Open Marriages with Eli J. Finkel, Steve Hernandez, and Julia Loken

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Alex, and I have more than one partner.
Nor no all right, will be all right soever? No
be al alright, no Molly all right ever. I was

(00:24):
raised in a family that, you know, my mom my
dad were always together and it was always just kind
of like super monogamous and uh, and I kind of
picked up that same spirit. But when we were researching
this episode, UM, there's a lot of really cool ideas
that kind of came to my mind. The same way
that people might have a spouse or a sexual partner,
they might also have a best friend or a friend

(00:45):
they play video games with, or a friend that they
do certain activities with. And it started making me think
about kind of the purpose for people in your lives.
And that's why really was so excited to do this episode, UM,
expanding kind of what relationships are in what they mean. So,
while I have a girlfriend and I am a very
monogamous minded person, I was so excited to kind of

(01:07):
hear the reasoning and the um experience in life experience
behind people who have different types of relationships. UM. And
so this isn't really a story time because this is
something that I'm really here to learn with you guys.
Usually I have a real nice, long story about my
experience in the field, but today I'm gonna let my
guests do the talking. So this just got me thinking,

(01:31):
is one partner enough? And what's it like to actually
have more than one partner? What's up, y'all? It's Alex
i oo here, this is my podcast. Let's get into
it where we get into everything, especially things that I
have no experience on. And today we're talking about O
S O S. You're gonna hear that a lot in
today's episode. It stands for other significant others. Like I

(01:55):
said in my story, I don't have a lot of
experience in this. I'm actually really excited to learn more,
more and more about it. And I'm gonna be learning
from not one, not two, which is our normal number,
but three amazing guests. Uh and I want to introduce
you to them right now. First up, we have a
stand up comedian who's also the host of several podcasts,

(02:15):
including The Male Gaze and Who's Your God. He's also
been featured on Comedy Central and was a field correspondent
for I Love You America with Sarah Silverman. The one
and Only Steve Hernandez. What's up? Man, Hey all, that's
great to be here. Thanks for having you. Are fortunate
enough to actually have a real personal connection to another
one of our guests. She is a Los Angeles based

(02:37):
comedian host of What's Your Sign, a comedy astrology podcast.
She's also been featured in Nylon, Bustle, The New York Times,
Women's health magazine, Vogue, and Cosmopolitan. Julia Lokan, how are you?
I'm good? Thank you so much for having me. You
guys got a petty I mean combined. We're gonna get
into your relationship in general, but just pedigree alone. You

(02:59):
guys got just a full gamut of success, solid, solid credits. Uh.
And on top of those credits that you guys share,
we have one more guest with us. The author of
the best selling book The All Or Nothing Marriage, How
the Best Marriages Work, professor at Northwestern University, as well

(03:19):
as a social scientists studying romantic relationships. He's published over
a hundred fIF Geez, Louise, I'm looking at this. This
is crazy, how much how much work has been done
amongst my three guests. He's published over a hundred and
fifties scientific papers and as a contributor to the op
ed page of the New York Times. Eli Finkel, how

(03:39):
are you, Eli? I'm doing well. I'm excited to be here.
Not only am I intimidated, but I'm very excited to
to learn about about this topic about open relationships and
other significant others. First up, Steve and Julia, You guys
and myself are going to be talking about opening up
your first hand experience in relationships that I can't speak

(04:00):
on UH. And then we're gonna take a break and
we're gonna come back, and Eli, you and I are
going to be talking about the complications of UH and
the intricate I would say intricacies more than complications of
different types of relationships. And then, last, but not least,
we got we're talking love hacks and it's gonna be
all four of us and we're just gonna be figuring
out how the best relationships work. Well. Um, but before

(04:21):
we get into that, I have a question that I
ask all of my guests, and it's pretty simple question.
It is, what have you been doing this week to
improve yourself? Julia, you seem like you have an answer
for us. I do. I have lots of answers. I've
adopted like a real uh mantra for the year. Not
a resolution per se, but something that I'm constantly kind

(04:41):
of trying to do, which is systems not stories. So
I think I make up a lot of like negative
self talk stories that end up persisting problems instead of
solving them. So I'm trying to come up with like, Okay,
I haven't been posting enough on social media. So instead
of thinking like, oh, I'm bad at that, I'm going
to create a schedule for myself and say, like Monday,

(05:02):
I need to post this thing. Tuesday, I need to
do this. Um, I've been feeling bad physically, and so
I did yoga today. That's another one where I was like,
that's a system over a story, instead of making up
a story about how I'm a terrible person who doesn't
take care of themselves. My friend was teaching a yoga
class and I took that yoga class. I like that
systems over stories. That's a I've never even heard of

(05:24):
that before, but that makes so much sense as you
explained it. I love that. I love that, Uh, Steve,
you got something for us. Yeah, I've got a few things.
I think in the middle of this pandemic and everything,
especially it goes on longer and longer. I've been making
it a real habit to reach out when I start
to feel bad, when I start to feel anxious or depressed. So, uh,

(05:45):
not only have been I've been making phone calls to
my friends with especially I think as a as a man,
men don't typically do this kind of thing, but I
have been making phone calls. But twice this week I
met my friends out socially distanced over at the Silver
Lake Reservoir and we went for a two a walk.
But we're able to talk for half an hour and
then go, you know, on the two or three mile walk.

(06:06):
It takes about an hour. And you know, no matter
what anyone says, any kind of thing, just moving your
body and seeing a friend because we can't do that anymore.
It energizes you and makes you feel so good. And
if you're feeling hopeless or anxious or depressed even a
little bit, remembering that you're not in the Salona, that
people love you in this world. It's been. It's it's
it's changed the way I feel completely. Man. I love that,

(06:30):
especially because, like you mentioned in the pandemic, it's really taken. Um.
We've had episodes about it where anybody who has mental
illness who's already kind of known about it and has
been dealing with it, it's taken a hit and a
lot of people are also now realizing um kind of
the daily struggles. We just recorded an episode about about
anxiety and how some of anxiety is built into everybody

(06:51):
and some of it, especially in times like this, can
really flare up. And so I think that's a great
idea reaching out as huge. I started seeing a therapist
in the pandemic. It was the first time that I
decided to actually like reach out, reach out, and so
the fact that that was your answer makes me very
very happy. My friend, um Eli, how about you? What
are you been doing this week to improve yourself? Well,
the new academic term started this quarter and I'm teaching

(07:14):
my undergraduate course on relationships science, the field where you
use data to try to figure out what works and relationships.
And I've been studying this stuff for over twenty years now,
but I decided to do a significant overhaul on the course,
especially because it's the first time I've ever taught several
hundred people on zoom and it has been a blast.
I've been doing a lot more work than necessary, and

(07:36):
it's certainly paying off so far. I don't even know
if I fully understand what you just said. But we're
gonna unpack. We're gonna unpack all of it. Um Uh.
It sounds like taking a course on on how successful
relationships work. Probably is something that we should all do,
and that's why we're here today talking about it. Um,
we've got I'm just hyped today. We have such good energy.

(07:58):
So let's get straight into it. Steve and Julia, let's
get into talking. Eli. I'll be with you in just
a sex you can sit tight. First off, you guys
just got married. Congratulations, Thank you? How was? How was?
What's a wedding like in in pandemic mode? What it
would take me down? Take me down the road? Well,
it's a real uh. I think it's like most things

(08:20):
in in pandemic boat, it's a very much an exercise
and surrender and being being okay with what you can
and can't control in those kinds of things. Um, we
went to Vegas and we're going to try to have
a really small, intimate kind of family only ceremony in
person thing, you know, obviously taking into account everything that

(08:40):
was going on. Um. But as the numbers, particular here
in l A got worse and worse, it just became
apparent that that was not going to be an option. Um,
but we still wanted to get married in it felt
like a it's like a good way to kind of
wrap up a shitty year, and we wanted to be
married ads. So we decided to go to Vegas, which

(09:01):
I'm a big Vegas person, and having like, uh, not
a shotgun Vegas wedding, but some kind of like quicky
Vegas wedding is like, uh a thing that I thought
would be fun um. And it was very funny. It
was like I mean not it was very special and
romantic and sweet too, but it's just it was a
really surreal you know, being in Vegas during your pandemic.

(09:24):
I think you like I it just hit me on
a lot more levels than I was expecting because you're
seeing people. It was a weird thing to see people
still kind of out acting like it's not a pandemic
and all of the things that come with that. But
it was also a really great I think, like I said,
exercise and surrender of really being like that what's important
about this isn't all of the other things like we

(09:48):
wore Dodger jerseys and we got our rings when we
were there and all of these things that it's like
it was special because it was us getting married and
professing our love to each other and doing this thing.
It wasn't what we were wearing or any of those things.
So it was a real like put your money where
your mouth is kind of exercise for me. I think. Ah,
And how long have you guys been together? Exactly? Six

(10:12):
years here? Six years? Six years? And so was there
any part of you guys that I know you had
mentioned you wanted to wait. Seemed like of great time
to to make something good out of the year. But
was there any part of you guys that said, hey,
we should just wait until it's until pandemics over so
we can have the family and the party and the
and the whole nine. I mean, we're still going to

(10:33):
do that. That's that's the only reason. Julian her wedding dress,
she has like a nice wedding dress and everything. We're
still going to do that, God willing at in New
Year's Eve next year. Everyone will be okay. By then,
it'll be safe. But yeah, so we did it because
I just I didn't want to call this. We only
got engaged in early November. I just I didn't want

(10:54):
to call her fiance. For a whole year we lived
together already. She's been my wife in my heart for
a while now, so it's just felt silly to me.
I was like, I'm not gonna I was a little
cautious because I felt bad about going to Vegas. But
we went. We spent the night in a hotel and
then our appointment was at twelve thirty pm, and then

(11:14):
we got the heck out of Vegas. So I think
there was just that thing. It was funny because we're like,
let's go, let's do what. I wanted this to be official,
and we did it. And then when we get to
this little white chapel and this uh, super sweet, hilarious
little Filipino woman in a glittery like bow tie was
marrying us. And then she she was really great because
she but she was rushing us too. She's like all right, now,

(11:35):
walked down the aisle and she ran up front and
press play on the CD player and the song played,
and then she's like say something sweet to her, say
it from your heart. And then I look into Julia's
face and as fun as this, and I was like,
this is just to make it official, but the real
weddings next year. When I looked in her face, I
was I was like, surprised at how moved I was.
I was like, okay, the real weddings next year. But

(11:56):
also I can't believe this. We're really getting married and
then absolutely nobody in the world that I would rather
be partnered with them, this perfect woman right here. So
I was surprised at how how much emotion and how
much is still right there and that thing that we
want to do to be fun and to make it
official with paperwork, but I was surprised at how swelled

(12:17):
I was with emotion. She was like, speak from your
heart and you gotta believe me, Alex, I've got like
the sickest like of I was already written in my head,
but so I didn't want to waste it in Vegas.
So I was just like mm, I just said like
very simple things, but also looking to joy his face,
I was like, I'm so happy that we're here right
now doing this because I'm so excited to be partnered

(12:40):
up with them. My my heart is absolutely just overflowing
right now. And I said, I'm actually so glad you
guys said that too, because and I don't and I
and I really hope that nothing that I say is
taken for anything other than me really being excited about
learning about other types of relationships. But I'm so glad
that you started with that because your relationship isn't uh

(13:06):
is not necessarily the I don't. I don't even know
like a traditional relation. I don't know how, but maybe
it's more traditional. We're gonna learn. But um, I want
to get this right, Steve. You are open and Julia
is not open. Is that correct? Yeah? I would say
that I identify as non monogamous, polyamorous, and Julia at

(13:26):
this point does not, So yeah, I would say that's
fair to say. So I would love to to just
break that down and conventional that's the word I was
I was thinking of earlier. But I want to break
that down because I'm so glad that you started with
how how loving and incredible, even if it was in Vegas.
I'm so glad you talked about how rich your love
is because I think a common misconception, including a misconception

(13:50):
that I had for the longest time until I actually
made friends with somebody a few years back who was
in an open relationship and kind of schooled me a
little bit. A common misconception with an open relationship is
this whole like, well, they're not really. It's just they're
like into each other, but they're not that into each other,
but they don't want to not be with each other. Like.
There's a lot of misconceptions, and so I'm glad that
we're here um talking about and unwrapping it. Um. But first,

(14:12):
before we get into the nitty gritty of that, I'd
like to take it all the way back to kind
of the early stages of your guys relationship, Julia. On
your end, what was that conversation, Like, at what point
did you guys have the conversation of being polyamorous or
or monogamous? And you know, were you guys already in love?
Was it right at the beginning on the first date?

(14:33):
Walk me through that. Well, we're both um, stand up comedians,
and that means that we uh, I guess thankful. I
don't know, I don't know if thankfully it is the
right word, but I think I think thankfully. I mean
I don't think we could do it any other way. Um,
but I these are things that I knew about Steve
before we were in a relationship together, because you talk
about yourself in your material, so I was aware that

(14:55):
he had been in previous, um, non monogamous relationships, and
when we got together, it wasn't necessarily like an explicit
conversation that we had, but I do feel like it
was something that I knew was part of him and
part of his baggage so to speak, that was coming
with or like just part of who he is, and
that that was something that would likely come up and

(15:16):
then um, but it wasn't, uh, you know. I feel
like it was more of a thing of like, yes,
that's something that I'm aware of, will kind of cross
that bridge when we get to it, because I think, uh,
it wasn't something that was happening when we were first together,
but as obviously we've been together longer, there's been just different,

(15:39):
I think, different conversations about it at different points, sometimes
around like is this something that you um can be
okay with? Is kind of the I guess the main
question that would come up at different points as we
got further along in our relationship. So the thing that
I'm really interested in earning about especially with you. I,

(16:02):
Like I mentioned, I have made friends with people who
are in open relationships, but I've never made friends with
somebody who's in a I guess partially open relationship. I
don't know if that's the proper term for it. Can
you talk about your choice to be partially open and
why that was still important to you to remain monogamous
even though you were entering this relationship. It's something for

(16:23):
me that's just not a thing right now. I can't
say how I'm going to feel, you know, further down
the line. And I think that's kind of my feeling
about the whole thing in general, is more just like
it's not really an issue for me, not not the
practice in and of itself, but I mean the the
to me. I don't I'm not like struggling with monogamy

(16:45):
or anything. I don't. I don't necessarily think that that's
always going to be the case or whatever, but I mean,
especially literally right now, in the pandemic and whatnot, Like
I'm not I'm certainly certainly not open, but I think
it's less. I think it's more just like a to
each their own kind of thing, So it's not necessarily

(17:08):
a decided I am monogamous. He is not kind of thing.
It's more just like, if this is what you need
to do, this is what you do, I don't need
to do that at the time. There may again, like
I said, there may come a time in the future
when I when I would like to, And at that point,
I'm going to be really grateful that I'm with a
partner who is open to those ideas and having those discussions,

(17:30):
because I think that that more than anything, I think
being able to talk about it and being able to
hold the idea of evaluating is this working for me
versus these are the ways that this is supposed to go.
Um is the most important thing I think for anybody,
whether you're in a monogamous relationship or a non monogamous relationship, whatever,

(17:52):
whatever kind of even casual dating sort of thing, if
if the core thing for all of those things is
figuring out what actually works for you and makes you
feel happy and fulfilled and like you are showing up
in the most hole and complete kind of way. Oh man,
this is the thing, is like I really have since
you guys started speaking on your relationship, I'm like, wow, again,

(18:14):
I think it's common misconceptions by by monogamous people. They
ask questions that are probably very very annoying to be asked,
and they and they um, and they view things in
a different way where it's I think it's very label
based and it's like, well, if you're in a relationship,
then it means this and it has to mean that.
And what you mentioned is like, look, at the end
of the day, you're with somebody who's just so open

(18:34):
minded that says, hey, if your heart desires something and
you need to follow your heart, then like you go
after it. Steve, I want to switch it over to
you a little bit. I have not heard the your comedy, UM,
your comedy routines that involve talking about your maybe your
reasoning behind being polyamorous. But can you talk me through

(18:55):
kind of what led you to that um that answer
that was something at you that you desired. Um, I
think it's something I got into with my ex. I've
been doing this for about fifteen years and I was
married previously, we were open. That wasn't the reason why
we ended. We ended because I started doing comedy, which
is a terrible life. I wouldn't I wouldn't put it

(19:17):
on anybody I really do. I feel bad about it
with my ex wife that I started comedy after we
got married, and it was really like the worst thing
you could put on someone but her. Her and I
were open as well. Uh we stumbled into it. Uh um,
you know, we stumbled into it. We started doing all
the other things. And then when I was married, I
was like a regular kind of anybody who would identify

(19:38):
as polyamorous. All the kind of things you've heard are
are like the scummy jokes or whatever. I was like
the guy who was trying to, like ten years ago,
fifteen years ago, I was trying to talk everyone into it,
like this is like the best lifestyle for everyone. Everyone
needs to think this way. It is like that. I
now understand that that's absolutely not the case, and and

(19:59):
that my how I define it as constantly evolving as well.
I really love relationships and I really love people, and
to me, ultimately, I want each relationship to be what
it what it can be, and if that includes physicalness,
that's okay. If it's a romantic relationship without touching, I
would like it to be that kind of a thing too.

(20:20):
I understand most people have a hard time just finding
one partner so I know how greedy it looks for
me to say I want like more than this perfect person.
I mean, people would be like you, piece of ship
you got, Julie, You've got the perfect person, and you
still want more, And it's like I don't. I mean, yes,
absolutely that's the case. I want the most out of life,

(20:42):
and I want all my relationships to be authentically what
both people want them to be. All makes sense, I
mean I think that's and and that's why I want
to walk into this next question kind of as if
not as a curiosity, but you the way that you
just explained it. Um, I think of a pretty common
question that would be asked is like, isn't isn't an

(21:04):
open relationship just basically like free pass to cheat? But
the way that you explained it, it kind of feels
a lot more ethical then then then the free pass
the cheat type of things. So can you explain to
me how how you differentiated that and knowing like you mentioned,
there's a lot of like people who kind of mask
an open relationship with just not necessarily being able to

(21:26):
be faithful to one person and so they just kind
of go off. Can you explain to me the difference
between the two of those things. Well, yeah, I can't.
I can only tell you about my own journey. And
there was a time when I was married previously, I
remember like looking for people to hook up with. UM.
I don't really do that anymore. It's become more of

(21:48):
a philosophical thing for me. I very much want to
honor our relationship. UM. I do know. Sometimes I di
did somebody last year for about ten months, three months
for the pandemic, and then kind of that seeped into
the pandemic. We ended up having to end it because
we just couldn't really see each other that much too.
It got But when I was dating that person, uh,

(22:11):
with Julia, I would tell her, you know, I'm gonna
see this person this day, or I'm gonna go call
her in the other room. And Julia would be okay
with it sometimes and sometimes she you could tell that
it bothered her. And so for me, I I know
understand why it bothers her, because I think society and
how we view romance has put so much weight on

(22:33):
the romantic relationship that she's bound to think that I'm
not enough for this person. So I understand that. UM,
And those times I would come back and we would
talk for a couple of hours or an hour, and
then she would be okay and so um to me,
I want to live the fullest life I can live.
I I want Julia to be happy, but I do

(22:54):
know what she feels hurt and stuff like that that
it's based on stuff that I don't believe, and I
don't think she really leaves. And I mean, the newest
thing for me in the past year or two is
I really want the people that I date or sleep
with to be happy and whole too. There's been a
lot of people that will agree to something like this,
but I know ultimately they don't understand what they're signing

(23:16):
up for that they end up falling in love, they
end up wanting this other thing. And so the older
I get, the longer I do it, the more I
understand to ethically do this where everybody involved is gonna
be happy and their expectations are gonna be mad. I
think that it becomes a more rare and more rare opportunity.
But I'm so glad the foundation of this is laid

(23:38):
because I do believe I'm gonna be able to have
those two or three other people in my life in
the next twenty years where they're gonna be like different
kinds of soul mates, like great friends that I happen
to be able to have sex with and kiss sometimes.
But to me, it's all about intimacy and it's all
about being honest and open about all of those things,

(23:59):
so that nobody old deceived or taking advantage of. You
had mentioned that, you know, you had said sometimes you
call and if it's in the other room, you always
give it the heads up. Are there and this is
I'm bringing Julia. You're back. You're back in the conversation.
Thank you? Are there any you guys have specific rules?
I'm really I'm truly curious. Is it something that you
set ground rules ahead of time? Um? Was there anything specifically,

(24:22):
Julia that you said, Hey, I really want to know
these things. I don't want to know these things. What
are the kind of the ground rules? I think at
first I definitely had more of a like I don't
want to know kind of position. But the more that
things unfolded, the more I was like, well, I need
to know, like a little bit only for the sake

(24:44):
of I think it's like a protective thing for sure.
But then, um, you know, you talked about doing an
episode on anxiety. I think a lot of times your
mind can come up with way more complicated Uh. You know,
I'm a story mind, storyteller. That's why I need that
mantre for me. That it's easier to to have someone say, Okay,
I'm talking to this person. Uh, like you just some

(25:06):
some things I don't need to know, like details, but
like it's it's so funny. We're best friends too, so
even this last person for instance, which I would say
it's our our whole relationship. Maybe we had a donuss
don't tell thing, but we really didn't. We spend We're
both comics, so we spent so much time together. There
wasn't there's things here and there that I would do.
But this is the first person I would say that

(25:26):
I dated. We're together, and it felt so funny because
she's my best friend and we talked about everything all
the time, and so she was like, at first, I
don't wanna, I don't want to hear about any of this,
and I was like, okay, but you know, I'm sitting
here and I have a French I'm like, have a
different super thing that I'm excited about, or that I
have issues with our problems with and I'm like, I
can't believe I can't talk to my best friend about

(25:48):
this stuff. And so I think at some point I
did start that was something we talked about, and I
did start talking about it and maybe problems I was
having or issues or these things coming up. And I
do think that did calm you down a little bit, right, Yeah,
I think it helps because I think that's what I
mean where I'm like, I think in your mind, you
think it helps you to not know, And me for

(26:08):
me saying I don't want to know, um uh, I think,
like I said, is definitely a protective thing. But I
think also for me it was really important to try
my best to not have my own preconceptions or judgments
influence his experience with this other person too, because as
much as you know I have, I'm very aware that

(26:28):
even though we're literally talking about monogamy, there are these
same kinds of issues for relationships. In any kind of thing.
You could replace this with someone who has like a
is super into sports or whatever, like, there's always going
to be things that that are potential things for disconnection
or potential things for you to have problems with that

(26:49):
you that are bringing up personal triggers for you that
you project onto that other person. And I going into this,
I wanted to be very clear that, like, I'm going
to take responsibity for whatever comes up for me and
know that it's coming up because of these things, but
it is not a causal thing necessarily that like he
is doing this to me to hurt me, Like this

(27:12):
is what comes up for me is my fear of
abandonment when you go when you go and do something
without me, I get afraid that you're gonna leave me.
That doesn't mean that that thing isn't like that. I'm
not entitled to those feelings, but I'm able to understand
that I am. I am not feeling that because he's
doing that. I'm feeling that because I have that fear
inside of me, and that might come again. That's what

(27:32):
I mean and saying like for someone else, that same
fear of abandonment might come up when someone goes to
the gym too much or whatever. Like there's it's it
doesn't have to literally be seeing another person, but because
it is seeing another person, I do think it kind
of accelerates those things for you to to deal with them.
A little bit more quickly. Um, but sorry, I went

(27:54):
off on a tear. Uh. The like the knowing stuff.
I think it does put your mind at because then
you're just hearing again. You're you're allowing whatever whatever things
are coming up for you are kind of creating worst
case scenario sorts of things. So hearing about a person,
it reminds you that they're a person. It reminds you
that it's not like a boogeyman, uh, you know, like

(28:15):
evil some somewhat saboteur coming to destroy you and your
relationships and all of those kinds of things. So I
think that it's still a fine line and it's it's
it's up to you, the person on the receiving end
will say to kind of be making sure that you
are sifting through and saying, like, what's something that can

(28:37):
be a practical ask of Like I said at one point, like, hey,
could you do your best to like make these calls
when I'm not here because I feel like a creep
having a sit in the other rooms. Like you know,
I know that you're gonna do this, but could you
please that's like a practical ask versus like when you're
doing this, it's hurt, you know whatever, Like those are things,
what's what is okay to ask and what's not? Again,

(28:59):
like systems versus the story. There we go, systems versus
stories coming back. It's really it really is and and
and I hope this is taken as a compliment. It's
really cool hearing how like you guys are the most
stable relationship I think I've ever seen, and it and
it comes off of something that I think a lot

(29:20):
of people either view as as different or maybe you know,
all all different opinions, and it's and it's really cool
just seeing how something that um that is so different
than the way that I choose to express my love
is still so stable and so comfortable. And it reminds
me of my own relationships that I've had, and especially
the relationship I'm in now that is so focused on

(29:43):
making each other happy and also making ourselves happy. So
I think that's awesome. You've already expressed and this is
my last question before we take a break. Um, you've
already expressed kind of the ways that it can get
complicated or the anxieties about it, or um any of
the problems that can come up. But what ways is
as the relationship become better in this, in this partially
open relationship. I am so in love with her. It

(30:06):
makes me so like, I feel so blessed and so
happy that someone would allow me to be myself in
this way because because I don't you know, she she
called it baggage. Really, I know she didn't mean it
like that, but you know, going into it, this is
kind of just how I am. And I know this
is how I work best, and that I personally, uh

(30:26):
wouldn't feel comfortable with the idea of monogamy, even just philosophically.
It bothers me. So I love that she allows me
to intellectually express this stuff, and you know that I'm
able to go out like this, and I mean, it's
just I just don't think it's gonna I feel so
bad because she's all over my instagram. Alex you gotta
see this instagram, but she's all over it, and I

(30:48):
almost feel so bad because I'm so in love with her.
It's so obvious that I'm in love with her that
I almost don't want to see anyone else ever, because
I'm like, I gotta rub it in, I gotta rub
it in their face how much I love my wife,
and I like an asshole. I do feel so free
and able to come home and have this person is
my home base and that accepts me and knows me,

(31:09):
loves me unconditionally. To me, it is so freeing, and
I mean, I'm just I feel blessed. Yeah, I mean
I think that, like I said, there's nothing about it
philosophically that I disagree with. To me, my my hesitations
with with non monogamy open relationships is to me more
about efficiency and effectiveness, and I think that it's a

(31:32):
thing that's that Like you said, there's a there are complications,
there are things like that, and it's not so much
that I have no philosophical disagreements. It's more in the
practice being in a non monogamous relationship. It also is
held up a mirror in ways, like I've been saying,
where it's like, even if it's not in our relationship,
are there other areas of my life where I'm not

(31:54):
being open in a way that I could be? Am?
I am? I also like putting up barriers to connection
in other ways. Maybe that that can mean literally in relationships,
but also I think it's really forced me to um
not forced, but forced in a lot of ways to
uh like sped up. That's why I mean, I don't
mean it like aggressively for but like like accelerated things

(32:18):
to where I think, again, you can get mushier of like,
oh is this I could have I could have done
this like abandonment thing or self worth kind of thing.
I could have projected that onto any number of things
or and that's a problem that could have persisted for
a bunch of years. But because again we're like dealing
with it so immediately and so literally, I think it's
really made me kind of um have to show up

(32:41):
for myself in a lot of ways, and and um
that I'm really happy for and really grateful for. And
I'm grateful to have a partner who also like asks
that of me and and wants me to be the
fullest expression of who I am and the most kind
of like honest, authentic someone who's like growing and challenging
them selves and isn't going isn't going to let me

(33:01):
off not growing and and addressing things because it's for
it's because it's good, not not in a way because
it's like, oh you need to do this, but in
a way where it's like these are this is going
to help you as a person. I'm like, I'm literally like,
my heart is so warm right now. You guys are
really it's really I'm so grateful that you guys are

(33:23):
here just to want to expand my knowledge on this
situation or on this um on this topic. And also
just too, I think we need more love, Like we
need more love in the world right now, and so
getting to hear it from other people and like here
people profess their love for each other, it's just so
it's so amazing. Um, we're gonna take a quick break
when we come back, I'm gonna be speaking with Eli

(33:46):
about it's complicated, don't go anywhere. All right, we are back.
This is let's get into it. And I have the
one and only Eli Finkel, professor at Northwestern also the
author of the All or Nothing may Ridge. Eli. We
just you. You just got to listen to me speaking
with Um with Steve and Julia, and uh, it just

(34:07):
it just felt my I'm like, I'm so excited to
speak with you on on the actual kind of I
don't know scientific background of a relationship like that, but um,
how how common are our relationships like that outside of monogamy. Well,
if you're talking about non monogamous relationships in particular, I mean,

(34:27):
they certainly go back at least till biblical times, and certainly, uh,
you know, beyond that. Um, if you're talking about the
sort of non monogamous relationship that Steve and Julia have,
that's of the now, Um. The language that surrounds it
with authenticity and growth and living a full and honest
life like that. That's the language of America and the

(34:48):
twenty one century more than it is the language of
you know, King David. Yeah, and you and you talk
a lot about how right now it's a lot different
than the way it used to be. Society now tells
us that we fall in love and the person that
we choose has to be everything. It's got to be
the place you find happiness, the place you go on adventure,
is the place you have sex, you laugh, you're comforted,
you're having intellectual conversations with and spiritually compatible all of

(35:13):
these things, and that they should be just the one.
You know, everybody talks about the one, and they talk
about soul mate, and it's always a very singular term. Um.
But in your book All or Nothing Marriage, you talk
about how that idea, that concept is actually new, it's
very very new. But at the same time there are
there are other needs. So how can an OsO as

(35:36):
we as were will use that term again, um, make
your primary relationship better? Well, a relationships quality is determined
to a large extent by how much the needs and
expectations we bring to the relationship are met by this
one other person. And it means that there's you know,
a few different ways we can improve the relationship. UM.

(35:58):
One way is to do what relationships you know therapists
and scholars like me tend to tell people, which is
how do you have more meaningful connections, how do you
communicate better, how to have effective date nights. But another
strategy that that isn't really about sort of investing more
in the relationship, is figuring out the ways that this
one person isn't going to be able to satisfy every

(36:19):
single thing and stop relying on that one person to
do those things. And so this is the idea of
the other significant other or the OsO. There are many
ways that we can look to our broader social networks
for a range of different sorts of fulfillment. I don't
just me and romantic or sexual sorts of connections. You know,
we used to socialize in in same sex groups and

(36:39):
nobody ever said things like I want to marry you
because you're my best friend. It would have seemed ludicrous.
But these days we spend more and more time with
our one significant other. It comes at the expense of
time that we spend separate from that person, but with
other significant others, friends or or potentially romantic partners aside
from the primary one um. And you know, to the

(37:00):
degree that we can sort of spread the love around
a little bit and make sure that we're we're focusing
on our relationship in the ways that play to the
strengths of that relationship and finding ways to look elsewhere
when there might be a limitation or or a something
less than perfect fulfillment within the relationship. So based off
of that, and based off of also kind of what

(37:21):
Julia and Steve had said, I started kind of connecting things.
You know, Julia had mentioned the same way that somebody
goes to the gym so much, it can make somebody
feel like their time is being given somewhere else, or
that they're dedicated to something else. How do you differentiate
Or maybe there's not a differential like is is you know,
if I like to play video games every night with

(37:42):
my with my one homie that lives in on the
other side of the earth, and I have to play
it like it's it's how I get that out. Is
that considered an os O? Is that just a hobby?
That's because what I'm starting to realize is maybe before
this podcast, I thought when you're in an open relationship,
the only time that you're with other people is to
like have because it's a sexual thing. And I always
thought that, and I'm so wrong, like insanely wrong. And

(38:04):
I'm so happy that I've come to this episodes that
I can learn about the depths of open relationships. But
now that now that we're kind of talking about and
you say, sometimes it's people who just make you happy,
or it's doing something and committing to something else outside
of your relationship, how do you differentiate like an OsO
then from something like I got. I go to the

(38:25):
gym every day, and I have my workout partner that
I go and I work out with all the time.
I mean, I would define an OsO broadly, but there
are certainly subcategories and and a workout buddy is very
different from a sex buddy or a love buddy. UM.
The broader context here, there are three different types of
open relationships. UM. It sounds as if, if I've got
it correctly, that that Steve and Julia have one that

(38:47):
is asymmetric, so Steve is open and Julia is not.
But also what we might just call open relationship. That's
one type where the assumption is, look, you can, you're
allowed to, um, you know, have some other people on
the side, and the you know, people negotiate the contours
of that. There's a second type, which informally you could
call swinging, which is, um, we are with other people,
but only when we're both there. So that might be

(39:08):
something like orgies or perhaps uh, pretty sexual parties and
things like that. UM. And the third type is is polyamory.
And polyamory is a subcase of open relationships that that
really is about long term, emotionally intimate connections with more
than one partner. UM. By the way, it can easily
be that all three are equally emotionally intimate. Right. So

(39:30):
so the again, there's all these different variations. And I
agree with you completely that there are many sorts of
of reasons why people might want to open their relationship,
not least of which is to benefit their relationship. Um.
There are many deeply loving, intimate sorts of connections. I
get the sense that Steve and Julia have a relationship
like this, where where the the non monogamy that they've

(39:53):
sort of written into the relationship actually serves to strengthen
the relationship itself, among other goals. Um, and that is
indeed one of them. May your reasons why people might
want to do this. Some relationships can benefit from opening
them up, especially if people are compatible in lots of ways.
But one person, say, for example, has a strong a
stronger sex drive or or different sorts of sexual kinks

(40:14):
than somebody else does, which how often does that happen?
A lot? So? So getting straight into that, how would
a couple like, let's say you take a couple they
are not open at all? Um, how does that couple
know if an open relationship is one an option to
an option that will help them or hurt them and

(40:35):
overall just a good idea? Well overall. One of the
great perils of being human is that you can't know.
You cannot predict the future. And you know, I enjoyed
listening to to Julie and Steve process um how they
go about their consensual non monogamy, the Steve's openness in
the relationship, and it's it's um. They didn't talk about
it as something definitive. Julia raised the possibility that who knows,

(40:58):
this is what I'm doing for now, but for later.
You know, it's nice that I'll have opportunities available to me.
There won't be strict rules about these sorts of things
to me. A question that also comes to mind to
add on top of that is, let's say that there's
there is a problem like you had mentioned. Um, you know,
maybe one has more sex drive, one is always wanting
to try new things or or any of the anything

(41:18):
in a relationship. In my mind, I'm thinking if I
was in that situation, I would think, how do I
reignite the spark with this one person? But I think
there's also this second mindset that goes, maybe it's time
for me to find that that specific spark elsewhere, so
that this relationship doesn't have to carry the burden of
of those problems, you know what I mean? So, how

(41:40):
do you know how to differentiate, how to discern which
way to go? Well, you have two different situations. One
is where you start entirely monogamous and then have to
broach the conversation. That's a very delicate conversation to broach
because we have these very strict rules about the way
people are supposed to behave um, you know, in twenty
one century America, right, these rules differ across time, and

(42:01):
so it can be very, very hurtful to bring up
the topic. In a case like Steven Julia, they knew
from the start um what the contours of the relationship were,
and either option has risk. I mean I would I
would ask all of the people who think consensual not monogamy, like,
that's terrifying. Why would you do that? There's so much risk. Well,
I'll tell you what. It's not like commitment to permanent

(42:22):
monogamy is risk free. It's not like Americans today have
just totally nailed it right, like we know exactly how
to do the perfect marriage, and as you can see,
nobody's divorcing and everyone's happy. These things are very very complicated.
So I don't think you can say we're going to
open it and it's going to be fine, because our
ability to know how that's going to play out is
less than certain. Maybe we think we're opening up a

(42:44):
little bit, but then somebody falls more in love than
he intended to. Um. Maybe somebody thinks she'll be fine
with having it be open, but then the pain comes
and you know, she didn't anticipate it, and so be it.
So there is definitely risk in doing it. I just
don't think that the question really is is there risk
in consensual nonmonogamy, because the answers yes, we should skip it.

(43:06):
I think we need to be aware what the risks
are of monogamy, which includes things like boredom, frustration, sexlessness.
There's all sorts of risks that come from sixty years
of committed exclusivity. And how do those risks play out
for us relative to the risks of consensual nonmonogamy and
for many relationships, many people, the best plan is going

(43:26):
to be monogamy, but certainly not for everybody. You and
and you had mentioned this exact thing of of how
it's not like we've really nailed monogamy down. You know,
divorce rates are at an all time high, and and
it's not really not necessarily you know, proven that that's
the that's the way to go. Um, in your in
your studies, have you found any specific statistic that shows

(43:48):
maybe open relationships have a higher success rate than monogamous relationships.
So the the ideal study here is basically impossible. So
so to draw causal conclusions, what we really want to
do is take a stay ample of a few thousand
people and randomly assigned some of them to have a
monogamous relationship and some of them to have a consensually
non monogamous relationship. For for practical reasons and um ethical reasons,

(44:12):
you can't really run that study. So the best studies
really that are available at this time is to take
samples of people who have opted in right, So, among
people who have opted into a consentually non monogamous relationship
versus a monogamous relationship, who's who's happier if either right?
Is there a difference? And that work has now been done.
So if you take a sample of people who are

(44:34):
consentually non monogamous, and the study I'm thinking of is
they did a really good job. So these are all
heterosexual couples, that is, a male identifying person with a
primary partner who is female identifying or vice versa, and
open right, so they have a primary partner of the
other sex and non monogamous, and they compare that to
a sample of people who also have UM male identifying

(44:54):
with female identifying or vice versa. But they've adopted a
monogamous norm. So, so far as we can tell, the
major differ prints is the norm they have in their relationship. UM,
So what are the differences when it comes to things
like satisfaction and commitment? No differences. There are no differences
in terms of overall level of satisfaction or average level
of satisfaction. There are minor differences in terms of things

(45:16):
like trust, um, And which way do you think that
effect might go? Because I think if anything goes the
other way, So the consensually non monogamous relationships are a
little bit more trusting than the UH than the monogamous relationships.
And I think it's partly the things that that we
saw from from Steven Julia, where this doing this stuff well,

(45:39):
having a primary partner and also seeing other people is
is emotionally fraught and it requires additional levels of processing
and conversation, and so I think that there is some
benefit that comes from those sorts of conversations. Once again,
let me underscore This is not a risk free option.
People can get very very hurt in ways they don't anticipate,
that can fall in love and is they don't anticipate.

(46:01):
But there are all sorts of upsides as well of
this type of relationship. For again, for the people who
feel comfortable trying it. You know, I'm surprised, but I'm
also not necessarily surprised about that trust finding because you know,
Juliet mentioned at first and I don't mean to speak
about you, what like you're not here, Julia, but she
mentioned at first, you know, that she didn't want to know,

(46:21):
and then the kind of the anxiety of not knowing,
I'm thinking to myself, Yeah, if I didn't know, then
any time my significant other would leave, if my girlfriend
would leave for the grocery store, I'm like, just gonna
go talk to that fucking guy at the grocery store.
But now that you know, I think having the knowledge
and having the open conversation pun intended having the open

(46:42):
conversation about hey, this is this is how I feel,
and everything always builds more trust. So if you're if
you're kind of covering the infidelity with hey, my heart
is open and this is where I go. It actually
makes a lot of sense that that you would have
more trust a relationship like that. Yeah, one quick thing

(47:02):
on on terminology. So the reason why people who are
are you know, receptive to this lifestyle arrangement, this type
of relationship use the clunky language of non monogamy and
consensual nonmonogamy is because language like infidelity, UM and and adultery,
this is usually language of people being dishonest. So so
infidelity I don't I don't think there's any infidelity UM

(47:25):
in Stephen and Julia's relationship. But in a non monogamous relationship,
it's not infidelity, it's openness, it is honesty. That's that's
so again. I could talk about about people in general
because I mostly focus on data, but because UM, Steve
and Julia were so generous with their story, we can
use them as an example. I hope, I hope that's
fine with everybody. Um, they have this this emotional processing

(47:46):
and what does that do? Like they come out, you know,
he comes out of the room. He's just at the
conversation and the two of them sit on the couch,
maybe pour a glass of wine and have a conversation
about what it means and it's an opportunity for her
to say, for example, I'm not putting words in your mouth, Julia,
just sort of speaking hypothetically like that was a little
hard on me. And he can say, I know, and
I'm sensitive to that, and it's very important to me
that you feel loved. And they can take this opportunity

(48:06):
to share what they feel in their sensitivity about those things,
and the norms in favor of doing that are very high.
In the poly community in particular, there are very very
strong norms in favor of lots of communication. It's one
of these things where I actually feel like the monogamous
world has a whole lot to learn from the consensually

(48:26):
non monogamous world in terms of how to communicate, just
like I think that UM, the the sort of vanilla
world has a whole lot to work to learn from
the kink or b D s M community about the
nature of consent. I think people UM who are monogamous
have a lot to learn about how to communicate effectively
about emotions and hurt feelings UM from people who are

(48:48):
practicing uh non monogamousts. I totally agree. I mean, I'm
just a sponge today, Like it's really it's really the
level of I mean because I think in my mind,
in my relations Jim, if you can talk or in
any relationship, if you can talk about your heart in
its fullness, then you can talk about anything like You're
not gonna get offended by tiny little things, if you

(49:09):
can have big, broader conversations of of open honesty. UM,
your advice for a couple sometimes centers around adjusting your
expectations from your relationship or from what your marriage could
do for you. How does that apply here with open
relationships and how is it a little bit different. Well.
One of the things that that's especially enlightening about studying

(49:31):
this stuff is all of us are born into a
certain cultural and historical moment, and we think that we
know exactly what marriages and we act as if marriage
has sort of always been like this or or else.
We look at at you know, leave it to Beaver
and say that marriage was always like that before, But
it wasn't. The nine fifties was a bizarro world that
existed for like fifteen years, and it just happened to

(49:53):
be the time that TV came in. Marriage was never
like that before, and it was never really like that after. Um,
so today we have a whole range of different expectations.
And like I said, it didn't used to be the
case that people talked a lot about marrying their best friend,
or about you know, living an authentic life, and and
about you know, being in a marriage that helps us
grow as individuals. That's very much of the now. And

(50:16):
and in my book, I I track the history of
these ideas and and this is where in the third
major era of marriage in America, I call it the
self expressive era, where these sorts of emotional and psychological
needs are foundational to our expectations of marriage. That is,
we think that a marriage that doesn't deliver these things
is inadequate. Now, in the fifties that wasn't really the case,

(50:37):
and certainly in eighteen hundred that wasn't the case when
really it was about food production and shelter um. But
these days we have these sorts of expectations. The thing
that was most fun about writing the book is that
I had started thinking that these changes are bad, that
basically we are ruining marriage. We're putting so many expectations
on this one relationship that there's no way it can

(50:59):
withstand all the weight that we're throwing on it, I
came to think something different. In the end, I came
to think that when you're throwing all these expectations, it
is true that a marriage that would have been totally
adequate for our grandparents may disappoint us today. But it's
also true that a level of marital connection is possible
today that was out of reach in an era where

(51:20):
we weren't even trying. And so so the calibration of
what is it that we're going to look to our
marriage to do in terms of our deep emotional fulfillment,
in terms of our sexual fulfillment, in terms of helping us,
inspiring us in our career, if we can play to
the strengths of the marriage on those things, and also
figuring out, you know where am I not ready to

(51:41):
look to just this one person? So so Steve has
a philosophical objection and many people do to monogamy. He's
not willing to look to one person for just that.
Do they have the sort of relationship that they can say, look,
that is a reasonable place for you to look elsewhere
to fulfill some of your needs. And we don't have
strict rules about which needs you you need to meet
here versus in this other sort of context. I'm perplexed

(52:03):
right now. I am, like, I'm just this is so cool.
I'm really grateful for all three of you guys for
being on the show. I have one more question before
we take a break. You've studied now romance in general,
but even these topics for decades. Now, what's something that
you wish people knew People like me who are literally
probably listening to this podcast, like, whoa, I never even

(52:24):
thought about it like that. What's something that you wish
people knew about the benefits, like the real benefits of
having an OsO, either romantic or or otherwise, well, that
it can benefit the primary relationship. And again, I'm not
a zealot for this stuff. I'm not a fanatic saying
everybody should be doing this, Like Steve, I think there
are very very serious, you know, risks involved with this.

(52:45):
It's not for everybody. But but I think the assumption
that if there's some amount of non monogamy, some amount
of non exclusivity, that suggests some sort of failing in
the primary relationship, and if if the relationship were good enough,
then there would be no need to look elsewhere. I
think it is the wrong logic um. Certainly that's true
in some situations, but it may well be the case

(53:07):
that you know, we're unbelievably compatible in all sorts of ways,
and this is a way that's that you know, monogamy
isn't a huge priority to either one of us, and
we both think it's fun to be with other people,
or we find like we have a deep intellectual connection
with somebody else that doesn't in any way step on
the connection that we feel with our primary partner, that
that having an additional partner can actually benefit the relationship.

(53:29):
And I didn't talk about the relevant studies here, but
for example, there's one study that looks at how intimate
we feel with our partner as a function of whether
we're in a monogamous or a non monogamous relationship. Here again,
this is a separate study from before. No difference. Right,
You might think that intimacy is this limited commodity, and
for each minute that Steve talks to some other woman,
that that's a minute of intimacy that he doesn't get

(53:49):
with Julia. There's no evidence that that's the case. Wow,
we're just factual, We're just we're just Wow, this is
this is so sick. We're taking a break, but it's
a quick break because we gotta talk. We gotta keep
talking about this. Don't go anywhere. We are back. I
told you it's going to be a quick break. We
are here talking about love hacks. Uh. This is I'm

(54:10):
so excited about this, this whole episode, Like, I can't
wait for people to hear this. Steven and Julia from
your guys experience, what's something that you wish totally monogamous
couples like me, what's one thing you wish they knew
about being an open relationship? I think just that it's
kind of what I've been saying the whole time, where
it's like it's not that different from any other kind
of problem, and it's not necessarily the solution to your problem.

(54:34):
Like Eli was saying, I don't think that it's for
everyone or the solution to every problem. But it can
be a gateway to connection, and it can be it's
an option. It's a possible solution to something, again, not
always the solution. But also because just because that's not
there doesn't mean you don't also have relationship problems. You

(54:55):
have relationship problems no matter what. So it's all about like,
what are those problems? And if you're a monogamous that
doesn't mean, like I said too, that you are having
any more intimacy or that you are not. So as
long as you are getting what you want from your relationship,
who cares how it's how it's working. Um for me,

(55:15):
I would have to say, um, you know it's it's funny.
My social media is so funny because my Instagram is
all Julia like so much Julie too much Julia, and
my Twitter in yeah, and my Twitter is I joke
around a lot about being non monogamous and babes and
checking out babes and doing stuff that nothing crass or anything.

(55:37):
You know I have, Uh, I have a lot of
like a women friends and a big women audience and
stuff too. So you could feel they would get mad
at first if I would tweet about it, because they
love Julius so much. They fall in love with her
on my Instagram and so they're kind of protective of her.
But you could see over time they understand it. It's like, oh,
but obviously they're staying together and Steve loves her. It's

(56:00):
almost like, listen, if you will allow me to be free,
like truly free then um, like you will own my
heart in like so many ways. So I think by by,
I think time has played out and showed to our
comedy community and everything that you know, if you can
allow the other person to be themselves, that's such a

(56:21):
loyalty and like a true fidelity of my heart exists.
It's almost by you know, that's stupid old saying that
if you like open your hand and let the bird
fly away, then it's and it comes back it's yours
that we that's truly like how it's played out. I
feel what do you give? No, I was just gonna
say no, I agree, and I feel like I haven't.
I feel like I haven't said I love you enough

(56:41):
on this Uh like that I feel like it's implied
we're married and I love you, but it is. I
think that's the thing that you ask yourself most importantly,
that it's like if you everything that you are doing
should be coming from love, and that might mean like
loving someone, also can mean breaking up with someone or
having it not work or whatever. But I think that
anything in that thing, as much as it is a clichee,

(57:03):
it is very true that if you are like too
afraid to try the thing for fear of losing the relationship.
It's not yours you're holding. You were having to hold
it under a condition that is not real. That's what
I at least tell myself is that I'm like, if
I really love this person, then I need to love
them exactly as they are. That doesn't mean I'm not

(57:25):
entitled to my feelings about it, or that I can't
still be hurt or asked them to, you know, change behaviors, whatever.
But but if you really love someone, it cannot be
conditional on them doing only behaving in one certain way.
So I think that remember reminding yourself that you that
you love this person like is is the thing too?

(57:47):
Write Eli you had something that I have a question
for you. So it wouldn't surprise me if if some
of the listeners are thinking, really it's not okay to
ask possibly even demand any type of sacrifice? Um, any
thoughts on that, like in principle are there? Is it
okay to make those demands? I think you absolutely can

(58:07):
make those demands. I think you can. You can always
ask for anything, um, And it doesn't mean that you
get them. And I think, more importantly, if you aren't
sure why you are asking them to make that demand
if you don't pass through. And mind you, my mom
is a psychiatrist. I've been in therapy. I'm like a

(58:27):
real therapy person. I've I've read all the not not
all the books, but every book ever, every book, every
one was just published. Yeah, this is this is something
that I have. I have thought through a lot and
all those things. So I understand that, like that is,
we aren't taught to like think like this necessarily. But

(58:49):
I think again, this idea of like, if you aren't
sure why you're demanding that of someone, it's going to
pop up in another way in your relationship, likely that
doesn't have anything to do with monogamy or not. So
if it's a boundary for you and you know that
about yourself, then yeah, again you can ask, you can
ask whatever you want, but you have to be prepared

(59:10):
to deal with the consequences if their answer is no.
And if it's really a boundary, if it was more
of a way to like manipulate someone's behavior instead of
a I know myself, I know that I'm not going
to be comfortable with this, Like then it's coming from
a boundary love place as opposed to a like, you're
my husband, I'm allowed to tell you you need to
do this thing the right I want to. I want to.

(59:35):
It's because she read everybody. It's because she read every
book ever. So you both you both brought something up
and and it made me want to kind of make
a statement. But I'm still gonna come in it as
a question because I am such a newbie into this conversation.
It seems like either way, a non monogamous relationship is
definitely for a strong couple. You know, there's a lot

(59:58):
of couples who choose not monogamy as like a last
resort to a relationship that's not strong. Um, but what
are some markers that you and your relationship could survive
or even thrive if it were to open up? Lak,
She's read all the books. I've every book. Yeah, Well,

(01:00:18):
I mean the other thing is is you're You're you're
unique in the sense of like you hit that crossroads
where you were like this is a path that we're
about to take. What what what gave you those inklings
that like this is the right move to do something
that you've never really done before. Well, I do want
Julia to answer, but we are very much obsessed with

(01:00:39):
a thing has to last forever or as for as
long as possible. To me, if if you're using this
stuff and you end up breaking up, it's because you
needed to break up, and that's okay. And if at
some point Julie and I need to break up, I mean,
that was a real This is my second marriage, and I, like,
I thought I was never gonna get married again. But
we've talked about it so much. I knew would make

(01:01:01):
her so happy, and I was, I'm surprised at how
happy it's made me. But I just thought about it
and I was like, I just realistically, I can't see
a way. I'm older now and she's older, we're not kids.
I can't see it ending. If it does end, if
we our value systems change or we want different things,
that happens with life. But to me, it's never about

(01:01:24):
how can we make this last forever. It's how can
we both be the healthiest, most full versions of ourselves
And and that might be hopefully that means we stay
together forever, but it might not mean that. So I
think it's important to to realize that people breaking up
is absolutely not the end of the world. Some of
the worst relationships. I know people have stayed together forever. Julia, No,

(01:01:47):
I was gonna say, I think first and foremost, if
you are thinking about it, then it's maybe worth exploring.
Doesn't mean necessarily actually literally opening up, but I'm a
big fan of like, if something philosophically works, you should
kind of be able to apply it to other things
besides that thing. So if you are feeling stagnant in

(01:02:08):
some kind of way, maybe it's not literally opening up
your relationship, but maybe it is uh, hanging out with
your friends or just even asking yourself, am I identifying
with this partnership? Like what would it mean to me
if this partnership didn't work? And what fears do that
bring up for for me? About my self worth? About uh,

(01:02:28):
what pressures am I maybe putting on this person that
I'm not aware of that I am saying, Like is
there do I want to go back to school? Do
I wanna like start up a new hobby? Is there
other things? I think it's again this the same thing.
Is this idea of like, oh, our relationship is the problem.
I think sometimes it's your problem and it's not. It's

(01:02:49):
not like because the relationship isn't working, it's because you
aren't working in some way, and not to say that
it's like your fault, but uh, I think it's like
being not being afraid to ask the questions, but exploring, like, well,
what what are my resistances to that in not opening up?
Or like where am I if I don't do it
in this way? Where else could I uh be more

(01:03:11):
open in my life? Yeah? Totally, Eli. You you you
put your hand up so I know you can speak
to this. How I would love for people to think
about monogamy is a Titanic ask. The idea that you
will not have emotional or romantic or sexual um connections
with anybody but me for the next fifties sixty years

(01:03:33):
is gigantic, and that's fine. I think many people should
indeed make that ask. It's the best option for many
many people. But treating it as some default, as some
obvious thing that we're gonna do and then we're gonna
start getting to what we're really asking of each other,
that's a risk. That's a risk of we're going to
ask more than is appropriate given what we're willing to invest.
And and so what I would urge people to do

(01:03:54):
is to be deliberate about this decision. Do we want
to commit to a lifetime of monogamy together? If so,
what does that mean? What does that mean in terms
of my fitness regiment? What does that mean in terms
of of how I'm going to, you know, manage my
work related travel and make sure that I don't put
myself in risky situations, make sure that I don't become
a comedian. Right, there are all sorts of things that
we're gonna need to calibrate in order to make that happen.

(01:04:17):
And and the problem is, because everybody've used this as
that's obvious default, people aren't engaging with the size the
magnitude of the ask. So God bless you want to
be monogamous forever, that's terrific. What are the things you're
not going to ask of your marriage? What are the
things that you're gonna do in order to make sure
that monogamy can actually be plausible for the two of
you over the next however many years that you hope

(01:04:39):
the relationship lasts. I was gonna say, let me backtrack.
I think demanding that your partner not become a comedian
is the only thing that you're allowed to demand in
or the only demand that is across the board. I know,
I know, I totally I love that because it is
the thing I think, no matter what the default that
there is no kind of relationship that doesn't require immense

(01:05:00):
communication and deliberation and self discovery and sacrifice in all
of those ways. Is monogamy or not. All relationships require
work and and thought and effort and all of those things.
It seems to me, as I've as I'm learning this
real time firsthand, you know, learning on this podcast, the

(01:05:22):
biggest thing is like, and it's so corny, but it's like,
you gotta follow your heart, you know, Julia, you said,
sometimes do it. Sometimes following your heart and really loving
somebody is leaving them and breaking up with them, like
you had mentioned as well, Steve, Like, it's not following
your heart, is not staying in a thirty year marriage
where you're miserable and you secretly wish that you were
you know that you were somewhere else with someone else.

(01:05:42):
Um And and the same thing is following your heart
is knowing Hey, this you know, even though monogamy is whatever,
this is the main popular thing, it's not it's not
where my heart goes. I gotta go this way and
with a partner, It's like, Yo, this is something that's
really important to me. It's following my heart. And every
great relationship I think incourage is the other person to
follow their heart and chase after what their you know,

(01:06:03):
what their desires are. And so that's something that I
really took away, especially from this whole episode. But I
do want to close out that this segment is called
love hacks, and and the reason why it's called that
is Eli in your book, Uh, you talk about love hacks.
Can you explain that, um and and tell us maybe
one of your favorite love hacks? Sure? Well, yeah, I
mean the book um Is is really about how we

(01:06:26):
calibrate our expectations to what we as a couple can
actually achieve. UM sort of helps people think well about that.
So in some sense, the book is a supply and
demand story. It says, you can demand whatever you want
to ask of the relationship, but then the supply matters.
Are we compatible enough, are we investing enough time in
the relationship? Are we keeping ourselves fit enough to be
attractive to our partner for fifty years? These are the

(01:06:48):
sorts of supply and demand calibrations. But there's a little
bit of a short cut that that's not going to
make a bad relationship a good one, but it can
help around the edges, which is the the idea of
love hacks. Are there quick and dirty things we can
do to make the relationship a little bit stronger that
don't require big date nights and big conversations, that that
require relatively little investment, relatively little supply, but that can

(01:07:10):
increase the quality of the relationship. UM. It's based a
little bit on the on the observation by the novelist
Marcel Proust who says that mystery is not about traveling
to new places, but about looking with new eyes. And
in the book, I talked about eight different you know,
science backed love hacks. UM. One of the ones that
you know we created in our lab here at Northwestern
is we we recruited a hundred and twenty married couples.

(01:07:31):
We randomly assigned half of them to a condition where
they thought about conflict in their marriage from the perspective
of a neutral third party who wants the best for everybody.
One of them was in a control condition where they
didn't do that task. And we found that even though UM,
the writing task took only twenty one minutes. We found
that people who had immersed themselves in this third party perspective,
how can we think about conflict from this perspective of

(01:07:53):
a neutral third party who wants the best for everyone?
That just re orienting your thinking in that way made
your relationship better over a subsequent year. Wow, and you
and and and I also want to touch on this
is you have mentioned this during the break, is that
people act as if the study of romance, or or
open relationships or or consensual monogamy is just kind of

(01:08:14):
like table talk. But in reality, there's so much research
behind this. And you're obviously a firsthand example of of
how much research has done in books that have been written,
including your own, including uh and I want you to
shout it out. I can't exactly remember what. It's something
slut um but that is actually not scientific um. But

(01:08:36):
but it is. It is a book about relationships. There
are there are many books books about relationships. Not all
of them are based in the data. In fact, very
few are. And it's one of the major reasons why
I wanted to write the book is is there are
thousands of people who have devoted their entire careers to
collecting data about what makes relationships better or worse just
on average. Right, you can't really say and therefore you

(01:08:58):
you specific couple this is how you should to it.
But it provides useful clues to know that these sorts
of behaviors tend on average to be beneficial, these sorts
of behaviors tend on average to be particularly harmful. And
there are I don't know tens of thousands, hundreds of
thousands of journal articles cloistered in academic libraries, and so
one of the things I wanted to do was to
distill what I thought were some of the main learnings

(01:09:19):
from that scholarly literature and and bring it and bring
them to the public. Well, you definitely did, um and
and and I'm so grateful that, uh that that you
were here on the podcast, as well as Julia and Steve.
You know, growing up not knowing anybody who was even
in an consensual, non monogamous relationship until just a couple
of years ago, seeing not only a consensual non monogamous relationship,

(01:09:44):
but also seeing how much love it's just as strong
as my parents who have been monogamous for thirty years
with each other, and understanding that the overall goal in
a relationship across the board is to just be open
and honest and loving with each other. I know that
for a moment it kind of became like the live
version of breaking down your relationship. And so I'm so

(01:10:04):
grateful that you guys came on, and also the fact
that you guys are like the gold standard for love
in itself and so um it means a lot to me.
And I think it's time for my favorite segment of
the show so that people can see all of these
pictures of Julia, like you're talking about Steve. It's called
not So Shameless promo. Uh, just tell us about what
you're working on, what you're excited about, and where we

(01:10:26):
can find you on social media. Go for it. Oh,
I've got a bunch of podcasts. I have a religion
podcast I used to be a minister called Who's Your
God with Amy Miller, a movie podcast called Us from
the Vista, and a horny guys news podcast called The
Male Gauge. You can find me at Big hern on
Twitter and Hernia on Instagram. Hernia did you get Is

(01:10:47):
that actually just spelled like hernia? I can't believe I
got it. I cannot believe that you've got that. That's amazing.
People should follow you just for the just for the handle,
just for the handle. People always say oh Hernia, like like, well,
just refer to them him as if that is his name.
So it's a good one. That's a good sign. I

(01:11:07):
love it. Julia hit Us listening not so shameless promo. Sure,
I am at Julia Logan on all platforms, as you
mentioned in my intro. I also I'm a co host
of an astrology comedy podcast called What's Your Sign? Uh.
If you're into astrology or not into astrology, I personally
love having haters listen. Uh. I love talking to astro haters.

(01:11:28):
It's one of my favorite things. I am truly fueled
by the astro haters. So you could you could totally
hate it and absolutely listen. But that's at What's Your
Sign Podcast on all of the platforms. Um. I I'm
gonna start offering astrology readings, so if you're interested in that,
slide in my d m Eli finkel Um the author
of The All or Nothing Marriage, a professor at Northwestern University.

(01:11:50):
The book tries to take what we know, take a
data based approach. What we know about relationships um to
help people figure out how they themselves can build wronger
relationships as possible. I'm on social media handle is Eli
J Finkel f I n K E L and primarily
on Twitter, but Paul Show on Facebook, Instagram, etcetera. I
love that you know you can always find me at

(01:12:12):
alex Iono everywhere. It's the best part about having a
weird last name ai O n oh. But more importantly,
please make sure you rate our podcast and subscribe. You
can leave a review. That is how we grow. But
I'm so grateful that you can and listen today and
I'll talk to you guys next time. We really want

(01:12:35):
you to get the help you need, so if you
need help, please seek independent advice from a competent healthcare
or mental health professional. The views and opinions expressed in
this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or
individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the
opinions of I Heart Media or its employees. This podcast
should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, counseling,
or therapy. Listening to the podcast does not established dr

(01:12:55):
patient relationship with hosts or guests of alex iono, let's
get into it, or I heart Media. No guarantee is
given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made
on this podcast. Wol if that's a doozy

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