July 8, 2025 • 52 mins
Marsha’s status as an icon extends beyond activism and into the arts. She was an inspiration to others and a creative in her own right. From her trendsetting DIY looks salvaged from New York’s dumpsters to her appearances with a downtown gay theater troupe, Marsha was immersed in the underground art world. In performances at home and abroad, she rarely sang on key and had to read her lines on stage. But still, audiences cheered her name and called for encores. Listen in as we explore Marsha’s style and artistry, along with the complex reality of being a muse to some of the biggest names in New York.
Check out our Instagram @afterlives.pod to see the photos and videos we mention in this episode. Plus, check out Randy Wicker’s Flickr album to see even more of Marsha’s legendary looks. You can also listen to Marsha P. Johnons’s 1979 interview with Steven Watson courtesy of Artifacts at www.artifacts.movie.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
After Lives. It's a production of iHeart Podcasts and the
Outspoken podcast Network in partnership with School of Humans. Just
the heads Up, the following episode discusses racism, homophobia, and transphobia.
Take care while listening.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You know, in the seventies there was also these clubs
like Twelve Wests and Flamingo and so forth. You'd see
Marsha in these environments and Peter Rabbit and what was
that place called cris Co Disco.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
This is Rick Shuoper. You've heard him throughout the series.
He's the photographer who met marsh in the village back
in the early sixties. They stayed friends throughout her life
and hung out in some pretty sleazy spots by the peers.
But Rick also ran into Marsha at the clubs, even
at places he never expect, like a rich butch leather bar.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Marcia did not think I don't belong here.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
She was truly comfortable with who She was confident enough
to smooth with all kinds of people. Rick has one
story that I absolutely love.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
This is the late eighties and I was at the
Spike Bar. There was a super leather boar and I
was standing out in front. There smoking a jay.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
That's when Marcia comes by the bar asking for spare change.
Nothing unusual. Rick gives her dollar. They talk a little.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Bit Earlier in the bar, I had seen this person,
a person of small stature who was wearing a leather
jacket with the collar turned up and whose head was
wrapped in one of those you know, those that kind
of scarf that it has a certain like check pattern.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Rick noticed this person but didn't think anything of it.
While he was standing outside with Marcia, the person.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Walked by Marsha without missing a beat, turned and said, oh, hello,
miss Madonna, and Madonna said I'm incognito. Wow, it was Madonna,
and Marcia just didn't miss it, you know I did.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, she clocked her, absolutely absolutely. It's wild to me.
The spectrum of people Marsha brushed up against. This is
just one story and a life immersed with artists and creatives,
and Marcia was one of them, a performer and artist,
an inspiration and amuse. Decades before Marcia's legacy took on
(02:43):
a life of its own as a symbol of the
LGBTQ plus movement, Marcia carved out a name for herself
in the zeitgeist I'm Rachael Willis and this is Afterlives.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
They called me a nage because it's how many points
God that I'm one of the few waits still net,
few waits still.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Net, few wats.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
I didn't make expensive every day anywhere.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Episode five, I stole the show.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I remember seeing Marsha in metallics.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
This is Rick again. Just to note that at points
you'll hear Rick refer to Marcia by he him pronouns.
Rick and Marcia had some good times on the disco
floor back in the seventies, but what really stands out
to him were her outfits.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
The dumpster diving diva, Marsha really emerged.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
This was a staple of how Marcia moved through the world.
She had a look you couldn't find anywhere else because
she wasn't buying her fits, she was creating them herself.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Those dumpsters down and Soho used to be a place
where they did a lot of manufacturing, have clothes and stuff,
and he would go in there and find all this
shit to wear and wear it, you know, make these
outfits out of it that were just beyond belief.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Other people might have been dancing in metallic fabrics, but
sometimes Marshall wore actual metal.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Obviously, there was some company that would take these sheets
of like a thin metal, like a plastic, and they
would cut big circles out of it for some reason,
and then the remnants would get just tossed. They couldn't
be used.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Somehow, Marcia turned the shiny cast off into a show stopper.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
She had made a whole outfit of these swirling metallics,
because when you twist it and wrap it, it just
becomes this I don't know, covering. I don't know how
to describe it. You know, it would just come appearing
like that on a Saturday night at one of these clubs.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Rick struggles to find the right words here, which says
a lot. There are no words, because this isn't just
a dress, Darling, It's a piece of art made out
of industrial materials. Do you think Marcia considered herself an artist?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Why so?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Marcia was so creative. I mean she was show up
an outfits that she just could your eye popping. You
could recognize that this was all dumpster diving, but like, wow,
not everybody can do that. It's your performance.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Want to see some of Marsha's legendary outfits. Check out
our Instagram at afterlives dot pod, or follow the link
in our show notes. Her old roommate Randy Wicker, has
a whole flicker account for your viewing pleasure. Marcia had
it all long, lacey dresses, feathered skirts, short shorts, and
(05:54):
fur coats. And let's take a moment for the head pieces.
One made of Christmas lights, some made up sparky party supplies,
another constructed from small tiles and feathers. One hat has
a life size bird sitting on top of it, and
of course there are many many flower crowns spanning different
(06:14):
blooms and colors of the rainbow. It took real skill
to construct all those elements and have them stay on
top of her head. In nineteen seventy nine, she was
profiled by the Village Voice. It's a whole article about
her and her place in the community. Her style, of course,
was central to the piece. While people in the streets
(06:38):
wore plaid shirts and jeans, our girl was dressed to
the nines.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
This is a crowning achievement of Marsha that Marcia was
just Marsia all the way. There was no to Marsha Johnson's.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Steve Watson wrote the article for The Voice, which was
lee paper covering New York's down town scene. He asked
Marsha about who inspired her.
Speaker 6 (07:05):
I want to know who is your personal stars?
Speaker 7 (07:10):
Of our personal stars Jackie Carrots, Chop Dot, the Arica.
Speaker 5 (07:15):
Ching is mined, What's Love.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
You might not recognize all these folks names, but they
each have an important place in the city's art world
as playwrights, actors, and so called Warhol superstars. Marsha may
have been living in the dingiest tenement you could imagine,
but she was also in the art world and on
the dance floors during New York's Golden age of nightlife.
(07:42):
This was the era of Grace Jones, Diana Ross and
Cher partying at Studio fifty four. It's Robert Maplethorpe and
David Bowie at Maxis Kansas City. It was a vibrant time.
The city was in a fiscal crisis. Rent was cheap,
and alternative culture was popping off. You didn't have to
(08:04):
be wealthy. Being interesting and creative could get you very far.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
These are all people who thoroughly believed in themselves, side
by side with being absolutely people who were subjected to
the same self doubts as every other fagot. They were
subjected to the same shaming shit, but they managed to
do their thing.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
In this era and environment, being yourself could be an
act of resistance. The Village Voice affirmed that Marsha's outfits
quote turn conventional values on their head, publicly affirming herd differentness.
While dumpster diving may have been a reality for other
street queens, that article declares her as the leader, setting
(08:52):
new trends and going after sky high energy.
Speaker 6 (08:56):
Marcia gave her visual sense very generously to other people.
Other people get the beauty of Marsha's vision just to
Marsha being there.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Tommy land Again Schmidt is an artist who came up
in the Village at the same time as Marcia. You've
heard him throughout our series today. His work is a
part of the collections at the Whitney, MoMA and the.
Speaker 6 (09:21):
Met Marcia's a genius, Marsha's an artistic genius.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
There's no doubt in Tommy's mind about Marsha's brilliance.
Speaker 6 (09:30):
When I was a little kid, I thought a genius
was someone who could spell big words, or like solve
our crazy math problem. So a Genius is anyone who
knows how to pull together who they are with a
minimum of input from the world that wants to make
them into a standardized product.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
There's that saying that if you wake up in the
morning and all you can think about is writing, then
you're a writer. And whether Marsha was sewing banners for
protests or turning a look of discarded metal, she moved
through the world making art. Being art is that.
Speaker 6 (10:07):
Mix and knowing how to get like an end table
scar from tied around her waist to make it into
a mini skirt, and how to get like a wig
that was made for a Halloween for Peter Pole and
marry white purl wig blonde hair and throw it on
her head and then be able to take that off
when she wanted to.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Marcia was the subject of a Warhol print, but that's
not what made her art. He did the portrait because
of who she was.
Speaker 6 (10:36):
Marcia was always the art. She is in the street
all the time. Marcia was a street person, and we
have to keep Marsha in that at the same time
realize Marsha's a genius.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
When Tommy characterizes Marcia as a street person, we do
well to remember which streets she was on. The village
was a queer mecca, a haven for artists at a
time when creatives could get by in a decaying New
York City. She hung out with people who admired her
dumpster diving treasures, and they adore the Marcia who stepped
(11:12):
off the streets and into the spotlight. A glimpse of
the whimsical, unrehearsed and off the charts performances as only
(11:32):
Marcia could deliver. That's when we come back, Hey, gull.
Speaker 5 (11:43):
Ladies and gentlemen, the Queen of the Isarland and the
Sage Chris.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
This is Jimmy Camechia introducing Marsha in nineteen eighty eight.
He's standing on stage at the Theater for the New
City in the East Village with a mustache, slick back hair,
and lots of eye makeup.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Jimmy has been saying all these wonderful things about me.
Speaker 5 (12:15):
You have made me a dog for the last fourteen
years in New York.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Peaches off and on between breakdown.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Marsha comes in in an auburn wig tied into pigtails,
big hoop earrings, and a shimmering gold backless dress.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
And I'd like to send your songs on you call
up my stroke pace.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
In her right hand, she carries her signature prop, a
heart shaped chocolate box that has song lyrics taped to
one side. The music cues and Marsha begins, but she
only gets through a few lines before us Again, Yeah,
(13:04):
it's obvious from this clip alone, Marshall wasn't your typical performer.
This is what's typical for Marsha somehow, though instead of
awkward silence, there's applause. They're eating it up. She stumbles
a few more times, still reading off the paper, but
by the end she's looking up hand on hip. You
(13:28):
can see it on our Instagram at Afterlives Dot pod.
And she finishes strong, despite being completely off key in
(13:49):
a land far far away from hitting the notes and
maybe closer to yelling than actual singing. Her fans call
out for an encore.
Speaker 8 (14:03):
She was flawless unstage, but not flawless in the way
you would think. Whatever it was that she did, every audience,
every time, every place adored it.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
More than thirty five years after Jimmy introduced Marsha. During
that performance, we met up with him at a library
in the village.
Speaker 8 (14:25):
My theory is that most people in the theater are
there to impress you. What does that mean? That means
I can do this?
Speaker 9 (14:33):
Watch me.
Speaker 10 (14:34):
Marsha wasn't there to do that. I don't even think
she ever thought about that.
Speaker 9 (14:38):
She was there to entertain the audience.
Speaker 8 (14:41):
Her primary concern was the audience.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Lots of people have theories about Marcia's performances. People said
she wasn't a singer, but a performer, that she was
giving the audience something they'd never seen before. Knowing your
lines as basic, messing up up it is more exciting,
they said, you never know what might happen. She brought
(15:06):
the spontaneous, unpracticed energy of the street into the theater,
and it was magic.
Speaker 9 (15:13):
She was not there to impress.
Speaker 8 (15:15):
I don't know what the hell she was there for,
but she liked it, so I would put her in
different things.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Jimmy grew up in Elizabeth, just like Marsha, but he
went to college and lived abroad for a while before
moving to the village in nineteen seventy one. When he
got there, Marcia introduced him to an underground counterculture filled
with musicians, painters, writers, people he wanted to be around.
The fact that everyday people could be a part of
(15:41):
it made the scene what it was. In nineteen seventy two,
this scene inspired Jimmy to start the Hot Peaches.
Speaker 8 (15:51):
I would say that Hot Peaches was a company whose
objective was to do gay theater.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Jimmy wrote songs, scripts, and planned tours for the group,
and even performed himself. He said, at the time it
felt like a lot of theater companies implied they were gay.
He wanted to be direct about it, to make queerness
central to what The Hot Peaches did.
Speaker 11 (16:16):
Both mess you Lynn and then oh. Then to suppress
one side would be just guess.
Speaker 8 (16:31):
We were into something called androgyny. It was very big
at the time, trying to give expression to both your
male and female thots.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
The Hot Peaches have a song about exactly this. It's
called androgyny, Jimmy says. Naturally, gender not conforming folks and
drag queens wanted in and they were welcomed.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
These queens. You're prancing around doing drag and so forth.
In that era, it's defiant.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Marcia's friend Rick Super got to witness some of the
magic of Hot Peaches.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
There was all these people who in many ways had
difficult lives because they were misfits, but not laying down,
not embracing defeat. Oh contrare. You know we're putting on
a show.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
This wasn't your typical lip sync for your life, high
fem glitter drag show.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Though they definitely had that live of being a gender
fucking I guess it's the work and job.
Speaker 6 (17:46):
Hang out.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
The Hot Peaches definitely were gender fucking and provocative and political,
all values Marsha stood for.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Well, I don't think Marsha ever wanted power. No, she
just wanted to be able to get up on the stage. Yeah,
she had a right to be up on the stage.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
A nineteen seventy eight review by The Advocate admidst the
Hot Peaches are not for everyone. For some, there are
just a lot of noise and slopping around, but the
article adds that for others, the group taps into dreams
of a gay revolution where street queens are finally seen
as the heroes.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
The cogic and industry.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
They may have been there for the revolution, but they
were still silly and scrappy. Costumes were thrifted or picked
out of the garbage, then basically stuck together with spit and.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Glue costumes that were just whipped together by people of
infinite resource, zero budget, infinite resource.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
There were bright colors and boas, sun glasses, big hats,
and wild wigs. The shows were often held at small,
independent theaters, but Rick also saw one show at a
former church. Sometimes they performed outside, in parks or in lofts,
and at times those lofts were also Jimmy's bedroom. Rick
(19:20):
says the audience was mostly gay, but there were definitely
straight people there too. At some shows, we'd wafted through
the air. During at least one performance, people laid on
mattresses and cushions instead of sitting in chairs.
Speaker 8 (19:35):
They thought, you'll never get to Broadway with this stuff,
And I'm thinking, who the hell wants to go to?
Speaker 9 (19:40):
What am I going to do there?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Jimmy says. Sometimes the hot Peaches were misunderstood. Some people
assumed the group wanted to do polished productions and serious
dramas but just couldn't pull them off. That was never
the goal, though.
Speaker 8 (19:56):
I wasn't interested in being an actor, and I wasn't
interested in as I was interested in artists.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
They were reviewed by local rags and gay papers, but
also in the pages of Variety and Time Out London.
The New York Times called one show quote funny, clever,
ever so likable, and said the bitchery is often hilarious.
Among the Hot Peacher's repertoire were queer twists on classic
(20:25):
stories like The Wonderful Wizard of Us.
Speaker 8 (20:28):
Rewrited only make Dorothy a New York girl trying to
get on welfare where she can get free.
Speaker 9 (20:36):
Money and food.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Marcia played Dorothy's companion in one of those productions that
was definitely not in Kansas Anymore. Instead of the brainless scarecrow,
she was a go go dancer on speed. In another,
Marcia was cast as the Queen of Hearts. It was
Alice in Wonderland, except this time it was about Little
Alice Finkelstein, a suburban girl who follows her cousin Bunny
(21:01):
Whitt into New York's underground.
Speaker 8 (21:04):
She got this big fairy tale gown, and because she
was Queen the Heart, she cut out paper hearts and
pinned them to the gamp.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
During Marsha's first year with the Hot Peaches, she appeared
in over thirty performances and kept on kicking.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I've been working with the Hot Peaches for about twenty
thousand year that Stafle Jimmy making.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Me a star.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Marcia talks about her time on stage in a couple interviews.
Before the Hot Peaches, she also worked with another theater group.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
I've been very.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Fortunate in my life to get all those jobs, like
working in the Hot Peaches and working with the Wonderful
People and the Angels of Light.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
The Angels of Light was a San Francisco based precursor
to the Hot Peaches, but their touring productions dazzled New Yorkers.
Celebs like the Rolling Stones, David Bowie, John Lennon, and
Yoko Ono turned turned out to see them. When Marcia
showed up, they loved her kookie style.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
I mean, I was very fortunate, you know, to be
black and gay and get as far as I've gotten
in this world. You know, it's just not too many
black transvestics.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
To get anywhere.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
In one recording, Marcia is being interviewed by friend and
fellow Hot Peach Tony Nunziata. He tells her that what
she's done is pretty extraordinary, and she reveals an even
bigger dream.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
I mean, I want to be a movie star.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
I want to be a Holly but making two hundred
and fifty thousand dollars, but taking off my something like Madonna,
one of those wonderful people, Michael Jacks and stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
She never hit the big screen in her lifetime, but
has been the subject of documentary since. Filmmaker Michael Cassino
recorded this interview with Marcia and writer Larry Mitchell. Later
he included in his twenty twelve film Paid My Mind.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
So once you're knockout number, I think this don't called
lab de balloon?
Speaker 5 (23:08):
Can you sing a blue corse?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
I have elve in dear Balloon.
Speaker 5 (23:14):
I'm gonna bload it up quite soon.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
It's gonna take me to the day.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Marcia is mostly following the tune in this interview on stage,
though it was a different story. One review of The
Hot Peaches noted that some members of the cast were
ridiculously talented, others, like Marsha were quote talented at ridiculousness.
At one point, Jimmy wondered what would happen if she
(23:44):
did sing a little less off key.
Speaker 8 (23:47):
I thought, well, let me help her get it right,
So I said to it. One day, I said, Marshall,
let's go.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Over to this saw.
Speaker 9 (23:53):
You could get this word it's not very hard.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
I'm gonna drift right through the night.
Speaker 5 (24:00):
Together, will be outa side.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
To his surprise, she got it right in no time
and she sang on stage just like she did for him.
Speaker 8 (24:11):
That was that next night she goes out and totally
screws up the story. So I said, Marcia, what happened?
She said, they like it better this way, and she
was right.
Speaker 9 (24:23):
They did. It's got up fly Me to the Moon.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
I'm sam.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Waiting for uh.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I think about Marcia as a kid, surprising her siblings
by raking in the cash with her off key Christmas carols.
Writers and critics called her a living gay archive, the
original Queen of Christopher Street, ghost, and lovable with an
inimitable style. Over the years, Marcia was on and off
(25:03):
with the Peachas. During her run as the Queen of Hearts,
she had a breakdown and ended up in Bellevue. Jimmy
worried that being in a featured role was just too
much pressure, so he'd have her pop in for just
one song, or she'd be the.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
MC Today's and Jackerman Rebelcoon You to the second annual
Tarvest Moon cabaret night. We have lined up at Flavist Baptist.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
When Marcia came on stage, she often had a cause
she was supporting or raising money for.
Speaker 8 (25:37):
Well, Marsha, how are you doing.
Speaker 9 (25:41):
Oh well, it's going fine so far.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
That's Jimmy and Marcia again in that Hot Peaches retrospective
from nineteen eighty eight, Sure.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Fifty Street in case anybody interested, from two to four.
Speaker 8 (25:55):
Tomorrow, I drank my partner gave movement this year to
help great money they gain prime.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
One time, Marcia collected ticket money for a hot Pitch
of show to benefit Star, the Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries.
At the end of the show, Jimmy asked her for
some of the cash so he and some other people
carrying props could take a cab.
Speaker 8 (26:21):
And she goes, I don't have any money, Well, where's
the money from.
Speaker 9 (26:25):
The box open? I gave it to Star. You gave
them all the money. Well, the benefit was the Star.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
The way Jimmy saw it, the profits would go to Star.
That's how benefits usually work.
Speaker 8 (26:39):
The money goes to this one and that one and
the other one, and when it comes to really you
did the benefit for they're getting a slice.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
That was Marsha.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Sometimes Marcia took tickets at the door. If someone didn't
have enough money, she would just wave them through. Not
ideal for a group that really needed the cash, But
then Jimmy noticed how someone else in line would chip
in a little extra to make up the difference. Marsha
was creating an environment where people could be generous to
(27:10):
one another, and on some level, that's what made her
a star. On top of all the magic she created
on stage. In nineteen ninety one, Marcia got a big
opportunity to have her name in lights.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
I never thought nightd it in London.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
She was invited to go on tour with The Hot
Peaches in London.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
I'm still get to get my steps? Did I still
have it? What have you been London? I still the show?
And ARIZONI again star.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
The Hot Peaches toured a lot, usually moving around different
cities and venues in Europe. This show would be thirty
days at one theater in London. It was all paid
for and the logistics were pretty simple. Jimmy thought this
was the perfect setup for Marsha. She dressed for the
part from day one, showing up to the airport in
(28:07):
an English tweed suit.
Speaker 9 (28:09):
She was ready at one point Marcia went somewhere.
Speaker 12 (28:14):
I always said it was the Queen's guarden and picked
the flowers to.
Speaker 9 (28:18):
Go into a hair.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
This is Michael Lynch, a New Yorker and lifelong performer
who also traveled to London with The Hot Peaches.
Speaker 12 (28:26):
They did an interview, she said, I think the Queen
would want me to have it dolling because she's fabulous
and I'm fabulous too.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Michael, also known by the stage persona Michelle, joined The
Hot Peaches in the late eighties and quickly bonded with Marsha,
especially as black queer folks in a scene that could
be pretty white.
Speaker 12 (28:48):
I always say it was like knowing your auntie, so
you knew she was family, You knew she was for
you immediately.
Speaker 9 (28:55):
It was a pure heart that came through.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Michael says that in London they checked out the East
Indian gay scene and explored black neighborhoods like Brixton. They
ate and partied, and Marcia took it all in.
Speaker 9 (29:10):
Marcia was Marsha? Where was she went?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
A close up of her mid song and a Ryan
Stoneheart's here a Grace the front page of Time Out London.
In another British newspaper. Marcia declared, quote, I'm not sure
London is ready for us. Michael says, it really wasn't.
Speaker 7 (29:28):
I had a pair of sparkly rigged booty short that
Warren show, and at one point Marcia came out of
the hotel where we were standing in these shorts, and
you know, those big double decker buses almost turned over
she walked in there.
Speaker 9 (29:48):
I'd say, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Every night they returned from their adventures to perform at
the Drill Hall in the West End. There's a couple
photos Michael showed us that the cast hanging around backstage
in black and white. They sit and talk, sipping glasses
of wine and pints of beer. In one picture, Marsha
looks halfway into costumes, still wearing a sweatshirt and a jacket.
(30:13):
Her hair is pushed back like she's going to put
on a wig. She's holding a coffee cup and smiling big.
You can see it on our Instagram at Afterlives dot pod.
London's Capitol gay newspaper wrote this of the Hot Peaches Tour,
twenty years in the business and New York's most outrageous
exports still defies definition. Hot Peaches is a clown show,
(30:38):
a drag act, a cabaret, a coming out party, a
spiritual experience, depending on which peach you pay greatest attention to.
Marsham brought a lot of heart to the hot peaches.
These were her friends and fellow creatives. She cared for
them and was inspired by them. It went both ways.
Speaker 12 (31:01):
I started to identify more in my female feminine side
by knowing people like Marsha.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Jimmy even wrote a couple shows inspired by Marsha. One
called Divas of Sheridan Square, takes closely after her life.
Speaker 9 (31:17):
Monday morning, woke up free. All I wanted was to
be me.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
The protagonist is a queen and Bellevue Hospital. She's wearing
a hospital gown and thinks back to Stone Wall, reflecting
on the hardships of the folks who fought and had
been forgotten. Michael shared this song from the show with us,
call Tighter.
Speaker 9 (31:40):
Smoked a joy and they got me Hi Hi, As
I could be met two girls who screamed, hey, look
at the fag brobably, Damn man, what a drag punched
a hole in my gay bag? Just cannot be me
and it's getting tighter.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
The show ends with a number that is undeniably Marsha.
It's a poem called spare change for a dying Queen,
a phrase everyone in the village associated with her outstretched hand.
Speaker 12 (32:17):
Spacer chase for dying Queen Dollar. I know you don't
believe me, but let's queens do what we talk about.
Yes we do.
Speaker 9 (32:24):
We're for the liberal rights shot.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Michael did a complete rendition three minutes long, entirely from memory.
It was incredible. We'll play it right after the credits
of this episode so you can hear it.
Speaker 12 (32:40):
I heard about the Stone Wall, and I thought I'd
go over and check it out, and Lord have mercy.
When I walked in, I couldn't believe my eyes. There
were men dancing with men, and women dancing with women.
Speaker 13 (32:52):
And way in the back, way in the back well,
my sisters.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Michael keeps the one that was the Hot Peaches alive
to this day. He did a retrospective of their songs
at Lincoln Center in twenty twenty one. He also sees
himself as a keeper of Marcia's memory.
Speaker 9 (33:13):
As Michael Michelle Lynch, I'm grateful that I have lived
a life I.
Speaker 12 (33:19):
Have known someone who not only has gone down in history,
But who has touched my life?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
The hot Peaches may have taken Marcia to London, but
after the break, Marcia goes fully mainstream.
Speaker 5 (33:34):
Honey, I walked right down Andy wall Halt's office and
walked in, and Andy wallhallt loved it.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Stay with us.
Speaker 10 (33:53):
Marcia on Bleaker Street, seated on a stoop, smoking a cigarette.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Welcome back to Afterlives. This is Judy Gara, a Socia
director of collections at the Leslie Lohman Museum of Art.
You heard her in our first episode. Judy walked us
through images of Marsha on a visit to the Queer
Art Museum in Soho. She's describing a photograph taken by
(34:19):
gun Rose in nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 10 (34:22):
With that classic smile. She's got her just her furs on,
very comfortable her leg warmers.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Gun Rose visited New York and did a lot of
street photography. One day, he just happens to pass by
Marsha downtown.
Speaker 10 (34:36):
I love the pink leg warmers. That eighties five really
gets me. With the matching Sparkley beret. Oh, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
On top of all that, she's wearing a red boa
and turquoise pants It's an explosion of color, but feels
like more of an everyday kind of look. She looks casual,
She's not wearing a full face of makeup or a wig.
She's just living her daily life and looks happy to
be in front of a camera.
Speaker 10 (35:02):
It was more than her presence of just being at
the right place at the right time. It was her energy.
It was her aura, and he captures us. I think
so so lovely here.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
This photo makes me just want to join Marsha on
the stoop. She has this glow like she's someone you'd
want to talk to. You can check out this picture
on our Instagram at afterlives dot pod. Marsha attracted people
to her like this. She may have been a dying
queen in need of spare change, but people on the
(35:32):
street would also stop and take photos with her. She
was somebody and photographers had the desire to capture her
over the years. True story. She's even on the cover
of an Earth Wind and Fire album, and that brings
us to mister silkscreen himself, Andy Warhol.
Speaker 6 (35:53):
To give people that understand Marsha's reviews, you have to
understand a few other people.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Tommy Land against Schmid again. He tells me that Warhol
didn't go around scouting the streets for people to photograph.
He met people through his A list, friends and other
folks who hung around his studio the factory.
Speaker 6 (36:12):
Because remember, this is a world of everyone Nixon, and
so you can ever talk about anyone totally isolated.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Marcia and Warhol got a clean it through this downtown network.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
He took some photos and then he made a stiff
screen and they made just sop screen into a group
of soap screens. And it's called Ladies and Gentlemen.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
When Marcia tells the story, she tells it like it's
a lesson in being yourself. She says, the very day
she sat for Warhol, she'd been turned away from a
movie audition.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
They tell me you're not what I want. I don't
like the way you look.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Marcia knew who she was, though this wasn't going to
deter her.
Speaker 5 (36:54):
Hi, I walked right down and you all Halt's office
and walked in. Andy Walhall loved it to say, it
ain't always with the other person.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Thinks it's always with you. Thanks you presented yourself in.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
The same blue dress she wore to that failed audition.
Landed our role in art history.
Speaker 5 (37:15):
Made me a porch. He's down five thousand dollars copy.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Now five thousand and nineteen seventy five is over thirty
thousand in today's dollars. Warhol's factory was doing just fine.
Speaker 10 (37:29):
He is at the height of his career, right. He
is in demand. He is making screenprints glore. He's really
made a name for himself. I mean, how many artists
under popular culture, right, So he is a household name
beyond the art world.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
By this point, Judy explains that at the time Warhol's
getting tons of commissions, one comes in from an Italian
art dealer. The art dealer even gave him the title
Ladies and Gentlemen and specifically asked for m per Arsenal
anonymous portraits of dry queens and trans women.
Speaker 10 (38:04):
So he picks fourteen models, and he takes over five
hundred polaroids of them, and then from there he creates
the series of screen prints and paintings of these fourteen models.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Marcia is one of them. Her silkscreen is a black
and white image printed over a few colored pieces of paper.
It looks kind of like a collage.
Speaker 10 (38:26):
Her hair, which is a wig with braids is seen
in a yellow paper, her face is printed on a
brownish red paper, and her lips are printed on a
bright pink that oversizes the actual shape and contour of
her lips themselves in the screen printed photo.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Can I be honest as famous as this piece is,
I don't like it at all. Obviously, it was important
to signify that Marcia was a black queen with the
brown paper on her skin. The lips are where it
goes really wrong. They're made to look oversized in a
way that looks like a menstrual trope. It's just very
(39:07):
off putting to me.
Speaker 10 (39:09):
It took until like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen until they
actually were able to identify all of the subjects of
these like thinancut records, and one is still unidentified as
at this point of the.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Fourteen This is probably the most valuable image out there
of Marcia, and it's very tokenizing. She and these other
trans and gender non conforming folks were used to satisfy
some art collector who explicitly had no interest in who
they actually were, not to mention the racism of the imagery.
(39:42):
Marsha and the other models were paid fifty bucks each
for images that made Warhol so much more money.
Speaker 6 (39:50):
That was all robbed. But that's the art world as robbers,
and the being robbed.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
As an artist. Tommy knows that this is just the
ugly under belly of the high end art world. But
Marcia was still excited to see the final piece. She
strutted to the gallery on Christopher Street where her portrait
was hanging. There's a photo of her standing in front
of it, blond wig fur coat, looking totally glamorous. But
(40:19):
the people in the gallery called her riff raff and
they threw her out on the street.
Speaker 6 (40:27):
Through even gay bars that had pictures of Marsha's Warhole
portrait in the window that wouldn't let Marsha in because
Marsha was a street person. That showed you how stupid
people can be.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
It's easy to sit here now and shake our heads
at the people who turned Marsha away. Tommy is asking
us to do something harder, though, To hold onto both
sides of Marcia takes genuine reflection. Ask yourself, how would
you respond if you saw Marshall on the street, if
(41:01):
she walked up see you in a bar where you
were drinking and asked you for spare change.
Speaker 6 (41:08):
I'll be perfectly honest today, most of these people that
talk about Marshall like they love her would have ran
away from her, have been horrified. If you can't handle
someone that comes up to you in the street and
ask you for a quarter, you could not have been
around Marsha.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
It might feel good to buy some merch with Marsha's
face on it or hold her up as an icon,
but honoring her legacy is about much more than that.
It's about reaching out to people in need. There are
people on the street today wrestling with the same systemic
issues Marsha did decades ago.
Speaker 6 (41:45):
The next time someone comes up, no matter who they are,
and asked you for some money, give it to them,
because that's what Marshall was about, one of the many things.
And when they asked for a quarter, give them a
twenty dollars bill.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Marshall would have needed the money, but it's also likely
that if she got the money, she would have shared it.
She never struggled without recognizing other people's struggles too.
Speaker 6 (42:11):
And you'll learn more by giving people twenty dollars bills
about the street than you will from me, And you'll
learn more about Marsha that way and you'll learn a lot.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
There's one more image of Marcia that I want to
leave you with. There's something really honest about the photo,
something down to earth but still special. It was taken
in the studio of a friend.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
At one point I just asked Marsha, like Marcia, I
would love to do a portrait of you.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Rick super had a photography studio in his apartment.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
I knew Marshall would come prepared.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
She showed up on time with multiple changes of clothing.
Rick remembers that the day was laid back, that Marsha
wasn't super high energy. She wasn't on until she got
in front of the camera.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Are you've seeing like the stereotype fashion shoot, like where
they're clicking away and they're saying, Oh, that's great, that's great,
Give me more. You know, you do that. You do
that a bit. You do give people feedback. You are
a mirror.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Rick is hyping people up a bit, but he's mostly
trying to get them to relax and be themselves in
front of his lens.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
With a person like Marsha, I would just, you know,
very sincerely be able to say how beautiful you are,
and I'm so proud to have you as a friend
all these years.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
You can see that care and reverence in the final work.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
It's beautiful. And the reason that it's beautiful is Marcia's poise.
That's the word for it is poised. You know. Poise
is balance. It's energy in repose, a person who doesn't
have to be all, you know, shaking and shivering and
doing everything, but still radiates what they are.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I looked at this photo with Judy and Marr's personality
shines through in a different way. So she's looking off,
she's not looking at the camera. Her hair is also
almost a Victorian.
Speaker 10 (44:11):
Yeah, it's giving, very like Grandam eighteen nineties updue Like
I feel like this is you would see this in
Linke Downton Abbey.
Speaker 4 (44:20):
This could easily be a statue, like when I think
of the Lincoln Monument or something like.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
I could easily see her in this pose.
Speaker 10 (44:32):
Yeah, status right, the hair pushed back, the robe, it's
very ground.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
The photo is still of its time. It's giving Shakespeare
in the Park in the eighties a bit. Marcia's sitting
on a stool, legs cross, looking off. There's a silky
fabric wrapped around her shoulders. Covering her legs are black
tights with sparkling moons. Her lips are parted. One hand
(45:00):
touches her chest. She looks like she could be in
the middle of telling a story about herself, maybe a
story that's a little bit sad. The mood is reflective
in that way, and she does look older.
Speaker 4 (45:14):
You can definitely see the age. There's still some of that,
like I want to say, wistfulness to her. You can
definitely see she's been through more things.
Speaker 9 (45:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (45:31):
Yeah, it has a sort of pensive.
Speaker 9 (45:33):
Quality to it.
Speaker 10 (45:34):
But there is the way of time.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
The photo was taken in nineteen ninety one, the year
before she passed. Marcia is in her mid forties. She
deserves to have plenty of life ahead of her still,
and yet she'd already lived through so much violence. For
a black trans woman, middle age can be a huge accomplishment.
Speaker 10 (46:00):
Obviously, the life expectancy for black trans women at the
time is so low. And so there's somebody about coming
into her matron lee power. And I say matronly, not
in an offensive way, but in a like an earth
mother way, right, you know, she's coming into her power
as an elder.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Marcia the elder, not just Marcia the transcestor.
Speaker 10 (46:19):
Often by the time we get to this point in
Marcia's life of images, I think this is just the
state of how we talk about transnists and black transnest is, like,
we get so quick to get to the death right,
we get so quick to get to that moment when
I really love the idea of living in her eldership
as someone who's been there and sharing that actively.
Speaker 4 (46:41):
Yeah, it's nice to see her older, still giving her
version of glam, still attracting attention and being willing to
fit for a portrait.
Speaker 9 (47:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (47:00):
What's really good about these photos is that it allows
Marshall to enter that sort of hollowed space of the
studio and studio subject in a way that I think,
had she lived longer, we would have had so much
of that.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Marcia had so much to be proud of and plenty
to be wistful for. It's a beautiful image of her
as an elder, as my elder. It's an era we're
going to explore next week when we dive into a
new chapter of her life. The eighties.
Speaker 9 (47:34):
Martha was really a mother. They have to mother in
my extender gay family.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
There's these really beautiful photos of her by the pool,
just like luxuriating and just resting.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
What made the black trans community so vulnerable in that.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Time stigma, stigma, prejudice. There was no real help. It
was the natural instinct. Is that you're going to help
your friends.
Speaker 5 (48:00):
I think you.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
Should be ashamed of anybody you neady have day. I
think you should stand as close to them as you can.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
That's next time on Afterlives. Thanks for listening to Afterlives.
You can find this episode in future ones on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Please leave us a rating and review to let us
know what you think. Afterlives is a production of The
(48:30):
Outspoken Network from iHeart Podcasts in partnership with School of Humans.
I'm your host and creator Raquel Willis. Dylan Hoyer is
our senior producer and scriptwriter. Our associate producer is Joey
pat Sound design and engineering by Jess Krinchich, Story editing
by Julia Furlong, fact checking by Carolyn Talmage. Score composed
(48:55):
by WISEI Murray. Our production manager is Daisy Church. Executive
producers include me, Raquel Willis, and Jess Krinchuch from The
Outspoken Podcast Network, Amelia Brock, Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and
Elsie Crowley from School of Humans and The Cats Company.
The image of Marsha in our show art is provided
(49:17):
by the Leslie Lowman Museum of Art Founder's Gifts p.
Twenty fifteen dot six nine nine dot one oh six.
A special thank you to everyone who provided archival tape,
including Jimmy Camicha's Hot Peaches Records at NYU's Fell's Library
and Special Collections. Marsha P. Johnson's nineteen seventy nine interview
(49:40):
with Stephen Watson courtesy of Artifacts. Full interview available at
www dot Artifacts dot Movie Marsha nineteen ninety two by
Michael Casino and Marsha at Tony Nunziata's by Michael Casino,
courtesy of Michael Casino. Finally, as promised, here's Michael Lanchagan
(50:03):
performing Spare Change for a Dying Queen.
Speaker 9 (50:08):
Special Change for Dying Queen Dollar. I know you don't
believe me, but that's Queen's not what we talk about.
Yes we do. We're for the liver rights shine, Yes
we are. When I first came to New York, all
dressed in my little white shirt and my little black pants,
and my mother bought me. I heard about the Stone Wall,
and I thought I'd go over and check it out,
and Lord have mercy. When I walked in, I couldn't
(50:31):
believe my eyes. There were men dancing with men, and
women dancing with women.
Speaker 13 (50:36):
And way in the back, way in the back were
my sisters, all dressed up in gola mat and weeks
for days shop.
Speaker 12 (50:45):
Now I'm hanging out of the stone Wall and I'm
talking to miss June, who's feeling kind of low and
nodding out on down.
Speaker 9 (50:51):
And she looks up at me and she says, Baby,
if them pigs come in here tonight, they better stay
off my mother fucking case.
Speaker 12 (51:03):
And she was right, because we wasn't hurting nobody, just
hanging out and doing the dude. And just as soon
as she said that, the bell don't wrung and the
whistle on blue, and then they come pushing the shovel,
just like a bunch of pigs. Now they pushing the
shoven everybody, and nobody does nothing. See in those days,
if you was gay, you didn't say you was gay.
(51:23):
Now they pushing itself in everybody, and nobody says.
Speaker 9 (51:26):
Nothing until they come to the queens. This one pig
pick miss June.
Speaker 12 (51:30):
Up, knocked her down, ripped her dress, and scratched her face. Now, dollings,
can we talk now? You know, the day got into
us queens and kind of saw the easy going types
that you can push yourself around anywhere you want. But darlings,
there are two things you cannot do to a queen.
One never rip a queen's dress. And two don't you
(51:52):
never ever ever toucheduff face.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Dolly.
Speaker 12 (51:55):
Well, missus June jumped up and starts screaming and hollering,
and I said, why don't you leave? Well, she's not
bothering nobody. He turned and looked at me and said,
shut up, you sick faggot. I have been called a
lot of things, queer, cocksucker, but they nobody got the
right to call me a piece of wood. That's right,
a piece of would. I looked it up. It said
(52:15):
right there in the website that a paget is a
piece of wood. And I ain't no piece of wood.
And I was telling that to this pig when he
came to hit me. Well, next thing, you know, miss
June picked up a chair and threw it.
Speaker 9 (52:26):
Next thing.
Speaker 12 (52:27):
You know, people started screaming and hollering, and queens was
getting their dresses ripped in their face to scratch.
Speaker 9 (52:31):
And you know what that meant. And we were in
the tombs.
Speaker 12 (52:34):
Again, those pigs piano bunting up our front, bunting up
our heads, played on bunted up.
Speaker 9 (52:40):
But that was okay, Dollar
Speaker 12 (52:41):
Because that was the beginning of gay liberation in New
York City, in the world.
After Lives. It's a production of iHeart Podcasts and the
Outspoken podcast Network in partnership with School of Humans. Just
the heads Up, the following episode discusses racism, homophobia, and transphobia.
Take care while listening.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You know, in the seventies there was also these clubs
like Twelve Wests and Flamingo and so forth. You'd see
Marsha in these environments and Peter Rabbit and what was
that place called cris Co Disco.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
This is Rick Shuoper. You've heard him throughout the series.
He's the photographer who met marsh in the village back
in the early sixties. They stayed friends throughout her life
and hung out in some pretty sleazy spots by the peers.
But Rick also ran into Marsha at the clubs, even
at places he never expect, like a rich butch leather bar.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Marcia did not think I don't belong here.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
She was truly comfortable with who She was confident enough
to smooth with all kinds of people. Rick has one
story that I absolutely love.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
This is the late eighties and I was at the
Spike Bar. There was a super leather boar and I
was standing out in front. There smoking a jay.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
That's when Marcia comes by the bar asking for spare change.
Nothing unusual. Rick gives her dollar. They talk a little.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Bit Earlier in the bar, I had seen this person,
a person of small stature who was wearing a leather
jacket with the collar turned up and whose head was
wrapped in one of those you know, those that kind
of scarf that it has a certain like check pattern.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Rick noticed this person but didn't think anything of it.
While he was standing outside with Marcia, the person.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Walked by Marsha without missing a beat, turned and said, oh, hello,
miss Madonna, and Madonna said I'm incognito. Wow, it was Madonna,
and Marcia just didn't miss it, you know I did.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, she clocked her, absolutely absolutely. It's wild to me.
The spectrum of people Marsha brushed up against. This is
just one story and a life immersed with artists and creatives,
and Marcia was one of them, a performer and artist,
an inspiration and amuse. Decades before Marcia's legacy took on
(02:43):
a life of its own as a symbol of the
LGBTQ plus movement, Marcia carved out a name for herself
in the zeitgeist I'm Rachael Willis and this is Afterlives.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
They called me a nage because it's how many points
God that I'm one of the few waits still net,
few waits still.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Net, few wats.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
I didn't make expensive every day anywhere.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Episode five, I stole the show.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I remember seeing Marsha in metallics.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
This is Rick again. Just to note that at points
you'll hear Rick refer to Marcia by he him pronouns.
Rick and Marcia had some good times on the disco
floor back in the seventies, but what really stands out
to him were her outfits.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
The dumpster diving diva, Marsha really emerged.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
This was a staple of how Marcia moved through the world.
She had a look you couldn't find anywhere else because
she wasn't buying her fits, she was creating them herself.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Those dumpsters down and Soho used to be a place
where they did a lot of manufacturing, have clothes and stuff,
and he would go in there and find all this
shit to wear and wear it, you know, make these
outfits out of it that were just beyond belief.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Other people might have been dancing in metallic fabrics, but
sometimes Marshall wore actual metal.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Obviously, there was some company that would take these sheets
of like a thin metal, like a plastic, and they
would cut big circles out of it for some reason,
and then the remnants would get just tossed. They couldn't
be used.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Somehow, Marcia turned the shiny cast off into a show stopper.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
She had made a whole outfit of these swirling metallics,
because when you twist it and wrap it, it just
becomes this I don't know, covering. I don't know how
to describe it. You know, it would just come appearing
like that on a Saturday night at one of these clubs.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Rick struggles to find the right words here, which says
a lot. There are no words, because this isn't just
a dress, Darling, It's a piece of art made out
of industrial materials. Do you think Marcia considered herself an artist?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Why so?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Marcia was so creative. I mean she was show up
an outfits that she just could your eye popping. You
could recognize that this was all dumpster diving, but like, wow,
not everybody can do that. It's your performance.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Want to see some of Marsha's legendary outfits. Check out
our Instagram at afterlives dot pod, or follow the link
in our show notes. Her old roommate Randy Wicker, has
a whole flicker account for your viewing pleasure. Marcia had
it all long, lacey dresses, feathered skirts, short shorts, and
(05:54):
fur coats. And let's take a moment for the head pieces.
One made of Christmas lights, some made up sparky party supplies,
another constructed from small tiles and feathers. One hat has
a life size bird sitting on top of it, and
of course there are many many flower crowns spanning different
(06:14):
blooms and colors of the rainbow. It took real skill
to construct all those elements and have them stay on
top of her head. In nineteen seventy nine, she was
profiled by the Village Voice. It's a whole article about
her and her place in the community. Her style, of course,
was central to the piece. While people in the streets
(06:38):
wore plaid shirts and jeans, our girl was dressed to
the nines.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
This is a crowning achievement of Marsha that Marcia was
just Marsia all the way. There was no to Marsha Johnson's.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Steve Watson wrote the article for The Voice, which was
lee paper covering New York's down town scene. He asked
Marsha about who inspired her.
Speaker 6 (07:05):
I want to know who is your personal stars?
Speaker 7 (07:10):
Of our personal stars Jackie Carrots, Chop Dot, the Arica.
Speaker 5 (07:15):
Ching is mined, What's Love.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
You might not recognize all these folks names, but they
each have an important place in the city's art world
as playwrights, actors, and so called Warhol superstars. Marsha may
have been living in the dingiest tenement you could imagine,
but she was also in the art world and on
the dance floors during New York's Golden age of nightlife.
(07:42):
This was the era of Grace Jones, Diana Ross and
Cher partying at Studio fifty four. It's Robert Maplethorpe and
David Bowie at Maxis Kansas City. It was a vibrant time.
The city was in a fiscal crisis. Rent was cheap,
and alternative culture was popping off. You didn't have to
(08:04):
be wealthy. Being interesting and creative could get you very far.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
These are all people who thoroughly believed in themselves, side
by side with being absolutely people who were subjected to
the same self doubts as every other fagot. They were
subjected to the same shaming shit, but they managed to
do their thing.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
In this era and environment, being yourself could be an
act of resistance. The Village Voice affirmed that Marsha's outfits
quote turn conventional values on their head, publicly affirming herd differentness.
While dumpster diving may have been a reality for other
street queens, that article declares her as the leader, setting
(08:52):
new trends and going after sky high energy.
Speaker 6 (08:56):
Marcia gave her visual sense very generously to other people.
Other people get the beauty of Marsha's vision just to
Marsha being there.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Tommy land Again Schmidt is an artist who came up
in the Village at the same time as Marcia. You've
heard him throughout our series today. His work is a
part of the collections at the Whitney, MoMA and the.
Speaker 6 (09:21):
Met Marcia's a genius, Marsha's an artistic genius.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
There's no doubt in Tommy's mind about Marsha's brilliance.
Speaker 6 (09:30):
When I was a little kid, I thought a genius
was someone who could spell big words, or like solve
our crazy math problem. So a Genius is anyone who
knows how to pull together who they are with a
minimum of input from the world that wants to make
them into a standardized product.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
There's that saying that if you wake up in the
morning and all you can think about is writing, then
you're a writer. And whether Marsha was sewing banners for
protests or turning a look of discarded metal, she moved
through the world making art. Being art is that.
Speaker 6 (10:07):
Mix and knowing how to get like an end table
scar from tied around her waist to make it into
a mini skirt, and how to get like a wig
that was made for a Halloween for Peter Pole and
marry white purl wig blonde hair and throw it on
her head and then be able to take that off
when she wanted to.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Marcia was the subject of a Warhol print, but that's
not what made her art. He did the portrait because
of who she was.
Speaker 6 (10:36):
Marcia was always the art. She is in the street
all the time. Marcia was a street person, and we
have to keep Marsha in that at the same time
realize Marsha's a genius.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
When Tommy characterizes Marcia as a street person, we do
well to remember which streets she was on. The village
was a queer mecca, a haven for artists at a
time when creatives could get by in a decaying New
York City. She hung out with people who admired her
dumpster diving treasures, and they adore the Marcia who stepped
(11:12):
off the streets and into the spotlight. A glimpse of
the whimsical, unrehearsed and off the charts performances as only
(11:32):
Marcia could deliver. That's when we come back, Hey, gull.
Speaker 5 (11:43):
Ladies and gentlemen, the Queen of the Isarland and the
Sage Chris.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
This is Jimmy Camechia introducing Marsha in nineteen eighty eight.
He's standing on stage at the Theater for the New
City in the East Village with a mustache, slick back hair,
and lots of eye makeup.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Jimmy has been saying all these wonderful things about me.
Speaker 5 (12:15):
You have made me a dog for the last fourteen
years in New York.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Peaches off and on between breakdown.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Marsha comes in in an auburn wig tied into pigtails,
big hoop earrings, and a shimmering gold backless dress.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
And I'd like to send your songs on you call
up my stroke pace.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
In her right hand, she carries her signature prop, a
heart shaped chocolate box that has song lyrics taped to
one side. The music cues and Marsha begins, but she
only gets through a few lines before us Again, Yeah,
(13:04):
it's obvious from this clip alone, Marshall wasn't your typical performer.
This is what's typical for Marsha somehow, though instead of
awkward silence, there's applause. They're eating it up. She stumbles
a few more times, still reading off the paper, but
by the end she's looking up hand on hip. You
(13:28):
can see it on our Instagram at Afterlives Dot pod.
And she finishes strong, despite being completely off key in
(13:49):
a land far far away from hitting the notes and
maybe closer to yelling than actual singing. Her fans call
out for an encore.
Speaker 8 (14:03):
She was flawless unstage, but not flawless in the way
you would think. Whatever it was that she did, every audience,
every time, every place adored it.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
More than thirty five years after Jimmy introduced Marsha. During
that performance, we met up with him at a library
in the village.
Speaker 8 (14:25):
My theory is that most people in the theater are
there to impress you. What does that mean? That means
I can do this?
Speaker 9 (14:33):
Watch me.
Speaker 10 (14:34):
Marsha wasn't there to do that. I don't even think
she ever thought about that.
Speaker 9 (14:38):
She was there to entertain the audience.
Speaker 8 (14:41):
Her primary concern was the audience.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Lots of people have theories about Marcia's performances. People said
she wasn't a singer, but a performer, that she was
giving the audience something they'd never seen before. Knowing your
lines as basic, messing up up it is more exciting,
they said, you never know what might happen. She brought
(15:06):
the spontaneous, unpracticed energy of the street into the theater,
and it was magic.
Speaker 9 (15:13):
She was not there to impress.
Speaker 8 (15:15):
I don't know what the hell she was there for,
but she liked it, so I would put her in
different things.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Jimmy grew up in Elizabeth, just like Marsha, but he
went to college and lived abroad for a while before
moving to the village in nineteen seventy one. When he
got there, Marcia introduced him to an underground counterculture filled
with musicians, painters, writers, people he wanted to be around.
The fact that everyday people could be a part of
(15:41):
it made the scene what it was. In nineteen seventy two,
this scene inspired Jimmy to start the Hot Peaches.
Speaker 8 (15:51):
I would say that Hot Peaches was a company whose
objective was to do gay theater.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Jimmy wrote songs, scripts, and planned tours for the group,
and even performed himself. He said, at the time it
felt like a lot of theater companies implied they were gay.
He wanted to be direct about it, to make queerness
central to what The Hot Peaches did.
Speaker 11 (16:16):
Both mess you Lynn and then oh. Then to suppress
one side would be just guess.
Speaker 8 (16:31):
We were into something called androgyny. It was very big
at the time, trying to give expression to both your
male and female thots.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
The Hot Peaches have a song about exactly this. It's
called androgyny, Jimmy says. Naturally, gender not conforming folks and
drag queens wanted in and they were welcomed.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
These queens. You're prancing around doing drag and so forth.
In that era, it's defiant.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Marcia's friend Rick Super got to witness some of the
magic of Hot Peaches.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
There was all these people who in many ways had
difficult lives because they were misfits, but not laying down,
not embracing defeat. Oh contrare. You know we're putting on
a show.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
This wasn't your typical lip sync for your life, high
fem glitter drag show.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Though they definitely had that live of being a gender
fucking I guess it's the work and job.
Speaker 6 (17:46):
Hang out.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
The Hot Peaches definitely were gender fucking and provocative and political,
all values Marsha stood for.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Well, I don't think Marsha ever wanted power. No, she
just wanted to be able to get up on the stage. Yeah,
she had a right to be up on the stage.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
A nineteen seventy eight review by The Advocate admidst the
Hot Peaches are not for everyone. For some, there are
just a lot of noise and slopping around, but the
article adds that for others, the group taps into dreams
of a gay revolution where street queens are finally seen
as the heroes.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
The cogic and industry.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
They may have been there for the revolution, but they
were still silly and scrappy. Costumes were thrifted or picked
out of the garbage, then basically stuck together with spit and.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Glue costumes that were just whipped together by people of
infinite resource, zero budget, infinite resource.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
There were bright colors and boas, sun glasses, big hats,
and wild wigs. The shows were often held at small,
independent theaters, but Rick also saw one show at a
former church. Sometimes they performed outside, in parks or in lofts,
and at times those lofts were also Jimmy's bedroom. Rick
(19:20):
says the audience was mostly gay, but there were definitely
straight people there too. At some shows, we'd wafted through
the air. During at least one performance, people laid on
mattresses and cushions instead of sitting in chairs.
Speaker 8 (19:35):
They thought, you'll never get to Broadway with this stuff,
And I'm thinking, who the hell wants to go to?
Speaker 9 (19:40):
What am I going to do there?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Jimmy says. Sometimes the hot Peaches were misunderstood. Some people
assumed the group wanted to do polished productions and serious
dramas but just couldn't pull them off. That was never
the goal, though.
Speaker 8 (19:56):
I wasn't interested in being an actor, and I wasn't
interested in as I was interested in artists.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
They were reviewed by local rags and gay papers, but
also in the pages of Variety and Time Out London.
The New York Times called one show quote funny, clever,
ever so likable, and said the bitchery is often hilarious.
Among the Hot Peacher's repertoire were queer twists on classic
(20:25):
stories like The Wonderful Wizard of Us.
Speaker 8 (20:28):
Rewrited only make Dorothy a New York girl trying to
get on welfare where she can get free.
Speaker 9 (20:36):
Money and food.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Marcia played Dorothy's companion in one of those productions that
was definitely not in Kansas Anymore. Instead of the brainless scarecrow,
she was a go go dancer on speed. In another,
Marcia was cast as the Queen of Hearts. It was
Alice in Wonderland, except this time it was about Little
Alice Finkelstein, a suburban girl who follows her cousin Bunny
(21:01):
Whitt into New York's underground.
Speaker 8 (21:04):
She got this big fairy tale gown, and because she
was Queen the Heart, she cut out paper hearts and
pinned them to the gamp.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
During Marsha's first year with the Hot Peaches, she appeared
in over thirty performances and kept on kicking.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I've been working with the Hot Peaches for about twenty
thousand year that Stafle Jimmy making.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Me a star.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Marcia talks about her time on stage in a couple interviews.
Before the Hot Peaches, she also worked with another theater group.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
I've been very.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Fortunate in my life to get all those jobs, like
working in the Hot Peaches and working with the Wonderful
People and the Angels of Light.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
The Angels of Light was a San Francisco based precursor
to the Hot Peaches, but their touring productions dazzled New Yorkers.
Celebs like the Rolling Stones, David Bowie, John Lennon, and
Yoko Ono turned turned out to see them. When Marcia
showed up, they loved her kookie style.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
I mean, I was very fortunate, you know, to be
black and gay and get as far as I've gotten
in this world. You know, it's just not too many
black transvestics.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
To get anywhere.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
In one recording, Marcia is being interviewed by friend and
fellow Hot Peach Tony Nunziata. He tells her that what
she's done is pretty extraordinary, and she reveals an even
bigger dream.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
I mean, I want to be a movie star.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
I want to be a Holly but making two hundred
and fifty thousand dollars, but taking off my something like Madonna,
one of those wonderful people, Michael Jacks and stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
She never hit the big screen in her lifetime, but
has been the subject of documentary since. Filmmaker Michael Cassino
recorded this interview with Marcia and writer Larry Mitchell. Later
he included in his twenty twelve film Paid My Mind.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
So once you're knockout number, I think this don't called
lab de balloon?
Speaker 5 (23:08):
Can you sing a blue corse?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
I have elve in dear Balloon.
Speaker 5 (23:14):
I'm gonna bload it up quite soon.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
It's gonna take me to the day.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Marcia is mostly following the tune in this interview on stage,
though it was a different story. One review of The
Hot Peaches noted that some members of the cast were
ridiculously talented, others, like Marsha were quote talented at ridiculousness.
At one point, Jimmy wondered what would happen if she
(23:44):
did sing a little less off key.
Speaker 8 (23:47):
I thought, well, let me help her get it right,
So I said to it. One day, I said, Marshall,
let's go.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Over to this saw.
Speaker 9 (23:53):
You could get this word it's not very hard.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
I'm gonna drift right through the night.
Speaker 5 (24:00):
Together, will be outa side.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
To his surprise, she got it right in no time
and she sang on stage just like she did for him.
Speaker 8 (24:11):
That was that next night she goes out and totally
screws up the story. So I said, Marcia, what happened?
She said, they like it better this way, and she
was right.
Speaker 9 (24:23):
They did. It's got up fly Me to the Moon.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
I'm sam.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Waiting for uh.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I think about Marcia as a kid, surprising her siblings
by raking in the cash with her off key Christmas carols.
Writers and critics called her a living gay archive, the
original Queen of Christopher Street, ghost, and lovable with an
inimitable style. Over the years, Marcia was on and off
(25:03):
with the Peachas. During her run as the Queen of Hearts,
she had a breakdown and ended up in Bellevue. Jimmy
worried that being in a featured role was just too
much pressure, so he'd have her pop in for just
one song, or she'd be the.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
MC Today's and Jackerman Rebelcoon You to the second annual
Tarvest Moon cabaret night. We have lined up at Flavist Baptist.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
When Marcia came on stage, she often had a cause
she was supporting or raising money for.
Speaker 8 (25:37):
Well, Marsha, how are you doing.
Speaker 9 (25:41):
Oh well, it's going fine so far.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
That's Jimmy and Marcia again in that Hot Peaches retrospective
from nineteen eighty eight, Sure.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Fifty Street in case anybody interested, from two to four.
Speaker 8 (25:55):
Tomorrow, I drank my partner gave movement this year to
help great money they gain prime.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
One time, Marcia collected ticket money for a hot Pitch
of show to benefit Star, the Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries.
At the end of the show, Jimmy asked her for
some of the cash so he and some other people
carrying props could take a cab.
Speaker 8 (26:21):
And she goes, I don't have any money, Well, where's
the money from.
Speaker 9 (26:25):
The box open? I gave it to Star. You gave
them all the money. Well, the benefit was the Star.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
The way Jimmy saw it, the profits would go to Star.
That's how benefits usually work.
Speaker 8 (26:39):
The money goes to this one and that one and
the other one, and when it comes to really you
did the benefit for they're getting a slice.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
That was Marsha.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Sometimes Marcia took tickets at the door. If someone didn't
have enough money, she would just wave them through. Not
ideal for a group that really needed the cash, But
then Jimmy noticed how someone else in line would chip
in a little extra to make up the difference. Marsha
was creating an environment where people could be generous to
(27:10):
one another, and on some level, that's what made her
a star. On top of all the magic she created
on stage. In nineteen ninety one, Marcia got a big
opportunity to have her name in lights.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
I never thought nightd it in London.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
She was invited to go on tour with The Hot
Peaches in London.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
I'm still get to get my steps? Did I still
have it? What have you been London? I still the show?
And ARIZONI again star.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
The Hot Peaches toured a lot, usually moving around different
cities and venues in Europe. This show would be thirty
days at one theater in London. It was all paid
for and the logistics were pretty simple. Jimmy thought this
was the perfect setup for Marsha. She dressed for the
part from day one, showing up to the airport in
(28:07):
an English tweed suit.
Speaker 9 (28:09):
She was ready at one point Marcia went somewhere.
Speaker 12 (28:14):
I always said it was the Queen's guarden and picked
the flowers to.
Speaker 9 (28:18):
Go into a hair.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
This is Michael Lynch, a New Yorker and lifelong performer
who also traveled to London with The Hot Peaches.
Speaker 12 (28:26):
They did an interview, she said, I think the Queen
would want me to have it dolling because she's fabulous
and I'm fabulous too.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Michael, also known by the stage persona Michelle, joined The
Hot Peaches in the late eighties and quickly bonded with Marsha,
especially as black queer folks in a scene that could
be pretty white.
Speaker 12 (28:48):
I always say it was like knowing your auntie, so
you knew she was family, You knew she was for
you immediately.
Speaker 9 (28:55):
It was a pure heart that came through.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Michael says that in London they checked out the East
Indian gay scene and explored black neighborhoods like Brixton. They
ate and partied, and Marcia took it all in.
Speaker 9 (29:10):
Marcia was Marsha? Where was she went?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
A close up of her mid song and a Ryan
Stoneheart's here a Grace the front page of Time Out London.
In another British newspaper. Marcia declared, quote, I'm not sure
London is ready for us. Michael says, it really wasn't.
Speaker 7 (29:28):
I had a pair of sparkly rigged booty short that
Warren show, and at one point Marcia came out of
the hotel where we were standing in these shorts, and
you know, those big double decker buses almost turned over
she walked in there.
Speaker 9 (29:48):
I'd say, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Every night they returned from their adventures to perform at
the Drill Hall in the West End. There's a couple
photos Michael showed us that the cast hanging around backstage
in black and white. They sit and talk, sipping glasses
of wine and pints of beer. In one picture, Marsha
looks halfway into costumes, still wearing a sweatshirt and a jacket.
(30:13):
Her hair is pushed back like she's going to put
on a wig. She's holding a coffee cup and smiling big.
You can see it on our Instagram at Afterlives dot pod.
London's Capitol gay newspaper wrote this of the Hot Peaches Tour,
twenty years in the business and New York's most outrageous
exports still defies definition. Hot Peaches is a clown show,
(30:38):
a drag act, a cabaret, a coming out party, a
spiritual experience, depending on which peach you pay greatest attention to.
Marsham brought a lot of heart to the hot peaches.
These were her friends and fellow creatives. She cared for
them and was inspired by them. It went both ways.
Speaker 12 (31:01):
I started to identify more in my female feminine side
by knowing people like Marsha.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Jimmy even wrote a couple shows inspired by Marsha. One
called Divas of Sheridan Square, takes closely after her life.
Speaker 9 (31:17):
Monday morning, woke up free. All I wanted was to
be me.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
The protagonist is a queen and Bellevue Hospital. She's wearing
a hospital gown and thinks back to Stone Wall, reflecting
on the hardships of the folks who fought and had
been forgotten. Michael shared this song from the show with us,
call Tighter.
Speaker 9 (31:40):
Smoked a joy and they got me Hi Hi, As
I could be met two girls who screamed, hey, look
at the fag brobably, Damn man, what a drag punched
a hole in my gay bag? Just cannot be me
and it's getting tighter.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
The show ends with a number that is undeniably Marsha.
It's a poem called spare change for a dying Queen,
a phrase everyone in the village associated with her outstretched hand.
Speaker 12 (32:17):
Spacer chase for dying Queen Dollar. I know you don't
believe me, but let's queens do what we talk about.
Yes we do.
Speaker 9 (32:24):
We're for the liberal rights shot.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Michael did a complete rendition three minutes long, entirely from memory.
It was incredible. We'll play it right after the credits
of this episode so you can hear it.
Speaker 12 (32:40):
I heard about the Stone Wall, and I thought I'd
go over and check it out, and Lord have mercy.
When I walked in, I couldn't believe my eyes. There
were men dancing with men, and women dancing with women.
Speaker 13 (32:52):
And way in the back, way in the back well,
my sisters.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Michael keeps the one that was the Hot Peaches alive
to this day. He did a retrospective of their songs
at Lincoln Center in twenty twenty one. He also sees
himself as a keeper of Marcia's memory.
Speaker 9 (33:13):
As Michael Michelle Lynch, I'm grateful that I have lived
a life I.
Speaker 12 (33:19):
Have known someone who not only has gone down in history,
But who has touched my life?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
The hot Peaches may have taken Marcia to London, but
after the break, Marcia goes fully mainstream.
Speaker 5 (33:34):
Honey, I walked right down Andy wall Halt's office and
walked in, and Andy wallhallt loved it.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Stay with us.
Speaker 10 (33:53):
Marcia on Bleaker Street, seated on a stoop, smoking a cigarette.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Welcome back to Afterlives. This is Judy Gara, a Socia
director of collections at the Leslie Lohman Museum of Art.
You heard her in our first episode. Judy walked us
through images of Marsha on a visit to the Queer
Art Museum in Soho. She's describing a photograph taken by
(34:19):
gun Rose in nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 10 (34:22):
With that classic smile. She's got her just her furs on,
very comfortable her leg warmers.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Gun Rose visited New York and did a lot of
street photography. One day, he just happens to pass by
Marsha downtown.
Speaker 10 (34:36):
I love the pink leg warmers. That eighties five really
gets me. With the matching Sparkley beret. Oh, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
On top of all that, she's wearing a red boa
and turquoise pants It's an explosion of color, but feels
like more of an everyday kind of look. She looks casual,
She's not wearing a full face of makeup or a wig.
She's just living her daily life and looks happy to
be in front of a camera.
Speaker 10 (35:02):
It was more than her presence of just being at
the right place at the right time. It was her energy.
It was her aura, and he captures us. I think
so so lovely here.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
This photo makes me just want to join Marsha on
the stoop. She has this glow like she's someone you'd
want to talk to. You can check out this picture
on our Instagram at afterlives dot pod. Marsha attracted people
to her like this. She may have been a dying
queen in need of spare change, but people on the
(35:32):
street would also stop and take photos with her. She
was somebody and photographers had the desire to capture her
over the years. True story. She's even on the cover
of an Earth Wind and Fire album, and that brings
us to mister silkscreen himself, Andy Warhol.
Speaker 6 (35:53):
To give people that understand Marsha's reviews, you have to
understand a few other people.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Tommy Land against Schmid again. He tells me that Warhol
didn't go around scouting the streets for people to photograph.
He met people through his A list, friends and other
folks who hung around his studio the factory.
Speaker 6 (36:12):
Because remember, this is a world of everyone Nixon, and
so you can ever talk about anyone totally isolated.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Marcia and Warhol got a clean it through this downtown network.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
He took some photos and then he made a stiff
screen and they made just sop screen into a group
of soap screens. And it's called Ladies and Gentlemen.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
When Marcia tells the story, she tells it like it's
a lesson in being yourself. She says, the very day
she sat for Warhol, she'd been turned away from a
movie audition.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
They tell me you're not what I want. I don't
like the way you look.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Marcia knew who she was, though this wasn't going to
deter her.
Speaker 5 (36:54):
Hi, I walked right down and you all Halt's office
and walked in. Andy Walhall loved it to say, it
ain't always with the other person.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Thinks it's always with you. Thanks you presented yourself in.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
The same blue dress she wore to that failed audition.
Landed our role in art history.
Speaker 5 (37:15):
Made me a porch. He's down five thousand dollars copy.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Now five thousand and nineteen seventy five is over thirty
thousand in today's dollars. Warhol's factory was doing just fine.
Speaker 10 (37:29):
He is at the height of his career, right. He
is in demand. He is making screenprints glore. He's really
made a name for himself. I mean, how many artists
under popular culture, right, So he is a household name
beyond the art world.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
By this point, Judy explains that at the time Warhol's
getting tons of commissions, one comes in from an Italian
art dealer. The art dealer even gave him the title
Ladies and Gentlemen and specifically asked for m per Arsenal
anonymous portraits of dry queens and trans women.
Speaker 10 (38:04):
So he picks fourteen models, and he takes over five
hundred polaroids of them, and then from there he creates
the series of screen prints and paintings of these fourteen models.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Marcia is one of them. Her silkscreen is a black
and white image printed over a few colored pieces of paper.
It looks kind of like a collage.
Speaker 10 (38:26):
Her hair, which is a wig with braids is seen
in a yellow paper, her face is printed on a
brownish red paper, and her lips are printed on a
bright pink that oversizes the actual shape and contour of
her lips themselves in the screen printed photo.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Can I be honest as famous as this piece is,
I don't like it at all. Obviously, it was important
to signify that Marcia was a black queen with the
brown paper on her skin. The lips are where it
goes really wrong. They're made to look oversized in a
way that looks like a menstrual trope. It's just very
(39:07):
off putting to me.
Speaker 10 (39:09):
It took until like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen until they
actually were able to identify all of the subjects of
these like thinancut records, and one is still unidentified as
at this point of the.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Fourteen This is probably the most valuable image out there
of Marcia, and it's very tokenizing. She and these other
trans and gender non conforming folks were used to satisfy
some art collector who explicitly had no interest in who
they actually were, not to mention the racism of the imagery.
(39:42):
Marsha and the other models were paid fifty bucks each
for images that made Warhol so much more money.
Speaker 6 (39:50):
That was all robbed. But that's the art world as robbers,
and the being robbed.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
As an artist. Tommy knows that this is just the
ugly under belly of the high end art world. But
Marcia was still excited to see the final piece. She
strutted to the gallery on Christopher Street where her portrait
was hanging. There's a photo of her standing in front
of it, blond wig fur coat, looking totally glamorous. But
(40:19):
the people in the gallery called her riff raff and
they threw her out on the street.
Speaker 6 (40:27):
Through even gay bars that had pictures of Marsha's Warhole
portrait in the window that wouldn't let Marsha in because
Marsha was a street person. That showed you how stupid
people can be.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
It's easy to sit here now and shake our heads
at the people who turned Marsha away. Tommy is asking
us to do something harder, though, To hold onto both
sides of Marcia takes genuine reflection. Ask yourself, how would
you respond if you saw Marshall on the street, if
(41:01):
she walked up see you in a bar where you
were drinking and asked you for spare change.
Speaker 6 (41:08):
I'll be perfectly honest today, most of these people that
talk about Marshall like they love her would have ran
away from her, have been horrified. If you can't handle
someone that comes up to you in the street and
ask you for a quarter, you could not have been
around Marsha.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
It might feel good to buy some merch with Marsha's
face on it or hold her up as an icon,
but honoring her legacy is about much more than that.
It's about reaching out to people in need. There are
people on the street today wrestling with the same systemic
issues Marsha did decades ago.
Speaker 6 (41:45):
The next time someone comes up, no matter who they are,
and asked you for some money, give it to them,
because that's what Marshall was about, one of the many things.
And when they asked for a quarter, give them a
twenty dollars bill.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Marshall would have needed the money, but it's also likely
that if she got the money, she would have shared it.
She never struggled without recognizing other people's struggles too.
Speaker 6 (42:11):
And you'll learn more by giving people twenty dollars bills
about the street than you will from me, And you'll
learn more about Marsha that way and you'll learn a lot.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
There's one more image of Marcia that I want to
leave you with. There's something really honest about the photo,
something down to earth but still special. It was taken
in the studio of a friend.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
At one point I just asked Marsha, like Marcia, I
would love to do a portrait of you.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Rick super had a photography studio in his apartment.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
I knew Marshall would come prepared.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
She showed up on time with multiple changes of clothing.
Rick remembers that the day was laid back, that Marsha
wasn't super high energy. She wasn't on until she got
in front of the camera.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Are you've seeing like the stereotype fashion shoot, like where
they're clicking away and they're saying, Oh, that's great, that's great,
Give me more. You know, you do that. You do
that a bit. You do give people feedback. You are
a mirror.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Rick is hyping people up a bit, but he's mostly
trying to get them to relax and be themselves in
front of his lens.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
With a person like Marsha, I would just, you know,
very sincerely be able to say how beautiful you are,
and I'm so proud to have you as a friend
all these years.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
You can see that care and reverence in the final work.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
It's beautiful. And the reason that it's beautiful is Marcia's poise.
That's the word for it is poised. You know. Poise
is balance. It's energy in repose, a person who doesn't
have to be all, you know, shaking and shivering and
doing everything, but still radiates what they are.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I looked at this photo with Judy and Marr's personality
shines through in a different way. So she's looking off,
she's not looking at the camera. Her hair is also
almost a Victorian.
Speaker 10 (44:11):
Yeah, it's giving, very like Grandam eighteen nineties updue Like
I feel like this is you would see this in
Linke Downton Abbey.
Speaker 4 (44:20):
This could easily be a statue, like when I think
of the Lincoln Monument or something like.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
I could easily see her in this pose.
Speaker 10 (44:32):
Yeah, status right, the hair pushed back, the robe, it's
very ground.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
The photo is still of its time. It's giving Shakespeare
in the Park in the eighties a bit. Marcia's sitting
on a stool, legs cross, looking off. There's a silky
fabric wrapped around her shoulders. Covering her legs are black
tights with sparkling moons. Her lips are parted. One hand
(45:00):
touches her chest. She looks like she could be in
the middle of telling a story about herself, maybe a
story that's a little bit sad. The mood is reflective
in that way, and she does look older.
Speaker 4 (45:14):
You can definitely see the age. There's still some of that,
like I want to say, wistfulness to her. You can
definitely see she's been through more things.
Speaker 9 (45:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (45:31):
Yeah, it has a sort of pensive.
Speaker 9 (45:33):
Quality to it.
Speaker 10 (45:34):
But there is the way of time.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
The photo was taken in nineteen ninety one, the year
before she passed. Marcia is in her mid forties. She
deserves to have plenty of life ahead of her still,
and yet she'd already lived through so much violence. For
a black trans woman, middle age can be a huge accomplishment.
Speaker 10 (46:00):
Obviously, the life expectancy for black trans women at the
time is so low. And so there's somebody about coming
into her matron lee power. And I say matronly, not
in an offensive way, but in a like an earth
mother way, right, you know, she's coming into her power
as an elder.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Marcia the elder, not just Marcia the transcestor.
Speaker 10 (46:19):
Often by the time we get to this point in
Marcia's life of images, I think this is just the
state of how we talk about transnists and black transnest is, like,
we get so quick to get to the death right,
we get so quick to get to that moment when
I really love the idea of living in her eldership
as someone who's been there and sharing that actively.
Speaker 4 (46:41):
Yeah, it's nice to see her older, still giving her
version of glam, still attracting attention and being willing to
fit for a portrait.
Speaker 9 (47:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (47:00):
What's really good about these photos is that it allows
Marshall to enter that sort of hollowed space of the
studio and studio subject in a way that I think,
had she lived longer, we would have had so much
of that.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Marcia had so much to be proud of and plenty
to be wistful for. It's a beautiful image of her
as an elder, as my elder. It's an era we're
going to explore next week when we dive into a
new chapter of her life. The eighties.
Speaker 9 (47:34):
Martha was really a mother. They have to mother in
my extender gay family.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
There's these really beautiful photos of her by the pool,
just like luxuriating and just resting.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
What made the black trans community so vulnerable in that.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Time stigma, stigma, prejudice. There was no real help. It
was the natural instinct. Is that you're going to help
your friends.
Speaker 5 (48:00):
I think you.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
Should be ashamed of anybody you neady have day. I
think you should stand as close to them as you can.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
That's next time on Afterlives. Thanks for listening to Afterlives.
You can find this episode in future ones on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Please leave us a rating and review to let us
know what you think. Afterlives is a production of The
(48:30):
Outspoken Network from iHeart Podcasts in partnership with School of Humans.
I'm your host and creator Raquel Willis. Dylan Hoyer is
our senior producer and scriptwriter. Our associate producer is Joey
pat Sound design and engineering by Jess Krinchich, Story editing
by Julia Furlong, fact checking by Carolyn Talmage. Score composed
(48:55):
by WISEI Murray. Our production manager is Daisy Church. Executive
producers include me, Raquel Willis, and Jess Krinchuch from The
Outspoken Podcast Network, Amelia Brock, Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and
Elsie Crowley from School of Humans and The Cats Company.
The image of Marsha in our show art is provided
(49:17):
by the Leslie Lowman Museum of Art Founder's Gifts p.
Twenty fifteen dot six nine nine dot one oh six.
A special thank you to everyone who provided archival tape,
including Jimmy Camicha's Hot Peaches Records at NYU's Fell's Library
and Special Collections. Marsha P. Johnson's nineteen seventy nine interview
(49:40):
with Stephen Watson courtesy of Artifacts. Full interview available at
www dot Artifacts dot Movie Marsha nineteen ninety two by
Michael Casino and Marsha at Tony Nunziata's by Michael Casino,
courtesy of Michael Casino. Finally, as promised, here's Michael Lanchagan
(50:03):
performing Spare Change for a Dying Queen.
Speaker 9 (50:08):
Special Change for Dying Queen Dollar. I know you don't
believe me, but that's Queen's not what we talk about.
Yes we do. We're for the liver rights shine, Yes
we are. When I first came to New York, all
dressed in my little white shirt and my little black pants,
and my mother bought me. I heard about the Stone Wall,
and I thought I'd go over and check it out,
and Lord have mercy. When I walked in, I couldn't
(50:31):
believe my eyes. There were men dancing with men, and
women dancing with women.
Speaker 13 (50:36):
And way in the back, way in the back were
my sisters, all dressed up in gola mat and weeks
for days shop.
Speaker 12 (50:45):
Now I'm hanging out of the stone Wall and I'm
talking to miss June, who's feeling kind of low and
nodding out on down.
Speaker 9 (50:51):
And she looks up at me and she says, Baby,
if them pigs come in here tonight, they better stay
off my mother fucking case.
Speaker 12 (51:03):
And she was right, because we wasn't hurting nobody, just
hanging out and doing the dude. And just as soon
as she said that, the bell don't wrung and the
whistle on blue, and then they come pushing the shovel,
just like a bunch of pigs. Now they pushing the
shoven everybody, and nobody does nothing. See in those days,
if you was gay, you didn't say you was gay.
(51:23):
Now they pushing itself in everybody, and nobody says.
Speaker 9 (51:26):
Nothing until they come to the queens. This one pig
pick miss June.
Speaker 12 (51:30):
Up, knocked her down, ripped her dress, and scratched her face. Now, dollings,
can we talk now? You know, the day got into
us queens and kind of saw the easy going types
that you can push yourself around anywhere you want. But darlings,
there are two things you cannot do to a queen.
One never rip a queen's dress. And two don't you
(51:52):
never ever ever toucheduff face.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Dolly.
Speaker 12 (51:55):
Well, missus June jumped up and starts screaming and hollering,
and I said, why don't you leave? Well, she's not
bothering nobody. He turned and looked at me and said,
shut up, you sick faggot. I have been called a
lot of things, queer, cocksucker, but they nobody got the
right to call me a piece of wood. That's right,
a piece of would. I looked it up. It said
(52:15):
right there in the website that a paget is a
piece of wood. And I ain't no piece of wood.
And I was telling that to this pig when he
came to hit me. Well, next thing, you know, miss
June picked up a chair and threw it.
Speaker 9 (52:26):
Next thing.
Speaker 12 (52:27):
You know, people started screaming and hollering, and queens was
getting their dresses ripped in their face to scratch.
Speaker 9 (52:31):
And you know what that meant. And we were in
the tombs.
Speaker 12 (52:34):
Again, those pigs piano bunting up our front, bunting up
our heads, played on bunted up.
Speaker 9 (52:40):
But that was okay, Dollar
Speaker 12 (52:41):
Because that was the beginning of gay liberation in New
York City, in the world.
Host
Raquel Willis
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