Is Anxiety Mandatory? with Meg Donnelly + Alegra Kastens

After living through 2020, it would be hard for ANYONE not to have anxiety. So how are you supposed to cope? We're joined by American Housewife's Meg Donnelly and psychotherapist Alegra Kastens to talk about how to manage anxiety, what you can learn from a diagnosis, and why you might not even realize you have it. Alex Aiono and his guests break down its many different forms, from anticipatory anxiety to panic disorders, to OCD - and uncover ways you can use anxiety as your superpower.

Executive Producers Jack O'Brien + Miles Gray

Produced by Catherine Law + Joelle Smith

Edited + Engineered by Catherine Law

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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Alex, and I've been diagnosed with anticipatory anxiety.
No be alright, no, al right, will be all right
for ever? No be alrl right, No, will be all

(00:20):
right for ever? Alright? So check this out. This is
pretty sick. Actually, I don't know if it's sick, but
it's sick that I'm dealing with it. Uh So, after
a long time, I mean after this is years and
years and years of knowing that something wasn't right in
my brain, I finally decided in to get a therapist
for the first time ever. It was really thanks to

(00:44):
some specific people in my life, Ron Star who's been
on our podcast before, my girlfriend Madison, family, and friends
outside of that who are all like, yeah, you should
get a therapist. It's not lame, it's not weak, it's
not stupid or or embarras. Are seeing to have a therapist,
you should do it. And I finally was like, Okay, cool,
and I'm going to shout out my therapist because he's

(01:05):
dope and his name is Phil. Shoutouts Phil. Uh And
within one conversation with Phil, he had told me that
I had anxiety and we kind of started pinpointing exactly
I don't know if it's like a type. Honestly, I'm
gonna I want to preface, as I do with all
of our mental health episodes, that I am not a therapist.
This is why I have therapists come on the show,

(01:26):
so I kind of use human terms. So he was
trying to pinpoint, like what kind of anxiety I had,
and we came up with this conclusion and this diagnosis
that I have anticipatory anxiety, which means that the anxiety
that I have is from anticipating what potentially might happen,
uh and kind of projecting what may come and really
freaking out about it before I even have a chance

(01:46):
to go through it. I really don't know if that's normal.
I don't know how common it is. That's just how
it went. And as soon as he started telling me
what could potentially be symptoms of anticipatory anxiety, I thought
this man knew my life, like he is spitting everything
that I go through on a daily basis, from worrying
if my friends still like me or if they have

(02:07):
a problem with me, or worrying if my girlfriend's actually
mad about something, or worrying about my parents health for
no reason when they're both very healthy fortunately, uh. And
it really was like this door opened and while I
still have anxiety and I most likely always will, I

(02:29):
was allowed to see it and go, oh, that's that's
just my anticipatory anxiety. So on an everyday basis, as
soon as I start freaking out about something, you know,
I've worked through ways that I deal with it with
my therapist. But more than those ways, it was just
nice knowing that I'm not like crazy. But it was
just nice knowing that I didn't have to deal with

(02:49):
this alone and that what I was dealing with is actually, unfortunately,
very very common, especially after this last year I think
get uncovered for a lot of people, or it really
started brewing up in a lot of people anxiety. So
that got me thinking, with the way that the world
is today is anxiety mandatory. Yo, what's up. It's alex Ion. No,

(03:13):
this is my podcast. Let's get into it, and we're
going to get into something that's very very personal. We've
spoken about it quite a bit on this podcast, but
it is something that we wanted to highlight today, and
it is anxiety. We're talking about all different types of anxiety,
all different symptoms of anxiety, all different situations and in
the way that anxiety kind of takes over a lot

(03:35):
of people's lives in the world. And when I say we,
I mean my two amazing guests, and I first, up,
I actually know this person. Usually it's the first guest
is a stranger, but the first guest. She is starring
in ABC's American Housewife. She's on the Disney Channel original
movie series Zombies. She's also an amazing singer. She released
her debut album Trust in December of twenty nineteen. We

(03:59):
also pranked one of my previous hosts on Radio Disney, Candice,
and she's just she's just a chill ass vibe. Honestly,
that's what we're gonna just say, chill ass vibe, chill
ass individual. The one and only Meg Donnelly. How are you, Meg, Hey,
I'm good. It's good to see you again. Good to
see you again as well. Um, I'm glad. I'm glad

(04:21):
that you're here, and I'm glad that you are another
person of influence who is open about their experiences in
the mental health world, and and I'm super stoked to
talk about it with you. And I'm glad that even
though both of us are entertainers, and we deal with
anxiety ourselves. We don't have to be the experts here.
We got an expert here, so we don't have to
worry about it. Um and it's our other guest. She

(04:41):
is a therapist practicing in Los Angeles only for a
for a short while in Los Angeles. She just told
us she's moving to New York, specializing in the treatment
of obsessive compulsive disorder also known as o c D,
also specializing in anxiety disorders and body dysmorphic disorder b
D d UH. In the addition, she is a writer
with Psychology Today and Very Well Mind. Her Instagram account

(05:05):
is Obsessively ever After, and she advocates for all things
mental health on that Instagram that was a big mouthful
Allegra cast In's how are you WHI I'm good, How
are you? I'm doing well. I'm excited to be talking
with you because it seems like you really just do
it all and you know it all. I know. I
don't want to make you big shoes to fill, but
it seems like you're doing enough that we can have

(05:27):
some some real conversation and talk about it. Today we're talking.
We've got three topics. The way that the podcast goes is, first, Meg,
you and I are going to be going one on
one and we're gonna be talking about everyday anxiety, dealing
with it on a daily basis. We'll take a break,
and then when we come back from that break, Allegra
and you and I are gonna be talking about toxic
thoughts on loop, kind of really deep diving into, um,

(05:50):
the more serious side of mental health issues, specifically anxiety,
and then lastly mandatory anxiety. But before we get into those,
I have a question that I ask all of my guests,
and that question is what are you doing to improve
yourself this week? Um. It's currently Friday. It's been five days.
Saturday and Sundays are kind of like my junk food
days and my like chill out days. So I didn't

(06:12):
want to start my New Year's resolutions until Monday. UM.
And so this week is actually exciting because I had
all of my New Year's resolutions, which I am proud
to say I have stuck to the first week, and
there were a lot. One of them was not procrastinating,
So I did that. I did UM. Usually I'm up
until the wire filming my YouTube videos at the very

(06:32):
last minute and then posting them. I got that video
done a day early, which I was hyped about. I've
been eating healthy all week long, except for was my
girlfriend's birthday this week and I had my cheat meal
with her, which I was allowed. Um, and that I
allowed myself, nobody's holding me to eat healthy. And then lastly,
my biggest thing was flossing. I went to the dentist
and miraculously had no cavities after being terrible in twenty

(06:56):
about my flossing, and I knew that it was a
sign from the heavens that I need to floss more,
because I wasn't going to get that opportunity to have
no cavities again after not flossing much. So I've been
flossing every night and every morning, which I usually do.
Like me, I was pretty much like a morning flosser.
But now I floss at night too, and that's cool.

(07:16):
It's a big difference. You sleep really well with some
some clean teeth. But now that you have an example, Meg,
what have you been doing this week to to better yourself?
This week? Um? This week, I've been trying to be
more active. Exercise is not like the greatest thing in
the world, but um, it's firsthand experience. I agree, right, Um,

(07:37):
So I've been just trying to motivate myself. I like dancing,
so that's fun. But like, besides dancing, I've been trying
to do that. Like my New Year's resolutions have just
been to just kind of go with the flow. I mean,
especially now, like everything is just so open in the
air and everyone's like, oh, actually it's going to be
next month or you know, those types of things. So
I'm just trying to let loose and I and like

(08:00):
an avid overthinker, so just trying to go with the flow.
And this week has actually been pretty good with very
good you know what, Like still hard at work, still
doing everything, but at the same time kind of just
letting everything fall into place. At least I'm trying, and
you know, that's what matters. New Year. It's been good
first week as long as if you can crush through

(08:21):
the first week, then yere, I call it a win.
I call the resolution a win. Yeah, what about you?
What have you been doing this week? So I'm going
to take a different spin on this question. Okay, so
I'm going out on a limb here, but I have
basically been surviving this last week because I am moving
to New York next week, and I think sometimes we
feel a lot of pressure, especially in the new year,

(08:42):
to constantly be improving ourselves, and especially if someone's dealing
with anxiety or any other mental health issues along with
big stressors, just surviving is good enough. So that's what
I've been doing over the last week. That's like the
top that's a top tier therapist answer right there. And
also as as amazing as the answer is, it's not

(09:04):
even an uncommon answer. Like we've had a lot of
different people coming on the show and they say the
thing that they've been doing is letting themselves kind of
letting themselves enjoy whatever comes their way. Or the way
that I've been surviving this week is how I'm improving.
Is if I need a giant milkshake every day of
the week or every meal, that's what it is. So
I love that, um, surviving in itself is improving. Uh

(09:27):
in my opinion, Well, let's crack straight into it. We
will be talking with you in just a bit allegro.
But Meg, it's time for us to go one on
one al right. Like I mentioned before, you have been very,
very influential in the space of opening up about your anxiety. Um,
it's been a couple of years since you did that,
But you also mentioned when you when you did talk

(09:48):
about and open up about your mental health, you had
talked about how you had it since you were little. Um,
what about the time in which you decided to speak
up about your mental health made you want to speak
about it then? There? Yeah, I didn't really speak fully
out about it and started like really advocating until this
quarantine because I kind of just you know, being stuck

(10:10):
in your room looking at social media all the time,
like I was seeing so many people were going through
the same thing, and especially during these times, a lot
of people are more open about it and kind of
just asking for help, kind of being like yo, like
what's going on. It's like such a scary time, you know.
And I was like wow, like all of these people,
Like if I opened up about my story, like maybe

(10:32):
I can help at least like one person, and that
would make me so happy. Um, because growing up I
always thought that I was alone, Like I thought that
nobody else was going through anything remotely like me, which
was so false because like it's not true at all.
But I just felt like I was, like you said before,
like I felt crazy. Um, and so I none of

(10:55):
my friends really knew about it. Actually, I guess I'm
like a happy person. It's not like it takes over
my life, but like I do have anxiety and panic
attacks like all the time. So um, yeah, it's just
really weird. It's like because you know, you say you
have anxiety and people are like, what now you don't
like you don't look like it, and I'm like, well, okay, cool,
thanks for that. You know. So I never felt like

(11:17):
I had to talk about it because it was something
that I always should sit on my own. And luckily,
my parents are like the best people in the world,
so they helped me so much. And my dad studied
psychology in college, so that was pretty helpful because he
was kind of like, oh, I see what's going on here.
I get that, I know that look. Yeah. But it

(11:38):
was funny because growing up my my parents really didn't
think just like all those other people. They were like,
there's no way it's even remotely possible that she has anxiety,
like she's such a happy kid. So they it was
hard for them too because they kind of, you know,
they didn't want to believe it, and they really didn't
think anything of it. But yeah, I'm so grateful for them.

(11:59):
And when I was little, I went to a therapist
as well, so I kind of at a young age
realized that, like, therapy is so normal and completely okay
and you shouldn't be ashamed about it. But I think
that's so awesome that you got Yeah, I think it's
amazing that you you were exposed to it so early.
I think it's a big, big issue. Unfortunately, I wasn't
exposed to it that same amount. I didn't even know

(12:22):
that my family members or close friends were going to
therapy until I said, oh, I just started going to therapy,
and my family members like, oh, that's awesome. Yeah, I've
been doing it for years. And I was like, bitch,
why didn't you tell me? Like what the and so,
I mean, the other thing is too you and you
had highlighted it a bunch, which was what anxiety looks like,
right like you kind of you had mentioned like what

(12:43):
people will say like, well, you don't have anxiet, you
don't look like you have anxiety. You don't And especially
for somebody who gets to experience adventure and and and
their job is to live an exciting, always fun on
your toes. You're at awards shows, you're doing this, you're
doing that. You also, at least from my experience, it
comes up that you start feeling kind of shameful that

(13:06):
you are experiencing these things. You're like, well, why do
I have anxiety when I live the coolest life, Like
I'm talking, I'm meeting celebrities, and I'm acting on movies
and and all of these awesome things are happening, like
I shouldn't, like it's wrong for me to feel anything bad,
And so then you also start thinking that also feeds
into the I am unique. Nobody understands what I'm going
through because nobody gets what I'm doing. And as as

(13:29):
you become and this isn't even in our field, in
the entertainment realm, but I think as you become an
adult and your life starts shifting, and it's so unique
compared to your friends, Like you're going through things and
you're breaking up with people, and you're dating specific people,
and your jobs specific and everything feels specific. You start
feeling like your emotions become specific and nothing else is relatable. Right, No,

(13:50):
it's so true. I feel like a lot of times
people compare themselves to others, like without even noticing it,
and it's like they're going through so much worse than
I am, Like they're fine, Like how how am I
still you know, struggling day to day? But no one
has the same brain as you, and like no one
is exactly like you. So it's your life and it's

(14:11):
your journey. So you just have to even if there's
a party and you feel like you're going to miss
out because there's so many people there, but you know
you're just having an anxious day and it's just not
a good day for you, Like you should just look
out for yourself, like you shouldn't be worried, like oh
if I don't go like what if people? Because I
used to do that all the time. Not the one
speaking speaking exactly to that um, And we talked about

(14:34):
how there's no there's no look for anxiety, Like I
feel like if people were to like make up a
look in their head of what anxiety was, it would
be like I don't know, like chattering teeth, I don't know,
but like there is no image of what anxiety actually is,
right like for me, anxiety like to me looks exactly
the damn same as everything else in my life. Like
I've if anybody has a great anxiety poker face, it's me,

(14:57):
it's your boy. Like I literally I could be on
stage like I've been, and I'm sure you feel the
same thing too as a as a performer, like you
could be on stage being like follow your dreams, do this,
and internally you're literally like I think I might shoot
myself tomorrow, Like I don't, You have no idea, right,
And So for you specifically, just for the listeners to know,

(15:17):
I think it'd be awesome to continue sharing with people
what our anxiety looks like. So what for you, what
does anxiety look like? Or what kind of symptoms do
you do you regularly experience? Yeah, you're so right, because
a lot of people when they think about anxiety or
panic attacks or anything in that vein, they think, like

(15:38):
it looks like a panic attack, like someone's just like
melting down, Like that's what it looks like. But literally,
for me, it's like every day, like my mindset is
just kind of it's just who I am. It's the
way my brain works, you know, and like it's just
something that you have, it's I don't know, and there's
so many different variations in colors, and no one has

(15:58):
the same experience. That's why I feel like it's so
easy to feel alone. For me, it's very strange. But
heat is like a huge trigger for me. Every time
it's like really hot out or I start sweating or something,
or sometimes I'll literally just be walking and it's just
all internal like I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know for sure,
like whatever, and I'm smiling, but on the inside, I'm

(16:19):
just kind of like, you know, very tense. So it's
so hard to like pinpoint what you're kind of anxiety
looks like. So have you had any moments where like
somebody close to you, whether family, friends, whatever, um, Like
I've had this with my family or with my girlfriend.
They've both pointed out things that I didn't even know
I would do, and they that's how they kind of

(16:40):
started realizing. They're like, you know what, I can tell
that when I guess, I do a fast smirk like
like and they could tell that that's something like it's
just like a weird thing that out there, like okay, cool,
I know that something's up when you do that. And
most of the time it's that you had mentioned heat.
For me, it's silence, like I my roommates know this
for sure, Like I'll I'm into their room randomly, just

(17:01):
if if if nobody's making noise if I'm not around.
And it's weird because it's the same thing with being
by myself. Either being by myself, I have the most
fun in the world, Like I can joke and I'm
laughing nobody around you think that I'm like a like
I'm literally like a lunatic, or I'm having the most
insane like I can't get out of bed, like spiraling down.

(17:23):
That's so interesting because one of the things during this
whole quarantine period, it made me realize how I wasn't
even like acquaintances with myself, like you know what I mean,
Like I was like sitting in my room like yo,
like I need to do so much work, Like what
I realized that I was seeing all these people and
like leaving my house all the time just to distract

(17:44):
myself because I'm like, yo, I'll do it this later.
And like this really forced me to like sit down
and be like yo, I need to figure out how
I can be by myself because like it's hard, you know,
but so I totally feel you. I would imagine that
you obviously you You've spoken, you said that this was
something you were dealing with last like last year. You
start becoming friends with yourself? Are you becoming more acquainted

(18:07):
with yourself? And so I want just for listeners out
there who might be on the front side of it
and haven't necessarily crossed over to that. I'm we're going
to talk to a legra about tips and all of that,
but I can guarantee and I think you can also
guarantee that getting to that other side and being able
to sit with yourself in silence and being able to
like laugh at yourself. One of the biggest things that
I do that my therapist taught me is anytime I

(18:28):
have it, I ask myself, like, what am I not
loving about me right now? That's making me think, that's
making me project into the future, And so like, I'll
ask myself that all the time, and it becomes like
a joke in my head. And I know that I
don't want if you think or talk to yourself that
you're totally normal. I think it's the most normal thing.
I think it's incredibly fun. I'll talk to myself like

(18:48):
I literally, my roommates will come in and be like, Bro,
who the hell are you talking to? And I would
be like, it's me. That is so funny, Like I'll
be in the shower having full conversation. Yeah, I called
myself Bro. I'm like, Bro, what are you even thinking
right now? I didn't even know right here? You know,
I can't believe that. I want to change. I want

(19:09):
to change the subject. And I promised we're going to
find ourselves circling back. Um, have you seen the Katy
Perry documentary? Uh, I'm I'm not necessarily one to say,
but there is one segment in the Katy Perry documentary
where she is in the middle of getting divorced and
she's bawling her eyes out and she's literally at under

(19:29):
the stage, so she's bawling her eyes out right, and
then she like literally goes and she just turns it
on this Katy Perry smile. Right. I want to The
reason I brought this up is because the next question
I have for you is more specific for you and
for me as well, because I remember when I first
saw that I hadn't I hadn't seen a therapist yet,
but I had started feeling kind of those darker thoughts

(19:52):
and those darker feelings that I wasn't used to, and
in my mind, I thought, Okay, something's wrong with me.
But after seeing Katy Perry do that, I thought, that's
how you do it. You just kind of breathe twice
and then you smile and you're good to go and
you can keep working. You've been acting since you were
a kid. You're obviously very well versed and very experienced
in the industry. How has your mental healthy anxiety, the

(20:16):
darker moments affected or impacted your day to day life
as an entertainer being on stage? Maybe you're working, like
you had mentioned, you're on set and you feel like hell,
and you don't want to do anything, and everybody hates
you in your mind and all of these things. These
are things that I've dealt with specifically then, and I
don't know if you've dealt with those as well, but
it definitely can affect your day to day life, especially

(20:37):
in the workplace. We happen to work in the entertainment business.
How has it affected you in your career? Yeah, man, Um,
I mean like growing up, like I would go to
like three or four auditions a week in New York,
and there's so many auditions that I would do that
I would just get in the room and just I
would just be a mess. But you kind of have
to turn it on as best as you can. And

(20:59):
especially when I was younger, it was so much worse.
But now there will be moments on set where there's
a lot of pressure because also at the same time,
like whether you're singing or acting, like there's so many
people involved just behind the scenes. So like if you
are like, yo, like can I just take a second
to cool off, you're making all those people wait and

(21:19):
you can totally do that, But in my mind, I'm
putting more pressure on myself because I was like, oh no,
like I don't want them to wait around, like they
have families at home. I just need to get through it.
But there's moments on set where I'll be in the
middle of a scene and you know, when you start
kind of panicking and like the whole room becomes a
little bit more sharp. Does that make sense? You know
in movies when like people are kind of hallucinating and

(21:42):
like it kind of focuses in and there they're like
breathing heavy. You know that, Yeah, and you look around,
and there's been so many times where I thought I
was gonna have to be like, yo, I'm gonna I'm
gonna dip for a sec like I need space. But
you know, for me, like I always see it as
kind of like winds, like battles almost. I always saw
it like that when I was younger. So performing made

(22:05):
me less anxious, but it also made cause anxiety at
the same time. It's like a weird loophole. But when
I would get on stage, everything would kind of go away.
But if I could, I would get so anxious because
I was always afraid about being on stage and I
never had stage right before, so I was like, what
is going on, Like what is happening to me? And

(22:26):
I would get on stage and I'm like, yo, I
just need to win and I need to win this battle.
So then when I would come off stage, I was like,
it feels so good because not only are you getting
up in front of people and you're singing and you
have to worry about everything going on, You're also dealing
with like a whole other separate thing. You're like fighting
with yourself at the same time. So I'm like, if
I can overcome that, I can you know, I can

(22:50):
put my mind to anything. You know. Well, that's the
thing too, is luckily we are very very fortunate that
we get to do what we love, right, We're doing
what we love regularly, but it's also our job, you know,
and so some days, even though we don't necessarily feel
up to it, or or we're not necessarily feeling our
our best selves, you still got to show up. You

(23:10):
still got to do shows. I've done countless shows where
it was Katie Perry ask. I've never gotten divorced, you know,
and found out about it an hour before the show.
But I've had dark you know, like a really bad
bad day, and I'm in my mind, I'm like, well,
I don't have the option. I have to go and
perform the show. And you talk yourself into it and
you get into it. And I also wanted to point

(23:32):
out that it can definitely feel I know exactly what
you're talking about when you're saying like you're you're in
and out of like blurriness and something's really sharp and
you're identifying things, and it can be that big of
a thing. But I've also noticed that sometimes I've also
noticed though that sometimes it's just it's it could be
a simple, tiny thing as well that I've that I've
luckily this last year I've learned to understand. You know,

(23:56):
I've done virtual tours since we've gotten into pandemic, and
and I'll be in the middle of it and it
won't be as something big as that. It'll just be
something that's like me saying, like, you sucked that song.
That song sucked. Everybody knows that it sucked, and it'll
just be a random, tiny little seed in my head
that you can allow to grow into this big thing
and kind of loom over you for the rest of
the show. And so at work, like I I like,

(24:20):
I can't keep going with like I have to, and
you think everybody noticed it, and you're like and you
and everybody's chatting to each other, like did you notice
that Alex that Alex messed up? And then yeah, you
talked to your team afterwards and you're like, man, I
sucked right there, and they're like, dude, nobody noticed it,
and you're just like you're lying because you make a
certain percentage off, like you can expand that and you

(24:40):
can take the tiniest seed like a missed note or
a flat a flat, you know, chorus and make it
this grandiose thing. And that's not only in the music world.
That can be And if you send an email, if
you're at work and you send an email and somebody goes, oh,
you actually messed up, it's this. If you have the
wrong mentality, you could turn that into a I'm going

(25:02):
to get called into my boss's office right now and
get fired like it's a guarantee. And so um. In
a career in general, it can mess up, but it
also can mess up, like in the personal life. Like
I know that I was so fortunate. I mentioned in
my story earlier that my girlfriend was somebody who taught me,
who was like who held my hand through the process
and was like, it's okay, she's never been to therapy,

(25:24):
but she was full blown like I really want you
to go to therapy. Don't worry. But until we had
done that, we had gotten in fights that I can
now go back and identify were my anxiety getting the
best of me and and overreacting to something and then
also pinpointing. I go back to my older, older relationships
and I identify, like, oh, I didn't have trust issues.

(25:45):
I had really bad anxiety that I pinpointed as trust issues,
when in reality, I don't. I don't have as many
trust issues as I thought I did. I just get
really anxious when I'm by myself that I start thinking, well,
what is she doing? And then I come up with
this whole thing. It's not trust issues. I just didn't
know how to be by myself, you know what I mean.
And it was just my my mental health. For you,
how is your anxiety uh gotten in the way of

(26:08):
your relationships? It could be in love life or it
could just be in your friendships as well. I mean
for me, Like when I was younger, I used to
be one of those annoying, like over texters because I
just thought that everyone was just on their phone all
the time. Yeah, I thought everyone hated me and I
was like, I'm sorry, did I do something wrong? Like whatever?
Like I was one of those, but I yeah I

(26:29):
used to be. I think I'm better now with my friends,
Like I just want to make sure that everyone's good
and everyone's okay. I'm like, if you would tell me right,
like whatever. But um, I also think on the point that,
like your girlfriend has been there supporting you so much,
like when I was younger, like I never wanted to
open up to people. Even now, it's so hard to
talk about it with people, just because like I always

(26:51):
get back to a habit of being like I don't know,
I don't know, I don't know, Like I'm sorry, I'm sorry,
I don't know, Like that's all I'm able to say,
like when we talk about it, but really opening up
to people, because I was always afraid that if I
opened up to someone that my whole life, like they're
just constantly going to be like are you okay, like oh,
do you need this? Like whatever? And I didn't want to.

(27:13):
I just wanted to just like have fun and forget
about it, you know. But it's not like that at all.
Having someone there makes you so much more comfortable, Like
if you have a person who knows what you're going
through and you're out with them in public. For me,
it's almost like a safety blanket because I know that
if something goes wrong, they'll be there and they're gonna
help you, like no matter what. Even though I still

(27:35):
apologize every five seconds, but it's okay, but I still
working on that. That's a good point though. That's you
you go to therapy, right and and I want to
point this out because a lot of people haven't been
to therapy or nervous about it or or skeptical about it.
You had pointed out like I'm still I still say sorry,
like I still have insane freakouts and overthinking and all

(27:55):
of this stuff. And and so that's kind of before
we take this break, I want to point this out
and and say it with you that there's there's two
sides of it. One, there's no kind of um finish line.
I guess there's no like goal like good job, no
more anxiety, You're done, go home, You're good for the
rest of your life. Yeah, it's not. It's not, and
I think that's a misconception. But two, it is if

(28:17):
you are consistently trying to, as my manager uses the term,
do the work, like if you're consistently trying to do
the work to better it, it does get better. And
I think that that's something that I always try and
pinpoint when I talk to anybody, whether I'm open about it,
because it is still like you had mentioned, like even
though I'm open about it on social media, sometimes my
girlfriend will be like, well, how is therapy today? And
I just don't want to like I'm just like I

(28:38):
don't like, uh, like it was good. I don't really
want to talk too much about it, and sometimes I
want to talk about it, and it's like it is
this breathing, flowing process. Don't you agree? I totally agree. Yeah,
And especially like me and other people that I know,
like just with opening up about it and talking about
it with your close friends. A lot of times, I

(28:59):
feel like I'm almost like a burden sometimes, like I
don't know, like just always being having to talk about
and being like like I don't know, sorry, like I'm
sorry that I'm putting this on you, like this is stupid,
but it's really not. Your close friends and the people
who love you for you will one thousand percent, and therapy,
your therapists, they're there for that. You know, you don't

(29:19):
have to apologize because they want to help you, and
like the people you love want to help you. So
it's still processing in my brain that it's like yo,
like you're good, like you can talk about it and
it's not a bad thing. I just want everyone to
know that you're not because on the other side, it's
really funny when you're going through something and then someone
tells you the same exact thing that you're going to
and you're like, no, you're fine, But I'm like, why

(29:41):
don't I treat myself absolutely where you're like, oh, dude,
then sweat it. And then when it's your turn, you're like,
don't tell me not to sweat it. I don't know. Yeah, yeah,
Like you're not alone, and you're one thousand percent no
a burden. You're just human, you know, absolutely. Um. As
a last question before we take this break, you obviously

(30:03):
have a following, and and because you're open about it,
I'm sure that there's a lot of people who reach
out to you about their mental health. And unfortunately, unless
you are up thirty five hours of the day, you
can't necessarily get back to everybody. You can't respond to everybody.
And so right now on the podcast, I would love
for you to just give your advice to anybody who's
following you or following me who's having trouble managing their anxiety.

(30:27):
I think that there's a lot of people who would
love to hear um that overall advice, well, the things
that have helped me a lot, like personally, I don't know,
you know, I don't want to speak for everyone, but
things that have really helped me, And like my journey
is like writing it down, like writing down my thoughts
or even I mean I speak to myself all the

(30:49):
time and saying it out loud, because sometimes I'll start spiraling.
And when I say it out loud or I speak
to somebody, or I write it down and I look
at it and I really like hear it, I'm like, oh,
like why was I thinking? Like that actually is like ridiculous,
Like what am I doing? You know? So I kind
of just put it all on paper and it's not

(31:09):
as scrambled, I guess, and then you kind of realized
like oh, and also for me, even though I don't
like exercising, it's like the worst. But for me, I
just do like dance parties in my room something to
just get the heart going and you kind of just like,
you know, get those endorphins running and kind of get
all the negative energy out. It makes me feel so

(31:29):
much better. But you know, just sitting in your room
all day, like for me at least, like that's when
I start to overthink things and all that stuff. So
I've never I've never written them out, but I'm definitely
gonna do that because that sounds like a great idea
because you have moments of this like kind of almost
it's not necessarily you and then you go back and
you read them and you're like, oh, yeah, that's that.

(31:51):
None of those things are valid. It was just this.
Or you could find something where you're like, oh, that
is a valid fear, like let's figure out why we
feel like that, you know exactly. And then when you
look back, you can see all of your progress and
you can see and or if you run into the
same problem over and over and you keep going back,
you're like, yo, what I needed. I gotta figure out

(32:12):
what this is. Yeah, because it keeps coming back. So
that's perfect. Well, we're gonna take a quick break, but Meg,
thank you so much one for being here, but more
importantly for being and being another influence who is open
to discussing mental health and discussing firsthand what it's like.
I think it's it's something that we definitely need more
of and and I'm excited for us to talk altogether

(32:35):
at the last segment on more of this. But we'll
be right back. All right, we are back. This is
let's get into it, and we are now talking with
Allegra cast In's UM, if you miss the intro, you
gotta go back and listen to it. Uh, you are
our expert today on the subject of anxiety. Um, you're
also a therapist and an O c D advocate. Tell

(32:58):
us a little bit before we get into some questions.
I just want to know why you do what you
do and how you kind of came into this, uh
this community on Instagram as well. Yeah, it's definitely a
very specific niche. And when I was growing up, I
dealt with a ton of mental health symptoms that I
just didn't have words for. Like, my family didn't go
to therapy, we didn't talk about mental health. Looking back,

(33:22):
I struggled with binge eating and anxiety and panic attacks
that moved into anorexia when I was nineteen, But I
just didn't have the language for any of it. I
didn't really understand that therapy existed and that it was
something that could help me. But the real thing that
kind of changed the course of my life was a

(33:43):
little bit later on. I can remember the exact day
that it happened. I was nineteen and I was at
work one day and I had this intrusive thought pop
into my mind, and it was the most terrifying thought
I could ever think in my entire life. And from
that point forward, that thought just started replaying in my
brain all day long. And for a year and a half,

(34:05):
I had no idea what it was that I was
struggling with, but eventually found out that it was obsessive
compulsive disorder. But my struggle with o c D and
me getting help in therapy eventually changed my entire life,
and it changed what I wanted to do with my life.
You know, the particular theme of o c D that
I have is kind of stigmatized and a lot of

(34:28):
people don't understand it. So I wanted to be that
person that can help others in the same way that
I was helped, because it honestly saved my life, Like
I do not know that I would be here if
I didn't access help. Wow, that is I mean. I'm
just doing a side note. We need to do a
whole episode on o c D because we have to.
We we got to do it. So let's let's set

(34:50):
that up, Catherine. Um. But let's get back since we
since we have now set it in stone, we're going
to do an Um. You are a therapist and your
job is into only accept patients with a specific, you
know problem like you have. Anybody comes in and whoever
walks through that door tells you what they're going through,
and it's your job to really identify it. So you've probably,

(35:10):
I would assume, have seen everything from A to Z
across the spectrum. Yeah, I've seemed quite a few things,
for sure. So what in your mind makes anxiety kind
of different or specific or what about anxiety really pops
out to you versus everything else that people have come
to you with and all the other mental illnesses and

(35:31):
mental health disorders. So this is such a good question
and it's complex, but I'm going to break it down
kind of in specific parts. So anxiety is something that
everybody experiences to some degree, Like we all have a
little bit of anxiety because essentially our brains are wired
in that way. You know you hear about like think
back to Caveman times when that fight flight or freeze

(35:53):
kicked in and it would actually save people. So anxiety
does have kind of an evolutionary like vale you or
benefit because it can help keep us alive kind of
like earlier you said mandatory anxiety. You know, sometimes we
do feel anxious and there is danger in front of us.
So we all experience anxiety to some degree, but people

(36:15):
with diagnosable anxiety disorders, the anxiety is excessive, like the
amount of time spent worrying about something is excessive, and
it impairs their functioning. So you might see like somebody
getting a lack of sleep, Um, they might be. I mean,
there are so many different things like rapid heart rates,

(36:38):
tension like you were talking about Meg, and these things
are persistent. It's not just a mild anxiety that passes.
It really impairs someone's functioning. And with anxiety, essentially, what
it is is our brain is trying to alert us
of danger. However, often with anxiety disorder, danger actually isn't present,

(37:02):
so our brain is firing that like fight flight or
freeze response when danger isn't in front of us. We're
overestimating danger that's in front of us. That makes so
much sense like that, Like honestly, like, because like you mentioned,
on one hand, you have something, let's say on the
smallest level, where like I'll make a joke to my

(37:24):
roommate and if he doesn't laugh at that joke, I
will now continue that idea of he just didn't think
a joke was funny too, Well, he doesn't think I'm funny,
And if he doesn't think I'm funny, then he probably
doesn't like me that much. If he doesn't like me
that much, then why is he hanging out with me?
Why is he living in my house? Is it because
of this? Is because of that? Doesn't because of this?
And it just like rapid fires up and Meg's pointing
at her face because she's just like one it. We're

(37:46):
just two peas in a pot. At this point, other
than when my therapist had brought it up to me,
I had never thought about anxiety being in the mental
health issue. Portion of it is making something up that
isn't actually or exaggerating something to the point where it's
not actually that bad. That's exactly it, and what you
and Meg have talked about. It's called catastrophizing, which essentially means,

(38:10):
like our brains, especially when we're anxious, take us to
the worst possible case scenario when there's not really evidence
that that's going to happen, you know, like, oh my gosh,
she doesn't think I'm funny like you were saying. Now
he wants to move out. Now he hates me. Our
brain just keeps going there, and we also feed into
that cycle of anxiety, and that's how those thoughts continue

(38:32):
to grow. Catastrophizing is our word. That's a tongue twist
right there. I had to think about how to say
that that in anticipatory. Catastrophizing an anticipatory. So I've heard
people say anxiety attack. I've heard people say panic attack.
Is there a difference between the two, And if there
is a difference between the two, how do you know

(38:53):
which one it is? Because I don't even know if
there is a difference. That's such a good question. So
people often use panic attack and anxiety attack interchangeably, But
there's not really such thing as an anxiety attack. When
people say that, I'm not sure exactly what it is
that they mean. Do you mean that you are experiencing
racing thoughts? Are you feeling really anxious in the present moment?

(39:16):
Like that is kind of up to like what the
person is experiencing, Whereas a panic attack is something that
as therapists like that is panic disorder is something that
can be diagnosed, and panic disorder is that's when someone
has multiple panic attacks. So that's kind of taking it
a step further, but a panic attack is really a
sudden kind of you get a sudden surge of intense

(39:40):
fear and discomfort that is accompanied by certain symptoms. Like
so for a panic attack to be diagnosable, there you
have to meet I think it's four or five different
symptoms off of a big list, and that includes things
like de realization another therapist word that you can google,
but that's what you we're describing meg essentially, like when

(40:02):
you're on set and kind of everything like feels a
little bit out of focus, and it feels like there's
kind of like a bubble between you and other people.
That is the realization. Or you might feel like you
are dying. Your heart is racing, it feels like someone's
sitting on your chest and you think I'm about to die.
You might think, you know, obviously this is not necessarily

(40:25):
politically correct, but you might feel like you're going crazy
quote unquote, or like you're gonna snap all of a sudden,
And that's what makes up a panic attack. It's a
sudden surge of symptoms that will probably peak within a
few minutes, whereas anxiety might be something that you experience
like throughout a period of time. It might be kind
of like an underlying anxiety that you feel all of

(40:48):
the time. A panic attack, you will know it's kind
of that like sudden onset of symptoms. So so then
not to have therapy while we're on this podcast, but
that's okay. So then when you have anxiety, right and
you're spiraling, like we had mentioned this, like, well, we'll
use Dylan as an example because he's my best friend.
He and I know that he loves me no matter what,

(41:09):
but like you have that thought of like he didn't
think the jokes one, he didn't think I was funny,
and this is dad, And now if he doesn't like me,
then maybe nobody likes me. If nobody likes me, then
I don't really have value. And you have this moment
and that thought process can happen like you, like you'd
kind of mentioned, like it could be a two minute
you could go through the full whole thing in a
thirty second span, really set let it sit, and then
have this darkness. Is that not considered a panic attack

(41:32):
or is that a different type of panic attack or
is that something completely other? Realm, it sounds like an
anxiety spiral, but it would really depend on what the symptoms, like,
what the symptoms are that the person is experiencing. So
if that's accompanied by de realization, a rasing heart, feeling
like you're going to die, it could be a panic attack.

(41:52):
So anxiety can lead to a panic attack. We can
be anxious about something and then we go into a
full blown panic attack, So you can have both. This
is so import This is honestly, I like, I'm glad
that people are listening to this, but this is really
just kind of me time I'm enjoying because that's this
is so informative, Like you learned so much where you

(42:13):
can be this is firsthand. I go to therapy every
other week, and there's some things that you'll still be
able to learn, Like you're never done learning, you know
you're stop learning. Um, okay, so let's let's now that
we've gone through that. I'm glad that we talked that out.
I feel like, when I'm not doing the work, I'm
going to continue using that term because that's me like
going to therapy, writing down like my random moments that

(42:36):
I have that I share with my therapist later, or
you know, asking myself the questions and doing all the
exercises that my therapist has taught me to do. I
feel like when I'm not doing those things, I can
tell because the same negative thoughts kind of keep coming back.
It's like it's kind of like a spend cycle of
these negative thoughts that are just back to back to
back to back. Um, why does it happen? And what

(42:56):
can we do? I love this question. I wish I
could draw it because there's kind of like an anxious cycle.
But I'll explain it to the best of my ability. So,
with anxiety, like I said earlier, the brain is trying
to alert us of possible danger or risk, but it
glitches sometimes. So your brain is coming up with all
of these what ifs, what if this happens, what if

(43:18):
that happens? Because it's ultimately trying to protect you. It's
just on overdrive. It's overprotective, so it feeds you with
those like quote unquote negative thoughts. A little piece of
information is thoughts actually aren't positive or negative, and they're
not good or bad. They're just thoughts. So that's something
a lot of people think, Oh, I have such negative

(43:40):
thoughts or I have all of these bad thoughts. You're
just having thoughts. So the brain feeds you with those
thoughts and it makes you really anxious. We tend to
feed into that cycle, and that's what exacerbates those thoughts
and it continues to play them on loop. So what
I mean is, if you have this thought he didn't laugh,

(44:01):
he must not think I'm funny, and it makes you anxious,
you are probably doing something about that thought. You're probably
ruminating to some degree, which means you are continuously thinking
about that thought. Wait, does he really think I'm funny?
What if he doesn't? What would that mean for me? Like,
you are engaging with it, and that engagement keeps those

(44:21):
thoughts going. It fuels that cycle. I'm not even I'm
not even engaging. I'm marrying that ship. I'm like having
four kids with its yes, exactly. So we pay so
much attention to these anxious thoughts, and when we do that,
we're telling our brains, yes, this actually is dangerous. Pay

(44:42):
attention to this when it's not. So we continue to
get more of those thoughts. And the work is to
just let the thoughts that pop in be there, let
them loop if they will. We don't need to engage
with them. We don't need to pay attention to them.
And that's mindfulness work, and that's why a lot of
I do with clients is mindfulness skills training. You let

(45:03):
thoughts be there, you don't fight with them, because when
we fight with thoughts and feelings, they stick around. I
don't know if you've ever noticed, but when you're anxious
and you start to fight with it, oh my god,
why am I anxious? This is awful. You're going to
be more anxious. I love that you brought that up. Yeah,
the work is to sit with it and to tolerate it.
And I always tell clients like, I cannot get rid
of your anxiety, but I can teach you tools to

(45:26):
better manage your anxiety and it's not going to impact
your life as much. So thoughts and feelings, Yeah, we
want to sit with them, and we get to choose
is this helpful or not? To engage with those anxious
thoughts that y'all are getting not helpful to pay attention to.
So I'm really glad that you brought that up, mainly
because before I started actually doing the work, I was

(45:48):
so big on fighting my thoughts and like I mentioned
with Meg, like you shouldn't you get to travel around
the world and be on stage and do what you love.
Like you don't. You are ungrateful if you have these
thoughts and you don't get to really sit with them.
Um and then once you learn you sit with them
and you're like, oh, this is like Oh that's like
you can name them if you want. Oh that's Todd.

(46:10):
Todd is just chilling for a bit, even a second.
He just needs to come and say what's up. Those
thoughts are so when they're when they're just kind of
those here and their thoughts, you know, like, oh, this
person didn't think that joke was funny, and it's like
some people don't think things are funny. I don't think
a lot of things are funny. So we'll just kind
of let him chill, and when he goes, he'll go.
I would like to step before we kind of come

(46:31):
out of it and we talk a little bit more positively.
I do want to talk about because it's a very
real thing. Let's call him the scary thoughts, the more
taboo thoughts that we don't like. I don't even like
saying some of the thoughts that I've had, and I
know you've referred to them as taboo thoughts before. Um,
what about those you know what? Like, honestly, this is

(46:51):
a this is me asking as extra free therapy. This
is such a great question. Every single person on this
planet has intrusive to us. Okay, people with o c
D get an influx of intrusive thoughts like rapidly that
are often of a taboo nature. And that's what differentiates
o c D from generalized anxiety disorder, because with generalized

(47:15):
anxiety people get intrusive thoughts as well, but it's more
about real life concerns finances and upcoming performance work friendships,
Whereas people with o c D have intrusive thoughts that
pop in that are very disturbing and very irrational. They're unrealistic,

(47:35):
and as a therapist, like what I would say is
their ego tos tonic, which means they're so opposite to
what the person like knows of themselves. So for me,
for instance, when I was nineteen, I started getting unwanted,
sexual intrusive thoughts about the last people I would ever
want to have those thoughts about. It was so horrifying

(47:55):
and uncomfortable, and then I performed compulsions to try to
figure out I was having these thoughts and to prevent
like something bad from happening because they were so scary
to me. So yeah, we all have the occasional like
sexual intrusive thought or harm intrusive thought, like what if
I just threw myself in front of the subway, But
for people with o c D, it's on loop all

(48:16):
day long. Imagine that horrible thought, like you know, what
if I just stabbed my partner in her sleep? People
with O c D experience that NonStop popping in, popping in,
popping in. So that's kind of where the more like
taboo intrusive thoughts would become a diagnosis. We need to
have a whole episode about o c D tomorrow, like
we like we got a sense, Katherine, because there's so

(48:38):
much to unpack, and I don't want to at all
pass that off and and kind of keep moving forward.
So I do want to preface this change of subjects
as a weird absolutely coming back to that, because we
need to figure out there's a whole lot to unpack.
And I think, like you had mentioned, you had said
that that's an O c D thought, and in my mind,
like in my wildly uneducated, in this realm mind, I

(49:01):
thought O c D was just like keeping your room
clean and like you know, like that's like that's kind
of the stigma around it. Uh. And so absolutely are
having another episode UM with you. If you will have
us UM about this exact thing, we'll get a little
more positive um. And that positivity is that, like I
am glad that therapy is now starting to become more

(49:22):
of a kind of cool not cool thing, but like
a very like normal thing. People are like, oh, yeah,
I got therapy, and nobody's like, oh are you good.
Like people are just like, oh I got therapy. There like,
oh that's sick. I'm glad you're doing that. I could
probably use that. That's really like the biggest response to
anybody from anybody who I talked to who doesn't go
to therapy. The most common response now, and I love

(49:42):
it is like people are like, oh, dope, I should
probably go to therapy, and then I respond back with like,
you absolutely should. Everybody should. It's great. I think Channing
Tatum was like the first one who was like, yeah,
go to therapy. Everybody should go to therapy. I remember
watching this to this Twitter video. I think I've actually
brought it up on this show before. But I'm glad
that it's being more widely accepted. But I think now

(50:04):
you're at this new because before it was like this
big stigma right of like if you go to therapy
you're weak, or if you go to therapy you're psychotic,
or or whatever have you. Now there's this kind of
new stigma. I'm very fortunate that my therapist didn't believe
that I need to take medications to kind of handle
my mental health issues. But there are a lot of

(50:24):
people who do get prescribed medications for mental health, and
there's also a lot of people and there's a huge
stigma around that medication, whether you actually need it, whether
it's good for you, whether it's bad for you. Um,
can you speak to that and your thoughts on on
maybe why it is and if you think that there
should be a stigma? Oh yeah, people are so misinformed

(50:45):
about medication, and I think a lot of it comes
from like the stigma surrounding mental health. And when people
think about taking medication, one of the most common things
I hear is it's weak. You don't need it. You
should just be able to do the work and get through.
It's like it's a weakness. And the reality is that

(51:05):
people have brains that are wired differently. You know, me
with O c D, my brain is wired very differently
than someone without O c D, which means I need
medication to get my brain kind of to a more
quote unquote normal level. And it's interesting because we would
never look at someone who has cancer who's getting chemotherapy
and say you're weak, you don't need that, or somebody

(51:28):
who is diabetic and takes insulin. We don't do that,
but we do that with psychiatric medication. And that's because
of stigma. And I also think that it's like when
people say, oh, it's weak, or oh you don't need it,
it's just the easy way out. It comes from people
being misinformed because taking medication is often a very complex

(51:50):
and difficult decision for people. Medication can affect your sex life.
Like I often say to clients, you might have to
choose between your sex life or your sanity, and that's
really difficult, and it can impact I mean, you might
have side effects from the medication, so it's not an
easy decision to make. In addition to like, it is

(52:10):
still stigmatized sadly, which just it's awful because it can
save lives. You know what, saved my life. It helps
so many of my clients, and I hope that we
can continue to destigmatize it because it's very necessary for
a lot of people. M I love that. I mean,
I'm gonna go back to what one of my one
of my really good friends are on who's been on

(52:32):
this show says, and he's like, look, when your mouth hurts,
you go to the dentist. He tells you that your
wisdom teeth coming in. He takes the wisdom teeth out,
and then he says, hey, you gotta take this vicating
or else your mouth is really going to hurt and
you don't beat an eye. Right. But then when you
go when you're having mental health issues, what you're supposed
to do is you go to a doctor who can
help you with that, right the same way that you
go to a doctor for your arms broken or you're

(52:53):
getting your wisdom teeth out, and then they'll tell you
what you gotta do. And and it is it is
pretty interesting that we mindlessly say yes to everything else,
but when it comes to our own brains, we're pretty
picky on that. Yeah, yeah, it's it's quite interesting. But
I do want to as I always like to do
finish it on a very high note um and have
somebody Meg and I have both attested to when you

(53:15):
do the work and you and you're open about it
and you can talk about it and you can deal
with it regularly, you let those thoughts sit with you,
it does get better. And so having two people who
aren't therapists say it, I would love to also have
you jump in on your first hand experience of helping
people who get it and the amount of people who
come in and it gets better versus the amount of
people who and I can't imagine come into therapy do

(53:38):
all of the work and it gets somehow worse. You know,
I think I think it's more likely that it gets
much better. That's exactly it. And I love that you
say do the work because that is the exact pace
that I use with my clients. You have to do
the work to get better, so you're on top of that.
And if a client is doing the work, they more
often than not get better. There are going to be

(53:59):
clients who have stay your brains where they have more
severe cases, and it might not be as simple as
just do the work. You know, sometimes certain therapies don't
work on specific people. But if you can access therapy,
I want to preface that because I know that some
people can't. If you can access therapy and you do
the work, it can get I mean, night and day.

(54:20):
I see so many of my clients and I witnessed
in my own therapy journey. If you do the work,
your life can significantly change and you can live a
really meaningful, beautiful life. With anxiety or any other mental
health condition. There is hope. It is not hopeless. And
you are not weird. You are not crazy. You are

(54:40):
just a human being who has a brain, and sometimes
that means we struggle. I love that. That's an incredible
place to take a break. But when we come back,
Meg's coming back in with us, and we're gonna be
talking about this mandatory anxiety that you're telling us about.
So don't go anywhere. We are back. This is let's
get into it, and we are talking about mandatory anxiety.

(55:03):
I got Meg, I got allegro We are here, so
you had actually brought it up allegra Um in our
segment where you said mandatory anxiety. Our brains are actually
wired to have anxiety. To make sure, my therapist says
risk analysis, that's what our brains do. They do risk
analysis across the board. Like it's always like, okay, if
I jump off, if you're on a diving board and
you're going into a pool, you okay, the pool is

(55:24):
deep enough, right, Okay, the pools deep enough, and you
do this in like a micro second or whatever, like
this is ready to go. We can do this. Whereas
if you're looking down and you see rocks, uh, most
of the time, I'd like to imagine a predominant amount
of the time you're looking down, you're like, okay, don't
do that. That's bad idea. Risk analysis, big risk, big risk.
It seems like today's world is designed for everybody to

(55:48):
get anxious. I mean, you have media everywhere. You have
everything on level ten saturation in the in the sense
of like how important and big and must know everything is.
You got dooming gloom news stories, you have clickbait on
social media, everything about the world ending. It's absolute sensory overload.

(56:09):
How do we balance ourselves? That's a good question. I
think that there are so many ways to answer this.
But two things that I always talk to clients about
are like sitting with our feelings but not necessarily letting
our feelings make decisions for us. So letting it be
okay that you're anxious, but moving towards your values. So

(56:30):
living a very values based life even if you have anxiety,
because anxiety can often keep us from living the life
that we want. It can impact our decision making, our relationships,
I mean really anything. So the work is okay. If
I'm feeling anxious, I'm gonna sit with it. I'm going
to tolerate it, but I'm still going to live the

(56:51):
life that i want to live. Values based living is
so so big with anxiety disorders. Wow, that's a that's
such an interesting way to look at it. It reminds
me of what you had said in our segment before
about like living with it, like letting those thoughts sit
and be like, oh, yeah, hey, this is my friend anxiety.
He's just gonna hang out for Bai'll probably leaven a
little bit later, just like let him. You know. It's

(57:14):
it's really to me like that visualization has been just
it's so clear and it's so helpful to me to
really kind of put it almost putting a face on
it and being like, hey, this is anxiety. You can
call him ang for sure. I don't know, and uh,
and and it's gonna live here for a little bit,
or it's gonna stay over sometimes he sleeps over. At

(57:34):
the end of the day, he always leaves, and he
always You're always fine afterwards. Flipping that around, though, having anxiety,
living with anxiety, it sucks a lot of the time,
But then there's also like some pretty good positives, Like
I think for me, like I think that having that
anxiety of of always wondering what other people are thinking,
it does help my compassion a lot. It makes me

(57:54):
a very empathetic person. I think that it really helps
me cater to the needs of people who are very
important to me. I was raised with the golden rule
of treat others how you want to be treated. And
because my brain overthinks things, and I would wish people
would consistently give me assurance. I give other people assurance.
And I've been told that that's something that's very very

(58:15):
positive about me or helpful in my relationships and my
friendships and my daily dealings. Meg, what about you? What
what about your anxiety? Have you either identified or made
a positive to you? Um, I totally agree with you.
I think you know, really putting others. First, it's help
my like empathy a lot, going back to the like

(58:37):
just letting anxiety just kind of like sit there. I
feel like days where I get a lot of sleep,
I can really I mean I feel like getting a
lot of sleep for anything, for anyone, like no matter
what you're going through, is definitely really helpful. And I
also know that mental disorders can also, like you know,
cause lack of sleep, but getting as much sleep as

(58:57):
possible at least just rest. Like I noticed those days
because some days and will come knocking at my door
and I'll be like, by like leave and then I'm like, yo,
that was easy, Like I just I like kicked him,
like let's go. And then some days I it's harder
for me. And I noticed those days are when I'm
really tired because my body is kind of at like

(59:19):
a low level already, so then when ang comes knocking,
I don't have the defense mechanism to be like you
like get out. And then also when I'm on social
media a lot too, I think, right that definitely doesn't help.
Social media is amazing, but like monitoring it is definitely
really helpful. But um yeah, I think it's helped my
empathy a lot, maybe stronger as a person for sure. Boom,

(59:42):
there you go, there you go. Yeah. I think in general,
like you had mentioned though, getting enough sleep is really
good to help. You've also talked about like breathing techniques,
You've talked about physically relaxing your muscles. There's so many ways.
And and I want to point out something that you
had said earlier, which was like exercise and go out
and exercise was one of your bits of advice. I
feel like there's some kind of actual science behind exercising

(01:00:05):
and and like either relaxing your thoughts or bringing happiness
in your body aleg Or do you haven't Is there
any like factual statistics or anything that like actually makes
exercising a great way to combat any mental illness, but
specifically like negative thoughts or anxiety. Yeah, So typically when
people are anxious, you kind of feel a little bit restless,

(01:00:26):
and you feel like there's a lot of tension, and
so physical exercise can kind of help alleviate some of that. Also,
when we exercise, it sends off endorphins, and those endorphins,
like those chemicals help us feel better essentially, like we
feel a little bit happier so that is kind of
like the science behind exercise would be the endorphins, possibly serotonin.

(01:00:49):
I'm not like an expert on this, but that would
be why people typically feel better after exercising. Look at that.
See you, guys, it's not just abs you're fighting for.
You're fighting for a mental health. Absolutely, mental abs. That's
what we're talking about. We're talking about mental abs right here, guys.
To fight off a you know, to fight off that's

(01:01:12):
gonna just live forever. Now his name is saying he's
kind of a shitty house guest, but he always he
always leaves if you give him the cold shoulder. So
as three people here who have been open about their
mental health issues UM and have been open, and we're
learning now what panic attacks actually are. Are there any

(01:01:33):
ways that you guys have learned um specifically for yourselves,
just in case there's a listener out there who hasn't
found their way to ward off a panic attack or
maybe even anxiety spiral, or even just dark thoughts in general.
Just any any practices you do to set your mind
at ease if you're having those cyclical thoughts. Very very
specific to me, I always listened to Bob Marley when

(01:01:55):
specifically waiting in vain, it's always cued up. Like sometimes
like my friends will like I'll be in the room
and I'll just hear the song in the distance and
I'm like, ah, like, you know, so it really helps.
I don't know why. It's just I mean, Bob Marley
is such a calming it you know, makes me feel
like I'm at the beach, and all of his songs

(01:02:18):
are almost like, you know, don't worry, everything's gonna work out,
like you're good. So just hearing those thoughts all the time,
it's just like, you know, helps me get through it
and it kind of prevents that. And also breathing. Um,
you know, it's very silly to say, but when you're
going through it, sometimes you forget to breathe. It's like
kind of like one of the simple things to do,

(01:02:38):
but you know, you don't realize that you're catching your
breath like if you it helps so much like when
people are like, yo, just breathe and you take like
a large inhale and exhale like it. Man does wonders.
I don't know why. This is a total side note. Um.
The Zoom audio quality was so bad that at first
I genuinely thought you said breathing like b R E

(01:03:02):
D I N G. And then in my mind I said,
there's no way she said breeding. She meant reading, like
reading a book. And then as you continue talking, I
heard I realized you said breathing, and I was like, oh,
so for the first half of your statement, I was
genuinely confused by what you do to stay to stay
just positive and happy. Yeah, just breed, just go for it.

(01:03:26):
Have a child, um allegra, what about you? And you
can also include things that you have um anything that
you either go through on a daily basis that you
help ward off your negative thoughts or your spirals, or
your attacks, or anything that you tell your clients. Yeah,
acceptance is a big word that I use with clients.
And acceptance doesn't mean that we like what we're experiencing.

(01:03:49):
It doesn't mean that we agree with what we're experiencing,
but it means that we are going to allow it.
So with panic attacks, anxiety, intrusive thoughts, excepted is huge.
Letting it happen, letting it be there, and existing with
it because typically when people are panicking, they start to
fight with it because it's so scary. They feel like

(01:04:11):
they're dying and not fighting with it exacerbates the panic attack.
Think of it kind of like if you're caught in
a riptide in the ocean. I'm not sure if that's
ever happened to you, but typically people yeah, and you
start to fight with it and it keeps pulling you under.
But when you just accept that you're in a riptide
and you kind of just surrender to the sea if
you're going to get out of it. So acceptance is huge,

(01:04:33):
acceptance of what it is that you're experiencing, and then
also staying in the present moment. Anxiety and panic often
want to bring us to the what if all of
those horrible catastrophic things in the future. I want my
clients to stay and the what is what actually is
happening right now? Yes, what is actually happening? You know,

(01:04:55):
you haven't lost your job right now. You haven't. Your
partner hasn't broken up with you. What is actually happening.
What is happening is your I don't know partner didn't
respond to your text. That's what actually happened. We don't
know anything about the future. So staying in the present
moment is really helpful. Wow, what if versus what is

(01:05:17):
that's wild? That's wild, that's a wild therapist jargon right there. Um,
we are very pro therapy, as i've I'm sure everybody
who listens to this podcast, UM can assume very pro
therapy here, and let's get into it. I'm very pro
therapy and all three of us have been in therapy,
and I think even though it's getting more common, I

(01:05:39):
want to continue just making it the most normal thing
in the world that people go to therapy. Uh. And
so I want to ask you, guys, one sentence, why
do you go to therapy? My answer is super easy,
and it's kind of the opposite of what the stigma
is is therapy makes me feel normal. It makes me
feel like I am normal, and that's so sick. Meg.

(01:06:00):
What about you? What is one reason that you go
to therapy that's so true? I agree with you. I
think just being able to talk to someone who is
just non biased, just there to help you and to
be there for you, because you know, sometimes you go
to your loved ones and they'll be like, oh, everything's fine.
You're like, you're lying to me because you're my mom,
you know what I mean. But these people they don't

(01:06:21):
know you. They're they're just helping you, and and they're
educated and they know exactly what they're talking about and
they know how to help you. And I think that's
so it makes me feel so comforted and like you said, normal,
You know, Alegor, why do you go to therapy and
why should other people go to therapy? And not just
so that you make more money. So my what I

(01:06:43):
really want to say is because I love my therapist, Laurie.
I'm also going to shout her out like literally my
favorite human. But why I actually go to therapy is
honestly to keep I mean, therapy saved my life. I
guess that's my sentence. Therapy save my life and it
continues to help me through every different stage job, my
mental health, and my life. So I will be in

(01:07:03):
therapy for the rest of my life. Yeah, down twice
a week. I love it. Go to therapy. If you're
listening to this and you haven't gone a therapy, go
to therapy. And if you're listening to this you have
gone to therapy, go to therapy. It's well, the guys,
thank you so much for coming on my podcast. It
really really means a lot um. We have one final
segment and it is called Not So Shameless Promo. It's

(01:07:25):
where you get to just say, you got to say
everything that you want people to know about you. You know,
I'll start. I got a movie coming out soon. It's
called Finding Ahna Amazing, and then you can just say
your social as you can do all of that stuff.
Um so Meg, take it away, tell us where we
can find you, tell us what's coming. Get us excited.
Oh man. Um, my Instagram is just Magdonally. My Twitter

(01:07:48):
is I Magdonnally, a Season five American Housewife is still airing,
um going strong. And yeah, I've been during this whole
entire year. I've been making music, so stay tuned for
more music on the way. Yeah, I think that's it.

(01:08:08):
There we go, Allegro. What you got for us? So
I am moving to New York in less than a
week and I'm going to start a practice there, which
I'm super excited about. And yeah, I'm so so excited
about it. And I see clients across the world, by
the way, like in other countries as well. So most
of my clients I see via telehealth. But I am

(01:08:30):
going to start a practice in New York too. You
can find me on Instagram at obsessively ever after, or
my website is just my first and last name allegro
Castings dot com. I love that. I love that y'all
are pros. You guys are pro promoters. You know you
can find me at alex ion O A I O
n oh. It's the best part about having a weird

(01:08:50):
last name. But more importantly than following me, make sure
you rate our podcast and subscribe. That is how we grow.
We've almost been recording this podcast, recording, not drop upping
for a year, and that's crazy to me. That is
amazing that we've been going at this for a whole
year now. And I'm so grateful that you've been on
this process with us. So make sure you subscribe, make
sure you rate our podcast you want, leave a nice

(01:09:12):
little leave, leave a nice little review for us as well.
But thank you so much for listening. I love you guys.
We'll talk to you next time feast. We really want
you to get the help you need, so if you
need help, please seek independent advice from a competent healthcare
or mental health professional. The views and opinions expressed in

(01:09:34):
this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or
individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the
opinions of I heart Media or its employees. This podcast
should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, counseling,
or therapy. Listening to the podcast does not established dr
patient relationship with hosts or guests of alex IONO, Let's
Get Into It or I heart Media. No guarantee is
given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made

(01:09:55):
on this podcast. Well, if that's a doozy