're in
(31:25):
the faith community, we need to start protecting each other
and holding each other accountable for the bad behavior that
does go on. There are these other conversations that happen
about forgiveness, and you know, for the victim, you got
to forgive your abuser and all these other things. And
that's very true. But I am of the belief that
at some point that has to be God's business, and
(31:47):
your healing and your journey to wholeness needs to be yours.
And the first thing that we tell victims does not
need to be a conversation on forgiveness. It needs to
be a conversation on what do you need and how
can we support you in working throughout the season of
trauma that you're experiencing right now.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I mean, I'm so impressed with you, Naya, because you've
done you're doing the work, you know.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
And it's so clear.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
And I love that you said that we do not
start with forgiveness, like first, you have to hold yourself,
hold your own pain and what you've gone through. And
I think that's so important for our audience to hear,
especially because I know there are people out there. You
all are brave enough to share your story, but there
are so many people who carry shame, who carry hurt pain.
(32:35):
They don't want to disrupt their family. They don't want
to make their parents feel bad for not sharing something
that they went through. They don't want to become the
you know, the whispered about person in the church, and
so all of that. I love that you're encouraging people, Hey,
prioritize yourself and what do you need right in this moment,
because you are the victim here where you're the survivor.
(32:58):
You are a survivor, and I think the uniqueness about
your story too, is that it was a woman who
victimiz you initially, and some people don't think that can happen.
You know, you think, oh, it's a girl, so she'll be.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Fine, right, or they think that or they'll think that,
like the kids are just experimenting, right, yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
It's like absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
And then there was to compound the fact that the
event was even happening, there was a lot of what
you tell your parents, this is going to happen. If
you tell your parents that's gonna it was very there
was an air of violence that hung through it as well.
And then there were there was a lot of questions
around sexuality or what is sex supposed to look like?
(33:42):
Because now that I've come and I've told my parents
about this, I'm still trying to figure out, well, sex
with women is not supposed to be a thing, right
or are men not supposed to do this with each
other too? And so being violated at that age it
created a lot of scenarios about what is and what
is not supposed to be right.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
And I just I have to say that is not
my belief.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
I think anyone out there, if you are a same
gender loving person, I do not support an institution telling
you that you're wrong or terrible. I you know, it's
not my place. I am not God, So I don't
want anyone to feel like I'm echoing that thought at all.
And people who are in church who get told that
over and over, like I can't even if I want
to supertend I don't like men, But imagine going someplace
(34:29):
where they're telling me every day the you know, if
you like a man is wrong, and that is that
does not honor God. And so not only do I
have to not pretend that I don't like men, but
I gotta pretend to like women. That's what we're asking
some people to do. So I hear you know your story,
and I just I want everyone to know like church
is a place where you suldeel welcome. But I also
(34:49):
take both your point. You said something, miss Sarah, it
was not the church that hurt you, it was people
who hurt you.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Well, that is the testimony of everybody. You know.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
The church is at best a building, you know, biblically,
churches anywhere you gather together in My name, which empowers people.
And so for a lot of people who say, oh, well,
I don't go to church because a person does this
and they do that, it's like, well, you've been you
got food poison before, but you still eat.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
So we are not trying to convince people.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
If you choose to go to church, go to church,
if you don't, whatever your choices.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
This is not the place for judgment.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
But we wanted to provide a safe space where you
all can give your testimony about what happened to you.
So I grew up in smaller churches. I did not
grow up in a mega church. Yes, but I do
want to talk about some things on the hills of
(35:44):
your very sensitive testimony about what you both survived. I
do want to talk about the streets are talking. Okay,
y'all already know the streets are talking talking, okay, So
on the on the heels of your very sensitive testimony,
I do want to shift us to sum up the
things that the streets are talking about when it comes
to church. And I know a lot of people will
have a lot of opinions about this conversation, so I
(36:05):
just will keep reiterating how grateful we are to you
all for sharing your testimony. I grew up in a
smaller church and my mom didn't go every Sunday so
I mostly went to church with my grandmother and you know,
children's church and choir practice, and so I didn't experience
church church. But as I got older, I saw some
messaging in church that just did not align with my values.
(36:28):
And so when I see these megachurches that are run
like businesses, you know, like corporations, and there are things
that happen in megachurches.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
That dominate the headlines.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Sometimes the people we're gonna talk about all happen to
be based in Atlanta.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
But this exists everywhere.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
But Bishop Eddie Long, it was a pastor here New
Birth Church in Atlanta. We are all a UC people here,
and so when I was at Clark, like new Birth
had a step team like they were very present in
the Atlanta University. So well, in twenty ten, and Bishop Long,
I do want to say, has passed away, and so
(37:06):
I just want to acknowledge that as we talk about him.
But in twenty ten, four young men accused him of
using his position to coerce them into sexual relationships.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
So there was a settlement.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
The lawsuits were quietly settled out of court, leading to
continued speculation and loss of trust from many at his congregation.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
In full disclosure, no passor Jamal.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Here is Bryant More House grad, but he did publicly
admit to infidelity during his marriage, leading to a divorce
with he and his wife, who was a cast member
on Real Housewives Giselle Bryant. But he has now gone
on to lead New Birth Missionary Baptist Church, and he
himself has a podcast, and you know, his wife has
(37:48):
moved on. Seems like a good time to point out
that these pastors are not supreme beings. You know, they
are sentient human beings like the rest of us. They
are men first, and so I think you have to
view them as that. Kreflow. Dollar has quite a few
challenges with him. I'll talk about the money mismanagement first.
There was a private jet controversy in twenty fifteen where
(38:10):
he requested sixty five million dollars in donations to purchase
a golf string G six fifty private jet for personal
and ministry use. This sparked naturally widespread criticism. But then
there's just the issue of this prosperity gospel. You know,
he's long been associated with that belief, and it's led
to allegations that he exploits his congregation's generosity for luxury
(38:36):
and cars and other things. What stands out to me
about Kreflow Dollar. I don't know if you guys remember,
but in twenty twelve, his fifteen year old daughter told
an emergency dispatcher that she was punched and choked by Dollar,
who's a televangelist. She says she also felt threatened in
(38:57):
the house and that it was not the first time
it happened. This is all according to a nine to
one to one call. His nineteen year old daughter later
affirmed those accusations, even though Dollar himself denied them, but
the nineteen year old daughter said that no, that is
something that was true. Charges word later dropped after he
(39:17):
agreed to anger management counseling. So I say that to
say that just because someone is a preacher or pastor
does not absolve them from accountability. And I think when
it comes to these megachurches, we just have to be
careful how closely we align finances and the trappings of
(39:42):
wealth building with Christ, with God, whatever God you worship.
How do y'all feel about megachurches and how you know
they operate?
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Well?
Speaker 3 (39:54):
I think all churches they are a business, and I
know even in the smaller churches, I've been asked to.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Show my paste uff. Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
I've had a minister come to me and say, you know, well,
you know how much I make, but I don't know
how much you make.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
And I'm like, well, I don't work for the church, right,
you work for the church. Did you show your pace?
Speaker 3 (40:17):
I did not show my paste up because he thought
that I was not giving ten percent. And I know
people who say that they don't go to church anymore
because they were asked to give more. They were even
called into a meeting after church. I think that was
a megachurch, and they pointed out the people who the
(40:38):
couples who.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
They thought were coming in church.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
You know, look at all fine and yeah, driving great cars,
but you're only giving five dollars.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Hey, We're going to pull you in this.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Meeting and teach you about tithing because you should be
giving us ten percent of your check.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Now. I believe in tithing, and I have tithes before.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Unfortunately I'm not tithing right now as a retired person,
but I do believe in tithing. I think I have
been blessed with tithing. So I know these big churches,
even Krypto dollars church, they require you to show your
pay stuff so they know that you're given ten percent.
(41:20):
And so I have a coworker who attended that church
and she says she had no problem with it because
that kept her disciplined. Yeah, so that's a different way
to look at things. But yeah, church is a business.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah right, I'm going to ask you to me that
is invasive. I give what I give with the free heart,
and it's really not up to somebody to regulate that
to me.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
But what your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (41:46):
So church churches are five on one see three nonprofit organizations.
So when we say they're businesses, they're actually businesses.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
And which also means they cannot take a political stance.
When I have thoughts about that as well, but go ahead.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
They they should not able, you should not legalot And
so when we're concerned in fact there are businesses, you
also have to consider the fact that every religious organization
does need to have some form of structure. Without structure,
there's chaos. And so with the structure creates an opportunity
(42:18):
for us to do this kind of cleanly. So when
you have situations or opportunities where minister ministries are finding
ways to do these loophole things where they're asking people
for their pay stuffs and asking people for X y
z amount of money for these projects. I know growing
up because my home church is very it's just very beautiful,
(42:40):
huge cathedral like building that you've grown up in that
is breaking down, and that throughout the years continued to
break down because it took a lot of money to
sustain it, to maintain it. And then you also have
to consider you are maintaining a building, You're keeping lights on,
your key, being people warm or cold every Sunday. You're
(43:02):
also paying staff, You're acquiring donations to feed the homeless
on Saturday mornings. You're garnering resources for families. You're paying
people's rent, you're paying people's bills, you're putting full on tables.
The money that's coming in, I know, personally for my family,
a majority of our income was not really it was
(43:23):
coming from my parents extra endeavors, the books they wrote,
the speaking engagement they took up. As we begin to grow,
there was an opportunity for them to then be getting
paid for ministry, but my parents was working jobs until
we began to grow to a certain size to where
the ministry was able to sustain us and then sustain
(43:43):
the staff that we were able to bring on. And
we believed in paying people well because if you're going
to be doing ministry full time or ministry at any capacity,
then you don't need to be struggling to make in
meat while you're in the house of God trying to
serve Him and trying to serve this organization. Yeah, so
it's a both end thing. I do think it is disgusting, however,
when people get exploited on tithing, because tithing is a
(44:07):
principle of the Christian faith, and so when you are
participating in that, that does needs to be to your
discretion because you do have to answer to you a pastor.
You got to answer to God at the end of
the day for how you are participating and how you
are serving and doing this thing.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
And so I think that's really important context. So I
love that, Yeah, broke that down for how these churches operate.
For people who do tie them, I want to know
where their funds are growing, and I think it has
to be open accountability, you know, open your books to
the congregation so people can see how money is being spent,
their money that they're contributing. I want to get into
the political angle of this because the Black church in
(44:45):
particular has always been a fundamental part of our I'll
say politics because that's how they qualify it. But really
how we look at it is our quality of life.
You know, we are not a lot of black people,
particularly women who work in the church, you know, in
forms of service.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
It is not that we're political. We are working towards
harm reduction. You know.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
We are on the side of goodness and righteousness through
this church to demand is this country treat us well?
And so that sometimes those two things marry. What I'm
seeing that concerns me today is right wing extremists weaponize
that and so a lot of churches are friendly or
friendlier to right wing talking points.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
I have heard it myself personally.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
A lot of people impart these I think extremist views
on our politics. I have seen I'll say the devil
himself show up in church. You know, because you see
a lot of white evangelicals. They don't often say in
the media when they say evangelicals, the white is silent.
But when Donald Trump came and spoke to I think
(45:54):
it was Liberty University and was reading from the Bible.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
We know who this man is.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
And he was literally saying, he read from two Corinthians.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
I'm reading from two Koreans, right exactly. So anybody even knew,
you know, you don't even say that you know it's
Second Corinthians. And he didn't even know.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
And I see all of these people who don't even
go to church but call themselves evangelicals. It has become
a right wing political arm and I see that penetrating
some of the black spaces I'm at church. I'm curious
how y'all feel about this, y'all. I may literally he
was my a man corner here, but I was at
a church in Maryland, outside of Maryland, and the pastor
was talking about it was a ballid initiative on marijuana.
(46:39):
And the pastor is a predominantly black church, and he really,
I ain't never seen anybody but black folks there. So
when we say predominantly, I mean it was a black
church at black folks, right exactly. So he was talking
about legislation. It was a ballid initiative to legalize marijuana,
and he was saying, like how awful this is, And
he was saying, why would y'all want to vote for
(47:01):
something that takes you out of your right mind, and
y'all know what to do with this. And I'm looking
around at this congregation like a lot of y'all sons
and daughters are caught up in this very precarious, unforgiven
criminal justice system over a dining bag of weed. And
this black man is looking out to these black folks
saying support a Republican agenda. It is baffling to me,
(47:23):
like there has to be some level of intellectual curiosity
when it comes to church to not just listen to that.
But so often people say, well, y'all heard what bitcham said,
this is what we gonna do, or y'all heard past
and say this, and this is what we're gonna do.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
And I just I that is some of the challenges.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
I think there are a lot of challenges within the
black church that keep us often handicapped and hurt, to
keep us hurt as a people in the community, and
some of that stems from churches. And to keep it
a buck, a lot of these right wing people slide
money in these pastors pockets to enforce them or encourage them, right,
(47:59):
to nudge them to pairt they're talking point. So I
just it makes me uncomfortable when I when I see
it and when I hear it go ahead.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
I do think there needs to be some kind of
separation between church and state that does need to be constitutionally.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
It has to be a separation church.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
Yeah, but we are as human people that we're existing
every day, like those conversations start to blend, of course,
and so that there's need to be that separation to
a company that I think there's a lot of times
where we can be so heavenly minded that we're no
earthly good, and so conversations that come up about what
you're talking about with your criminalized in marijuana, or the
(48:39):
abortion conversation, or just other conversations that might exist. We
try to put ourselves in a high and mighty seat
instead of thinking about what every day people need, and
it separates us so far to where you may want
to do right by the Lord, but now you now
(49:00):
because of what you think is going to make God proud,
has you siding a team that doesn't care about you.
And so there needs to be a way to kind
of separate those two when we're talking about politics and faith.
And then I want to encourage people to pray, pray,
pray and really inquire with the Lord about what side
(49:21):
of history you want to be on.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
M I love that. Are you going to go into ministry?
Have you made a decision?
Speaker 3 (49:32):
I'm serious because like I just, I exist in these
two different worlds about being in the arts and entertainment
space and about you know, being an entrepreneur to where
God is going to always be a part of everything
that I do.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
So when it comes out, it's just coming out. Yeah, yeah,
I get that. I get that.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Well, I'm really grateful to you, ladies. I'll say this
about my own outlook on church. And you know, in
the Jewish community there are plenty of fe people who
identify as Jewish, but they may not worship, they may
not go, but they're culturally Jewish. I am culturally a
member of a Black church, So you know, I don't know,
but you know, I was raised in it.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
I know no other way. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
As well, when I hear these you know, white folks
out here, parent of these right wing talking points, it's
like you ain't about to out Christian black folks. Also,
I have a curiosity about history, and I you know,
have literally gone to Ghana and seeing the way that
Christianity was literally beat into us, which I think more
of us have to, you know, know and understand how
(50:34):
we came to adopt this religion. And so I you know,
I'm not discouraging anyone from not being a believer.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
You know, I think whatever works for you.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
I just know I have a lot of questions that
I that I ponder. It's not a struggle, because you know,
it's I think curiosity is a healthy thing, but I
definitely ponder it. So anytime we talk about church, we
get a lot of comments, So I would ask that
everybody be respectful in the comments and thank these women
for being bold enough to share their testimony. I think
(51:05):
this is a conversation that will be ongoing here at
a cross generations because the way that we relate to
church has certainly changed across generations, and it's changing now.
So however, you worship, we are not here to put
down the Black Church. I definitely acknowledge the role the
Black Church has played with us here in America and
our politics and how we live our lives, and also
(51:27):
acknowledge there are many of you who have been hurt
by the church, and many of you who don't attend church,
and many of you who are of other religions, including
the Muslim faith, Hindu faith, however you worship. So this
is a safe space here for everybody. But we chose
this time to talk about an issue that impacts so
many of us. So I thank you for tuning in.
I think these wonderful people. I just want to say
(51:48):
to you again, Naya, you are a big, bold personality here.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
We welcome that.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
We don't ask anybody to shrink, and Miss Sarah, I'm
so happy here after what you went through with your
ex husband, you nothing about your spirit seems damage. You know,
you still seem pleasant and joyful and black joy is defiant.
So I celebrate that every time I see it. So
thank you, ladies, and thank you all for tuning in
at home to this episode. And we will be back
(52:15):
next week with yet another episode of Across Generations. I'm
Your Host, Tiffany Cross. Across Generations is brought to you
by Will Packer and will Packer Media in partnership with
iHeart Podcast. I'm Your Host and executive producer Tiffany D.
Cross from Idea to Launch Productions Executive producer Carla willmeris
produced by Mandy Bee and Angel Forte editing, sound design
(52:37):
and mixed by Gaza Forte. For original music by Epidemic Sound
Video editing by Kason Alexander and Courtney Deni.
Welcome to Across Generations, where the voices of Black women unite.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm your host, Tiffany Cross. Tiffany Cross.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
We gather a season elder myself as the middle generation,
and a vibrant young soul for engaging intergenerational conversations. Prepared
to engage or hear perspectives that no one else is happy.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
You know how we do. We create magic, Create magic.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Hi, everybody, welcome to another episode of Across Generations. I
am your host, Tiffany Cross, and today we're talking about
a very sensitive subject, and that's church art. Now, undoubtedly
most of you are familiar with the ubiquitous claims of
abuse against the Catholic Church, and we should note the
cases of clergy abuse among African Americans most certainly exists,
but are especially under reported. However, today we're going to
(00:57):
talk about the Black Church and the various of abuse
that permeate this particular wing of various denominations. Now, when
we say the Black Church, it's a term that conventionally
refers to those members of seven historic independent African American
Protestant denominations. So you guys know this. This is the
National Baptist Convention USA National Baptist Convention of America, Progressive
(01:20):
National Baptist Convention, African Methodist Episcopal Church, the Ame African Methodists,
Episcopal Zion Church, Christian Methodists Episcopal Church, and the Church
of God in Christ Kojik.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
You guys know those terms.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Now Today, forty nine percent of Black millennials and forty
six percent of gen zers reported that they rarely or
never attend religious services.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
That's according to few research.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Now, despite this decline, African Americans are the most religious
racial group in the United States. And while all church
attendants is wlaning, Black churches are declining at a slower
pace than other religious groups. And it remains a very
powerful institution. So when you say them, hear them say
evangelicals in the mainstream media. The white is silent, but
(02:04):
we know that Black folks are certainly still going to church.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Now.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
The Black Church has always had a unique credo in
our community. After all, the institution has provided social services
to countless Black folks in areas related to finances, health, food,
and counseling. It has offered support and addressing socioeconomic and
social disparities experienced by many Black people. And there's no
question that the Black church is a parent of the
civil rights movement. After all, the Black Lives Matter movement
(02:31):
is definitely one of his heirs. However, some studies suggest
that the Black church can be a source of trauma, betrayal,
and abuse for some Black Americans. And today we want
a deep dive into church hurt. Now, while there's very
little data available, there are thousands of anecdotal evidence of
abuse that has taken place in the church, or abuse
(02:53):
executed or even excused by church leaders. Now, my guests
joining me today have testimony. Le's get into it. Miss
Sarah Yeri. She's a sixty three year old retired software
engineer who was married to an assistant pastor who didn't
share the same values as she did regarding marriage and faithfulness.
He worked on faithfulness, he stepped out, He stepped out
(03:16):
with members of their church, leading to their divorce. Now,
our younger guest, Naya Naomi. She's a twenty six year
old artist and entrepreneur who grew up with bishops as parents. Now,
though her experience with them was amazing, she still experienced
trauma and inappropriate encounters from other members within the church community.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
And they're both here to share their stories.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Now we know this is a very sensitive topic, and
I do want to offer a trigger warning to those
of you. We gave one off the top of the show,
but I want to reiterate that to those of you
who are watching, as we'll be getting into some very
sensitive areas of discussion. This is not something to degrade
the Black Church. So we ask for your respects in
your list years and compassion as we create a safe
(04:03):
space to share church church, which I'm sure a lot
of you have experienced, or if you haven't, you at
least know someone who's experienced it. So let's get into it.
I'm going to start with you, Miss Arrah. The keyword
in that sentence was faithfulness, So talk to me about
what happened with you and your marriage.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I met my ex at church when I moved to
a new state. He was at work. He worked at
the same place I did. I joined the bowling league.
He was on the bowling league, and I attended church
and there he was so but he was married.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Well, he was married when you met him.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
He was married when I met him. But after a
year or so, I asked a friend congregation member, where
was his wife. I hadn't seen his wife and.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
His wife had left him, so I was the second wife.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
And we were married in the church, big, big, big wedding.
I had a bishop, my uncle's a bishop. He married
us as well as the pastor of the church. And
even as father was my exest father was a minister,
so we had several ministers. So even before my wedding,
(05:28):
I must admit I knew he was a cheater, and
my father said, once a cheater, always a cheater. But
that was afterwards he told me that. But yes, he
was messing around with another girl in the church, so
we were both dating him at the same time.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Did you know that before you got married? I knew
that before I got married.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
So there was an incident that happened and I found
out he was messing around with her.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Let's say that was New Year's Eve. But in July
of that next year.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
He asked me to marry, so I thought, oh, he
picked me, but I'm been awnst to me he was
still with her as well, so I guess I'm married
into that. I guess you could say. But even there
was one time when his even his.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Father said, oh, maybe I shouldn't say that, that he
hadn't sold his oats because I was the second wife
and he got married young and he was in the
military that his father said he hadn't sold his oats yet,
he wasn't ready for marriage.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
He told me that before we got married, when we
were engaged, and I just shoved it off right and
got married anyway. So this person that he cheated with
before we got married was in the choir, so was I,
and talk about church hurt. So here I am at church,
up in the choir singing, and there's a girl cross
(06:55):
from me crying and crying her heart out. Once I
got engaged, and then I find out from other church
members she's crying because she wanted to be the missus.
And I'm like, this is really crazy that everybody in
the church knows. And she's here coming to church every Sunday,
you know, crying her heart out because her heart is broken.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
What do I do? I'm married guy. Anyway, as I figured,
he picked me. He picked me.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
But once a cheater, always a cheating in church. Outside
of church, I guess it didn't really matter. And here
I am thinking, oh, I got a preacher, Everything's gonna
be fine. I got a good man. But that wasn't
the case. And then when things got rocky, I left
the church. I didn't go to that church anymore. And
(07:46):
even though I had two little kids, you know, sometimes
by him. Sometimes I would let him take the kids
to church and I'd go to another church.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So, you guys are still married. We were still left
to She started attending another church. I started attending another church.
And I must say that one Sunday, the Sunday Eye
left the church and didn't come back anymore. The first
lady saw me crying in the bathroom. She told me
to dry up tears. That she's not happy all the
(08:20):
time either, but I don't see her looking like that.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Wow, that really hurt me. Talk about church. She's not
on my side, but issue on my side. She gave
me advice, keep your job, keep my job, keep your career,
because you never know what's going to happen with these pastors.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So the suggestion was basically, stay in an unhealthy relationship
because he's a preacher's part of the church and that's just.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Part of life. Yeah, wow, suck it up. So what
led to your ultimate separation, what led to my ultimates
operation was finding out the truth. But you'd already known
the truth. Well, he was cheating.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Before we got married, but then he married me, so
I thought maybe that was done. So I would saying
maybe he was done with the cheating part then and
was good for a couple of years to make the babies.
But then maybe it got Oh I know what it was.
He wanted to buy a bins And I think that
started it off because here we are with two young babies.
(09:31):
We had our house. It wasn't a brand new house,
something we could afford and not go broke on. And
he he came home, he was test driving her Mercedes.
I'm like, you know, we don't need a Mercedes. You know,
just because this person has Mercedes and that person has
Mercedes doesn't mean we have to.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
And I think that's what broke us. You said he
was test driving her Mercedes.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Oh no, no, no, no.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Mercedes. Okay, yeah, And I didn't agree with that. You know,
it was really more finance. It was finance, yeah, as
well as yeah, and then I found out he was cheating.
You know, I was cheating again, but that was with
someone else. That was with that girl's friend. Because that girl,
when we were engaged, she left the city. She moved
(10:18):
up to state. She moved out of state. She was
at distraught because she thought that was going to be
her man. She moved out of state, and so I
found out. I thought he was cheating, and I thought
it was with someone in a church, and I almost
hired an investigator, but I decided to be my own investigator,
and through my own investigation, I taped some calls and
(10:41):
I found out who it was.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Wow, did you ever confront these women? No, you never
had a conversation with them. I never had a conversation.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Yeah, there was another one I suspected that I caught
in the restroom one day and.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
She was like, no, it's not me. Who is it?
But did she tell you? She didn't tell she didn't.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I have so many questions for you, because that's that's
a lot to find out that you're You know, they
say Papa was a rolling stone, but pastor, it can
be a rolling stone too.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Ye, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
That is a common phrase that we know. So miss Sarah,
I have a lot of questions for you. But I
do want to bring in Naya a PK. No, a
lot of us in the black community know what a
PK is. That is a preacher's kid. You grew up
both your parents are bishops.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Well, my dad is a bishop now my mother no
longer serves a ministry full time in the same capacity
that she used to.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Okay, so what happened with you? Tell me your story.
So I have.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Kind of this dual experience with church, with religion, with faith,
and it starts for me as a baby because I
was born into the ministry that I grew up in.
And so my grandfather and grandmother were also pastors too,
and so I believe my dad and my aunt their
(12:04):
second generation. And so if at any point in time
I go into the ministry, I'll be a third generation.
And I know it's on my schedule, but I'm just
asking God to take his time with all of that.
So I'm born and Raisinghampton, Virginia, and I had a
great time growing up in ministry. I have to say
a lot of people say the p K experience is
like the pastor's kids are wildin they're partying, they're having
(12:28):
all this these crazy experiences, and that is just not mine.
Like I was serving in ministry. My sister and I
we let dance ministry. We sang on the praise team
at a certain point in time, I sitched over to
teaching some of the kids, and then assisting we're teaching
some of our teens, and so on and so forth.
(12:48):
So I have fabulous time in the forefront, but behind
the scenes, my youth was really plagued with a lot
of sexual abuse and a lot of sexual t So
if in the front, I am, I'm serving, I'm teaching,
I'm leading, I'm dancing, I'm understanding my spiritual gifts.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
I was molested at the age of six by.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
A woman who was the child of a family friend,
and they were members of our ministry, and so that
experience maybe went on for i'll say two years before
coming to my parents to tell them that this was happening.
And so you have to imagine what it's like for
(13:35):
a child to be experiencing this with someone that they know,
a woman that they know, a woman that they consider
like an older sister of sort, and having to sit
your parents down fearlessly and say, hey, Mom and Dad,
this has been happening, and something about it is wrong,
(13:58):
and I don't know what to do with what I've experienced.
Then thereafter, maybe two years later, I get assaulted at
a summer camp by more like a counselor who was
a woman as well.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And then a few years after that religious summer camp.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
No, it was not, it was a I don't want
to say the name of beause it's attached to organization.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
But at this camp and I had to do it again.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
I had to come forth and I had to say, Hey,
this is what's happening to me here at this camp
by you know some of the others here this, this
is something that's wrong. And now I'm starting to notice
the pattern, and I'm like, okay, God, this is weird.
So then maybe around the middle school time, age twelve thirteen, fourteen,
I'm like, okay, there's something that I need to do
(14:42):
to curb this from happening. So, if you know anything
about purity culture in church, we are teaching children about
waiting for sex until marriage, about valuing yourself, about valuing
the Word of God, about seeing your body as a
temple of the Holy Spirit, all those great and beautiful things.
And so in my mind, I'm like, okay, so I
(15:04):
can't I can be I.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Can be that this is okay. Yeah, So I'm gonna
take this pledge.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I'm gonna you know, we had this gala, you know,
we did a daddy daughter dance. My parents are then
having the sex talk with myself and my sisters because
this is a private event that they protected. So when
these events were happening, it's not like they went out
in public to make a statement or to say anything.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
It was really something that be kind of buried.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
But in our personal lives, we were having this conversation
about sex and with sexist what is supposed to be
into have any healthy way. And so I go through
with this purity ceremony thinking like, Okay, this is gonna
be a great thing. God is going to keep me
safe and protected from any of the harm and whatever,
and then I'm going to have an opportunity to give
my virginity away at some point if we fast forward
(15:51):
through life. I kept myself very, very busy in activities.
I just kept up my performance because I don't think
people talk enough about how sexual abuse to children changes.
It's PTSD like, it gives you a certain level of
trauma that you that if it is going on, dealt
(16:11):
with it will take.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Control of your life. It really will.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
And so I stayed busy, basketball, poetry, slams, I started
doing music, I started traveling, I was doing I was
doing very very well behind the scenes, very depressed, struggling
with sexuality, struggling with feeling comfortable in my skin, feel
like comfortable in my body. I gained a lot of
weight at a certain point in time. It was really
really tough, and if I fast for I'm trying to
(16:40):
give you the footnotes version, but you know, I guess
there was assault that happened while I was in college
before I moved to Georgia to transfer, because I transferred schools,
and there were so many things that I just continued
to bury and not really talk about because I didn't
feel like I had to save enough space to really
talk about it. Because of how the first situation was handled,
(17:02):
I just was like, if I take everything to the
Lord in prayer, at some point it will start making sense,
you know.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Can I asked? Of course?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
And you're saying, because of how the first situation was handled,
how was you were six years old when you were
violated by a woman who was in ministry. She wasn't
in ministry, they were just members. They were members, Okay,
so by another member of the church. This went on
for two years, which means you would have been eight
when you said something to your parents, And how did
(17:32):
your parents respond? How was the situation handled?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I will say they did. I think they did the
best that they could with what they had in the
information that they had.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
What I would have liked was for that family to
no longer be members or to no longer be in
close enough proximity to myself. Of course, Well what exactly
did your parents do? There were there were conversations that
we had with the parents too. You keep your children
(18:08):
over there and don't let them come near mind?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
And how old moved on? She was a like she
was a teenager, but she had to be like sixteen,
maybe time much older than myself.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Of course, so the parents talk to her parents and say,
keep your kids away from my kids pretty much.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, or keep this child that you have because they
have multiple childrees, but keep this one. You keep that
on there.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
And so you're still going to church and you're still
seeing the person who victimized you every Sunday and maybe
more than that. Were you one of those families that
you know in church two or three times a week?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, like because we were. But they were in full
time ministry for a very long time. So it's not
just like on Sunday, we're like we're at church on Sunday.
When we grew, because we weren't like a small church,
we grew were in an alliance of churches. So there
may have been five different churches that we were all
in partnership with. So if it's not just the one
(19:07):
service we're going to, sometimes it's two services that were
going to. And this person particularly wouldn't be at both
of them, but was definitely at our location.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I mean they used to braid our hair. Oh wow,
you know.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
So it was like, after this event is happening, they're
no longer were They're no longer in relationship with us
in the same way that they.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Used to be.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
How did that impact your relationship with church in your spirituality?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
I didn't feel like church was the safest place anymore.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
It was a safe place, but not the safest place
anymore because outside of this church experience, I'm still in
school every day with my peers and my friends, and
I was bullied quite a bit. Like I was, like
I said, I was a chubby kid. I have a
big and bright personality. I like to say that I'm charismatic,
but you know, like all those different things, and so
(20:04):
when you have a big personality and you're a little
girl with something to say, you know, it's not always
the most pleasant experience. And outside of school, so church
was kind of like, oh, this is fun for me,
and it was no longer just that yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
How would you describe your relationship with church and spirituality today?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
So I have a very healthy relationship with God, a
very healthy relationship with understanding spirituality and spiritual law. I
am trying to get back into the faith community by
going to church every Sunday. I hate it, but I
have become like one of the virtual church people. But
(20:48):
that's because of an experience that I had recently as
an adult with a bishop in the city that was
trying to have an inappropriate relationship with me.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
That really made me not trust clergy anymore. And that
was very hard for me because growing up around so
many amazing biblical scholars who live such clean lives, and
I've seen them live clean lives.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Do you know what I'm saying? To move to this.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
City transferring schools? Meet them out a car wash. We're
having a conversation actually about ministry, about what my parents
went through when they got divorced in twenty twenty and
I'm looking for a new church home and he's like, well,
come to my church and I'm like, okay, cool, this
is great.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
And because he's also.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
In of the finance space, I would always inquire just
knowledge about funding for you know, a business. How do
you get not necessarily loans, but how do you get
an investor to invest in your type of conversations. And
it came around to the top of twenty twenty three
where I was finishing up school. I had the fundraise
(21:54):
to finish my senior year, and I reached out just
to see if they would donate. They but then throughout
that spring semester there were so many inappropriate things that
were said or like proments, And at first I would
like bypass it, not even think too much about it.
They would like scroll up on my picture and oh
so pretty, oh gorgeous, You're doing such a great job,
and I'm like, okay, they're just being supportive, until one
(22:17):
day it's you're you're so fine, and I was like, uh, yeah,
director scratched.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
If he married, he is married?
Speaker 3 (22:25):
You're married, Yes, he's married, And so when you said this,
I changed the conversation and I'm like, well, I'm glad
you reached out because you know, I would love to
have your opinion on my business plan because I'm trying
to get an investor to invest in my beauty company
and my passion business.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
You know, investors don't really do that. Whatever they have
you and.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
They said, you know what, if you want some advice
or some information, here's my email, send it here, but
I'd rather just sponsor you.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And I was like, oh, so you want to sponsor
the business. I love that.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
You a shareholder, you want to finish all the increase
here my financial projections. Like I was really focused on this,
you know, because that's what I'm here for. And you've
been a mentor to me in this space, so let's
keep it there. And they went into a conversation about
how they've been waiting two years to have this conversation
with me, that they've been attracted to me since they
(23:14):
met me. This is a man, this is a man,
A married man, yes man, I'm a married man that
have to be in the minister.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yes man.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
And so if I fast forward and I don't do
anything with this person. There was no sexual engagement, no misconduct,
no conversations to that degree. But it made me so
uncomfortable that this person you know who I am, know
where I live, you know who my parents are. Now
you you've invited me to your house of worship, and
(23:45):
I don't even feel comfortable going there. So now I'm
trying to as an adult, I'm trying to find my
place in a new city where I don't know anybody,
and now I don't want.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
To party right.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
What I find is interesting about your story, Naya, is
you were violated as a child within your church community,
and now as a young adult, you know this married
pastor like it is violating your space again. This has
to sound familiar to you having married somebody who was
pimping in the pulpit. As we say, forgive the expression,
(24:22):
but the pain that that brings, you know, like it's
bookended and just inappropriate behavior and pain. And so this
is why I asked the people tuning it at home.
You know, when we talk about as black people, when
we talk about the black church, it has such predo
for us. It's such a sensitive subject.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
You know.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
One Black folks don't like you talk about our business publicly.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
You know, it's you know, like, sweep that under the rug.
We don't need to talk about that. And it's been
too much of that, you know, this is why we
have to have these conversations. So I feel it necessary
to pause here and just say to anybody out there,
especially children, under age children, if someone anyone, it doesn't
matter if they're church or not, if someone anyone is
making you feel uncomfortable, touching you inappropriately, saying something to
(25:05):
you inappropriately, looking at you wrong, where you feel inappropriately,
or you feel inappropriate or uncomfortable, tell and tell and
tell and tell and tell until somebody believes you. If
you tell one person, they don't handle it properly, then
you tell another person and you keep telling until somebody
rescues you, makes you feel safe, first and foremost, enough
of this, let's sweep it under the rug and let's
(25:27):
not talk about it. Yeah, I believe you when you
say your parents did the best that they could. But
the reality is, with respect to your parents, because I'm
not a parent, I imagine that had to be a
difficult situation for them, But the realities they failed you.
You know, they did not make you feel safe. And
you can love your parents and meet them with grace.
I love how you you know, do that and say
they did what they thought was best for me, and
(25:49):
I believe that. But as a child you, I just
wanted to, like, you know, picture six year old you
and just hold you and pull you out of that space,
because the assaults that you suffered after that and the
psychological damage after that had to be a lot for
you to carry. And still so just speaking to your humanity,
(26:11):
how are you today? And how's the relationship with your parents' day?
But first, how are you?
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I am okay, I'm in therapy. Good.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
And I made sure that that was something that I
did because for a very long time, I got into
this mindset where it's like I could take everything to
the Lord in prayer. I'm fine, I'm good, I'm gonna
perform well, I'm gonna do well. I'm gonna overcome the
blood of the Lamb. In the world of my testimony,
I've quoted all the scriptures, I've done all the things.
(26:41):
And when I found myself like self medicating, when I
found myself suicidal, when I found myself not feeling comfortable
in my skin as a woman, when I found myself questioned.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
It was like maybe this is maybe I need to
go talk to something.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Well, first of all, bravo to you because what you
survived and then had the discernment to say, you know,
I need to bring this to someone else.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
I need to talk to these feelings.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
It speaks so much us as black women, and you know,
as you're talking, because we are, you know, in modern times,
in this present day and age, in the year of
our Lord, you know, twenty twenty four, dealing with these things.
But I think about the sixties, you know, in the fifties,
and you know, generations are going across generations, how this
conversation has changed, and so much we put on black girls,
(27:38):
young black girls. It speaks to the strength that is
projected on us as children when we are just kids.
We are fragile, you know, and we know how cruel
this system of justice can be the black people. And
so we say, we ask young black girls to hold
their pain because we know how cruel white folks can
(27:59):
be in this stuff system that we can't even turn
over an abuse her to them. So we ask these
black girls to hold all this for themselves. And then
those sad black girls become sad black women, and they
raise sad Black daughters and the generational trauma that we.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Carry through the decades. It's so heavy.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
So I just love that you're breaking that saying no,
I am going to see a therapist, a religious therapist,
she is. Yeah, Yeah, I want to see therapists that
are religious because of church.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Heard. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
But I made that decision because though some of my
experiences may have for a season or a few taking
me out of community, it never took me away from
my relationship with God because I know who God is.
I've had far too many experiences confirming the reality is
through crisis to me, so I can't deny that. Yeah,
(28:51):
but when I was looking for a therapist, I wanted
somebody that had an unbiased opinion on life, not a
unbiased opinion on faith.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yes, that's good. That's good. Yeah, that's good. Therapy is good.
Therapy definitely helps. Even when I was going through my situation,
I went to therapy for the first time and it
really did help me recognize the strength within myself and
a focus on myself because as a black woman, we're
(29:21):
always taking care of other people and making sure our
spouse is okay, our children are okay, our parents are okay,
but what about us?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
You know, so that has.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Really helped me going forward because that was, you know,
twenty something years ago that that happened.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
So being here in a new city.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
And I'm still a church member as well, yes, and right,
so I've not given up on the Lord.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
God didn't hurt me. You know, it really wasn't the church.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
It was people within the church, even though some of
the church administrators did not, I feel support the victim.
That was always you know, we're going to support the pastor.
And that's something that in the Body of Christ really
has to stop. And I say that because in a
lot of ways, I have a personal belief about the
(30:14):
church not protecting women enough.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
For so long.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Growing up, I've seen a movement for women just fighting
to have a spot in the pulpit to preach the
word of God, you know what I'm saying. And I
think that in our day and time, that shouldn't even
be a conversation. Like if God calls you to be
a ministry, if God gave you a word, if God
puts you in a position to do something, then a
woman should be able to do just that. Because there's
nowhere in the text that limits went from doing that.
(30:40):
So that's one part, But there's too much of trying
to protect the man of God, and I don't understand
is it because he is a man or because of
this belief about headship and how things are supposed to be, Like,
is it that or is it just because we don't
want to protect women? And so there needs to be
(31:01):
a It feels like there's going to be a time
for me too, But it's kind of because we're in
this season of like exposure, Like so many people are
getting exposed in this season, and it's time for it. Yeah,
So I really want whoever is listening, if you're in
(31:25):
the faith community, we need to start protecting each other
and holding each other accountable for the bad behavior that
does go on. There are these other conversations that happen
about forgiveness, and you know, for the victim, you got
to forgive your abuser and all these other things. And
that's very true. But I am of the belief that
at some point that has to be God's business, and
(31:47):
your healing and your journey to wholeness needs to be yours.
And the first thing that we tell victims does not
need to be a conversation on forgiveness. It needs to
be a conversation on what do you need and how
can we support you in working throughout the season of
trauma that you're experiencing right now.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I mean, I'm so impressed with you, Naya, because you've
done you're doing the work, you know.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
And it's so clear.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
And I love that you said that we do not
start with forgiveness, like first, you have to hold yourself,
hold your own pain and what you've gone through. And
I think that's so important for our audience to hear,
especially because I know there are people out there. You
all are brave enough to share your story, but there
are so many people who carry shame, who carry hurt pain.
(32:35):
They don't want to disrupt their family. They don't want
to make their parents feel bad for not sharing something
that they went through. They don't want to become the
you know, the whispered about person in the church, and
so all of that. I love that you're encouraging people, Hey,
prioritize yourself and what do you need right in this moment,
because you are the victim here where you're the survivor.
(32:58):
You are a survivor, and I think the uniqueness about
your story too, is that it was a woman who
victimiz you initially, and some people don't think that can happen.
You know, you think, oh, it's a girl, so she'll be.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Fine, right, or they think that or they'll think that,
like the kids are just experimenting, right, yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
It's like absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
And then there was to compound the fact that the
event was even happening, there was a lot of what
you tell your parents, this is going to happen. If
you tell your parents that's gonna it was very there
was an air of violence that hung through it as well.
And then there were there was a lot of questions
around sexuality or what is sex supposed to look like?
(33:42):
Because now that I've come and I've told my parents
about this, I'm still trying to figure out, well, sex
with women is not supposed to be a thing, right
or are men not supposed to do this with each
other too? And so being violated at that age it
created a lot of scenarios about what is and what
is not supposed to be right.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
And I just I have to say that is not
my belief.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
I think anyone out there, if you are a same
gender loving person, I do not support an institution telling
you that you're wrong or terrible. I you know, it's
not my place. I am not God, So I don't
want anyone to feel like I'm echoing that thought at all.
And people who are in church who get told that
over and over, like I can't even if I want
to supertend I don't like men, But imagine going someplace
(34:29):
where they're telling me every day the you know, if
you like a man is wrong, and that is that
does not honor God. And so not only do I
have to not pretend that I don't like men, but
I gotta pretend to like women. That's what we're asking
some people to do. So I hear you know your story,
and I just I want everyone to know like church
is a place where you suldeel welcome. But I also
(34:49):
take both your point. You said something, miss Sarah, it
was not the church that hurt you, it was people
who hurt you.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Well, that is the testimony of everybody. You know.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
The church is at best a building, you know, biblically,
churches anywhere you gather together in My name, which empowers people.
And so for a lot of people who say, oh, well,
I don't go to church because a person does this
and they do that, it's like, well, you've been you
got food poison before, but you still eat.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
So we are not trying to convince people.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
If you choose to go to church, go to church,
if you don't, whatever your choices.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
This is not the place for judgment.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
But we wanted to provide a safe space where you
all can give your testimony about what happened to you.
So I grew up in smaller churches. I did not
grow up in a mega church. Yes, but I do
want to talk about some things on the hills of
(35:44):
your very sensitive testimony about what you both survived. I
do want to talk about the streets are talking. Okay,
y'all already know the streets are talking talking, okay, So
on the on the heels of your very sensitive testimony,
I do want to shift us to sum up the
things that the streets are talking about when it comes
to church. And I know a lot of people will
have a lot of opinions about this conversation, so I
(36:05):
just will keep reiterating how grateful we are to you
all for sharing your testimony. I grew up in a
smaller church and my mom didn't go every Sunday so
I mostly went to church with my grandmother and you know,
children's church and choir practice, and so I didn't experience
church church. But as I got older, I saw some
messaging in church that just did not align with my values.
(36:28):
And so when I see these megachurches that are run
like businesses, you know, like corporations, and there are things
that happen in megachurches.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
That dominate the headlines.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Sometimes the people we're gonna talk about all happen to
be based in Atlanta.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
But this exists everywhere.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
But Bishop Eddie Long, it was a pastor here New
Birth Church in Atlanta. We are all a UC people here,
and so when I was at Clark, like new Birth
had a step team like they were very present in
the Atlanta University. So well, in twenty ten, and Bishop Long,
I do want to say, has passed away, and so
(37:06):
I just want to acknowledge that as we talk about him.
But in twenty ten, four young men accused him of
using his position to coerce them into sexual relationships.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
So there was a settlement.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
The lawsuits were quietly settled out of court, leading to
continued speculation and loss of trust from many at his congregation.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
In full disclosure, no passor Jamal.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Here is Bryant More House grad, but he did publicly
admit to infidelity during his marriage, leading to a divorce
with he and his wife, who was a cast member
on Real Housewives Giselle Bryant. But he has now gone
on to lead New Birth Missionary Baptist Church, and he
himself has a podcast, and you know, his wife has
(37:48):
moved on. Seems like a good time to point out
that these pastors are not supreme beings. You know, they
are sentient human beings like the rest of us. They
are men first, and so I think you have to
view them as that. Kreflow. Dollar has quite a few
challenges with him. I'll talk about the money mismanagement first.
There was a private jet controversy in twenty fifteen where
(38:10):
he requested sixty five million dollars in donations to purchase
a golf string G six fifty private jet for personal
and ministry use. This sparked naturally widespread criticism. But then
there's just the issue of this prosperity gospel. You know,
he's long been associated with that belief, and it's led
to allegations that he exploits his congregation's generosity for luxury
(38:36):
and cars and other things. What stands out to me
about Kreflow Dollar. I don't know if you guys remember,
but in twenty twelve, his fifteen year old daughter told
an emergency dispatcher that she was punched and choked by Dollar,
who's a televangelist. She says she also felt threatened in
(38:57):
the house and that it was not the first time
it happened. This is all according to a nine to
one to one call. His nineteen year old daughter later
affirmed those accusations, even though Dollar himself denied them, but
the nineteen year old daughter said that no, that is
something that was true. Charges word later dropped after he
(39:17):
agreed to anger management counseling. So I say that to
say that just because someone is a preacher or pastor
does not absolve them from accountability. And I think when
it comes to these megachurches, we just have to be
careful how closely we align finances and the trappings of
(39:42):
wealth building with Christ, with God, whatever God you worship.
How do y'all feel about megachurches and how you know
they operate?
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Well?
Speaker 3 (39:54):
I think all churches they are a business, and I
know even in the smaller churches, I've been asked to.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Show my paste uff. Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
I've had a minister come to me and say, you know, well,
you know how much I make, but I don't know
how much you make.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
And I'm like, well, I don't work for the church, right,
you work for the church. Did you show your pace?
Speaker 3 (40:17):
I did not show my paste up because he thought
that I was not giving ten percent. And I know
people who say that they don't go to church anymore
because they were asked to give more. They were even
called into a meeting after church. I think that was
a megachurch, and they pointed out the people who the
(40:38):
couples who.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
They thought were coming in church.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
You know, look at all fine and yeah, driving great cars,
but you're only giving five dollars.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Hey, We're going to pull you in this.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Meeting and teach you about tithing because you should be
giving us ten percent of your check.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Now. I believe in tithing, and I have tithes before.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Unfortunately I'm not tithing right now as a retired person,
but I do believe in tithing. I think I have
been blessed with tithing. So I know these big churches,
even Krypto dollars church, they require you to show your
pay stuff so they know that you're given ten percent.
(41:20):
And so I have a coworker who attended that church
and she says she had no problem with it because
that kept her disciplined. Yeah, so that's a different way
to look at things. But yeah, church is a business.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah right, I'm going to ask you to me that
is invasive. I give what I give with the free heart,
and it's really not up to somebody to regulate that
to me.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
But what your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (41:46):
So church churches are five on one see three nonprofit organizations.
So when we say they're businesses, they're actually businesses.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
And which also means they cannot take a political stance.
When I have thoughts about that as well, but go ahead.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
They they should not able, you should not legalot And
so when we're concerned in fact there are businesses, you
also have to consider the fact that every religious organization
does need to have some form of structure. Without structure,
there's chaos. And so with the structure creates an opportunity
(42:18):
for us to do this kind of cleanly. So when
you have situations or opportunities where minister ministries are finding
ways to do these loophole things where they're asking people
for their pay stuffs and asking people for X y
z amount of money for these projects. I know growing
up because my home church is very it's just very beautiful,
(42:40):
huge cathedral like building that you've grown up in that
is breaking down, and that throughout the years continued to
break down because it took a lot of money to
sustain it, to maintain it. And then you also have
to consider you are maintaining a building, You're keeping lights on,
your key, being people warm or cold every Sunday. You're
(43:02):
also paying staff, You're acquiring donations to feed the homeless
on Saturday mornings. You're garnering resources for families. You're paying
people's rent, you're paying people's bills, you're putting full on tables.
The money that's coming in, I know, personally for my family,
a majority of our income was not really it was
(43:23):
coming from my parents extra endeavors, the books they wrote,
the speaking engagement they took up. As we begin to grow,
there was an opportunity for them to then be getting
paid for ministry, but my parents was working jobs until
we began to grow to a certain size to where
the ministry was able to sustain us and then sustain
(43:43):
the staff that we were able to bring on. And
we believed in paying people well because if you're going
to be doing ministry full time or ministry at any capacity,
then you don't need to be struggling to make in
meat while you're in the house of God trying to
serve Him and trying to serve this organization. Yeah, so
it's a both end thing. I do think it is disgusting, however,
when people get exploited on tithing, because tithing is a
(44:07):
principle of the Christian faith, and so when you are
participating in that, that does needs to be to your
discretion because you do have to answer to you a pastor.
You got to answer to God at the end of
the day for how you are participating and how you
are serving and doing this thing.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
And so I think that's really important context. So I
love that, Yeah, broke that down for how these churches operate.
For people who do tie them, I want to know
where their funds are growing, and I think it has
to be open accountability, you know, open your books to
the congregation so people can see how money is being spent,
their money that they're contributing. I want to get into
the political angle of this because the Black church in
(44:45):
particular has always been a fundamental part of our I'll
say politics because that's how they qualify it. But really
how we look at it is our quality of life.
You know, we are not a lot of black people,
particularly women who work in the church, you know, in
forms of service.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
It is not that we're political. We are working towards
harm reduction. You know.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
We are on the side of goodness and righteousness through
this church to demand is this country treat us well?
And so that sometimes those two things marry. What I'm
seeing that concerns me today is right wing extremists weaponize
that and so a lot of churches are friendly or
friendlier to right wing talking points.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
I have heard it myself personally.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
A lot of people impart these I think extremist views
on our politics. I have seen I'll say the devil
himself show up in church. You know, because you see
a lot of white evangelicals. They don't often say in
the media when they say evangelicals, the white is silent.
But when Donald Trump came and spoke to I think
(45:54):
it was Liberty University and was reading from the Bible.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
We know who this man is.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
And he was literally saying, he read from two Corinthians.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
I'm reading from two Koreans, right exactly. So anybody even knew,
you know, you don't even say that you know it's
Second Corinthians. And he didn't even know.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
And I see all of these people who don't even
go to church but call themselves evangelicals. It has become
a right wing political arm and I see that penetrating
some of the black spaces I'm at church. I'm curious
how y'all feel about this, y'all. I may literally he
was my a man corner here, but I was at
a church in Maryland, outside of Maryland, and the pastor
was talking about it was a ballid initiative on marijuana.
(46:39):
And the pastor is a predominantly black church, and he really,
I ain't never seen anybody but black folks there. So
when we say predominantly, I mean it was a black
church at black folks, right exactly. So he was talking
about legislation. It was a ballid initiative to legalize marijuana,
and he was saying, like how awful this is, And
he was saying, why would y'all want to vote for
(47:01):
something that takes you out of your right mind, and
y'all know what to do with this. And I'm looking
around at this congregation like a lot of y'all sons
and daughters are caught up in this very precarious, unforgiven
criminal justice system over a dining bag of weed. And
this black man is looking out to these black folks
saying support a Republican agenda. It is baffling to me,
(47:23):
like there has to be some level of intellectual curiosity
when it comes to church to not just listen to that.
But so often people say, well, y'all heard what bitcham said,
this is what we gonna do, or y'all heard past
and say this, and this is what we're gonna do.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
And I just I that is some of the challenges.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
I think there are a lot of challenges within the
black church that keep us often handicapped and hurt, to
keep us hurt as a people in the community, and
some of that stems from churches. And to keep it
a buck, a lot of these right wing people slide
money in these pastors pockets to enforce them or encourage them, right,
(47:59):
to nudge them to pairt they're talking point. So I
just it makes me uncomfortable when I when I see
it and when I hear it go ahead.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
I do think there needs to be some kind of
separation between church and state that does need to be constitutionally.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
It has to be a separation church.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
Yeah, but we are as human people that we're existing
every day, like those conversations start to blend, of course,
and so that there's need to be that separation to
a company that I think there's a lot of times
where we can be so heavenly minded that we're no
earthly good, and so conversations that come up about what
you're talking about with your criminalized in marijuana, or the
(48:39):
abortion conversation, or just other conversations that might exist. We
try to put ourselves in a high and mighty seat
instead of thinking about what every day people need, and
it separates us so far to where you may want
to do right by the Lord, but now you now
(49:00):
because of what you think is going to make God proud,
has you siding a team that doesn't care about you.
And so there needs to be a way to kind
of separate those two when we're talking about politics and faith.
And then I want to encourage people to pray, pray,
pray and really inquire with the Lord about what side
(49:21):
of history you want to be on.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
M I love that. Are you going to go into ministry?
Have you made a decision?
Speaker 3 (49:32):
I'm serious because like I just, I exist in these
two different worlds about being in the arts and entertainment
space and about you know, being an entrepreneur to where
God is going to always be a part of everything
that I do.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
So when it comes out, it's just coming out. Yeah, yeah,
I get that. I get that.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Well, I'm really grateful to you, ladies. I'll say this
about my own outlook on church. And you know, in
the Jewish community there are plenty of fe people who
identify as Jewish, but they may not worship, they may
not go, but they're culturally Jewish. I am culturally a
member of a Black church, So you know, I don't know,
but you know, I was raised in it.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
I know no other way. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
As well, when I hear these you know, white folks
out here, parent of these right wing talking points, it's
like you ain't about to out Christian black folks. Also,
I have a curiosity about history, and I you know,
have literally gone to Ghana and seeing the way that
Christianity was literally beat into us, which I think more
of us have to, you know, know and understand how
(50:34):
we came to adopt this religion. And so I you know,
I'm not discouraging anyone from not being a believer.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
You know, I think whatever works for you.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
I just know I have a lot of questions that
I that I ponder. It's not a struggle, because you know,
it's I think curiosity is a healthy thing, but I
definitely ponder it. So anytime we talk about church, we
get a lot of comments, So I would ask that
everybody be respectful in the comments and thank these women
for being bold enough to share their testimony. I think
(51:05):
this is a conversation that will be ongoing here at
a cross generations because the way that we relate to
church has certainly changed across generations, and it's changing now.
So however, you worship, we are not here to put
down the Black Church. I definitely acknowledge the role the
Black Church has played with us here in America and
our politics and how we live our lives, and also
(51:27):
acknowledge there are many of you who have been hurt
by the church, and many of you who don't attend church,
and many of you who are of other religions, including
the Muslim faith, Hindu faith, however you worship. So this
is a safe space here for everybody. But we chose
this time to talk about an issue that impacts so
many of us. So I thank you for tuning in.
I think these wonderful people. I just want to say
(51:48):
to you again, Naya, you are a big, bold personality here.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
We welcome that.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
We don't ask anybody to shrink, and Miss Sarah, I'm
so happy here after what you went through with your
ex husband, you nothing about your spirit seems damage. You know,
you still seem pleasant and joyful and black joy is defiant.
So I celebrate that every time I see it. So
thank you, ladies, and thank you all for tuning in
at home to this episode. And we will be back
(52:15):
next week with yet another episode of Across Generations. I'm
Your Host, Tiffany Cross. Across Generations is brought to you
by Will Packer and will Packer Media in partnership with
iHeart Podcast. I'm Your Host and executive producer Tiffany D.
Cross from Idea to Launch Productions Executive producer Carla willmeris
produced by Mandy Bee and Angel Forte editing, sound design
(52:37):
and mixed by Gaza Forte. For original music by Epidemic Sound
Video editing by Kason Alexander and Courtney Deni.
Host
Tiffany Cross
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