July 22, 2025 • 52 mins
Marsha spent the final days of her life surrounded by people who loved her. When she was struggling with an oncoming breakdown, a friend escaped with her to a cottage on the beach. Her final Pride was filled with love and appreciation as she marched down the streets with her fellow revolutionary, Sylvia Rivera. Just days later, though, Marsha’s body was found in the Hudson River. The police immediately declared it a suicide, but friends and family refused to accept that and organized for further investigation. We take you inside the efforts to find out what really happened and bring you to the beautiful and epic memorials that celebrated her life.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
After Lives is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The
Outspoken podcast Network in partnership with School of Humans. Just
the Heads Up, the following episode mentions homophobic language and violence,
and discusses racism, misogyny, transphobia, mental health, and suicide.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Take care while listening.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
And I you know that we are all we have
because we want to redom on Marsha.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
It's Sunday, July twenty sixth, nineteen ninety two, on Gimi.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Things and Praise for the life of Marcia Johnson. We
are testimony to help deeply. She has touched so many people.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
You're listening to Reverend Karen Ziegler speaking at what's now
called the Church of the Village on West thirteenth Street.
Hundreds of people are gathered for Marsha's memorial. The reverence
says she's never seen anything like it before. She starts
the ceremony with the prayer, love me God, let.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
This safety still in her spirit. Let us open our
hearts to all that we feel today.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
This church has a history of offering spiritual connection for
queer people. The reverend is a lesbian. She wears a
white jacket and pin to it is a button for Marsham,
a black and white photo with a flower crown and
her big smile.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Help us to.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Remember her, help us to know her, that we can
tell her story to kids that come after us.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
After her opening prayers, she asks everyone to stand and
sing together. Earlier that month, Marcia crossed the River Jordan.
(02:03):
She was forty six, far too young. The weeks before
and after her death, deep in our understanding of the
end of a life that was cherished by so many
and still is today. I'm Roquel Willis, and this is afterlives.
Speaker 5 (02:29):
They called me a nage because there's so many quaints.
Speaker 6 (02:32):
God that I'm one of the few quaints.
Speaker 7 (02:35):
Still that few waits, Still, that few waits.
Speaker 6 (02:39):
I didn't make the best.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Of every Day Anywhere, Episode seven. I hope nobody cries Darling.
Speaker 8 (02:56):
This rady is supposed to keep going on.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh no, Michael, Ah, you're listening into a conversation between Marcia,
her friend Tony Nunziata, and Michael Cassino, who's recording all
of this as a spring rain fell. Michael says he
filmed this a month or two before Marcia passed.
Speaker 8 (03:19):
Apparently, the goriot for the reservoirs was good for the Redsiva.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
I don't think just when it's famulous for anyone, even
for the Redsivoir.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
They're all at Tony's apartment in the village, where Marcia
hung out a lot.
Speaker 9 (03:33):
It was nice when Marcia would come by. It was
always nice.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
This is Paloma, Tony's daughter.
Speaker 9 (03:39):
She was one of the friends that would just drop
in of my dad. I think it's the best way
to explain it.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Ploma's parents separated when she was young, but she spent
a lot of evenings after school with her dad. He
was queer and performed with Marcia in the Hot Peaches.
Poloma doesn't remember exactly when she met Marcia, only that
she was young. Sometimes Marsha would babysit while her dad
ran errands. As Paloma got older, she remembers sitting at
(04:06):
the table with Marsha while Tony cooked.
Speaker 9 (04:08):
I remember him making stooth. He'd like to give her
something good to eat. He'd make a lot of really healthy, nourishing,
yummy stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
In the spring of ninety two, Michael came to Tony's
and brought his camera along with him. The recording that
day followed some of their typical routines.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
I'm telling you.
Speaker 5 (04:26):
I thought you were just gonna make some sick.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Well I picked this up at my friend Louis store.
Speaker 10 (04:31):
He made the meat up.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
Today, so oh thank you. Sure you don't want anything
to eat, Michael, Michael's got a low place in the
stomach now.
Speaker 10 (04:43):
Oh yeah, you're hunger now I love him.
Speaker 5 (04:45):
Okay, yeah, it just got room for meat.
Speaker 11 (04:47):
Love.
Speaker 5 (04:47):
You didn't have any room for your suit, you know.
Speaker 8 (04:49):
What I mean.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Paloma says when Marsha came around, she wasn't the dazzling
Marcia in the Hot Pizza spotlight. She was just a
friend chatting away.
Speaker 9 (05:07):
She talked a lot about like boyfriends and looking for
her husband. She wanted like a rich husband.
Speaker 5 (05:13):
I've lived my whole life to find my millionaire husband.
But that's my whole life's dream mind, just to find
my billionaire husband, to get my little house in the
country and raise chicken.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Another one of Marcia's dreams a simpler life.
Speaker 9 (05:36):
She sort of wanted someone to make life easier for her.
She'd talk about that a lot. She was fun and
she was really great to hang with, but there also
was a sadness, also a yearning for more comfort and
ease in her life.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
It's hard.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
You can hear some of that sadness in this conversation.
They're just chatting about the weather, but there's a real
longing there for Marsha.
Speaker 5 (06:07):
They haven't been that many sunny days though, love, But
summer's coming up. Just because summer's coming, he said, promised anyone.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
I wish it was.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
Promised billionaire promise. Oh, I want my billionaires son.
Speaker 8 (06:25):
That's only real.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
I lived for forty six years.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
We know by now that when Marcia talks about her struggles,
she often does it with a laugh, but that hurt
lies just beneath that feeling of hanging on for something
that might never come. Tony was that friend there to listen,
to feed her, offer her care, and at the end
(06:53):
of their interview, Marsha talks about how she needs rest
and relief to avoid breakdown, but to getting out of.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
Town always deadnely good to the Cape seems like a
real good idea.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Tony invites Marcia to come to Cape cod with him
and Coloma to get a break from the city.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
I would love to have you, really, Oh, I would
love to come to the cap.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
One going up with ploma on Wednesday, I think next.
Speaker 11 (07:24):
Week sometime.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And they all went.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
She didn't know it, but it would be a final
bit of sanctuary.
Speaker 9 (07:37):
It's a quiet, little, sleepy, natural part of the cape,
not much going on much, you know, dunes and tall grass.
To take a bike ride down to the beach.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Tony drove them all out. It was peaceful.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Marsha may have snuck off the Pee Town, the cape's
queer hub at some point for a little partying. Paloma
doesn't remember. Mostly it was relaxed.
Speaker 9 (08:06):
It was just making breakfast, having blueberry pancakes, sitting outside.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Watching the birds.
Speaker 9 (08:12):
Marsha made French fries one night, a lot of time
around the table.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Nobody knew it then, but Marcia would be gone before
the end of the summer. I'd like to think though,
that even if she had known, the time left in
her body was so limited, that she still would have
chosen to spend it the exact same way, because these
were beautiful days, the kind of days she deserved, with
(08:46):
people that loved her, surrounded by natural beauty and calming scenery.
Speaker 9 (08:54):
We had a very nice time up there. It was
a healthy time, fresh air. It was nice to have
Marcia nature.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
But Marcia was always looking ahead.
Speaker 9 (09:05):
I remember she wanted to look good for Pride. Our
timing was around getting her back for Pride. She wanted
to be back for that, and she wanted to look good.
She wanted to have nice skin.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
It's gonna be Gay Pride Day.
Speaker 8 (09:18):
It's weekend.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
I got a voidoustaff and I'm gonna wear it. The
Sunday at.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Hope Marcia was recorded again when she got back from
the Cape. It was right before Pride, which fell on
the last weekend in June, just days.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Before she died. Pride was a whole weekend of events.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
On Friday night, there was a candlelit visual honoring those
loss to AIDS. Saturday was a Gay Day festival, and
Sunday was the march, a grand parade really.
Speaker 5 (09:51):
As Central Park in sixtieth Street, Fifth Avenue. It's gonna
be the first year that would marching down Fifth Avenue.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Michael tagged along with Marsha to some of the festivities
to record her.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
Hi Go Pride Weekend, Hi Happy Pride, wee okay.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
All through the weekend, Marsha was doing her thing as
the community greet and the community was embracing her too.
Speaker 6 (10:23):
She's seeing like artists who know and love her, who
have taken her photograph and she just knows everyone. People
are coming up to her.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
You know, Tourmaline, Marsha's biographer. She's talking about a party
that weekend before the Pride March.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
I've watched all this footage, right, so I can see
the actual conversations that they're having and they're like, you
remember me, like we were in Puerto Rico, or do
you remember me? Like you probably wouldn't, but like we
were at the dance floor.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Was so oh John, thanks got Dave weekend?
Speaker 4 (10:57):
Oh Jock about another person that helped me?
Speaker 6 (11:02):
Like she was just beloved. It was like a flower
and just all the pollinators were coming to her.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
It was the same story.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
As Marsha made her way down to Christopher Street, she
couldn't walk far without getting swarmed by people. An AIDS
vigil she went to capture the emotion of the last
decade of her life, the sadness and the joy.
Speaker 6 (11:26):
You're watching the candles go into the water and floating
on the water as she's like saying goodbye to loved
ones and recently, maybe like two months before, she had
like a big memorial for a loved one named Coco
Chanel and she felt exhausted from this, but in this
moment she is really receiving and receptive to the care
(11:48):
and the adulation and love of the community, and really
getting energized from it. It's like she was and is
the saint of this moment.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
On the Sunday morning of the Pride March, she woke
up early to get there on time. She met up
with her dear friend Sylvia Rivera. They hadn't seen each
other as often as they'd used to during.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
The Star days.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
After Sylvia was booed off the stage in seventy three
for her now infamous y'all bet a Quiet Down speech
in Washington Square Park, she took a big step back
from the movement and was living in the suburbs. Today
though they were back together side by side, and Marcia
(12:43):
was dressed to the nines as usual.
Speaker 10 (12:46):
She was wearing like purple and gold glittery stuff and
she had like a shortwag gone. She seemed very jubilant.
I don't think she was on a float, but she
was definitely surrounded by people that were crying out for
joy seeing her.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
This is one of the people passing by who said, hello, my.
Speaker 10 (13:07):
Name is ANNONI I use sheep pronouns. I'm a singer
and I am calling from Sydney, Australia.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Anni called us while on tour with her band A
Noni and the Johnson's, literally named after Marcia. In twenty
twenty three, the band's fifth album, My Back was a
Bridge for You To Cross, was recognized as an Album
of the Year by The New Yorker. And guess what's
on the cover of that album. It's a close up
(13:38):
black and white photo of one Marsha P.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Johnson.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Annoni's work as a performance artist and musician has brought
Marsha's name to all kinds of places, her tour stop
in Sydney just being one of many. But back in
nineteen ninety two, Anoni was just a twenty year old
figuring out her own life and i identity in the village.
(14:02):
She wanted to understand more about her history too.
Speaker 10 (14:05):
I learned about Marcia actually interviewing the manager of the
Pyramid Club, Hattie Hathaway. She's a queen from the village
who described Marcia as like our great mother.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Annonie had seen Marshall plenty of times, but was finally
learning about her significance and what some considered her sainthood.
When Marsha walked by her pride, she had a new
sense of appreciation.
Speaker 10 (14:34):
And I just went up to here and I said,
you know, I just told her I loved her. Actually
is what I did. I told her I loved her,
and I told her thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Marsha didn't know.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Annie Annoni describes the way she was dressed as a
death rock queen, like she comes straight out of mad Max.
She wonders if that gave Marcia pause. If it did,
Marsha didn't show it. She greeted her warmly, as she
did anyone in her community.
Speaker 10 (15:03):
And she said she loved me too, And I kissed
her hand.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
That kiss would be a farewell. We'll be right back.
Speaker 12 (15:26):
Marsha was pulled out of the water light over the
edge here.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Marsha's body was found on July sixth, nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 12 (15:37):
West across the river to then eyeshot of where we
stand is the building where Marsha b Johnson Andy Wicker,
who lived together to whirl the way.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Marsha's roommate Randy recorded himself on a visit down to
the pier not long after Marsha was found. He'd last
seen Marsha on July second. It was laundry day and
he thought she just ducked out to avoid it. On
the third and fourth, he assumed she'd been whisked away
to Fire Island for July fourth festivities, but by July fifth,
(16:25):
he started to worry. Just before Pride weekend, he'd noticed
some symptoms of a mental health breakdown. Here's Randy talking
with another friend of Marcia's at the pier.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
No, but she was getting mental. When did you see
her laugh?
Speaker 12 (16:44):
Yeah? Well, even after day Fridday, she was acting kind
of mental because we saw her going into her states
just a little bit though, and it was getting worse.
But when we last saw on Thursday, she's so seeing Norman.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Randy tried to file a missing person's report, but was
told that wasn't an option for an adult over forty
years old. The next day, on July sixth, her body
was found.
Speaker 7 (17:09):
I was there when they pulled her up.
Speaker 12 (17:11):
Yeah, the head was right here.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Here's another person Randy met while filming at the pier
that day, and.
Speaker 7 (17:17):
The head was up and the people were down. Fire
truck's emergency police came really quick, huh, and they pulled
her out and it was very nasty because the way
they pulled her up, they just dropped us and we
were all like, oh my god, they just dropped it
right on the floor. It was like, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
It Within twenty four hours, the NYPD had already ruled
Marcia's death a suicide. The shockingly quick decision felt too
many insufficient. People started doubting the police investigation and speculated
there was more to the story.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
She was a nobody them.
Speaker 13 (17:55):
She was a black, poor transit site prostitute with a
long record of mental problems at HIV.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
The idea of suicide seemed impossible to Randy, but when
the police first called him, he thought of her deteriorating
state of mind. Randy convinced himself she had fallen into
the river accidentally trying to find her spiritual father, Neptune
or something like that.
Speaker 13 (18:27):
When I first heard, oh, I could think of at
the time. She told me she looked in the river
and saw her father at the bottom of the river.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
But as the days passed, he started to worry that
maybe something more sinister had happened. It was something he
couldn't even fathom at first.
Speaker 13 (18:47):
I mean, it was unthinkable to me that somebody with her.
Marsha B. Johnson.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Randy got concern that pointing to her mental health gave
the police an easy way to clear the case. The
NYPD's report underscores repeatedly that Marshall was mentally ill and
that she had HIV. To investigating officers, that profile on
paper might have seemed like enough of a reason for
(19:16):
someone to end their life, but they didn't know Marcia.
Speaker 8 (19:21):
When they told us, we didn't believe it.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
That's Genie, Marcia's sister. Marcia's nephew, Al couldn't believe it either.
He was less surprised to hear that Marsha had died
than he was to hear that it was ruled of suicide.
Speaker 8 (19:38):
I was more surprised that they found her in the ribbon, like,
why is she in the river? You know what's going on?
The details weren't clear, but I knew when they said
suicide it didn't sit well with me. Marsha's not the
type of take her own life like that, So I
was just more surprised by that than anything else.
Speaker 11 (19:55):
She would never kill herself.
Speaker 8 (19:57):
We knew that we fought it.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
They did fight it.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Marcia's community started organizing to put pressure on the police.
They wanted a bigger investigation, They wanted to change the
declaration of her cause of death. Randy kept thinking back
to things that he'd heard when he was down at
the pier, that Marcia was bleeding when they pulled her out,
that she had a hole in her head, so there.
Speaker 7 (20:25):
Was blood coming out of her head. The blood ran
right down here and people kept walking over it.
Speaker 12 (20:29):
How do you know she had a hole in her head.
Speaker 7 (20:30):
I could see it. I could see the hole.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It's a haunting image, but it's also not proof of violence.
The body decomposes quickly in the water. In twenty seventeen,
the documentary team behind the Death and Life of Marsha P.
Johnson had an independent medical examiner look at the autopsy report.
(20:55):
He found there was no evidence of a violent assault
before Marcia drowned, but that.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Doesn't rule out violence.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
If someone pushed Marcia or even chased her into the water,
that would still be a homicide. It's also important to
acknowledge that it is possible Marcia died by suicide. She
may not have shared with anyone what she was going through,
will never know unequivocally. Her friends and family weren't sure
(21:29):
what happened, but they also felt like the police were
clinging to the wrong details. For example, the police report
mentions that Marcia was carrying her birth certificate. There are
reports that Marcia frequently talked about crossing the River Jordan
like in the old hymns she grew up with, that
the bullet in her back was causing her pain. Marcia
(21:52):
had recently thrown out all her clothes. The police seemed
to be taking these details as evidence that Marcia preparing
for suicide. But the thing is this was just Marsha.
Her birth certificate was a form of IDs she used
to get into clubs, she often got rid of her clothes,
(22:14):
and she'd been living with the bullet in her back
and it's a residual pain for over a decade. To
the people that knew her, all of this was normal.
Suicide wasn't something she talked about even when she was
nearing a breakdown. If anything, she'd been excited for Pride
(22:35):
a couple days after. She was happy to visit with
her family and brought her sister flowers for her birthday. Paloma,
who had spent time with Marsha on her Cape Cod trip,
also shared a detail that has stuck with me.
Speaker 9 (22:51):
Marcia was very afraid of the water.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
There were times in Marcia's life when she would look
for her father in the river or talk about how
being near it was cleansing, but just before her death,
it terrified her. On the cape, they take trips to
a nearby pond, and Marcia would literally sit back and
stay as far away as she could.
Speaker 9 (23:17):
She didn't want to go anywhere near the water.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
She didn't want to put her feet in.
Speaker 9 (23:21):
She'd stay back the same At the beach, she didn't
go in at all, and talked a lot about being
afraid of it, which makes me sad for the way
she died.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
It makes me sad too, And it's just one more
thing that doesn't add up.
Speaker 9 (23:37):
I thought, there's no way that Marcia would have killed
herself by jumping into water. That's just not what she
would have done. Ever, that's not how she would have
killed herself. I don't think she would try to feel
such pain and fear.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
With so many unanswered questions and disturbing possibilities, Marcia's community
members did what they'd always done well.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
They mobilized against the powers that be.
Speaker 14 (24:03):
That was swetters to the police Commissioner. And that was
a demonstration, and that was putting up flyers. You know,
we're pasting flyers throughout the village in Chelsea.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
This is Matt Foreman. In nineteen ninety two, he was
the executive director of New York's Anti Violence Project. Today,
he still works serving the queer community as the director
of a San Francisco organization that provides free legal services
for folks living with HIV and AIDS. At the Anti
(24:34):
Violence Project, or AVP, Matt worked with his team to
provide support for queer victims of violence and to help
them and their families find some justice. And there was
so much violence at the time Marsha died.
Speaker 14 (24:50):
We were handling up to sixteen hundred cases of anti
gay Wesleyan trans violence every year.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I'm curious about what you your take is on the
community's perception of the NYPD at that time. Was their
faith or trust that they would find justice for these people.
Speaker 14 (25:10):
There was very, very little trust.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
This is the whole reason the Anti Violence Project existed
in the first place, because the queer community needed a
way and to pressure the police to work towards justice.
When Marsha was found, the organization jumped into action. They
wanted to hold the police accountable.
Speaker 14 (25:33):
I never felt that they took a step back and
really started investing in the case from the get go,
meaning let's do a serious canvas of anyone who might
have been down there in those hours, Like let's really
try to figure out who saw what, who could have
seen what, could have posted a reward.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
They didn't.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Witnesses did come forward though.
Speaker 12 (26:00):
Fourth I was on this spear here.
Speaker 15 (26:03):
He was all standing around here by four black guys,
and I.
Speaker 7 (26:05):
Was standing around here.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
This is Benny Tony Matt Foreman didn't know him, but
he's one of the multiple witnesses who saw Marsha being
harassed that night.
Speaker 15 (26:16):
He was trying to tell Marsha to be a man,
and Marshall's was just being Marsha who Marshall was okay.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Benny went out of town shortly after the fourth of July.
It wasn't until he returned to New York in September
that he found out Marsha died. His memory of that
night came rushing back.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
He shared what he knew with Randy, who recorded their conversation.
Speaker 15 (26:40):
They had taken Marsha by the arms and by the
legs and swung him around the pier.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
After peer, Benny went to find a police officer that night,
but when he mentioned someone was being harassed, the officer
didn't seem worried about it. Bennie says, in all honesty,
he wasn't too worried. He'd seen Marsha back on her
own two feet after she was thrown around, so Benny
(27:06):
went to check out the fireworks. When he walked back
to the pier about an hour later, Marsha and these
guys were nowhere to be found. Another witness told AVP
that they saw Marcia early the next morning, around four
am on July fifth. She was up on twenty second Street,
but headed to the river. They said she was terrified
(27:30):
and felt like she was being followed. That was the
last time anyone on record saw Marcia. AVP says the
police definitely knew about that witness, and Benny Tony also
told the police his story.
Speaker 15 (27:48):
I see the food guys all the time down here
on the pier. They beat the hell all the white guys.
You can take the old white guy's money. Oh he didn't,
black guy. They was abouty thinh week.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Benny says they even robbed him once, but he didn't
feel like the NYPD really listened to what he had
to say.
Speaker 13 (28:04):
The first thing the police said to him, how much
did Randy Wicker pay you to come in here and
tell us the story? They wouldn't believe what Benny Toney
had told them, and they couldn't care less.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
By the fall of ninety two, Randy had jumped into
action to get some justice for Marcia. This made him
well known but not well liked by the sixth Precinct.
Speaker 5 (28:28):
Everyone, we have four of these at the shop show,
I should give him a whole stack.
Speaker 12 (28:31):
Give him a whole stacking.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Randy set up tables to raise awareness and put up flyers.
The front window of his store in the village became
part trine, part Justice for Marcia headquarters.
Speaker 12 (28:44):
You know what, if you'll come around the corner of
the Lightning Shop, I'll give you a packet of information
to give you articles about her death and about the
lousy police investigation.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
In Randy's shop window there were photographs and a poster
that said star and in the center of his display,
surrounded by antique figurines and light fixtures, was a giant
sign that read goodbye Marcia, we love you. The NYPD
continued its investigation. They interviewed over a dozen people and
(29:17):
wrote a report that was over thirty pages long, but
they weren't budging on the cause of death. Community members
made up their minds about what happened to Marsha.
Speaker 14 (29:29):
I believe that Marsha was either chased and was forced
into the river, or she was pushed into the river.
I'm convinced of that. I don't know who did it,
but that.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
I know happened.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
There are a lot of people who believe the same thing,
including Marcia's sister.
Speaker 6 (29:49):
I believe somebody killed her.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
And why do you feel that way.
Speaker 6 (29:53):
I just think it because one time she was saying
about how she had got shot, but she said, I'm
just keep right on going. We have be myself.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
It's true that Marcia faced so much violence in her
life just for being herself. On some level, whether or
not she was killed, she was still a victim. When
we went to visit Randy, he was wearing a shirt
in honor of her.
Speaker 13 (30:20):
I say, here, Marsha b Johnson's randgender victim of hate.
She was a victim of hate. That doesn't mean it's
gun being murdered. I think quite after way she could
have been.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Randy says he's divided about whether Marsha was killed or
whether she fell into the water because she was having
a breakdown. But I think there's something to this idea
that she was a victim either way. A victim of
a violent and transphobic and racist world, a victim of
law enforcement who didn't care enough to intervene when she
(30:56):
was being harassed, a victim of our healthcare system which
was never able to.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Offer her all the care she truly deserved.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
A victim of the government's neglect for the AIDS crisis.
Speaker 5 (31:10):
I have HIV for about two years. I mean, I'm
always dying, it's something or.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Other, always dying of something.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Marcia endured so much, but there was a limit to
what she could survive.
Speaker 6 (31:30):
Whether she went in the water because she wasn't receiving
the care that she needed, or whether she went in
the water because she was being chased, or whether she
went in the water because someone pushed her. It is
really clear that structural and interpersonal violence shaped that moment.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Tourmaline sees many factors in Marcia's death. She also points
out that Marcia wasn't alone in suffering from these systems.
This kind of violence was affecting so many queer entrance
people of color.
Speaker 6 (32:05):
We want to make sure we're not erasing the day
to day forms of violence that Marsha was navigating, that
we are not erasing the government neglect of our communities.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Tourmaline doesn't adopt one theory of Marcia's death and her biography.
She holds space for varying truths, and all of those
parts felt true and honest. But if that's the case,
what does justice really look like. In December nineteen ninety two,
(32:40):
five months after Marcia's death, her supporters had not given
up on her case. They organized the march to the precinct.
They kept talking to the press, they kept pushing. Finally,
the police sat down for a community meeting. Marsha's family
members were there, Randy was there, So was the Anti
(33:04):
Violence Project. Even a city council member made his voice heard.
Ten days after the meeting, the cause of the death
was officially changed. It was no longer considered a suicide. Instead,
it would be documented as a drowning of an undetermined nature.
Speaker 14 (33:27):
That was a big victory. It wasn't like Oh, we
found the perpetrators. But it was a victory.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
It's not an easy feat to get the NYPD to
change their mind, to admit they were wrong. After months
of work, this felt like a win, but it wasn't
a triumph. So much had been lost. Marsha had been lost.
Her community did away with a painful police narrative, but
(33:57):
that didn't offer real closure, not that then in the nineties,
and not for decades to come. The case was reopened
in twenty twelve. In twenty seventeen, a documentary team did
its own independent investigation, but Marcia's cause of death remains
(34:17):
unsolved to this day.
Speaker 8 (34:20):
Everyone wants to know what happened to the love You
know what I mean. Everyone wants to close you. She
always wants some kind of closure, put it to rest.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Marcia's death is still a source of pain, not only
for her loved ones and community, but even for us
now looking at her life in twenty twenty five. But
we can take solace that she was laid to rest
with so much love, and that Marsha's memory transcended the
violent unknowns of her death.
Speaker 12 (34:52):
I'm sure marsh be more touched by this than the
fanciest mass of Saint Patrick's.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Stick with Thus.
Speaker 4 (35:03):
I brought candles and glitter and loose change to sprinkle.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
We're back with Afterlives. This is Marcia's friend, Augusto Machado.
Back in July nineteen ninety two. In the hours after
Marcia's body was found, the news about her spread quickly
in the village. When it reached Augusto, he knew he
had to go down to the piers, and he knew
(35:30):
exactly what to bring with him.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
So I made a big, humongous circle of glitter and
then loose change of pennies Nicholstein's and quarters because she
always asked for spare change, and I thought, symbolically, well,
that's part of the journey, and to make her feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Augusto wasn't alone. Many people were moved to do the
same thing. People gathered, cried and shared memories by the peer.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
And it grew into a monument down there. And the
acknowledgment was really wonderful that people who really weren't friends
acknowledged that she made her mark an impression on all
these intergenerational people in the village just by living her life.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
What came together on the pier has been called the
People's memorial. Glass bottles formed a misshapen oval, and within
its borders, leaves covered the concrete. They marked the exact
spot Marsha's body had been laid down. You can see
(36:42):
it on our Instagram at afterlives dot pod. Marsha's roommate Randy,
brought his video camera to check it out, and he
was really moved by what he saw. You can hear
his voice break as he leaves. His own contribution came.
Speaker 12 (37:00):
Earlier, and I thought this was so nice that I
thought it deserves some flowers.
Speaker 14 (37:04):
So I'm gonna be the first one that put.
Speaker 12 (37:07):
Flowers gone from Marcia.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Over the days, more flowers, plants, candles, and photos accumulated.
Randy talked to some of the people who helped set
it all up.
Speaker 7 (37:23):
So the next morning when I came out, that's to
blocks and I put them around, and I put.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
The crush in and put a Randy started by chatting
with just one person on the pier, but others kept
coming over to share what they loved about Marcia, her
great sense of humor, how fabulous she was.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Marsha was so full of life, right.
Speaker 5 (37:44):
Marcia used to dance and dance, and she would never
leave the dance.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Cross would just how she helped people.
Speaker 5 (37:51):
Still a lot of good things.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
One person tells Randy to pan out to show how
many people Marcia was still bringing together Black people, white people,
Puerto Ricans. They say they didn't want to lose the
sense of community.
Speaker 7 (38:08):
And I hope it's not another thing like this to
bring us together again.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
A lot of people are going to miss so that's
for sure.
Speaker 12 (38:14):
You've given Marsha a wonderful, wonderful memorial here, you really have.
I'm sure mars should be more touched by this than
the fanciest mass of Saint Patrick's.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
The people's memorial was immediate and profound, and it's just
one of many expressions of grief and adoration for Marcia.
We're going to look at the many ways she was honored,
big and small. There really were some amazing celebrations for her,
but not everybody knew about them. The street queens may
(38:49):
have gathered to honor Marsha, but the bustle of the village,
it didn't stop Broadway, didn't demon's lights. She was a
legend while she was alive, but in a certain circle,
she wasn't the International Icon. She is today. She was
one death in a time when there were so many deaths.
Speaker 11 (39:14):
I lived in the West Village. All my friends lived
in the West Village. They're all dead all.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Jimmy Comitia founded the Hot Peaches. When I asked him
how he felt after Marcia died, he struggled to answer.
Speaker 11 (39:30):
They're looking for something to be there when there isn't
something there. I mean, you get to a point where,
I mean, what does it matter? After John, Mary, Angelou,
Jean and Jack all died that Mary dies.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Jimmy says this, but he tells me that when he
walks around his neighborhood he thinks of where they all
used to live. He might struggle to put into words
how he felt about Marcia's death. Yes, but he showed
up to our interview wearing a T shirt with her
face on it and with a watch on his wrist
that she bought him over thirty years before we were
(40:11):
in London.
Speaker 11 (40:12):
She went out and bought this watch that she gave
it to me as a thank you, I guess, and
no one had ever done that.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Jimmy said he didn't even really want to do this interview,
but Marsham would have told him to just sit down
and help us out. It took some convincing, but he did,
and he told us so many stories of Marsha's generosity
in his own way. I see that he carries her memory.
Speaker 16 (40:43):
That's why it was so important for me that night
when we performed and Jimmy said, sing tighter for Marsha,
we did.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Michael Lynch tears up remembering the night he found out
about Marcia's passing. He was on tour with the Hot
Peaches in Hamburg at the time. He spent the day
wandering around with tears in his eyes, raising eyebrows among
locals and other tourists.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
That night, he knew what he needed to do.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
He put on a dress that Marcia had sent him
off with right before they left for the tour. It
was powder blue with ruffles all over and sparkles too.
When the light hit it shimmered.
Speaker 16 (41:32):
And I don't think I ever want to dress again.
That was such an emotional night because we were waiting
to go on and we didn't get on till about
two o'clock that morning, and Hamburg was a place that
when you came out of the theater at like what
four in the morning, it was like daylight, so the
sun was shining when we came out of the theater
(41:54):
that night.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
He left it all on the stage for Marcia.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
I say, it's giddy Tyler.
Speaker 16 (42:02):
Every day anyway is nothing giddy light up in any
way Wayyay, just cannot be meeting, just cannot.
Speaker 8 (42:16):
Be for ree.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
From overseas to the streets of New York, people were
finding ways to express what Marcia made them feel deep
in their soul. Somehow, in a world that didn't accept her,
Marcia found so many places she belonged. Her absence was
felt in each of them, on the streets, on the stage,
(42:45):
of course, within her family, her siblings organized a service
in her hometown of Elizabeth. Randy and a few friends
were there too. A couple weeks after that, the biggest
memorial of all was held and Marsha's beloved Greenwich village.
Speaker 8 (43:03):
This was the most awesome spectacle I've ever seen in
my life.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Her nephew Al remembers it all so vividly.
Speaker 8 (43:13):
We go to this church and this church is packed
to the gills, packed, and there's a line of people
outside and around the corner, and I'm like, what's going
on here? What is this a dignitary diet? What's going on?
This is when I knew Marsha P. Johnson was somebody
for real.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
She was an icon.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Al knew all her stories from over the years were true.
She had lived a life bigger than he could fully imagine.
Speaker 8 (43:41):
It just boggled my mind. I'm like, what is going on?
Everybody got a story? Oh your aunt, your aunt, your aunt,
Marsha Marshall Wasshington.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
This is the service you heard at the beginning of
the episode. The church was packed with people who knew
Marsha or had been witnessed to her magic, all paying tribute.
There were runaway teenagers and the executive editor of the
Village Voice. There were stonewall veterans and stargirlies. There was
(44:19):
her chosen family and her family of origin.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
After the whole church.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Saying Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, a queue of people stood
up to speak. The ideal was to go in chronological order,
starting with stories from Marsha's childhood and spanning to speeches
by friends she'd met throughout her life. That way, everyone
experienced a full snapshot of who Marsha was. A couple
(44:51):
of Marcia's siblings started it off, including her brother Robert.
Many of the memorial goers didn't know Marsha's family, but
their stories of Marcia's generosity were recognizable to everyone there,
like how she'd give away clothes that weren't really hers.
Speaker 9 (45:12):
Was coming from my house, Marco give us on screen.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I know some of the tape is pretty hard to hear.
It was recorded on an old camera in a big space,
but person after person stood up in front of the crowd.
One friend acknowledged her role at the Stonewall riots and
said her death marked the end of an era.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Another sums up her impact.
Speaker 6 (45:42):
She was history, she was all insperience.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Her old friend and fellow star, Sylvia Rivera, was there too,
fiery as ever, hurting so much as the injustice of
this loss.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
She's been around her, going down and around.
Speaker 8 (46:05):
Or she hadn't over home to go.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
But she says, even though they've lost her in another way,
in a spiritual sense, Oh, they'll be getting Marsha back.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
Because this is a beautiful show turnout and she's gonna
be stot crowd.
Speaker 15 (46:21):
My god, a neighbor keep her.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
At one point, someone from the mayor's office came to
read a letter about this longtime activist who brought so
much to the streets of New York.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
She led the spirit to live and tonight, to survive
the neighbor.
Speaker 8 (46:50):
A true citizen of the city. She would be a
sincerely dating fantasy.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
After people had their saying, the group walked down to
the pier like a big parade.
Speaker 8 (47:05):
Now we go out to church and we're going to march.
That's what're marching, is this procession. And I mean you
look back and it's just people and it's filling the
whole street. So now as we're marching, the cops are
out there to come up stop and they're like, what's
going on? What's going on? And to whoever telling Marsha
he talks to cop is like, who wait a minute,
wait a minute. They stopped right all the traffic. They
(47:27):
stopped all the traffic.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Hard as it is to believe, I've heard that story
from multiple people.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
The NYPD stop the traffic from Marsha P.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Johnson.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
When the contingent made their way to the river, they
released her ashes into the water.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
They laughed and cried.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
And hugged and said goodbye. It's exactly what Marcia would
have wanted.
Speaker 6 (48:02):
Time and I die.
Speaker 5 (48:03):
I hope nobody cries. Don I hope they thing and
dance to have a great big party. And I'm just
home and I die and I get cremated. My ashes
found the Hudson mit with all of that to those girls.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Marcia said it herself in the interview with her friend Tony.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Weeks before she passed.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
She never saw her life as limited to her body,
and this body needed a break.
Speaker 5 (48:31):
Cause, don I'll just be starting to live my life
over again. This old body had just had worn out
dog and a new one and just be on its way.
Here you get to the next disc gallentime. I mean,
at least that's the way I feel.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Marcia's does, and the uncertainty around it is so hard
to sit with to accept it wasn't fair. But Marshall
didn't fear death.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
She felt fulfilled by.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Her life, and she trusted that her spirituality would carry
her onwards.
Speaker 5 (49:18):
No, I wrote this cute little song It's told when
I die. When I die, please don't cry, because I'm
going to be with my Lord and thank him for
all the days and nights he had watched over me,
hurt all my prayers and answered them. Dance party, eat,
(49:40):
drink and be happy and marry. Hope all your hopes
and dreams come true for you, like most of mine.
Thank you Lord for all the blessings and love you've
always given me.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Next time on After Life, Marcia has never been more
alive than right now.
Speaker 6 (50:04):
Every day, every moment, she's getting bigger.
Speaker 13 (50:07):
Let's say I went to heaven and man into Marcia.
I'd say, Marsha, you became very famous.
Speaker 5 (50:12):
That is Marcia's legacy is giving black trans kids the
freedom to exist.
Speaker 13 (50:19):
Grab your transistor's hand, grab your butcher's hand, grab all
the hands you can grab and hold tight. The tailor
legged fucking is exactly the choos.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
Thank you so much for listening to Afterlives. You can
find this episode in future ones on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please leave
us the rating and review to let us know what
you think. Afterlives is a production of The Outspoken Network
from iHeart Podcasts in partnership with School of Humans. I'm
(50:58):
your host and creator, Rock Willis. Dylan Hoyer is our
senior producer and scriptwriter. Our associate producer is Joey pat
Sound design and engineering by Jess Crinchich, Story editing by
Julia Urlaan, fact checking by Carolyn Talmage. Score composed by
(51:19):
Wazi Muring. Our production manager is Daisy Church. Executive producers
include Me, Raquel Willis and Jess Crinchich from The Outspoken
Podcast Network, Amelia Brock, Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Elsie
Crowley from School of.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Humans and The Cavs Company.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
The image of Marsha and our show art is provided
by the Leslie Lohman Museum of Art Founder's gift p.
Fifteen dot six nine nine dot one oh six. A
special thank you to everyone who provided archival tape, including
Marsha nineteen ninety two by Michael Cassine and Marcia at
(52:01):
Tony Nunziatis by Michael Casino courtesy of Michael Casino, the
Randy Wicker and Marsha P. Johnson papers at the LGBT
Community Center National History Archive, and Bob Kohler Papers, Box
five Videotape eleven the LGBT Community Center National History Archive,
After Lives is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The
Outspoken podcast Network in partnership with School of Humans. Just
the Heads Up, the following episode mentions homophobic language and violence,
and discusses racism, misogyny, transphobia, mental health, and suicide.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Take care while listening.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
And I you know that we are all we have
because we want to redom on Marsha.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
It's Sunday, July twenty sixth, nineteen ninety two, on Gimi.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Things and Praise for the life of Marcia Johnson. We
are testimony to help deeply. She has touched so many people.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
You're listening to Reverend Karen Ziegler speaking at what's now
called the Church of the Village on West thirteenth Street.
Hundreds of people are gathered for Marsha's memorial. The reverence
says she's never seen anything like it before. She starts
the ceremony with the prayer, love me God, let.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
This safety still in her spirit. Let us open our
hearts to all that we feel today.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
This church has a history of offering spiritual connection for
queer people. The reverend is a lesbian. She wears a
white jacket and pin to it is a button for Marsham,
a black and white photo with a flower crown and
her big smile.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Help us to.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Remember her, help us to know her, that we can
tell her story to kids that come after us.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
After her opening prayers, she asks everyone to stand and
sing together. Earlier that month, Marcia crossed the River Jordan.
(02:03):
She was forty six, far too young. The weeks before
and after her death, deep in our understanding of the
end of a life that was cherished by so many
and still is today. I'm Roquel Willis, and this is afterlives.
Speaker 5 (02:29):
They called me a nage because there's so many quaints.
Speaker 6 (02:32):
God that I'm one of the few quaints.
Speaker 7 (02:35):
Still that few waits, Still, that few waits.
Speaker 6 (02:39):
I didn't make the best.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Of every Day Anywhere, Episode seven. I hope nobody cries Darling.
Speaker 8 (02:56):
This rady is supposed to keep going on.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh no, Michael, Ah, you're listening into a conversation between Marcia,
her friend Tony Nunziata, and Michael Cassino, who's recording all
of this as a spring rain fell. Michael says he
filmed this a month or two before Marcia passed.
Speaker 8 (03:19):
Apparently, the goriot for the reservoirs was good for the Redsiva.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
I don't think just when it's famulous for anyone, even
for the Redsivoir.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
They're all at Tony's apartment in the village, where Marcia
hung out a lot.
Speaker 9 (03:33):
It was nice when Marcia would come by. It was
always nice.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
This is Paloma, Tony's daughter.
Speaker 9 (03:39):
She was one of the friends that would just drop
in of my dad. I think it's the best way
to explain it.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Ploma's parents separated when she was young, but she spent
a lot of evenings after school with her dad. He
was queer and performed with Marcia in the Hot Peaches.
Poloma doesn't remember exactly when she met Marcia, only that
she was young. Sometimes Marsha would babysit while her dad
ran errands. As Paloma got older, she remembers sitting at
(04:06):
the table with Marsha while Tony cooked.
Speaker 9 (04:08):
I remember him making stooth. He'd like to give her
something good to eat. He'd make a lot of really healthy, nourishing,
yummy stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
In the spring of ninety two, Michael came to Tony's
and brought his camera along with him. The recording that
day followed some of their typical routines.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
I'm telling you.
Speaker 5 (04:26):
I thought you were just gonna make some sick.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Well I picked this up at my friend Louis store.
Speaker 10 (04:31):
He made the meat up.
Speaker 5 (04:32):
Today, so oh thank you. Sure you don't want anything
to eat, Michael, Michael's got a low place in the
stomach now.
Speaker 10 (04:43):
Oh yeah, you're hunger now I love him.
Speaker 5 (04:45):
Okay, yeah, it just got room for meat.
Speaker 11 (04:47):
Love.
Speaker 5 (04:47):
You didn't have any room for your suit, you know.
Speaker 8 (04:49):
What I mean.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Paloma says when Marsha came around, she wasn't the dazzling
Marcia in the Hot Pizza spotlight. She was just a
friend chatting away.
Speaker 9 (05:07):
She talked a lot about like boyfriends and looking for
her husband. She wanted like a rich husband.
Speaker 5 (05:13):
I've lived my whole life to find my millionaire husband.
But that's my whole life's dream mind, just to find
my billionaire husband, to get my little house in the
country and raise chicken.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Another one of Marcia's dreams a simpler life.
Speaker 9 (05:36):
She sort of wanted someone to make life easier for her.
She'd talk about that a lot. She was fun and
she was really great to hang with, but there also
was a sadness, also a yearning for more comfort and
ease in her life.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
It's hard.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
You can hear some of that sadness in this conversation.
They're just chatting about the weather, but there's a real
longing there for Marsha.
Speaker 5 (06:07):
They haven't been that many sunny days though, love, But
summer's coming up. Just because summer's coming, he said, promised anyone.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
I wish it was.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
Promised billionaire promise. Oh, I want my billionaires son.
Speaker 8 (06:25):
That's only real.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
I lived for forty six years.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
We know by now that when Marcia talks about her struggles,
she often does it with a laugh, but that hurt
lies just beneath that feeling of hanging on for something
that might never come. Tony was that friend there to listen,
to feed her, offer her care, and at the end
(06:53):
of their interview, Marsha talks about how she needs rest
and relief to avoid breakdown, but to getting out of.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
Town always deadnely good to the Cape seems like a
real good idea.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Tony invites Marcia to come to Cape cod with him
and Coloma to get a break from the city.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
I would love to have you, really, Oh, I would
love to come to the cap.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
One going up with ploma on Wednesday, I think next.
Speaker 11 (07:24):
Week sometime.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And they all went.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
She didn't know it, but it would be a final
bit of sanctuary.
Speaker 9 (07:37):
It's a quiet, little, sleepy, natural part of the cape,
not much going on much, you know, dunes and tall grass.
To take a bike ride down to the beach.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Tony drove them all out. It was peaceful.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Marsha may have snuck off the Pee Town, the cape's
queer hub at some point for a little partying. Paloma
doesn't remember. Mostly it was relaxed.
Speaker 9 (08:06):
It was just making breakfast, having blueberry pancakes, sitting outside.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Watching the birds.
Speaker 9 (08:12):
Marsha made French fries one night, a lot of time
around the table.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Nobody knew it then, but Marcia would be gone before
the end of the summer. I'd like to think though,
that even if she had known, the time left in
her body was so limited, that she still would have
chosen to spend it the exact same way, because these
were beautiful days, the kind of days she deserved, with
(08:46):
people that loved her, surrounded by natural beauty and calming scenery.
Speaker 9 (08:54):
We had a very nice time up there. It was
a healthy time, fresh air. It was nice to have
Marcia nature.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
But Marcia was always looking ahead.
Speaker 9 (09:05):
I remember she wanted to look good for Pride. Our
timing was around getting her back for Pride. She wanted
to be back for that, and she wanted to look good.
She wanted to have nice skin.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
It's gonna be Gay Pride Day.
Speaker 8 (09:18):
It's weekend.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
I got a voidoustaff and I'm gonna wear it. The
Sunday at.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Hope Marcia was recorded again when she got back from
the Cape. It was right before Pride, which fell on
the last weekend in June, just days.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Before she died. Pride was a whole weekend of events.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
On Friday night, there was a candlelit visual honoring those
loss to AIDS. Saturday was a Gay Day festival, and
Sunday was the march, a grand parade really.
Speaker 5 (09:51):
As Central Park in sixtieth Street, Fifth Avenue. It's gonna
be the first year that would marching down Fifth Avenue.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Michael tagged along with Marsha to some of the festivities
to record her.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
Hi Go Pride Weekend, Hi Happy Pride, wee okay.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
All through the weekend, Marsha was doing her thing as
the community greet and the community was embracing her too.
Speaker 6 (10:23):
She's seeing like artists who know and love her, who
have taken her photograph and she just knows everyone. People
are coming up to her.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
You know, Tourmaline, Marsha's biographer. She's talking about a party
that weekend before the Pride March.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
I've watched all this footage, right, so I can see
the actual conversations that they're having and they're like, you
remember me, like we were in Puerto Rico, or do
you remember me? Like you probably wouldn't, but like we
were at the dance floor.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Was so oh John, thanks got Dave weekend?
Speaker 4 (10:57):
Oh Jock about another person that helped me?
Speaker 6 (11:02):
Like she was just beloved. It was like a flower
and just all the pollinators were coming to her.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
It was the same story.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
As Marsha made her way down to Christopher Street, she
couldn't walk far without getting swarmed by people. An AIDS
vigil she went to capture the emotion of the last
decade of her life, the sadness and the joy.
Speaker 6 (11:26):
You're watching the candles go into the water and floating
on the water as she's like saying goodbye to loved
ones and recently, maybe like two months before, she had
like a big memorial for a loved one named Coco
Chanel and she felt exhausted from this, but in this
moment she is really receiving and receptive to the care
(11:48):
and the adulation and love of the community, and really
getting energized from it. It's like she was and is
the saint of this moment.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
On the Sunday morning of the Pride March, she woke
up early to get there on time. She met up
with her dear friend Sylvia Rivera. They hadn't seen each
other as often as they'd used to during.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
The Star days.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
After Sylvia was booed off the stage in seventy three
for her now infamous y'all bet a Quiet Down speech
in Washington Square Park, she took a big step back
from the movement and was living in the suburbs. Today
though they were back together side by side, and Marcia
(12:43):
was dressed to the nines as usual.
Speaker 10 (12:46):
She was wearing like purple and gold glittery stuff and
she had like a shortwag gone. She seemed very jubilant.
I don't think she was on a float, but she
was definitely surrounded by people that were crying out for
joy seeing her.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
This is one of the people passing by who said, hello, my.
Speaker 10 (13:07):
Name is ANNONI I use sheep pronouns. I'm a singer
and I am calling from Sydney, Australia.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Anni called us while on tour with her band A
Noni and the Johnson's, literally named after Marcia. In twenty
twenty three, the band's fifth album, My Back was a
Bridge for You To Cross, was recognized as an Album
of the Year by The New Yorker. And guess what's
on the cover of that album. It's a close up
(13:38):
black and white photo of one Marsha P.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Johnson.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Annoni's work as a performance artist and musician has brought
Marsha's name to all kinds of places, her tour stop
in Sydney just being one of many. But back in
nineteen ninety two, Anoni was just a twenty year old
figuring out her own life and i identity in the village.
(14:02):
She wanted to understand more about her history too.
Speaker 10 (14:05):
I learned about Marcia actually interviewing the manager of the
Pyramid Club, Hattie Hathaway. She's a queen from the village
who described Marcia as like our great mother.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Annonie had seen Marshall plenty of times, but was finally
learning about her significance and what some considered her sainthood.
When Marsha walked by her pride, she had a new
sense of appreciation.
Speaker 10 (14:34):
And I just went up to here and I said,
you know, I just told her I loved her. Actually
is what I did. I told her I loved her,
and I told her thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Marsha didn't know.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Annie Annoni describes the way she was dressed as a
death rock queen, like she comes straight out of mad Max.
She wonders if that gave Marcia pause. If it did,
Marsha didn't show it. She greeted her warmly, as she
did anyone in her community.
Speaker 10 (15:03):
And she said she loved me too, And I kissed
her hand.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
That kiss would be a farewell. We'll be right back.
Speaker 12 (15:26):
Marsha was pulled out of the water light over the
edge here.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Marsha's body was found on July sixth, nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 12 (15:37):
West across the river to then eyeshot of where we
stand is the building where Marsha b Johnson Andy Wicker,
who lived together to whirl the way.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Marsha's roommate Randy recorded himself on a visit down to
the pier not long after Marsha was found. He'd last
seen Marsha on July second. It was laundry day and
he thought she just ducked out to avoid it. On
the third and fourth, he assumed she'd been whisked away
to Fire Island for July fourth festivities, but by July fifth,
(16:25):
he started to worry. Just before Pride weekend, he'd noticed
some symptoms of a mental health breakdown. Here's Randy talking
with another friend of Marcia's at the pier.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
No, but she was getting mental. When did you see
her laugh?
Speaker 12 (16:44):
Yeah? Well, even after day Fridday, she was acting kind
of mental because we saw her going into her states
just a little bit though, and it was getting worse.
But when we last saw on Thursday, she's so seeing Norman.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Randy tried to file a missing person's report, but was
told that wasn't an option for an adult over forty
years old. The next day, on July sixth, her body
was found.
Speaker 7 (17:09):
I was there when they pulled her up.
Speaker 12 (17:11):
Yeah, the head was right here.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Here's another person Randy met while filming at the pier
that day, and.
Speaker 7 (17:17):
The head was up and the people were down. Fire
truck's emergency police came really quick, huh, and they pulled
her out and it was very nasty because the way
they pulled her up, they just dropped us and we
were all like, oh my god, they just dropped it
right on the floor. It was like, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
It Within twenty four hours, the NYPD had already ruled
Marcia's death a suicide. The shockingly quick decision felt too
many insufficient. People started doubting the police investigation and speculated
there was more to the story.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
She was a nobody them.
Speaker 13 (17:55):
She was a black, poor transit site prostitute with a
long record of mental problems at HIV.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
The idea of suicide seemed impossible to Randy, but when
the police first called him, he thought of her deteriorating
state of mind. Randy convinced himself she had fallen into
the river accidentally trying to find her spiritual father, Neptune
or something like that.
Speaker 13 (18:27):
When I first heard, oh, I could think of at
the time. She told me she looked in the river
and saw her father at the bottom of the river.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
But as the days passed, he started to worry that
maybe something more sinister had happened. It was something he
couldn't even fathom at first.
Speaker 13 (18:47):
I mean, it was unthinkable to me that somebody with her.
Marsha B. Johnson.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Randy got concern that pointing to her mental health gave
the police an easy way to clear the case. The
NYPD's report underscores repeatedly that Marshall was mentally ill and
that she had HIV. To investigating officers, that profile on
paper might have seemed like enough of a reason for
(19:16):
someone to end their life, but they didn't know Marcia.
Speaker 8 (19:21):
When they told us, we didn't believe it.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
That's Genie, Marcia's sister. Marcia's nephew, Al couldn't believe it either.
He was less surprised to hear that Marsha had died
than he was to hear that it was ruled of suicide.
Speaker 8 (19:38):
I was more surprised that they found her in the ribbon, like,
why is she in the river? You know what's going on?
The details weren't clear, but I knew when they said
suicide it didn't sit well with me. Marsha's not the
type of take her own life like that, So I
was just more surprised by that than anything else.
Speaker 11 (19:55):
She would never kill herself.
Speaker 8 (19:57):
We knew that we fought it.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
They did fight it.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Marcia's community started organizing to put pressure on the police.
They wanted a bigger investigation, They wanted to change the
declaration of her cause of death. Randy kept thinking back
to things that he'd heard when he was down at
the pier, that Marcia was bleeding when they pulled her out,
that she had a hole in her head, so there.
Speaker 7 (20:25):
Was blood coming out of her head. The blood ran
right down here and people kept walking over it.
Speaker 12 (20:29):
How do you know she had a hole in her head.
Speaker 7 (20:30):
I could see it. I could see the hole.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It's a haunting image, but it's also not proof of violence.
The body decomposes quickly in the water. In twenty seventeen,
the documentary team behind the Death and Life of Marsha P.
Johnson had an independent medical examiner look at the autopsy report.
(20:55):
He found there was no evidence of a violent assault
before Marcia drowned, but that.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Doesn't rule out violence.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
If someone pushed Marcia or even chased her into the water,
that would still be a homicide. It's also important to
acknowledge that it is possible Marcia died by suicide. She
may not have shared with anyone what she was going through,
will never know unequivocally. Her friends and family weren't sure
(21:29):
what happened, but they also felt like the police were
clinging to the wrong details. For example, the police report
mentions that Marcia was carrying her birth certificate. There are
reports that Marcia frequently talked about crossing the River Jordan
like in the old hymns she grew up with, that
the bullet in her back was causing her pain. Marcia
(21:52):
had recently thrown out all her clothes. The police seemed
to be taking these details as evidence that Marcia preparing
for suicide. But the thing is this was just Marsha.
Her birth certificate was a form of IDs she used
to get into clubs, she often got rid of her clothes,
(22:14):
and she'd been living with the bullet in her back
and it's a residual pain for over a decade. To
the people that knew her, all of this was normal.
Suicide wasn't something she talked about even when she was
nearing a breakdown. If anything, she'd been excited for Pride
(22:35):
a couple days after. She was happy to visit with
her family and brought her sister flowers for her birthday. Paloma,
who had spent time with Marsha on her Cape Cod trip,
also shared a detail that has stuck with me.
Speaker 9 (22:51):
Marcia was very afraid of the water.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
There were times in Marcia's life when she would look
for her father in the river or talk about how
being near it was cleansing, but just before her death,
it terrified her. On the cape, they take trips to
a nearby pond, and Marcia would literally sit back and
stay as far away as she could.
Speaker 9 (23:17):
She didn't want to go anywhere near the water.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
She didn't want to put her feet in.
Speaker 9 (23:21):
She'd stay back the same At the beach, she didn't
go in at all, and talked a lot about being
afraid of it, which makes me sad for the way
she died.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
It makes me sad too, And it's just one more
thing that doesn't add up.
Speaker 9 (23:37):
I thought, there's no way that Marcia would have killed
herself by jumping into water. That's just not what she
would have done. Ever, that's not how she would have
killed herself. I don't think she would try to feel
such pain and fear.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
With so many unanswered questions and disturbing possibilities, Marcia's community
members did what they'd always done well.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
They mobilized against the powers that be.
Speaker 14 (24:03):
That was swetters to the police Commissioner. And that was
a demonstration, and that was putting up flyers. You know,
we're pasting flyers throughout the village in Chelsea.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
This is Matt Foreman. In nineteen ninety two, he was
the executive director of New York's Anti Violence Project. Today,
he still works serving the queer community as the director
of a San Francisco organization that provides free legal services
for folks living with HIV and AIDS. At the Anti
(24:34):
Violence Project, or AVP, Matt worked with his team to
provide support for queer victims of violence and to help
them and their families find some justice. And there was
so much violence at the time Marsha died.
Speaker 14 (24:50):
We were handling up to sixteen hundred cases of anti
gay Wesleyan trans violence every year.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I'm curious about what you your take is on the
community's perception of the NYPD at that time. Was their
faith or trust that they would find justice for these people.
Speaker 14 (25:10):
There was very, very little trust.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
This is the whole reason the Anti Violence Project existed
in the first place, because the queer community needed a
way and to pressure the police to work towards justice.
When Marsha was found, the organization jumped into action. They
wanted to hold the police accountable.
Speaker 14 (25:33):
I never felt that they took a step back and
really started investing in the case from the get go,
meaning let's do a serious canvas of anyone who might
have been down there in those hours, Like let's really
try to figure out who saw what, who could have
seen what, could have posted a reward.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
They didn't.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Witnesses did come forward though.
Speaker 12 (26:00):
Fourth I was on this spear here.
Speaker 15 (26:03):
He was all standing around here by four black guys,
and I.
Speaker 7 (26:05):
Was standing around here.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
This is Benny Tony Matt Foreman didn't know him, but
he's one of the multiple witnesses who saw Marsha being
harassed that night.
Speaker 15 (26:16):
He was trying to tell Marsha to be a man,
and Marshall's was just being Marsha who Marshall was okay.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Benny went out of town shortly after the fourth of July.
It wasn't until he returned to New York in September
that he found out Marsha died. His memory of that
night came rushing back.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
He shared what he knew with Randy, who recorded their conversation.
Speaker 15 (26:40):
They had taken Marsha by the arms and by the
legs and swung him around the pier.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
After peer, Benny went to find a police officer that night,
but when he mentioned someone was being harassed, the officer
didn't seem worried about it. Bennie says, in all honesty,
he wasn't too worried. He'd seen Marsha back on her
own two feet after she was thrown around, so Benny
(27:06):
went to check out the fireworks. When he walked back
to the pier about an hour later, Marsha and these
guys were nowhere to be found. Another witness told AVP
that they saw Marcia early the next morning, around four
am on July fifth. She was up on twenty second Street,
but headed to the river. They said she was terrified
(27:30):
and felt like she was being followed. That was the
last time anyone on record saw Marcia. AVP says the
police definitely knew about that witness, and Benny Tony also
told the police his story.
Speaker 15 (27:48):
I see the food guys all the time down here
on the pier. They beat the hell all the white guys.
You can take the old white guy's money. Oh he didn't,
black guy. They was abouty thinh week.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Benny says they even robbed him once, but he didn't
feel like the NYPD really listened to what he had
to say.
Speaker 13 (28:04):
The first thing the police said to him, how much
did Randy Wicker pay you to come in here and
tell us the story? They wouldn't believe what Benny Toney
had told them, and they couldn't care less.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
By the fall of ninety two, Randy had jumped into
action to get some justice for Marcia. This made him
well known but not well liked by the sixth Precinct.
Speaker 5 (28:28):
Everyone, we have four of these at the shop show,
I should give him a whole stack.
Speaker 12 (28:31):
Give him a whole stacking.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Randy set up tables to raise awareness and put up flyers.
The front window of his store in the village became
part trine, part Justice for Marcia headquarters.
Speaker 12 (28:44):
You know what, if you'll come around the corner of
the Lightning Shop, I'll give you a packet of information
to give you articles about her death and about the
lousy police investigation.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
In Randy's shop window there were photographs and a poster
that said star and in the center of his display,
surrounded by antique figurines and light fixtures, was a giant
sign that read goodbye Marcia, we love you. The NYPD
continued its investigation. They interviewed over a dozen people and
(29:17):
wrote a report that was over thirty pages long, but
they weren't budging on the cause of death. Community members
made up their minds about what happened to Marsha.
Speaker 14 (29:29):
I believe that Marsha was either chased and was forced
into the river, or she was pushed into the river.
I'm convinced of that. I don't know who did it,
but that.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
I know happened.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
There are a lot of people who believe the same thing,
including Marcia's sister.
Speaker 6 (29:49):
I believe somebody killed her.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
And why do you feel that way.
Speaker 6 (29:53):
I just think it because one time she was saying
about how she had got shot, but she said, I'm
just keep right on going. We have be myself.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
It's true that Marcia faced so much violence in her
life just for being herself. On some level, whether or
not she was killed, she was still a victim. When
we went to visit Randy, he was wearing a shirt
in honor of her.
Speaker 13 (30:20):
I say, here, Marsha b Johnson's randgender victim of hate.
She was a victim of hate. That doesn't mean it's
gun being murdered. I think quite after way she could
have been.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Randy says he's divided about whether Marsha was killed or
whether she fell into the water because she was having
a breakdown. But I think there's something to this idea
that she was a victim either way. A victim of
a violent and transphobic and racist world, a victim of
law enforcement who didn't care enough to intervene when she
(30:56):
was being harassed, a victim of our healthcare system which
was never able to.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Offer her all the care she truly deserved.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
A victim of the government's neglect for the AIDS crisis.
Speaker 5 (31:10):
I have HIV for about two years. I mean, I'm
always dying, it's something or.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Other, always dying of something.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Marcia endured so much, but there was a limit to
what she could survive.
Speaker 6 (31:30):
Whether she went in the water because she wasn't receiving
the care that she needed, or whether she went in
the water because she was being chased, or whether she
went in the water because someone pushed her. It is
really clear that structural and interpersonal violence shaped that moment.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Tourmaline sees many factors in Marcia's death. She also points
out that Marcia wasn't alone in suffering from these systems.
This kind of violence was affecting so many queer entrance
people of color.
Speaker 6 (32:05):
We want to make sure we're not erasing the day
to day forms of violence that Marsha was navigating, that
we are not erasing the government neglect of our communities.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Tourmaline doesn't adopt one theory of Marcia's death and her biography.
She holds space for varying truths, and all of those
parts felt true and honest. But if that's the case,
what does justice really look like. In December nineteen ninety two,
(32:40):
five months after Marcia's death, her supporters had not given
up on her case. They organized the march to the precinct.
They kept talking to the press, they kept pushing. Finally,
the police sat down for a community meeting. Marsha's family
members were there, Randy was there, So was the Anti
(33:04):
Violence Project. Even a city council member made his voice heard.
Ten days after the meeting, the cause of the death
was officially changed. It was no longer considered a suicide. Instead,
it would be documented as a drowning of an undetermined nature.
Speaker 14 (33:27):
That was a big victory. It wasn't like Oh, we
found the perpetrators. But it was a victory.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
It's not an easy feat to get the NYPD to
change their mind, to admit they were wrong. After months
of work, this felt like a win, but it wasn't
a triumph. So much had been lost. Marsha had been lost.
Her community did away with a painful police narrative, but
(33:57):
that didn't offer real closure, not that then in the nineties,
and not for decades to come. The case was reopened
in twenty twelve. In twenty seventeen, a documentary team did
its own independent investigation, but Marcia's cause of death remains
(34:17):
unsolved to this day.
Speaker 8 (34:20):
Everyone wants to know what happened to the love You
know what I mean. Everyone wants to close you. She
always wants some kind of closure, put it to rest.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Marcia's death is still a source of pain, not only
for her loved ones and community, but even for us
now looking at her life in twenty twenty five. But
we can take solace that she was laid to rest
with so much love, and that Marsha's memory transcended the
violent unknowns of her death.
Speaker 12 (34:52):
I'm sure marsh be more touched by this than the
fanciest mass of Saint Patrick's.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Stick with Thus.
Speaker 4 (35:03):
I brought candles and glitter and loose change to sprinkle.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
We're back with Afterlives. This is Marcia's friend, Augusto Machado.
Back in July nineteen ninety two. In the hours after
Marcia's body was found, the news about her spread quickly
in the village. When it reached Augusto, he knew he
had to go down to the piers, and he knew
(35:30):
exactly what to bring with him.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
So I made a big, humongous circle of glitter and
then loose change of pennies Nicholstein's and quarters because she
always asked for spare change, and I thought, symbolically, well,
that's part of the journey, and to make her feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Augusto wasn't alone. Many people were moved to do the
same thing. People gathered, cried and shared memories by the peer.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
And it grew into a monument down there. And the
acknowledgment was really wonderful that people who really weren't friends
acknowledged that she made her mark an impression on all
these intergenerational people in the village just by living her life.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
What came together on the pier has been called the
People's memorial. Glass bottles formed a misshapen oval, and within
its borders, leaves covered the concrete. They marked the exact
spot Marsha's body had been laid down. You can see
(36:42):
it on our Instagram at afterlives dot pod. Marsha's roommate Randy,
brought his video camera to check it out, and he
was really moved by what he saw. You can hear
his voice break as he leaves. His own contribution came.
Speaker 12 (37:00):
Earlier, and I thought this was so nice that I
thought it deserves some flowers.
Speaker 14 (37:04):
So I'm gonna be the first one that put.
Speaker 12 (37:07):
Flowers gone from Marcia.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Over the days, more flowers, plants, candles, and photos accumulated.
Randy talked to some of the people who helped set
it all up.
Speaker 7 (37:23):
So the next morning when I came out, that's to
blocks and I put them around, and I put.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
The crush in and put a Randy started by chatting
with just one person on the pier, but others kept
coming over to share what they loved about Marcia, her
great sense of humor, how fabulous she was.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Marsha was so full of life, right.
Speaker 5 (37:44):
Marcia used to dance and dance, and she would never
leave the dance.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Cross would just how she helped people.
Speaker 5 (37:51):
Still a lot of good things.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
One person tells Randy to pan out to show how
many people Marcia was still bringing together Black people, white people,
Puerto Ricans. They say they didn't want to lose the
sense of community.
Speaker 7 (38:08):
And I hope it's not another thing like this to
bring us together again.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
A lot of people are going to miss so that's
for sure.
Speaker 12 (38:14):
You've given Marsha a wonderful, wonderful memorial here, you really have.
I'm sure mars should be more touched by this than
the fanciest mass of Saint Patrick's.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
The people's memorial was immediate and profound, and it's just
one of many expressions of grief and adoration for Marcia.
We're going to look at the many ways she was honored,
big and small. There really were some amazing celebrations for her,
but not everybody knew about them. The street queens may
(38:49):
have gathered to honor Marsha, but the bustle of the village,
it didn't stop Broadway, didn't demon's lights. She was a
legend while she was alive, but in a certain circle,
she wasn't the International Icon. She is today. She was
one death in a time when there were so many deaths.
Speaker 11 (39:14):
I lived in the West Village. All my friends lived
in the West Village. They're all dead all.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Jimmy Comitia founded the Hot Peaches. When I asked him
how he felt after Marcia died, he struggled to answer.
Speaker 11 (39:30):
They're looking for something to be there when there isn't
something there. I mean, you get to a point where,
I mean, what does it matter? After John, Mary, Angelou,
Jean and Jack all died that Mary dies.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Jimmy says this, but he tells me that when he
walks around his neighborhood he thinks of where they all
used to live. He might struggle to put into words
how he felt about Marcia's death. Yes, but he showed
up to our interview wearing a T shirt with her
face on it and with a watch on his wrist
that she bought him over thirty years before we were
(40:11):
in London.
Speaker 11 (40:12):
She went out and bought this watch that she gave
it to me as a thank you, I guess, and
no one had ever done that.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Jimmy said he didn't even really want to do this interview,
but Marsham would have told him to just sit down
and help us out. It took some convincing, but he did,
and he told us so many stories of Marsha's generosity
in his own way. I see that he carries her memory.
Speaker 16 (40:43):
That's why it was so important for me that night
when we performed and Jimmy said, sing tighter for Marsha,
we did.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Michael Lynch tears up remembering the night he found out
about Marcia's passing. He was on tour with the Hot
Peaches in Hamburg at the time. He spent the day
wandering around with tears in his eyes, raising eyebrows among
locals and other tourists.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
That night, he knew what he needed to do.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
He put on a dress that Marcia had sent him
off with right before they left for the tour. It
was powder blue with ruffles all over and sparkles too.
When the light hit it shimmered.
Speaker 16 (41:32):
And I don't think I ever want to dress again.
That was such an emotional night because we were waiting
to go on and we didn't get on till about
two o'clock that morning, and Hamburg was a place that
when you came out of the theater at like what
four in the morning, it was like daylight, so the
sun was shining when we came out of the theater
(41:54):
that night.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
He left it all on the stage for Marcia.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
I say, it's giddy Tyler.
Speaker 16 (42:02):
Every day anyway is nothing giddy light up in any
way Wayyay, just cannot be meeting, just cannot.
Speaker 8 (42:16):
Be for ree.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
From overseas to the streets of New York, people were
finding ways to express what Marcia made them feel deep
in their soul. Somehow, in a world that didn't accept her,
Marcia found so many places she belonged. Her absence was
felt in each of them, on the streets, on the stage,
(42:45):
of course, within her family, her siblings organized a service
in her hometown of Elizabeth. Randy and a few friends
were there too. A couple weeks after that, the biggest
memorial of all was held and Marsha's beloved Greenwich village.
Speaker 8 (43:03):
This was the most awesome spectacle I've ever seen in
my life.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Her nephew Al remembers it all so vividly.
Speaker 8 (43:13):
We go to this church and this church is packed
to the gills, packed, and there's a line of people
outside and around the corner, and I'm like, what's going
on here? What is this a dignitary diet? What's going on?
This is when I knew Marsha P. Johnson was somebody
for real.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
She was an icon.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Al knew all her stories from over the years were true.
She had lived a life bigger than he could fully imagine.
Speaker 8 (43:41):
It just boggled my mind. I'm like, what is going on?
Everybody got a story? Oh your aunt, your aunt, your aunt,
Marsha Marshall Wasshington.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
This is the service you heard at the beginning of
the episode. The church was packed with people who knew
Marsha or had been witnessed to her magic, all paying tribute.
There were runaway teenagers and the executive editor of the
Village Voice. There were stonewall veterans and stargirlies. There was
(44:19):
her chosen family and her family of origin.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
After the whole church.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Saying Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, a queue of people stood
up to speak. The ideal was to go in chronological order,
starting with stories from Marsha's childhood and spanning to speeches
by friends she'd met throughout her life. That way, everyone
experienced a full snapshot of who Marsha was. A couple
(44:51):
of Marcia's siblings started it off, including her brother Robert.
Many of the memorial goers didn't know Marsha's family, but
their stories of Marcia's generosity were recognizable to everyone there,
like how she'd give away clothes that weren't really hers.
Speaker 9 (45:12):
Was coming from my house, Marco give us on screen.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I know some of the tape is pretty hard to hear.
It was recorded on an old camera in a big space,
but person after person stood up in front of the crowd.
One friend acknowledged her role at the Stonewall riots and
said her death marked the end of an era.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Another sums up her impact.
Speaker 6 (45:42):
She was history, she was all insperience.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Her old friend and fellow star, Sylvia Rivera, was there too,
fiery as ever, hurting so much as the injustice of
this loss.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
She's been around her, going down and around.
Speaker 8 (46:05):
Or she hadn't over home to go.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
But she says, even though they've lost her in another way,
in a spiritual sense, Oh, they'll be getting Marsha back.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
Because this is a beautiful show turnout and she's gonna
be stot crowd.
Speaker 15 (46:21):
My god, a neighbor keep her.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
At one point, someone from the mayor's office came to
read a letter about this longtime activist who brought so
much to the streets of New York.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
She led the spirit to live and tonight, to survive
the neighbor.
Speaker 8 (46:50):
A true citizen of the city. She would be a
sincerely dating fantasy.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
After people had their saying, the group walked down to
the pier like a big parade.
Speaker 8 (47:05):
Now we go out to church and we're going to march.
That's what're marching, is this procession. And I mean you
look back and it's just people and it's filling the
whole street. So now as we're marching, the cops are
out there to come up stop and they're like, what's
going on? What's going on? And to whoever telling Marsha
he talks to cop is like, who wait a minute,
wait a minute. They stopped right all the traffic. They
(47:27):
stopped all the traffic.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Hard as it is to believe, I've heard that story
from multiple people.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
The NYPD stop the traffic from Marsha P.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Johnson.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
When the contingent made their way to the river, they
released her ashes into the water.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
They laughed and cried.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
And hugged and said goodbye. It's exactly what Marcia would
have wanted.
Speaker 6 (48:02):
Time and I die.
Speaker 5 (48:03):
I hope nobody cries. Don I hope they thing and
dance to have a great big party. And I'm just
home and I die and I get cremated. My ashes
found the Hudson mit with all of that to those girls.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Marcia said it herself in the interview with her friend Tony.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Weeks before she passed.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
She never saw her life as limited to her body,
and this body needed a break.
Speaker 5 (48:31):
Cause, don I'll just be starting to live my life
over again. This old body had just had worn out
dog and a new one and just be on its way.
Here you get to the next disc gallentime. I mean,
at least that's the way I feel.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Marcia's does, and the uncertainty around it is so hard
to sit with to accept it wasn't fair. But Marshall
didn't fear death.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
She felt fulfilled by.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Her life, and she trusted that her spirituality would carry
her onwards.
Speaker 5 (49:18):
No, I wrote this cute little song It's told when
I die. When I die, please don't cry, because I'm
going to be with my Lord and thank him for
all the days and nights he had watched over me,
hurt all my prayers and answered them. Dance party, eat,
(49:40):
drink and be happy and marry. Hope all your hopes
and dreams come true for you, like most of mine.
Thank you Lord for all the blessings and love you've
always given me.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Next time on After Life, Marcia has never been more
alive than right now.
Speaker 6 (50:04):
Every day, every moment, she's getting bigger.
Speaker 13 (50:07):
Let's say I went to heaven and man into Marcia.
I'd say, Marsha, you became very famous.
Speaker 5 (50:12):
That is Marcia's legacy is giving black trans kids the
freedom to exist.
Speaker 13 (50:19):
Grab your transistor's hand, grab your butcher's hand, grab all
the hands you can grab and hold tight. The tailor
legged fucking is exactly the choos.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
Thank you so much for listening to Afterlives. You can
find this episode in future ones on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please leave
us the rating and review to let us know what
you think. Afterlives is a production of The Outspoken Network
from iHeart Podcasts in partnership with School of Humans. I'm
(50:58):
your host and creator, Rock Willis. Dylan Hoyer is our
senior producer and scriptwriter. Our associate producer is Joey pat
Sound design and engineering by Jess Crinchich, Story editing by
Julia Urlaan, fact checking by Carolyn Talmage. Score composed by
(51:19):
Wazi Muring. Our production manager is Daisy Church. Executive producers
include Me, Raquel Willis and Jess Crinchich from The Outspoken
Podcast Network, Amelia Brock, Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Elsie
Crowley from School of.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Humans and The Cavs Company.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
The image of Marsha and our show art is provided
by the Leslie Lohman Museum of Art Founder's gift p.
Fifteen dot six nine nine dot one oh six. A
special thank you to everyone who provided archival tape, including
Marsha nineteen ninety two by Michael Cassine and Marcia at
(52:01):
Tony Nunziatis by Michael Casino courtesy of Michael Casino, the
Randy Wicker and Marsha P. Johnson papers at the LGBT
Community Center National History Archive, and Bob Kohler Papers, Box
five Videotape eleven the LGBT Community Center National History Archive,
Host
Raquel Willis
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