Jermaine O'Neal | Ep 99 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball - All The Smoke

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to All the Smoke, a production of The Black
Effect and our Heart Radio in partnership with Showtime. Welcome

(00:21):
back to another edition All the Smoke. Our third and
final day in New York has been a good run. Jack.
Good to see you, my brother. You know that we
got a special guest. Uh, former teammate of Stack. Brother
runs the best Drive Nation program out there at Dallas,

(00:43):
got the best tournaments. Got a great little situation said
about there. Welcome to show, Jermaine O'Neil. Man. Let's get
right into it. Man, You've got something, A big project
you've been working on. Untold comes out of Netflix, The
Alice at the Palace. August Tip talked to us about
that and your involvement in it. Man. Honestly, it's been, uh,

(01:07):
it's been about really ten years. I've been looking to
try to get into this film thing. Obviously, Jack, he
was involved with this. So you know how I feel
about like the stories and the narratives of of things
that out there. Right. Um, So, I when I'd have
met with a bunch of different producers directors, didn't really
feel like people understood where I was trying to go

(01:29):
with it. The idea behind the film was not to
the abbot NBA fan, but just to the actual person,
regular everyday person that actually knew about the malice. Right.
It was a conclusion that was out there that we
never actually got an opportunity to talk about. So I
wanted to do a film that spoke to that, to
that person because, to be quite honest, Uh, seventeen years later,

(01:51):
just tired of talking about it while it has an anniversary.
So I felt like this Doctorum was able to give
us our platform. Uh, now you have people have to
be able to make a conclusion on actual facts actually,
and that somebody else sitting on on accouch somewhere, you know,
writing them some articles that they don't know because it's
been almost like urban legend, you know. I mean, that

(02:11):
was one of the biggest incidents in NBA history, and
it's almost has been like urban legends. Part what happened
were led up to it? What happened after all? This
kind of shift. So you guys finally got a chance
to tell that. What do you want the average fan
of the average person to take away from this stock Well,
you know, first, like I gotta say a big thank
you to Netflix for given an opportunity perfect time and

(02:35):
the way brothers um they understood uh, Florida director understood division. Right,
that was important. They were able to get it. Um.
But you know, this dock is is important to me
um in many ways because it allows people and when
people think about the brawl, they always you don't care

(02:55):
where I'm at a man, I'm a gonna scrap some
people talking about they don't know everything else we went on.
This went on for like ten years, bro, Like I
had a felony, the same charge you'll get for shooting
and stabbing somebody, you know what I'm saying. And it
was like a situation where to me, beyond even those things,
it allowed people to take shots at a culture, right,

(03:18):
take shots at our league, and still not be able
to have a conversational, real educated conversation about what actually
really happened. Right, And this is what this doc really
gives you people opportunity to kind of relate to and say, Okay, damn,
that was that was. It was much bigger than them
throwing hands. They just looked at us, some rich thugs
out there. They didn't take time to comprehend nothing, why

(03:41):
I went down, why we wasn't protected, how we was treated.
None of that matter, So I'm excited to be involved.
Uh And it's doc and I'm glad I was happening.
Jail called me because, like you said, I'm tired of
talking about it too, you know what I mean? And
you do you do more? And it's doctor here our side.
You see actual footage, you know what I mean. To
you can judge for yourself to see how we was

(04:01):
treated and how we wasn't protected, you know what I mean.
And and then a lot of things gonna come to light.
So I can't wait till I can't wait to the
World season August time. And my brothers are also executive
producer in it. So how was that night impact of
your career after that? Well? I know, but tell them,
you know, I know firsthand. Um, to me, wasn't even

(04:24):
about just the basketball. I remember, I remember, you know,
going getting back, getting re estated. A lot of people
don't even know I took the NBA the court in
one Yeah, tell us about that, you know. So I
feel always that that day, Yeah, we felt like we
had the right to do what we did right, And

(04:45):
so going going through that whole arbitration, if I didn't
if if I didn't have to go through the arbitration
to get to the federal court, out have been back
playing sooner. So I went through a situation where the
judge said, hey, you had the right to do what
you it and it was it was to me when
you talk about career and all this other stuff. That's

(05:06):
the part that that made me a little bit better
towards everything, because the NBA had an opportunity to write it,
to write it right. The Pacers had an opportunity to
write it. Understood bottom line, numbers matter the most, right.
They didn't know how to handle it um. So I
understood that part. But once we went to court and
got through that process, you would think that they would

(05:27):
have said, okay, we're good. But they didn't write I
come back. I get reinstated at the fifteen games. So
you got fifteen, you got thirty, got shortened, you had
thirty all of them. I'll tell you what mine didn't
give you do stuff. The same day ran did something
else crazy during the middle of the arbitration. Yeah, it

(05:48):
was crazy because again, if I don't have to go
through the whole process of arbitration, I would have been
back playing. So I get back I get reinstated and
I still give I still make the All Star team, right,
I'm I'm voting in as a starter and my wife
get to Houston. It ain't a picture for me to
be found you like that, Dade not working with me.

(06:13):
They're not working with me. And that was the first
time I understood when I when I'm telling y'all, no
picture nowhere, Like I'm a starter, right, So those are
the picture that you see first unless they see you
walking around, they wouldn't even know I'm looking through the books.
No picture, right, And so that was like the moment
where I really like really understood what that was, like

(06:33):
what the impact of that was, and um that to
me again, it wasn't personal for me. The thing that
bothered me the most is when people of quote unquote
substance that are talking about Jack me Ron, the NBA players, braids, tattoos,

(06:56):
music culture, culture that was at things for me bro right,
because now they are allowed to do. Bob Costs was
one got a lot of respect for Bob Costs. Watch
the dog, watch the thing that thug World was thrown
out there probably a thousand times, a thousand times. All
of a sudden, it's it's it's about you know, hip

(07:17):
hop music we listened to. It's about our corners, about
our tattoos, about the color of your skin. Not knowing
that day hockey, right, I remember going through the whole
arbitration process and the lawyers bringing up some hockey stuff,
celebrated get to beat the hell out of each other
on the regular basis, people routing that on right, they

(07:40):
ain't talking about the hairstyle. They ain't talking about the music.
They're listening to baseball same way. Right, you get to
get the rush, the mount getting through some hands, but
they ain't thugs. So to me, it became more about
a race thing, and and it put our league in
a position, and we all care about the league. It's
been special to was in the special to our families,

(08:01):
not only for us person but generationally right, And so
that was the thing that was was hurtful towards me.
And we had to have a muzzle because we still
got criminal that we're dealing with and got civil standing
right behind it. How long we was in court and
all that dragon back and forth. Man, people don't even

(08:21):
understand that, so you know, So to me, it wasn't
necessarily about the career because honestly, after that point I
understood what it was. Right. It was no debate, right.
You know, you have to be stupid death for blind
to understand not understand what was happening. Right, you know,
I knew that the league was really fucking with me

(08:44):
before and then afterwards, you know, had the opportunity people
don't know, the stack knows us, had opportunities that I I
don't even You might not even notice that opportunity to
step away from Brian and Jack in the whole projects
all to separate yourself and happen. Okay, And I say that, um,
the league. I took a call the day after. People

(09:08):
don't even notice, and they asked me, um to do
a couple of things. And what I did, what Jack
did was in straight protection of my teammates. Right. When
people talk about leadership, people talk about togetherness, people talk
about brotherhood, that is tested when your asses in uh
twenty ced arena and people at you right, and so

(09:32):
you know, to go back to the question, the career
thing wasn't necessarily the issue. Um, it was perception, because
I'm still dealing with that today. I was in Vegas
this past weekend and I might have nine people might
have asked me about I can't. I cannot step away
from it. I'm almost tired of talking about it, to

(09:53):
be honest, because kids are asking me that wasn't even born.
So you know, from a career standpoint, I still end
up played eighteen years. The thing that I'm mad about
the most, I didn't get an opportunity to I'm the
only one that actually didn't get the opportunity. With the
championship in the Hope pros said, and you have Reggie
up and Reggie yeah, but talked to that too, because Jack,
I want to get back to you and which you
went through and the ship you talked about. But in

(10:14):
the midst of all that's going on, you guys have
one of the best teams in the league that year.
We were the best team in the league when that happened.
Facts facts, There's no question. Um, but we wont We
had the best record of yere before and got beating
the conference finals. Body Truck. We knew going we hadn't already,
you know, the trader for Jack. We came back to camp,
everybody was in town early. We was like, we're about

(10:36):
to win this. We bout we bout the whoop and everybody.
And then when that happened, it like it wasn't a
situation like you knew right away after that day that
it was. It was done right. And I remember going
and talking to Donnie and Larry and them and say, hey,
look man, like let's just hold on winning. Heels everything right,

(10:58):
I mean, just you know, every things happen in professional
sports that year. The coach had some things going on
their team, they held it together like family would do,
like any any other family, and they didn't and it
just remember just you know, the city was broken, um,
the league was broken because they felt pressure from corporate

(11:21):
America about doing something and making change. His dress code
pops up right afterwards. You know, people looking at us,
you know, the same hugs and kiss as you get
walking into places you ain't getting no more because you know,
people feel like you. The reason and the thing that
I'm probably most disappointed about the most when we talk
about journalism, right, the lack of people, the lack of

(11:47):
professionalism that people had towards this process right, not doing
the work. Not doing it wasn't even about being writers,
about being first. What kind of story can I put
out there about this without actually not having any facts
behind it, Jack to what happened. So let me interview
you for a second. So when you said you got
thirty games and you had to do all because Ron

(12:08):
did something else during your arbitration, well, basically Jail went first,
and he basically laid the blueprint for us to all
possibly get our games reduced, right because Jail, Jail touched
on something that nobody thought of when he went up
to I remember this Vivilaine Jail saying, No, I hear
what everybody's saying, But Mica, sign is how my kids
gonna look at me after watching this on TV all
day and that total room down, like they initially like, wow,

(12:33):
we need we're not thinking about your families and like that.
And that's why Jail got his games reduced because he
brought a different side of that nobody was thinking about,
right Son, as if I'm sitting there and Jail was
killing it, he over there killing the Ron slides a
letter over to me men arbitration, and everybody seen him
do it. You remember this well, and everybody likes pay attention, bro,

(12:53):
And I don't even want to take it, you know
what I'm saying, because like everybody looking at us now,
and the letter said, did you really hint the guy
I'm like, you asked me that's doing the middle arborit
trais when we're trying to get our games re dudes
and and and then to my when he sleep it over. Man,
it was loud and everybody looked, you know what I'm saying,
something like, damn not know, we ain't gonna get our
games with dudes, and we didn't. I get update, you know,

(13:15):
you know, I basically said, I just said the exact
thing Jamas said. But I was like, you know, that's
my teammker. You know what I'm saying, We're family. I'm
with him one with my I'm with my own family
doing the course of the year. So I just I
just did what a teammate should do. You know what
I'm saying. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't really elaborate
on nothing else and they and they didn't reduce my games.
But we still made the playoffs, still made it out
the first round. Then we did we get to the

(13:35):
second round. Still after all that was still made into
the second round. So that's how I know that team
is good, you know what I'm saying. But if ron
would have been more locked in if at the arbitration
and he came dressed the path man. He had on
some tux sedo pants with a whole another different color
suit jacket with some with some basketball like he like,
he did not take it serious at all. He did
not take it serious at all. Bro And and that's

(13:58):
a big reason why I made him to get out,
because he was talking doing the harbor traction and all
kindstuff that was unnecessary. But I would say this though,
right like, it's like the human element that was that
was lost in this entire process, right. And I remember
saying this on the stands when the prosecutor was it
was a question to me, I said, He asked, what
you do this again? I said, in the same position, absolutely,

(14:22):
I said, would you go and knock on my door
and tell my wife and kids that the dad that
their dad and and and her husband is dead if
one of those chairs hit me in my head? I said,
So you have to ask yourself, what would you do
in a situation like that where it is no police
officers in there, and any bar he thought beer and

(14:44):
somebody face that's the saut that's a st anywhere else.
But when it comes to dealing with a million dollar
black athletes, it's thugs going into the stands. And I
saw two on your breakfast club in and be recently
Jack that if you guys didn't react to the beer
being thrown, the fan would just probably got to throw
the beer. That's basically what it was. And you right, man,
no one would have happened to him. It's just been
a panther on the beard. They would have highlighted it,

(15:04):
but they wouldn't kicked him out, you know, suspended for
coming to games and nothing like that. J. You don't
really you're not really out in the media. You don't
really speak much. But it was known kind of around
the league that you don't have to get into super detail.
But you've got a hard time kind of forgiving um

(15:26):
the whole process. And there was a rift between you
and Ron for a while and it finally came you know,
you guys just you know, you got cool a little
while ago. But how hard was that, Like I said,
just the overall understanding of the process and then kind
of the internal riff with you too. Well think if
you know me, like you know, I'm about the right thing, right,
Um I am? I am very intense in many ways.

(15:49):
I am a zero to ten guy, But um, I
like to talk things through and and Ron what I what?
I Here's what I wish I would have knew back
then that I know now. It's his struggles, right. Mental
health is the real thing in our in our world,
and we all deal with things a little bit differently. Um.
He he was dealing with it in a way that

(16:12):
I didn't understand. But it's not to cut you off,
but we're just starting to talk about mental health now
and thinking about this is seventeen years ago, so this
is not even registering with us really as anybody really
registering with us. So go ahead. And I took it
as as disrespect I mean, Jack was in a lot.
I just took it as he was being disrespectful to
all of our time and effort, right, and the pacers

(16:34):
was doing the best job. But they could I think
at the time, together to hold it together, because um,
he would. We did just didn't know. I mean, he
would just not show up the stuff, right. I mean
people don't realize too, um that it really for us.
It started for me and him. It started the year
before in the conference finals, right where at the game

(16:56):
that Redgie got blocked. Um, we didn't see him. Remember,
you know, when you go from your home to the
way game is like two games in between. We didn't
see him until shoot around two days later. Right, And
so that was kind of a real moment where I
would just I was just I was past the point

(17:17):
of friendliness, right. I wanted to scrap like all the time,
but I was uneducated, right. I wish I was able
to be a better teammate to him versus being aggressive
towards him, being more of a brother tour right, because
again I didn't know um. And so I had an opportunity,

(17:37):
um to uh sit down with him, you know, shout
out to the big three. It was the first time
I actually had lunch with him since the time that
long How long ago was this? That was two years ago?
And me and him just set and had lunch together
and we kind of talked things through. UM, and we're
just in a better place. The one thing that has
keeps getting lost in his dog that he did two

(18:00):
years ago. Uh, and even this doc, I'm like, damn,
why the hell you know, things I'm saying about him
isn't getting put into the dock. It seemed like they
want to keep the Yeah, that that drift between and him.
I'm super proud of where he is today. It takes
a lot for a man to talk openly about his
failures and his struggles and stuff like that. You know,
we're all proful, you know men, And to hear him

(18:23):
say that, um means a lot. And I'm I'm I'm
proud of him from that perspective, but it's also big
of you. You know, they're kind of taking you know,
you're taking a step back. It's been seventeen years removed,
but trying to see, even though you were part of
to see where you could have been better at two
And I know Jack has done this before too, to
just to kind of see like, damn, you know I
could have did this better to help maybe it would

(18:44):
have changed this. And most people just like you know,
funking it's his problem, he should have did this, But
you know, to also you point the finger at yourself
feeling like where you could have did better as a
person to try to hopefully solve. So that's growth, and
you know, obviously you know with us being a lot older,
but that's I feel a different type of way man,
because the same counselor. They had him saying they act
they asked me to see and I wasn't doing those things.

(19:05):
Who at the time, I was really insensitive to what
he was going through, you know what I'm saying, because
we're seeing the same lady. They got us talking to
the same lady. But I ain't doing the dumb ship
you're doing, you know what I'm saying. They called him
me crazy too, but I ain't doing the dumb ship
he was he was doing, So I was kind of
incensive to it too. Can we talk to the same lady?
And really I feel like I was wasting my time
talking to him, you know what I'm saying. But they
felt like men wrong in the same boat or something.

(19:27):
So I'm sitting there talking to him later, and you know,
after we talked to he gonna do something else crazy.
I'm like, well, look man, I don't I don't know
what's going on, you know what I'm saying. So I
was I was kind of the same way. I was
insensitive too. So before we leave this, I just want
to say, both of them dudes are luckiest fun that
both of you guys didn't have solid footing. It's all
I'm trying. Yes, yes, both of you guys slipped. Luckily,

(19:48):
by the grace of God. God, let y'all slip a
little bit because y'all with the motherfucker Daffy Duck. Both
of them dudes like knocked their beak to the back.
I gotta I got a good one off with you
right about the planet. Yeah, I wouldn't tell both, especially him.
Could you see Jake that slipped stopping from getting murdered.
But y'all don't realize. So what you do not see

(20:10):
is so I had just it was a guy I
don't know if it was an usher whatever that grabbed
me around my neck and he choked the usher right,
And so at that point, I'm in straight reaction mode,
like it's all the stuff that was on the table
that nobody chose to use, like the league or nobody
chose to use it. They just chose to use the
slide and punch, right, So I boom put him on

(20:34):
the table, right. I turned to my left. I see
Anthony Johnson on the floor. I never even sold that
her dad, dude get into it one. I see Anthony
Johns on the super broken hand and I just sprint
over there. Because he's standing over him. Yeah, he's standing
over him. So at that point I was like, look,
I'm gonna clean up everything, right, anything that comes near,

(20:56):
I'm cleaning it up big. This twenty something jail, he's
already big at the house, right down these arms. At
twenty something, I remember jail. The strong motherfuck boy thing.
I think the craziest part about it bro this whole
process of the craziness. They come in, they try to

(21:17):
pepper spay us, the players, trying to take us to jail,
and we got hit with every beverage at the concession
that ever had in the arena about it there, you know,
oddly enough, I mean, this happened seventeen years ago, but
this ship kind of reared its head again in the
NBA this season with spitting on people and throwing bottle
bottles at people. To be and Stephen Jackson because to me,

(21:41):
and again, like I think fans feel like they're they
can comment like they're going to the zoo, and you
can poke it the like look at this as animals,
And I can say and do and throw anything I
want because I paid good money for this ticket. And
that's the furthest thing from the truth, and I'm surprised
what happened with you guys doesn't have more often because
fans are still completely out of hand. And it's crazy

(22:02):
to me because it always seems like the league is
trying to protect the fans and doesn't really give a
funk about what's going on with the players. You know,
it's interesting that you know, I'm sure we all about
like going into opposing arena. Um it's special. Stop, I
love it, right, yes, special being in that environment and
people yelling and screaming. It's a balance though, right, Always
tell people you treat me to what you treat me.

(22:24):
If if you stand in front of base things because
you spin on me, I don't care where we at.
You don't care in game out, game church like whatever
it is, like, it's gonna, it's gonna happen. So now
that you want, you want the interaction amongst players and fans.

(22:44):
You don't fans. You do not own the players because
you pay for your ticket. That does not mean you
own the players, right, And I think once they get
that balance back, understand that we humans and we we
have families and all that other stuff, then I fall
into place where hopefully the NBA get that cleaned up
in other leadues because I really feel like fans are
out of hand and sometimes the fan needs to ship
the ship knocked out under make him realize. You remember

(23:07):
after that, I got traded to go to State and
we planed a utah. They got a life size cut
out of me in the jail uniforms, the under the basket.
The NBA didn't say nothing, then say moving than nothing.
It's right there and camera view, bro. Just because of that,
you know what I'm saying with them corners nigga, this nigger, nigger.
This It was crazy. It was nuts. But anyway, moving on,

(23:28):
check out check the doc Man August time Netflix. Yeah,
jail Mann's opportunity to tell the full story unseen for it.
Don't miss it. But the rumors asleep looking forward to it. Yeah,
moving forward, Uh seven one agency, U and T Max
started talk to us how that got started? Man? It

(23:49):
really honestly, man, Uh, they're trying to figure out what
to do with all of damn money. They still got boys,
Let's do something man got damn Yeah, for real with
it really and really you know you notice right, you know,
it's it's a situation where in you sports man, there's
a lot of falsehoods, right, and these kids opportunities dwindling

(24:11):
based off bad information. I always tell my parents and
my organizations that, look, you know, would you allow a
career law and care service got to do your accounting? Hm?
Not nobody do that ship like that, right, So why
are you bound people to hand to your kids and
give you this information that, by the way, it don't
make no sense. It may not suited to give in
the first place, exactly, And to me and Matt was

(24:34):
actually um talking about it. And really, to be honest,
jacket happened that right after George Floyd because we were
talking because you heard about a lot about systemic oppression
right in our in our areas, right, And what that
to us, what that means is information and tools, right,
the lack of information and tools. And I remember going
into my wife donated some money to um a school

(24:58):
in South Dallas and and this was like in nineteen
they didn't have an operating computer in the entire school.
Team bro. And so we said, me and Matt was
talking one day he caught me at the right time.
I was. I had just got off a call with
another agency that I was trying to spark a deal
with and I was telling what I was gonna do

(25:20):
some man, I'm in I we need to do this.
And that's how it really happened. Right. We want to
be leaders in the space and and and because we've
been through it, right, we understand it the highest level,
at the highest level, and not only the good part
about it, but also the bad parts about it. Right,
like the struggle, right, what that is, and the struggle
is what makes us who we are. And so you
know the idea of of men Matt getting together working

(25:43):
on Mike vic now to uh, well Mike get to
get to get the contract back in brothers and we
get football side, that would be dope. Yeah, that'll be
really dopey. Have you got So is it officially? Is
it started yet or you guys still in the process
of So it's official now? It was official. Now. We
went through almost a three month process of negotiations with

(26:05):
a bunch of different agencies. But we realized that they
basically wanted us to work for him and do the
same work, so we might as well funded ourselves and
owning ourselves, um and put our own DNA and I
bring old blood into it. So we're super excited about it.
Man um um. You know it's a special air right
now with n I L stuff going on. Shout out
to you know whoever had hands in on that. Now

(26:28):
these kids can make some money off their likeness. Not
just the schools. I wanted to ask. I mean, also,
you have your beautiful facility out there in Dallas. You
throw the End of the Summer and me throw a
handful of tournaments. But you have the End of the
Summer tournament that's coming up in a couple of weeks
that we'll be at for the second time. But how
did that come about too? Because you have a beautiful facility,
I know, you know, rest in peace. Kobe, he was

(26:49):
doing the mamba stuff out here and he started to
kind of capitalize on that, and I went to Dallas.
I'm just like, oh, ship, jail, ship is incredible. Have
you been to this ship out there? No? But I
I was. I was when he first bought the land,
like he was. I was talking to him going all
that time. He had so many pitches. Talk to us
how that went. Because I know that the city helped
you do it, correct, Yeah, help help helped support it.

(27:11):
But talk to us how that process went because I
think it's beautiful. I mean, you have a U basketball
your daughters, and you have to have volleyball. You have
kind of just a whole year round facility. That's absolutely beautiful. Yeah,
shout out Asia, She's she's been, she's my daughter. Is
actually the reason why the facility happened. We moved to Texas,
uh seven years ago, eight years ago something like that.

(27:33):
Maybe my wife probably nine years ago. But um, long
story short, Um, we had to take her to different
places to get all the services, and only services I
knew was out of one building as a pro right,
So that was the idea of building it. Obviously Dallas
has a ton of different facilities, you know, but none
of them was built like that. Still going to stop
shot right, one stop shot. Um. It was one of

(27:55):
the hardest things I've ever did in my life. Bro
to be honest. Um, you know, so times, you know,
society reminds you, um on what's going on. The builder
that built that facility had just built another one. Literally
walked off that site to my site to start building.
And it was two owners in the previous facility. That
one was did hotels, one day restaurants, um and so

(28:19):
he brought a banking company and we brought to banking
institutions with him, and they funded it. When they came
to me like I'm career sports, got right, prime, real estate,
balance sheet, everything, I couldn't get a loan. Really, I
end up building like they went through the whole dog

(28:41):
and ponies. And this is why I knew this was
God's will and God's plan, because other doors kept opening,
and so I ended up building that facility myself cash right,
So FOURT team nobody never builds you know you know
you too, that's yeah, And it was one of those things,
is bro wave. Just I knew it was God's will

(29:01):
because now I was leading into other things rather seven
one or whethers. You know, we're doing filming about to
start telling stories and in the UTH sports space too.
So UM, ultimately it's a legacy project for me. Um.
We had guys like Kay Cunningham is out of my program,
um r J Hampton who's drafted last year, UM, Terris Maxie,

(29:22):
Jamia's Ramsey Drew Timmy at Gonzaga. UM tell me, yeah,
we have a ton of ton of players out of there,
Sam Williams and um. So it's really one of those
things where I want to look back, um at the
impact that we've had, not only on the surface, but
away from the service because we take kids out to
the communities, bringing truckloads of food, donate money to schools,

(29:44):
you know, kind of the whole thing. And we're gonna
do these and other places back in my hometown, working
to deal with in Columbia, South Carolina, we're gonna build
one and also one uh in Buffalo. So looking at
you know, that's the space I want to be in,
very passionate about it. Give some of these kids an opportunity,
um that I had. Well, it's just the ship we

(30:05):
wish we had when we were younger, you know. I
mean we're playing outside or playing in these dusty gyms,
and I mean you have a stead of our facility.
Like you said, it's a one stop shop with basketball, volleyball.
You got the soccer field in the back, you got
the weight room, you got the training, you got everything.
So it's a beautiful thing. I just don't give us
no fucking eight AI end games, bro coming all the
way from don't give us that motherfucking We're gonna be
all right. I got you, bro, Hey talked to us

(30:26):
about your upbringing, Um, South Carolina? What was like when
did you find basketball family dynamic? You know, I think
we all have, you know, different stories when it comes
to our upbringing. Um, South Carolina's Columbia in particular. Um,
it took a community to raise me right. Didn't know
my father right until I was thirty. Um, you know

(30:48):
my high school coast George Glenn shout out to him,
Old Claire High School, entire community out of metro. Um,
the city. I really took the time with me, remember, Um,
you know, I was, I was, I was, I was.
The streets is all we know is in our inner
city areas, right, and that is those are the leaders

(31:08):
for us in many ways. And sometimes the O G
s uh they do it right, sometimes they do it wrong.
Mind did it right right? When they started seeing me
progressed as an athlete, they started pushing me to the side, like, right,
you can't you can't be out it, but you need
to go over here. Remember at the games that you know,
they said, if you go and you and you you
you hit your grades in school and you hit these

(31:29):
numbers on the court, we're gonna we're gonna set you up.
It's a popular maximum trunks. They got polos, Jordan's and everything,
and they're waiting on me right and and it kept
me motivated to do the right thing right because I
know I felt the love and support. Um. And it
definitely took a community to raise me. My mother did
a phenomenal job. But it's just certain things that a

(31:50):
mother can't do much right by herself. Um. And so
you know, the city has been just just been phenomenal
to me. Man. And Um, you know, I gotta say
this to um. Some of my old gs, Bernard Pig,
Richard Um, all those guys, Junior Lor poo a, raoms,

(32:10):
guys that really had hands in on my development. Still,
when did you find the game of basketball? Man? I
got I must have. I don't know about you. I
didn't really start playing it to my freshman year. I
was like six to you know, my freshman year I
went from like six to to six eleven and three months. Damn,
what were the knees feeling like I had to be braced?

(32:33):
Four is Gum saying, yeah, real story, get slaughter. All
that kicking the worst, wasn't it? At one time, man,
I was playing football and then I grew to six,
six ten, six eleven, and my my junior varsity coaches
like brot, listen, You're don't need to make a career change.

(32:53):
And I was like okay, and uh shout out to
Louis dreer Um, who was really the architect. Remember having
to take dance classes one two out every practice holding
his hand right one to one to Um. He really
taught me a lot, and the coach, George Glynn really
kind of put it over the top with Um becoming

(33:15):
a true father figure that had rules and regulations to
how we do that, do the ship every day. I
grew six inches from freshman year of the tank grave
y'all six ft. Going into my abhomore year, I walked
in at six six and it was similar, but this
was trials. I was out there running routes for football

(33:36):
season ain't started yet and I'm trying to try out
and go play football as a receiver. And during probably
my second round, I seen my coach and my mom
and my uncle walking towards the field. You know, my
mind back then, I'm thinking somebody got killed in my family,
something bad that happened. They are take the cleats off,
all that ship off, you ain't doing that. You got
you you don't see what you're going to basketball, but

(33:57):
we see it. I'm like, man, I can do both.
I'm diance hat as I can do both. Now I
come to your ass out. So that was similar to me.
They saw something to me that out of saying myself
at that time, he was probably scared to get hit anyway, Huh.
He would have been scared to get hit, and I was,
I was the cleanest out there, and I think they
didn't like that. You know, I was gonna be clean, fresh, clean,
you know what I'm saying. Do yeah, you know, don'pe
boing back then every time? Who did you mind your game? After?

(34:23):
And I don't know, man, I'm you know, honestly, um
Kim Elijah was probably my favorite the dream I remember first.
I remember my first first time checking him. Brad was
I was trying to hold on for dear life right
though he was, he was the strongest, most agile. I'm
not even sure why when people talk about greatest centers ever,

(34:43):
his name does not pop up. He could arguably beating
number one, arguably be number one on both sides of
the court. He dominated right the all time leading shot
blocker in the business. Footwork was impeccable. I know why
because he was Muslim us and you're gonna hear about
it and the doctor's coming out about him. Um. They

(35:05):
told him that he had a conversation with with David
Stern and if you notice his name wasn't do up Black.
We don't talk like. We don't hear much now, even
after he won the championships, and they don't talk about
it when they talk about the Hall of Fame players
because he had a riff with David Stern about David
Stern told me, if he publicized that as much as
he did, that he wouldn't get the look that he
was supposed to get it. And that's why you never

(35:25):
hear about it. It's crazy. He used to get busy.
He's the fast all the time. He won two championships faster,
that's crazy. Huh. What what stands out to you? Obviously
you get a late start, but once you get going,
you know this is what you're supposed to be doing. What? What? What?
What do you remember the most about your high school
playing days? He was the biggest person in our class

(35:49):
and thought he was on steroids or some ship. Tim
like I remember saying Leicester earl. I remember seeing those
they weren't bigger than you not. I don't know, but
I was. I was stilling thought. But but I remember

(36:10):
I remember seeing Tim Thomas and I was like because
I heard a lot about him, and I was like, damn,
this my like to thirty and guards playing like a
guarden garden. But you wouldn't understand like back then we
didn't know about the motherfucker too. We actually saw them
face to face like you would hear or you might
be able to read about them in a little magazine,
but I wasn't reading, Like you didn't know about who

(36:30):
you was going up against until he was warming up
or seeing him at the tournament. Yeah. We actually the
first time I sold him, um was that a B
C D. And it was like I was like, damn,
he he is advertised, he can go. And that was
I think my real first AU experience was probably going
to Nike All America. I wasn't necessary games. It was

(36:52):
the camps where I remember Gelnnie McCoy was there. Um
it was Steph Garnett and I was like, holy just
the class before us. That was like damn, Like I
ain't never Bro. I'd never been outside of my city
at that point, so it's in Chicago. I'm like, damn, bro,
I need to I need to go get my ship

(37:12):
together like these boys can play. That was like the
first time I knew that I had to put in
some work because there was some real dogs, like were
we from you know, we're killing in our neighborhoods. Then
that's how measurements stick, right, right? Did you get outside
of your neighborhood and you realize that you damn you,
you really can't compete now unless you go put in
some work. And so seeing those boys really inspired me.

(37:33):
Man And and that was kind of like the kicker
for me when it came to a U. Who so
who who is? I mean, obviously I know your draft class,
but who are some of that the top cats? And
during AU during that run for you, could you guys
are the same year right fails, Cold Cold Baby, Shanne
Cotton Shake Cotton, Baron, Davis, Baron Dame was how that too,

(37:55):
but he was younger than us. Um Corey Benjamin for
Benjamin Why, I went for Walton Richard Richard Hamilton's head colder,
but Ronnie at the top was him Ronnie Fields, Kobe
and Tim Toomer maybe too. My baby is at the top.
Felipe Lopez older, he was the show, older than everybody

(38:22):
now he was he was ninety five, if I'm not mistaken.
So what went into your decision, um to let you
know you were ready to make the job, skip college
and make that job to the pro Honestly, I didn't.
I didn't know. I knew I wasn't physically ready. I
went to jail um my my senior year on a

(38:45):
statutory rate um charge um possible charge at the time,
I didn't know, which I think is important, especially for
the youth to understand this is that every state has
a legal age limit to have consensual consensual sex. Right now,
this girl I had been with for two years, my girlfriend, girl,

(39:07):
it's my girl girl right she was chillied on the
team and everything. I had not met her, pops crazy
thinking two years, I met mom, been over the house,
um sisters everything known. Story short. He comes home, I'm
over at the house, didn't catch us doing anything, just
caught me in the room. He hits her. I hit him. Uh,

(39:28):
stayed with the girl to the police game. He foul
um a charge of me and it became one of
those situations where we was trying to blow that ship up,
especially be in the South Carolina. And if you got
to know the history, like the Confederate flag was just
recently taken off the stay house, right, that was a
real thing. Um, where you grew up not understanding that

(39:50):
you can even date outside of your race, Like I
didn't even know I could. It was even cool until
ninety s when I got drafted to do so. Right.
And so if you living you're living in that ronment,
you're going through a situation where now, um, at the time,
I was number one player in the country, rights, I'm
in I'm in jail, and they're talking about giving me
ten years, right, and so you know, I go through

(40:11):
that whole process get reinstated. I finally get reinstated, um,
hyper extend. I need the first game back with all Patino,
NBA scouts, everything, um, and the Patino had a meeting
with us, me and my mom in my house. He said, look,
we love to have you, we canna be good with
you without you, but you probably go bro. Where was

(40:33):
he at at that time, Kentucky though, right, And so
that was like the moment where I knew, he said, Look,
you know, you know, I know you're probably gonna listed
between tenth and seventeen. You're never gonna fall beyond seventeen.
At that point, I was so worn out, bro, And
I've seen opportunities starting to drift a little bit. Um
and you know, the whole idea of going to jail
and being heard and now people starting to question, you know,

(40:55):
should I even be a pro? Said let me go,
Let me go and make this money. I knew that
my determination and my mindset was built for physically. I
knew I wasn't I was only like two and a
seventeen pounds or something like that. Um, But that was
that was that was a decided factor. To be honest.
I got to ask you one question, though, I shouldn't
want a VP, right McDonald's. I just wanted all the

(41:20):
top players, you know, I just want to have from
on top. You know, I started five. I think I
think we had one of the best starting five Evan
McDonald's game history, Me and you, cold, Tim and Tim Thomas.
We couldn't added real Hampton, power and better, but Holloway
with me and you, she Holloway, Kobe and Tim Thomas.
But you remember they didn't start me because remember I
was in the hospital the whole week, right right, what's

(41:42):
what's the what's the big fella? Jason Carya not went
to North Carolina Hathaway, Russian by Sale after them all. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
he had to play the game to play the game. Yeah, yeah,
it was the dope. It's projected dope start. I didn't

(42:02):
start because I didn't make any thing with the one
practice and like the altitudo was too much. Yeah. Now,
obviously did you briefly dabbled if you thought about college,
who were something that the schools you thought about it was?
It was dound to UM, Kentucky, Maryland, Maryland was closely used.

(42:22):
Joe Smith. He was recruiting me to go to Maryland,
and that was one of my favorite players in college.
Shut up. He was a mom'star Um South Carolina where
I'm from. Clemson obviously been in South Carolina in Ohio state, UM.
But if I don't went to school, it would have
been to Kentucky because Kentucky had the pedigree to win
a national championships and putting players in the pros. He

(42:45):
decided to make the jump. You the seventeen pick for
the Portland Trail players. How come you didn't go to
the draft? Honestly, man, Um, you know back then when
you made the decision to go pro, you forfeited your
cole eligibility completely. So if I don't get drafted, then
I gotta go find a job, right. And so the

(43:06):
nervousness coming off all the stuff that I went through
my senior year, I was just like, bro, I need
to be I need to be home. I need to
be around people that that no mean that understand me,
you have that support me. And so I just decided
to stay and get a ballroom. Um. Shout out to
r and tell him who stood who stood beside me

(43:27):
the entire time? Who kept me calm? I knew back
then as a seventeen year I wasn't the easiest person
to keep calm, you know back then, But he became
like a pop to me. Man, So Um, you know
he understand how much he means to me and in
my entire career. I mean talking about that draft, that's
one of arguably the best draft classes, on one of

(43:48):
them ever. Uh. Kobe iverson Ray Island, stuff on mar Burt,
Steve Nash, Marcus can be uh Antoine Walker, M sharif
A do rahim yourself. Um, so that experience from high school,
skipping college, jumping to the pros but then back and

(44:08):
then people don't understand like there was real o g
s and real grown men back in the league back
in the day, like the real Vets. So what was
your experience like transitioning? Like you said, you may not
have been ready physically, you made the jump, you made it.
What was it like early on in your career because
you didn't get a chance to really play early on
and experience though? Yeah, man, uh, the late great Cliff

(44:29):
Robinson to rest in peace. Gary Trent, I mean Gary
Trent was the first one. He came and got me
from the airport. Um taught me a lot of things.
Um she obviously Sabonis and the and the team's kind
of change, you know year over year, Debatlers Strom, Scottie Pippen,
I mean just kept going. Um. I was able to
take a lot of different ingredients from a lot of

(44:51):
a lot of players with this Kenny Anderson, dam Sodermar Gray, Anthony,
Brian Grant, Um bondsy Wells and they see all Man
j R. Roder. Um, it just kept going um on
and on, and it was really honestly for me, it
was the best place for me because it was a
one sports town city. But I didn't have the pressure

(45:14):
of a big city, right. They grew me as if
as if it was college, one on one, right, and
so every year I was able to kind of grow
and mature a little bit more. I remember Rick carl
I remember him coming to my house. People don't know
about this, but I was so salty because Gardnett and
Cole was getting an opportunity and I wasn't. And back

(45:35):
then that was when high school to the pros just started.
So the micro scope was like, you know, bearing down
on me. And you know people are say, oh, well
he's a bus you know, he couldn't not knowing that
I just wasn't getting the opportunity. And remember Rick carl
Out coming to my house and I wouldn't because I
stopped going to the games. This is your first year.
So I was like, you know what, I ain't playing,

(45:56):
I ain't coming, ain't coming. So I remember talking to
him out here coming house. I put the chain on
the door and talked to him through this. He was
assistant coach. Carlson was the head coach. Um, But he
was the one that kind of walked me through this thing, man,
and became the guy that was just assigned to me
to make sure that I, you know, that I made
the right moves and man, and when I look back

(46:17):
at this now, you know, it wasn't the transition wasn't
as tough physically as it was mentally. Absolutely, what was it?
What was the turning point? When did you start getting
some time on the court with season? Was that for you? Man?
I went for I went four years of the roller
coaster up and down, But when I knew my third
year probably was when I knew because I started out

(46:38):
playing guys that were playing in front of me like
I was piste off all the time because at the
time Mike Dunleavy was making things incredibly hard for me. Right,
you know, I'm always there before there after you know,
I ain't played in the first two quarters. Put me
in the game in the third quarter for two minutes,
you know, yeah, right, and so um that just pissed

(46:59):
me off and I just could to work harder. I
knew planning against sheet in them every single day in practice.
That's back then when we had to practice too but
it was the real. It was the real, you know.
It wasn't no rest days, wasn't none of that stuff.
It was like he was practicing when you wasn't playing.
And it prepared me right away. And I knew, you know,
as going into my fourth year um which is old

(47:20):
Banana and the tail Pipe, I was a free agent
and decided to not to take a starting role either
with Orlando or Chicago and went back to Portland's. We
had just lost in the conference finals against the Lakers.
I said, well, we should we got a chance to
win it all. I'm gonna go back and then contribute
and it just didn't work out. That work out. Talk

(47:42):
to us about that experience with the Lakers of two
thousand Lakers come down the game seven? What was that series? Like? Man, listen,
I probably cried maybe twenty times in my life. Bro
had some big shots for this is your first real
taste of the NBA playoffs, right, so you made the
playoffs every year, but we're in the conference for so

(48:03):
that was the That was the I went back for
that reason and we were up fifth I think fifteen,
and like the stable center emptying out me and Bonds
on the bench, talking about when we're about to do
with you know, without with our bonus are NBA Finals
bonus checks and all this stuff, and then I think

(48:24):
Brian Shaw banked in fucking three and it was started
r started to run Bro And it was just to me,
it was just mismanagement of the team. Right, you play
these you play the guys through the process of this run,
and they make this run to you sub them right

(48:44):
with guys that ain't been playing right. And so it's
just one of those things where, um, A lot of
things went into us losing that game, but that was
the one that I was. I was remember sitting on
the bench. I told Bonds, I said, brother, this is it.
I ain't coming back, tears in my eyes, everything said.
But I'm going somewhere else, I said, because you know
this time is up. But that was the one that
really hurt us because that team was probably on paper,

(49:06):
the most talented team in the league. Bright We had
Steve Smith, Scottie Pippen, Brian Grant, she Wallace, a bonus
BONDSI you me, uh, Damon Sodemer Uh he's super DP.
It's no way in here. We shouldn't won the championship.
One of the best teams never to win it. What

(49:28):
was that fourth quarter? Like the one that got away
from the Avacota, Bro, one of the twenty times that
I've cried in my life, I tell you, I remember.
I remember sitting on the bench literally tears coming out
of my eyes because you put so much into it, Um,
And as a young player, you know you I knew
that these opportunities don't come around. You know, I'm just

(49:51):
hearing all the O g s talk about it and
have an opportunity to to ship to play in the
NBA finals, Bro, like you grew up watching that, the Jordan's,
the you know, the Magics, the Isaiah Thomas says, the
lad Birds, And it was just it was it was
a hard pill to swallow. But the good part about
it helped me understand what it took to be a

(50:13):
pro and to have the opportunity to get there. I mean,
looking back on it now, how dynamic were Kobe and
Shock And that was good dal On on the two
shots to hit at the answer, that was great defense
to He's still draining, man, you know obviously Kobe, you know,
I mean, you know, you'll know how we feel about him. Um,
He's one of the greatest. I think, to me, he's

(50:34):
more closer to Mic than anybody everybody's and he is
he is he was as a he had a dog
mentality that I was about winning, winning, winning, right, Shock.
People don't realize how big Shock is, Bro. I mean

(50:55):
like it's like he was playing with like a little
tips ball all the time in his hand because he
was so big. But he he just changed the game, Bro,
And many times the league didn't know how to officiate
shot right. I mean, he was just that, he was
that agile he was. I don't know if we ever
see a specimen of a player like that ever again

(51:15):
a lot, because the game has changed so much and
he's incredible. Summer of two thousand, You're traded to Indiana
for Dale Davis kind of understanding that the business side
of it, what was that like for you? And I
remember I remember going into uh the Champs downtown and
I'm talking about these damn people were bad because they

(51:37):
just came out from finals appearance and they traded you know, Dale,
which is a fan favorite, for basically an unknown And
so I was challenging for me to hear people talk
about that in a in a bitter way, right um,
and obviously how people felt about Reggie and him winning
the championship, it was it was difficult, But Reggie mille

(51:59):
Is is one of my favorite teammates of all time
because he is he's he's a winner, right, He's a
winner in every aspect of the word. And he could
have easily debt at that trade easily trade for him,
trade me, He's like nah, bringing the young boy. I
remember remember having the conversation. He said, I'm gonna let

(52:21):
you be whatever you want to be as long as
you worked for He did the same for me. Reggie
did the same for me. Reggie is unbelievable, bro. He
meant so much too to me in my career. And
that's why that that brawl situation, I probably wanted to
win it more for him than it was for myself.
Right well, I think I think we all did because,

(52:42):
like it, just a touch on what he said. They
brought me in the next year, the year Reggie was retiring,
and Reggie was basically stamping me as the person to
fill in when he needs you know what I'm saying.
So that year was especial for all of us, for Reggie,
you know what, I mean, because we knew we had
the team, you know what I mean, and to not
do it wasn't It was a letdown. Even though we
came back and still far in the playoffs. It was

(53:02):
let down for all of us because we wanted to
do it so bad. For Reggie, I mean, it was
crazy too that Reggie probably that situation was so bad
that it forced him to retire. Reggie had probably two
more years and really just a lot on that mental side.
So you're coming into Antiana, are you you get the
starting role or how does that? How does that work out?

(53:24):
I came in right away, started one, most improved right away.
I was fully prepared by all the work. Um an
education I took from all the players in Portland. Um
so I was. I was like, with it ain't nobody
I'm gonna see in front of me. That's been the
ones that I've been playing practice against every day in practice,
reminding people what the power forward game was, liking who

(53:46):
was around back then? This is Duncan, kg Webber, Rashid,
a young Dirk, a young you. That's fact when power
forwards were a pivotal part of a team. Man. I remember,
you know, like every night it was something like I
remember every time I thought about like what I needed
to eat because I got KG and I'm coming in town.

(54:08):
I got dirt, I got she see what sea where
it was a monster. Um, people don't understand how good
see where Man it was a killer. He was a killer, bro,
and he was and he had everything man and um.
It forced you to be the best version of yourself
almost every night. And even like scenarios where I mean

(54:30):
back then it was a grind. I mean, bro, you
was like that post was a grind. I mean Ben
Wallace and those guys, I mean theo Radlof and those guys,
I mean her Oak was still in the league. But
the game went through the post. Back then to the post.
It had to test the post for any outside shots
going up inside out with a little back brace. I

(54:51):
had like a little like still plate that's to put
in the people always complain about it because I always
like to spend a ball phone saying like there's like
that was us old back plate back there. But the
game was different bright it was. It was there was
a brind and I think the competitive nature where um
kind of like the Pistons Pacer scenario. People really funk

(55:13):
with each other, but on the court it was either
you or me. It's a different league, different league, Bro,
what no eight man call me, call me hi, I'm
meeting none of that. We all in the court. So

(55:34):
what was it like coming into that situation starting most
improved player? You got a starting to put the ingredients together,
you know, after them going to the finals the year
before the starting not not starting over, but trying to
regain that. What was it like building that team back
up what they It started with Isaiah Thomas. Um. I
gotta shout him out to Zeke meant so much to

(55:57):
me man and miss Thomas for all the meals that
she cooked at our house. Um. He just always have
us over talking about like history. Um. So he started
the confidence in myself out Harrington, Jonathan Vendor, Jeff Foster, Um,
and then Rick Carlisle came in and was able to
put the ice in on the cake when we knew

(56:18):
that we were ready to compete. And then obviously getting
Jack um Ron Um Brad Miller. That was one of
the worst things that the Pacers ever did was trade
Brad Miller. Um. That was like my ace down there. Um,
and we just knew Bro like you know, we hadn't
been through it. Jack hadn't already won the championship with

(56:39):
San Antonio. He knew exactly what it was. Well, people
don't realize we had a different level of grit. Yes,
could be taught. It was like, bro, we had all
been through something. Oh man it was and it was
so funny man that, um, we were so tight. I remember,

(57:02):
I remember, I gotta tell the story. Jack. I remember
you got into it at the at the strip club.
And so like I get a call from my nanny.
It's like with two or three o'clock in the molock
in the morning, like she's like, Jack dead. I said,
what what you mean? It's like Jackson, he's dead. That's
like he's at the hospital. So I'm a guy who

(57:23):
told me what hospital was. So I rushed to the hospital. No, no, no,
you met this. No no, you're skipping the whole part
at the gas station. We met at the gas station
right up the street from the club. First. The reason
why I went to the hospital be remember I'm ready
to can I'm ready to hurt somebody out of it.
I didn't got back on and shake back. My lips
are torn, teeth going everything I'm mad as him. Jam.

(57:45):
I'm like, man, we gotta find out way they go
Jackson jack I'm going I'm with all that. Bro, Listen,
you got to go to the hospital. Because he was
looking at my mom to my team was gone. He's like,
and that's why I went to the hospital. As soon
as you're saying that, my sides ends and started her
because I all everything came down and I realized, and
here the reason why I went to the hospital. You
don't remember that. You came to the gas station, bro,

(58:06):
like a couple of blocks up and you told me, like, no, bro,
you have to go to the hospital. Bro. Listen, his
face didn't even look real, bro, Like I remember seeing him.
I don't know if remember this. I first walked up,
I just stopped. Remember I remember where I walked up,
and so I thought it was in the hospital, but
I guess it was at the gas station. And I
looked in his face as pauls we gotta go get

(58:30):
I said, like this your face, bro, His lips were
so big, bro, And it was like one of those
situations where like I knew he knew I was down
for him, like whatever, but they stayed right there. I
have to have plastic surgery on my lips. My lips
were so swollen that they couldn't know them because my
lip was so big, and they would put down station,
they would have burst him real called loud my wife

(58:52):
at the town. They all stood right there and watched
me have plastic surgery Bro for two hours. It was
so bad, like almost forgot that I was a professional athlete,
like we wanted to actually remember. I said, but first,
we're gonna need to take you to the hospital. First,
you're gonna kill everybody. It was hot dog. Everybody was mad,
you know what I'm saying. But how it went down
because I had nothing to do it. It was me

(59:13):
again helping out one of my teammates, you know what
I'm saying, and me getting caught caught up, caught up
in it. But to what he's saying, like they really
wrote for me, Bro, because like I said, they didn't
have to come to the hospital, you know what I'm saying.
They stood there with me the whole time, and to
a center and to the surgeon time. And I remember
Bro when when he when he did the last stitch,
because I was holding Rick call out hand and n

(59:34):
at the hand the whole time squeezing because I had
to fight the paint. He cut the last stitch and
he put his hand on my chance and say I'm done.
I told him, I say, and I went straight to sleep.
I slept through X rays. I don't remember nothing. That
that's to being home. That that that's when the night
baron called me. And that's a whole another story. But lucky,
I gave you that pretty boy myth to get your
your looks. Yeah, I hit that every day year, saying

(59:55):
but if you come closer to my lips and I
actually you would be like, man ain't goddamn. I don't
know how you survived that. Before we go on, you
mentioned the name that I don't think people understand how
good he was too because he was young. How good
with Jonathan Bender? We stayed right by each other, so
we talked about this all the time. John de Bender,
he was set for talk. Can you compare him to

(01:00:17):
anybody's game or what there was no one like him?
How would you compare Jonathan to I would say he
was a guard version of stroke mouth swift with handles
and a three point ball and all that. We just say.
I think athleticism. Yeah, but his game was significantly different
because he can handle That's what I'm saying, shoot threes
and all that that he can shoot it from deep.
You know, he just there's a career cut short because

(01:00:38):
his knee. This is kind of auth thing. He's playing
too many games and came in beat up. But I mean,
that kid, if he had an opportunity, if it's this time,
because he was a stretch four before stretch man, he
wasn't even a stretch four though he wouldn't practice for
thirty days. Hen come to practice one day and do

(01:01:00):
something crazy and facts everybody like that's when he went practicing.
All that. Keep in mind, heredcome practice one day and
don't go somebody to do something crazy. Brother, Like, bro,
this motherfucking healthy, it's over because he played the two three.
He never he never played the four and went to
the forest. We stayed because I stayed right across the
state from jail, stayed around corners. We all stayed close
to each other. But Jonathan Bender dog was so special.

(01:01:21):
But as one player, if he could have stayed healthy, Bro,
what if I just think he was on the team
that we had just matter we had him in the
lineup right, That's what I'm saying. So, oh four, you
guys reached the conference finals against Detroit. Uh talked to
us about that series. That was jailball man. It was.

(01:01:44):
It was probably one of the most physical series I've
ever been involved with. Right, you knew what you were
getting from the Pistons, right, right, So much respect for
those guys. She been wiless, ripped chumps, Tayshawn Uh, Larry Brown, Um,
they were just you know, we knew that it was

(01:02:04):
the marginal air was was this was this slim and
and you know it's funny it didn't show up in
the day. I actually got taken out of the dog
being talked about the reason that they were able to
beat us because they were They were tight. They were
more tight than we were, right, And so when you

(01:02:25):
have a divide between me and Ron sometimes Jack, you
know mad with Ron or you know mal jamaal. You know,
it was a lot of different things elements going on.
We were able to come and get the collectively as
a team Indiana because we loved playing basketball, right, but
to win it all I love playing basketball, ain't gonna

(01:02:47):
ain't gonna do it. And so you know, we we
ran up on a Pistons team um that was a
little bit more uh together, connected, didn't have as much
talent that we had. They had a out of talent um,
but they were just were a lot more connected than
were when you tried. You tried that the year because
that was the year before I got there, wheny'all lost

(01:03:07):
to them in the in the East Conference finals. But
when the year I come, when the year I came,
next year, you made it a point. You tried your
best to keep everybody together, going out to eat and
doing stuff wrong. Was never around, but you tried. But
as a quarter team, we were all together, you know,
so we went everywhere together. But we did a lot.
I mean, you know, you know, our wives, girls, all
that stuff. We you know, those are the things that

(01:03:28):
I started to kind of pick up little things right
that I noticed the year before that. You know, I
don't know if we thought that we were good enough
to win. We knew we were talented. We looked up
and we had the best record in the league, and
when the conference finals and it's like, damn, what we're here,
and then when they beat us, you know, it was
mistakes that we made, right, all of us. We made

(01:03:49):
mistakes and then coming into the next year and we
got Jack, we was like, should we gonna come, We're
gonna come back to camp early. Time to go. It's
time to go. And you know, that's the most disappointed
because we probably should have one made to the championship. So, Jack,
what's it like for you? Not really understanding what you
were walking into, but ready to go. You know, the
team that's coming off the conference finals, you could you're

(01:04:10):
a key piece coming in that next year. What to
like for you? It was difficult because I didn't understand
the magnitude of robbery with with them in Detroit. You
know what I'm saying. I knew that I knew Jail,
you know what I'm saying. And like I said, the
first day that he embraced me, came to me, made
me feel comfortable and and Reggie speaking U from itself,
I was already comfortably. I knew a lot of people there,
but I did not know the magnitude of the beef

(01:04:32):
with with the Pistons. But I felt as soon as
we walked in the arena the day of Braul happened,
I felt that you like you can feel attention in there,
But I felt the same way they felt, you know,
me going to this team that's a player away. You
know what I'm saying, piece, And I knew I was
gonna be a big piece. And like we fo folks
on championship, you know what I'm saying. The um And
Mike Brown was my coach of San Antonio won the championship,

(01:04:53):
so he was assistant coached there at the time. So
I my Mond was taking championship the whole time. Just
play my point and do what I can. I know
it's in a serious conversation, but any funny practice stories
with yourself, Ron with you many remember Danny Granger and
then uh darn, I remember, like Ron is gonna get

(01:05:15):
he leaving his house in the uniform. It's on the dock.
But I remember we we're were on, We're on it.
He getting mad, everybody getting mad. Like Jamal Tenson. He
takes nothing serious. He's laughing at everything. Right, So he's
about to start practice, bringing in one, two, three two
doors about open Ron coming there with some Air Force

(01:05:36):
ones on with some church docks with his uniform already on.
And when I say he dominates practice, bro dominated practice.
And that's not something needs to do. Not that warming
up just short right for practice time in his practice uniform.
He did stuff like that a lot. But I'm sure
that's a part of the frustration because when he's locked in,
you see his greatness and how integral he could be too.

(01:05:59):
When the Champions, he was just so much stronger and
bigger than any other player that's gonna play at this position. Um,
he I'm not sure if he knew how good he was,
like he he clearly and to this very moment, is
the hardest working player I've ever been around now far,

(01:06:20):
and it's not even close. He used to get on
after the game. He used to get on. He'll play
thirty eight party minutes. He's gonna get on the treadmill
for another thirty after games. Yeah, he going like that.
Basketball was his. To me, I felt like it was
a safe place, right and he people that was playing
against him was scared of him. Terrified bro Like we

(01:06:42):
like we came around you guard him like we knew
with Ron over that garden him and then we got Jack,
so we had a dynamic defensively that it was just hard.
It was anywhere at him at the four. And Jeff
Foster was a great defense too. He was shutting it down.
You get past me and are you gotta do? And
that's back where you would lay motherfucker's down for a

(01:07:03):
little bit, comes of the whole and knock them down
and not get kicked out the game and to spend
it for a week. So, uh, how me and Jack
come into contact is in oh seven you you spoke
on trying to hold things together. Letus hold it together.
We got enough talent, We got what it takes. Pieces
start falling off here and there, Jack and Al come
to Golden State. You guys get done leaving Murphy And

(01:07:25):
what was that like to you? Whether it to sign
like okay, they gave up or what was your thinking
that because of that? But I'm just saying, but I'm
just saying, like as the All Star player and team
still like what you're thinking, like, damn these motherfucker's and
gave up or that? What was your thought process? They're
having a choice, they had to do that, bro it
was it was. It was tough. I knew when they

(01:07:47):
brought in and this is no shot to the other
players they brought in, but they brought in players that
are used to winning, right, have experience with winning with
players who've never been to the playoffs before. So and
we're still dealing with this the like like it was
still a real thing. Uh. It did not help with

(01:08:10):
the shootout that rides a year right after the brawl.
So we're still dealing with the brawl. But votation and
all that. People who don't know the whole story. So
when they're backtelling when Jack's lips full up, like this
is the shootout at the strip club, right, yes, yes,
when I got hit by a car. Yeah, but then
and then also the shootout with with Jamal that was after.
That was after the trade. That was the same guys,

(01:08:31):
but that was after we left. Because when mc corky
was in the car with Room, yes, the same dude
that shout they didn't have something. This is nothing. This
is how a great team that he was. He made
sure that if he got a gun license, the whole
team they came to my house, remember, and we all
got our gun license together. So the whole team got
guns and we registered though right legal, We all legal,

(01:08:54):
right so bound, So we go it's a training camp,
were going to strip club and men are actually leaving,
you know what I'm saying, because it time to go home.
We've been out enough, and some guys something happened with
Jama tend in the club where I had to end
up going back and find my gun to get hit
by a car. Right, all that happened, you make it
seem like that's just some little ship. I mean, yeah,
you know, it's it's a big story, you know what

(01:09:14):
I'm saying. But maybe we'll do that doctor about that.
But so that was the year after the brawl. So
during that time before that happened, we were all. I
was on probation. She was on probation for the ball.
Oh yeah, we always on probation for the brawl. So
that made me vio late, you know what I'm saying,
probation And so my two years there, I get in

(01:09:34):
the brawl, then I getting the shootout of stip Clubs.
So Danny watch like god damn Al just stuck in
the middle of it because I didn't do nothing to nobody.
It was right after he just bought a house. But listen,
it was right after the team just had a meat
we had traded Kimp just had to beat about eight. Y'all,

(01:09:55):
chill out, don't do this, don't go nowhere. Nothing in
the whole team. We had traded Kim to go this
rip club, the whole team. And like I said, once
that happened, I remember, you know, two days after I'm
trying to show up the practice, They're like, man, hell no,
I mean, look at your going your ass home. But
then the whole time they're trying to figure up a trade.
You know what I'm saying. I had nothing to do
with it. I don't even know if they talk to

(01:10:16):
you about it, but I knew they had a trade
in the work says like, okay, just enough it just
know we gott we gotta get a get this stuff
cloud from over us and make it with some type
of moves. So they had to do. I don't blame
Donnie Washing. They still behind us doing everything though, you
know what I'm saying, But I'm just too much. So yeah,
they held too much. I think I think it was
it was consecutive years, you know, we had to deal

(01:10:37):
with you know, it was literally three straight years of
always something. El was like the situation of Ron retiring
to rap, you know, the rap thing and Source Awards,
Soorce Awards and all, and they were just always consistently
something and they were trying to hold on because they
felt like we can win the championship at it. And
then when you start having shootout over with I don't

(01:10:59):
need to laugh, but it's crazy to think in the NBA,
motherfucker's just heaven. This is not a shoot around. Out
guard your grill. It's not shooting around. So Jack and Alive.
You hang around a couple more years, you make a
few stops towards the end of your career. Um, what
is that like? You know what I mean? You hit Miami,

(01:11:20):
you hit Boston, you hit Phoenix, you end in Golden State.
But what's those those final years like and what's your
mental like at that time? Well, it really started, um Again,
Like like you said earlier, I don't really speak a
lot about a lot of things. I kind of sit
in my own element. Um. I end up tear mom
and had a slight tear momaniscus. Um. What year was that?

(01:11:42):
This was right the year after the brawl, maybe the
year after the year after that. I was shortly after
and it was not diagnosed correctly, if you know what
I'm saying. Um, And that was kind of like the
really the time where I felt like things were different

(01:12:04):
with me physically Um, I end up doing it again.
So back then, like, aren't used to aren't telling My
agent used to have me send every you know, m
R I took. I had sent it to him. So
I ended up you know, taking another one and show
that I ended up tearing it twice before it was
diagnosed the first time. People don't people don't even know that. Um.

(01:12:27):
And so my relationships um in the space and again
I say this, and I say this respectfully because I
absolutely love the Simon family that owns the Pacers. I
love Indianapolis. Right, they gave me an opportunity to do
things that is generational for my family, right, no question,

(01:12:48):
right that relationhip. I'm still a little bit salty that
the relationship is strained a little bit because of the brawl.
But um, that situation was not handled right, and I
had to do something different from my mental health and
stability because I was salty. Right, we had trade everybody.
I'm out there, I'm by myself and trying to do

(01:13:09):
you know, do all. I can't even have a chance
to win the game, right, went from being the best
team in the league one of the best teams in
the league too, at the bottom of trying to make
the playoffs, and so I knew from a respectful standpoint
that my time was up. They had a young Danny
Granger you know, in Wing ready to go, and I said,
I went to them and said, look, you know, this

(01:13:31):
relationship is is is reached, this expliration and I just
need to go somewhere else. End up going to Toronto
for a couple of months to get to Miami. UM
playing with d Wade was was was fun. Um Obviously
d Wade is d Wade learned a lot from him,
UM KG and those guys. That probably was my hardest

(01:13:54):
two years of my career because um one, my knee
was still bothering me a lot. Um. It just wasn't
a good fit, right, it was. It wasn't a good
fit for me. Um. I don't know if I was
a good fit for doc um, but we had an
incredible team. I had a good time, you know with

(01:14:15):
those guys. But it just, you know, I believe that
I I was meant to go there because of my daughter.
Right if we if I don't go to Boston, we
don't find the leak in our heart. Right And so
that is to me, that was God's will and plan
for me to go there because they had the best

(01:14:39):
children's hospital in the world in Boston. So end up
spending there for two years. Cold calls me, Um, I
don't know how. I don't know how you found out
I was having some issues with my knee and he said, man,
we gotta check out author con treatment in Germany. So
we end up going to Germany. At the time, I
was I was so mentally out of it. I was

(01:14:59):
just trying to finish my career on my feet that right,
and end up going to Phoenix no expectations. Had a
good time with them, and then Golden State. Obviously we
know we all know what that city is and what
was that young team like, because you got a glimpse
on your way out of what was coming like right
before that dynasty started making their run. You were around
that young team with coach Jackson, right, what was that

(01:15:22):
team like that? Dynamical and clay and direct. It was
rare bro where you know in our league, you know
money is king, right, you know, people see contracts coming up.
It was strange because all of those guys came in
together right a year or two apart. Um. They were
like this coach Jackson, you know, Mark Jackson did a
phenomenal job, but right away they work ethic. I'm like

(01:15:45):
watching Steph and Clay before and at the games. I
remember watching steps shoot him and Clay to shooting and
if it hit the rim, it didn't count. Right, they're
shooting a hundred threes right, And so when people seeing games,
all you hear they does that ship like makes to
hit the rim, don't care if he hit the rim
and doesn't tell her free throw games like that, But
motherfucking three point shooting. That's crazy. But it's crazy. And

(01:16:08):
then you're with young Draymond and you know, I remember,
I remember having a conversation with Steph and and and
Steph can voucher that I said, Bro, I said, if
you lead this team, bro, are you're gonna win m
v P and y'all gonna win it all? I told,
I told class of Clay, I think you're the best
two way player in the game right now, Bro, unreal.

(01:16:32):
People talk about the shooting, but defensively, you don't even
get credit for you don't make no the offense. If
it's crazy to me how good he is on defense,
he doesn't get the respect he deserves. Just crazy and obviously,
Draymond has been like my little brother, and we spent
a lot of time talking about, you know, the league,
talk about history, talking about you know, things that need
to happen. And I was not surprised. I knew that

(01:16:54):
they were gonna be good. I mean they were like
this close the previous two years because we we had
that a lot of city team and I knew, like
week with Battle with you guys, but this I was like,
this team is young, this is it's gonna be their
league in a matter of time. And it was our
tough was to make the final decisions every time. I
know I was pushed away, but you know, you you
was able to, you know, playing long eighteen years and

(01:17:15):
walk out on your own terms. And what did that
decision feel like? They say, I'm ready, I'm aint going
loup b I knew my last two years, my last
year going to games was like it's the hardest thing
I did. I had to do, like getting up on him, bro,
I'm like, I'm like, I'm like sticking my head out
to winning like a dog and let them win. Air
hit my face like it was it's taking me forever

(01:17:37):
to stretch and get loose for games at the time.
My wife and kids didn't live with me to let
the last two yeares stop working up. Yeah, some little
patches one day and like the next couple of games,
like he's super loose, he's just dug it all right, man,
everybody to put them passes all that, everybody put one

(01:17:59):
of the circle. I had to try everything possible to
get right for the games bro, and I knew that
it was over for me because I didn't love playing anymore.
Like again, my last two or three years was strictly
about walking out on my feet. That's it, like I

(01:18:22):
I it was so my last five years was so
hard physically, like I never like people talk about a
c L S and all, but that meniscus. When that
meniscus is banged up and you can't grow it back,
you can't repair it. That's bone on bone, right, Your elevation,
your quickness, all that, all that ship is gone. And
it was just more like I needed to be happy

(01:18:43):
and respectful when I look in the mirror, right, that
was more. I didn't care about anything else, what nobody
else said, just looking at the mirror. Are you happy
how you ended it? And that's that was my thing
now It was crazy because the Golden State trying to
give me to come back twice. And I remember the
next year because I wanted the next year, and then
like I'm at home like this, remember because we beat

(01:19:04):
you guys in game seven, uh in in uh l a.
And then the next year all came they came back
and win, and that was your last year. That was
your last game, bro. Listen. After that game we lost,
I went my wife was in the room. I went
back in the room. I just laid on the bed.
I said, that's it. It's like I said, I told
I said, she's like, what do you mean? I said,

(01:19:24):
I'm done. I had I had nothing left emotionally in
the game. UM. I needed I needed to give more
back to my kids. So um eight years, bro, man
of so much. UM it helped me be a better person.

(01:19:45):
UM it prepared me if everything I think that I'm
going through now and hopefully I can give back to
my communities and things that I've I've been good at
things I wasn't as good as and let them use
that as a tool. So you kind of saw you
just said, you know, You're last five years were a
mental and also physical Brian, when did you start thinking
about what's next? I mean, obviously you you're comfortable. You

(01:20:08):
you did a lot, but as intelligent as you all,
I knew there was something that you were going to
be reaching for next. When did that start kicking in
for you? When I told my meniscus, okay, I knew.
I knew right away, I said, I said, just what
they're talking about? Like he was just like, I keep
like because you never had no surgery right just on
his lips A minus surges like out of minusurgey when

(01:20:37):
from winning down Protejays had money removal the way lout
power of quotes, and uh, I had a broke broke
my toe when I was planning protejacks and I had
to get a bones, breads taken out much but not
that serious. But I had him. I had a meniscus,
so I told my meniscus. With the Lakers, went up
for a rebound, got undercut and landed on my leg

(01:21:00):
and was I thought I'd just prayed my ankle, also
trying to shake it off. So I kept playing, trying
to shake it off the field call. The time I
would go to the bench, I put a towel over
my leg and then I take the towel off and
try to get up and my knees like this. I'm like,
oh my god, Like what happened? What happened? What happened?
Like you tore something? Come to find out with my meniscus.
But luckily they were able to go in and take
the little piece out and then you know, six or
eight weeks later he had been but he was in

(01:21:22):
the hours. Just to credit them, we talk about how
this smart is him and hours thinking businesses and stuff.
We were in Yanda, like he had a club and
like they were thinking after basketball, way before anybody else was.
We think about that because like when we played, if
that wasn't the talk in the locker room now you're
talking about with now now the locker room and talk
because I caught the end of it, what are you
investing in? This isn't like at this company collect That

(01:21:43):
wasn't the conversation. We weren't talking about ship like that.
So that's why I kind of want to know, you
know what excess And that's why that's why I tell
you I would never fall off because I got real friends,
the real brains. That's very smart to me that take
him this motherfucker. I got him and I got I
can never lose acts. But what was it like coming out?
I mean, because Jack and I landed on our feet,

(01:22:04):
never even thinking about doing commentary and funking with the
media because we looked at media as the kind of
the cops back when we play, like you don't even
really want to tell them too much. But now we've
been able to cross. So but what was your like,
what was next for you? Think as you're coming towards
the end, trying to you know, trying to figure out
what the passion was, right, So I'm dealing with that
in a lot of stuff at this restaurants or whether
it's take businesses or kind of resort building and stuff

(01:22:27):
like too. But um, like just making sure that I
had a passion. I remember my first six months of retirement. Bro,
it was held. It's a lot, bro it was held,
but I was like, what am I supposed to do?
And I actually had ship going on, But it was
like I remember sitting in my office and like borderline

(01:22:49):
felt depressed because I've been I played in the NBA
half my adult life, right from seventeen to thirty five.
Feel that boy, you know that's ex sedative nature. You're
definitely missing. The biggest thing that I missed was the fellas, right,
because we can go back into the communities and we
can have some great friends in Dallas, Um, but it's

(01:23:11):
different because they don't understand what we are. Like in
many cases, we're dealing with the same situations about the
family relationships, whatever it may be. And some people can't
digest that. Right. They see, Okay, you got money, you're
living in like this, and like like what funk's wrong
with you? Why are you mad? And why you say? Right?
They don't get that, And so I missed the bus rides,

(01:23:33):
the locker rooms, the plane rides. Um. I don't think
nothing in life can ever replace that. That's the main
reason why I did the Big Three though, for that brotherhood.
You know a lot of a lot of guys weren't playing,
you know what about the game kicking with our brothers,
you know, out on the wing events, Like it was
just different. You know what I'm saying, Because like you said,
that's what we all have missed that Coarabnerie. All right,

(01:23:55):
we're coming down to the end, man, So first thing
to come to mind, we have our quick hitters, tough
at player matchup in your career, it could be a
lot of Um. I would probably say dirt though, because
he was able to shoot off either foot right, and
he was set for tar and he kept it kept
up here so you couldn't get to it. And here

(01:24:17):
he'd come down hard on you and just stop and
pull and pull right and you're still moving right, He's
straight up and down. So I would say dirt. The
whisk is probably the toughest cover, um that I've had
that up. If you can go back and relive one
night of your career, would it be then you have

(01:24:37):
like a sixty point game we were together. If you
got one game, you can relive when the game would
have been ship probably the malice, Yeah, that crazy, Yeah,
I'd like to relive that again. Um, what would you
do different? So honestly, I would have preferred for us

(01:25:00):
to have an on court fight with their pistons. I
tried it, tried it a couple of times, took my
shirt on square woo on it. Not you, Darren colemen,
but anybody don't want to smoke with you. But that
I would have rather had the fight with them, because
then you're talking about a two to five games suspension, right,
It's just a player of fight, right, and it does.

(01:25:22):
It doesn't linger into seventeen years later and we still
talked about the same then. R anybody but there anybody
but Derrek Cole. When I did not want that smoke,
I know my weight class, they had a bunch of
that chilling. Was trying to break it up, but she
was trying to break it up. They was chilling. You
know what I'm saying. When I squared up, when I
tried to squad with Lizza Haison, the coon was be

(01:25:43):
lining to in front, in front, I'm like, no, I'm cool.
I'm going yeah, No, no, j Are you plus four
going to the black Top? Are you taking all time?
J Uh? Isaiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Uh Shock Chest, cheap
top five artists, Big Jay, z Uh, Kanye, whichever Kanye

(01:26:16):
you won't Yeah, probably so I ain't away heartbreak Kanye.
I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. Um, I'm gonna go
Drake too, Um because I ain't heard Drake put up
put out no bs? You know how many is that
right there? Um? Pop solid? Look he got emotional, you

(01:26:39):
can say thinking about different five five Dinner guests dead
or alive. Damn y'all hitting me. Um Holly Berry. You
should know how much I love Holly Berry. Um, damn uh,

(01:27:02):
Really that's it, he said, Really, that's it. You got
five dog Hollyberry. You man, that might be the point
of ship we have for that Barack Obama, Um, Martin Luther, King,

(01:27:27):
Malcolm X, Great Fox. Yeah, gonna get a dope. Last question,
my brother appreciate you coming. Um, who do you want
to see on all the smoke? Before you answering? You
have to help us get your answer on the show.
I probably said Kanye who I don't we even loved

(01:27:49):
to alcohol. You gotta go get him out the Georgia.
Don sleep. We can't have a mask on because our
things got to say him not to give you got
the mask on just when that could be anybody. Yeah,
you're gonna know it's Kanye Jo. Man. We appreciate what
we said earlier. Man, you're not You're you're a man
in very few birds. When you speak, people listen because
you know what you're talking about. But thank you for
your time today to luck with the project. I'm glad

(01:28:11):
you're finally after seventeen years beat over to get your
side of the ship out, so hopefully it'll rest, but
it's probably not gonna rest for me, and it's gonna
be a little wild after this documentary, I'm sure. But again,
man for your time and a real brother to me,
My brother you know, well, I don't know the twenty
five years we've been knowing each other, so I appreciate
you coming on the show and always holding me down
to bro. Yes, that's a wrap, all the smoke, Jamaine O'Neil.

(01:28:34):
You can catch us on Showtime Basketball YouTube or on
the Heart platform Black Effects. This is all a smoke,
a production of The Black Effect and our Heart Radio
in partnership with Showtime

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Jermaine O'Neal | Ep 99 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

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