Isiah Thomas - Part 1 | Ep 176 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball - All The Smoke

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
M h and welcome back to another edition all the

(00:26):
Smoke Jack. We got a good one today, Bro Legendary,
got a good one today. Someone I've been harassing trying
to tell you, but on his asphalt town them we
need you, we need you, and we keep passing each other.
But he finally came out here for something. I found
out he was coming out here for something, and he
blessed us with his time, two time NBA Champ, twelve

(00:47):
time All Star, one of the greatest point guards slash players,
the original Z to ever play this game, the real
zke Yes, the one and only, one and only Isaiah Thomas.
Thank you for the time, man, Thank you for coming
through ways always. Uh. There was a rumor just recently
that you were going to sign with the Suns on
the management side. It came out and then what's the

(01:10):
latest with that situation. So I'm on the board of UWM,
which is matt ishpe is little scolding company. And you
know it's crazy. You have the two biggest mortgage companies
in the US in Detroit, UWM and Rocket Mortgage. So
I'm on the board. He and I've been friends for

(01:32):
a long time. Advise him on a couple of things.
He advised me on a couple of things business wise,
and we have been you know, really looking for a
team since uh twenty twenty one. NTT wanted to get
into the business. Um, his brother wants on the baseball team.
Matt wanted to own the basketball team. So you know,

(01:54):
when the story came out, it was only natural that
they put us together. You know, advising, still talking, still consulting.
I don't have any plans of being in a front
office position ever. Again in terms of running basketball operations. Now,
when you talk about advising, consulting, ownership, those type of things,

(02:19):
that's probably where I fit in a you know, not necessarily.
I got too much going on. I don't see myself
sitting in the office day to day running basketball ops again.
But from an advising consulting standpoint, that is on the table,
and you know, we'll see what happens. Just obviously basketball

(02:41):
is what you're known for, but now you're known for
just your entrepreneurialism is that a word, or entrepreneurial ship.
I mean doing very well mogul, Yeah, cannabis space, champagne space,
real estate, private equity. Business of basketball wasn't very big
you played, because it wasn't very big when we played,

(03:02):
you know what I mean. Now it's it's the norm.
But you've been able to really capitalize off the court
with investments and in the business space. Can you walk
us through, uh, first and foremost your champagn because you
said that's what's keeping you youthful. So um, fortunately enough
for me. Uh. You know, basketball in sport has given
me the opportunity to really, you know, expand globally. Um.

(03:27):
And the name of my firm is Isaiah International, and
we do a lot of business outside of the United States.
So when you talk about the champagne space, Um, we
got two hundred acres over in the Old region of Champagne,
which is the oldest region of Champagne, with the largest
black owned champagne company in the US, largest first pressure

(03:47):
of champagne in the US. And there's three presses of
the great first press, second press, third press, and as
you know, the first press is the best press. We
also are known for of zero and low sugar champaigns.
Why did we want zero and low sugar champagne's being
former athletes? Right, Most people who drink champagne immediately complain

(04:08):
of a headache. So you ask the question why, right,
it's the high sugar content in the high soul fites, right,
So we wanted to bring something back to the US,
not only back to the US, but back to you know,
all people who love champagne, drink champagne, promote champagne, but
it's not theirs. So what we wanted to do is

(04:31):
bring you the best of the best. And my ECON
teacher told me a long time ago that you know,
if you if you got the highest quality and you
can give it to the customer and consumer at the
lowest price, then long term you're gonna win the game.
So it's not the best marketed, it's the you know,
the most, it's the best, highest quality. And we're out
here now getting ready on board and a couple of

(04:52):
the Hyatt hotels. That's why I'm out here. So Crilon
Champagne the number one rated zero low sugar, first person
great champagne in the United States, Black owned and also
supported by the four hundred and fifty NBA players on
the NBPA side. So shout out to the NBPA for
you know, uh, you know, helping and sticking with former

(05:15):
players and marketing anybody else in marketing. Now we got
some black black owns, so it's good to get that
in there. They might have the all time most successful
backcourt ever Microwave, super successful, Zeke and Joe d them three. Like,
if you wanted to model yourself about some basketball players

(05:36):
that took after bandage of their career and after basketball,
y'all might have the top basketball I mean backcourt in
history as far business wise. Thank you that seriously, if
you think about it, you ain't lying if you think
about it. Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way.
But that's why we own this show. Ye that's y'all.
That's why y'all. Can you think about that? Well, thank

(06:01):
you for that. And you know, and you know we
if you notice when we was describing ourselves when we
were playing um, the media always gave us the physically
tough label, but we always described ourselves as mentally tough.
And yeah, it's like, you know, you you win with

(06:22):
smart people. You know, you win with people who don't
make mistakes. Uh, you know who I understand how to
you know, operate, work within the system, game plan, you know,
make sacrifices and then you you try to go out
and win the basketball game with it, and fortunately enough
for us, we had a lot of players that that
wanted to do that and did it at a very

(06:43):
high level. You talk a little bit about the cannabis space.
That's something that Jack and I are both in and
and and it obviously, you know, this push was supposed
to be the push for the minority population in that space,
and we're still very small percentage of the population that's
making that up. But can you talk to us, but
what you guys are doing in the cannabis space. So

(07:03):
I'm chairman CEO of a publicly traded company called One
World Products where we cultivate and grow in Colombia. Now again,
my firm is Isaiah International, and we do a lot
of business, most of our businesses outside of the United
States because outside of the United States, I classify as
an American. Inside the United States, classify as black, and

(07:28):
you get the minority tax. And we got a lot
of white folks in here today who travel, you know,
and when you travel outside of the United States your passport,
you know, you white folks say they they're American. But
the only time they say they're white is when they
come back into the United States. The only time we
say we black is when we come into the United States.
Outside of the United States, there are no minority classifications

(07:52):
in terms of business so one world products. Why do
we choose to cultivate and grow in Colombia the same
reason we chow was France for Champagne, the soil, the sun,
and also the farmers and the workers that you work
with in terms of the indigenous farmers and growers Columbia.
Right now we've partnered with the Afro Columbia community. There

(08:17):
been granted one point two million acres of land to
grow industrial hymp. So when industrial hemp space and we're
also in the THHC in CBD space there also when
a process I got a couple of confidentiality agreement signed,
so I got to keep my fingers a cross. But
when a process of onboarding two of the larger brands

(08:39):
here in the UA in the US who sells CBD
and THHC products. Now we can't distribute THHC products across
the across the border yet, but internationally, as you know,
the borders have opened up in other countries, so we
can move THHC and CBD products into other countries. The

(09:01):
US will open up th HC wise, it has opened
up CBD Y, so we're able to move product into
the into the US and the CBD and the CBD
oils standpoint. The industrial hemp side, we work with the
automotive industry. Just signed an agreement with Stilantis and Flexingate

(09:22):
to produce a part on the jeep Wrangler that they've
given us that we in the automobile space they want
to reduce their carbon footprint. Hemp is the natural carbon
sync so it takes carbon out of the air. And
what we've done in that company one world product is
that we position ourselves not only to be the largest

(09:44):
supplier of industrial hemp, but if you if you think
of how can I put it. Most companies are set
up to deal with corporations. We set ourselves up to
deal with industry changes. So as as plastics are moved
out of the industry, you're looking for the next raw

(10:06):
material that will be infused into the industry. And we
see industrial hemp being the replacement for plastics and also
reducing the carbon footprint. UM you both of you know
the discovery of the indocannabinoid system that was discovered in
the nineties. Had we known about it when we was playing.

(10:27):
I'm sure we would have treated ourselves much differently. You
know they when you talk about CBD and THHC. The
two things that it does for athletes, right, reduces inflammation
and help you sleep. That's all we need. No swelling,
no pain. I can go to sleep, you know. So,

(10:52):
I think you know the plant is going to change
the way medicine is prescribed. They're now teaching in medical
school now about the indocannabinoid system CB one, CB two receptors,
and the more we discover the benefits of the plant,
the more it will be used. Now you hit an

(11:13):
important topic in terms of you know, classified as black
in this country getting business opportunities. We didn't get it
on the first blush, to first go around. Now that
federal and state still having come together in terms of
their laws. In the dispensary model that's set up here

(11:35):
in the States, you can only cultivate and grow from
You can only buy from the cultivators within the state,
but you can cross state lines. So it's a it's
an antiquated business model that's been set up here. We
do believe that it will have to expand and open
up and once it expands like any product, and it's

(11:56):
you can globally by it, buy it, and supply it.
We see ourselves in Columbia being a unique trade partner
with the US, probably the biggest trade partner with the
US on this side of the equator. Uh. Most of
your flowers that you get come from Columbia here in
the US. Your coffee or bananas, a lot of fruit.

(12:17):
So as a trade partner, Columbia is one of your
biggest trade partners. Columbia is projected to to supply forty
four percent of the world's cannabis supply only because of
the geography and also because you can turn your land
over three times a year. So again that's that's what

(12:37):
we do in one world products in terms of So
I'm in the champagne space, uh, and I'm in the
cannabis space and my kids love it. Hey, that is
the plug. That is as though, let's go back man,

(12:59):
I'm a west side of you. No, you're a west
side absolutely. Uh. Talk about young Zeke growing up on
the West side of Chicago. It was it was, it
was hard and as a matter of fact, you would
you would just uh there. I think about a year
ago he was running around and old block. Yeah, I

(13:20):
got the calls, right, I was like, nah, I call,
I said, I'll let him know that I was out there. Row.
But no. But growing up on the West side of Chicago,
and we we emphasized west side. And and here's why because,

(13:40):
uh my mom worked for Fred Hampton and I was
one of the kids that got the free breakfast, uh
you know, learned martial arts and all that. And and
the Black Panther headquarter was right there on Madison and Western.
The Chicago Bulls the stadium was two blocks from Madison
in Western where we you know you go to the

(14:02):
United Center now, or what we called the stadium, It
was two blocks from there. So as a kid, I
was standing outside the stadium begging for shoes, you know.
And then they would throw the popcorn out after the game,
and they would put it in the trash bend. So
we would always you know, wait and get the popcorn
and take it home. But growing up on the West side, right,

(14:25):
you had Noble Drew our lead teachings Moorish Americans. And
at that time it was about nationality, right, and you
and I've had some conversations about you know, nationality and citizenship.
That's what we were all about on the West Side
of Chicago. When Martin Luther King moved into the West
Side of Chicago, lived four blocks from my house. There's

(14:47):
a street named after my mom in Chicago. My mom
was she was a gangster, you know, a real deal. Yeah.
So Homing and Jackson, you will see Mary Thomas Way
and you know, named after my mom. You know, we
marching all the civil rights movements. Um. You know when
Martin Luther King moved in, you know, we didn't have babysitters.

(15:08):
It's nine of us, so she you know, she would
take us and you know, we had to go where
her and my pops went, you know. And so that's
kind of the neighborhood that that I'm from. Um. You know,
the first original game that started in the United States,
the Vice Lords. Um, when you talk about the Vice
Lords and and and all these games that really started.

(15:31):
You know, they if they go back and they read
their original charters, right, the original charters were set up.
They was supposed to be community base. Yeah, and they
was protecting the neighborhood, and it was protecting the neighborhood
from the police, right, because there was a lot of
police brutality and and and we were fighting not to
be colorized. We were fighting not to be putting an apartheid,

(15:54):
colorized system. And when you go back and you look
and you know those signs that they was running in
Memphis that I am a man. You know, we were
fighting not to be dehumanized and taken out of all humanity. Right.
We wanted to be and remain human. But now we've
accepted and we've adopted this colorized system. But but those

(16:15):
were the teachings that were taught on the West Side
of Chicago. So that's where I come from. That's what's
ingrained in me, That's what I carry, that's what I
still fight for today. And you know, there's no there's
no pure anything. We're all living on a hyphen right,
you you you know your Italian American And I'm gonna

(16:37):
say this, right, when we were growing up, we grew
up with Italians, we grew up with Greeks, we grew
up with Polish, we grew up with Irish right, and
they were proud to call themselves Greek, Italian, Irish. Right.
When did everybody become white? I mean, they don't say

(16:59):
I'm I'm Greek anymore. They don't say I'm Italian anymore.
They don't say, you know, um Jewish that everybody it's
either white, black, green, purple, blue or horne. My mom
I used to you know, what, what are You'm black
and white? And my Mom's like, no, you're Italian. You're
you're Italian. You're not You're not white? Right, right? Yeah?

(17:20):
And and and and by the way, the Italians, you know,
come from the Moors, right, you know, so you know,
when you when you, all of us are human beings,
right and and if we can get back to being
human beings and get away from this colorized apartheid system
that we're operating in, then we got a chance to

(17:42):
make it, you know. And that's what the fight has
always been about in this country, right, Those who are
who have been classified as black have always been trying
to get out of black status. So when immigrants come in,
they quickly say what's your status? And they tell you
what this status is, right, And you know, so nationality, birthright,

(18:07):
citizenship status, those are the things that we need to
be talking about. That was the conversation on the West Side,
and that's the conversation I still carry today. One quick
one question. You said, you and your mom used to
take you out to the marches and stuff like that.
I got a chance to experience that with George Floyd.
Did any of that change you experience that? Like, did

(18:29):
that have like any type of hold on you to
be able to experience that as a youngster, because I
experienced as a grown man, and it definitely changed me. Yeah.
And and so two things that I noticed dramatically, So
when we were marching, you know, in the sixties, my
first ten years of life, right, Martin Luther King's assassinated,

(18:53):
Fred Hampton's assassinated, the Kennedy's are assassinated, and we're talking
sixty three five, then the Cicero riots, Chicago Rights sixty six,
sixty seven, So this is my first ten years of
lights on the West Side. So I like seven riots,
you know, all in all community, right, and it was

(19:15):
just the community in the city marching. Right. George Floyd
gets killed, and I watched all the pain that you
was going through, and we all cried for you and
fell for you and saw your heart on display for
your brother. Right. But the thing that that was so

(19:38):
different about George Floyd and us marching for voting rights
I can't believe I'm saying this. In this country, we
still marching and trying to get voting rights. Think about
what I'm saying, right, classified as white in this country,
they ain't never had to march for voting rights right,

(20:01):
equal rights, keyword, civil rights. I just need you to
be civil to me. So I'm and these are these
are these are terms, these are labels, right, These are
labels civil rights, equal rights, voting rights right. So George
Floyd gets you know, gets murdered in watching all the

(20:23):
pain that you was going through, but then seeing the
whole world. That's different. It's different. Not the whole world
stood up and was marching those who were classified as black, white,
different countries of the end. And what they were saying is, hey,

(20:48):
United States of America, these people that y'all have classified
as black, please stop doing this to them. Change these laws,
let them be human right, give them their nationality back,
let them be a part of the system. Right. And

(21:12):
And that was different. You know, where the world stood up,
and not only did the world stand up, but you
had black folks, white folk, green folks for everybody, I
mean everybody, And in the sustained movement of the young folk,
the young folks in this country, was like a I

(21:36):
don't know what y'all talking about it, but I like snoop,
you know, like you know, I you know, it's like
you know this my brothers and and so the young folks,
what they've done in this country, and I hope they
keep it up, is putting the pressure on to to
to let us become a part of the United States,

(21:59):
American fab brick and and we don't need no no, no.
You know, we classified as a minority when you look
these terms up in the dictionary, right, hey, these words
have meaning, right. So hey, I'm not a minority. I'm
a grown man, right right, take care of myself, pay

(22:21):
my own bills. You know, I'm not a handicapped individual,
and don't classify my business as handicap. You know, treat me,
you know, level the playing field. We come from sport
and all we ask for is hey, man, just the
referees don't cheat like they chalk for the Lakers. No,

(22:44):
no call, you know that a chance? So sorry went
off on that. That's why I asked, That's why you
had me. I was about to let them down. Yeah,
I saw them tears coming, but you're saying, man, but
that's some deep stuff. Man. Y'all did it. I mean

(23:05):
y'all and y'all doing it, and we need y'all to
keep doing it. Appreciate it. You know. Let's stay on
the west side. Let's talk about Lord Henry. How how
big was he in your life and how nice was he? Man?
So my older brother, Lord Henry, right, um, and so
I think he may still hold of the Catholic schools
scoring record went to Saint Philip's and um, you know

(23:29):
when we talk about George Gervin, right, I didn't know
George Gervin back then. And back then the NBA one
on TV like the NBA's on TV now. So you
only admired your your the people in your neighborhood or
your older yeah, the locals, and every night and then
you may you may hear about doctor J. And then
your imagination you this is doctor J. Move but you

(23:51):
ain't never really seen him, right, Um. But my brother,
Lord Henry was so smooth man. And the name alone,
you had to be called the name. Yeah. You know,
my mom and my dad they had high hopes and
of course of the place that we was living in.

(24:12):
That's That's that's how it was. But um, but now
and and and he got turned out though you know
you got turned out on Heroin. Um ended up dying, uh,
you know, several years ago. But but man, you're talking
about a pretty jump shot. You know, between the leg
dribbles behind the bag and the way I was taught

(24:33):
to play the game and the way he taught me
to play the game, it was all spiritual. You know.
It was like and I can't I can't remember him
and my older my my second oldest brother, my third
oldest brother, Larry. You know, it's like Junior, you know,
you you just can't play the game. You gotta feel it.
I mean, you gotta when you shake, you you gotta

(24:55):
feel it. Man, you just can't. You just dribbling. But
the fun is that you dripping. Yeah, you gotta feel it, man.
And so you that's how you know you tried to play.
You tried to put that spirituality into the game where
you tried to make that person who's watching you play

(25:15):
feel what you feel. Right. And so brother Lord Henry,
you know, like I said, he died a Heroin. But
the one thing, you know, he kicked right, and I
remember when he kicked, you know, and he said, I'm
gonna go back to school. And and while he kicked,
he was like, damn, you know it was it was

(25:38):
it was easier when I was on drugs, you know,
because now now you got to get back into the system.
You've been out of the system for a long time.
But he went back graduated from college, and I never forget,
so you've been on the West side, right, we his
grad The night before graduation, I rented a bus and

(25:58):
the bus was me know, fifth Avenue in Jackson, right
and and he was graduating from UH school in Detroit
Universe with Phoenix University, you know that, yeah, that online thing.
So um. So I rented a bus and I had
the bus, you know, show up on Fifth Avenue and

(26:19):
Jackson at four in the morning, three in the morning.
Want everybody to be there at three in the morning.
Bus gonna leave at four going down to Detroit so
we can watch Lord Henry graduate at four Field. And
I never forget bus driver calling me up like, hey, man,
you you shoot I got the right address. You shoot

(26:40):
him in the right Okay. I'm like, yeah, man, you're
in the right location. So anyway, all the Lord Henry's friends.
You know, some are still addicts. Um, then some you know,
you know, I've kicked and everything. So we load up
the bus and as the bus gets loaded up, now
a drive down to Detroit. I meet him in Detroit

(27:03):
and we had his graduation and I never forget. Man,
like my brother walking across the stage, had his cap
and gown on. He didn't know what he was gonna
be there, and and all his friends started holly, Lord Henry,

(27:24):
Lord Henry. And man, he broke down on the stage
and just started crying, like crying like a little baby. Man.
That was That was one of the most beautiful days
that I remember. So when you talk about Lord Henry
as basketball playing, but the fact that that dude went
back to school and then he just died a couple
of years ago. You know, oregons just shut down all

(27:47):
of the heroin and stuff. It just body just collapsed.
But yeah, thanks for bringing him up. Thank you. Man.
I just lost my little brother. I lost my older
brother when I was young, So I know the feeling. Yeah,
I know the feeling. Yeah, Chicago Pipeline all especially now

(28:15):
all the young players that's coming out of Chicago. Man, Um,
what's in the water though. You got d Wade, Anthony Davis,
Kevin Gardner, Derek Rose, Tim Hardaway into our walker yourself,
uh will buying them? Patrick Beverly, you got so many,
so many hoopers come from there. All dogs, Yeah, all
dogs talking about what's in the water. Well, it's in

(28:37):
Detroit water not too so, I claimed Chicago, Yeah yeah,
and and and but you know for us, right, it's
so we always say the south Side like them south
Side guys, you name, they all got haircuts, you know,
they pretty what I mean, they and they and they

(28:58):
can shoot right west Side We d n up. Yeah,
so we Patrick Beverley, We Tony Allen, you know what
I mean like we, I mean we we were picking
you up ninety four feet, were getting in your face.
Tim Hardaway, you know them south Side dude, the Wayne Way.
They can score, Yeah, I mean they can they can

(29:18):
score the basketball. So it's it's like we and then
they got a lot of food over there too. We
have it food. But but I would say, just what's
in the water again, it's the spirituality of you know,
wanting to be the best and wanting to compete. And

(29:39):
the guy that we probably the most proud of out
of Chicago is Derek Row. I mean, hey, man, he
he lived all of our dream all of our dream right,
and then he plays for the Chicago Bulls, right, and
then he becomes the youngest MVP he of the league

(30:00):
at twenty Oh man. I mean, I mean, I mean
everybody's like, you know, when d Rose walk into the room,
it's like, you know, theme music be playing. I mean,
so you know, again, it's just a I think it's competition, right,
we want to compete. A lot of us really like

(30:23):
to fight. Don't say we went all our fights, right,
nobody does. Yeah, Like I grew up fighting. I had
to fight like twice a week. I didn't win all
my fights. But then you just start like fighting, right,
and you just be like A you know part of it, yeah,
And I think it's Chicago. That's that's part of like
the get down now in Detroit. So I you know,

(30:47):
when you look at what I the way I grew
up and the way I learned how to play in Chicago,
what I tried to do is take that to Detroit.
So when you look at the Chris Webber, as you
look at the Derek Colemans, you look at the Jaalen Roles.
You look at the Steve Smith, you look at you
know them. We all bring that same like okay, we

(31:07):
we come in with it. And if you don't like it,
I'm sorry. You know, Ronnie Fields, man, if he wouldn't
have gotten an accident, bro, Yeah, people don't remember, like
so KG, Right, people talk about Kevin Garnett, but in Chicago,

(31:29):
they say, Kevin Garnett played with that time. It was
like he played with man and and you talk about
somebody jumping high. Right, So when KG first got to Chicago, right,
you know, KG like to talk, and you know he
really animated, right, and he wanted to play everywhere, like everywhere,

(31:50):
and and so he growing up in the gym and
and and so everybody like, man, who is this dude?
Mane He kind of talk a lot. You know, it's
like nah, man, he good Man, he good likely Liam
And so KG like went all over Chicago playing. But
as you say, he's the guy that played with Ronnie

(32:13):
run And it's like Dwayne Wade in Chicago, right, Dwayne
Wade get mad love, but he don't get the the
the Ronnie Fields kind of loved because in Chicago, it's
what you did in high school. Yeah, if you if

(32:35):
you was the man in high school, you're the man
for life in Chicago. Chicago, Yeah, we don't have a
more decorated athlete that come out of Chicago than Dwayne Wade.
Dwayne Wade is like the gold standard, you know, Olympics,
gold medal championships, everything. Nope, no one has got more

(32:55):
you know, decorations than Dwayne Wade. But in Chicago, oh, man, man,
you know what I mean, that's how I go. You know,
it's like what you did you know in high school
is what matter? That's crazy? Uh, you end up chooting
Indiana for college? Who else was on your list? No?

(33:17):
I didn't choose Indiana Indiana. We'll talk to us about
where you're who was recruiting you, and where you wanted
to go. So, um, of course I wanted to stay
at home and go to Paul uh. And then my
second choice was Iowa with Lude Osan And um, you know,

(33:37):
so coach Rosboro was the assistant coach at Iowa and
he actually coached my brother Lord Henry and Gregory at
Our Lady of Sorrows. So if you go back and
you look at Iowa, Lude Osan always has Chicago guards,
you know, from Ronnie Lester, Kenny Arnold. I mean, so

(33:59):
he had that Chicago or pipeline, Kevin Boyle, Jim Stack,
and he was able to get all him because he
had Rossborough who had coach on the West Side. So, um,
I wanted to go to De Paul, wanted to stay home.
And at that time we were we were poured and poor,
you know, no lights, no gas, no food, you know,

(34:22):
struggling every day. And you know, at that time people
was offering you money to come to school. And I
never forget, you know, had had I stayed home in Chicago,
things would have been really nice for the family. I
don't know if I would be alive to day though,

(34:42):
if I would have stayed home in Chicago. And and
y'all can understand this, and I've never really said this,
but growing up in the neighborhood that I grew up
in and growing up the way we grew up, my
mom made the wise decision and said, you know, you're
going to go to in Indiana. M had I stayed

(35:02):
in Chicago, I don't know, if you know, running the
running around doing the things that we were doing. Yeah,
So but she chose Indiana for me. You know, legend
has it that when Bob Knight showed up, the whole
neighborhood showed up, The whole neighborhood showed up, and and
then there was a fight almost that broke out to

(35:23):
so my so, my uh so, my two older brothers,
you know, all my brothers were there. Um and my
second oldest brother, Gregory. Um, I'm sure you heard about
my second older brother, Gregory. Uh so. He so, he
asked Coach Knight the question. You know, it's like, you know,
you know, Coach, like, if if Junior was to you know,

(35:45):
go down to Indiana. You know, we we know the
clan is right there, and if something was to go down,
you know, who's gonna look out for Junior? And I thought, coach,
and I gave a you know, a pretty slick and
so you know what I mean, He's like, you know, well,
if if we're winning, then they're gonna look out. And

(36:10):
he said if we lose it, you know, and you know,
everybody kind of laughed off, but my brother he didn't
like that answer. Now and so so back up, So
Coach Night when he come to visit me, he walked
in with Wayne Embury and Quinn Buckner. Now Quinn Buckner,
you know, undefeated, you know at thorn Ridge, undefeated at

(36:34):
Indiana and in Wayne Embury first black general manager, you
know in Milwaukee. Now he walked in, he flanked with him, right,
and he coming to recruit me. So Dick respect walking
through the door. So my brother didn't like his answer, right,
And and so my brother, you know, my brother was
lit at the time. I mean he was you know,

(36:58):
that's just how they was, right. And so my brother
was like, hey, man, I you know, I don't like that.
You know that, what you mean they gonna take care
we we take care of junior, you know. And and
so the conversation quickly got heated, and you know, I
you know, the voices raised and everything else. And and

(37:21):
so everybody's like, na, no, y'all calm down. No Eve did.
And so coach and I stood up. You know, my
brother's like, well, we can take this outside. So Coach
Night stood up and took off his jacket and started
rolling up in sleeves like it's like, yeah, we could
take this outside. And everybody's like no, no, no, no.
And so I look over there and my mom, right,

(37:42):
my Mom just sitting there, real quiet, kind of nodding
her head, doing like this, And I'm like, oh, she
liked it. To dude, she liked it all. She's falling
for it. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, man, I'm glad they
didn't go outside, as you gonna get jumped. Oh. He
wouldn't have made it back in, but he thought it's

(38:09):
just gonna be a one on one thing. Nah, he
wouldn't have made it back end, as a matter of fact.
As a matter of fact, he would have got stuck
up first. Yeah, stuck. Yeah, but he wouldn't have made
it back in, you know, for sure. I remember I
remember Bob Knight called me my senior year. Um, he called.

(38:31):
He called my house. My mom asks the phone. She
was talking to him. She's like, I'm gonna put you
on speaker pall. This was his exact words. Do you
want to come to Indiana? Not? Right? Straight up? Bro.
I'm like, huh, I'm like I'm gonna. Mom like I
don't know. She like, excuse me, Yeah, do you want
to come to Indiana? Not? And she was like, well,
we'll have to give you a call back. She wasn't
expecting to be so blunt. And that's all he said. Bro, yeah,

(38:53):
never heard from again, recruiting trip. Do you want to
come to Indiana? Not yeah, that's it. No, he was
straight game with it. He walked up in the house
and say, look, I'm off for your son three things.
Miss Now this me sitting here right, He's like, Miss Thomas,
I'm asking I'm off for your son three things. He's
gonna be a gentleman, graduate from college, and I'm gonna

(39:16):
teach him how everything I knew about basketball. And I'm like,
well that ain't enough where the money at, you know
what I mean. He's like, and but you know, that's
how he recruited. And the thing that the thing that
that my mom and I would say my sister that

(39:38):
they really loved that. I didn't understand at that time
what coach Knight was doing in the seventies and a
little bit of the eighties, taking young classified as black

(40:00):
in young boys in the United States of America, taking
them down to Bloomington, Indiana, booking by a clan. Right,
everybody graduated from college, everybody's doing well, everybody won championships.

(40:26):
And he didn't cheat, and he didn't cheat, and he
didn't cheat, and that was unheard of during that period
of time because going to college, he was gonna take
basket weaving. You know, you didn't have to go to class.
Somebody's gonna be doing your homework. Everybody who graduated from

(40:50):
Indiana you went to school, You did your homework, and
you got a real grade. Yeah yeah yeah. How long
did it take for you to buy in? Though? I
mean he compromised, he I had, you know, it was like,
hey man, this Hay's gonna be like, you know, one
no place to go. You know, I got kicked off

(41:12):
the team a couple of times, and and I was like,
I'm leaving, I'm going home. But then I remember one
of the lights at home, when no food at home,
when no gas at home. So and you weren't getting
no sympathy from your mom. Your mom was like, you know,
you gotta stay there. So But the thing that I
the thing that I loved about Coach Night now that

(41:35):
I'm older, is that he had the courage to coach me.
He had the courage to have confrontation with me. He
had the courage to make me do right when I
wanted to be wrong right. He didn't let me slide,
He didn't let me get by. And it would have
been easier for him to do that now that I

(41:56):
was looking back, because I was pretty good at the time,
but I didn't know how good I was as a player, right,
so he let me, you know, he he basically was like, no,
you you you gotta go to class. Man. If you
don't go to class, you can't come to practice. You
can't lay in your bed all day and think you're
gonna come to practice and didn't go to class. That

(42:19):
that that ain't happening. Now. Of course, that's what I
wanted to do. That's what we all wanted to do.
So and then in terms of freedom, right like we
had no plays at Indiana, we didn't have out of
bounds to play. We weren't coming down calling played twenty

(42:41):
two up, thirty two out, you know one. It was like,
now you gotta get to know your teammate. And once
you get to know your teammate, then you'll know if
he's going left or right. But we played this this
game they call passing games, similar what Golden State does.
Now that Steve Kirk from the you know, he comes

(43:01):
from the coaching tree, right lude osan Um. You know,
when you look at Ludosan when you look at pop
you know, all of them really have you know, similar
coaching trees and thinking philosophies, very similar to the night right.
So that passing game, that that that that that uh

(43:24):
that know your teammate, understand what your teammate's gonna do.
Uh you know how we're going to attack the opponent,
how we're gonna dissect him. Uh some some teams only
entered the ball on the left side of the court,
or tonight you're gonna entered it on the right side,
you know. Um So that was the way he made

(43:46):
you think and play. Uh so, Yeah, And he always
says to thinking man's game, mental is the physical as
for as to one, And you know, if you can't think,
then you you you got no shot against playing against me.
Mental is too physical as for as to one. Yes, okay,
I just wanted to make sure. Yeah, it's a thinking

(44:06):
man's game and you you have to think your way
through the game, and you're gonna have him thinking about
that analogy the whole. Yeah. Yeah, two year pit stop
you win a champion National Championship in eighty one dropped
twenty three verse, Sam Perkins and James Worthy over North Carolina.
What was your favorite on the court moments in college? Was? It?

(44:29):
Was it that championship? Two favorites. The first favorite was
February fourteenth in Iowa Mike Woodson's return because my freshman
year he had back surgery. We were ranked number one.
Woodson goes down, Whitman goes down, Bushi goes down, and

(44:50):
we like, you know, we foll turing. Right, Woodson comes
back and that's his first game and it's in Iowa City,
and it's my freshman year and my whole my whole
time now, you know, playing for coach Night. I'm waiting
for this genius moment, right, I'm waiting for him to

(45:11):
grab the clipboard, you know, and draw up some stuff.
And but I ain't seen no clipboard and like, you know,
I ain't seen the clipboard like since I got there. Right,
So we down, we down one in Iowa. It was
what his first game back in and we called time

(45:32):
out and now I'm like, okay, this this is the moment.
Something gotta happen. I know. We get ready to draw
up a play now, right, this was the play he said, Whitson,
can you make a shot? What he said, Yeah, I
knock it down. Coach, he said. He called me Peewee. Say, okay, Peewee,

(45:53):
I want you to move the ball around October. I
want you to set the screen for what'son. What'son? I
want you to get open, Peewee. When he gets open,
I want you to hit it. Would he knocked the
shot down. I'm like, on the left side, the right side,
where where's what's gonna be. I'm scared. I'm like scared.

(46:16):
I'm like walking down on the floor. I'm like, okay,
how are we gonna get the ball in right? He
wants you to put everybody in place. I'm like, hey, man,
just all I'm doing. So I passed it, didn't I
run over there getting check and so I'm waiting for
wood to wood. He come off tober sets of down screen, what'son?
Comes off on the left side. I hit him boom boom,

(46:39):
and he banks it right off the glass. And to me,
that was the most That was one of the most
beautiful moments I have experienced because what he recruited me.
That was my senior year. He had back surgery. You know,
he's coming back, you know, and so I was like, okay,
second best moment was, you know, be North Carolina in

(46:59):
that final game. So two things happened in that game.
In the first half, North Carolina got out to a
good start, and I knew we didn't had a talent
to play with them, right talent for talent, they were
better James Worthy, Sam Perkins, al Would that's the back line.

(47:21):
Worthy was a number one pick. I think Perkins was like,
you know, five or six and al Will was like
ten or something. But North Carolina they played that platoon system.
So I was just they got up and I was like, okay,
we just got a hold home, fellas, because five minutes
they're gonna take Worthy out. They're gonna take Worthy and

(47:44):
Perkins out. And when they took them out, that's when
we was able to come back. But one of the
biggest plays I thought in that game, clock's running down.
We got the last shot out a half and Whipman's
in the in the in the right corner and I'm
standing there were you know, I'm dribbling the ball, trying

(48:07):
to you know, make sure like everybody is set doing
what they're supposed to do, trying to stall time and
whopmen and I make eye contact and you know, we
run the clock down, kick it over the whipmen. He
knocks down the shot the in the in the first half,
they gave us crazy momentum going in because I think

(48:28):
we either went up one or was down one. We
come back out the third, uh to start the second half,
and then I take over. So you know that, But
I thought that shot was one of the biggest moments
in the game. Yeah, nineteen eighty one draft, you go
number two overall to the Pistons, probably the worst team
in the league. Before you got there, you knew what

(48:50):
she was walking into though, Right, No, I didn't. You didn't,
he said, I understanding. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. Now,
you know, when you hear the worst team, you know
you you don't. You have no idea what the worst team?
That's like, you know what they really mean, right you? So?

(49:12):
Um there, So there was no culture, there was no Now,
I come from every place I've been, I've won, right
and and so there there's rules, there's there's there's discipline,
there's a way of acting, there's a way of being,
there's a way of doing things. Um and and so

(49:36):
when I get to Detroit, those it was like, what
are we doing like, how are we going to win?
That's all I'm trying to figure out, is how are
we going to win? And so I had to go
to school, right, and where I went to school. I
went to the Lakers school and I went to the
Celtics school. So I started following them around. And fortunately

(50:00):
enough for me, Magic Johnson who had just come off
winning the NBA Championship and being the MVP of the
championship game. Now he like, he's like, come on, man,
you with me? And I'm like, really, I'm with you.
He's like, yeah, so we So now I'm I'm I'm

(50:20):
watching the Lakers. I'm watching him, and I'm watching how
how they train, how they practice, how they come together.
Kevin McAll and I were friends, uh, you know since
high school, played on the PanAm team together. So now
I get to you know, I watch how Boston do things.
mL Car you know, still talk with him today, you

(50:41):
know Maxwell. I mean so, so the Celtics and the
Lakers really like, let me like, in their locker room.
You look at all the championship celebrations in the eighties,
you will see Isaiah Thomas in them locker rooms watching
them celebrate. Right, Um, you know, on their exit meetings.
I'm with Magic at the exit meetings, you know, when

(51:02):
they lost to Boston in the room, in the fucking room,
I'm like, I'm listening to pat Riley, you know, give
his thing. Jerry West, Who's steal my man the day? Right,
Jerry West. They let me in to the sanctuary. I
was one of them, right, And and so I learned.

(51:23):
And so in learning, not only did it make me better,
but it I was able to bring some things back
to the Pistons in terms of, hey, if we want
to win in this league, this what it looked say
that again, what it looked like, right, because we had
no idea. So so it's like, okay, how are you

(51:47):
going to win in this league? You you you gotta learn,
you gotta get educated, right, And and they let me in.
And so so I'm there when Magic Johnson dribble out
the shot clock and they're calling him Tragic Johnson, right,
and I'm in his hotel room, me Mark and this

(52:09):
dude laying on the floor bawling, I mean just hurt ring,
you know, just you know that kind of cry, right,
and and and we stayed up with him until you know,
bus was leaving at five thirty in the morning, and

(52:29):
he just laying on the floor, just bawling. Right, come
down to escalator, get on the bus, go back to LA.
So I get a chance to watch y'all at I
get a chance to see James Worthy, right, take the
ball out on the sideline inbounded Gerald Henderson steals it, right,
he goes lazy. So I get to see all a heartbreak,

(52:52):
but also get to see that bounce back. I get
to see that bounce back. Right, and so when Magic loss. Right. Now,
at summer, we were training, we're working out, and that
dude shot me with so many bowls, right, And finally
I just had to say, look, man, I'm not Larry Bird.

(53:13):
You got cut this shit out. But I mean he
was training so hard and so now Mark and now
we're going through all all stuff. Right, that's summer. That
dude shot maybe a thousand free throws a day, and

(53:33):
I'm like, right, are you sing so many free throws?
But come on, man, you know, work on your jump shot.
You know, we gotta get your j right now, that
dude went from being an eighty three eighty four percent
jumped to ninety wow, jumped to ninety percent from the

(53:55):
fire line, then became the MVP of the league, you
know what I mean. So, so watching that and learning that,
so when you say, now to Detroit Pistons, So we
didn't have no culture, So what did I do? Right,
It's like, Okay, this is who we are. We need

(54:16):
an identity. This is who we're going to become. This
is how we're gonna dress, This is how we're gonna talk,
this is how we're gonna look. Right, and and then
bringing some stuff from the neighborhood. Right, um, you know
that that that ten point program, right, you know, it's
like it's like we're gonna we're gonna instill, listen to

(54:37):
our teams. Right, there's gonna be some rules. This is
how we're gonna follow. This, how we're gonna act. This's
how we're gonna march. Is how we're gonna beat. This
is who we are in this NBA league and still today,
this is who we are, this is what we do now.
If we didn't establish that that culture, that language, that

(54:58):
belief system, those values, you know, we we didn't have
the type of talent that LA had. We didn't have
the type of talent that Boston had, But we had
a belief system that was so strong that it's gonna
mess you up when I say this deal, Lamb Beier

(55:21):
believed that he can compete every single night against Kareem
Abtol a strong beliefship. Come on, work with me. Think,
Think about what I just said, Think about what I
just said. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean it's
like that that in itself, right, Lamb Beier walking out

(55:48):
on the floor with the belief and understanding that number
thirty three in purple or number thirty three in gold,
if I do what I'm supposed to do, I can
beat you. M m. Nobody in the world would agree
with him, and they didn't. They still don't believe it.

(56:13):
I'm just glad the film Don't Lie, Film Don't Lie.
We just have Barkley on. And Barkley was talking about
around the time you come in, how Bird and Magic
saved the league. Do you agree with that? I think
Bird and Magic saved the league, and I think the
league took off when the Detroit Pistons showed up on
the scene. I think Bird and Magic. You know what

(56:38):
the NBA was coming out of in the seventies, um
and and how the United States was. I mean, we
have to talk about that now, how the United States
was for for black men in the seventies and then
Bird and Magic being on the stage in the in
the early eighties coming out of college and then you know,

(57:00):
playing that you know that game again, Magic come to
La Burger, going to Boston. You know, they walked into culture,
they walked into a foundation, they walked into a way
of being, they walked into winning. They didn't have to
you know, get a piece of paper and go to
school and get educated. They walked into it. Right now,

(57:22):
that help. But what the ratings say and what the
numbers say when the league took off is whenning bad
boys from the Detroit Pistons showed up. Because we showed
up with a totally different kind of crowd. We had,
you know, people from all different walks of life, and

(57:45):
we started putting fifty sixty thousand people in the Silver Dome.
And then we had three rivalries. I think we're the
only team that only had three rivalries, the Lakers, the Celtics,
in the Bulls, right, so every time we played, every
everywhere we moved, right, it was it was different. And

(58:07):
then we didn't understand what we didn't know. So we
met a gentleman about the name of Mike Orenstein with
the La Raiders or the Oakland Raiders at that time
what they called cross marketing. Today, we didn't know there
was such a term as cross marketing. But all connection
with the Oakland Raiders. Then let us start changing all colors.

(58:32):
So we went from the red, white and blue to
the silver and black, and then we had a second jersey,
we had a second uniform, you know, in the NBA
really didn't own any of that. So when we walked
off the stage and the Bulls walked on the stage,
that's when y'all got the shooting jerseys. That's when they
started changing, you know, the different color uniforms and everything else.

(58:55):
But the Pistons started all that. So the highest rated
games in the eighties Pistons against Celtics, Pistons against Lakers,
Pistons against Bulls, and they all have one thing in common.
That's a Detroit Pistons to the attitude of energy, y'all
brod first NBA game thirty one and eleven, crazy first

(59:17):
Game thirty one eleven. Geez, you make the All Star
Amage Rookie year two. Clearly the leader of your team.
Did that come to you naturally or like when you
when you showed up they knew you was leader, or
did you have to fight for that. I never thought
of myself as the leader. I never thought of myself
as the captain. It's you know, leadership is given. You

(59:43):
never walk into a room and be like, I'm the leader.
You know, it's they vote on it. You know who's
going to be the captain. Okay, you can be the captain.
And and I was selected the captain and the leader
only because they trust me, right and in that type
of trust is earned, and then you have to honor

(01:00:04):
it too. Like that means hold, Yeah, that means you
can't go out when everybody else is going out, right,
you can't. I mean, I don't know, meant that much. Yeah, yeah,
you can't. You can't do the things that everybody else
is doing it because you know that there's a certain
amount of trust and respect that goes along with that. Yeah.
So that that first game against Milwaukee, I'm playing against

(01:00:27):
you know, not Quinn Buckner. I'm playing against him. It's
my first time playing against him. You know, that dude
was just in my house. He went undefeated. He went
undefeated in high school and undefeated in college. Still the
last undefeated team right now. I'm playing against him and
he like, hey, junior, how you doing. This'll be a

(01:00:48):
bad night, right, And and so I remember, like the
first two or three plays, I get by them and
I go down the lane. I go down the lane
to make a layup. I come back down the lane again,
and Bob Lanier literally I'm up in the air like this,
and he goes, caught you in the air, caught me

(01:01:11):
in the air and set me down and said, look,
don't come down here no more. I was like, Okay,
my jump shot got real good because when he when
he called because when he called me, it wasn't you know,
when them guys hit you, right, It wasn't like a

(01:01:32):
gentle womb, you know. It was like yeah, and they
put that force behind him, and yeah, you feel that, right, dude?
Set me down, man. And you know, but I had
a good game that night, but I was looking forward
to the next night. So you talk about that thirty
one in the level. The next night, then we go
home to play the Chicago Bulls and I dropped thirty

(01:01:56):
in that game. Now, that's the game that I really
like because not all my boys, everybody, I mean everybody there.
You know, Red Magic trip from Chicago to Boston. How
long is that trip? Bust her car from Chicago to Detroit.
Oh that's it's four hours and it's three and a half. Yeah,

(01:02:18):
Jack can get there three yeah, yeah, so straight down
ninety four. So now you know, we go to Chicago,
I can say Red Magic one, all my brothers them there,
you know, all I mean everybody up in the stands,
you know, and my my mom and my my aunt.
Like back then they didn't have them, the metal detectors.

(01:02:39):
So my mom she believed in the Second Amendment. Now yeah,
Binky and my aunt got a switch blade. She carried
switch blade and you and and I don't know if
people remember this, but you know, like she would be
sitting there talking, right and you remember tricks. They could
do tricks with this play, you know, and she likes,

(01:03:02):
you know, be talking to you and like twirling it
all around and hitting it and them nice with it
and close it up only when they finished. And so
they would bring food to the game, so they bringing
their chicken and everything, and you know, and so and
I'll never forget. So we um Ricky Sobers was the
guard then one number fourteen. Sobers played at UNLV right,

(01:03:26):
and and so we you know, I'm I'm going through
my stuff. I went between my legs and that dude
like hit me so hard. I damn right. You know,
I folded up right because back then, you know, they
didn't like when you try to show them off. Like night.
You can just go through your legs and everything else
for a long time. Then they stand up and so um,

(01:03:49):
I say, Man, don't hit me like that no more.
You know what you gonna do a little pump? I said, okay,
And so you see all them people sitting up there,
so you live here, So you hit me like that
one more time, you won't live here no more. Straight up,

(01:04:10):
that simple. And you know had a good game. You know,
win it the year. Jordan's is the league at the time.

(01:04:30):
The East has loaded yourself, m J Bird, Dominique, Moses Malone,
Charles Barkley, doctor j Um. What was the Eastern Conference
back in the middle of the eighties? Like every night,
you see, I just took a simple war. All names
you just named off. I was like Chevy, I'm sweating now,
Like man, Philadelphia was so good back then, Mo Cheeks,

(01:04:57):
Andrew Tony, Doctor Ja, Moses Malone, Bobby Jones. They don't
get enough credit for what they was doing in the eighties.
Back then. I mean that team was and then they
got Barkley, right, It just unfair, right, Bird McHale Parish,
you know a Milwaukee That Milwaukee team was loaded with

(01:05:19):
Marcus Johnson and all of them. So we you know,
it was it was hell, you know up in there.
But what what we had and what we were developing
was different than all the other teams, right, all those
teams you just named. What we was developing was identity, culture,

(01:05:45):
belief systems, you know, understand and you know those those
those you know, those things that you carry with you
for the rest of your life. Right, that's what we
was building as a team. And talent wise, all those
people that you just named, we didn't have that kind

(01:06:06):
of talent. But what we could do is we could
outscheme you and and we can adhere to a game
plan and concentrate and do it for two and a
half hours. Most teams, most players, they can't. They can't
concentrate for two and a half hours, right, And so
when when Jordan came in, you know, in eighty four

(01:06:28):
eighty five, right, you know, he was mega talented. And
not only was he mega talented, but we we had
never seen an athlete like that. You got to remember,
like in the NBA at that time, you know, doctor
j still was the best athlete. And when Jordan came in,

(01:06:50):
younger than doctor Jay, I was like, Okay, he's the
next Doctor Jay. And you know when nobody jumping from
the fire line and in the air and doing all
the stuff around the rim that he was doing. Nobody
you didn't have athletes like that, so he was. He
was a fascinating watch. So due bars and that, right,

(01:07:14):
you know, we would we would be I'll never forget
every time Chicago played, you know, Joe and I would
be on the phone and we'd be talking because we
gotta we got to play against him, right, And they
were playing New Jersey in Chicago, and Joe and I,
you know, we were talking and and Jordan came down

(01:07:38):
on the left side, caught on the left wing, went
through a couple of dribbles and then he took off
on the left box and dude floated all the way
to the right box and then laid it up on
the other side. That's where to God joined out on

(01:08:02):
the phone and for about five minutes, Man, it was
just dead, silent, dead silent. Do we just see Yeah?
And then and then all of a sudden it was like,
I man, I see you practice tomorrow to deal with
I mean that dude jumped from the left box and

(01:08:24):
was up in the air and went all the way
over to the right box and laid it up. It
was like we had Magic on the show um at
the end of December, and your name came up, and
Magic was talking about what you and him went through

(01:08:47):
and how you guys were able to sit down and
and patch it up, which is beautiful, by the way,
Thank you. Everyone was big fans of that. But he
also said he would like to see you, would Mike
patch it up? You called me after that and we
had a conversation on the phone about what was going
You care to share any of that? Hey, man? You know,
I just I just want some people to be honest.

(01:09:09):
I got I got no problem sitting down talking with anybody,
right And as you can see, you know, I'm your
open book. You know I live with love, peace, truth,
you know, honesty, courage, I'm you know, I stand on
my square. I'm upright. You know, I'm independent, and I

(01:09:30):
sit in any chair and I talk to anybody, right.
But some people don't. They ain't been telling the truth
right now, anywhere, anytime publicly, I don't. Don't. Don't don't
call me behind the scenes, apologizing or asking your friends
to apologize. Right, you got on national television and you

(01:09:53):
call me an asshole, and then you said you hated me.
You said that on national television. Now, if you didn't
mean it, get on national television, say that and apologize
for it. Now, if you meant it, let it ride
as it is. But so I called you in that

(01:10:15):
same day. You know who I call? I called Magic Johnson.
Magic was on the plane. There was shooting a commercial
in Atlanta. Him, Sam Jackson, everybody else. We were staying
in the Four Seasons Hotel. We missed each other, right

(01:10:36):
because he said he had to go, so he on
the plane, right, I called him up. Magic didn't mention
Michael Jordan. All right, So I'm still waiting. You know,
everybody say this stuff publicly. Right, I'm gonna do this.
I'm gonna do this. Somebody that all right, Well, I'm
I'm the type of guy. I sit here, I talk
to you, I talk to you. It ain't a person

(01:10:59):
in this unit in the States of America that I'm
not willing to sit down and have a conversation with
and break bread with. But if you line and throwing
stones from behind the scenes, okay, that's you. But if
you're honest and you upright on your square, I'm willing

(01:11:21):
to deal with. Yeah. You know, so that's all I know.
Now where do we go from here? I mean, you
told me something to see me. You have family that
had stayed with him, and say, at one point, absolutely
eight when when Jordan first came to Chicago. First of all,

(01:11:43):
we were fans of his and to some extent still
fans of his. My family, his family. Not only did
they socialize, hang out, but as I said, you know,

(01:12:05):
I little nephew that lived with him, and and everybody's
still cool. Right, Ain't no, ain't no hate for Jordan.
We just want some realness, right did you just you know,
like I said, you you got on national television and
at nobody ain't nobody nowhere has ever got on national

(01:12:28):
television and called me an asshole and then publicly said
you hate me. I ain't heard that from you. I
ain't heard that from you. I ain't heard that from
no NBA player. And so I'm and by the way,
all them years that you supposedly hated me, you voted

(01:12:51):
for me to be the president of your union. Yeah,
you know, I've seen a lot of pictures of All
Star games and y'all laughing at joke and it didn't
look like Yeah, I'm just saying, like, you know, if
that you know now now maybe you felt like that
privately and I didn't know, but now that I do know.

(01:13:12):
And by the way, if you didn't meet it that way,
then publicly say it, don't privately say it. You know, magic,
we don't need a private conversation. This man did this
on national television internationally. I have to answer this question
right in every interview that I sit down, and do

(01:13:33):
you asking me this question right? So now now I'm
the one who's looking like, oh, why are you talking
about Jordan? Why are you saying it? When you to
put that out there? And now you at home or
on your golf course or doing whatever you do, and
now I got to answer this BS question. So if
you're mad enough and you and you and you. If

(01:13:58):
you meant it, leave it as it is. But if
you didn't mean it, didn't come out and clean it
up the same way it came out, the same way
it came out with the same intensity. You gotta respect
that though. That's why I say I mean because if
she was on the foot. I know I've been disrespected
a lot, But if somebody dispected me on TV doing

(01:14:18):
the game, but also at the end of the game,
they sound like, you know what I remember I said that,
let me clear this up. What we get off air,
I gotta respect that. I can't hold it. I can't
be mad at him no more because he corrected himself.
Are you you said? Magic and I sat down and
squash whatever we had publicly publicly, Magic Johnson apologize. He said,
I'm sorry if I hurt you. When I hurt you,

(01:14:42):
I didn't mean that all. I'm good with that. Yeah,
I got to accept that and we move on. But
if you're gonna let this linger out here in this
basketball world, and you got everybody else talking, but you
ain't saying something, Matthew meant it, stand on it, stand

(01:15:04):
on it. But if you didn't mean it, clean it up.
You mentioned, uh, you know, obviously there's no secret that
you and Magic were we best to friends at one point,
and what did it mean to you, to you guys
to be able to sit down and clear that air
for you, it meant a lot, not only to me,
but we didn't know, and I didn't know how much

(01:15:26):
it would mean to all of us, to the world.
I had no idea, you know, because when you when
you're going through that, you're just thinking about yourself. You're
not thinking about really how it's affecting other people. And
I just had the same thing happened with Karl Malone
and I right and by way, thank you, Ken, you
love you, sacking all strong, um, But you don't realize

(01:15:52):
what the other person is carrying, right you you're feeling,
you know, yourself in your grief and you're hurt. But
the other person who's carrying that guilt, when you have
the opportunity and you can relieve them of that, not

(01:16:14):
knowing that that's how much they carry in right that
that that was a powerful moment not only for he
and I, but it was a powerful moment for the world,
which we didn't know. So it's like two moments we've
had that we didn't realize what we was really doing.
That ended up changing a lot of stuff like when
he and I like first hugged and kissed, right, ah,

(01:16:38):
oh you know what they It's like I can't I
can't meet my brother and give him a hand shake.
Whenever I met family, it was always an embrace, right
when we did when we did that in the eighties,
two men, right, black masculinity, you know, and being called
into question. You're not supposed to you know, you're supposed

(01:17:00):
to have this, you know, this toughness about you and
all this stuff. Well, when we broke down that barrier,
we didn't realize what we had really done. Now when
we saw each other to day, first thing we did
we hug you. I can't wait to hug you when
I see you. Yeah, let me. And then then then
we hugged for a minute because I wanted to feel you, right,

(01:17:21):
And but back then that was so controversial. Right now,
us coming together forgiving compassion, love, friendship, right, it's another
powerful moment, not knowing that that's what we were doing, right,

(01:17:42):
you know. So, and I'm glad that he and I
got to share that. I mean, you mentioned and obviously
this is going to come up to You mentioned you
got a chance to sit down with Carl at this
last All Star in Utah. What you know, how did
that go? Man? For years, Man, I wanted to do
something to call man. I know when you mentioned some
people might have met, but Kmart told this story about

(01:18:03):
how he was watching that game on TV when he
was a youngster, and and and got him back for you. Yeah,
and I'm saying thank you. Yeah what I'm saying, so
you said thank you for people might have but let
me but let me say, let me say why I
said thank you, and then let me let me go
further with that because for years, I dude put a

(01:18:25):
mark on me, man, And and for years I was like,
I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna get my mark back. You know,
you put a scar on me, and I'm get my
scar back. And I get my scar back. We even
but you know, not my though my scar back, believe

(01:18:51):
you know, straight up. But and and so fast forward, right,
you know, I'm carrying this around for years, years, for years,
last dance come out and and you know every you know,
the narrative was, you know, everybody hated I said, you know,

(01:19:14):
nobody wanted him around, Nobody wanted him to be a
part of it so far. So so that was what's
being played. So now on the background, I'm getting calls
from everybody. I'm getting calls from the Shock Hit, the
Chicago Bulls team, teammates, people in the Chicago Bulls front office.
I'm getting calls from people who was on the Dream Team, saying,

(01:19:34):
hey man, that ain't me. You know how I feel
about Okay? Cool? Then I don't get called from call
and I'm like and he says, hey man, And this
was years ago, saying hey man, I just want to
tell you, like, you know, I hear all this stuff

(01:19:56):
about the Dream Team. You know, I car talk. I'm
a man, I'm a real man. I don't you know.
I ain't handing behind nothing. You know, I I didn't
have nothing to do with that. You're not making a team.
As a matter of fact, you know, I'm speaking for Stockton.
Then I we and he said this on camera. He said,
if there was a secret meeting, me and Stockton weren't

(01:20:16):
a part of those secret meeting trying to keep you
off the team. That wasn't us. So now you know
my next question is, you know so man, why you
hit me like that? And this is what I have
to respect. And and Kenyan, I hope you can respect
this too, brother, because and and you know, and all

(01:20:37):
my people in Chicago and in Detroit everywhere. I hope
y'all can respect this about Karl Malone because what he
said was, Hey, look, I I meant to hit you.
That's how we played. You come down the lane, you're
gonna you're gonna get some physicality. So I meant to
do it, he said. But I but I didn't mean

(01:21:00):
to do that. And I apologize because I didn't mean
to do that. Hey, I have to accept that, you
know what I mean? Because that now, if he would
have been like, I'm a tough guy. You know, that's
how we played, and yeah, I'm a lady blah blah blah.
But at the same time, now now he gets emotional

(01:21:22):
and he started crying. And you know when people started crying,
Now you crying, yeah, yeah, So you never know what
people dealing with. Yeah, And so I I was only
looking at it from my point of view. I never
knew the type of guilt that he was walking around carrying.

(01:21:43):
And so by me saying, hey man, it's Okay, I
love you, brother, We're good man. He said, you just
took the whole weight off my show. Now, I never
knew he was walking around with Wait. I just thought
he was walking around like, yeah, I'm a tough dude.
Look what I did to you and and somebody else.
I'm a dude. But that ain't the way he was thinking.

(01:22:04):
And when he said, yeah, I meant to hit you,
but I didn't mean to do that. Now, that last
part I got to accept, right, And that's you know
that that was real. So I respect that mid eight
is mid to late eight as you start winning, start
going on the role. We clicked. We became one, everybody

(01:22:27):
on the same page page, Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I
don't care who you sit in this chair. If he's
a piston, he's gonna tell the same story. He's gonna
act the same way. He's gonna care himself the same way.
We still got a group chat. John said, nah, nah, no,

(01:22:49):
this this this is who we are from day one. Right,
That's what clicked. It wasn't like we became better basketball players.
We became like this as opposed to being five individuals.
Right now, punch is more profit than the slap all

(01:23:10):
the time, Bruce Lee talking too. And when you and
when you put some when you put some energy in
there behind that, and that's what we was walking up
in there with, right, all force. Right, teams had no
they had no shot, right because all allur togetherness, all force.

(01:23:35):
It was intimidating. So when you say what made it
come together is those sacrifices, those individual sacrifices that we
all was making, that community, that communication, that crying, that breakdown,
those heartaches, you know, all that that that that staying
together and then you you become one. And when we

(01:23:58):
became one, we we're probably we're definitely the most misunderstood
team that's ever played in the NBA. And we're the
most misunderstood team that's ever played in the NBA. And
I say team because we were a team. The NBA,

(01:24:21):
you know, wants to promote individuals. You know, my whole team,
you know my you know, you know our team to
the ninth tenth man name, yes, our team, right, And
that's how we promoted ourselves, right. The NBA wanted to
give you the individual we like, Nah were coming to

(01:24:42):
the captains meant we came to the captains meeting one
time and our whole team came to them, and so
that that type of togetherness, that type of chemistry. Now,
these are the facts our first championship in eighty nine,

(01:25:04):
because they didn't understand us, and we got the best
record in the league. But we don't have one All
Pro on All Team. I didn't make first team. I
didn't make second team. I didn't make third team. Joe
didn't make first team, second team or third Robin didn't
make first team, second team or third team. Lamb Beard

(01:25:24):
didn't make first Now, we got the best record in
the league, and we swept the Lakers, right, And they
say the Lakers was hurt, but they don't never say
I was hurt when they beat us, Right, you know that,
But you know and and and the other point I
want to make is the sacrifices in terms of team.

(01:25:47):
Not only did we not have anybody make All Pro,
but nobody averaged twenty points a game. I led with nineteen.
This one had eighteen two, half seventeen from the half fifteen.
That they're the balance. If we were a team, who
are you gonna who are you gonna stop? One night?

(01:26:08):
I get thirty five, right game five to go to
the to the to to beat Boston the year before,
I had thrown the ball away. Come back in eighty eight,
we back in game five again, Junior, what you're gonna do?
I got magic in my mind. I got James Worthy

(01:26:30):
in my mind because I didn't seen them get up.
Come back to that game five. At game five in Boston,
I dropped thirty five, thirty six, had like a great game,
come back Game six on the close out game you
know what I mean, points I scored and close our
game nine. You know who got hot? Benny Michael Wave

(01:26:52):
Benny Benny got hot, and it was like, all right,
go go Now if we was playing analytic basketball and
playing selfish basketball, hey man, I gotta get my twenty,
get my I gotta keep my average up right. And
so that balance that you talk about. We can't beat
the Lakers in the Celtics individually, but our team can

(01:27:15):
we beat the team? Hell yeah? A lot of people
say Boston Celtics, the team yeah you played against was
the probably the most fundamentally sound team ever to play
in the NBA. Um you was able to battle with them?
How good were they? They were? That? They were that?
Not not only were they that, but they were so smart.

(01:27:39):
I mean Walton Bird with cal Parish Angel Dennis Johnson.
One point in time, they had Nate Archiball, Scott Webman.
I mean, I mean they were just loaded with talent
but extremely smart. In one year they went forty and
one at home. How about that, it went forty and

(01:28:04):
one at home. That's how good they were. Now, now
that's how good we were. Okay, arguably they say that's
one of the best teams to ever play in the NBA,
if not the best one. That was eighty eighty six

(01:28:27):
eighty seven, right, and then the Lakers, right they you know,
one and two, those are the two best teams they
say that ever play. Well, that's who we beat Random
Both down. That's who we beat Random Both down. That's
how good we were. Yeah, well, you know right, well,

(01:28:47):
you know like like like like you say, y'all, y'all
the only ones that beat all three of them, Mjo,
Magic and Bird name somebody else will beat all three, y'all,
all three of them. And let me let me put
enough something to it. Yeah, let me add something to it.
When we beat them, they were all MVPs of the league.

(01:29:13):
Magic was MVP of the league. Jordan was MVP of
the league. Bird was MVP of the league when we
beat him. Is right there? Give me give me a
little bit more about the LB though, lad bird man,
give me a story man about LB Man. So I

(01:29:38):
don't know if people, I don't know how this is
gonna play with America, right, but let me just tell
you what this dude told me one time, right now,
all back line. At one time it was Kelly Tripuca,
Bill Lambier, Kim Benson, three white dudes. Two of might

(01:30:02):
have heard of all right. So we walked out on
the court and he said who guarding me? And I said, well, hey,
you know, we both from Indiana. We're talking stuff. Me
and his mom had a close relationship in college. His

(01:30:24):
mom would write me like notes, was even writing me
notes like when I was in the pros, like you know,
good luck everything else. Right, So Larry's always called me cheesy, Right,
He's like, cheesy, who guard me? And I was like,
you know, I got Kelly, got lamb I got I
got Benson. He's like, you ain't got no brothers like you.

(01:30:51):
He's like, you disrespecting me. That's what he said. That's
exactly what he's saying, he said, hey man, you keep
putting no white dude ony better straight disrespect right. Don't
put no white dude though, So check this out. So
the next year we come back, I got somebody for
your ass, right, who you got Rob? He say? Okay,

(01:31:20):
he's a little better, he say, but don't never put
no white dude on me because that is disrespectful. Okay. Now,
I don't know how America's gonna feel about that, but
I think he said in his Sports Illustrated too, Yeah,
you can go get the quote I've heard. I heard
other people talk about lad Bird and I had conversations

(01:31:40):
with people like John Sally and he said the same thing.
He was black. Yeah, I was like, man, he walked
on the court, he was black straight, hey man. But
that's who he played with, you know, that's what I heard.
He played with the garbage So the garbage trust workers.
Um in um story is uh in French lique. You know,
he he grew up, you know him and Quinn Buckner, right,

(01:32:02):
you know, so he grew up. You know even though
French League. You know that's that's kind of Larry. You know,
he he ain't in all that, but he like you know,
did his own thing, but you better put somebody on
me that. And yeah, he ain't got no melon tonight.
He can't guard me. He can't guard me that you

(01:32:23):
disrespected my game. And even if he got some melon,
he go have a long night. But you know what though,
But you know what though, I know he walked out
on the court one time somebody said to get this
white boy, and he can't guard me, and Larry served him,
so I'm pretty sure he heard that before. And they
they used to talk so much trash man. So I

(01:32:44):
remember we were playing them, uh in the elimination game
in Joe Louis Arena, and you know, end of the game,
they up like eight to nine. They didn't won the series,
and you're gonna try to take that last shot, right
and and mchael said, I hope you make this last

(01:33:08):
shot because it's your last one of the scenes. While
I'm in the air the damn claim I missed it,
you know. But they just talked so much trash man.
And if you go back and you watch that the
Lakers Celtic Um documentary, you will see how much trash

(01:33:31):
they was talking to. I don't know if it was
worthy or magic was at the fire line and and
he missed the free though an mL car walked across
the fire line. Yeah, man, And and I remember, I

(01:33:52):
don't know if it was eighty four eighty five. So
I'm following this series back and forth. The the Lakers
win in Boston and they just come up in there
and they gainst the Boston like, you know, because Boston
was supposed to be the physical team. The Lakers was
supposed to be showtime. And you know, so Lakers came
up in them just you know, boom boom, pounding and

(01:34:12):
and you know, so Lair of Bird the next day,
you know, he called my team, you know, called him
sissies and everything else, you know, all the newspaper. Right. So,
now they come back. I think it was game five here,
and I mean it is. I think that's the game

(01:34:35):
that McHale Grand Rabbits threw them out of there, right. Yeah.
So so now I'm watching all this right and I'm
sitting baseline and they enter it in the Bird on
the on the right side of the court, Bird on
the baseline, and he dribbling down and Magic come to

(01:34:58):
double team and I'm like, no, no, no, he ain't
getting ready to shoot because now I'm studying, I'm like,
you know, now I know when Bird's gonna do a
step back. I'm I'm like, no, I'm my mind like,
don't come double, don't come double. And he came in
double and he kicked it out to Dennis Johnson and
Dennis Johnson knocked it down right from the foul line.

(01:35:19):
Boom game and Boston beat La here. But those type
of you know, rivalries going back and forth. I mean
the way they was fighting, and and I I felt
so sorry and bad for Bird because the way Michael
Cooper was guarding him. Man, I mean, dude, you you

(01:35:43):
can see Michael Cooper's fingernails all on Birds, like you know,
one time he poured his his shirt and all you
saw was Coops fingernails like and but man, they they
was going at it. And so now they go back
to Boston and Burr was real clever. So they have

(01:36:06):
an out of bounds play where balls balls here on
the right side, and he's coming up to set an
upscreen as he comes, you know, instead of it being
a pin down. Yeah, he said no, he comes up
to set an upscreen. But when he comes to set
an upscreen, now you're taking the ball out and that's

(01:36:29):
the corner. And as he said in the upscreen, the
defenders in front of him, and that dude flared to
the corner money ball and caught it. And when he
let it go, I was like, he ain't missing. It
was hit the back of the rim, but it was

(01:36:51):
it must the ball must have stayed in the air
for about five seconds, I mean, just spinning perfectly right
boom hit the back, bounced off and I was like, Hey,
God was with y'all to day late, because I mean
it was so clever of a play that that he
was able to up slide ball there. Ball came in

(01:37:13):
and he was able to just right in front of
the Laker bench. And if you go back and you look,
you'll see pat rity like everybody was playing, I mean
every the whole gym. Man. When he called the ball,
you know when some people catch the ball to right
the whole gym, and when he missed, it was like, yeah,

(01:37:34):
give me something quick on Robin. That's athlete I've ever seen,
probably in the NBA, not the highest jumping athlete, but
just the best athlete. Like I've never seen anybody who
he ran that fast and then quick jump like that.
So my first time playing with him, literally he gets

(01:37:57):
the rebound kick to me on an outlet pass, right,
And so when I get on an outlet, now I'm
dribbling into the middle of the floor to set the break.
As I'm dribbling into the middle of the floor, Now
this dude just threw it to me. He down there
underneath the back waving for and I'm like, how the

(01:38:18):
hell he gets So of course I kick it up,
but adjusting to his speed was the first thing I
had to do. And then I never saw anybody scientifically
break down rebounding the way Dennis Robin did. So our
first you know, our first couple of games, you know,
we be in the layup line, and then he stopped

(01:38:42):
and he just you know, standing under the rim, and
you know, used to be you lay it up and
then after you do your layups, then you start taking
a little short pull up shots, right, And so whenever
we started taking short pull up shots, he was stopped.
And so finally, you know, like, what you're doing, man,

(01:39:03):
get in line, like you know, likes He's like, no,
I'm I'm counting. So Dennis was a little strange. Anyway,
I'm like I ain't gonna even respond to that. Yeah,
like I'm counting, right, and and and and so my
mind everywhere right, and so finally, you know, now we

(01:39:27):
break up and he's still standing under basket, right, and
he's just looking at everybody ball and I'm like, what
you counting? Like I didn't, I didn't ask what you counting?
I said, what you're doing? He say, I'm counting. I'm
counting the spins on the ball. He said, when you
shoot your ball, spend like three times. Joe sometimes spend four.

(01:39:48):
This one spent. This dude was counting the rotations on
the ball on every player. He knew how long he
was gonna be in the air, how many times it rotated,
where it was gonna hit, where it would bounds. I
had never seen nobody breakdown rebounding like that. That was
kind of insane. That was that he was. He was

(01:40:10):
a genius man. Dennis Rodman was a flat out genius
when it came to basketball. I remember when he went
to Chicago and they said, well, are you gonna have
a hard time learning the triangle? He goes, it's a
triangle game. Five after the after the inbound turnover, yep

(01:40:33):
um talk about this series and Louison and you say
Bird wouldn't be all at if he was black. All
that little stuff you know that went on. But and
after that, y'all went on to win three finals. And
I want to talk about that too, because two, I mean,
excuse me, two it should have been three. Should have
been three. Yeah, and talk about that too. That'll be

(01:40:55):
the second question about do you believe that Pistons are
a dynasty. We're not a dynasty because technically we didn't
win three, right, So is that what que because there's
no written rules. So we had a debate with Freddie
Gibbs who said, you guys were three, that makes you
with the several runs, that makes you well. To me,

(01:41:18):
it's about your your dominance and your banners, right and
even and even though you even though you there's reasons
why you didn't get that third banner, right, we would
have been the first team in all era to win three.

(01:41:39):
Only two teams. If they say the eighties is the
greatest basketball era, right, only two teams went back to back.
It was Pistons in the Lakers as great a team
as the Celtics, where they didn't go back to back.
Only two teams went back to mack now um our.

(01:42:00):
So are we a dynasty? We didn't get the third
in Chicago was the first team to get three after
the step. So Chicago, you can say, okay, what they
did those three years and then came back and did
you know, So that's when dynasty stopped. Dynasty talk starts.

(01:42:21):
Lakers Celtics. You have to give them dynasty talk because
of their historical relevance. What Magic and Bird walked into,
they walked into ready made dynasties. Already they were already dynasties, right.
Celtics were already a dynasty. Lakers was already a dynasty.
What now what I would say, who's been the most

(01:42:47):
impactful team on the NBA, It's a Detroit Pistons. When
you look at our style of play, pick and roll basketball,
stretched five in lamb beer, small guards, you know, shooting
from the perimeter. We didn't have a post up player.

(01:43:10):
The way we influenced the game look ays like myself.
We weren't supposed to win championships. As a matter of fact,
when I came into the league. All the point guards,
Magic Johnson, Reggie Thiz, Paul Prescy, you know, everybody was
six sixty nine. The dudes won. We weren't supposed to win, right,

(01:43:31):
And as a matter of fact, I'm still the only
one that's won this way. Now, Steph Right has won
in Golden State, established the dynasty, but his playing style
is different than mine totally. I scored and assisted, he scores,
so two different ways of impacting. But so Golden State

(01:43:56):
what they did dynasty. But the most impactful and the
most fluential team that's played is a Detroit Pistons. You
played D two. I still hold a record on both ends.
And when you look at the playoff record in terms
of steals, I think one year I had sixty six

(01:44:20):
steals in a playoff run. Damn, I'm gonna say that again.
It's a thief. Yeah, I was a real thing. That's
a lot of defense right there. But you know, I
think we've influenced the game the most from an offensive
standpoint and also from a defensive standpoint. And then I
would also say from a guard playing standpoint, the way

(01:44:43):
guards played. Now every team they don't have a Magic
Johnson type guard. They don't have a Michael Jordan type guard.
They don't have a Dennis Johnson type guard. Every team
right now has an Isaiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Vinnie Johnson
type com. You may not like it, you may not

(01:45:05):
want to acknowledge it. It is true, but those are
the facts.

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Isiah Thomas - Part 1 | Ep 176 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Isiah Thomas - Part 1 | Ep 176 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball