The Next Right Thing: with Propaganda + Holly Laurent

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Alex, and I voted. But now what
do I do? No, alright, alright, We'll be alright forever. No, alright, alright,
alright forever. I'm gonna tell you guys my story about uncertainty,

(00:24):
because that's kind of how I feel right now, and
that's kind of how I think a lot of people
have felt for the last four years. Um. But before
we get into how it's been for the last four years,
I'll tell you guys how the last few days have been. Um.
Today it is November six, Uh, it is Friday, Um,
the Friday after election day, which was now four days ago,
and it's been an interesting one. And UH, for the

(00:48):
last four days, I've been wildly uncertain. I've been in
the studio writing, and out of the four sessions I've had,
I've written one song. Uh. Most of them have just
been all of us talking about what the hell the
world's gonna look like. Um, they're still counting ballots at
this point. Uh. Nevada announced that they're not going to
be done until Saturday Sunday. UM, we've had a few

(01:08):
swing states already, flip, We've had just it's just been
an insane amount of time Um, but it's been really
really interesting for me because I really don't know kind
of what's next. Like I feel like I'm playing a
video game and I and were and there's a really
really hard level and um, you know, I'm not going
to speak too soon, but we potentially beat that hard

(01:30):
level and you celebrate because you beat the level, but
then now you got the rest of the game to play.
And uh, and I think where I'm not, where I'm
at now is trying to figure out, um, what the
game is that's next or what the next level is. Um,
you know, obviously knock on wood. Again, I don't want
to speak too soon, but Joe Biden becoming president doesn't
mean that racial injustice is all solved. And it doesn't

(01:53):
mean that um my l g B t Q plus
you know, brothers, sisters and non gender conforming family member
is are are completely uh you know, protected in every
state and every city. And it doesn't mean that all
of the problems are solved, especially with our environment, but
it is, as it is potentially again a win that
I think that we need to to celebrate. But I

(02:14):
think most of the time, I have a great story
right now, I'm I'm wildly uncertain, and that got me thinking,
how do we figure out the next right thing? No,
what's up, y'all? Welcome to let's get into it. I'm
alex Iono and this is our podcast that is post
election day, but not necessarily post election. We are in

(02:36):
a weird, a weird situation. Uh. And and when I
say we, it means I have I have the help
of two very very smart people and and I'm gonna
introduce you to them right now. First, we got hip
hop artist also a poet, political activists and m c
co host of the Red Couch podcast with his wife.
Dr Alma Sarrego is a petty and you may know

(02:57):
him from shows like Behind the Police with Robert Evans,
the One and only propaganda prop What's up? Man? What what? What?
What Up? What a day? Oh man? What a day?
And we can we'll talk about it a bit, but
first I want to introduce our other, our other guests.
She is the creator and the host of the hit
podcast Mega and is regularly featured on a p m
S Live from Here. She's an alumnus of the Second

(03:19):
City main Stage in Chicago, as well as the founding
member of the long standing improv group The Reckoning. She also,
a fun fact if you're a drunk history fan, holds
the record for the highest blood alcohol on one of
the seasons, and that she appeared, and also might hold
the record for most tears in the previous season, which
I don't even know if we give trophies, if we

(03:41):
if we pat on the back or if we I
don't know. But she is the also one and only
Holly Laurent. Holly, how are you so good? So uncertain?
Just like you, you know how when you're walking around
town and like there's a sports bar that kind of
like erupts at the same time everyone starts screaming because

(04:03):
like someone kicked a goal and you're like, whoa, what happened?
Everybody's excited. I keep thinking we're going to hear that
any minute about the election of like is everybody screaming?
Is it good? And and and like I had mentioned,
not we're not going to try and lie about what
day it is today because we are wildly uncertain it
is Friday, the day after or the first Friday after
election day. Um. We have Catherine um my producer here,

(04:27):
who has got one ear with us in one ear
on the on news right now, and she's gonna let
us know if anything crazy happens during this episode recording.
But we all three of us, I'm excited that I'm
not the only one who's uncertain. I think that's the
basis of my whole podcast in general, is like making
people feel like whatever they're feeling are going through, they're

(04:47):
not the only person. Um. And I'm excited to talk
about you know, everything about that. We're gonna talk about first, Um,
prop you and I are gonna be talking about kind
of living with indecision and living in and kind of
navigating lie life when when you don't really know what's
what's coming next. Uh. And then after that, Holly, you
and I are going to be talking about reckoning with
the future pun intended. Um. And then lastly, all three

(05:10):
of us are going to be talking about the soul
of the nation. I think it's a very interesting time.
And Um, the numbers were staggering in a great way
and staggering in a in a sad way in terms
of how many people voted, but at the same time
also the amount of people that's still kind of support um,
you know, Donald Trump. This is a very clear podcast,
and I always talk about where I stand. But before

(05:31):
we get into that stuff, UM, I want to ask
a question that I ask all of my guests, especially now,
especially now that we are past the election. Um, what
are you doing this week to improve yourself? This week?
I have voted. I voted this week, and that's what
I did to to better myself. I actually had sent

(05:51):
in my vallot a while ago, but because this is
election week, I figured that would be the best thing
for me. You know, I think voting while I vote
it in the past, this this election and this vote
that I've put in, and as we've seen in the
numbers that have been insanely close, Um, every person's vote matters.
And so it felt it felt a lot different, a

(06:12):
lot better, and a lot it felt very powerful to
vote this week. And so I get to proudly say
that that's what I did to better myself this week.
I know it's kind of a cop out, but I
think it makes me feel good. Um, Holly, do you
got something for me? I was actually patting myself on
the back yesterday because I was like, damn, I made
my bed, I got dressed and bathed today, and that's

(06:35):
there we go. That's a big pandemic win. That's a
pandemic win right there. Yeah, and um, I think in general,
the word for me right now that I'm clinging to
is it's it's somewhere between listen and like channel. I
feel like as artists we are kind of supposed to

(06:57):
be like radios right now, like putting up antenna's and
just channeling and like the wisdom the way the patients.
I don't know. I I do t M. I practiced,
I practice the specific TM meditation and that's the only
way I've really been able to get dressed and make
my bed this week. We'll look at that. That's a win.

(07:17):
That's a win for sure. Prop What do you got
for us? Yeah? I think for me, uh, similarly, like
just holding to my like daily rituals and traditions to
like keep the discipline of like waking up, doing some
sort of mindful meditation, some sort of breathing exercise, working
out yoga, like just knowing it ain't got to be pretty,

(07:41):
you know what I'm saying, Like I'm not the most
you know, you know, you know Instagram videos trying to
trying to downward dog out this mug, but uh, making
sure like making myself despite what's happening in the world,
be like no, you can't break rhythm. So I think
for me, which is like new you know what I'm saying,
would be like usually like when when when it's like

(08:02):
you gear up for like the stressful moment, and then
when the stress comes, like you forget all your training,
you know I'm saying, So like, ah, for me, it
was like, yo, this is the first time I got
stuck with it in like kept that calm you know
what I'm saying, and made myself like y'all remember your
remember your training. You know what I'm saying, right, right,
So I think for me, like that's that's the win
this week, man. I mean that's a major when I

(08:24):
think it's specifically on what you had just said in
terms of um sticking to your you know, sticking to
what you know is right, whether it's waking up early,
whether it's getting your meditation, whether it's doing yoga, whether
it's eating healthy, any of those things. Especially in times
right now and we're we're obviously going to talk about it,
I think it's very important to stick to your metaphorical
guns and uh and and really you know, hold true

(08:47):
to what you know makes you, you know, the most
productive and successful version of yourself. All right, let's let's
talk about some uncertainty. Holly, We'll be with you in
just a bit, but prop um, Yeah, let's get into it.
How have you been processing I mean, you had mentioned
um already that you you are. You know, it's very
uncertain times right now, and I think all of America

(09:09):
is sitting in this uncertainty. How have you been processing? Um,
those those nerves, those feelings mask good man. Uh yeah,
I think of a lot of things. I think that,
like how I'm doing with it. You know, I'm like
the election updates. You know, I'm saying like you gotta
check every hour you feel me like because maybe right

(09:32):
maybe an hour ago, I was like, are you kidding me?
I'm floating, bro, Like I'm in a state of nirvana,
you know what I'm saying. But I think, like, overall,
a few things that I do is I always try to, like,
I mean, I'm a history nerd, you know, I always
try to like couch whatever moment I'm having in the
context of like a longer history and try to remember that, like, Okay,

(09:57):
when has it ever been certain? You say it? When
if we when if we ever known what was going on?
You know what I'm saying, right when? You know when?
And then like if y'all can't see this on the pod,
but y'all in this video or can't tell by my
voice in case you ain't noticed, I'm black, you know
I'm saying, so like when when has it been peaceful
for black America? You feel me so like me trying

(10:18):
to couch that that not as an excuse, but as
like a rudder if you will that like, Okay, this
isn't any sort of aberration. You know. We make treasure
out of trash. That's what we do all the time. Um,
we shouldn't have to live this way, but here we are,
you know what I'm saying. So I think that for me,

(10:40):
that's one thing I try to remember. And then just
like you know, keep a uh you know, a gratitude
lists of like things that I'm like actually thankful for
even in the midst of this chaos, you know what
I'm saying. That like you know, was and and it's
as as I got older, like saying things like, yo,

(11:00):
you have a roof over your head. You know when
you're a kid, you like Okay, great, dad saying like, yeah,
there's a house. I mean you live in it too,
Like it's fine, you know what I'm saying. But like
now as an adult being like, dang, God, like our
economy said, we could have lost we could have lost
our place to live, you know what I mean, And like, dang,

(11:21):
what would I do? How would I feed my children?
Like like I'm grateful that that didn't happen, you know, absolutely,
So yeah, for me, it's like, you know, just like
I said, like couching in history, kind of remembering that
like we never really had certainty. You know. I'm I'm
so glad that you I'm so glad that you said
you're bringing up history because that's something that I've kind

(11:43):
of you know, I talked to a bunch of people
and and whether it's somebody's like, well, don't forget like
the two thousand election was really close to and they
we're talking about history, and and there's a balance because
like you mentioned, when have when has there ever been
you know, certainty and it's fullness. But also on the
other end of that is like we are so insanely
unprecedented right now. Like I remember seeing a video that

(12:04):
was posted last night of George Bush Senior giving his
speech after losing the election and saying, you know, I
that's the American way, It's what makes American beautiful. I'm I'm,
me and my team are going to do everything we
can to make this flow of in this transition of power.
And you really start thinking like that's I think not

(12:24):
to play Devil's Advocate, and I probably will most of
this episode because wild was certain but like, while there
is like, yeah, there's never been uncertainty, but there's also
been There's also never been somebody who is if everything
continues on the trajectory that has been on the last
twenty four hours, there's never been a squatter in the
White House, you know. So it's like it's there's an

(12:49):
old reference, Like I mean, it's a little bit it's
more like my sister's jen. I'm the youngest in my family,
but like in my sister's Jin, the like the first
generation of video games, you only programmed a certain amount
of space, and there would be a time that like
your little your little you know, bit map like eight

(13:10):
big character would go to a place where there's no graphics,
and it was like because they didn't make they didn't
have the memory for that, graphics didn't go that part. Why,
you know what I'm saying. So you're just like where
You're like, I don't know how my character got out here,
but there's nothing over here, yo said. So in a
lot of ways, we were like, Yo, we off the
map now, like we really are. We just got everybody's

(13:34):
just gotta start painting some new stuff and spirals and circles.
So don't get me wrong, Like we definitely off the map,
you know what I'm saying. Um, And that said, I
mean America itself was off the map, Like you know
what I'm saying. There was like when I when I

(13:54):
think about the idea of like a president in general,
like if you would right now have to say, I
need to make up out of the clear blue sky,
a new version of the head of a government. I
just make one up, you know what I'm saying. Like
it's like we are that's where, but that's where we

(14:15):
were when we started the country. It was just like,
what is it? What is the president? There's no such
thing there was, There's no such thing as a president.
So we were like, well, we don't know what this is.
We don't know how to pick him. How do we
not make him just a monarch? Well he's not a
prime minister. Well he's not. It's not the church, was
it the state? Like? What is this thing? So like
even being off the map, We've been off the map before,

(14:39):
you know what I'm saying. So I'm not saying that
that's any comfort. You know what I'm saying, Like, it
don't make me feel better, It don't ease the anxiety again.
It just but it like for me, it's like there's
a map for being off the map, if I can
mix my metaphor you know, yeah, absolutely. Um So I

(14:59):
think now again, back to back to history now, because
I do have some some questions that I really think
that you might have great answers to. Um. I think
I rewind the clock back to when Obama was president, right,
and I think a lot of us kind of we
were just celebrating. It was all good. Everybody was chilling.
We kind of were in this mode of like, don't worry,
Obama's got it, we got this, don't worry about it.

(15:22):
And I think what actually happened, Um, you know, I
think it really kind of muddied the importance of voting
still and I think not enough progressives voted in two
thousen and two twelve, and then we kind of spent
the next six years hitting roadblocks which ended up of
course here in twenty or not here. But they're in
with you know, this new guy in the White House.

(15:44):
Do you think that if, um, if Biden, if the
if the path continues on its on its way now
and Biden becomes the president, do you think that he
will be able to make more progress or do you
think that we are you know where where do you
where do you stand with that? That's a good question.
And I think like the the the reality of like
yeah again, like we're off the map, so like predictions

(16:07):
are silly, you know. Uh, but I will say this,
like yeah, it's hard to say, like when you have
someone like a firebrand, just like whatever the hell Trump was,
like the to be able to like survey the effects

(16:29):
on our democracy. Like I think we may not even
know for years the effects of what he's done to
our democracy. Um. And I also know that like no
one president is the answer, you know what I'm saying. Um.
I think going back to what you said, like we
were lulled into this like superman, Um. Sort of complex,

(16:54):
like we got lazy, you know, UH as a country
with Obama because he was so smooth, because he was
so well spoken, and even like I even you know,
as a black man, I'm like, I'll always give him
a pass like I can't help it. But at the
same time, I'm like, there were decisions I think he made,
like in our geopolitics that I was like, man, that's
not I don't know fam like his some of his

(17:15):
some of his uh immigration issues I'm married at first
gin Latina. I was like, yo, you know what I'm saying,
Like you're kind of hard hard on our immigrants, you
know what I'm saying. Like, So there was some stuff
that like, even in me being happy with who he was,
I felt like his moral compass was was Um was great,
But I honestly don't think we're ever going to go

(17:36):
back to brunching, Like yeah, no, I mean, I think
this is It reminds me. It reminds me of an
interaction I had with UM with somebody who commented on
one of my voting posts, and basically it said, you know,
there's no point in voting for Joe Biden. There's no
point in voting for for Trump, because like, neither of
them are going to make a difference, and and we
might as well just keep Trump because at least he's

(17:58):
doing stuff, and he had, you know, kind of had
that whole stance. He's like, I don't like him, but
we might as well stay. And I really like instead
of kind of bashing or going back, and like, I
just messaged him and I was just like, listen, man,
like we gotta start little by little. Like I I personally,
I am of the end. Maybe I'm a little bit
too cynical, but like I agree with you in the
sense of, like I don't think one president is going

(18:19):
to make a huge difference, which is why I think
even if he wins, I still feel uncertain, which is
why I'm doing this episode, you know. But I think
my own personal view is if we keep voting the
same way that we voted and hopefully it pans out,
But if we keep voting the way that we voted
in and we vote with our hearts, and that was

(18:40):
something that I said a lot leading up to election day,
is like voting with your heart, not with your party,
not with your family, not with your friends, but with
your heart. And I think if we keep doing that,
then we can start making real progress. And I think
a lot of us learned that. Yeah. I feel like
one of my one of my principles I always try
to say is like I vote with Mike, my neighbors, uh,

(19:03):
best interests, you know what I'm saying. Like, so I
try to think of like who is this, what is this?
Who's going to be the most oppressed in this in
this decision? And I try to think of whatever it
is and put it, put myself in their shoes and
be like, how would I vote if this was going
to cause pain to someone I love? You know what
I'm saying, and kind of try to like use that
as like my moral compass, but also say this man

(19:24):
even specifically to that, to that um, to that post. Uh.
I think of like what's what's what's a good example.
If you're gonna make a chicken dinner. Okay, yes, you're
gonna make a chicken dinner. Uh, the absolute very least

(19:47):
you can do is cook the chicken. You gotta cook it. Okay,
that's that's voting. Now It's gonna be some bland ass
chicken if you don't season it up, Like can you
put some like salt and pepper and some peprika dog.
Like you understand what I'm saying, Like, yeah, like you

(20:08):
gotta like you gotta season the chicken. You feel me,
And that's your activism, that's you continuing to participate in
the process and and learning and going too things. That's
so like and like, which is what you're saying, is like,
it's the long game. You gotta keep seasoning his chicken.
Now that said, you can't just season chicken and then
not cook it right, so you need both so exactly

(20:32):
to that point. You know, Um, if Biden wins, there's
a lot of uh, there's a lot of things that
he clearly wants to do in support of, you know,
in support of the Black Lives Matter movement, in support
of LGBT plus rights, in supportive healthcare, and support of
um climate change or not in supportive climate in fight
we feel you climate change. You gotta get me. Um,

(20:52):
I'm not gonna pin every you know, I'm not gonna
pin every different type of person in every group and
every oppressed people. Um for you to answer. But I
think more specifically, you know, I think I still I
still feel like we are not even close to the
middle of the fight for racial equality and for really

(21:13):
kind of uprooting and getting rid of the systemic racism.
Even though now we've won, and you know, like that
was kind of like the biggest thing, you know, I
think I kept replaying in my mind killer Mike saying,
you know, beat him up in the polls, and everybody's saying,
if you want to get back, don't loot stores, like
go and vote. And now we've run that as a
black man, as somebody who is you know, woke in

(21:35):
every you know, in every facet. What's something that you
would recommend for allies, um, to the Black Lives Matter
movement specifically, UM, but to just allies of of of
all of the you know, and not to group everybody together,
but all of those oppressed groups of people. What's what's
what would you recommend for the for the allies more specifically,

(21:57):
if we could have a good outcome of this man,
that's good. And I think like there's a lot of like,
you know, kind of listening and trust us, you know
what I'm saying that, like, you know, we kind of
been in there, uh, and usually bear the brunt of
the pain and then also lead the charge in fixing
you know what I'm saying. Um, So I think a

(22:20):
little bit of like yeah, like like trust us, you
know what I'm saying, and um, and trust us when
it's like when it's not in style, you know, when
it's gonna cost you a little bit, like like trust us,
you know what I'm saying. Um, We've constantly are calling
America too to be its best version of itself. Like

(22:44):
that's that's the attitude of justice work is like, Yo,
you made promises. I'm just I'm gonna demand you to
be what you said you were going to be. You
know what I'm saying. I'm not gonna let off the gas. Um.
I think you know this isn't the question you asked me.
But like conversely, I think what we can do as
black people is while like you're kind of having to

(23:07):
hold two ideas at the same time, right, So like
holding the idea of the specificity of just the anti
black sentiment across the board, that there is a specificity
about the prejudice of being dark skinned, black slave descendant.
There's there's something very specific about that. That said, understanding
interlocking systems, how our freedom is is intertwined with the

(23:33):
freedoms of the immigrant, the l g B t Q,
the trans community, and how like all of those things
play into a collective freedom, um and just and remembering
that like you know, I I oftentimes remember this in
a in a unfortunately like these are things that have
to course correct, often in a very like cynical way,

(23:56):
to be like, um, oh, they're gonna come for you too,
you bro, liked you? Don't you think you different? You
know what I'm saying, Like they're gonna come for you,
you know, um, rather than saying like no, bro, listen,
it's gonna crush you too, like from a more loving perspective,
you know what I'm saying. Um, So I think while

(24:16):
again like I can't stress this enough, like not abandoning
the uniqueness of the specificity of being of anti black
sentiment at the same time understand that like yo, the
liberation of all oppressed people, you know, is a part
of our own liberation too, absolutely so yeah, so I
just think that like what I would ask for allies.
It's like yo, just like man, trust like like trust me,

(24:38):
trust me Joe saying like we we no. It's it's
a great point. And if you if you if you
aren't familiar with Problems podcasts. UM. You talk a lot
about ally ship like that, and I think these next
few days they're either going to be incredible and we're
gonna be like, Wow, this is awesome, or they're gonna
be like a letdown and we're gonna be like, Okay,
let's keep going. And I think not in a bad way,

(25:01):
but I really hope that either way, that it goes
people of of every walk of life, whether you're an
ally or whether you are in the middle of it.
I hope that we all feel the fire that we felt,
you know that. I hope we still all and not
even feel, but still all have that fire that we've
felt since June three or or you know, since since

(25:23):
we've started, you know, since the uprising of you know,
the Black Lives Matter movement and the fight against racial
injustice UM started. I just I really hope no matter
what that happens, UM, probably you are again insanely well rounded,
and by the way, you're academic. I want to point
that out. You are academic, but outside of the election,

(25:44):
you're an artist, you know, and as as a fellow artist,
uncertainty isn't something that only happens every four years. During
the election. I think, especially when you are an entrepreneur,
whether you are fighting for whether you're going to school
even and you're trying to get a job, uncertain t
runs rampant through life, right. Yeah. The biggest, the biggest

(26:04):
quote that I think of is Winston Churchill's um quota
saying like, if you're going through hell, keep going and
uh and and that's something that really is always stuck
with me every time I'm going through a hard time. Um,
but what advice do you have for anybody outside of politics?
Because by the time this air is it could be
the airing on Tuesday, and like you never know that
everything to be different by Tuesday. But what's your advice

(26:25):
for for uncertainty in general? People going through that, dealing
with that? Um and and and what would you what
would you give to the listener who is still uncertain
about things that aren't politics. Yeah, that's man, that's good man.
Um to try to not I'm gonna try to synthesize it,
because yeah, like being an artist, you you just gather
so many different like small moments and try to put

(26:48):
them into one one thing to be like, yo, this
is this is it. You know what I'm saying, um,
But I think ultimately it's like you keep your feet
under you, you know what I'm saying, You keep the
sky above you. You do your best to like you
worry about what's in your what's in your arms, reach,
what is available to you. Nipsey, Um, you know got

(27:09):
rest his soul. Nipsey would talk about like his movement
was always like I used what was available to me
when we when we had a closet and a USB mic,
we made albums with a closet and the USB MIC.
When we were able to get like a back room studio,
we used the back room studio. And then we went
to Universal and then and now we're there. You know,

(27:31):
we use what's about. We don't worry about. We don't
worry about more than what we have. We don't worry
about what we don't have it at, what we don't
have access to we can. We we worry about what's
in our hands. So I think that like as an artist,
you know, as an entrepreneur, like look, man, if there's
no venture capitalist knocking on your door, cool Trump said,

(27:51):
it's fine, use what you got, you know, um, and
then like just you know, to get woo woo on you,
like just the outcome, the outcomes out of your hands somehow.
The outcome is it's divine, it's magic, it's you know,

(28:12):
it's something it's not material, you know what I mean.
So I just think when you when you focus on that,
on that thing, that's like there's no math for for me.
That's where like the anxiety starts happening, you know what
I'm saying. Where I'm like, I'm trying to control something
that like it's just not on there's it's just not empirical.

(28:32):
There's no there's no material for this, you know what
I'm saying. So I just think like when you let
things that are immaterial, just let them be that, Let
let divine be divine. Let let the magic be the magic,
and you just you again, keep your feet under you,
do what's available to you and rest at rest, your
rest your head at night knowing that you gave a

(28:55):
dent and and even if you didn't have a hundred percent,
all you have left. Cool. Bro. That is a perfect
way for us to end this segment, because that's what
I think is the is the you know, the kryptonite
to uncertainty is like you said, keeping your keeping your
feet under you, the sky above you, and just keep

(29:18):
on going through it. We're gonna take a quick break
when we come back. Um, Holly's gonna hop on. Prop
Thank you so much. We'll talk with you in a bit,
my pleasure. We'll be right back. We are back. This
is let's get into it, Holly. We are here with
you right now. Um, we are reckoning with the future.
How have before we get into that, how have your
nerves been? I I got to ask prop this where

(29:40):
where where's your head been last four days or the
last four years? Really? I mean it's been a roller coaster.
And um, a year ago, I remember starting to think
where am I going to place myself in the world
for the election, Like maybe it's best to like go
to Joshua Tree and do a bunch of psychedelics and

(30:01):
just blast off and be like I'll check in in
a week and like I'm not gonna like go on
the whole emotional ride. Um. But then there was something
about the Dodgers winning the World Series last week where
I started thinking, I was like, two teams come into
the World Series. Neither of those teams come in saying,

(30:24):
oh boy, this could go real bad for us. They
each come in saying I'm going to take this because
like we are going to win because we're the best.
And I was like, why are we all shaking being
like this could go so bad for us? We need

(30:44):
to be like we're the best. There's actually more of
us and we're the best team. And so I got
a ton of swagger going into actual election day and
then um, and then I got a little bit shaken
by Tuesday night. I was like, I guess, uh, Game

(31:05):
one did not go your way and um, and I
kind of faltered and I got very sad to just
see the numbers again of like, my god, his support
has gone up. Half a quarter of a million people
are dead and his support has gone up, and uh,

(31:26):
and white women have increased their like after everything. It's
it's it's sobering to say the least, and it's worrisome.
And yes, it's incredible numbers showing up to vote, thank goodness.
But I am I also am like it might be
because we have never been so divided. We used to

(31:49):
have shitty turnout because everyone's like, yeah, well you know,
and now everybody's like no, my team, no, my team,
you know, like it can be kind of worrisome, but
like I I honestly think it's it's huge. Like even
if we just take the White House, it's huge because
at least we can get some cabinet members in there

(32:09):
who are actual experts and who have hearts in their chest,
and like we can start working on things like police reform,
voter suppression. There's there's so much work to be done,
and it's time to start now. And like what I
think a ton of white people woke up to this
summer was like, oh, when when we keep saying like, oh,
the system is broken America, system is broken, we're like, no, no, no,

(32:31):
it was designed to to keep white men in power.
It's working perfectly, like the if you study the history
of the police in the United States, it is built
on racism. The electoral college is built on racism. Like
we have things in place to keep women and people
of color small and quiet and oppressed and and and

(32:52):
with with a knee on their necks and like and
and the system is right now like actual the voice
of the people is having a moment, But there's so
much work to be done. And if we take the
White House but not the Senate, and if that Mitch
McConnell is an obstructionist, like like the what they like,

(33:15):
what they did to Obama and and no policy can
be made. That is a much different story than if
this runoff in Georgia helps us tie up the Senate
and we can actually create laws. So like what's happening
in the Supreme Court right now, Yes it is stacked
against us, but the Court's job is to interpret the law.
They don't make the laws. So we made the Senate

(33:35):
so we can make the laws to protect our brothers
and sisters and family members. We make the laws in
the Senate and then the court interprets them. So like
now there's so much work to be done. Goodness gracious.
The trial of George Floyd's murders is still coming up,
like ship is going to get wild and really weird,
and like there's you're exactly right, what you what you

(33:59):
were both talking about, Like there's so much uncertainty, and
it's true, like we're always uncertain, like we're always improvising.
I'm actually an improv teacher and I'm always telling my
students like you're always improvising, like unless you're actually in
a movie or TV show or a play and you're
on book like saying words that someone else wrote for you.

(34:19):
Any other time besides those moments like you're improvising and
so everything is unsure all the time. And um, I
think like we have such a fight on our hands
and none of us have a crystal ball, and um man,
it's anybody's ball game. But uh, I mean I think

(34:41):
between now in January with the Georgia runoff, it's going
to be very very interesting. Alright, so number one go off,
then like number one, number two you can now add
next time somebody does a bio for you as an
intro to um to their podcast asks, not only are
you the highest blood alcohol level on drunk history, you're

(35:04):
also the first person to say the C word on
my podcast. So that's pretty fun. There's really no other
way to describe Mitch McConnell. It's just it's the only
appropriate adjective. Wait, wait, wait, this is the funniest conversation
I've had in a long time, because I just feel

(35:25):
like there's so much wrong with that man that like
some of the stuff is just like low hanging fruit
that I'm like, I want to stick to. What is
like why he's so dangerous to our country. But but
my brain gets so full of the things you're saying,
because I'm going that, like, he looks like a turtle,

(35:47):
and I don't understand how anyone can Like when you
stand in front of me, I'm like, I can't think
of anything else except that you look like a turtle,
Like how do you? How is anyone like? How can you?
How do I take you? And I'm like, it's like
it's one of those things. It's like it's like the
blue It's like the eight underground gorilla, like the white

(36:10):
oleman in the room. How it's like, how come nobody's
acknowledging the fact that this man looked like a turtle?
Like can we acknowledge that he looks like a turtle?
He also sounds like a turtle. He sounds like a
car tool turtle. And this is probably the probably the
meanest disk you can make, because it's actually sadly true.
He doesn't read out loud very well. You can't read

(36:34):
out loud well. And that's the biggest disk that I
think if somebody told me that, I would be devastated.
If somebody said, hey, Alex, you can't read out loud
really well, I would be so devastated because that's such
a crushing blow. Uh. And that's and and that just
the way that that's the way the cookie crumbles. All right,
So where are we? Okay? So one go off to

(36:54):
you're the first person to say the sea word on
my podcast, which is exciting. We're really getting spicy these days. Um,
because you just came at me with the biggest fireball,
I'm I'll return your fire with my UM disheartened feelings.
I guess it is that I saw throughout for the
last four days. Um, and it was that even though

(37:16):
Joe Biden has the most votes for him in presidential
history and he's you know, he's clearly winning the popular vote,
I really was disheartened by how many people came out
and voted for Trump still after the last four years.
And I think that the biggest thing I remember is
my manager Billy had said, UM, when you're going to

(37:37):
the polls, think about if you are happier with your
life than you were four years ago. And I know
for a fact. I mean, I obviously I'm very lucky,
I met my girlfriend the last four years. I love life.
I love these things. But like in terms of where
we are as a world zero percent, and so I
think it's it's it was really disheartening for me, and
I think for a lot of people, uh to see

(38:01):
you know, to see so many places still go yeah,
we should do this, let's run that back, let's do
that thing again. What advice do you have for anybody
who's feeling that way? I honestly, when I try to
wrap my head around it, I'm like, what is going on?
Because we know that we are operating with two totally
different pieces of information, Like we are living in uh,

(38:26):
two information bubbles, Like people who are watching Fox News
have a totally different perspective of the world than we do.
We're operating with different information period. But I I sit
and think about um, people who vote for Trump, and
I'm like, even if they just even if they're not
listening to what the commentators tell them to believe, if
they just listen to the words out of the horse's mouth, still,

(38:49):
how can they justify it? And I the only thing
I can come up with is, I think it's that
people want to be um. They're looking out for theirs.
They're looking out for their their jobs, their security, their
white privilege, and they want to maintain that it's comfortable,

(39:10):
it's familiar, it's cozy, and like prop was saying that
the damage that has been done will continue to reveal
itself to us for years, because even if we were
to take the House, the Senate and the and the
the Oval Office, like Trump has riled up like and
and given created space and made room for people who

(39:31):
have been quietly racist for a really long time to
now be overtly racist, and and that is really scary
and I and I feel like um uh in the
way like John Lewis talked about, like to to really
create change, like people are going to be beaten and killed,
like even to get the vote that happened, and I

(39:54):
think that that might happen again. Like where it's going,
like ship is going to get very very intense, Like
how much of an ally are you? How much of
an ally? Am I? What am I willing to do?
Am I going to like stay behind lock and key
and get really quiet when the ship starts to hit
the fan, because like this is going to be an

(40:17):
interesting fight and and Trump has riled up his base
and who knows, Like even it's it seems like we're
waiting for really good news right now in terms of
the presidency. But then what's the backlash going to be?
I mean, right now we have this flaming orange ball
of vulgarity that is the backlash to Obama. Like, what
is the backlash to this gonna be? It's it's it's

(40:39):
a it's unnerving. But um, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think
I think the thing that that came to mind while
you were speaking is the orange backlash Trump was the
backlash to Obama, and now we are looking at what
is this backlash too to Trump? And here and you

(41:00):
talk about being an ally and I think the backlash
where I stand, and it's obviously in a hopeful place,
is like the backlash is love. I think that a
lot of the time, especially this year, we've talked about
its got to get worse to get better, and I
think that as shitty as it feels and as shitty
as it is, it's gotten worse. And I think we're

(41:22):
still in the worse. And my hope is that if
the backlash to Trump can be love, if the backlash
like shoutouts to Arizona my hometown have never been more
proud to say from Arizona than this election. But like
if our backlash too, Arizona, which has been for a
long time just conservative. We're not increasing the education budget,

(41:43):
We're not you know, legalizing marijuana. We're gonna stay red.
We're gonna support you know, um division, and we're gonna
But now we're here, I think if we combat all
of this and the backlash too, Donald Trump is taking
care of each other and taking care of our country
and taking care of our plan it it's gonna be
a process. And I think where you were talking about allies,

(42:04):
and it's how much of an ally are you? Are
you an ally enough that you can disarm your friends
and family and hug them and welcome them into the
love club or you know, whatever it is of inclusivity
and acceptance. I know I sound like a hippie as
I'm saying all of this ship, but like I really
do feel that that is the way, not in the polity,

(42:26):
in the political sense, but in the human sense, that
we become the backlash of of you know, of Trump. Um.
But I want to get back to something else that
you said in your in your amazing which I think
could be like the your rant, like it was just
you like literally I was like, yeah, but what about oh,
she's and then she covered it. It It was incredible. Um,
I want to talk about you know, you had mentioned

(42:47):
like the fight's not over and we have, you know,
George Floyd's murder trials. We have still the fight for
racial justice and um, whether that be in the form
of reparations, whether it be in the form of police reform,
whether it be in the form of you know, whatever
have you. You have the fight to continue fighting for
lgbt Q plus rights. With Amy Colmbarrett as a Supreme
Court justice, we are now going to literally be fighting

(43:10):
for women's reproductive rights. All of these fights right, and
it does still feel like even though we knocked one
of those things off the list, which was getting out
and voting, we still have so many things to do
and we still feel super uncertain. We still feel super unstable.
How do we find what is the next right thing?
Just like the same way that it was, our focus

(43:31):
was we need to vote, We need to vote, We
need to vote. We still were protesting, you know, Black
Lives Matter. We still were outside of Jackie Lacey's house,
you know, protesting. We're still like doing all those things.
Now that that sector has gone, how do we find
out Okay, what do we all do next? You know,
properly talked about how as an ally UM to the
Black Lives Matter movement and that, and as an ally
to any of an oppressed group of people, the best

(43:54):
thing we can do is listen. What do you think
I guess is the next move? Where do we sin?
Who should we listen to? Who do you think should
be leading the next fight, the next charge. I think
Killer Mike did an incredible job and was very, very
crucial to how Georgia ended up voting because he is
such a hero out there, especially in Atlanta. UM, I

(44:15):
know I just turned that question into seven million questions,
but let me let me go back to the main question,
which is how do we find out what the next
right thing to do is. One of my favorite teachers,
trans woman named Alexandra Billings one time said to me,
when the student is ready, the teacher appears. And that's

(44:37):
some Nanny McPhee shit, Remember Nanny McPhee where it's like,
when you need me, I'll be there. And it was
just like, sorry, that just turned me there. I agree,
and I have been feeling that in my life. I
realized that more and more what she meant that, UM,
I start to realize that as I experience heart openings
and that word you said, listen, the more I listen,

(44:58):
and we're in a reply culture now where everyone's just
screaming and it's it's it's not productive. Um. The more
I listen, the more I start recognizing teachers everywhere, like
they are around us. But until you are ready, like you,
you cannot hear them. They're there and they're talking. But UM,

(45:19):
I am seeing these teachers emerged. There's a teacher. There's
a teacher. There's a teacher, you know, Killer Mike Rick Rubin,
anyone who is speaking to you on on a level
where it's rattling your cage, where it's ringing your bell
a little bit like oh, that makes me feel uncomfortable
or curious or or challenged in some way. When the
student is ready, the teacher appears. And what I truly

(45:41):
think is not to be all hippie ship like you
were saying. But I do think that it's love. And
I think that I can only control me, and so
I think who I have to listen to first and
foremost as I as I make myself available to the
teaching of the teachers who are emerging around me. I
have to learn how to listen to myself better my intuition.

(46:04):
I have to listen to my anger, because our anger
is information. Especially I don't know about for you being guys,
but for me as a as a female, Like, we've
really been trained culturally to hide and disapprove of and
avoid our anger. It's not lady like, you know, it's not.

(46:26):
And and I've come to a point of like, oh,
my anger is here to help me. My anger is
here as clear information. So I can listen to my
anger and say, like, what is my anger telling me? Oh,
anger happens when a boundary has crossed. You've crossed a
boundary and it has fueled, you know, when somebody almost
hits you when you're driving in your car and you're

(46:46):
like and then you're like, yo, funck face. Like your
anger comes first from like you were afraid. They crossed
a boundary, they came into your space. They it was dangerous.
And so our anger tells us where our boundaries are.
Our boundaries tell us what our values are. And so
listen to your anger suit that you can identify those boundaries,
to that you can more clearly articulate your values and

(47:09):
those values of love and of um honesty and of
listening are more important than ever now. But I think
any time I pay attention a lot to that word should,
like so and so should be doing this, the GOP
should stand come out against so and so should do this.
Like I realized that any time I'm in a should land,

(47:32):
I'm outside of my mind. I'm out of my mind
because I'm over in somebody else's mind trying to tinker
in their ship, and like I can only do this,
like I've noticed recently, like with my my husband, I
I'm just really really super tidy. Like a lot of
times he'll take out a shirt to like put it
on his body for clothes that day, and he'll be like,

(47:53):
where did my shirt go? And I've already hung it
back up because I'm like, this doesn't go here. This
goes here, and he's like I was about to put
that on, but um, like I noticed that. I go
around the house and he used some scissors and he
left him on the counter, and I'm like, he should
put these back where the scissors go. The scissors don't
go here, he should put them back. And it's just
slowly made me realize, like, oh, that's only driving me crazy.

(48:14):
Like if I want the scissors to be in a
certain place, I'll put him there. And the more I
waste time on wishing he would do the stuff, that's
the way I want it. I'm that's like completely like
drained energy that went nowhere. I can just put them
where I want him to be and then like we
have a peaceful home, Like I'm the one who wants
it to be like this, so I'm gonna make it

(48:35):
like this, And I think that's how we have to
be in our souls, in our homes, in our cities,
and in our countries. Like, honestly, I think that's a
great place to end. We're gonna take a quick break
when we come back. I got propped back with me.
Holly still here, and we're talking about the soul of
a nation. Don't go anywhere I was up. We are back.

(48:56):
This is let's get into it. And now I have
Holly and prop with me and we are talking about
the soul of a nation. But first I want to
know for you and maybe for the listener elsewhere, with
all of this uncertainty, with all of this, you know
you'll have protests. You know, everybody was getting ready for
protests on either side. No matter the outcome of the election,
there is still a lot of negative energy in the air.

(49:18):
There's still a lot of uncertainty in the air, a
lot of instability. What are the best places that we
can find joy? Oh? Do you have it? Man? Um?
I just think man, like, uh, family, you know what
I'm saying, Like things that you enjoy. I think that,
like you know, if you have like some sort of

(49:39):
like spirituality, like you know, leaning into that. I just
think ultimately, like for me, it's been the mindset of
the permission to check out, you know what I'm saying,
like giving myself the permission to do something brainless, you know. Um.
And also as a person of color, like I always say,

(49:59):
like I need to go do black shit. Whether it's
like you know, just barbecue, funk music, you know, so
whatever it is, you know what I'm saying, Like, whatever
it is that feeds you sold. My wife is first
gin so she's first in Mexican. So for her it's
like Combia, She's gonna go do, She's gonna go, you
know what I'm saying. Like and my house and my

(50:21):
house turns into all Spanish, you know what? I'm saying,
it's like if feeds are soul, you know, so in
my mind, I'm like, you know, yeah, identify that stuff,
give yourself permission and just like and make space for it,
like put it on your calendar when somebody's like, yeah,
like from twelve to four, I'm busy. I'm busy doing nothing.
I love I love that, man. I think that's really

(50:42):
truly what it is. I think getting in tune with
the things that make you happy, whether it's something as
big as celebrating with your family or being with your family,
or if it's something as easy as like a milkshake
or a popcorn in a funny movie, or you know,
a joint or a little a little martini or whatever
it is. Yes, yes, I have been noticing. I've been
uh telling myself. I've been calling it like snapshot where

(51:04):
I'm like spinning in some kind of anxiety or playing
out some like potential thing that could happen or go
wrong or whatever. And if I just pull back and
I say, if somebody took a picture of me right
now and I studied the picture, what do I see, Like,
what's the snapshot? I'm actually living in Okay, regardless of
where my mind is spinning out and my anxiety is

(51:25):
taking me. If I had to describe the snapshot of
the picture I am currently in, like wow, look where
I am, Like it's it's beautiful outside, I have food
in my refrigerator, I have clothes on my back, and
I have the ability to reach out to the people
that I love and send them light and love like
I've been trying to do that right now and all

(51:45):
the uncertainty, like this week particularly, is when I feel
the most despair, I just pick up my phone and
I send like a text to someone that I'm thinking
of and just say I'm sending you light and love,
like just my I'm trying to uh, we are vibrating
all the time. So um that gratitude that prop was

(52:08):
talking about of like count my blessings. Look at the
snapshot I'm actually living in and I've been and the
snapshot has changed before, Like this summer, I was at
the corner of Kwanga and Hollywood Boulevard when UM cops
in riot gear started like setting off flashbangs and like

(52:29):
attacking like peaceful protesters, and I was running for my
life and seeing things that with my own eyes where
I was like, oh my god, the snapshot I'm in
is like, holy sh it, this is some like the
images I saw in black and white of like the
civil rights movement, if John Louis and all of a
sudden like so um. Sometimes the snapshot is like damn,
this is touch and go. But also I have to

(52:52):
look at the snapshot of like wow, I'm standing looking
at a sunset and there's a hummingbird, and there's bumblebees,
and those bumblebees are working three mile radius to make
sure that like cherries get like right right right for
you know, and and and so I think that snapshot
and trying to send little vibrations of love and and

(53:12):
not dealing in should but just being like, what's under
my control, that's all we can do. I love that.
I love that the snapshot thing. That that's I've never
even thought about life like that, Like if somebody took
a picture of me right now, Like what would this
this this image be? Um. You guys are both entertainers,
and you both have a pretty deep relationship with poetry.

(53:34):
I'm more curious, just for on a personal tip, is
there any particular work or poet that's been getting you
through like this time, Like I know, in the midst
of all of the racial injustice stuff, like I really
swayed to Sam Cook and I was listening to everything,
you know, lots of lots of music that was really
of the time then that was dealing with true, uh issues.

(53:55):
And then I would listen to everything from One Man
Can Change the World, the Big Sean and Legend record
that came around when when Obama was um running for president,
and you have all of these songs that are really
like important. So as a musician that really spoke to
my heart. UM. I don't have such a deep relationship
with poetry, but I was interested if if either of
you guys had a specific work or a poet or

(54:15):
even another artist that's been that that got you through
um that time or more specifically like this time of uncertainty.
Definitely one of my one of my all time favorites
is Mary Oliver, and I've the more I've been in
her poetry this week, the more I've realized how much
she went into nature for her own sanity. That was
her way of kind of like handling her anxiety. And Um,

(54:39):
I all week I've been saying the beginning of one
of her poems that honestly is life changing to me
is It's called Wild Geese by Mary Oliver, and the
beginning of it is exactly what we're talking about today.
She says, you do not have to be good. You
do not have to walk on your knees for a
hundred miles through the desert repenting. You only have to
let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. Oh,

(55:06):
it goes on, like on the end of the podcast.
I'm not saying nothing after that. Boy, let's just I
need you to say that bit again. I don't think
anybody's ready for more. I think we just need to
really sit and marinade with that first half. Yeah, it's
and and there's a whole second half of the poem

(55:27):
and like, but but for me, especially again growing up
female being so deeply ingrained in me to stay small
and quiet and subservient and kind and good natured, and
to take care of everyone's needs before my own, and
all of those things that are built into girls like
to hear. That word, to me is a revolutionary phrase.
You do not have to be good. You do not

(55:49):
have to be good. You do not have to be good.
The irony of this poem is that it's excellent. She
is excellent, like she's so good at it. But like,
you do not have to be good you. You do
not have to walk on your knees for a hundred
miles through the desert repenting. You only have to let
the soft animal of your body love what it loves.

(56:09):
Tell me about your despair yours, and I will tell
you mine. Meanwhile, the wild geese high in the clean
blue air are heading home again, like I'll stop again,
but it keeps going. But the reason it's so important
to listen to your body and your anger is that
that soft animal of your body that your consciousness is
dwelling inside of right now, is full of information. So

(56:33):
that letting your body love what it loves also takes
us to our values, which shows us the fight, which
shows us our next step forward. And the term soft
animal is like insane, because it's really truly you break
this outer shell that we've either been raised to have,
or that it's been passed down inherently, or it's been

(56:54):
something that we picked up because of what's happened to us,
you know, externally, and now we have the shell. You
cracked that shell, and that's why I love the soft
animal reminds me of when you like you bite into
a rollo or you bite into like you know, like
you kiss with Karmen and you bite that outer shell
and then you're inside and it's just like a nice
warm So that's that that's beautiful with This is not

(57:15):
a poetry you know, this isn't a poetry review podcast,
but it might be soon to get because I because
I will literally just sit in that poem with you
for the next hour. I'm going to try and bring
us back to where we are today. UM. Biden called
this campaign the soul of the nation, which I think
is like, I think it's beautiful because it's really what

(57:38):
we were fighting for, is the soul of this nation,
which you had mentioned it and prohaps mentioned it so far.
The system was never broken, The system was never blank.
The soul was just different. The soul was just it was.
It was working exactly the way it was planned. And
that's why I love this, this term the soul of
the nation, because what we were voting for, more than

(58:00):
the President, more than Senate, more than propositions, was this
soul of the nation. Who are we going to be
moving forward? Um? I also know that it's almost the holidays,
and I know that there's a lot of family time
that we're going to be spending, and I know that
there's a lot of Luckily, I have an incredible family
and we all share views, but there's a lot of

(58:20):
family members who are going to be spending the holidays with. UM. Actually,
Catherine and Holly, we're all um and and proper. I
don't know if if this fits you as well, but
we were talking before you got on that all three
of us were raised, you know, in in very conservative upbringings.
I was raised in Arizona, and Catherine and Holly were
raised in in Chicago, which um, as diverse as it

(58:44):
is as a city, still Middle America, still very conservative.
UM So, my my question for the both of you
is because I can't help but think about how many
people are going to be spending time with somebody who
maybe a month ago would be protesting directly on the
opposite side of the front lines. Can we get along
with with anybody you know with family members or friends

(59:06):
who have openly racist or damaging views or voted for
Donald Trump? Can we and and and should we even
try to? Wow? It's hard man, Yeah, that's why did
you guys here. Yeah. Man, I just think I think
it's so complicated, right because like, um, my family, my

(59:30):
father was a black panther, so there's that, and uh
so we were you know, we're Christians, you know what
I'm saying. Our our our home, you know what I'm saying,
but very far from conservative, you know what I'm saying.
So it's always interesting when I say, yeah, I come

(59:51):
from like my family's Christian. I'm like, but I mean
something very different than you probably do, yo saying. Uh,
you know what I'm saying. I mean like Martin Luther
King's was a pastor, you know what I'm saying. Like,
so when I say Christian, I mean that you know
what I mean. Um, you know so that said, you know,
obviously like the LGBTQ situation comes up and it gets

(01:00:13):
kind of uncomfortable in our home when we start pushing
back and stuff like that. Yeah, I man, I just
I think that there's a reality of like when you
know you're on the right side of history, Um, which
I think in this situation is pretty clear. It's like

(01:00:34):
it now is on us too. Somehow appeal to the
higher nature inside of that person buried under a gang
of fear and pain and misinformation, which is what um,
which Holly you would kind of mentioned, and is like

(01:00:56):
we built you're they're building safeguards around owned the fear
of losing something. You know what I'm saying, Um, that
that you know, for us, it's like somehow, somehow a
march towards equality, somehow equals a loss of privilege for

(01:01:16):
those who've been on top, you know what I'm saying, Um,
And it's it's now like I said, it's it's incumbent
on us to go, Hey, I recognize that you're afraid.
You know what I'm saying, Um, You're afraid that you're
losing something, and that is a valid We all are

(01:01:37):
afraid of losing something. Now are you in fact losing
it is a different situation, you know what I'm saying,
Like you're not you know what I'm saying, Like this
is a lyric in my songs, like you know, equalities oppression.
If all you know it's privileged, you know what I'm saying.
So like if that's all you know, then it feels
like oppression, you know what I'm saying. But like, yeah,
it's like it's one of those things to where it's

(01:01:59):
like you you have to have the wisdom. It's unfortunate,
but this is just the the burden of being on
the right side of history is just being like, I
have to navigate a higher conversation than this person is
desiring for me to get into. You know what I'm saying, Like,
I'm not like so for me, it's like like you said,
like I'm not gonna not gonna debate you. You know

(01:02:21):
what I'm saying because most of the time, especially now,
like uh, you know Holly was saying to like this
fear of of of this silo is so it's a
sealed off ecosystem that like there's no amount of reasoning.
I can't pierce it like it' said. You know, there's
no numbers, there's no facts, there's no grounding in reality

(01:02:43):
that could make that could pierce into your world. So
I'd rather pull back and say, hey, dude, like I
it sounds like you're afraid of losing something that you
hold dear. And I'm like, yo, so am I you
know what I'm saying, I don't want to lose something
I hold dear, which is my actual physical life. Right.

(01:03:08):
I got a question that actually feeds directly to that
exact conversation that you're talking about having um and and
and it's written down right here. It's like convictions are convictions?
Do you think that the way that you would the
way that you addressed it, I think is is incredible,
especially for that conversation. Is look, you, I know that
you're afraid of losing something. I I too am afraid
of losing something. But at the end of the day,

(01:03:29):
do you think that people who are just completely convinced
who's whose privilege or whose equality feels like oppression because
all they know is privileged like you had mentioned um,
do you think that they have that there's still a
chance that those minds can change or are you kind
of do you feel like a conviction on the just convictions?
Now I'm on the I'm on the holly side. I

(01:03:49):
think that like I can't that's something that like that's
an alchemy I can't control, you know what I'm saying,
Like I don't know, you know what I mean. I
know that my mind has changed in a lot of ways.
You know what I'm saying. I know that I'm not
I don't think the way I did when I was
twenty you know what I'm saying, And that was experience
and learning and meeting new people and understanding and traveling
the world and just being like, oh yeah, I got

(01:04:13):
exposed to things that made me know better. You know
what I'm saying, Um that the dissolving of the psyche
to reimagine it, you know what I'm saying, Like I
went through that. You know what I mean. I think
that it's unfortunate when a person is not willing to
do it, but it's also I also understand it's painful,
Like you know, I'm I'm asking you, like, like, if

(01:04:33):
you think about a person like you said that milk
toast person, what I'm asking you to do is say
everything you learned about your nation's origin stories is bullshit,
all of it. That's that. That's a that's a statement.
You know what I'm saying, Like, No, that's all bullshit.
Everything you know is reality's bullshit? Like what you know
what I'm saying? Like, so I know what I'm asking

(01:04:53):
of you. You know what I'm saying. And so for me,
I'm like, I am not sitting at old Thanksgiving table
to convince nobody of anything. What I am doing is
I'm loving my uncle. And if my uncle, if my
uncle want to be an asshole, I mean, my uncle's
an asshole. Like I don't know what you want me

(01:05:15):
to say, like the asshole. Yeah, but but I but
I will say again uncle, my uncle, he's scared. You
know what I'm saying. I got, I got you know,
I got family member like in and out of jail
that I look at them like what did you doing? Man?
Like just you? I mean, I'm following. I logically understand
your train of thought, but this is ridiculous, bro, Like

(01:05:36):
you don't. You don't have to live this way. You
know what I'm saying that said, let me get some
of them, Kyla Green's my one request is let's not
do any of the arguing at the Thanksgiving table, because
like there's some people there who who might just want
to be eating dinner and and and that's where if
you want to have your arguments, do them outside because
like for me, I'm saying, if I'm having my meal

(01:06:00):
and then somebody interrupts it by trying to come up
with some crazy conspiracy theories or any of that, I'm
gonna be really upset because I've waited all year for
Thanksgiving and my mom only makes cream corn once and
that's my mom, that's my moment. So don't take that
away from Holly. I have a question for you, Um,
and I think just because and we're still seeing it now.

(01:06:23):
You know, in over the last four years, we've seen
that the dangerous rhetoric nationalism, Trump is um, conspiracy theories,
racism have all kind of been opened, like the gates
to that being an okay thing to have, like to
to be a part of your life. It's been opened
and accepted a lot more than I would hope, and
I think that a lot of us would hope now
that hopefully we are starting to turn a corner. Do

(01:06:47):
you still feel like things like that are going to
be diminished? You know, like there's some people who are
thinking Trump's gonna start his own news channel if it
doesn't work, and then he's gonna just kind of create
this this even to the right of Fox News type
of thing. Ing, Uh, where where do you think we're
gonna turn with all of this? Because for the last
four or five years, we've tried on the on the

(01:07:09):
right side of history. We've tried to let them say
what they want, and we just take it on the chin.
But then it got to a point where we had
no choice. Like I think that it got to a
point where there is no choice because they were they
were coming down with such heaviness in their conspiracy theories,
in their nationalism, and the racism in the in the
damaging rhetoric. Uh. Do you think that as we're turning

(01:07:31):
this corner with hopefully um you know, Joe Biden winning
this presidency and hopefully us making that a cornerstone of
of change. Uh, do you think that that's gonna die down?
Do you think it's gonna go up? What can we
do about it? I think it's gonna go up. I
think it's gonna get way worse before it gets better. Unfortunately. Yeah,

(01:07:52):
And I think it's what Props said to at the
end of the day, it's it's really going to be like, well,
I think that's powerful what you said prop about, Like, well,
I love my uncle. He might have dick head views,
but I'm going to I'm going to continue to behave
in a loving way to him. I one time heard
someone say something about like the way a parent is

(01:08:15):
to a child when a child starts losing it ship.
A lot of times the parents is like, oh, you're
so tired. You you didn't I know actually that you
didn't get your nap today or you didn't sleep last night.
You're so tired. The parents like looks for the most
gracious explanation for that behavior, and and and why don't
we do that like with our partners, with our spouses,

(01:08:37):
with our wives, like when our when our when our spouse,
you know, behaves like an asshole? Why aren't we like, oh,
exactly what prop is saying? Like, Oh you're tired, Oh
you're scared, like I look at um. The last few weeks,
I've had almost no contact with my family. My parents
are big Trump supporters, and it is so deeply painful

(01:08:58):
to me, and has been for four years. I walk
every day like trying to pen the perfect letter, to
craft the perfect argument to show them the light too,
like and and it's all been such wasted energy. And
what's happened over these last four years is that our
relationship has grown really, really distant. And it hit me
this week. While we've been waiting for the outcome, I've

(01:09:19):
had the thoughts several times like, well, I'm just gonna
wait and see how this goes before I contact my
parents so that I know what landscape I'm living in
before the call, And then it hit me like a
ton of bricks where I was like, oh, wait, am
I that sore of a loser that like I gotta
wait and see, like did things go my way? Cool?

(01:09:40):
I'm going to call you and be cool. And then
it makes me look at this last four years and like,
WHOA was I that bad of a loser that for
four years I have let distance grow in this relationship
and my confusion at how you can be these one
issue voters and the way that it It makes me
feel ashamed of my legacy and sad and disappointed in
you as people that you that you aren't more critical thinkers,

(01:10:03):
that you're not fighting for the information. But again it
goes back to like that's me being out of my mind.
I'm trying to be inside their minds, tinkering with how
they're thinking. When I have to come back into my
mind and instead of living out of my mind, be
in my mind and be like, oh wow, I was
a bad loser. I'm going to be more gracious and

(01:10:26):
loving and reach out once I have like like like
you said, like Game one went bad but like now
with the series, if if the series is like three
one or something like now I'm gonna call I'm feeling,
you know, and that being said to I've had the
thought before. Honestly, I've had the thought, you know, because
you can do tinktures and stuff of cannabis, and um,

(01:10:48):
I've like I've thought of just putting a little bit
of cannabis and all of the Thanksgiving dishes, you know,
like in the without them knowing, and I'm like, this
could go great, and this may be the only that, like,
you know, what might save Thanksgiving. You're starting to give
me some ideas, Holly, at to give me a little

(01:11:09):
bit ideas, Holly, if it's undetectable and all of a sudden,
they're just like everybody's really chill, laughing, having a good
time and like lighthearted and remembering like, oh wait, I
love all these people. You run out of thanks you.
The only thing that happens then, though, is you run
out of food, and then people get angry because the
munchies kicking you go at home. But the end, everybody's

(01:11:31):
asleep on the couch at this point. Um, My only
question that I have and it's it's for both of you,
is is Listen, I think if we were talking about,
you know, twelve election, right, and you're at Thanksgiving after
the twelve election, and it was Mitt Romney versus Obama,
but it was just like it was it was realistic,

(01:11:52):
like and and for lack of better term, it was
just politics. Right, How do you How does that does
that change at all? Though? Because, like I listened to
when I think about you saying like you're a sore
loser because you're only talking to them once your guy wins.
But at the same time, I'd like to think that
Joe Biden potentially sorry I keep knocking on, would um

(01:12:12):
potentially winning this election means a lot more to me
than just my guy one, you know what I mean? Like, then,
so does it change at all to either of you
in the sense of because I totally get it. I
am the same exact where it's like, if you're down
to zero in in the playoffs. I know we keep
making sports like sports analogies, but if you're down to

(01:12:33):
zero in the playoffs, you're not saying anything. But once
you're up three two in the playoffs, you're talking. You're
talking all of this ship in the world and so
I think in my own opinion and maybe I'm wrong,
that's different to me than what is what this is now?
I I mean because again, to me, a part of
it is like the way that I see it is

(01:12:54):
like the backlash to Trump is love. And so maybe
you don't, you know, in my mind is like maybe
you're not calling your mom and your dad and you're like,
guess what, losers, But you're saying like, hey, I know
that this has been a really divided time and and
I don't want to call because like not I'm not
trying to be you're you know, you're take family therapist.

(01:13:15):
But like that's the only thing I was thinking as
you're saying that is like to me, I was kind
of thinking, like, give yourself a break, because you're not
just saying you're not mad that that that Romney beat Obama.
You're you were mad that we we voted in something
that created such a divisive um and just separating kind

(01:13:36):
of negativity. Yo, I'd say this, I'd say this, dude.
It's like, Okay, so obviously there's like there's ditches on
both sides of the roads, right, There's there's silos in
both you know, spheres of super progressive or super conservative.
They're they're silos, and there's problems in both of our circles,
right Uh, At the same time, there is a big difference.

(01:13:57):
Like you know, at least in in the world I
exist in. Nobody see Biden as like to come in Messiah,
Like he's not gonna like he's not gonna save the world.
You understand what I'm saying, Like we are under no
delusion for that. So there's no like Biden cult. So
I think that like with that, with that said, I
think that, um, what we can do is like remember that,

(01:14:21):
like culture is made up, and it's made up by us, right, So,
like like Trump, Trump tapped into an angst that was
already there and he turned up the fire. You feel me,
So it's our turn now if we are the people
in if we're gonna say the people on top, if
you wich is a stupid like metaphor because it's one nation,

(01:14:42):
you know what I'm saying. But like if we if
we are that, then what we get to do is say, hey,
you just gave us control. We're going to turn the
fire down a little bit and just say here's here's
how we're looking at this He's just a man, He's
just a person, a part of a longer history. Um,
we are hoping to see people's lives get better. I'm

(01:15:03):
not gonna you know what I'm saying, Like that's what
was weird. That's I think one of the unique things
about this Trump situation was like like they were sore winners.
I never never meant nobody that was a sore winner.
Like what I'm saying, like like for you one, like
why are you acting like this? You know what I'm saying.
So I just think that like there's a way that
you know, if we get to set the temperature of
the room, which we do because that's how temperature is made,

(01:15:25):
we make it so then so so rather than make predictors,
let's just be you know what I'm saying, what we're
looking for and just being like I'm gonna set the tone,
like you're going back to like the uh the like
parents situations, but like I get to set the tone,
you know what I'm saying, Like if my if my
five year old is spiraling out of control, that's ridiculous
to let me go in there and spiral with her

(01:15:48):
like no, like you five, you know what I'm saying like,
let me, I'm gonna set the tone here, you know
what I'm saying, and it but it again, it takes
the work on on myself, the willing to look myself
in the face, like like Holly just said, it was like, yo,
she looked herself in the face, Like dog, I'm actually
kind of guilty of this, you know what I'm saying,

(01:16:09):
and like willing to like do that work. I think
that that's the call now, is like yo, do that work,
do that homework. Where where are your blind spots? Where
are those things? So when you walk into a room
that you already know it's toxic, you understand what I'm saying.
And because it's clearly toxic, and like even even among conservatives,
like I'm even looking at like the GOP, which is

(01:16:30):
um as a long answer, but like what I look at,
like what the GOLP is doing, Like I do a
pod call hood politics too, because I just I just
think that like politics is really just gang banging in
nice suits, like y'all just gang bang. So like so
so when I look at the GOP, I'm like, Okay,
the boss is going down, right, So what are you
gonna do? You're gonna go down with the boss. He's
gonna die, You're gonna go to You're gonna go to
jail with him? Or are you gonna cut ties and

(01:16:52):
try to set yourself up for the next boss. I
started acting like, oh well, I ain't never really ride
with him anyway, you know. And if you the go op,
you was like, look, we got what we needed. We
got we we was on top. We got a couple
of Senate seats, we got three three Supreme Court sissies
were good Trump. You know what I'm saying, Like they
got what they needed because the hood stands, you know,

(01:17:14):
saying they're like, we'll rebrand later, We'll be fine. You
understand what I'm saying. So I know with within that
conservative because you and I have lived coincided with conservatives
four years, you're saying, we like we've lived with these
people forever, you know. And so now I get to go, Okay,
So I know in there somewhere is a logical human

(01:17:38):
being that just wants to see the that just has
different a different solution for how we could get to
or have a different path to the same solution. Like
I understand that. So and that's the beauty of the system.
Were posted to pull and tug at each other and
fight over these different things to get to the best answer.
That's what we're supposed to be doing. So now I
feel like we get to make that culture. We get

(01:18:00):
to say, Okay, now I'm gonna turn down to fire
here like, I'm not not here to gas like nobody like.
It's not that's not the game. That's what was wrong.
Was just the gas lighting? You wrong. I'm not gonna
do that, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, I think
I have one last question though, and and it's for
both of you, and I want both you guys to
give me an answer because I think it will help, Honestly,

(01:18:21):
it'll help with my uncertainty, and I think it will
help with a lot of listeners uncertainty if we're all
kind of together with it. What are your hopes for
the next four years as we wait for the answers,
if they potentially, you know, uh, come out our way.
I have I have such high hopes. I mean, I
hope we can. I hope we can expand the court.

(01:18:41):
I hope we can eliminate the electoral college. I would
like to abolish the applice the police. But if if
we just have to go for defund whatever reform can
possibly take place. UM put in protections for voters. Um
uh undergird black lives matter, like really do the boots
on the groundwork now? And honestly, UM, my husband works

(01:19:02):
with the LGBT Center in Hollywood. They have a group
called the Leadership Lab and they like flipped Orange County
Ineen and they are about they call it deep canvassing,
which is based on listening where they go door to
door and they've been in Pennsylvania for the last month
and look at what Pennsylvania chef's kiss. But like, um,
their whole essence for their their whole thing is that

(01:19:25):
like when you talk to someone, Um, you've never convinced
someone to change their mind by telling them what you
think or telling them what you believe is right. Never
it just doesn't work. It's like it's like a high
school kid who's like stoned in English class, like I'm
not there to learn, I'm just trying to get through
the day. So this teachers, like you're the teacher is
falling on deaf ears. It's like when the student is ready,

(01:19:46):
the teacher appears and what they've learned is that the
only way to affect change through story. And so they
don't tell anyone why they're at the door. They don't
tell them who they believe is the better candidate or whatever.
They ask them questions about their story, worry, and through
listening to their story, they help that person articulate their
values and how their vote can um align with their

(01:20:08):
values and and like Props said, like helping their neighbor,
helping their grandmother, helping their child, my vote can actually
create change for people. And the only way that we,
um I think we can do that is through the
power of story and listening to people's stories and and
shutting the hell up. Like I've actually I've never learned
anything by talking, but I've learned almost every time I've listened.

(01:20:32):
So maybe we just have to shut the hell up
for a while. I should have been that should have
been campaign plan is just like, hey, everybody, shut the
hell up for a while. Uh. It has been hard,
Like looking at the images like on the screen burned
into my retinas. Now I'm like, man, it's so hard
to feel excited when it's just it's two old white
guys Like I don't feel like I'm looking at the future.

(01:20:54):
That's not the future. The future is not old white men.
Thank god, prop what you got for us? Are you
what are you hoping to see in the next four years? Yeah,
I think, um, reimagining of like how we relate to
the planets. Like I'd love to see us get back
into the Paris Agreement, you know, because we're running out
of water, Like I just don't understand how the partisan

(01:21:15):
issue breathe the air man like so like, uh, I'd
love to see that. I'd love to see some some
healthcare change. I'd love to see some defunding of police also,
you know, um, but I think ultimately, you know, obviously,
like at some point i'd love to can we can
we talk about reparations? Can I be can I feel

(01:21:38):
know I'm saying, uh, but yeah, so, but I think,
like you know, in the in the from the like
ten thousand foot perspective, Like I think, like I don't
want to say a return of civility because even during
civil times, like you know how black people still going
to prison twice as much as everybody else. So it's
like you're just saying it nicer, you know what I'm saying,
Like pens. That's like a pincerer in the Trump like

(01:22:00):
you just the it's the nice version. You know what
I'm saying, Like I'm not looking for that, but I
am looking for somebody to say, like the our congressman
that got in in California, David Kim, he was he
uses his term like human based economic economics. You know
what I'm saying it where it's like where the matrix
isn't some like how do we judge how good the
economy is going? Is not some like abstract chart. It's

(01:22:23):
like no, how are humans doing? Like Joe saying like
it's the economy good? Well are you hungry? Can you
got a job? Well then okay, well I guess your
job paying enough for I guess it's not doing well.
You know what I'm saying, So like not some arbitrary
number that only affect twenty people, you know what I'm saying.
So so I just think I would love to see

(01:22:43):
if like that, like just the overall tenor of our
nation to start just thinking human first. You know what
I'm saying, like like how is this person doing? You
know what I'm saying, Like when you just you step
back and just again think about like the immigration issues,
like you put a child in a cage, like I
just I don't understand what version of paperwork or would

(01:23:07):
make you forget that that's a living person, Like I
just even if even if you could be the strictest
most like to the t you need to follow directions
to gain citizenship, Okay, cool, but you gotta put them
in a cage though, Like you know what I'm saying,
Like you just just so I just would love to

(01:23:27):
see something like that that we could come back to
being like can we just remember like we're talking about
people here, like yeah, these are people man, you know.
So that's really like my hope for the next like
you know, I don't. I mean, that's my lofty hope
and it's not I don't think any of as much
as I love it, I don't think all of the
things that you both just said, which I share it

(01:23:47):
a hundred percent, in all of the hopes that both
of you have to me the way that I view it.
Um as we're closing out, it's my takeaway from this
whole episode of this uncertainty, things like where do we
go moving forward? Even if we don't know it's going
to be it's like we gotta lead with love. I
think something that would be amazing is like we gotta
separate politics from just human like you said, like just

(01:24:09):
regular human rights, you know, like I think taking out
all of the things that are like we all want
to have a planet, right, Okay, cool, we all want air, right,
we want water. Everybody wants to be treated nicely like
And I think, however, whatever the whatever the byproducts of
those necessities are, whether it be you know, reforming police
or defunding police or abolishing police, whether it be through reparations,

(01:24:33):
whether it be through through legalizing um L, G B,
t Q plus rights across the board in every state,
every city, whether it be you know, all of those things.
Like I think it's to me, the way that I
view it is like we gotta we gotta really say,
hey guys, this, this group of things are politics. Taxes.
We can talk about this, We can talk about that. Yeah, yaha,

(01:24:54):
this stuff not politics. We can't. We're not we're not
voting on whether the color your skin gets to decide
how likely you are to go to prison. We're not
go We're not good. We can't vote for those things.
We can't like those aren't options to choose from. Um,
so I one. More than anything, I'm just really grateful
that both of you guys were here because I'm not
gonna lie like I've been hella uncertain the last four days.

(01:25:16):
I know, I said my earlier story like, I've just
I've been unproductive. I've been like lethargic, I've been ANTSI
checking my phone every day like it's the fridge like,
and I just and I'm really grateful that both of
you guys came on here today. So thank you both
so much. Um this is my favorite part of the show.
As I let you guys go, it is called not
So Shameless Promo. UM this. I want you guys to

(01:25:39):
just hype everywhere that people can find you, especially after
this episode, because I know that the listeners are gonna
want to hear more from both of you guys. Ah man,
um mind short, I'll go first. Mega. The podcast is
um my comedy podcast, fully improvised satire and um uh yeah,
and you can follow me at Polly Laurent quick and

(01:26:01):
easy and effective. Yeah maybe I'm subscribing right now. I'm
subscribing right now too, God Glass. Yeah. Uh so for me,
everything is just prop hip hop dot com and all
the app mentions. Uh, there's a that's links to all
the podcasts and the coffee stuff. I'm somewhat of a

(01:26:23):
coffee nerd uh. It's so um. I just think even
if the world joint by, at least your coffee shop
and stuck. So like, get some good coffee. You know
what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and U so yeah yeah.
Just prop hip hop dot com. That's pop dot com.
I love that. Thank you both so much. Thank you
know me alex ion O A I O n oh,

(01:26:44):
you can find me everywhere. It's the best part about
having a weird last name. Um, if you have the time,
please rate and subscribe our podcast. Let me see hold on,
make sure if it was that one. Yeah yeah, mega,
thank you, there it is. I'm going to reach out
to you. Yeah yeah, let's go. Let's go reach out
to reach out to me. Please, but yes, please rate

(01:27:10):
in our Please rate and subscribe to the podcast. That's
how we grow. If you want, you can leave a review.
I'd love to see what you think. But thank you
so much for listening. Again, God bless America. Huh. We'll
talk to you guys next time. All right. We really

(01:27:33):
want you to get the help you need, so if
you need help, please seek independent advice from a competent
healthcare or mental health professional. The views and opinions expressed
in this podcast are solely those of the podcast author
or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent
the opinions of I Heart Media or its employees. This
podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, counseling,
or therapy. Listening to the podcast does not established dr

(01:27:54):
patient relationship with hosts or guests of alex IONO, Let's
Get Into It or I Heart Media. No guarantee has
given guarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made
on this podcast, Wolf That's a Doozy

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