Retail Therapy + Compulsive Spending with Kristen Henley + Karen Erlichman

Quarantine has wildly changed our spending habits, and our need for little moments of joy. But when does online shopping go beyond satisfying a need or a want and become compulsive? Alex Aiono is joined by comedian and podcaster Kristen Henley, as well as therapist Karen Erlichman, to recognize privilege when it allows us to get the things we need, and find out what we can do to curb compulsive spending during quarantine. From speedos to sofas, they cover all the weird and wild things they *thought* might cure their cabin fever. They also cover where you can donate to vital causes that need our attention right now, as well as work to reduce your footprint from any online shopping.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Alex, and I cannot stop buying things online. No,
nor will be alright forever. No, we are alright, alright forever.

(00:23):
Today we're talking about why I can't stop buying things online.
I did some research, and I have some scary numbers.
The research is based off of only one website in
which I purchase things, and because they are yet to
do what I feel is like a respectable action towards
fighting for the Black Lives Matter movement and racial equality

(00:46):
and fighting against racial injustice. I'm not going to say
the company's name, but we all order a lot of
things off of their website. I've purchased things on many
other websites. I've purchased since Quarantina started eighty three orders
since March on one website. I also broke down those
orders into what these orders are and what they consist of.

(01:08):
Thirty five of the orders were like life upgrades, so
like I bought like a bench that I built from
my room, and I bought Jim equipment to like help
upgrade my life. Twenty eight of those are gifts, so
the things I actually didn't mean get sent to my house,
I sent to my mom or my dad. It was
birthdays all of that. So out of the eighty three,
we have thirty five that are life upgrades, twenty eight

(01:29):
that are gifts, nineteen that I just categorized under one
umbrella called stupid shit that consists of anything from pancake
batter dispensers so that I can make perfect circle pancakes
to mouthpiece in case I don't know. I just thought
it was cool. It was super high rated. It got

(01:49):
so bad that I would look up the best things
to get on Amazon. That's why a lot of these
stupid ship purchases are literally because somebody else was like,
I got this and it was really cool. I got
a yard sized version and like a jumbo sized version
of beer Pong. Many things that are stupid ship, and
then one thing that I had to point out because
it's the first time I've ever bought one in my life.
As the eighty third order, I bought a Speedo and

(02:13):
it's a lot. It's there's a lot going on and
too much going on. Honestly, the Speedo, since I tried
it on uh sits in my closet, so I haven't
used it yet. That's only from one website though, so
I definitely feel like it's a lot. It's definitely more
than I've done before. And I don't know why it's
spiked up so much. Maybe it's because I can't go

(02:34):
out and shop and buy things regularly. Maybe it's because, um,
you know, being stuck at the house. I'm on my
phone so much, and I'm dealing with some stresses or
some anxiety about being stuck inside, or anxiety about how
honestly messed up the world is right now that I am.
You know, uh, the term retail therapy. I am. I'm

(02:55):
literally trying to make myself feel better by purchasing myself things. Uh,
it's not working. It's not working great. I think the
other thing is is like there's something fun about going
online and finding something and it feels great and you
just get excited and then you purchase it and then
you're like waiting and every day like you're looking outside

(03:16):
or you're tracking it. There's this whole thing. Um. But
what I'm feeling like is it's starting to create this
dependency on Now. I need to up keep a rhythm
of purchases so that I always have a package coming in.
I live with other people, they have packages that come
in and when they have a package coming. I want
a package to come in, so I go and buy

(03:37):
more things. It's a super unhealthy cycle, and it got
me thinking, why why can't I not stop buying things online? No,
what's up, guys, It's Alex I own up here. This
is let's get into it. It is my podcast where
I just talk about all of the things that you

(03:57):
and I want to know more about. And to a
we're talking about why I can't stop buying things online.
Obviously there's a clear consequence, which is my bank account.
But then I think that there might also be other
consequences or side effects to being so addicted to online shopping,
which is why I wanted to ask a couple of

(04:18):
friends to hop on here and help me on my
quest to figuring out why we can't stop buying things online.
So I want to introduce those two guests. First, I
have a brand new friend. She is an actor, comedian,
and host of a podcast that I've just learned about.
It's called Driving to Disneyland, where in fact, the podcast
is recorded while driving to Disneyland. Your kids might know

(04:41):
her from story Pirates, Your you might know her from
BuzzFeed or Funnier Die, Comedy Central, Sketch shows, Improp shows
all over Los Angeles. As I've heard, she is one
of the funniest people that people have ever met. Kristen Henley, Kristen,
how you doing? Hi? Uh? You know, I'm doing pretty well? Well?
You know what? Don't even know? That's like the automatic answer,

(05:03):
and then you think about it and you go, well,
I don't know about supposed to say I'm doing well.
I wouldn't say I'm doing actively badly, which is positive.
I'm doing how A lot of people are doing. House
that that's a great answer. And the good news is
for both of us who aren't doing amazing but aren't
doing horribly, we can talk about our feelings and get

(05:23):
some really good insight. Because my other guest is one
of my very, very long time friends. She is a therapist,
a wisdom tree. She's helped me get out of some
of my darkest of slumps, and she's helped me break
down some of my biggest of fears. Her name is
Karen or like me in, and she's with us right now. Karen,
how are you doing? And if you say good, I
know all of us are lying. I will say how

(05:48):
am I doing today? I'm really excited too. I have
missed you guys, so I am very excited for this
podcast episode and I am I'm grateful today. I like
that look at you always given us the answer we wish,
we said we have. We have some really cool things
to talk about. As you guys heard, I kind of

(06:08):
broke down my issue right now, which is I can't
stop buying things online. So we're going to talk about
the mechanics of online shopping. We're going to talk about
why we buy for comfort, and then lastly we're gonna
be talking about this bigger picture, what's really going down
um behind the scenes that we might not be seeing
in this addiction. But before we get into those topics, Karen,

(06:30):
you already know this question, Kristen. Every episode I ask
what is one thing that you have been doing this
week to improve your life? And this is my answer
that I have, and it's really silly. One. I made
sushi by myself for the first time. I learned how
to make sushi this last New Year's and we made it.
I never made it again, and then I this this week,

(06:52):
I was like, man, I really want to make sushi,
and so I did it without the chef that taught
me how to make it and it actually went really well.
So that's one thing I'm gonna definitely do more of that.
And the other thing is I started I created my
own professional Zoom account, so I can now host zooms,
I can host meetings. It's under my name, I can
record the meetings. It's really really sick. I feel like

(07:14):
a true adult. So those are what I've been doing
to improve my life. Karen, do you have something for
us this week? I am improving my life by telling
the truth more. Can you expand on that? Please? Yes?
And I want to make a distinction between like calling
people out, because that's not what I mean sometimes it is,
but telling the truth. I think the times that we're

(07:36):
living in right now demand us to be more real,
are calling us to be more real, and so to me,
being more real means telling the truth about myself, even
to your point of like when some don't ask me
how I am unless you're willing to hear how I
actually am, because I'm not saying fine or good anymore
because it's a damn lie. I like that. I think

(07:59):
that's going to have to be next week because a
lot of the time I feel like I catch myself
going like, how are you doing? I'm doing well, how
are you? And I'm like, no, I'm not stressed, anxious, angry.
I'm saying, how are you going to ask something that's
more interesting? That raise should just be like released from
our vocabulary because it's useless. Now. I like that, I'm

(08:20):
all for it. I'm voting. I'm voting for that proposition. Yeah,
I like that too. I feel like, especially once you
reach a quote adult age and you start actually trying
to form your own life and do things on your own,
you're just never doing fine. And that's normal, Like that's
the adult norm. I feel, yeah, because you're every fine, Yeah,

(08:41):
never fine. Even if we are kind of we're still
like we're always striving for something, which is good, but
like we're always trying to piece life's mysteries together. There
are stresses that nobody warned you about, and you know
we're just all caring that all the time. Yeah, that's
a good point. That's a good point. Okay, back on topic, Kristen,

(09:01):
what have you been doing this week to improve your life? Okay,
Now this also is a on the silly side of answers,
but it's really brought me some joy that I needed.
It's been a combination of cross stitching and watching Love
Island UK. I don't know. Do you know? Nothing that

(09:22):
I just said made sense. I don't know exactly what
cross stitching is. I know what Love Island UK is,
and you're going to actually hear one of my songs
in the background. I don't know what episode it is,
but I have a song on Love Island UK. I'm
very much looking forward to that, so boom, But what
is we? Can you explain what cross stitching is for
anybody that's not having a bunch of cats in their

(09:42):
house and about sixty four years old? I would like
to point out I have zero cats, and I'm zero
percent sixty or four years old. And actually my twenty
eight year old sister is the one who got me
doing this. Actually I need to resend my comments because
I know that my sister Taylor, who also is twenty eight,
she also does some form of crochet cross stitching. So

(10:04):
I think what we're doing is we're making we're making
cross stitching the new you know, we're picking it up
at an earlier age. Yeah, I think so. And my
sister started doing it first and she's making fun things.
And what crosstitching literally is for folks who don't know,
is it's like you have this little piece of cloth
that I literally don't know the name of. I like
to call it the cheese cloth. It has little holes,

(10:26):
and you are creating a picture with thread using little
stitches that are X shaped. And that's why it's called
cross stitching. But the reason I started doing it is
because for me, it was a way to have my
hands doing something that did not involve my phone. Oh wow,
that's a that's a goat move. Thank you, Thank you

(10:48):
so much. I'm proud to be goating. Well, I'm glad
and I'm glad that you're here. Actually, you and I
are going to jump right into this first segment. Karen.
We will be right with you in a little bit,
but I'm gonna keep drilling you. I want to keep
asking questions. In the beginning of this episode, I went
hard and I called myself out for making I've I
would say I've probably done over a hundred purchases now

(11:10):
in the last ninety days. That's more than one purchase
a day. Uh, what have you been ordering? How do
you feel like have you been splurging. Have you been
as addicted to buying things online as I have? What's
going on with your with your online purchases? Okay, I
will say it has sort of ebbed and flowed. I
will say about halfway into quarantine, I mean, and for context,

(11:32):
I'm in l A. We're still in shelter in place,
so it's just indefinite. I would say about halfway through
and beyond is when I started getting more comfortable with it,
because I am you know, I am an actor and
a performer, and a good portion of us out here
are basically we're unemployed at the moment. So I think
at first I was processing a lot of the anxiety

(11:53):
over knowing that not much money was going to be
coming in. So I wasn't really allowing myself to like
order foot out very much. I wasn't allowing that. And
then I hit a point part way through where I
just kind of told myself, like, I need to be
okay with allowing some normalcy in here and a little
quote splurng ing. Uh, so I started. I will say

(12:16):
the first big purchase I got excited about was the
big Bud Press sample sale. Do you are you familiar
with big bud Press at all. Okay, so it's this, uh,
it's just like a small business, but they've been getting
really popular. And it's this store that just sells really
colorful clothing. They'll have like staple items that they have

(12:36):
their biggest thing, or these jumpsuits, but they also have
like backpacks and they have like staple items and then
they offer that item in like every delightful color imaginable.
And so they do like these sample sales a couple
of times a year, and people literally line up in
the streets. And because it was during quarantine, it was
an online sample sale, and they had like all the

(13:00):
prep on their Instagram for how to handle this because
they were like, listen, this is likely to sell out
in five minutes. So here's how you have to strategize.
You need to shop on the website the day before,
know exactly what you want to get, and you have
like a literal minute to get what you want. So
I think for me, I was excited because a they're

(13:21):
clothes or not something that I always have access to
getting a lot of really and be there was this
sort of like quest feeling about it. So I studied
up and I went on there and I was like,
here's what I want, and I got lucky. I managed
the sales start at nine o'clock and I finished checking
out at nine oh one, and my friends were texting

(13:42):
me because we're all trying to get stuff and they
hadn't failed. Like it was at nine oh one, like
it was all gone. Yeah, so that was wild. And
what does this come. It's called the Big Bud Press.
Big Bud Press. Yeah, I'm not to get some colorful

(14:03):
clothes from them. It's very fun. It's like great, I
really like all their stuff, but it's like, you know,
exclusive enough. It was like, oh my god, No, I
think that. I think that quest aspect is something I
didn't even think of until you brought it up. Like
I've been I've also go I'm going on other websites
like eBay or auction sites and doing those online auctions,
and I think that that pressure too. You have to

(14:25):
get it in time, and you have to be there
and you have to write it. Like it makes it
almost like a game. It kind of takes the pressure
off of the idea. Like there's sometimes like I bought
these these basketball shoes. I don't know why I bought
basketball shoes. I'm not playing basketball anytime soon. Um, but
I bought these basketball shoes, and like I remember, at
the beginning of the auction, I was like, Okay, I'm
not spending more than a hundred fifty dollars. And then

(14:47):
you get so caught up in the quest and you're bidding, bidding, bidding,
and the next thing you know, you win the bid,
but that you now are spending two and you're like, oh, okay, cool.
I guess I forgot that I've made rules and I
wanted to do that. So there's also like that whole
of aspect, which again we can save all of the
mental brain questions for Karen because this is literally her specialty.
But I think that's kind of created this feeling that

(15:11):
I actually like online shopping. Like before Quarantine, I wasn't
really like a massive online shopper, Like it was actually
my preference if I could go and pick something up
from a store directly. My patients liked that more because
I don't have any patients, so I liked going out. Um.
Do you feel like since Quarantine has started, you have
built like more of liking for online shopping. Yes, I

(15:35):
think so, and I think it is part of for me,
some sort of longing for something normal feeling. M yeah.
I mean like I got a text from my sister
that was like, hey, Victoria's secret. Those legings are usually
like seventies something bucks and today they're thirty dollars and
I was like, oh, I got to get on it
and I bought you pair. Is that the big are you?

(15:57):
Are you shopping Big Bud right now? Karen? I found
the website Big Bud Press. You know that this is
a real problem when we're online shopping while we're recording
a damn podcast episode. This is it. This is really
what the issue is. So I definitely agree with you
though that it gives you that feeling of normalcy. It
gives you that feeling of okay, cool, this is what

(16:19):
shopping is like, you know, yes, and there is, like
you said, that expectation feeling of like oh, something's coming,
and it gets you excited to leave and like go
down to the mailbox. Like when I know something's coming,
it is easier to motivate myself to get up and
out of my apartment. And I mean the mailbox is

(16:39):
not far away, but it's like, oh, let me go,
let me go check this out. There's like something out
there for me, which when you stay inside long enough,
you sort of forget that it's all still happening. So
here's a question. Do you feel like now that we're
creating because I'm creating a liking for buying things online,
I'm creating a liking for that waiting for something to

(17:00):
come in while I'm still at my house, you feel like,
as you know, knock on wood, whenever the hell we're
allowed to go back out and shop and and and
be doing this thing, you know, like like we we
used to do. You feel like you're going to go
back to that mindset of not at least for me.
I never bought things online. I'd always go out and
buy them. But now I'm really curious. I don't really

(17:21):
know for sure, but I'm curious how I'm going to
react to this whole new thing, or if I'm going
to stay buying things online and being like I don't
even have to leave anymore to go shop. What do
you think I'm hoping for a happy medium? But yeah,
it is, there is so much more of the instinct
now that we're building up. This instinct, isn't there. I

(17:44):
don't remember where I learned this. But it's like if
you do something twenty seven times, it becomes a habit,
right right, right right, And it is like we're reforming
habits right now. What if you've built a habit about
hundreds something times and bought something online, is that just
mean that's probably cozy up to your personality I'm fully inhabiting. Yeah.

(18:04):
I mean, it's not that you can't break it if
you decide to you later, But it sounds like it's
probably cozy right up to your psyche. I don't know. Yeah.
So the other thing, there's another there's another kind of
world of online shopping that I've only done maybe once
or twice, and that's like groceries and toilet paper and
paper towels and things that you actually, you know, during

(18:26):
the virus and during the pandemic, I've still been going
and buying my groceries once or twice. I've tried ordering
like the groceries to be delivered to the house, and
I don't know why. I just was like, man, not
that cool. I'm going to go out like I think
because I also it's my only way to leave the
house is by going to grocery shop. Have you done
any online grocery shopping, not a lot, because I agree

(18:48):
like there's something about that version of online chopping that
felt weird. So I didn't do very much. The only
thing I did was, so this is a very specific
thing to my family, but my mom. There is this
lactose free spread herble butter that my mom loves, and
it isn't sold in my hometown. We I'm from Vegas.

(19:09):
They don't sell it there, only gets sold in like
Ralph's in Los Angeles. Anyway, she ran out, and so
I had this quest to get this butter. So I
did get on insta cart because not all stories have
the normal stock right now, so I did hop. I
did hop on insta cart for that lad was free butter.

(19:30):
And I tell you it felt very strange. It's weird,
isn't it. Yes, I didn't super weird, but I don't
know what it makes it weirder, But it's just weird. Agreed.
I don't know why, like, hey, I'm gonna buy some
leggings online feels super normal. Or it was like, oh,
I'm getting a swimsuit today, but for some reason, like

(19:50):
getting eggs today, that just doesn't feel like it doesn't
It doesn't feel right. I'm not sure what the difference
is there. So you mentioned UM also that you kind
of I was we we differ in the sense that
as soon as quarantine hit, my online shopping addiction just
started immediately. You had mentioned that halfway through is when
it you kind of started feeling you know, I guess
from the start of quarantine to now, halfway through is

(20:13):
when you started buying things online. Do you feel like
your um, whether it's your mental health, whether it's just
your overall happiness, whether it's your views on on the world,
whether they're positive or negative, do you feel like they
changed or they differ at all in terms of your
the first phase right where you were like, I'm not
going to buy anything online. I have to be smart
about the money and I have to be this I

(20:34):
wish I had that, by the way, and then the
second half when you started to purchase things and you
kind of loosened up a little bit, How do you
feel like mentally you you you changed. I would say
a big part of it is at the beginning of
the quarantine, it was there was so much mystery and
so much information coming from all places, and I would

(20:58):
say that's still the case out, but it's weirdly become
the norm, and so I think for me it was
like I feel like I was just like suddenly told
like it's the end of the world. Survive, survive, survive,
and so like any sense of for Volley had to
be shed for a minute because I felt like I
was in survival mode even though I was sitting in

(21:20):
my perfectly safe and my environment in my apartment. If
I'm sitting in here, everything looks normal, doesn't look like
the world is crazy. But I had this sense of
like I have to hunker down because I don't actually
understand what's going on. Mm hmm, yeah, I'm totally with that, right.
It was like, so it was just survival mode for
a while, and especially because like the whole industry that

(21:42):
runs my town is in the dark. I was also like,
I don't know how this is going to go. I
don't know what kind of unemployment money I can get.
Thankfully that I was able to get all that worked out,
but even that didn't happen until like a month in
So for me, I think it just I had to
just live in this for a while and help myself
understand that, like, Okay, this is my version of normal

(22:06):
right now, and I need to do what feels good,
I guess, and what feels fun. It needs some mischief.
I think that's actually I need it mischief. That's the
other thing is like you know how, you know how
it's nobody ever wants to return something in person, like
you don't want to go and then pretend like they're like,
so why are you returning it? And you're like, I

(22:26):
didn't fit or my grandma bought it for me. When
you have to returning things online, especially with some websites,
it's the easiest thing on earth. It's literally just drop
it off, like so I feel like you can. I
I feel like the issue that I have is I
buy things and the mindset is, well, if I just
don't use it, I just send it back. I don't like,
I'll just return it. Out of those hundred or eighty

(22:47):
three orders I had, I haven't returned to single one.
Nothing's gotten returned. So everything and I buy half of
the things going it might not work out, We'll just
return it, so it doesn't really count as money being spent.
And then you never return it, but you also don't
account for it. That's like that's the issue. You know,
I'm I'm definitely getting alerts from my chase at being like,

(23:08):
are you sure this is you? Did you want this?
Did you want this brand new sofa delivered to you today? Yeah? Okay,
but now we're in this world right where that's something
my mom ordered online during quarantine. So what was it?
A sofa? A full blown sofa? Yeah? Okay, she wins.

(23:29):
Your mom wins in terms of like, I don't even know.
I didn't know that that was a thing you could do.
I didn't know that. You just you can just visualize
that this is the one and then go for it
like I've had every time I bought a couch, I've
I've had to lay on it at the store make
sure I liked it, and your mom just went full
blown let's just get one. Yeah, she went for it

(23:52):
with you know, because you want to know why you
can return it? Well, that's true, you can return it
if you don't like it, you know, and yeah, I
and my mom is the person who will follow through
on that. So I guess see, that's why I don't
buy couches. That's why your mom buys couches. I can't
buy couches. Well, Christen. There's now this new reality that
they're going to start reopening cities and they're gonna start

(24:15):
reopening communities and reopening stores and and um, trying to
get back to what they will perceive as the normal lifestyle.
Is there anything about that that makes you want to
go Yes, I'm so excited to go out and blank.
For me, the only thing I can think of is
to go out and buy shoes, because I feel like
shoes are the one thing that you can't shoes and clothes.

(24:38):
I guess like I don't like buying clothes online. I
haven't really made too many purchases of clothing since I've
been in quarantine, mainly because I wear the same clothes
every day. But those are the things that like, oh,
it would be nice to go to Lulu Lemon and
like try on these pants that I saw online, because
I don't want to buy them and then try them
on and then return them or say I will and
then not, and then I just have the wrong size

(24:59):
pants for the rest of my life. You know, what
do you think? Let's see. I don't know if there's
any specific thing that I'm like I need to go
out and buy that I'm so excited to do that
in person. I do agree with you on shoes especially,
but I think for me it's more just being out
with people. I think I just want to sit in

(25:19):
a booth in a Mexican restaurant. That's that's where I'm
at right now, even though I don't think I'll do
that right away. I really don't think I'm going to
feel safe doing that right away. But that's for me,
the image in my brain that I'm like, oh, that's
all I want. I just want like a margarita, my
friends and a nice booth and a Mexican restaurant. Yeah.

(25:40):
That's the issue is when is the balance of wanting something,
Like when is wanting something going to be more than
my fear of of what's out there in the world.
Because now we're not only dealing with a pandemic, we're
dealing with hatred. We're dealing with the unveiling of the
true face of this country right now, We're dealing with
so many other things that make me just go And

(26:00):
this house is kind of nice actually that I think
about it. I can make sushi now, I can host
a Zoom conference where like we can just be here.
This is better so I definitely agree with you that
I'm trying to figure out how badly I actually want
to go out and buy shoes, how badly I actually
would want to go out and eat at a restaurant,
or do I just want to like blast you know,

(26:22):
um fun like Mariochi music and and make you know,
burritos at my house, Taco night at my house, Carnie
saw off the grill, Like that sounds fine to me.
And I don't have to deal with racists and coughing
people and all of the things that scare me right
now in the world. Yeah, we I mean, we have
sort of developed these little safe cocoons too. That's a

(26:45):
good point with everything that's happening, and I mean, especially
with everything that's been going on in the last few weeks,
Like it's been this weird thing where I have been
fearing this, I've been feeling personally like this sort of
foam all that I'm like, oh, I'm not physically out
in the streets supporting my friends. But at the same
time I have to balance it with like, what, there's
still this reality of like this invisible villain that's not

(27:09):
leaving anytime soon. You know what, Actually, sorry, racism and
coronavirus are both sort of invisible villains, but I was
talking about the virus specifically. I feel like at the
end of the Avengers when they're like, yeah, we saved
the world, and then that end scene credit, like the
end credit scene comes on and you see there's another villain.
That to me is what's going on right now. It's

(27:29):
just more villains are being introduced, but we haven't even
gotten the chance to beat the villain from the movie before.
So it's literally like if, like if if if we're
talking about like Avengers, right, so that's like if Loki
and Thanos and Ultron all were like they came in early,
and then apparently Murder Hornets. By the way, where did

(27:50):
the Murder Hornets go? What's going on? We were just
talking about that. I don't know, nobody wants to talk
about them anymore. I would also like to add to
that Avengers list that like Hydra is like, hey, just kidding,
we never left. Yeah, Hydra is still there being like
we're still here too. Yeah. I feel like we're very
much in the last like we can have two weeks.

(28:11):
It's been like hi dripping, Like I don't know, way
you guys thought we were gone, but we're still here. Yeah,
how come we're getting the Avengers villains but we're not
actually getting the Avengers heroes. That's not fair. I think
we should get both. If we're gonna if Hydra is
gonna come back right now, we need we need at
least Captain America somebody to unite us, because we all
know that that's not happening right now. Actually bringing it
back on topic, because I was thinking this is getting

(28:33):
off topic. But bringing it back on topic, all of
those feelings I am trying to battle by buying things online,
like I am trying to battle by throwing money at
my pleasure seeking creature, you know, mind to try and
be like, no, life is okay because you have a

(28:53):
speed on. Now, by the way, it's actually what that
was the one purchase that my life got a little
bit worse. Because if you ever want to feel this
is the thing. If you ever want to feel bad
about yourself, look at yourself in the mirror wearing a speedo.
It doesn't you could have the Adonis body, like you
could literally be the Da Vinci body put on a
speedo and you're just like, Nope, that's Okay, I'd never

(29:14):
want to see that again. I look like it looks
like putting a hair tie around a sponge. It just
is one of those things that does not feel good.
It doesn't look good. We're gonna take a break and
we'll be right back. All right, we are back. This
is let's get into it. I just had a great
conversation with Kristen Henley and talking about honestly, we're just

(29:35):
talking about our addictions to buying things online. Mine was
masked by I'm buying things to improve my life. Now
I have a speedo. That's where we are. Uh, And
now I want to break down exactly why this is happening.
And I have my very very good friend Karen Orlickman. Karen,
how you no, I'm changing it? We already talked about this.

(29:55):
We're not we're not using this term, Karen, what's going
on in your life? I don't know what the new
we have to replace? How are you before we get
rid of how are you have to replace it? Because
there's now this like emptiness of Like Karen, it's like
when you're a kid and your parents says, how is
school today? And you just want to run out of
the room. Yeah, you know, well I was late. I

(30:18):
had to run. I tripped over a branch. Everybody saw it,
including my crush, my backpack, spread open books went everywhere.
But if you want to know exactly, like if if
to answer your question, school was good, that's what the
answer is. So we're gonna leap frog over the small
talk questions. We're gonna get straight into it. Karen, how
is your online shopping been during quarantine? During this time,

(30:39):
mine has generally been good in the sense that I
have not gotten out of control. Um, I what you
were talking about earlier with Kristen. So I have done
online grocery shopping for a while. Um, because I get uh.
For years, I've gotten a c S A organ produce

(31:00):
box delivered to my house every other week. So that's
how one less errand I have to do. I get
some awesome fruit and vegetables delivered to my house. And
you can go in online and they tell you here's
what's coming next week, and you can pick and choose.
You can also add a bunch of really expensive, delicious
extra ship if you want to, So I try to

(31:21):
avoid that. But so the shopping online for for groceries
has not been that, um shocking to me. But I
will say that the place where I've gotten a little
overly enthusiastic online is buying food for other people. I
found a website from my sister in law whom you know,

(31:43):
where you can order and you could get a taco
and have it sent to somebody. You can get like blocks,
bagels and cream cheese. So I sent my father a
birthday cake on his birthday because we were quarantining in place.
Delivery charge was more than the cake. But you know,
so I had a friend whose sister died a couple

(32:04):
of weeks ago. So normally I would like bring food
to somebody's house when someone's died. But I can't do that.
I mean I could, you can do it drop off,
but so I had food delivered to her. I have
a question. Both you and Kristen have mentioned food delivery,
not like groceries, like food delivery like your Postmates, your
uber eats, your door dash. Um, are you guys, does

(32:26):
that count as online shopping? Kind of I am screwed
if we're including food deliveries, like I probably double my
online shopping in food deliveries because like food to me
is like the ultimate therapy, Like there's no better way
to get rid of feelings than to eat them like that,
that's the ultimate We're we're gonna have a whole episode

(32:48):
about about that exact thing. So if that counts, I
don't know if I'm allowed. I'm gonna I'm gonna make
it so like it doesn't count for me because there's
a way too many online like door Dash, Uber Eats,
Postmates orders going on in my house, so I'm not
going to count that. My second thing is you are somebody,
like you said, who orders groceries. What's that like? Like

(33:12):
is it? Does it? Does the food feel fresh? Does
it feel like it's any different, does it taste any different?
Is it better? What? What's the what's the reality behind it? So,
like with the organic produce, I'll use as an example,
there's a bunch of different um farms that offer this
option to people all over the country. This is not
just like a northern California thing. And so I've tried

(33:35):
some other ones too, and they vary. Some of them
have pre prepared meals, some of them have meat, and
some of them have cheese, and some of them, you know,
so it really depends. Um So the one I use
is great because like if I order like rasberries and
they come and they're moldy, for example, which can happen

(33:57):
sometimes I just send them an email and the raspberries
were moldy, and they just credit they'll credit my account
the money. Wow, I might have to I'm gonna need
you to connect me on this. Then maybe this is
my new You're adding to my addiction. This is this
podcast is not going to help at all. It's just
gonna we're all gonna start buying. I'm gonna buy cross
stitching stuff and I'm gonna start ordering my my organic produce. Karen, Actually,

(34:22):
before we even get into it, what is your thought
on that term retail therapy? Is that you think it's good?
Do you think it's completely empty? Is it like is
it like a potato where yeah, it's carbs, but it's
good for you? Or is it like Captain Crunch where
it's like it's all just bad and people are going
to try and make you feel like you're allowed you
should do it. I think retail therapy is too often.

(34:44):
Retail therapy is a phrase that gets used by people
to justify buying things compulsively, shopping for things that they
don't need or should not be buying. Not always, though,
sometimes it's to me that one of the fact there
is how much you plan for it or not. Like
if you say, I'm going I need to take care

(35:06):
of myself, so I'm gonna do something good for myself,
and I'm when we used to go to stores, right
I'm leaving my credit cards at credit cards at home
and I'm just going to take X amount of cash
with me. I'm old school, right, paying with cash that
is all I can spend. So if I'm walking out
with a twenty dollar bill, I have to figure out

(35:26):
do I want to buy one thing that cost twenty dollars?
Am I going to buy two pairs of socks? Am
I going to just take myself to lunch? What am
I gonna do with that? The thing about the online
and with apps two is you don't have to feel
your money, you know, or they have like the buy
now you don't even have to add it to the
car anymore. You can just click and it's already happened.

(35:48):
And then sometimes oh my god, I'm looking at your
face for right now, Alex, and you just had this
like I'm so busted. Look on your face right feeling
where you're like, I shouldn't have done that, or should
I have done that? So that it's like if you
can consciously choose it for yourself so that you are
fully present. So if you're shopping mindfully, that's very different

(36:12):
than shopping compulsively. So you had mentioned the not seeing money, right,
you just put put your card information, so you're just
looking at your card, or if you're like me, you
have your card information memorized. What else makes online shopping
feel different or lighter or easier? That's making me because
even even if I compared three months of going out

(36:35):
and shopping versus these three months of online shopping, so
I've bought so many more things buying things solely online.
What else feeds that? So part of it is online.
You can buy anything, it's endless, right, you can, and

(36:56):
you can comparison shop right, you can say like, oh,
I found this couch to your point, maybe I can
get it cheaper over here, or maybe they're having free
shipping over here. And pretty soon like five hours have
gone by, you have lost your mind, you have lost
touch with reality. You're in this completely altered state. Your
brain is literally in a different state. Of mind. That

(37:19):
can also be true if it's just like in thirty seconds,
you go and you're like, I need some new black boots,
which is bullshit because we're not going anywhere, and you
see them and you're like click, and then you buy
them and then you don't have to think about it.
You don't have to feel your feelings, you don't have
to check your bank account. You just I want it.
I'm gonna have it. Click mhm. Yeah, No, are something

(37:43):
happens to our brains where we are not conscious and
present in choosing something. It's like we're doing something that's
completely unconscious. So there's there's obviously people who have like
a true addiction to shopping, like a shopping addiction, right,
And I don't think that I'm that, but I think,

(38:05):
like you said, a lot of times people use the
term retail therapy, and a lot of times I use
the term like I'm going to treat myself, and and
Kristen even said treat yourself. She got her colorful clothing.
Is there any reason to not treat yourself? Obviously if
you don't have the money too, But if you have
the money to is there any reason that you should not?
I guess, treat yourself. I think the language of treat yourself.

(38:28):
I'm so glad you brought that up because people talk
about quote unquote self care a lot and what is
something you can do to take care of yourself, and
a lot of times one of the first things people
think of is to go spend money on themselves in
some way, because we're talking about things, but people also
will will shop for something for well, a lot of

(38:49):
these things we can't do right now, but like massage
or manny petty or like, there are things that people
do to treat themselves that also involve money. Um, but
there are lots of things you can do to treat
yourself that actually don't cost money or cost very little money.
So I think it's having as many choices as you
can about different ways you can treat yourself. If you

(39:12):
treat yourself to something and then you feel guilty about
it later, right, like the credit card bill comes in
and you're like, I don't even remember buying that, like
pancake dispenser, right, So then we feel bad about ourselves
and then we kind of have built in the punishment, right,

(39:32):
we're punishing ourselves already. We feel shame about the thing
we bought, and then we're like, I can't go back
to the UPS store one more time to return one
more thing, because then the person is going to look
at me with that look, which is of course not true.
They don't care. That's sort of the repetitive cycle, right.
It's just it's and it's not that different from other addictions, right,

(39:55):
Like you say I'm not going to do this again,
and then you're like, well, maybe I'll just like have one,
I'll just buy one, right, So I guess then, contrarily,
is there anything damaging about listening to that buyer's remorse
about going, you know, saying like, okay, so I buy something, right,
And I was like, oh, I'm gonna treat myself, and

(40:16):
then I say that for forty purchases and then I go,
oh my gosh, I'm so dumb. Now I can't spend
a single dollar. Is there something? Is there something damaging
in terms of overreacting to that, to that buyer's remorse,
And then maybe when you do need that treat yourself
moment to buy yourself something nice or you want to
celebrate something, you stop yourself and you short yourself by

(40:38):
saying no because you did this really bad? You know
that can be a set up, Like you can only
tolerate that for so long, and then you're going to
have a moment where you're gonna say screw it, and
you're gonna go and you're gonna just unt out. So
you're telling me, I have no hope because this is
exactly what I'm dealing with. Plan it. Like say, I'll

(41:00):
give you an example that has to do with when
people are trying to quit smoking. Sometimes what I'll suggest
to people is take that money that you would have
spent on cigarettes and put it in a bank account
or put it in a jar or like, and then
at the end of each month, you can see how
much money. Forget, you're saving your life, you're saving your money,

(41:21):
how much money you were spending on cigarettes. I don't
don't smoke, so I don't know how much cigarettes cost,
but I know it's not cheap. And then go buy
yourself something with that because that was money, or treat
yourself that you were literally throwing away before. How do
you do that in this online shopping world where I
don't most of the time, I don't know how much
things cost. Unfortunately, like I don't sometimes I don't see

(41:43):
how much something costs until it shows up on my
credit card statement and I go, what the hell was
a hundred and twenty eight dollars? And I go back
and I was going, oh, my gosh, a cutting board
was and then two speedos where thirty eight dollars each.
Like it's you know what I mean? Like I feel
like when it's something tangible, right, when it's something that
I go, Okay, I know that this coffee that I'm

(42:05):
going to go buy is gonna cost me three fifty.
Maybe if instead I just make a coffee at my
house and then I keep that three fifty and I
put it into a little jar. Then at the end
of the month, I'll have this. How do you transition
that into what's going on now, which is just online shopping.
A lot of times the value of money is is
totally seen differently. Well, one thing that might be an

(42:27):
interesting experiment is to do is to track your money
for a week, just so you can see what you're doing.
And there are actually apps that you can use to
track your money. I used to track every penny that
I spent for years, every stamp I bought, every haircut,
I got, everything, so that if somebody asked me, well,

(42:48):
how much does it cost to get your haircut? I
could tell you right away. I knew everything, so for
a whole week. If you could try it so you
could see right, and then you could say, damn, I'm
spending three hundred dollars a month on lattes. I could
be using that for something else, you know, like, is

(43:09):
that what I want? It's like to really empower yourself.
So you could either say the money, spend it on
something else. So you could say, you know what I
really value being part of a community or supporting this
business that's trying to stay alive during pandemic, And so
I'm going to go buy those latte's because I feel
like I'm doing something good for myself, good for that

(43:32):
business owner, and good for the neighborhood. But so you're
you're consciously choosing it. I'm not about austerity and deprivation
at all, but I think we can enjoy it more
when we're not afraid of facing what we're actually doing. Wow,
I think it's a great way to end it. I
mean that I was gonna ask what should we do,
and you just answered it. So there we go. We're

(43:54):
gonna take a quick break. Christian's coming back, and we're
gonna come back and we're going to kind of just
talk about the bigger picture of online shopping. We'll be back. Alright,
we are back. This is let's get into it. I'm
alex Iono. We are talking about why we can't stop
shopping online. I've already talked with Kristen about just outing
all of the online shopping we do. I got to
talk with Karen Erleckman, who broke down kind of what

(44:16):
goes on in the brain and why it becomes so
easy to buy things online. And now we're kind of
just I don't know. I want to have some time
for us to talk about what's going on the big
picture in the world. And I want to start off
the conversation. Uh. We are in the middle of one
of the most important fights, I think, and especially in
my history of life, it is the most important fight.

(44:38):
But in the history of the world, in the history
of our country, we are really truly fighting for equality,
racial equality, racial justice. Um, that's including now police reform
and and re. I hate the term defund the police
because so many people get confused by it. But in
turns but re Yeah, reforming the police and changing the

(45:00):
budgeting across the board and making sure we're you know,
we're we're investing into the right areas. Without getting too
much into it, it's a very important time and one
of the biggest things they ask for is donations to help,
you know, to help causes like no Child Hungry during
the pandemic when a lot of families rely on school

(45:20):
lunches to be feeding their children. Justice funds and funeral
funds for UH for the lives that have been taken
by law enforcement or lives that have been taken um
due to coronavirus. You know you have. You have the
Brianna Taylor Fund, the George Floyd Fund, that David mckaty fund, them,
the mod are Very Fund, all funds that I've donated

(45:43):
to UH No Child Hungry. I also donated to so
many donations also online purchases, I guess, but they just
make me feel a little bit better You're doing the
right thing. Some of them are tax right offs. Can
can either of you guys speak to this in terms
of the difference, right, I think? I think buying a
speedo on Amazon uh is is a lot different in

(46:05):
terms of this bigger picture than spending your money to donate.
But at the end of the day, the money is
going out. So I would love to hear both of
your opinions, especially Karen in terms of what mentally happens
when you If if I would if I had a
hundred dollars and I bought a hundred dollars worth of Speedos,
or if I had a hundred dollars and I donated
out a hundred dollars, Obviously I'm not getting anything tangible

(46:26):
in return, But mentally, how does that happen? What? What?
What is that difference? Some of it depends on like
the your own values, your own belief system, how you
were raised, your own religion, or your own culture, just
your own ethics and values. And it is again important
to actually be conscious about what you're doing right, Like

(46:48):
if you are a person who like you want to
give to these organizations, but you want to be discerning
about which ones you give to, Like for example, some
of them I'm just talking about charitable donating in general,
take a huge percentage to go to their administrative overhead.
Some of them take a tiny percentage to go to
their administrative overhead. That's a helpful thing to know, like

(47:11):
how much of that money is actually going into organizations
that are advocating for transforming law enforcement. Like, I want
to know specifically what I'm doing with my money, whether
that's eighteen dollars or eight dollars. Am I giving because
I need to prove to somebody that I'm a good person?
Or am I giving because it's the right thing to do?

(47:33):
That's a that's a great point. And Kristen and I
want to ask you this because I feel like a
lot of the time, it's so easy for me to
donate fifty dollars, and by donate, I mean by something
for fifty dollars that I get. But when somebody goes, well,
you donate a true donation fifty dollars to help support
this person's legal fees because they're up against something that's

(47:55):
not right. Right, So like, will you support will you
pay fifty dollars so that we can go and take
this bill to Congress? A fifty dollars kind of feels
a bit different. What do you what do you feel
about that? Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think
especially you know when talking about like, oh, by this
and the proceeds go to this. I don't know why,

(48:18):
like lizard brain wise, that's like a quicker like oh great,
I'll do that. That's all done now, but it is
there's like a wrestling match that happens, and I'll acknowledge that,
like like I have. I've also done some donating recently,
but it's been this weird thing. I'm like, well, you
just donated that amount to that organization, but didn't you
spend more on leggings last week? And like trying to

(48:40):
check myself about like what money is okay to send where?
And then yeah, on top of that, you're getting I
mean like I woke up to two ads today that
was like, hey, by this shirt, the money goes to
this was various like LGBT plus organizations, but like you
wake up to that, You're seeing that imagery every day

(49:01):
and you're like, oh, I need to be helping and
need to be helping. It's it sort of hits a
point where like you want to be doing good things,
but also your brain is swirling because there are so
many ways to do it and so many ways to
do that wrong. For example, I just learned yesterday that
I had donated like eight dollars to basically boost the
visibility of a petition that I had signed, and then

(49:23):
I just was reading more specifically about how that organization
works and how like that eight dollars really didn't I
mean it's a small amount, but it didn't really go
to helping the cause that I cared about, you know.
It was more so visibility for the company that is
supporting that. Yeah, and they kind of they are not
very discerning about what that petition is about. They just like, see, oh,

(49:44):
you put eight dollars into this. Here, this, this eight
dollars goes into this algorithm boo boop beep beep beep business.
You know. They they rely on the ignorance of people
to not want to read the fine print and they
just go, oh, and I get to boost it, which
means I'm doing even a better thing. I think that's
an issue, is that people are profiting off of trying
to make other people feel like they're doing a good thing,

(50:04):
when sometimes it's you. You, you are doing a better
thing by signing a petition and sharing the petition with
all of your friends than it is signing a petition,
giving eight dollars and going on with your life as
a son of an immigrant as a person of color,
like I do feel I identify even though I am
not black and I don't identify as black. I support

(50:24):
the Black Lives Matter movement because I know that this
is what's right. Racial equality is what's right. So because
I'm identifying with that, I want to donate so much
that it makes me feel like I'm really in the fight. Because,
like you said, Kristen, I can't you know, I live
with people who are high risk for for COVID, so
I can't be out there in the field. But I
do know that what I haven't done a lot recently

(50:47):
since I started donating more and more is buying things online.
So there's this kind of nice um energy that's going
on that one. I'm feeling better because I'm I'm using
my money to donate to try and really make big changes.
And too, I'm not shopping online as much, so less
speedos are coming to the house. I know that we're
I think I'm talking about speedos so much we are

(51:07):
imagining I have like a full closet of speedos. It's
only two. I have two speedos. I bought one, actually
bought two, wanted to return one, never returned it lost
the date. So I have two speedos, one that doesn't
even fit me. It's an issue. Maybe you could donate
donate that second speedo. I should donate the second Speedo
And I don't know what that will do, but at
least I'll feel better about it. There's a whole another

(51:29):
big picture concept that I want to talk with you
guys about as well, though, which is the environmental aspect.
I cannot tell you how much cardboard and tape and
bubble rap and packing paper and all of that. Obviously,
the best thing we can do is to either reuse
or recycle the online purchases. But I think there's a

(51:52):
lot of things that that I don't even take into
account until i'm reading them from you know, the Guardians
article about delivery disaster, which is the iron mental costs
of online shopping. A third of solid waste in the
US comes from e commerce packaging. God, that's a lot.
And in this world it's like we're stuck. I mean,

(52:12):
maybe the changes we stop buying things online, but in
a world where that probably isn't going to happen, what
what can we do? What do you guys think? Oh,
for me, it's just like little baby steps wise, like
I'll do things like if i feel like I'm going
to order something from the same company within a certain
span of time, I'll try and double up so that

(52:33):
one box is being sent out instead of two. Some
some companies have options. I mean, I've been trying to
shy away from Amazon a little more lately, but they do.
That's like a thing on Amazon where it's like you
order five things and they're like, do you want them
all whenever they're immediately ready, or do you want them
all when we're ready to put them all on one
box for you and you can click that. I mean,

(52:53):
partly is just like checking out companies that I'm interested
in and checking out how they go about shipping things,
like there are companies that are mostly carbon neutral or
totally carbon neutral. Trying to do a little more research
into what I'm buying and where it's coming from. Yeah, definitely, Karen.
I will ask my neighbors, like I'm about to order

(53:15):
something from X y Z, I'm gonna get toothpaste, do
you need anything? And then we'll or a roommate or whatever,
like it doesn't have to be a neighbor, and then
you have a both order and then there's just one
box that is that I got to do that that
sounds like the ultimate. You know, I live with two
other people and I never never once said that. What

(53:35):
I'm realizing is I hate that answer that it's like
it's all about a balance. It really is, though, Like
it is about how can we efficiently do what we
know inevitably has to be done right, Like the reason
why we're all shopping online is because we have been
all advised to stay home so instead of going out,
instead of doing this, Like, so we are doing a

(53:56):
good thing and a bad thing is still coming out
of it, which is like environmental clasts or the environmental
aspect to it or uh, you know, requiring people to
deliver those products, which means there are people who have
who are not allowed to you know, these essential workers
who are not allowed to stay home and be safe,
and they have families, and so there's always going to

(54:17):
be an effect to things. So I guess the concept
in my mind. My biggest takeaway is thinking about ways,
like you had just mentioned, Karen, and you've mentioned through
the podcast, Kristen, ways that you can optimize asking my
roommates like, hey, I'm gonna buy something on Amazon. Does
anybody else wants something on Amazon so I can purchase
it all click this one link and then and so
it all gets sent in one box. So we're trying

(54:39):
to minimize our carbon footprint or ordering from carbon neutral
companies like you had said, Kristen. Um, but thank you
both so much your your input on on on this
unfortunately didn't solve the speedo problem, but it did solve
a lot of other questions and answer a lot of
other thoughts that I had in my mind. Um, So
I appreciate both of you. This is my moment and

(55:02):
I took away the shameless word. It is self promo
time because Karen hates there's no shame in promoting yourself.
So Karen hit us with a good old self promo. Excellent.
You can find me on Instagram or Twitter at k
e Replenish or my website Karen Erlkman dot com. I
love it, Kristen. Now that you've gotten a feel for it,

(55:24):
I'm gonna give yours a twist. I want you to
give a self promo. But because because Katherine, our producer,
applauded you as one of the funniest people, she knows
I also need you to to shout out one sketch
or one social media piece of content that I have
I can go look at right now. Because as funny
as you are on this podcast, Catherine did say you
are the funniest person she knows. So I need, I

(55:46):
need something that's going to prove to that. So if
it's a Funny or Die sketch, if it's a Comedy
Central sketch, if it's a BuzzFeed sketch, I need I
need to know. Okay, well, all right, so the basics.
I'm on Instagram at hashtag Kristen Hadley. That's literally the
word hashtag spelled out hashtag because I went Instagram free

(56:08):
for several years and then when I joined there was
like seventy pictures under the hashtag Kristen Henley dot com. Obviously,
now I'm thinking, is like an easy place to see
videos of me? Um? Yeah, and check out my podcast
Driving to Disneyland. Can can you explain to me your
podcast Driving to Disneyland? Because I already connect with the title,

(56:28):
and so I want to know what the what the
podcast is actually about. Okay, well here's how we got started.
My bff Catherine and I um have been like friends
who go to Disneyland together for several years before we
started the podcast, but essentially we found ourselves like having
our very best and most fun conversations, specifically while in

(56:49):
the car on the way to Disneyland, and so we
just we decided to commit to that, and so we
literally when non pandemic times allow, we literally do record
the podcast in the car. It's it's a good time
and it's a it's a comedy podcast that's super sick.

(57:10):
I love that it's spicy. Yes, it's Disney with swears.
It's Disney with salt on the rim. I like that. Yeah, Okay,
let's see a comedy sketch and I want to put
out there for you guys to enjoy. You know, there's one.
It's a weird one. You can find out on Funny
Your Die. There's a if you look up DJ Fawcett

(57:33):
that's the day of my old sketch team. We have
a whole episode of sketches on Funny or Die that
should pop up. And there's a sketch in there that
my friend wrote called Barnacle Cream that's real weird and
involves three of us like wandering around like crazy. Is
on a beach. That's one of my old favorites. I

(57:53):
like that. I like that. Well, everybody go check out
Barnacle Cream, check out Kristen Henley's Instagram, make sure you
check out Karen's You can all find me at alex
Iono on all social media. Um. But I also want
you to check our show notes. We mentioned it a
little bit, and I think it's very important at all
times that we look for places in which we can help,
whether it's donating money, donating time, donating energy, donating your attention,

(58:16):
or donating your brain to learn more and consistently make
a good change in the world. Um and if you've
been shopping online too much, then we can dilute some
of that online shopping by making some some really good
charitable contributions. But we love you guys, have an incredible day,
and we'll talk with you soon. Basically, we really want

(58:40):
you to get the help you need, so if you
need help, please seek independent advice from a competent healthcare
or mental health professional. The views and opinions expressed in
this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or
individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the
opinions of my heart Media, or its employees. This podcast
should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, counseling,
or therapy. Listening to the podcast has not established doctor

(59:01):
patient relationship with hosts or guests of ALEXIONO, Let's Get
Into It or I Heartmedia. No guarantee is given regarding
the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on this podcast, Wolf,
That's a Doozy