August 24, 2018 • 73 mins
You might remember activist and writer Raquel Willis from our "Identity" episode. Now we're back with Bridget & Yves' full interview with Raquel, a deep dive into speaking your truth and celebrating identity.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to afro Punk Solution Sessions. I'm your host
Brigittad and I'm your co host Eve Jeff Cookee. Acro
punk is a safe place, a blank space to freak
out in, to construct a new reality, to live our
lives as we see fit while making sense of the
world around us. Here at afro Punk, we have the
conversations that matter to us, conversations that lead to solutions. Hi. Everyone,
(00:32):
Eve's here and we're back this week with another interview.
This time it's with Rickale Willis. She's an activist, writer,
and national organizer for the Transgender Law Center, and in
episode ten Identity, she spoke about the activists who came
before her and just how difficult it is to share
your truth, but how really important it is to do so.
(00:52):
So if you haven't listened to the episode, feel free
to go ahead and do that. But right now, here's
the conversation Bridget and I had with Roquale. What's the
word that you're you're really feeling right now that really
speaks to you? Just one to choose one word. One
word I'm really feeling right now. I like unearthing, so
(01:14):
like like unearthing, like history and ear thing figures that
we don't know about unearthing truths because I think that
we're always kind of unearthing different truths about ourselves. So yeah,
I would say unearthing. I think another reason that's such
a good word, uh, in addition to everything you just said,
(01:36):
is that it really puts a like the word earth,
that puts a focus on environmental things. And I think
there's a lot of um, there's a lot of problematic
stuff going on when it comes to environmentalism right now.
So if you add that element to it that I
think it's it's also I think of beauty about it. Definitely. Yeah.
And you know, at the risk of sounding like weird,
(01:58):
you know, I think this whole concept of make America
great again. So some people they think that that's unearthing something.
But when I think of unearthing, I think of a
return to humanity, you know, a return to nature in
the environment and um and the earth and in a
(02:18):
pure sense and not so steeped in capitalism, so steeped
in white supremacy, all these different systems. So the next
one is what does love look like to you? And
what does joy look like to you? Love? M M.
(02:38):
So I feel like love is complicated. I feel like,
in one instance, it's like a cool rush of like
water over you and like a quenching of a thirst
that we all kind of have. But on the other side,
it's also hectic and chaotic and it's like bubbling. It's
(03:02):
like a pot boiling over sometimes. UM. So I think
love kind of fluctuate. It's back and forth between that. Um.
What does joy look like to me? Well, thanks to
my therapist forcing me to actually define what joy is
to me, UM, I really think that joy is not
(03:26):
success in this kind of wealth sense or these accomplishments,
but joy is like the simple moments with like my
nieces and nephews where they're just like in awe about
something in the world that we've taken for granted as adults.
(03:46):
Whether it's something in nature, it's the sky, it's bubbles,
it's all these different things. Um. Joy is family to me, UM,
and I think that that's a test and some of
my like southern roots, like family is so important, and
my heart aches for people who don't know what family is,
(04:08):
whether it's biological or it's chosen family. Right, I think
we all need our tribe of folks who ground us
and um no, a truer sense of who we are
than maybe the rest of the world does. They can
tell you about yourself, right, be like na girl, that's
(04:30):
not the move. I question. So you mentioned that working
with a therapist has been helpful and you understanding what
joy looks like to you. Why do you think that's
important not just to have joy in your life, but
to know joy to requel Is this Why is that
important to you? I think it's important because I think,
(04:51):
particularly for me as a black, transgender queer woman, UM,
joy has looked like finding validation from much of my life,
so validation and my identities, validation and my womanhood, validation
in uh, my place in society. But that's not really joy,
(05:14):
and it's something that actually is fleeting and based on
other people's expectations for me, um and I think we
all have the answers to what brings us joy. UM
and I bring up therapy because I'm trying to be
more transparent about my journey with it, and and the
(05:36):
fact that I think everyone needs a therapist, Like you
can quote me. Everyone needs a therapist. You don't have
to pay them, you should pay them. It could be
someone that you're just really close to, but you need
a sounding board, um, just about life and uh, someone
who can um ground you in what you're actually feeling
(05:59):
um And so yeah, so I think that therapy has
really helped me again unearthed the joy that was already there, um,
but just coming to terms with how how to articulate
it and be honest about what what those things are
that bring me joy? Was that a journey getting to
a place where you're really vocal about the role that
(06:21):
therapy plays in your life, vocal about what joy looks
like to Raquel? Was that? Was that a journey or
a process getting comfortable with that? Yeah? I mean I
think the assumption for someone with so many different identities
that are marginalized, there's an assumption that I've always been
um open minded to everything, um, But I actually went
(06:43):
through a very intense period where I was closed off
to things that had not starved me at other points
in my life, whether it was religion. I really kind
of shoot away this idea that religion or spirituality could
be an escape from me because those were sites of
violence for me, sites of silencing and rature um. And
(07:03):
now I've met so many people who have a deeper,
more nuanced UM relationship with religion and spirituality, and so
I can see the light right UM. Similarly, when it
comes to therapy, I had my first therapist at fourteen,
UM and and he wasn't really a therapist. He was
(07:28):
a religious counselor kind of passing himself off as like, UM,
this typical kind of therapist. And it was a side
of violence for me. It was a space where I
had kind of divulged all of my truths around my
queerness at that point, and it was used as ammo
against me to have my parents try and correct me
(07:52):
around it. Um. And so it didn't actually aid them
that process and actually aid them in understanding and accepting
my journey. It also didn't aid mean. But what it
did UM give me was a reason to fight back
and a reason to be like, actually, you know what,
we're not going back to that therapist. This is my
journey and we'll just have to figure it out from here.
(08:15):
But it was having that experience UM that kind of
closed me off to this idea that therapy would work
for me. And now that I actually have a therapist
who is also clear, is also black, is also a woman,
because I think that those things matter for me. Um,
it's been so helpful and so beneficial. What does identity
(08:36):
mean to you? Identity? Oh, good question. I mean, I
think in a basic sense, identity is like your sense
of self. UM. It's it's the things that you hold
(09:01):
onto UM. And that doesn't necessarily mean that these are
things that define you that you are at ease with.
I think that there we're always going to have aspects
of identity that we're trying to come to terms with
and trying to figure out how to um frame it
(09:24):
in a way that is is um accepting, even for
us as individuals. UM. But then also there are aspects
of identity that are just pure celebration um and and
it can take some time to get there. So like
for me, blackness is pure celebration. For me, it is
something that is divorced from these ideas that we've been
(09:46):
indoctrinated with in a white supremacist society and and kind
of global world or kind of global society. UM. But
that also took work, right and I think for a
lot of people coming to that that place where things
like blackness or trans identity, or queerness or womanhood can
(10:07):
be sites of celebration UM is a struggle for most
of us because these are all marginalized identities that we've
been told UM are cumbersome or are hindrance to us
being seen as fully human. How did you get there? Like,
what was that journey? Well? I think it's a never
(10:29):
ending journey. So I don't want to say I figured
it all out because I don't think that that is
even possible, because I think these identities are so expansive UM.
But it's really been one figuring out how to tell
myself my story UM. And that has been through writing
(10:52):
UM things that I have shared and things I haven't
shared yet, and things that I may never share. UM.
It's been finding community and exploring these things with people
who are also struggling, right, because I think that there's
(11:13):
a beauty in this kind of collective UM experience around
our identities. And it's I think the third thing has
been realizing that even the people, or the experiences or
the systems that have tried to extinguish my fire around
(11:36):
those identities have their place in this world for some
reason UM, and coming to terms with that, and coming
to terms with the fact that I am the person
that I am because of those struggles. Right, I can't
go back in time yet, I don't know. There might
be um one day, I'm sure y'all are exploring that somewhere.
(11:58):
We've got to a lab in the back. Right to
anything is definitely gonna be invented a by queer people, Okay, exactly. Um,
But I think that, um, all of those struggles matter
to who you are, right, and so it's about coming
to terms with them, not trying to like paint them
(12:20):
as something um that they're not. You know, if they
were hard, they were hard. If they were painful, they
were painful. If they were sad, they were sad. And
that's okay. UM. So I think I'm rambling a little
bit now. But that third part is about realizing that
even the people who have hurt you and oppressed you,
(12:42):
they are suffering too in some way. Um. Some days
you may want to hold that. Most days you probably
don't want to hold that that those people, um are
harming you or harming the world. Um. But I think
even someone like Donald Trump I can have sympathy for well,
I was just gonna say that that struck me as
(13:02):
an incredibly like empathetic stance and a stance that probably
would surprise people to hear you say that even someone
who is you know, actively oppressing you, actively making your
life harder, that you can recognize their humanity. What drives
you to be that way? UM might be might be
a big question, you know. I think it's realizing that
(13:30):
we're all flawed, you know, and I'm flawed. I think
that there are a lot of people who think that, um,
because of my identities or because of UM the work
that I do, that I'm incorrigible, or that I can't
be problematic. But that's impossible, you know, Like we're all
(13:53):
capable of being problematic. We're all capable of being privileged
or of being oppressed. UM. And I kind of hate
this binary that we're in right now in society where
we paint people UM by whatever dynamic we choose to
in that given moment without looking at the different nuances
(14:14):
of of who they are UM And I get it.
We're at a reckoning right because marginalized people have not
had the space to name what we've been going through
in the way that we are now, and so we're
at a reckon name right now where everything is the
other extreme. And I think at some point we're gonna
(14:37):
fall somewhere, UM in equilibrium around everyone's identities and experiences.
I like that. Yeah. I also think that UM like
a lot of that that nuance that you speak of,
it comes down to relegating our vocalness and our care
(15:00):
and our compassion to anger. UM. And it's specifically like
as people of colorized black people and all this talk
about like civility and about you know, you're being a warrior,
you're a warrior and negative connotation kind of way that
if you're if you're speaking out that you know, yes,
we're angry, but anger doesn't endo anger. Anger transforms into productivity,
(15:26):
And you know, I think I think that's a large
part of it too. Yeah, I mean, and again, I mean,
I think anger can, right if if we have a
real conversation around the core of where that anger is
coming from. UM. But oftentimes anger doesn't necessarily lead us anywhere,
(15:50):
if we don't have the space to unpack it, if
it's just kind of you know, quelched in that moment
and UM shut down before we can actually reckon with
what we're actually angry about. So I want to switch
gears for a second. If that's okay, that's great. UM.
(16:12):
I want to know about your upbringing, like, how did Raquel,
how did you come to this work? What brought you here? So?
I was born by a river the spiritual right, not
(16:33):
a singer. I'm not going to force y'all to live
through my karaoke boys. UM. I was actually born by
or near a river and the Savannah River. UM. So.
I was born in Augusta, Georgia, UM to a very
traditional black Southern family. UM. But we were also Catholic,
(16:55):
and so there are all of these yeah I didn't
know that. Yeah. So they were all of the dynamics
of UM, just rules and expectations around what it meant
to be UM raised in in that kind of environment. UM.
(17:15):
And so there are so many expectations around gender and
around sexual orientation again, around identity UM that I feel
like hindered me UM from really being able to express
my truth. And my truth was that I was a
(17:38):
budding transperson. But of course I didn't have the language
for that. UM. And so my father UM very typical
in the sense of like he loved me, but I
needed to be corrected UM and not corrected just to
to fulfill his design buyers for who I was supposed
(18:01):
to be in the world but for survival as a
black person in America, right. And so as someone who
was a signmall at birth, there was this idea that
if I didn't grow up to be this upstanding, heterosexual,
god fearing black man, then there was a failure on
his part and I wasn't going to survive in America.
(18:27):
So again this is also hindsight. Right. So obviously as
a kid, I didn't have that context for why my
relationship with my father was so tenuous, um. But I
I also had a tenuous relationship with my peers, and
so I was called everything, gay, sissy, like a girl,
(18:51):
all of these different things from elementary school all the
way up to to high school. And it was difficult
because I would go home and I would be this
like perfect kind of Catholic child, and you know, all
involved in church and doing volunteer work and all of that,
(19:14):
which I think is a source of UM my belief
and like stewardship or my belief in UM using my
gifts and privilege to transform society. Um. But again it
was in that context. And then at school I was
(19:34):
bullied and I was the victim. I was the kid
who you know, was the butt of jokes all those
different things. And then I got to high school my
ninth grade year, and I just started having all of
these revelations about UM, wanting to share my truth to
(19:57):
free myself because it it wasn't really the bullying that
was so horrible, UM, even though that sucked, It was
not being able to be truthful about the fact that
I knew I was different. At that point, the language
for me was gay, UM, and I couldn't say that.
(20:18):
And then my tenth grade year, I had told my mom,
and then I was telling my dad and then um, yeah.
And then I came out at school. So my parents
didn't love the fact that I was this queer kid
telling them this, um, and it was a journey with them.
(20:39):
But coming out of school in high school was like
the greatest thing I could have done at that point.
It was it was freeing UM. And no one could
say anything to me because my truth was the scary thing, right,
And so now it's like, well, if you're holding that
truth like a shield, who can really say anything to
(21:01):
you now? UM. So flash forward to college and I
found a group of LGBTQ folks and met gender nonconforming
folks and trans folks and UM started performing and drag
at that point, and that was a period for me
(21:22):
where I was like, Oh, this actually isn't a performance,
this is who I am. Damn, I gotta say something again. UM.
By the by the point that I had kind of
had the language around being a transgender woman, my father
had passed away UM when I was nineteen. He had
(21:43):
a sudden stroke. And that also served as a catalyst
for me to realize that I have been trying to
fulfill these expectations for him and society around not honoring
my truth, and I couldn't do anymore and I didn't
want to live a life what forty fifty However, long
(22:05):
years after that, hopefully longer UM, where I was just
suffering because of everyone else's thoughts around who I was
supposed to be. UM. And so at that point, when
I came out as as a trans woman on Facebook
on coming Out Day, I think it was in October, UM,
(22:30):
everything kind of shifted and this weight was lifted off
and I could breathe, and so from there everything else
just kind of fell into place. UM. It took time,
but my mom, my sister, and my brother got on
board and and figured out their stuff around it. UM,
(22:53):
and I graduated, and then I had studied journalism. So
I see journal as a media organizing all of these
tools to shift the world and to create a world
that hopefully there won't be another little Roquel who feels
so lost. Right, I mean, obviously we know that we
(23:18):
still live in such a contentious time around gender identity,
but things have shifted so rapidly in the last few years,
and so I'm so grateful to be living in this
moment with so many great people moving this work too.
I'm absolutely positive that you've already done that for a
lot of little rock hills, I hope. So, I mean,
(23:43):
it's it's weird to um be a figure I think
two people, and it's taken a It's also taken me
a long time to come to terms with that, right that, Um,
I've been able to give other people a glimpse of
what is possible. UM. But I'm I'm honored for the
(24:05):
folks that I can be that for. So what do
you say if there's a little Raquel listening right now?
What do you say to that person who? I mean,
you put it so beautifully, wanting to share your truth.
What do you say that person, to that person who
wants to share their truth but feels like they can't.
I would say that sharing your truth UM and getting
(24:29):
to a point to share your truth is probably the
greatest battle of your life, whatever your truth is, UM.
And so I want to acknowledge that, because I think
that we don't acknowledge that enough. That yes, it is
difficult UM to live your most authentic UM life UM.
(24:53):
But I'll also say that there are more people out
there rooting for you then you may know, right UM,
and you have to figure out how to find those
people UM, whether it means going to a group that
(25:14):
UM you never would have imagined you would go to,
or or an organization or something like that, or or
UM moving to a place you need to spread your
wings in a way that you can and your current
UM environment. Do those things for yourself, and don't feel
guilty about that, UM. And I'll also say that there
(25:40):
is beauty and trying to get the people around you
or the people that you've always known to understand your truth.
But that can't be your only UM impetus or this journey,
right like, those people can't be at the core of
(26:05):
you accepting yourself. You have to figure out how to
do that on your own terms. Um, And that's what
has helped me. Right, It's not necessarily having these these
grandiose expectations of other people, UM, in a similar vein
to the ones that were put on me when I
was born. Right, you, you will get it if you
(26:27):
need to get it. If you can't get it, that's fine.
I don't need that energy in my life at this point.
Maybe I'll revisit it, and I have revisited people, um
who have done me harm in the past or not understood.
But you have to be selfish about your livelihood and
(26:48):
about your survival. We'll be right back after this quick break.
Speaking of living in your truth, it just makes me
think about you know, your your media maven, which means
so professed. So if you want to talk about how
you how you got to that title, to which I
love that, that would be great. But UM, just about
being authentic like online and how to how to live
(27:10):
your truth online, specifically when it comes to social media,
because I know a lot of people kind of associate
the social media sphere with like this manufactured image or
you have to be somebody. Maybe that you're not necessary
you necessarily feel that you are. How do you navigate
that world? Like, how do you remain authentic when you're
speaking to people online? That is such a good question.
(27:36):
How do I remain authentic when speaking with people online?
It takes work. Um. Sometimes I actually envy people who
can just say kind of this raw, unfiltered truth online
(27:59):
because I don't feel I do that. For me, I'm
very intentional about what I put out into the world. Um,
perhaps sometimes to my detriment, right perhaps, I you know,
rack my brain about things that I shouldn't. Um, But
I think when you come from journalism or messaging or
(28:24):
you're a writer, words matter, And so I will redraft
the tweet probably like three times on average before I
actually like tweeted out because I really take that seriously
and I really believe everything that we put out into
the universe it then lives there. So, you know, I
(28:49):
I think that we don't take it seriously enough that
this is an extension of who we are as a person.
And so if you wouldn't say that in person and
to a person or or just like out of your
mouth period, then you probably should not be saying that
online Because that actually has more eyes on it than
(29:11):
and more the eyes are the ears really for for
words online, um than anything else. And I it's it's
just baffling to me that people don't understand the power
of social media at this point. I mean, we literally
have a president who a large part of the reason
(29:33):
he is president is because of social media, is because
of the hype, is because of the coude of personality
that he was able to build through social media platforms.
So similarly, I just think that being authentic takes work,
(29:53):
and it takes a knowing of the south and so yeah,
I want to be clear that when I put things
out online, I can actually like stand by them in person. Yeah.
Someone once said think about it this way, that if
there was a New York Times headline that said, you know,
(30:14):
apro punk podcast host Bridget Todd says blah blah blah,
would you be comfortable with that? And that you should
think before you put anything out if it was a
headline that attributed to your name and your title in
your workplace, whatever, would that be okay with you? And
I think thinking of it that way kind of helped me. Um,
something that you said that I think is so interesting.
Is this idea of cult of personality online? I'm this
(30:38):
is a bit out of left field, but I have
noticed that people who become public figures in the social
change space, particularly on Twitter, I think that you kind
of can get so much influence that at a certain
point it becomes your own kind of echo chamber. And
because you have lots and lots and lots of followers,
you have a lot of kind of online clout, if
(30:58):
that's a thing, and an almost any idea you put out,
there's going to be people there to validate it and say, oh, yes, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.
But in a kind of way that sort of does
a disservice because you're not able to I mean, you're
in You're in your own little bell jar people validating
your ideas. Do you ever worry about that that you know,
because have you ever seen that online? And if so,
(31:20):
do you ever worry about that? Yeah? I mean I
think if you look on any celebrities Instagram or Twitter
or whatever, they can say the most ridiculous things, then
people will be like, that's brilliant, right, Like I um,
it's so funny, and this is this is this might
(31:41):
not apply so perfectly. But so Drake just released his
album Scorpion, right, and actually most people I know in
person were like, even like hardcore Drake fans were like, okay,
but like, if you go and look like right under
his next like image you posted on Instagram after it
(32:02):
was released, it's like all of these blue check people
that verified people saying oh it was great, Oh it's amazing,
dad da da da um. And it's funny to me
because that was really one of the first times I
kind of realized I was like, oh, this is all bullshit, Like,
(32:22):
there's no way every single one of these people thought
this was a masterpiece. They may have liked portions of it,
but thought that all of it was a masterpiece. Um.
And maybe part of it is they just support him whatever.
But I also think that the ways that celebrity and again,
this cult of personality, it's wrapped up in that it
(32:47):
warps our thoughts on different ideas and ways of treating people. Um.
And so I think about someone like Donald Trump, right,
who celebrity obviously his like giving him an armor amongst
(33:08):
all the other things privileges that have right, whiteness, maleness
being such, gender being heterosexual, the list goes on, the
less goes on and wealth, right, but celebrity gives people
of an even higher platform than they probably should have,
so they can say something like Mexicans are rapists to
(33:32):
start off their presidential campaign and then win and very
few people bad an eye when it initially comes out, right,
and now it's like, oh wait, yeah he did say that. Wow, right,
and you continue It's kind of like this this uh
what like a snowball effect because once you're desensitized when
(33:53):
you start with that, you can only get worse basically,
and it just becomes more and more acceptable. Like it's
easier to justify the last thing he said because the
thing before that was ridiculous as well. Right, And you
know there's also something that um, A good friend, Melissa
(34:13):
Harris Perry says. UM. She says that particularly around the election,
the fact that cameras were put on to Trump, right,
it gave it's like water and sunlight to any idea,
right when you're in front of a camera saying something
and it's like broadcast out. Um. And I think that
(34:36):
that's true of almost all media and social media as well,
Like you can say pretty much anything and if it
gets picked up, it's validated in a way that everyone's like, okay, well,
then I guess it's it's okay, right, So you can
say something really like imagine that line the Mexicans a
rapists line as a tweet and if you see that
(34:58):
tweet has like one hundred thousand likes, that is validation
on so many levels. So I think we don't talk
enough about that about how we kind of think of
like still in a way in this abstract form, but
how they actually do have consequences and it translates to
(35:21):
real life. But there was just a study released last
week saying that the number of hate documented hate groups,
particularly on college campuses, has risen and that that can
be directly connected to Donald Trump's rhetoric. And you know,
we need to remember that these things are not happening
in vacuums, that they happen, They're not just things happening
on Twitter. It can look that way, but actually they have,
(35:43):
as you were saying, like very real consequences in real life. Right, yeah,
And I you know, and I think you know, perhaps
and maybe one of have you want to call it
a silver lining, one of the silver linings of this
current administration, as that they are really unearthing a lot
(36:05):
of these things that have always been there, right, So
I like to say this the use this like example,
but let's say a year before the election, if I
were to talk about white supremacy as an activist, I
would be looked at like I was paranoid and ridiculous.
(36:28):
And to now see us having these kind of broad
cover like collective conversations about white supremacy specifically and anti
blackness is so interesting to me. Um. And similarly, looking
at how someone like him has unearthed the fact that
sexual assault and harassment and violence is so prevalent, right,
(36:53):
I think a lot of like folks who are women
or identify something outside of this kind of smell identity
knew that, right, But even in some ways talking about
that publicly made us look ridiculous before this current moment,
before Me Too movement kind of blew up. And so
I think that perhaps that can we can look at
(37:16):
that as like, maybe it's the silver lining that we
can have these conversations now, but obviously we have so
much work to do. I think that's so true. Um.
I think that particularly around talking about issues of anti
blackness and white supremacy from the political spectrum, you know.
I never mean, as you know, black particularly black queer
and black women organizers have been talking about these things forever.
(37:40):
I never thought out to the day where Cynthia Nixon
can be a front running congressional candidate and talk about
these things on a platform, right. I never thought out
through the day where we talked about things like reparations
or you know, abolish ice. I never thought out to
the day where you know, Kristen Gillerbrand, you know, sitting
member of our sitting senator, says we should abolish ice.
(38:03):
I never thought to the day that you know, the
rhetoric of prison abolition will be will be discussed by
white lawmakers and white you know, political hopefuls, and it
wasn't laughed out of the laugh out of the arena.
I never thought I would get there. And on that point,
like the other silver lining to this validation is that
we can we can have that instant like gratification, the
immediate gratification of knowing that you're reaching people like you
(38:26):
know that people are listening. I guess it's the other
the other upside to having that sort of online validation, right, Yeah,
I think that that's true, and I I'm also just
thinking about the fact that what has gotten or what
(38:47):
has garnered me a following online has been being my
authentic self, talking about my identity, all these different things
identities and all of these different experiences. And you know
that is the bitter sweet part of it, is that
there are people who have ugly truths right like actually
(39:10):
very damaging thoughts and ideas and aren't committed to being
transformed in them. Um So yeah, So, I mean, you know,
it's it's about realizing that all of these things are
tools and being very clear about what your core values are.
If you say your core values are empathy, vulnerability, um,
(39:36):
then you have to live in that with everything that
you put out into the world. I want to go
back to something you said earlier. You mentioned, um, like
the cameras being on Donald Trump. So it just made
me think about this idea of like, we're basically constantly surveilled, um,
and you, as a public figure, are always under the
watchful eye of based the entire world. Um So how
(39:59):
do like that's one sense of image, like the camera
being turned on you and eyes being turned on you,
but you also there's is also other sense of image
of like how we as people with different marginalized identities
put ourselves out on front street, Like, we also have
to think about how we look at ourselves and how
we deal with our image in in dealing with all
(40:22):
of these identities that we have. So I guess I'm wondering,
how do you balance or reconcile this fact that you
you know, you have eyes on you, so you have
like you have a public persona, but you also have
an image that you create for yourself, Like how do
you how do you balance that? It's hard? Um? I
(40:43):
I think it's about taking as many breaks as possible, um.
And again having that core group of friends and family
who ground me, right, who I actually have to tell
about things that I've accomplished so that they know like Okay, yeah,
(41:03):
she's like celebrating this right now because they don't their
their relationship with me is not following my every move, right.
Their relationship was like are you okay girl? Are you
in town? Like what's going on? Those kind of things,
And and that is really what his sustained me as
building those relationships and taking them more seriously. And I
(41:24):
think when I started to become more of a public
figure is when I started to really understand the necessity
of like fostering those relationships and and understanding that yes
they are work, but it's it's worthy work. UM. So yeah,
(41:49):
so I I think that they keep me grounding, UM
and keep me in balance with all of these different
faces to the public. Um. But it is hard. Um,
it is hard to have this like feeling of not
wanting to mess up or what the ramifications for other
(42:13):
people would would be if I messed up. So, like,
as a black trans woman who is UM visible and
and and a public figure, I don't want to mess
up opportunities for other black trans woman by messing up
UM or damaging relationships or anything like that, particularly professionally
(42:39):
or like in the movement. Well, in that way, is
hyper visibility as a black trans woman? Is it kind
of a double edged short sword where on the one hand,
it's good because you have a platform, but on the
other hand it's kind of not so fun sometimes. Yeah,
I mean that that sounds real. Yeah, I mean it
(42:59):
is great to have access UM and be able to
realize that that access can pro provide opportunities to help
other folks, to help other folks in my community. UM,
whether it's amplifying the work that they're doing, or um
(43:20):
doing programming that that will help strengthen the work that
they currently have, which is what my organizing is really
all about. UM. But it is difficult, um and and
I rarely talk about this period, but I think sometimes
(43:42):
I feel like I've sacrificed a lot already for the
work and for the movement in terms of like personal goals.
So I think about I think about love and romance
and having a family one day, and all of these
kind of thoughts, and then, you know, I wonder if
(44:05):
I've put myself too far out there, that I've made
those things impossible. Um, how do you reconcile that? Well,
my therapist helps shout out to her again. UM. You know,
I think it's about realizing that every struggle or um,
(44:27):
every hard period that I've been through before, UM, I've
gotten through it. So I'll have some epiphany one day
around how to balance all of this and balance being
this public figure and and doing this organizing and movement
work and being committed to it, and also being committed
(44:48):
to my personal goals around love and family and the
rest of my personal life. We'll be right back after
this quick break what what role do you like our
ancestors play in the work that you do, and then
just the way you move in the world, like does that,
does that? Does your lineage? And like ant does ancestry
(45:09):
drive you in any way? Definitely? So I have definitely
been thinking a lot more about the ancestors and that
kind of general sense, UM. And I think it's hard
as a black, queer trans person, right because you know,
(45:30):
the gosline is that we are ancestors wildest dreams, right,
And so for me, as someone who is at all
of these different intersections, I probably would be a wild dream,
you know, and perhaps to a lot of my ancestors,
I am a nightmare UM. And so that's a lot
(45:51):
to reconcile with. UM. Similarly, it's been a lot to
reconcile with this idea that you know, if my father
was being back down to Earth now and we were
passing each other on the street, would he recognize me?
And then when he did, what would happen? So it's
(46:12):
hard to balance all of that, But I, you know,
I have this idea that you know, all of these
spirits and ancestors um, whatever kind of human insecurities and
failings around understanding who I am that they may have had,
(46:32):
they don't have that anymore, and so they get it,
and so they're with me, they're protecting me, they're loving me, Um,
And I'm thankful for that. And the other benefit of
being also clear and trans is that I have all
of these other ancestors that I'm not necessarily biologically related to,
you know, So my ancestry is vast, you know. It
(46:56):
is the Marsha Peas and the Sylvia's um and as
all of these various figures who paved the way for
me to do the work that I do now and
live the life that I do now. Well, I was
going to say something that it seems to come up
again and again and again, uh, in your story, is
this idea of community you talked earlier about sort of
(47:19):
together as a collective community, making space for the feelings
that don't feel good, but then also finding joy and
beauty in that you talked about going to college and
meeting your your sort of secondary family and then helping
you sort of live in your truth. What role is
community played for you in your life? Well? Growing up?
And I'll go back to that Catholic upbringing, Um, And
(47:42):
also that my parents had us volunteering with the local
Red Cross chapter at like young ages. UM, I always
felt like I had a duty to be invested in
and my community, whatever that was, and see myself as
(48:04):
actually a part of it and not detached from it. UM.
And at that point, it was more around local community
because that's such a southern thing, um and a small
town thing. But community grew into something more for me. UM.
It grew into a place of solace, UM, a place
(48:26):
of exploration, a place of yeah, just trying on different
experiences to figure out like who I was, UM. And
that's what I think community can be, right. I think
that it can be these places where we grow in
ways maybe we couldn't in other spaces in our lives. UM.
(48:51):
And now, community to me is this kind of collective
group of like war years or resistors, right, UM, fighting
for survival in a world that we have told we
we exist and we deserve to exist, and now is
(49:11):
like yelling at us that we don't. Right, And so
I think that we're gonna We're going to win. I
know that we're going to win, and we'll have the
last word. Can you tell us a bit more about
your work as an organizer. Yeah, so my work really
has grown from something that was more about being isolated
(49:34):
in my writing or UM in my work in media,
to being more for facing in the community UM. And
so I have been for the last two years working
as a national organizer for Transgender Law Center, which really
means that I have been traveling across the country, meeting
(49:59):
with building with other transgender, gender nonconforming activists and advocates
who are moving important work. And so it's been beautiful
to see that there are such resistance UM and resilience
that has always been happening from everywhere like Alaska to Montana,
(50:23):
to the Deep South Louisiana, UM, Alabama, here in Georgia, Florida,
all of these different places, there are trans and gender
nonconforming people who are really shifting their environments and their
realities UM. And so as someone at a national organization,
(50:46):
it hasn't been about going in and telling people what
they need to do UM. It's really about shifting resources
so that they can better do their work. And and
I'm thankful to have this experience and thankful to to
now be working on a project UM specifically around black
transgender women and our healing UM and in the ways
(51:12):
in which we need safety, support and solace UM in
in a moment where they're such violence and harassment. Like
you said, you know, the increase in hate crimes UM
and or instances of hate is is astronomical UM. And
so this project I'm working in areas that have had
(51:35):
high rates of murder, high rates of violence UM really
to build spaces for healing justice. So talking about our
experiences and defining violence for what it is UM in
a way that we've never been able to, but then
also figuring out the ways to heal from those instances
(51:55):
and prevent them from happening in the future. One thing
that I would really love you to speak on, especially
in thinking about identity, is the importance of naming UM.
Whether that's taking back the power and names, whether that's
you know, removing the power from names UM, the importance
(52:15):
of names. Yeah, so yes, I think you know, when
it comes to naming it, it can be so many things,
and it is so many things. So I think for
marginalized people, there's a necessity of naming our experience on
(52:40):
our own terms UM, divorced from these systems that have
tried to name us for us UM, and so there's
power in that, right UM. And whatever way you choose
to do that, however you choose to identify yourself, um,
whether it is taking on a new name, which many
(53:01):
trans and general conforming folks do, many folks of different
religions do that too, write that can be a source
of power, UM. But there's also the naming of our
experiences UM. And so like I was saying, the naming
of violence. When we think about the violence that happens
(53:24):
to black transgender women, it is often named by other
people for us, and so many people don't get the
full story, who are outside of our community. And so
naming that violence has looked like having real conversations on
the fact that oftentimes it is our intimate partners or
(53:49):
domestic partners who are committing this violence against us, not strangers, right. UM,
It's people who do know our identities, and we've been
able to be vulnerable with and have turned on us
um because of society, because of their own expectations around
who they are. UM. And so this that's why this
(54:14):
work is so important, UM, and why I think that
there's a lot that everyone can gain from transgender and
gender non conformed people. I really believe that we are
the future. I believe that we give a glimpse of
a world where we are not encumbered by other people's
(54:37):
expectations for us. And the truth is, honestly, we're not
that different from everyone else because everyone is inherently gender
non conforming. This idea of the perfect woman or the
perfect man, or the perfect feminine person or the perfect
(54:59):
masculine p person, it's just that it's just the concept
is just an idea, it's just an image. But the
reality is, as we have all had points in our
lives where we were told we weren't being the way
that we were supposed to be. Whether it's little boys
and men told that they can't have an emotional intelligence
(55:21):
and cry and have a full range of emotions things
that are aspects of being human, or whether it's little
girls and women who are told that they can't be strong,
and they can't be leaders, and they can't be in
charge of their own destiny and have agencies. Those are
elements of humanity. And for all of the people in
(55:41):
between who fit neither scripts and were forced to figure
out their own path outside of all of that, that
just makes that makes me think when you say you
know We're not that different. Like what why is it
so hard for everybody to recognize it? I guess? How
(56:01):
does it? How does it feel to have like trans
our gender nonconforming identities put out on French streets are isolated,
I guess, and having to talk about them separately than
your other identities because it needs to be explained or
because there needs to be more awareness, just like you know,
(56:22):
like what now we have representation of trans people on
this show, or like this person was the first, like
having all these first, that was the first trans person
elected to you know, whatever office. It's like hard to
explain this, but like, how does it feel to like
or does it feel like it's kind of like working
(56:42):
backwards to have to kind of justify a part of
your identity that really shouldn't be isolated from all the
other parts of your identities. It's I would say that
there are two kind of conflicting feelings for me about
(57:02):
this UM. So there are times where I feel like
I shouldn't have to isolate my trans nous um to
be heard or be understood. UM. When I'm in different spaces,
I'm often the only trans person. So if I'm in
an all women's space or so called feminist space. I'm
(57:28):
often the only trans woman in there, and so then
I have to name it so that people understand that
they have a commitment to to this community. Um. But
I I should be living in a world where I
shouldn't have to be in the room for that commitment
to be upheld. Um. And I know many trans folks
(57:51):
who don't use trans as an adjective publicly because they're like, well,
I'm just man, or I'm just a woman, or I'm
just whoever I am, So why should I have to
add that? And that makes sense, right, because we're not
all activists. We're not all invested in in in trying
(58:15):
to like shift other people's thoughts and perceptions. That's the
work that I do. But I call myself an activist
and an organizer. Um And so there's no commitment for
everyone to name their identities in that way every single time.
But on the other hand, there are ways in which
we celebrate every other identity. But when it comes to
(58:39):
talking about and I won't say every other identity, but
many other identities in a way that we don't celebrate
trans identity. So if I am saying that I am,
you know a black woman in many spaces, that is
a sense of empowerment right for me to name myself
(59:00):
is that um. And it's more and more accepted nowadays
to name my blackness, to name my womanhood, But when
I name my trans hood or my trans nous, it
is still seen as a slide against me. Um. And
so there's this kind of like there's this weird kind
(59:23):
of I'm missing the word for it right now, but
this weird kind of pity that comes with naming my transness.
It's like, bless your heart for being able to say that,
or oh, you're so brave for being able to do that,
And that actually doesn't tell me that you hear me right.
That just tells me that you still see me as
(59:45):
so other that you have to see this identity as
something that I'm struggling with or I had to struggle
to hold onto. So it's both of the and it's
it's complicated because at any given moment, it could feel
one way and quickly feel the other way. UM. Because
(01:00:07):
when you have an identity that is so marginalized, you
really have to do some work on figuring out where
people are coming from when they ask you certain questions.
Or explore it with you. The question I have that
came from that was that you mentioned what it what
it's like to be the only trans woman in feminist spaces.
As we know from doing this work, there are plenty
of feminists, so called feminist spaces that explicitly say we
(01:00:31):
are not inclusive of trans women. What do you what
do you say to spaces like that that claim to
be about uplifting women but then explicitly will not be
inclusive of trans women. Well, I think that it's all
about being clear about what you're creating a space around.
(01:00:52):
Um and so you know, and this may not go
over well for some folks, but I can imagine that,
you know, possibly for some reasons, this woman would need
their own space. I would hope it's around unpacking and
(01:01:15):
figuring out how to be more understanding of your assision
the privilege. That would be my hope. I'm trying to
go into this with like best intentions. Um, but if
you're saying you're creating a women's space, I'm a woman period.
(01:01:44):
You know I'm not gonna give some full like essay
on why I'm a woman. I'm a fucking woman. It
is what it is, and So if you're creating a
woman's space and you into internally leaves trans women out
of it, that's not a woman's space. That's assist woman's space.
(01:02:06):
And you have made it clear that you don't honor
and support all women. So actually it's not a feminist space.
And I have gotten to the point, actually, I think
in the last few months where I'm like, actually, we
don't need to call turfs trans exclusionary radical feminists. They're
not feminists. They're assholes. Every time I see that, I think,
(01:02:32):
I mean, why are we giving them this? Why are
they make it clear? This is me on my high horse,
But they make it clear again and again they are
not committed to, you know, shared feminist ideals. So then
why do we have to give them this label? Why
why do we we don't you know? And I get why, um,
trans people and usually trans women have used this term, right,
(01:02:55):
And so I'm you know, use whatever term you need
to do, but it sis women and sis feminists who
claim to be trans inclusive or um whatever term you
want to use. I actually hate this idea of inclusivity
(01:03:15):
because it's ignoring the fact that we've always been there. Um.
But if you claim to be some kind of ally
or comrade to trans women. You need to be doing
that work of calling out these people who claim to
be feminists and exclude us, and that is not happening
on a larger level, right, So I need the glorious Dynams,
(01:03:36):
I need the Lena Dunham's, I need all of these people,
the Taylor Swift shout out to Beyonce, I love you girl.
I need you all to be like, oh, yes, I'm
a feminist. And also I'm denouncing these people who claim
to be feminists and don't support trans women. And if
you can't do that, and then you're not a feminist
(01:03:58):
period to me. And then I'll also say, I understand,
and I've had conversations with folks who do womb healing
UM and specifically reproductive justice around folks who have uterus
is or uterio have multiple um but uh, you know,
(01:04:24):
and and so a certain kind of reproductive system and
so yeah, definitely those need to be spaces um and
those are spaces that can be created. You know, I'm
not gonna say anything can't be. And I understand the
importance of that, but again, not everyone has this. Every
(01:04:48):
woman has the same reproductive system, and there are actually
men and non binary folks who have that reproductive system.
And so if you're going to create a space around that,
then honor them too. And then if you're not doing that,
then be clear. This is the CIS woman's space to
(01:05:10):
talk about reproductive justice. I would rather you be clear
than claim it to be something that it's not and
invite folks in based on that false claim. Right. That's
a good point. I was wondering too, if you feel
like your southernness shows up in your work in any way,
(01:05:33):
because like you know, isn't. It's showing up right now
on the mic. It's funny because it made me think
of it when you said bless your heart. So I
think people people have a lot of As a person
who's always lived in the South was born, I was
born in Columbius after a lot, and so I've been
in the Deep South for a long time. But I
think there are a lot of things that are misconceptions about,
(01:05:54):
you know, people who live in the South just as individuals,
but as a society in general, like and those misconceptions
can be harmful because it makes it seem like there
are things that we can't do or people who we
can't be um. But also there are things that are
very accurate that people generalize about the South as well.
So I was just wondering if you if you ever
(01:06:16):
feel that, like specifically when you're when you're working, when
you're organizing our or you know, doing your thing. Um. Well,
you know what's funny. As my mom, um she said
a few weeks ago, she was like, you know, and
I never remember how Southern you are until I hear
(01:06:38):
you speak publicly. And I'm like, okay, really, girl, you
know you of all people because her she is so
Southern to her accent is southic Um. But I definitely
do think my Southern nest comes out um, and I
think it's a core part of who I am. UM.
(01:06:59):
I was also having another conversation with my mom the
other day, and I was like, you know, I think
for a long time I had shame around being from
the South, um, because I think when I grew up here,
I really was defining it by all of the oppression
that has happened here. So you know, the Civil War,
(01:07:22):
the white supremacist um, being in the Bible Belt, and
hetero sexism says sexism, all these different things but that's
really a disservice because the beauty of the South is
that the people who have been so marginalized UM have
made many of us have made the claim to stay
(01:07:44):
here right UM and fight in in one of the
toughest fights across the country still to this day, UM,
whether it's around race or whether it's around gender or
sexual orientation, and UM, we do that. And so why
why can I define it based on the resilience and
(01:08:07):
the resistance that has always been here. So there's that,
and there's also just after living elsewhere, living in California,
I have to roll my eyes sometimes because there's such
privilege around progress UM. And so there are some things,
(01:08:34):
some fights they are that I feel like we're like
decades off of here in Georgia. You know, like in California,
there's all of this work that has happened around UM,
non binary gender markers, right, that is something I don't
even necessarily see on the horizon for Georgia. There's all
(01:08:58):
of this UM work around protections for transgender people, transgender
people who are incarcerated. I don't see that happening, that
work happening here because of just how steep UM the
conservatism is so so Yeah. I think if you can
(01:09:19):
make it in the style that you can make it anywhere.
Can you list off? So? I know we've talked about
yourself as a media maven and a black woman and
a Southerner. Now I'm curious, like, what are the like there?
I'm sure there are so many identities that people invite
you to talk about a lot, namely your transnis, your
black womanhood. What are some other identities that you feel
(01:09:40):
like don't get as much play because I don't know
that people. I don't. I don't. I didn't know you
were Southern until I heard you talk either. Um, what
are someone? What are some of the other identities that
make Raquel Raquel? Some other identities that make me me? Um?
I hate saying this, but I'm a Gemini. I was
(01:10:01):
getting Gemini V and I own my Gemini and I
don't hate him because I hate this identity, I guess,
but because of the reaction to it. Um, because I
often get you know, I think geminis are one of
the most hated signs, definitely probably the most hated sign,
(01:10:22):
and then scorpios are second. Um. But I think that
that they're rightful to be hated. Um. But anyway, so Gemini,
Um what else? I love Beyonce, UM, but I think
that's like over rated nowadays. UM. I love Prince. UM.
(01:10:48):
I actually really like music and studio was called Prince.
He booked it just for you, but we should have okay, cool? Um,
But I actually really like music, and I'm really I've
been into like analyzing music for a long time. UM,
so I'll like read up all the like theories on
like artists during the period they were writing things, because
(01:11:11):
I'm always intrigued by that and how they like produce work, um,
and reading like the different meanings of lyrics and all
of that. Like I remember before Genius, back in the day,
there was like song meanings dot Com, which was like
the first Genius. They kind of ripped them off or something.
(01:11:31):
I don't know, but so it's it's been a long thing.
And I actually when I started writing, I was writing
I was I wanted to be a songwriter, which very
few people know when I was like fourteen or fifteen. Um,
So yeah, so you can't. I wouldn't be surprised if
if ten years down the line it's raquel songwriter singer,
(01:11:56):
like I wouldn't be surprised if you're if your title
grew by ten things in you know, just a few years.
I'm hoping to add author to that soon. So, um
but maybe who knows, I don't. There's no lane, right,
So I think that's the other thing is there is
no lane for us. And what's so amazing about millennials
(01:12:17):
as much ship as we get is pretty much everyone
I know has created their own lane and as doing
multiple things and figuring out how to infuse their passion
into their work. Um. So I guess that's another identity
being a millennial. We hope you enjoyed the interview that
(01:12:43):
we had with for Kill. We definitely did, and there
will be more interviews in the coming weeks for you
to hear. Afro Punk Solution Sessions is a co production
between Afro Punk and How Stuff Works. Your hosts are
Bridget Todd and Eve's Jeff Cope. Executive co producers are
Due Douglas, Jocelyn Cooper, and Kuan latif Hill. Dylan Fagan
(01:13:04):
is supervising producer and audio engineer. Many many thanks to
Casey Pegram and Annie Reese for their production and editorial oversight,
and many thanks to her on the ground Atlanta Crew
Ben Bowland, Corey Oliver and Noel Brown. The Underside of
Power is performed by Algiers. Connect with us on Facebook,
Twitter and Instagram at afropol
You're listening to afro Punk Solution Sessions. I'm your host
Brigittad and I'm your co host Eve Jeff Cookee. Acro
punk is a safe place, a blank space to freak
out in, to construct a new reality, to live our
lives as we see fit while making sense of the
world around us. Here at afro Punk, we have the
conversations that matter to us, conversations that lead to solutions. Hi. Everyone,
(00:32):
Eve's here and we're back this week with another interview.
This time it's with Rickale Willis. She's an activist, writer,
and national organizer for the Transgender Law Center, and in
episode ten Identity, she spoke about the activists who came
before her and just how difficult it is to share
your truth, but how really important it is to do so.
(00:52):
So if you haven't listened to the episode, feel free
to go ahead and do that. But right now, here's
the conversation Bridget and I had with Roquale. What's the
word that you're you're really feeling right now that really
speaks to you? Just one to choose one word. One
word I'm really feeling right now. I like unearthing, so
(01:14):
like like unearthing, like history and ear thing figures that
we don't know about unearthing truths because I think that
we're always kind of unearthing different truths about ourselves. So yeah,
I would say unearthing. I think another reason that's such
a good word, uh, in addition to everything you just said,
(01:36):
is that it really puts a like the word earth,
that puts a focus on environmental things. And I think
there's a lot of um, there's a lot of problematic
stuff going on when it comes to environmentalism right now.
So if you add that element to it that I
think it's it's also I think of beauty about it. Definitely. Yeah.
And you know, at the risk of sounding like weird,
(01:58):
you know, I think this whole concept of make America
great again. So some people they think that that's unearthing something.
But when I think of unearthing, I think of a
return to humanity, you know, a return to nature in
the environment and um and the earth and in a
(02:18):
pure sense and not so steeped in capitalism, so steeped
in white supremacy, all these different systems. So the next
one is what does love look like to you? And
what does joy look like to you? Love? M M.
(02:38):
So I feel like love is complicated. I feel like,
in one instance, it's like a cool rush of like
water over you and like a quenching of a thirst
that we all kind of have. But on the other side,
it's also hectic and chaotic and it's like bubbling. It's
(03:02):
like a pot boiling over sometimes. UM. So I think
love kind of fluctuate. It's back and forth between that. Um.
What does joy look like to me? Well, thanks to
my therapist forcing me to actually define what joy is
to me, UM, I really think that joy is not
(03:26):
success in this kind of wealth sense or these accomplishments,
but joy is like the simple moments with like my
nieces and nephews where they're just like in awe about
something in the world that we've taken for granted as adults.
(03:46):
Whether it's something in nature, it's the sky, it's bubbles,
it's all these different things. Um. Joy is family to me, UM,
and I think that that's a test and some of
my like southern roots, like family is so important, and
my heart aches for people who don't know what family is,
(04:08):
whether it's biological or it's chosen family. Right, I think
we all need our tribe of folks who ground us
and um no, a truer sense of who we are
than maybe the rest of the world does. They can
tell you about yourself, right, be like na girl, that's
(04:30):
not the move. I question. So you mentioned that working
with a therapist has been helpful and you understanding what
joy looks like to you. Why do you think that's
important not just to have joy in your life, but
to know joy to requel Is this Why is that
important to you? I think it's important because I think,
(04:51):
particularly for me as a black, transgender queer woman, UM,
joy has looked like finding validation from much of my life,
so validation and my identities, validation and my womanhood, validation
in uh, my place in society. But that's not really joy,
(05:14):
and it's something that actually is fleeting and based on
other people's expectations for me, um and I think we
all have the answers to what brings us joy. UM
and I bring up therapy because I'm trying to be
more transparent about my journey with it, and and the
(05:36):
fact that I think everyone needs a therapist, Like you
can quote me. Everyone needs a therapist. You don't have
to pay them, you should pay them. It could be
someone that you're just really close to, but you need
a sounding board, um, just about life and uh, someone
who can um ground you in what you're actually feeling
(05:59):
um And so yeah, so I think that therapy has
really helped me again unearthed the joy that was already there, um,
but just coming to terms with how how to articulate
it and be honest about what what those things are
that bring me joy? Was that a journey getting to
a place where you're really vocal about the role that
(06:21):
therapy plays in your life, vocal about what joy looks
like to Raquel? Was that? Was that a journey or
a process getting comfortable with that? Yeah? I mean I
think the assumption for someone with so many different identities
that are marginalized, there's an assumption that I've always been
um open minded to everything, um, But I actually went
(06:43):
through a very intense period where I was closed off
to things that had not starved me at other points
in my life, whether it was religion. I really kind
of shoot away this idea that religion or spirituality could
be an escape from me because those were sites of
violence for me, sites of silencing and rature um. And
(07:03):
now I've met so many people who have a deeper,
more nuanced UM relationship with religion and spirituality, and so
I can see the light right UM. Similarly, when it
comes to therapy, I had my first therapist at fourteen,
UM and and he wasn't really a therapist. He was
(07:28):
a religious counselor kind of passing himself off as like, UM,
this typical kind of therapist. And it was a side
of violence for me. It was a space where I
had kind of divulged all of my truths around my
queerness at that point, and it was used as ammo
against me to have my parents try and correct me
(07:52):
around it. Um. And so it didn't actually aid them
that process and actually aid them in understanding and accepting
my journey. It also didn't aid mean. But what it
did UM give me was a reason to fight back
and a reason to be like, actually, you know what,
we're not going back to that therapist. This is my
journey and we'll just have to figure it out from here.
(08:15):
But it was having that experience UM that kind of
closed me off to this idea that therapy would work
for me. And now that I actually have a therapist
who is also clear, is also black, is also a woman,
because I think that those things matter for me. Um,
it's been so helpful and so beneficial. What does identity
(08:36):
mean to you? Identity? Oh, good question. I mean, I
think in a basic sense, identity is like your sense
of self. UM. It's it's the things that you hold
(09:01):
onto UM. And that doesn't necessarily mean that these are
things that define you that you are at ease with.
I think that there we're always going to have aspects
of identity that we're trying to come to terms with
and trying to figure out how to um frame it
(09:24):
in a way that is is um accepting, even for
us as individuals. UM. But then also there are aspects
of identity that are just pure celebration um and and
it can take some time to get there. So like
for me, blackness is pure celebration. For me, it is
something that is divorced from these ideas that we've been
(09:46):
indoctrinated with in a white supremacist society and and kind
of global world or kind of global society. UM. But
that also took work, right and I think for a
lot of people coming to that that place where things
like blackness or trans identity, or queerness or womanhood can
(10:07):
be sites of celebration UM is a struggle for most
of us because these are all marginalized identities that we've
been told UM are cumbersome or are hindrance to us
being seen as fully human. How did you get there? Like,
what was that journey? Well? I think it's a never
(10:29):
ending journey. So I don't want to say I figured
it all out because I don't think that that is
even possible, because I think these identities are so expansive UM.
But it's really been one figuring out how to tell
myself my story UM. And that has been through writing
(10:52):
UM things that I have shared and things I haven't
shared yet, and things that I may never share. UM.
It's been finding community and exploring these things with people
who are also struggling, right, because I think that there's
(11:13):
a beauty in this kind of collective UM experience around
our identities. And it's I think the third thing has
been realizing that even the people, or the experiences or
the systems that have tried to extinguish my fire around
(11:36):
those identities have their place in this world for some
reason UM, and coming to terms with that, and coming
to terms with the fact that I am the person
that I am because of those struggles. Right, I can't
go back in time yet, I don't know. There might
be um one day, I'm sure y'all are exploring that somewhere.
(11:58):
We've got to a lab in the back. Right to
anything is definitely gonna be invented a by queer people, Okay, exactly. Um,
But I think that, um, all of those struggles matter
to who you are, right, and so it's about coming
to terms with them, not trying to like paint them
(12:20):
as something um that they're not. You know, if they
were hard, they were hard. If they were painful, they
were painful. If they were sad, they were sad. And
that's okay. UM. So I think I'm rambling a little
bit now. But that third part is about realizing that
even the people who have hurt you and oppressed you,
(12:42):
they are suffering too in some way. Um. Some days
you may want to hold that. Most days you probably
don't want to hold that that those people, um are
harming you or harming the world. Um. But I think
even someone like Donald Trump I can have sympathy for well,
I was just gonna say that that struck me as
(13:02):
an incredibly like empathetic stance and a stance that probably
would surprise people to hear you say that even someone
who is you know, actively oppressing you, actively making your
life harder, that you can recognize their humanity. What drives
you to be that way? UM might be might be
a big question, you know. I think it's realizing that
(13:30):
we're all flawed, you know, and I'm flawed. I think
that there are a lot of people who think that, um,
because of my identities or because of UM the work
that I do, that I'm incorrigible, or that I can't
be problematic. But that's impossible, you know, Like we're all
(13:53):
capable of being problematic. We're all capable of being privileged
or of being oppressed. UM. And I kind of hate
this binary that we're in right now in society where
we paint people UM by whatever dynamic we choose to
in that given moment without looking at the different nuances
(14:14):
of of who they are UM And I get it.
We're at a reckoning right because marginalized people have not
had the space to name what we've been going through
in the way that we are now, and so we're
at a reckon name right now where everything is the
other extreme. And I think at some point we're gonna
(14:37):
fall somewhere, UM in equilibrium around everyone's identities and experiences.
I like that. Yeah. I also think that UM like
a lot of that that nuance that you speak of,
it comes down to relegating our vocalness and our care
(15:00):
and our compassion to anger. UM. And it's specifically like
as people of colorized black people and all this talk
about like civility and about you know, you're being a warrior,
you're a warrior and negative connotation kind of way that
if you're if you're speaking out that you know, yes,
we're angry, but anger doesn't endo anger. Anger transforms into productivity,
(15:26):
And you know, I think I think that's a large
part of it too. Yeah, I mean, and again, I mean,
I think anger can, right if if we have a
real conversation around the core of where that anger is
coming from. UM. But oftentimes anger doesn't necessarily lead us anywhere,
(15:50):
if we don't have the space to unpack it, if
it's just kind of you know, quelched in that moment
and UM shut down before we can actually reckon with
what we're actually angry about. So I want to switch
gears for a second. If that's okay, that's great. UM.
(16:12):
I want to know about your upbringing, like, how did Raquel,
how did you come to this work? What brought you here? So?
I was born by a river the spiritual right, not
(16:33):
a singer. I'm not going to force y'all to live
through my karaoke boys. UM. I was actually born by
or near a river and the Savannah River. UM. So.
I was born in Augusta, Georgia, UM to a very
traditional black Southern family. UM. But we were also Catholic,
(16:55):
and so there are all of these yeah I didn't
know that. Yeah. So they were all of the dynamics
of UM, just rules and expectations around what it meant
to be UM raised in in that kind of environment. UM.
(17:15):
And so there are so many expectations around gender and
around sexual orientation again, around identity UM that I feel
like hindered me UM from really being able to express
my truth. And my truth was that I was a
(17:38):
budding transperson. But of course I didn't have the language
for that. UM. And so my father UM very typical
in the sense of like he loved me, but I
needed to be corrected UM and not corrected just to
to fulfill his design buyers for who I was supposed
(18:01):
to be in the world but for survival as a
black person in America, right. And so as someone who
was a signmall at birth, there was this idea that
if I didn't grow up to be this upstanding, heterosexual,
god fearing black man, then there was a failure on
his part and I wasn't going to survive in America.
(18:27):
So again this is also hindsight. Right. So obviously as
a kid, I didn't have that context for why my
relationship with my father was so tenuous, um. But I
I also had a tenuous relationship with my peers, and
so I was called everything, gay, sissy, like a girl,
(18:51):
all of these different things from elementary school all the
way up to to high school. And it was difficult
because I would go home and I would be this
like perfect kind of Catholic child, and you know, all
involved in church and doing volunteer work and all of that,
(19:14):
which I think is a source of UM my belief
and like stewardship or my belief in UM using my
gifts and privilege to transform society. Um. But again it
was in that context. And then at school I was
(19:34):
bullied and I was the victim. I was the kid
who you know, was the butt of jokes all those
different things. And then I got to high school my
ninth grade year, and I just started having all of
these revelations about UM, wanting to share my truth to
(19:57):
free myself because it it wasn't really the bullying that
was so horrible, UM, even though that sucked, It was
not being able to be truthful about the fact that
I knew I was different. At that point, the language
for me was gay, UM, and I couldn't say that.
(20:18):
And then my tenth grade year, I had told my mom,
and then I was telling my dad and then um, yeah.
And then I came out at school. So my parents
didn't love the fact that I was this queer kid
telling them this, um, and it was a journey with them.
(20:39):
But coming out of school in high school was like
the greatest thing I could have done at that point.
It was it was freeing UM. And no one could
say anything to me because my truth was the scary thing, right,
And so now it's like, well, if you're holding that
truth like a shield, who can really say anything to
(21:01):
you now? UM. So flash forward to college and I
found a group of LGBTQ folks and met gender nonconforming
folks and trans folks and UM started performing and drag
at that point, and that was a period for me
(21:22):
where I was like, Oh, this actually isn't a performance,
this is who I am. Damn, I gotta say something again. UM.
By the by the point that I had kind of
had the language around being a transgender woman, my father
had passed away UM when I was nineteen. He had
(21:43):
a sudden stroke. And that also served as a catalyst
for me to realize that I have been trying to
fulfill these expectations for him and society around not honoring
my truth, and I couldn't do anymore and I didn't
want to live a life what forty fifty However, long
(22:05):
years after that, hopefully longer UM, where I was just
suffering because of everyone else's thoughts around who I was
supposed to be. UM. And so at that point, when
I came out as as a trans woman on Facebook
on coming Out Day, I think it was in October, UM,
(22:30):
everything kind of shifted and this weight was lifted off
and I could breathe, and so from there everything else
just kind of fell into place. UM. It took time,
but my mom, my sister, and my brother got on
board and and figured out their stuff around it. UM,
(22:53):
and I graduated, and then I had studied journalism. So
I see journal as a media organizing all of these
tools to shift the world and to create a world
that hopefully there won't be another little Roquel who feels
so lost. Right, I mean, obviously we know that we
(23:18):
still live in such a contentious time around gender identity,
but things have shifted so rapidly in the last few years,
and so I'm so grateful to be living in this
moment with so many great people moving this work too.
I'm absolutely positive that you've already done that for a
lot of little rock hills, I hope. So, I mean,
(23:43):
it's it's weird to um be a figure I think
two people, and it's taken a It's also taken me
a long time to come to terms with that, right that, Um,
I've been able to give other people a glimpse of
what is possible. UM. But I'm I'm honored for the
(24:05):
folks that I can be that for. So what do
you say if there's a little Raquel listening right now?
What do you say to that person who? I mean,
you put it so beautifully, wanting to share your truth.
What do you say that person, to that person who
wants to share their truth but feels like they can't.
I would say that sharing your truth UM and getting
(24:29):
to a point to share your truth is probably the
greatest battle of your life, whatever your truth is, UM.
And so I want to acknowledge that, because I think
that we don't acknowledge that enough. That yes, it is
difficult UM to live your most authentic UM life UM.
(24:53):
But I'll also say that there are more people out
there rooting for you then you may know, right UM,
and you have to figure out how to find those
people UM, whether it means going to a group that
(25:14):
UM you never would have imagined you would go to,
or or an organization or something like that, or or
UM moving to a place you need to spread your
wings in a way that you can and your current
UM environment. Do those things for yourself, and don't feel
guilty about that, UM. And I'll also say that there
(25:40):
is beauty and trying to get the people around you
or the people that you've always known to understand your truth.
But that can't be your only UM impetus or this journey,
right like, those people can't be at the core of
(26:05):
you accepting yourself. You have to figure out how to
do that on your own terms. Um, And that's what
has helped me. Right, It's not necessarily having these these
grandiose expectations of other people, UM, in a similar vein
to the ones that were put on me when I
was born. Right, you, you will get it if you
(26:27):
need to get it. If you can't get it, that's fine.
I don't need that energy in my life at this point.
Maybe I'll revisit it, and I have revisited people, um
who have done me harm in the past or not understood.
But you have to be selfish about your livelihood and
(26:48):
about your survival. We'll be right back after this quick break.
Speaking of living in your truth, it just makes me
think about you know, your your media maven, which means
so professed. So if you want to talk about how
you how you got to that title, to which I
love that, that would be great. But UM, just about
being authentic like online and how to how to live
(27:10):
your truth online, specifically when it comes to social media,
because I know a lot of people kind of associate
the social media sphere with like this manufactured image or
you have to be somebody. Maybe that you're not necessary
you necessarily feel that you are. How do you navigate
that world? Like, how do you remain authentic when you're
speaking to people online? That is such a good question.
(27:36):
How do I remain authentic when speaking with people online?
It takes work. Um. Sometimes I actually envy people who
can just say kind of this raw, unfiltered truth online
(27:59):
because I don't feel I do that. For me, I'm
very intentional about what I put out into the world. Um,
perhaps sometimes to my detriment, right perhaps, I you know,
rack my brain about things that I shouldn't. Um, But
I think when you come from journalism or messaging or
(28:24):
you're a writer, words matter, And so I will redraft
the tweet probably like three times on average before I
actually like tweeted out because I really take that seriously
and I really believe everything that we put out into
the universe it then lives there. So, you know, I
(28:49):
I think that we don't take it seriously enough that
this is an extension of who we are as a person.
And so if you wouldn't say that in person and
to a person or or just like out of your
mouth period, then you probably should not be saying that
online Because that actually has more eyes on it than
(29:11):
and more the eyes are the ears really for for
words online, um than anything else. And I it's it's
just baffling to me that people don't understand the power
of social media at this point. I mean, we literally
have a president who a large part of the reason
(29:33):
he is president is because of social media, is because
of the hype, is because of the coude of personality
that he was able to build through social media platforms.
So similarly, I just think that being authentic takes work,
(29:53):
and it takes a knowing of the south and so yeah,
I want to be clear that when I put things
out online, I can actually like stand by them in person. Yeah.
Someone once said think about it this way, that if
there was a New York Times headline that said, you know,
(30:14):
apro punk podcast host Bridget Todd says blah blah blah,
would you be comfortable with that? And that you should
think before you put anything out if it was a
headline that attributed to your name and your title in
your workplace, whatever, would that be okay with you? And
I think thinking of it that way kind of helped me. Um,
something that you said that I think is so interesting.
Is this idea of cult of personality online? I'm this
(30:38):
is a bit out of left field, but I have
noticed that people who become public figures in the social
change space, particularly on Twitter, I think that you kind
of can get so much influence that at a certain
point it becomes your own kind of echo chamber. And
because you have lots and lots and lots of followers,
you have a lot of kind of online clout, if
(30:58):
that's a thing, and an almost any idea you put out,
there's going to be people there to validate it and say, oh, yes, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.
But in a kind of way that sort of does
a disservice because you're not able to I mean, you're
in You're in your own little bell jar people validating
your ideas. Do you ever worry about that that you know,
because have you ever seen that online? And if so,
(31:20):
do you ever worry about that? Yeah? I mean I
think if you look on any celebrities Instagram or Twitter
or whatever, they can say the most ridiculous things, then
people will be like, that's brilliant, right, Like I um,
it's so funny, and this is this is this might
(31:41):
not apply so perfectly. But so Drake just released his
album Scorpion, right, and actually most people I know in
person were like, even like hardcore Drake fans were like, okay,
but like, if you go and look like right under
his next like image you posted on Instagram after it
(32:02):
was released, it's like all of these blue check people
that verified people saying oh it was great, Oh it's amazing,
dad da da da um. And it's funny to me
because that was really one of the first times I
kind of realized I was like, oh, this is all bullshit, Like,
(32:22):
there's no way every single one of these people thought
this was a masterpiece. They may have liked portions of it,
but thought that all of it was a masterpiece. Um.
And maybe part of it is they just support him whatever.
But I also think that the ways that celebrity and again,
this cult of personality, it's wrapped up in that it
(32:47):
warps our thoughts on different ideas and ways of treating people. Um.
And so I think about someone like Donald Trump, right,
who celebrity obviously his like giving him an armor amongst
(33:08):
all the other things privileges that have right, whiteness, maleness
being such, gender being heterosexual, the list goes on, the
less goes on and wealth, right, but celebrity gives people
of an even higher platform than they probably should have,
so they can say something like Mexicans are rapists to
(33:32):
start off their presidential campaign and then win and very
few people bad an eye when it initially comes out, right,
and now it's like, oh wait, yeah he did say that. Wow, right,
and you continue It's kind of like this this uh
what like a snowball effect because once you're desensitized when
(33:53):
you start with that, you can only get worse basically,
and it just becomes more and more acceptable. Like it's
easier to justify the last thing he said because the
thing before that was ridiculous as well. Right, And you
know there's also something that um, A good friend, Melissa
(34:13):
Harris Perry says. UM. She says that particularly around the election,
the fact that cameras were put on to Trump, right,
it gave it's like water and sunlight to any idea,
right when you're in front of a camera saying something
and it's like broadcast out. Um. And I think that
(34:36):
that's true of almost all media and social media as well,
Like you can say pretty much anything and if it
gets picked up, it's validated in a way that everyone's like, okay, well,
then I guess it's it's okay, right, So you can
say something really like imagine that line the Mexicans a
rapists line as a tweet and if you see that
(34:58):
tweet has like one hundred thousand likes, that is validation
on so many levels. So I think we don't talk
enough about that about how we kind of think of
like still in a way in this abstract form, but
how they actually do have consequences and it translates to
(35:21):
real life. But there was just a study released last
week saying that the number of hate documented hate groups,
particularly on college campuses, has risen and that that can
be directly connected to Donald Trump's rhetoric. And you know,
we need to remember that these things are not happening
in vacuums, that they happen, They're not just things happening
on Twitter. It can look that way, but actually they have,
(35:43):
as you were saying, like very real consequences in real life. Right, yeah,
And I you know, and I think you know, perhaps
and maybe one of have you want to call it
a silver lining, one of the silver linings of this
current administration, as that they are really unearthing a lot
(36:05):
of these things that have always been there, right, So
I like to say this the use this like example,
but let's say a year before the election, if I
were to talk about white supremacy as an activist, I
would be looked at like I was paranoid and ridiculous.
(36:28):
And to now see us having these kind of broad
cover like collective conversations about white supremacy specifically and anti
blackness is so interesting to me. Um. And similarly, looking
at how someone like him has unearthed the fact that
sexual assault and harassment and violence is so prevalent, right,
(36:53):
I think a lot of like folks who are women
or identify something outside of this kind of smell identity
knew that, right, But even in some ways talking about
that publicly made us look ridiculous before this current moment,
before Me Too movement kind of blew up. And so
I think that perhaps that can we can look at
(37:16):
that as like, maybe it's the silver lining that we
can have these conversations now, but obviously we have so
much work to do. I think that's so true. Um.
I think that particularly around talking about issues of anti
blackness and white supremacy from the political spectrum, you know.
I never mean, as you know, black particularly black queer
and black women organizers have been talking about these things forever.
(37:40):
I never thought out to the day where Cynthia Nixon
can be a front running congressional candidate and talk about
these things on a platform, right. I never thought out
through the day where we talked about things like reparations
or you know, abolish ice. I never thought out to
the day where you know, Kristen Gillerbrand, you know, sitting
member of our sitting senator, says we should abolish ice.
(38:03):
I never thought to the day that you know, the
rhetoric of prison abolition will be will be discussed by
white lawmakers and white you know, political hopefuls, and it
wasn't laughed out of the laugh out of the arena.
I never thought I would get there. And on that point,
like the other silver lining to this validation is that
we can we can have that instant like gratification, the
immediate gratification of knowing that you're reaching people like you
(38:26):
know that people are listening. I guess it's the other
the other upside to having that sort of online validation, right, Yeah,
I think that that's true, and I I'm also just
thinking about the fact that what has gotten or what
(38:47):
has garnered me a following online has been being my
authentic self, talking about my identity, all these different things
identities and all of these different experiences. And you know
that is the bitter sweet part of it, is that
there are people who have ugly truths right like actually
(39:10):
very damaging thoughts and ideas and aren't committed to being
transformed in them. Um So yeah, So, I mean, you know,
it's it's about realizing that all of these things are
tools and being very clear about what your core values are.
If you say your core values are empathy, vulnerability, um,
(39:36):
then you have to live in that with everything that
you put out into the world. I want to go
back to something you said earlier. You mentioned, um, like
the cameras being on Donald Trump. So it just made
me think about this idea of like, we're basically constantly surveilled, um,
and you, as a public figure, are always under the
watchful eye of based the entire world. Um So how
(39:59):
do like that's one sense of image, like the camera
being turned on you and eyes being turned on you,
but you also there's is also other sense of image
of like how we as people with different marginalized identities
put ourselves out on front street, Like, we also have
to think about how we look at ourselves and how
we deal with our image in in dealing with all
(40:22):
of these identities that we have. So I guess I'm wondering,
how do you balance or reconcile this fact that you
you know, you have eyes on you, so you have
like you have a public persona, but you also have
an image that you create for yourself, Like how do
you how do you balance that? It's hard? Um? I
(40:43):
I think it's about taking as many breaks as possible, um.
And again having that core group of friends and family
who ground me, right, who I actually have to tell
about things that I've accomplished so that they know like Okay, yeah,
(41:03):
she's like celebrating this right now because they don't their
their relationship with me is not following my every move, right.
Their relationship was like are you okay girl? Are you
in town? Like what's going on? Those kind of things,
And and that is really what his sustained me as
building those relationships and taking them more seriously. And I
(41:24):
think when I started to become more of a public
figure is when I started to really understand the necessity
of like fostering those relationships and and understanding that yes
they are work, but it's it's worthy work. UM. So yeah,
(41:49):
so I I think that they keep me grounding, UM
and keep me in balance with all of these different
faces to the public. Um. But it is hard. Um,
it is hard to have this like feeling of not
wanting to mess up or what the ramifications for other
(42:13):
people would would be if I messed up. So, like,
as a black trans woman who is UM visible and
and and a public figure, I don't want to mess
up opportunities for other black trans woman by messing up
UM or damaging relationships or anything like that, particularly professionally
(42:39):
or like in the movement. Well, in that way, is
hyper visibility as a black trans woman? Is it kind
of a double edged short sword where on the one hand,
it's good because you have a platform, but on the
other hand it's kind of not so fun sometimes. Yeah,
I mean that that sounds real. Yeah, I mean it
(42:59):
is great to have access UM and be able to
realize that that access can pro provide opportunities to help
other folks, to help other folks in my community. UM,
whether it's amplifying the work that they're doing, or um
(43:20):
doing programming that that will help strengthen the work that
they currently have, which is what my organizing is really
all about. UM. But it is difficult, um and and
I rarely talk about this period, but I think sometimes
(43:42):
I feel like I've sacrificed a lot already for the
work and for the movement in terms of like personal goals.
So I think about I think about love and romance
and having a family one day, and all of these
kind of thoughts, and then, you know, I wonder if
(44:05):
I've put myself too far out there, that I've made
those things impossible. Um, how do you reconcile that? Well,
my therapist helps shout out to her again. UM. You know,
I think it's about realizing that every struggle or um,
(44:27):
every hard period that I've been through before, UM, I've
gotten through it. So I'll have some epiphany one day
around how to balance all of this and balance being
this public figure and and doing this organizing and movement
work and being committed to it, and also being committed
(44:48):
to my personal goals around love and family and the
rest of my personal life. We'll be right back after
this quick break what what role do you like our
ancestors play in the work that you do, and then
just the way you move in the world, like does that,
does that? Does your lineage? And like ant does ancestry
(45:09):
drive you in any way? Definitely? So I have definitely
been thinking a lot more about the ancestors and that
kind of general sense, UM. And I think it's hard
as a black, queer trans person, right because you know,
(45:30):
the gosline is that we are ancestors wildest dreams, right,
And so for me, as someone who is at all
of these different intersections, I probably would be a wild dream,
you know, and perhaps to a lot of my ancestors,
I am a nightmare UM. And so that's a lot
(45:51):
to reconcile with. UM. Similarly, it's been a lot to
reconcile with this idea that you know, if my father
was being back down to Earth now and we were
passing each other on the street, would he recognize me?
And then when he did, what would happen? So it's
(46:12):
hard to balance all of that, But I, you know,
I have this idea that you know, all of these
spirits and ancestors um, whatever kind of human insecurities and
failings around understanding who I am that they may have had,
(46:32):
they don't have that anymore, and so they get it,
and so they're with me, they're protecting me, they're loving me, Um,
And I'm thankful for that. And the other benefit of
being also clear and trans is that I have all
of these other ancestors that I'm not necessarily biologically related to,
you know, So my ancestry is vast, you know. It
(46:56):
is the Marsha Peas and the Sylvia's um and as
all of these various figures who paved the way for
me to do the work that I do now and
live the life that I do now. Well, I was
going to say something that it seems to come up
again and again and again, uh, in your story, is
this idea of community you talked earlier about sort of
(47:19):
together as a collective community, making space for the feelings
that don't feel good, but then also finding joy and
beauty in that you talked about going to college and
meeting your your sort of secondary family and then helping
you sort of live in your truth. What role is
community played for you in your life? Well? Growing up?
And I'll go back to that Catholic upbringing, Um, And
(47:42):
also that my parents had us volunteering with the local
Red Cross chapter at like young ages. UM, I always
felt like I had a duty to be invested in
and my community, whatever that was, and see myself as
(48:04):
actually a part of it and not detached from it. UM.
And at that point, it was more around local community
because that's such a southern thing, um and a small
town thing. But community grew into something more for me. UM.
It grew into a place of solace, UM, a place
(48:26):
of exploration, a place of yeah, just trying on different
experiences to figure out like who I was, UM. And
that's what I think community can be, right. I think
that it can be these places where we grow in
ways maybe we couldn't in other spaces in our lives. UM.
(48:51):
And now, community to me is this kind of collective
group of like war years or resistors, right, UM, fighting
for survival in a world that we have told we
we exist and we deserve to exist, and now is
(49:11):
like yelling at us that we don't. Right, And so
I think that we're gonna We're going to win. I
know that we're going to win, and we'll have the
last word. Can you tell us a bit more about
your work as an organizer. Yeah, so my work really
has grown from something that was more about being isolated
(49:34):
in my writing or UM in my work in media,
to being more for facing in the community UM. And
so I have been for the last two years working
as a national organizer for Transgender Law Center, which really
means that I have been traveling across the country, meeting
(49:59):
with building with other transgender, gender nonconforming activists and advocates
who are moving important work. And so it's been beautiful
to see that there are such resistance UM and resilience
that has always been happening from everywhere like Alaska to Montana,
(50:23):
to the Deep South Louisiana, UM, Alabama, here in Georgia, Florida,
all of these different places, there are trans and gender
nonconforming people who are really shifting their environments and their
realities UM. And so as someone at a national organization,
(50:46):
it hasn't been about going in and telling people what
they need to do UM. It's really about shifting resources
so that they can better do their work. And and
I'm thankful to have this experience and thankful to to
now be working on a project UM specifically around black
transgender women and our healing UM and in the ways
(51:12):
in which we need safety, support and solace UM in
in a moment where they're such violence and harassment. Like
you said, you know, the increase in hate crimes UM
and or instances of hate is is astronomical UM. And
so this project I'm working in areas that have had
(51:35):
high rates of murder, high rates of violence UM really
to build spaces for healing justice. So talking about our
experiences and defining violence for what it is UM in
a way that we've never been able to, but then
also figuring out the ways to heal from those instances
(51:55):
and prevent them from happening in the future. One thing
that I would really love you to speak on, especially
in thinking about identity, is the importance of naming UM.
Whether that's taking back the power and names, whether that's
you know, removing the power from names UM, the importance
(52:15):
of names. Yeah, so yes, I think you know, when
it comes to naming it, it can be so many things,
and it is so many things. So I think for
marginalized people, there's a necessity of naming our experience on
(52:40):
our own terms UM, divorced from these systems that have
tried to name us for us UM, and so there's
power in that, right UM. And whatever way you choose
to do that, however you choose to identify yourself, um,
whether it is taking on a new name, which many
(53:01):
trans and general conforming folks do, many folks of different
religions do that too, write that can be a source
of power, UM. But there's also the naming of our
experiences UM. And so like I was saying, the naming
of violence. When we think about the violence that happens
(53:24):
to black transgender women, it is often named by other
people for us, and so many people don't get the
full story, who are outside of our community. And so
naming that violence has looked like having real conversations on
the fact that oftentimes it is our intimate partners or
(53:49):
domestic partners who are committing this violence against us, not strangers, right. UM,
It's people who do know our identities, and we've been
able to be vulnerable with and have turned on us
um because of society, because of their own expectations around
who they are. UM. And so this that's why this
(54:14):
work is so important, UM, and why I think that
there's a lot that everyone can gain from transgender and
gender non conformed people. I really believe that we are
the future. I believe that we give a glimpse of
a world where we are not encumbered by other people's
(54:37):
expectations for us. And the truth is, honestly, we're not
that different from everyone else because everyone is inherently gender
non conforming. This idea of the perfect woman or the
perfect man, or the perfect feminine person or the perfect
(54:59):
masculine p person, it's just that it's just the concept
is just an idea, it's just an image. But the
reality is, as we have all had points in our
lives where we were told we weren't being the way
that we were supposed to be. Whether it's little boys
and men told that they can't have an emotional intelligence
(55:21):
and cry and have a full range of emotions things
that are aspects of being human, or whether it's little
girls and women who are told that they can't be strong,
and they can't be leaders, and they can't be in
charge of their own destiny and have agencies. Those are
elements of humanity. And for all of the people in
(55:41):
between who fit neither scripts and were forced to figure
out their own path outside of all of that, that
just makes that makes me think when you say you
know We're not that different. Like what why is it
so hard for everybody to recognize it? I guess? How
(56:01):
does it? How does it feel to have like trans
our gender nonconforming identities put out on French streets are isolated,
I guess, and having to talk about them separately than
your other identities because it needs to be explained or
because there needs to be more awareness, just like you know,
(56:22):
like what now we have representation of trans people on
this show, or like this person was the first, like
having all these first, that was the first trans person
elected to you know, whatever office. It's like hard to
explain this, but like, how does it feel to like
or does it feel like it's kind of like working
(56:42):
backwards to have to kind of justify a part of
your identity that really shouldn't be isolated from all the
other parts of your identities. It's I would say that
there are two kind of conflicting feelings for me about
(57:02):
this UM. So there are times where I feel like
I shouldn't have to isolate my trans nous um to
be heard or be understood. UM. When I'm in different spaces,
I'm often the only trans person. So if I'm in
an all women's space or so called feminist space. I'm
(57:28):
often the only trans woman in there, and so then
I have to name it so that people understand that
they have a commitment to to this community. Um. But
I I should be living in a world where I
shouldn't have to be in the room for that commitment
to be upheld. Um. And I know many trans folks
(57:51):
who don't use trans as an adjective publicly because they're like, well,
I'm just man, or I'm just a woman, or I'm
just whoever I am, So why should I have to
add that? And that makes sense, right, because we're not
all activists. We're not all invested in in in trying
(58:15):
to like shift other people's thoughts and perceptions. That's the
work that I do. But I call myself an activist
and an organizer. Um And so there's no commitment for
everyone to name their identities in that way every single time.
But on the other hand, there are ways in which
we celebrate every other identity. But when it comes to
(58:39):
talking about and I won't say every other identity, but
many other identities in a way that we don't celebrate
trans identity. So if I am saying that I am,
you know a black woman in many spaces, that is
a sense of empowerment right for me to name myself
(59:00):
is that um. And it's more and more accepted nowadays
to name my blackness, to name my womanhood, But when
I name my trans hood or my trans nous, it
is still seen as a slide against me. Um. And
so there's this kind of like there's this weird kind
(59:23):
of I'm missing the word for it right now, but
this weird kind of pity that comes with naming my transness.
It's like, bless your heart for being able to say that,
or oh, you're so brave for being able to do that,
And that actually doesn't tell me that you hear me right.
That just tells me that you still see me as
(59:45):
so other that you have to see this identity as
something that I'm struggling with or I had to struggle
to hold onto. So it's both of the and it's
it's complicated because at any given moment, it could feel
one way and quickly feel the other way. UM. Because
(01:00:07):
when you have an identity that is so marginalized, you
really have to do some work on figuring out where
people are coming from when they ask you certain questions.
Or explore it with you. The question I have that
came from that was that you mentioned what it what
it's like to be the only trans woman in feminist spaces.
As we know from doing this work, there are plenty
of feminists, so called feminist spaces that explicitly say we
(01:00:31):
are not inclusive of trans women. What do you what
do you say to spaces like that that claim to
be about uplifting women but then explicitly will not be
inclusive of trans women. Well, I think that it's all
about being clear about what you're creating a space around.
(01:00:52):
Um and so you know, and this may not go
over well for some folks, but I can imagine that,
you know, possibly for some reasons, this woman would need
their own space. I would hope it's around unpacking and
(01:01:15):
figuring out how to be more understanding of your assision
the privilege. That would be my hope. I'm trying to
go into this with like best intentions. Um, but if
you're saying you're creating a women's space, I'm a woman period.
(01:01:44):
You know I'm not gonna give some full like essay
on why I'm a woman. I'm a fucking woman. It
is what it is, and So if you're creating a
woman's space and you into internally leaves trans women out
of it, that's not a woman's space. That's assist woman's space.
(01:02:06):
And you have made it clear that you don't honor
and support all women. So actually it's not a feminist space.
And I have gotten to the point, actually, I think
in the last few months where I'm like, actually, we
don't need to call turfs trans exclusionary radical feminists. They're
not feminists. They're assholes. Every time I see that, I think,
(01:02:32):
I mean, why are we giving them this? Why are
they make it clear? This is me on my high horse,
But they make it clear again and again they are
not committed to, you know, shared feminist ideals. So then
why do we have to give them this label? Why
why do we we don't you know? And I get why, um,
trans people and usually trans women have used this term, right,
(01:02:55):
And so I'm you know, use whatever term you need
to do, but it sis women and sis feminists who
claim to be trans inclusive or um whatever term you
want to use. I actually hate this idea of inclusivity
(01:03:15):
because it's ignoring the fact that we've always been there. Um.
But if you claim to be some kind of ally
or comrade to trans women. You need to be doing
that work of calling out these people who claim to
be feminists and exclude us, and that is not happening
on a larger level, right, So I need the glorious Dynams,
(01:03:36):
I need the Lena Dunham's, I need all of these people,
the Taylor Swift shout out to Beyonce, I love you girl.
I need you all to be like, oh, yes, I'm
a feminist. And also I'm denouncing these people who claim
to be feminists and don't support trans women. And if
you can't do that, and then you're not a feminist
(01:03:58):
period to me. And then I'll also say, I understand,
and I've had conversations with folks who do womb healing
UM and specifically reproductive justice around folks who have uterus
is or uterio have multiple um but uh, you know,
(01:04:24):
and and so a certain kind of reproductive system and
so yeah, definitely those need to be spaces um and
those are spaces that can be created. You know, I'm
not gonna say anything can't be. And I understand the
importance of that, but again, not everyone has this. Every
(01:04:48):
woman has the same reproductive system, and there are actually
men and non binary folks who have that reproductive system.
And so if you're going to create a space around that,
then honor them too. And then if you're not doing that,
then be clear. This is the CIS woman's space to
(01:05:10):
talk about reproductive justice. I would rather you be clear
than claim it to be something that it's not and
invite folks in based on that false claim. Right. That's
a good point. I was wondering too, if you feel
like your southernness shows up in your work in any way,
(01:05:33):
because like you know, isn't. It's showing up right now
on the mic. It's funny because it made me think
of it when you said bless your heart. So I
think people people have a lot of As a person
who's always lived in the South was born, I was
born in Columbius after a lot, and so I've been
in the Deep South for a long time. But I
think there are a lot of things that are misconceptions about,
(01:05:54):
you know, people who live in the South just as individuals,
but as a society in general, like and those misconceptions
can be harmful because it makes it seem like there
are things that we can't do or people who we
can't be um. But also there are things that are
very accurate that people generalize about the South as well.
So I was just wondering if you if you ever
(01:06:16):
feel that, like specifically when you're when you're working, when
you're organizing our or you know, doing your thing. Um. Well,
you know what's funny. As my mom, um she said
a few weeks ago, she was like, you know, and
I never remember how Southern you are until I hear
(01:06:38):
you speak publicly. And I'm like, okay, really, girl, you
know you of all people because her she is so
Southern to her accent is southic Um. But I definitely
do think my Southern nest comes out um, and I
think it's a core part of who I am. UM.
(01:06:59):
I was also having another conversation with my mom the
other day, and I was like, you know, I think
for a long time I had shame around being from
the South, um, because I think when I grew up here,
I really was defining it by all of the oppression
that has happened here. So you know, the Civil War,
(01:07:22):
the white supremacist um, being in the Bible Belt, and
hetero sexism says sexism, all these different things but that's
really a disservice because the beauty of the South is
that the people who have been so marginalized UM have
made many of us have made the claim to stay
(01:07:44):
here right UM and fight in in one of the
toughest fights across the country still to this day, UM,
whether it's around race or whether it's around gender or
sexual orientation, and UM, we do that. And so why
why can I define it based on the resilience and
(01:08:07):
the resistance that has always been here. So there's that,
and there's also just after living elsewhere, living in California,
I have to roll my eyes sometimes because there's such
privilege around progress UM. And so there are some things,
(01:08:34):
some fights they are that I feel like we're like
decades off of here in Georgia. You know, like in California,
there's all of this work that has happened around UM,
non binary gender markers, right, that is something I don't
even necessarily see on the horizon for Georgia. There's all
(01:08:58):
of this UM work around protections for transgender people, transgender
people who are incarcerated. I don't see that happening, that
work happening here because of just how steep UM the
conservatism is so so Yeah. I think if you can
(01:09:19):
make it in the style that you can make it anywhere.
Can you list off? So? I know we've talked about
yourself as a media maven and a black woman and
a Southerner. Now I'm curious, like, what are the like there?
I'm sure there are so many identities that people invite
you to talk about a lot, namely your transnis, your
black womanhood. What are some other identities that you feel
(01:09:40):
like don't get as much play because I don't know
that people. I don't. I don't. I didn't know you
were Southern until I heard you talk either. Um, what
are someone? What are some of the other identities that
make Raquel Raquel? Some other identities that make me me? Um?
I hate saying this, but I'm a Gemini. I was
(01:10:01):
getting Gemini V and I own my Gemini and I
don't hate him because I hate this identity, I guess,
but because of the reaction to it. Um, because I
often get you know, I think geminis are one of
the most hated signs, definitely probably the most hated sign,
(01:10:22):
and then scorpios are second. Um. But I think that
that they're rightful to be hated. Um. But anyway, so Gemini,
Um what else? I love Beyonce, UM, but I think
that's like over rated nowadays. UM. I love Prince. UM.
(01:10:48):
I actually really like music and studio was called Prince.
He booked it just for you, but we should have okay, cool? Um,
But I actually really like music, and I'm really I've
been into like analyzing music for a long time. UM,
so I'll like read up all the like theories on
like artists during the period they were writing things, because
(01:11:11):
I'm always intrigued by that and how they like produce work, um,
and reading like the different meanings of lyrics and all
of that. Like I remember before Genius, back in the day,
there was like song meanings dot Com, which was like
the first Genius. They kind of ripped them off or something.
(01:11:31):
I don't know, but so it's it's been a long thing.
And I actually when I started writing, I was writing
I was I wanted to be a songwriter, which very
few people know when I was like fourteen or fifteen. Um,
So yeah, so you can't. I wouldn't be surprised if
if ten years down the line it's raquel songwriter singer,
(01:11:56):
like I wouldn't be surprised if you're if your title
grew by ten things in you know, just a few years.
I'm hoping to add author to that soon. So, um
but maybe who knows, I don't. There's no lane, right,
So I think that's the other thing is there is
no lane for us. And what's so amazing about millennials
(01:12:17):
as much ship as we get is pretty much everyone
I know has created their own lane and as doing
multiple things and figuring out how to infuse their passion
into their work. Um. So I guess that's another identity
being a millennial. We hope you enjoyed the interview that
(01:12:43):
we had with for Kill. We definitely did, and there
will be more interviews in the coming weeks for you
to hear. Afro Punk Solution Sessions is a co production
between Afro Punk and How Stuff Works. Your hosts are
Bridget Todd and Eve's Jeff Cope. Executive co producers are
Due Douglas, Jocelyn Cooper, and Kuan latif Hill. Dylan Fagan
(01:13:04):
is supervising producer and audio engineer. Many many thanks to
Casey Pegram and Annie Reese for their production and editorial oversight,
and many thanks to her on the ground Atlanta Crew
Ben Bowland, Corey Oliver and Noel Brown. The Underside of
Power is performed by Algiers. Connect with us on Facebook,
Twitter and Instagram at afropol
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