Penny Hardaway | Ep 36 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | #StayHome with SHOWTIME Basketball

On All The Smoke Episode 36, NBA great, Penny Hardaway joins Matt and Stephen to open up about his career. He talks about his pairing with Shaq and his battles with MJ while he was on the Magic. Hardaway also tells stories of a young Kobe entering the league and what it was like playing against the 'Dream Team'.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
On my high school team. We have five guys make
the NBA. We head the county Rocket gets some mecca
of basketball. Here are those who come before us, upon
whose shoulders we stand. It's nothing that you can do
to stop the competitive and that's just in the water.

(00:30):
Welcome back to a special quarantine edition. We got a
real special guys. What's up with your Brodie with the
virtual handshake, I'm gonna tell you something that I never
told no about it. I want to smoke. Welcome back
to a special Quarantine edition of All the Smoke with
my brethren. Stephen Jesse Jackson. What's up? What's up? What's up?

(00:52):
My HERMANO? How you doing? Bro? You're good? I'm good man,
just chilling man. I'm I'm excited about this episode. But
you tell you all the words out of my mouth.
Go ahead, I got, I got, I gotta because you
know it's some it's a big broad mind. You know
we've we've played against each other off the NBA court,
but we haven't had a begging session. The last couple
of segments I have I'm gonna be on this banking segment,

(01:15):
no question. Bring him on in, Bring him on in,
man without further Ado. One of my favorite players growing up,
Man Killer. Let's welcome Penny Hardaway Man. Thank you for
your time and joining us today. Yeah, Man, appreciate you're
having me on here. Man, my phone was going up now,
that's all we're trying to do. Were trying to help you. So,

(01:39):
fifteen year career, four time All Star, three time All NBA.
You were a draft day trade Orlando picks see web,
Golden State picks you. You're swapped out and your head
to Orlando. Talk to us about that. I know that
the story goes a little bit back or you and
Shock were shooting Blue Trips, which is one of my

(02:00):
favorite movies. Shaq was blown away by how good you were.
He says he didn't know who you were before, but
you know how Shock be talking. So we don't know
if that's true or not, but he said, once y'all
started fel he was absolutely blown away. Tod Orlando, they
needed to get you, Ortlanta felt like they needed to
take team Shock up. But see Webb. Shock obviously got

(02:21):
what he wanted though, because you were drafted, Like I said,
Golden State traded Orlando. What was it like going to
Orlando with the with the new team and play with
big fella. Well, you know what's so weird is you
said that he took the words out of my mouth.
You know how shock is. Shaq knew me when I
was a sophomore in college. We played on the Olympic
Olympic Festival and UH in Minnesota that summer, the summer

(02:43):
before I I came out. But Shock, like I said,
you know, you like to make the stories sound a
lot better. That's my dude. What did was when I
got the Blue Chips though and started doing the movie.
It was weird because I was having to try out
for teams on the weekends like fly Out and fly Back.
So I'm like, when I go to Orlando, I'm gonna
rip the ship up. But all summer I got an
audition with Shack, so I didn't shoot the ball. I

(03:03):
passed them up with the ball. Every time I was
three dropping a toe with two people on him, I
was giving them the ball every time just to say, hey, dog,
this is exactly what you're gonna get if you bring
me to your team in Orlando. And that's what happened. Man,
And then getting down there obviously had a young squad
man Um that was very talented and went to the

(03:24):
finals and only our second year. But the audition to
get there, I knew exactly what I was doing to
get as big as their ball. I knew that he
wanted the ball. And we're definitely gonna touch that. We
want to backtrack and take our time to get to
So how are you holding up? Coronavirus? You know everybody's
in quarantine. How are you and the family doing? Man?

(03:45):
Everybody's good. Man. I work out every morning. I try
to get up every morning early, work out, and then
I'm back on the couch, become a couch potato. Now
I'll go to the facility. Uh, there's no one there
but me. I work out. I'll come right back home. Uh.
And then I get on the phone and start calling recruits,
FaceTime recruits, and know what I gotta do. The job
can stop. What has that process been like though? I mean,
you had what touch on it, but you had extreme

(04:06):
As soon as you touch the coaching scene, you had success.
But five years, five titles? Uh do your little high
school run? Uh? We'll talk about you got to college.
But what has that process been like? Did you ever
see yourself turning into one of these coaches and not
here recruiting these kids and and doing what you're doing
on the highest level. You know, it only hit me

(04:28):
when I retired, because when I was retiring, I was like,
you know what, I might go to t N T,
I might go to ESPN. Seriously, I was just thinking
like I might just play golf and then do that
in the fall. Uh, and just kind of enjoy life.
And if you've seen the story, I had a buddy
that had colon cancer, was dying from cancer, was a
coach of my middle school team in my neighborhood. Joined
with him and started coaching, and really kind of got

(04:49):
a boat from that situation, and then moved from there
to a you, a you to high school and never
once really thought about college until maybe a couple of
years before it really happened because I was really happy
with what I was doing with the kids in high school.
I'm kind of glad it happened with college because you know,
you coach, you coached the kids that I was able

(05:09):
to coach in the Alan Obinson game, Boogie Ellis and uh,
I knew I knew this kid was gonna be good.
But but being in college and how difficult has it been,
you know, being able to have the experience with these
young kids, but also the way this season has gone.
You know, the season and stop y'all were able to finish,
like even even with the beginning this season with with
the star player, you had like talk about all that. Yeah,
you know when I saw that, I saw the AI

(05:30):
game last year and I saw you with the young fellas,
and I know one thing you don't get with stat
he's gonna keep it one hundred And I know he
was keeping one hundred with him and I saw a
bookie there and I was hoping that he could kind
of get under you and AI and kind of get
some questions. He had workaholic man, and to me, he
came in with high expectations and he put a lot
of pressure on himself. And that's what a lot of
kids do because everybody wants to be one and done.

(05:53):
And he's a terrific kid. He's all. He was our
hardest worker this year and the season didn't go as playing,
but guess what he didn't with He kept grinding. He
never stopped his work. And that's what I love about
this this level because sometimes you gotta get out the
mud is it's not gonna happen with you coming in
one year and then going in and going on to
the next level. It's not as easy as a lot
It's not as easy as a lot of people trying

(06:14):
to make it seem. So. Yeah, it's been fun for
me this experience because I'm feeding back me, Mike and
me and microre feeding back into the kids everything that
we've learned. I feel like it's a cheat sheet before
they get to that next level if they're capable of
playing on that level. Absolutely talked us a little bit
about losing Wiseman with the n C Double A rule
violation and how weak we all think the n C

(06:35):
double as Jack didn't even Jack said the n C
Double A league. But talk to us a little bit
about that process, because that kid was a monster from
the beginning. You got a little taste of them. I'm
sure you got to see a lot in practice, and
then the n C Double A suspends them over some bullshit. Yeah, man,
you know what, that was crushing because James is just
pretty much an innocent Bostandard. There was nothing malicious with

(06:57):
that that happened. But obviously they can paint a picture
how they however they want to paint it. And for
that kid to have to sit out twelve games, uh,
was devastating. Obviously, he fought it when it got a
restraining order from the court to be able to fight
the first three games until they kind of gave him,
um what his ruling was going to be. And you know,
they actually pushed him out of college. I don't think

(07:19):
that's what I don't think that's what it should be about.
I don't think you put kids in the position to
try to choose whether to stay in school or leave
school while they're already there, because you're you're doing things unfairly.
And that's all just standing on that. But I had
his back, um, and when he left, man, it crushed
me because I knew that he needed to be there,
he wanted to be there. But just it was just

(07:41):
two overwomen with what happened with the n c A. Man,
and I know you can't speak on it because you
worked somewhat you know, closely with the nt double A
being a coach, but you know from an outside looking
and I just think they're destroying college sports, you know,
with the way they're making so much money off these kids,
not barely giving them anything back. They're starting to try
to make them pay a little bit here and there,
but just really making it unfair. And now you're seeing

(08:03):
kids make that jump. You know, kids are going straight
to the G League. Now, kids are going overseas. Now
they're avoiding college. And you know, to me, I had
a college was the best time of my life outside
of having children. I was blessed to play, you know,
fourteen years in the NBA, but college was a blast
for me. I'm sure you can speak on how fun
college was, but the n C double as sucking that
up for kids with their outdated slave mentality rules. You know,

(08:26):
it's it's funny that you say that because college was
the best time of my life. And I know, people go, man,
you made hundreds of millions of dollars, How can you
say college was the best. College was the best time
of my life. It was because everything was so pure
and you were you were with a group of a
group of guys that are all on that same page
and pushing towards the same goal. And the fan base,
the college fans are just amazing. And and if you're

(08:48):
blessed enough to be on a team good enough to
make a run in the n c A tournament. That
makes it even better. But I understand why kids are
choosing other avenues now because it is very tough on
this level. They're making it extremely tough. So it gears.
Talk to me about the Hall of Fame class with Kobe,
Duncan and KG arguably one of the greatest inductee classes

(09:09):
we've seen. What are your thoughts on that class? Man?
Just phenomenal, man. Unfortunately what happened to code uh still
almost like shocking to me on a daily basis to
understood that, understand that happened. But to have that class
with Casey and and Tim and Kobe going together, man,
that's that is that is phenomenal. Man. I know it's
gonna be very emotional on a lot of levels that day,

(09:31):
and guys that are going in, like Katie and Tim,
they're gonna have to, you know, lock in on, Hey,
this is our moment. But when Kobe's opportunity comes, man,
it's just not gonna be a dry on, you know,
or nothing. No matter if you respected him from the
point of view who he was as a fierce competitor
or whatever it was, you know that that dude was

(09:51):
just unreal, and to not be here to even receive that,
you know he wanted to be. He would have that
would have been he would have had a smile so
big on that job, yeah, sir, and to see that
not having this crushing yes, you know, he would have
had an amazing speech ready for every one. Reflect a
little bit on Kobe as a competitor. Did you get
a chance to know him well honor off the court?

(10:13):
What was your experience like with him and against him?
You know, it's funny. I have a weird Kobe story,
and I have to say to two of them really quickly.
I met Kobe when Kobe was in high school and
I didn't know who he was. Obviously, I'm the man
in in in the NBA. I got a little penny commercials,
I got my signature shoe, I'm on top of the world,
on first team All NBA. And he came to me
after a Sixers game and asked me what he should

(10:35):
do on going to the draft, And man, I didn't know.
I had never known who Kobe was. And I felt
so bad afterwards because he asked me should he go?
And I was like, well, he was like, well should
I go? And I said, I don't know, young fellow,
you might even go ahead and go to college. This
is Kobe Bryant. And he was like, well, they're telling
me I'm gonna be a lottery I said, well, they're
telling you're gonna be lottery dog, then you should go.

(10:56):
I changed that because I didn't I didn't know who
he was. And a couple of years later he's in
in the in the league. He never forgot that conversation.
Of course, not Magic Johnson. Matthew Johnson has All Star
Game in the summer. Everybody knew those, those Magic Johnson
games and Chriss Midsummer Night, Summer Night. So I'm in

(11:17):
that game and Kobe calls me out. I said, oh,
ship this dude. Remember he remembered that day in Philly.
And I just didn't take it like he did obviously.
But all he needs is a little a little something
to just get that that that momentum going on. I'm
getting you back. You didn't believe in me, You didn't

(11:37):
you didn't know me. And we went at each other
in the in the Magic game. Obviously he was a
young pup. I got the best of him in that game,
but he did come to me and go. You know,
I want to learn. I want to be the greatest.
And I knew then though that he was just gonna
be unstoppable and unbelievable moving forward. But yeah, he that's
my Kobe stories right there. I love it. And that's
how he looks. He looks for a little ship like

(11:59):
that little chick up something to add to his like okay, yes, okay, Hardaway,
I'm gonna see you in a couple of years. I'm
gonna catch up with you. He definitely wrote my name
down when en up the sixest game, like I gotta
get this, dude, that's funny. Jordan returned back to the
game in n Did you want to play the Bulls
in the playoffs when he returned, Man, you know, the
biggest thing was when m first came back and I

(12:22):
was like, he's back, Like I wanted to play against
m J. And then he retired before I came into
the league. Then when I came into the league, he
comes back. So my first mindset is, damn MJ's back.
And then I snapped out of this here I stopped
real kick like you gotta go in, you got because
this is my favorite player along with Matt Matthew was
number one, but MJ who who didn't like MJ. So

(12:44):
when he came back and we played them for the
first time, I got the best to him and pipped
that game. I think I had thirty six and I
was so I didn't even sleep that night because I
was so hyping Ridy to play that game and we won.
But I think I only pissed him off. I pissed
them all, sure, But it was early in the season

(13:05):
and we were one of the first teams and early
in the season to beat that sevent team. We were
wanting to ten and that's the game I had thirty six.
Shack didn't play that game because he was hurt, and
I remember that game very well. But as far as
the bulls man it was, it was really you had
to get your sleep the night before, honestly, like moving
forward if you're gonna play those guys, because they were
just relentless. They pulled out every one of your weaknesses.

(13:28):
If you weren't a baller, you want a jump shooter,
they were gonna make you shoo jump shots if you
try to get to the basket. They were plugging the paint.
They just were not going to give you your strength
and what you really love to do, and they were
just they were relentless at all times on what they
needed to do, and then offensively they ran the triangle
to perfection. So to me as a competitor, I enjoyed
every game against them because you knew you were playing
against greatness. Now looking back on it, because like I said,

(13:49):
I think obviously, once you get in in your career
and you're like a hamster in the will you keep looking,
you keep moving forward. Looking back on that and how
long ago was and putting yourself back in in in
that young Penny, what are your thoughts kind of seen
behind the scenes, Because we talked about it before, like
social media now, fans are so spoiled they get to
see everything, I mean, from from motherfucking tin your shoes

(14:10):
to go into the bathroom. Back back then you didn't
get to see no behind the scenes. And and like
you said, Jordan was under your favorite players, one of
me and Jack's favorite players. What are your thoughts kind
of looking back and seeing the ins and ounced what
was going on with that team? Two things spit out
right away when I looked at that. The first thing
was how they treated the GM the boys was hard.
Bro didn't want his motherfucker right. I mean even this,

(14:34):
I don't know who he had the balls to talk
to their TM the way that those boys did. First
of all, right, right, only only a hand full of
players could even talk like that period to upper management.
And secondly, I was trying to figure ot where the
hell I was when Scotty set out the first part
of that season. I'm like, what was I doing and
not noticed? I didn't remember that Scotty set out the
first part of the season and what was going on

(14:55):
with the whole deal? I mean, my prime I'm playing.
I'm thinking, I don't I look it then and go then,
why don't I remember Scotty not having served me in
the summer and having surged you during the season and
having a contract dispute. I don't know why I don't
remember that because you were too busy. But some people
ass I didn't remember that. But I thought that was
kind of I thought that was kind of messed up though,
because Scotty was he was a moment. Wasn't both both ends.

(15:20):
Let's take it back to where it got started. Uh,
born and raised in Memphis, playing outside of them hot
to ask basketball courts. What man, what kind of competitor
and mental approach to that? Installing you at at an
early age. They don't know about that Midwest committed penny.
They don't know about that emitted it out here. Hey man,
I'm talking about you losing eight pounds a day. Eight

(15:43):
I was already skinny as hell, so I didn't need
to lose I go out there. My shorts were fit
by the time of hoop Sesson was over my shorts
and fit fall. Yeah. Yeah, but but I think that,
you know, everybody wants to stamp their hood or stamp
their city, Like, hey man, you had to get it
when you went to this court of that court, but
got blessed because the city of Memphis, on every street, corner,

(16:04):
every part, it was like no files, it was you
had to who if you weren't proving, you couldn't get
on the court. And a lot of times with the
older cats, you have to pass the ball, a lot
of play defense and get that get that ball to
the people that was really doing it. And so you
got your chance. So you have to build that reputation
with the guys before they even allowed you start shooting.

(16:24):
And that made me tougher. That made me Misslely tougher
physically tougher because there were no files and you had
to defend and that that era it was. I'm so
thankful that I grew up in that type of error.
Though decorated high school career. Your senior ear you average
thirty six tens, ass, four steals and two blocks. You

(16:45):
did everything. You were named Parade magazine Player of the Year.
What went into your college decision? Did you not want
to go far away? Did you what was your thoughts
on just basically going right up the street at the
time it was Memphis State, correct now Memphis. Yeah. First
of all, I had my all my relatives were doing
the scorebooks, so they made me look good. So if

(17:08):
if I didn't have, they still put it down. But no,
But honestly, I think just I fell in love with
the teams in the eighties, the Memphis Tigers in the eighties,
the late eighties, like when I was in eighth ninth grade,
they made that run when they went to the Final
four a couple of years. They had an unbelievable team,
and I kind of fell in love with that team
and I wanted to go there from like eighth grade

(17:31):
all the way up. I kind of fell in love
with that group and it didn't matter how how good
or bad the team was. When I when I knew
I was gonna come out, I just said, man, I
want to do this for the city, stay home and
then try to do it myself like those guys did.
And my team was all Memphis guys. We had Memphis,
and we went one game from the final four. We

(17:51):
lost in Cincinnati and the least eight. They went on
to play Michigan, Michigan. That's when Chris Berber called the
time out against North Carolina. That whole thing. But honestly,
the season came in because I wanted to stay home
and make a difference. I felt like if I if
I stayed home, that I would make a difference for
my city. I love that. So it doesn't get off
to the way you're playing. Uh, you have to sit out,

(18:12):
do the academic problems. While you're sitting out, you're you're
you're held at gunpoint, shot in the foot. I'm sure
that changed your perspective on everything. Talk to us about
that rough start. Like you said, your whole thing was
to put off for the city, give back to the
city better the place you get there, it doesn't start
the way you wanted to to, and then on top
of that you get robbed. Yeah, I think going back

(18:33):
to men to eight, I was never a kid that
couldn't do work. I would never a kid that that
didn't really focus in the classroom. My senior year, I
got caught up with the wrong group, and everybody understand that.
I got caught up with the wrong with their wrong cats,
and started really hanging out and doing things that you're
not supposed to be doing, things that I've been taught

(18:53):
not to do, and I kind of lit school, kind
of bypassed, like, oh, I'll get to that, but I'm
in the streets. So that's the same thing that happened
to me my fresh year. I got in, I didn't
pass a c T. I didn't take it seriously, and
then when I didn't pass, I went to school and
my freshman year kind of hanging out with them saying
guys a little bit got me caught up in a
situation where I got robbed and then I got shot.

(19:16):
So that's the side of me. From that point. It
was like, all right, dude, you gotta make your mind
up on do you want to do this side or
do you want to do this side? And that bullet
made a lot of sense to me. That bullet made
a lot of sense to me. And I said, you
know what, it's time to get to go ahead and
do what I need to do. Man, I got a
promise in future, and it's time to act like I
know I have. I've been raised right and and that's

(19:37):
what happened though, but it was it was an I know.
I opened it though, sitting out after being robbing and
then and getting shot while I was sitting out there
definitely wouldn't have been a little penny in the streets. Noo. Man,
you get back on track, make the Dean's List, your
team makes it to your lead eight. You lost to

(19:58):
our Nick van Exel Cincinnati nine two summer. You get
a chance to play for the USA Development team that
gains to face the Dream Team. And that was a
hell of a team, man, And I heard stories. I
want you guys to get to that. But I want
to name a few players are on that team. Chris Webber,
Bobby Hurley, Jamal Mashburn, Big Rodney Rogers, Eric Montrosh, Grant Hill,

(20:19):
Alan Houston, and you guys get to go against the
Dream Team, everybody's all time favorite team to watch, you know,
the most talented team we've ever put together. What was
it like in those battles? Because you guys are young
and up and coming. I know you, I know Webb
was out there talking ship, you got your swag. You
guys had a lot of young talent on that team.

(20:39):
What was it like going to battle against them? Dudes? Man,
First of all, you get star strokes soon as you
walk in the room. We we check in and youre
walking in the room, you see Larry Burry, Michael Jordan's,
David Robinson, Charles Barkla Exer, John Stock and all these guys.
I'm like, oh my god. Like but then you again,
you say, I don't want to embarrass myself with these cats.
So once we get to the court, Maggie john Stock,

(21:00):
then y'all gonna have problems. I don't care. I have to.
I have to show y'all how can ball. And that
was my mentality. I have to show y'all to get
the respect from these guys. And man, we all went
out there with their mentality that if we if we're
gonna be out here, we're gonna we're gonna ball out.
And the first scrimmage that we scrimmaged them like a
real scrimmage, we shacked him because they didn't take us seriously,

(21:21):
like we out there talking. I mean, you know, see
web see what about they're talking so much and he
kissing them off, but we're having so much fun. The
next day we come back after beating that ass them boys,
was so much more physical. The first day wasn't this physical?
The second day is like they told the referees, y'all
better not blow y'all whistle one time we're beat I'm

(21:45):
talking about they beat our ass man, and it was
just a lesson learned, like we called him off guard.
But the whole experience of the whole time spending with
them though, was you could just tell they were just professionals.
They took their crafts so serious. This and that just
kind of just resonated with me. Just man, if you're
gonna make it to this level, you gotta be about

(22:06):
your business. And it was a great experience for me
and the rest of the fellas. So you returned after
that experience, I'm sure you're on cloud now. You return
for your junior year, you have his twenty three eight
and a half, six and a half assists, two steals,
playing out of your mind all America and you make
the you know you're on the finalist list for Player
of the Year. What was it like? I think it

(22:27):
was dope. I never knew that that you had a
whole Memphis squad. Tell me what your time at Memphis.
That was a culmination of it. But tell me with
the time in Memphis was like coming back from that
that that USA Select Team, Man, can you amount? I
was on cloud down. I was like, I don't give
a damn who come at me? I just played this.
I just the bird. I just say, come on, man,
stop and I mean I'm ready. So I came back

(22:47):
into the season so locked in. I mean I think
I don't know if I missed the day in the
gym because I was just so locked in on that's
where I need to be, That's where I want to be. Uh.
And then coming into the season, like you said, with
a group of guys that were just basically saying, you're
our guy, We're gonna follow you. And I had some
I had some good talent on the team. They weren't
large names, but they could really play the game, and
they were tough and man rodding that way. That year, Man,

(23:09):
I was ready to lead. We had gotten David Vaughan
from Nashville. He was the guy that the only outside
MYMI this guy was really David Vaughan. He was from Nashville,
couple a couple of hours on a road and Man,
we just went to work. Man. We had an unbelievable
season and like I said, it ended in the Elite eight.
But there was nothing like that run. Man, not even
going to the finals to play against Houston in my
second year was anything like that run that we made

(23:30):
the n c A. Man, it was just it was different.
That's though. That's people don't understand unless you get a
chance to experience how fun college was. And it's almost
gonna be a foregone conclusion now for the majority of
the top top athletes because, first of all, because the
policy of the n C double A, but the G
League keeps getting sweeter. You're seeing people like LaMelo Ball
going overseas and doing what they're doing and buying this

(23:52):
team and coming back and getting drafted. So the grass
looks greener on that other side. But for someone like me,
you know who who did four years in college. You
did three years of college. You know we both can contest. Man,
college was, like I said, outside of having children, Man,
it was it was the best time of my life.
And U it disappoints me one because the competition level
isn't what it should be. But just to know that

(24:12):
guys aren't gonna get that last chance. Everything now is
so strategic and its money and it's you can risk this,
you can risk that. Back then, we just wanted to play.
We wanted to play with our homeboys. We want to
go have a good time and then hit the NBA.
But now let's skip that little middle part. Let's get
get to the NBA. So ninety three you're drafted. Uh
shake David Stearn's hand. What's that moment? Like? Man, come on, bro,

(24:32):
I came out of a dorm room with twin bid
and you know when you're shake Javid sn head that
you know you're at I'm dumb done with that tweet.
I'm I'm about to get a mansion. Yeah, I'm about
to get a man to do. Seriously, though, it was
just a dream come true to just shake his hand
and say God, thank you for the opportunity, because this

(24:53):
is what dreams are made. Though. Man, when you when
you see it early and you work your ass off
to get to it and you get to it, that's
a lot of people can't say that. Man. So when
I shook his hand, it was like, man, thank you,
thank you, I've arrived. Now I read some things that
you want. You wanted to get to Orlando to play
with Shack or is that? What is that where you wanted?
Where did you want to go in the draft? Not
that you really had a choice, but it was that

(25:15):
somewhere you wanted to go. I wanted to get to
Orlando because I was thinking about the Magic and Kareem.
You know the type of situation. It wasn't I didn't
want to play with Free and Tim Hardaway. It was
just I felt like I would be better with Shack
and that and that tandem. Man, it worked out for
everybody when it happened. When it happened, high excited would
when it happened. Man, When they told me that it
was gonna happen on draft light and I shook Chris

(25:36):
his hand and I knew he was going to go
and say now I was going to Orlando, man, I
just I never stopped smiling because I was like everything.
I wanted to play with Shack. I wanted to play
with Shade. Rookie of the year, your first year, rookie
of the Year, take your team to fifty wins, playing
all eighty two games, which is unheard of. Now, Um,
what stood out to you most your rookie year and

(25:58):
when did it really start clicking? Because I mean you
hit the floor running, Yeah, you know, coming in, getting
with Shaq, getting with a team, uh that was on
the up and coming. I was basically just saying, man,
it's time for me to just stamp my name now. Uh.
A lot of people didn't really know me at mentor State,
and I was like now, and then the Orlando Magic
drafted me and traded me for Chris Whatever. Everyone knew

(26:19):
Chris Whatever. So I was ready to just kind of
stamp my name and say it's time for me to
make my mark on this league with Shack. It's time
to win the championship. So that I was really just
locked in every single night, I was so ampty and
ready to go against. It didn't matter who it was.
It's a different game. Now. Who were some of yours
that's in mentors um on that Orlando team. Well, Nick

(26:39):
Anderson was definitely mentors. Scott Scotles was a mentor until
we traded him. But Nick and I kind of drew
drew to each other because I was a fan of
those Illinois teams. When he played at Illinois, they had
squads him and Kendall Gill and Loyd Helm all those
guys that played at Illinois. They were, man, I think
their smallest guy in the starting line up like six
seven six six there were it might have been Stephen
Bardo and Nick. So I was like, always been a

(27:00):
fan of his. So when I got to Orlando and
then I was a fan of Ben Ben Wilson they
got killed like back in the day. And when I
heard his story, I was like, man, I just asked
so many questions. And when I started asking questions, he
saw how humble I was. I didn't come in with
any kind of ego. I was like, man, I just
want to be locked in. I want to be looked

(27:20):
at and respected by my peers. And Nick was the
man on the team before Shock and I came. So
we're just kind of connected. Man, blue chips, Like I said,
one of my favorite basketball movies. You and Shocked together
on the big screen. Nick Nolte, Uh crazy with this
crazy Bobby Bobby Knight impression. What was it like? I
mean to like, you're you're in movies and everything. You're

(27:45):
you're a star. Now take me back to and what
your mindset was, because I'm sure people probably couldn't tell
Penny shit. Man. Hey man, they have a movie out
to be playing with Shock, to be one of the
hottest teams in the league, and that starts was starting
to shine. Man, it was an unbelieve like it was
a moment that I can never forget to have a movie.
You know, everybody's like, you're in a movie, a big

(28:08):
time movie too, man, thank you. I just felt like
it was it was real too. At the time, I
was like, this this movie the picks college basketball in
a real fashion because you got your boosters, you got
your you know. Back then, I was like, man, everything
about this movie is real, and I wanted it to
be so natural. And then our our producer and director

(28:29):
let us play real basketball, so we didn't act out
anything except for the last scene for me to throw
shack the lot. So I was loving everything about it.
It was on Cloud nine. It was the last time
someone called you, Butch mccraye. It's been it's been a
couple of years and since somebody's call. But they do
still play the movie a lot, so I can appreciate that.
And they got they got a lot of people making
that jersey, making your jersey from the movie and wearing

(28:50):
them too. Yeah, a lot of people like because I
actually had a set of my shoes, the Air Penny fives.
They just brought out the Western Bush mccraye with the
number twenty two on it, and everybody, I'm like, a
lot of people don't know what the two means, but
that's what it is. Yeah. So the second year, I mean,
you guys experienced success right off the bat. You guys

(29:11):
are in the finals. You have a one seven four,
first team All NBA. You're probably thinking, like, ship is this?
This is what it's like. I mean, like I said,
because it's normally your process. You guys hit it. You're
in the finals your second year. Speak to me on
your guys mindset and what you learn from that first
finals run. Well, when we got horrors Grant from the Bulls,

(29:33):
I locked it in. At that point, I was like
we're going to the finals. You can just got you
got that field when you play on a really good team.
You guys have played on good teams, I mean in
sat Cast Championship. So I had to feel like we're
gonna be unstoppable now now that we have Horror. This
is a missing piece that year. During the season recular season,
we were running through everybody. It was just it was
very easy first couple of rounds of the playoffs. Um,

(29:56):
we were confident that we just weren't gonna lose, even
though we lost the second We beat the Boston Celtics
the first game by sixty three points in the first
round of the playoffs, and they came back and beat
us in game two at our building, and we had
to go to the Garden and beat them two games
in a row. We shut down the first original Boston
Garden in that series. And then the next series was

(30:17):
Michael Jordan and the Bulls, and you know, they don't
lose the playoffs series, so it was like, man, these
dudes haven't lost in so long. Man, both of you know,
like we gotta lock in, and we locked in and
beat them, and then we went to the Indiana Pacers
went to Game seven with them, and once we did that,
the Spurs and the Rocket series were still going on,

(30:38):
and we were like, you don't matter who when, it
don't matter when we bust in the ass, it's us,
it's our year. And when Houston one, I think we
got a little cocky because we beat them both games
in the regular season pretty handily, and we were like, man,
we're gonna smash these dudes. Man had them down in
the first quarter, midway through the second and they made
a nice run for the end of the half, and

(30:59):
then the third quarter they made another run and they
went nip and tuck and it went over time and
they beat us. And all you're talking about letting the
air out, I think that game it was like it
deflated our whole team to where we could never recover
at all. And they they shot the crap out of
the ball. Kenny Santa Sell, Fernon Maxwell, Robert Ory, Mario Elie,
they shot the ball and Dream was Dream was stupid. Man,

(31:22):
he was stupid. I've describe that that was stupid. But
talk to talk to because to me, he's one of
he's one of the great players that gets overlooked so often.
Talked to us a little bit about what that battle
was like, because Shock is the up and coming next wave.
You're an up and coming next wave, and y'all ran
into motherfucking the Dream and he he set everything straight,

(31:46):
talk to us about how talented it wasn't what that
matchup was like between him and Shock at that time. Well,
let me get this straight. Dream was the vet. Shack
was kind of the kid. Shock held his own, but
it was a different level at that time. The Shock
that was with the Lakers, if he would have been
that Shock, and we would have played against you, so
we would want question. But the Shock that was in
Orlando was just too young. He was he was still
getting his but it just didn't know enough. But man,

(32:09):
Dream was really to me, are freaking small forward playing
center and that ship was unfair. His foot is a
good way to put it. Was sick. His footwork, his
shot making ability, his i Q, his toughness, his it's
just he was just to me, he was a robot dog.
That dude deserves way more credit than whatever he gets

(32:30):
if he's not getting it. Absolutely So, like I said,
you're in the finals your second year, you're thinking it's
gonna be like that every year, and you had the
harsh reality of looking back on it now, like it
doesn't come that easy, it doesn't happen that fast. You
and Shack's final season together was the next season, Um,
talk to us about that process. Yeah, at the end
of that series, we ended up getting swelled. Every game

(32:53):
was closed, but they just pulled off at the end.
But after that first game, I felt like the series
just kind of it deflated the whole squad. And going
into the next season, of course, we got high hopes, like,
all right, we just got swept, we're pissed, We're gonna
run through the season again, and then we're gonna smash everybody.
And it didn't. It didn't work that way. It Uh,

(33:15):
it was just we started having injuries. There was like
contract turmoil, and then all of the stuff started happening,
and it's just it just kind of went downard. It didn't,
it went downward, and all of a sudden we woke up.
We woke the bulls up by beating the grass in
the second round, and like they was like, hell no,
we're about to take it back over. And then m

(33:35):
J worked the whole summer, came back, we get to
the We won the first round pretty easily, but ended
up playing the Bulls in like the second round that
next year and they swept us. We checked and play,
Nick didn't play, Horse didn't play. It was like I
was out there like by myself and they were just
freak licking their chops. And I didn't know Shack was leaving,

(33:56):
but I guess as the season was going on, he
was kind of thinking, man, maybe this is it for me.
Maybe I need to change change scenery. And we went
into from into that season into the Olympics, and uh,
I saw all the articles, but I'm still not really
paying attention. I'm thinking we're gonna get through this. Seeing
the articles, the fans are saying Shot can't shoot free throws,

(34:17):
why should we resigned him. I'm looking at this ship, like,
hold up, what are we talking about? Man, Give this
man exactly what he wants. But I don't even think
he really wanted the contract. I think he wanted to
leave anyway. I think he really saw l A as
being an opportunity for movies, music and to you know,
be with Kobe and was like, I think I can
turn that situation around, and went from Rings over there

(34:38):
and when Shaq left. I knew the magnitude of that instantly.
I knew it was over. I knew it was we
were done before he left. I mean, talk to me
about you guys experienced a lot of success early on.
You guys were cool, friendship, good, teammates, good. Everything seemed
like it clicked from the outside looking in. How good
do you feel like you guys could have been If
you guys would have got your time together, five seven,

(34:59):
eight years together, I think we would have gotten at
least one. With the way the tempo was going to
the league, we would have added a couple more pieces,
but what we already had, with us getting better, having
more chemistry, I think we win at least one. Okay,
we can only speculate about what would have happened. I
think for sure that with one we would have had one.
And especially with these were getting better and better every

(35:21):
year and me getting better and better every year. So
you touched on it. Olympics dream team too, You guys
win a gold medal. Now you're playing with Shaq? He
is Is he gone by this point? Is he had
signed with the Lakers at this point, you know the
mess up situation? Yeah, he had? He had already signed.
When we were in the the press conference, even before
the Olympics started in Atlanta, they asked me, how does

(35:42):
it feel not to have Shack as a teammate, and
if anyone was there, I laughed it off, like, well,
if that's what's gonna happen, then that's what's gonna happen.
They're like, you don't know, he's already gone. Like I
did not know Shack had already signed. It was gone.
I said, if that happens, then I wish him well.
But it had already happened. I didn't even know. That's crazy.
Talk to me a little bit, or talk to us

(36:02):
a little bit about how Little Penny came about, because
to me to this day, he was still the coolest
little Batman and Robin sidekick cartoon I've ever seen for
an athlete. Super creative. You showed a shiploaded shoes, So
talk to us about Penny, the little Penny of the
character and having your own shoe. Yeah, that was a
little Penny was just a blessing man. I was just

(36:23):
kind of a side of assassin. I was. I was
about my business out on the court. I didn't really
talk to yet. I didn't. I didn't really get it
in until you took me there, and then it it
was whatever. But Nike recognized and it was like, you
know what, we need to get a trash talking alter
ego for Penny and call him a little Penny. And
they flew a Penny would do all the all the
trash talking for Penny, and Penny will just go out

(36:43):
there and and take care of Venis. And when they
brought it to me, I instantly liked it. I was like, Yeah,
let's do it. I knew when they when they told
me that that it was going to be successful because
comedy along with you know, a basketball players that at
the height of his career or growing to the height
of his career, I thought that it was gonna be successful,
and thank god it was. How dope is it? Twenty

(37:05):
five years later? Do you still have one of the
most relevant shoes in basketball? Man? I was a sneaker
head in college. You came to my dorm, if I
got any money from apparent uncle, whatever, it didn't matter.
I was buying some seekers. I didn't even get food.
That's why I was so skinny. I was buying sneakers
before food, so to get to the league and to
have my own signature. Shoot, that I have a part

(37:25):
of building. I couldn't believe it. I really couldn't believe
that I have designed the logo and I have my
own signature. Shoot, I knew how how powerful that was.
And man, I'm to this day. I walked into my
room and see signature shoes and go, man, God has
God has been amazing. Now that following year, you're left

(37:47):
to carry the workload at years old, Uh, without shock,
you you experience your first bad knee injury. Talk to
us about where your mental mindset was, because, like I said,
there had been so us success leading up to that point,
Finals appearances, all NBA Olympic gold medals. Now you're kind
of starting over again at twenty five, and then you experience,

(38:09):
you know, a really tough knee injury. Talk to us
about that. Yeah, that was that was horrible. Man. I
obviously already was just kind of just down and out
about shack leaving. And you try to make the best
of it. You get the training camp and go, all right,
the big Fellers not coming back. Man, it's on your shoulders.
You can't lose team. You gotta keep this team going.
Forward and hopefully we can get a free agent soon
to come in and at least help. Nobody was gonna

(38:31):
ever be able to do what Shack could have done.
But I get into the season, and I make it
through the season pretty decent, like I didn't really get
hurt little knickknacks. Get into the playoffs against the Detroit Pistons,
and Joe Dumars going for offensive rebounds to slammed into
the back of my knee. It was most excruciated. It
was the most excruciating pain I ever felt in my life.
But I kept playing. And back then if you miss games,

(38:54):
it was like, you can't miss games. We need you
on the court. So I played through it that season
and wants to season was over. Man, that summer I was.
I kept feeling it, but I was like, it's not
really stopping me from playing. And man, as it got
further and further in the summer, almost close to training camp,
I don't know if I did more damage to it
playing on in the summer. I told our team doctor, Man,

(39:15):
something just isn't right. And I went to the doctor
and I had a torminous because and I had to
have my first surgery and man, it just seemed like
from that point I just never felt right. Man. I
just I don't know what it was, but I just
could never regain or get back to that explosiveness and
that speed and that quickness that I had. It was
like I was just kind of pushing through, but it's

(39:38):
just never never really felt right. And that was that
was devastating for sure. I know they had to be
frustrated to bid your prime, being your prime dealer with
the injury. What what was your mentor like at that time?
You know what I was? I was I was really
messed up in the head because I was thinking, like,
if you don't get back, then then it's gonna I mean,
where do you go from here? And I was saying,

(39:59):
I just gotta lock in, work my ass off and
get back get healthy. But I wasn't doing it right.
I didn't have somebody in my ear going okay, slow down.
First of all, let's slow down. You don't have to
have a rush, you know. Grant Hill set out for
two years after that. I don't know if Jack remembers this.
When I was playing for the Suns, I tore my
monis because against the Spurs and I played the whole

(40:21):
series and Timmy didn't play. Timmy set out. When I
look back on those days, and that's what was going
through my mind. Man, do you need to sit out
until your wealth or when you start feeling better? Do
you need to play? And that's when I was wrestling,
when the whole time, nobody told me, Man, sit down
into your I think I would get the eighty ninety
and I was like, all right, I'm ready and I

(40:41):
go right back out there. I never really fully got
into a hunter, and that was that was the era
I was from, and I just damaged myself more and
couldn't get over the hump. It's interesting to hear you
talk about that and say that because, like you said,
eighty two was it was a badger pride back then.
Like you, there was no days off, there's no work management,

(41:02):
load management. If you can walk, you can play, man.
You know what I mean? And you hear you hear
you see guys such as yourself, who who kind of
ran yourself to the ground because the competitive nature and
how you came up, wanted to get you back on
the court. You know, Grant Hill with Naggie injuries, Brandon
Roy coming back too soon from injuries. It's just our
competitive nature to want to get back out there on

(41:24):
the court, because this is before we had all the
technology and sports and they can monitor your body and
read your body and do all this kind of ship,
and it definitely would have changed the direct trajectory of
your career in my opinion. Obviously you're still to me
one of the greats, but you would have had more
years in your being Penny than you definitely did. Well.
Let me say this two Penny Penny is I can
speak for this. He was one of them. He was.

(41:45):
He was different from a lot of these stars to
man like, Penny hooped in the summertime, like he played
in tournaments. He he had teams, he used to drive
down Louisiana and playing tournaments like he was a real hoopisode.
When you talk about stars and lets of the game,
you gotta put Pen in a differ category. He was.
He was the face of the league, but he was
regular because he's still hoop. He still hooped with us
in the summertime and all that type of stuff, So

(42:07):
he had a different category too. You know, I know
I appreciate that because I took that seriously. Man, I
love the ball and balling was what I was really
felt like I was going to do. And I went
to d C, I went to Atlanta, I went to
Lake Charles were jacking him down there and everywhere. I
played ball everywhere. And it didn't matter, man, because I
see where guys don't play in the summer. I see

(42:27):
where guys are just kind of just drilling. I'm like, damn, man,
who Like, that's what we did, you know? We whoop
And that's what I love doing, though, man, And that's
what we didn't getting nothing out of it. Penny wouldn't
getting nine, you were sponsoring teams, you weren't getting nothing
out of it. Just to win the championship and the
hoop with your boys in the summer. That's it, man,
And that's what the love was. Man. I was just
one of the dudes that had always hoop and I
wasn't gonna stop just because I had some starter in

(42:49):
the league. Like I was bigger than anybody else. I
wanted to keep that going in the summer. This is
post lockout post Michael Jordan's um post shack. You guys
face a young Alan Iverson in the first round, they
beat you, guys, what was it like seeing him in

(43:09):
that next wave of young players on the way many
I was different because this dude was six ft but
he had like seven ft arms and you you he
had that. He had that ball on the string, and
he could make tough, make him take tough shots. I

(43:29):
know he he just he was athletic enough, he was
fast enough, he was tough enough, and he was a
tough shot take a tough shot maker. And his attitude
was on a million like he had that little man
complex so hard, like you can't tell me nothing, you
ain't about to stop me. I don't care who you
put in front of me. And watching that live while

(43:51):
I was kind of going through my thing, it was like,
oh this, hey, I coming, he come in and he
coming here to stay for a while. That motherfucker came
for sure. Traded to Phoenix and get a chance to
play with Ja Kid. Tell me what your thought process
is leaving Orlando going to a dope city such as
in Phoenix, Jason Kidd, one of another one of the

(44:12):
top Usherlan point guards along with yourself, What was it
like being out there getting a chance to run with
Jay Kid. Well, I feel like at the point of
where I was with Orlando that it had ran his course.
I wish, I wish he would have been different, but
it had ran his course. Dr Rivers came in and
he was a coach. He was talking about having to
rebuild my entire career, rebuild my name around the city.

(44:33):
And I'm sitting here going, damn, I gave all these blood,
sweating tears, played injury, and I gotta kinda go back
and build my brand all over again in Orlando. And
I was like, you know what, J Kidd did a
hell of a job, you know, calling me and saying, hey, man,
let's do it. And I was like, man to me,
J Kid, one of the greatest ever played the game.
We can go. We can go get some stuff done

(44:55):
out here in Phoenix. And I decided to go to
Phoenix and the two thousand playoffs, your signs mashed up
the Lakers against Kobe and Shock. What was that? Like? Weird?
At hell? That was weird. That was weird because I'm
playing against Shock in the playoff series. I never thought
that would have happened, you know, when I first went
into the league, and I'm with the Sons, and of
course that's their championship. Years um, they had a lot

(45:18):
of hiccups, uh in some games where they should have
lost and then Kobe comes through with a shot. I
mean we had them in game three in l A
or game four and he makes a shot over Ja
Kidd to uh to win that game. We had to.
We we led that game the whole game. And obviously
you know the Portland Trail Bases situation where they were
just smashing them and then they make the up, they

(45:38):
make the run and sack the lot of the run.
So I mean, to play against them, you can just
tell that they had the effect. You could just tell
they were locked and load of to every area with
role players, with stars, and we took them the six games,
but it just wasn't enough. But J Kid and I
were like, hey man, well we'll get back there next year.
But you could just see the Lakers. The Lakers were coming.

(45:58):
You just saw it early on. Yeah, So a combination
of injuries and early playoffs. X. Since you're off to
New York and oh four, what's your thought process as
far as knowing you and what you're capable of bringing
and what you felt like you can go to the
Knicks and accomplish. I think that was probably the most
disappointing time to be in the city, on the biggest

(46:21):
stage in the Big Apple and not be me. I'm
out here like a seller myself on the biggest stage,
and I'm like, man, why, I just wish that I
could just get to a point where I could be me.
And I just pushed through it. But I knew I
wasn't me, man, And I love New York. I felt
like the fans deserved me at the highest level because
you know how New York is, and playing for the

(46:42):
Knicks was a huge honor. I didn't take that lightly.
But I was also going home and like going, Man,
I just hate I'm not me, I'm not myself. What
did you do? What did you do to come back that?
You know what I mean. You can keep trying, you
can keep pushing, but mentally, what did you Because that's
what I like to have other people understand. There's so
much fucking mental that comes along with this process. What

(47:03):
did you do to to fight your way out of
that or deal with that, or or handle that situation
during that time? You know what I said to myself,
I said, man, you're here, Let's make the best of it.
Work your ass off, Give it all you got, don't
need nothing in the tank and lit it and then
you could you could go to sleep at night, you know,
And and that's what I did. Man, it does funk
with you mentally because it's just you. I mean, the garden,

(47:26):
the mystique of the garden. You got Spike Leo on
the sideline, You got all these stars and they want
to win so badly, and we weren't winning. And I
was a part of that negative tradition of the Knicks
haven't won in a while. And it just that bothered
me too, because I felt like those fans, out of
all the fans in the NBA, deserved to win. The

(47:48):
loyal Did you have any clue what was going on
with Marbury behind the scenes while he was there? I didn't.
I mean, Steph was. He and I hit it off
really well when he came to the it came to
the Suns from the net, and when he went back
to New York, I felt like it was a chance
of a lifetime for him because he was in his prime.
He could still do it. He could still do it, So,
I mean, who wouldn't want to go back home in

(48:09):
the prime of their years? Even though he was playing
for the Nets over New Jersey. It's different playing in
the garden. So I felt like he was on cloud
nine going back, like I'm about to put on for
the city, and I just wanted to help support that
while he was there back home. So you inju your
career in two thousand seven mentally, Like I said, I
really like to know the mental approach. Where were you at? Well?

(48:31):
Did you say it was time? Did they say it
was time? What were your thoughts heading to Miami. I
think that my my thought process was I had gotten
myself in a really good shape. Let's let's let's produce.
Let's be consistent, and let's produce with the heat. I
didn't know I was gonna start when I first went there.
I didn't know what was gonna happen. I was just
ready to take on whatever challenge they gave me and

(48:52):
appreciate the opportunity and man, just go all out. I mean,
I had definitely fallen from grace. I wasn't the same player,
but I felt like I could still contribute. So I
wanted contribute to help shock being reunited with Shack, and
then it helped the way because the way it was
that dude and it was weird, man, because it was
like I had gotten to the point where it had
faded so badly that the respect wasn't really there anymore.

(49:15):
It was like, that's Penny Hardaway, but that's really not
Penny Hardaway. So it started to become the beginning of
the end. And I knew my time was number even
though we were when the way got hurt and then
Shot got traded for Shawn Mary, and I knew that
it was over for me. I knew Pat Rally was

(49:36):
going to rebuild and try to get hiring the draft
because you had Mike Beasley, Yead, Derek Rose and those guys.
So right before Christmas, Pat called me was like we're
gonna go, young man, We're gonna rebuild. And I was like, okay,
thanks for the opportunity, and I knew there was the
end right there. That was that was That was a
tough day because I really wanted to end on my
terms and I didn't end on my terms. Two thousand

(49:58):
and seven. You retire that year, yep, I really. I
didn't officially say I'm retired, but yeah, pretty much too.
South and Step. It was the retirement touton. So initially,
like I said, a lot of people don't get you know.
I think you you fall into a category because a
lot of guys maybe not obviously not with your talent,
but then not ending the way you planned it or

(50:18):
the way you dreamed or the way it was supposed
to end. How hard was that process post career? Uh,
from a day to day standpoint, it was very hard
to accept because the guys that were that were commentating,
the guys that were kind of the guys that have
to talk about guys like myself, they wasn't giving me

(50:39):
my just too when I was that guy. They were
basically saying that I was basically who I was at
that point my whole career. And I noticed, that's way different.
You gotta still show me my love and my first
seven years of my career. Come on, man, don't forget
about those those years. And it almost made me feel
like leaving the game that they weren't gonna wreck guys

(51:00):
that in my prime, that I was one of the
better players that have ever played the game. And then
I got injured, so that part of it was tough
to handle. And I was just hoping that one day
that I would get my dude, And now guys are
definitely saying it more like, oh, you know Penny was
was that guy versus now he didn't belong in the
category with this person or that person. So I don't

(51:21):
appreciate that more. You belong to every category. Like I said,
Jack and I before this show, when we found out
we was gonna get you, I'm like, hell yeah, because,
like I said, I just think there's a lack of
appreciation for what came before us. And barring injury, the
pace you were on, the level you played at people,
you were making all NBA with m J, battling MJ,
being MJ, holding your own, you know. So we definitely

(51:42):
want to, you know, take our hats off to you
because you're someone that we looked up to for sure, man,
and you definitely did your thing. And I'm glad it's
starting to come around because I think too often people
forget and you know it, it was so long, it
was pre social media, it was pre a lot of things.
So sometimes talented people such as yourself that didn't in
the right way the beginning gets you know, looked over.

(52:03):
But we definitely don't want to have that happen here, man,
So we wanted to give you definitely a shoutou from
that standpoint because you were a motherfucking killer bro straight up.
And you know, it means more than me coming from
you guys than somebody that don't know the game, because
you guys were balls. You guys understand the game and
we all have a mutual respect. But I know you
guys ain't gonna give credit where credit is and doue
y'all are as where as they come. So to hear
that from you guys, I definitely appreciate that for sure. No,

(52:25):
we appreciate you. Man. So post career two thousand eleven,
you touched on it a little bit. A childhood friend,
Desmond Merryweather, convinced you to come back and help him
walk us through that process because to me, it's it's
very heartfelt process. But you experienced success right away coaching.
Talk to us about both of those, you know what.
So what was so crazy is that we had like
an alumni game my middle school to my high school.

(52:46):
If you played at the middle school high school, played
the game. After that game was over, Desly came up
to me and was like, man, I'm really not feeling well.
I go to the keemos I don't want to sit
on the bench. It's kind of tough. If you can
just come help me with my team, just until I
can kind of start to feel better. And obviously I did.
I was like, man, I'm not doing anything, I'll come.
When I went into the building and saw the team,
the team was like a championship team already, and all

(53:08):
I needed to do was just add a little structure,
some discipline, and a lot of love to some hood kids.
And DA's was already giving him love. But he was sick.
So I got in there and man, this dude is
fighting and battling. Man how to take a time out
to go throw up out to coming from Keybold and
come back to the bench. And I was like, man,
I gotta, I gotta, I gotta help this situation. And

(53:30):
that one year or that one week or that two
week turned into three years of being the middle school coach,
uh and Desmond is just fighting and still battling through.
The kids didn't know the magnitude of what was going
on with this man until the third year. He wouldn't
tell him. He wouldn't tell them that he was sick.
He wouldn't tell him the magnitude of what was going on.
And man, that whole experience really taught me a lot

(53:54):
about me, taught me a lot about love, taught me
a lot about situation circumstances. And I never thought would
have been a middle school coach, But we took this
group of kids who were in gangs, who were street cats,
who were not really thinking about school, not even really
thinking about going to college, maybe a couple of them,
to having a whole bunch. I feel like, we're all

(54:14):
going to college. We all want to be something better
than what we wanted to be before you got here. Uh.
And you and Desmond are the great role models. Y'all
make us want to be better. And that alone made
me feel really good because I knew that we had
changed the culture in our neighborhood from thinking about being
in the streets to one day being on Wall Street.
That's my mentality to those kids, and that's what I

(54:35):
really wanted to do. And they did it, they believe,
and all of those kids, with the exception of two,
all went to college. I those three teams, and that
is a success versus what would have happened if we
wouldn't have come back and cared about them doing that. Uh.
That catapulted to AU. So we want to start AU
program so that these kids could get national exposure. We

(54:58):
knew that they could play, but we wanted the coaches
in the country to see them play and for them
to get rankings and get their names out there. And
we built a great program and then that went on
to high school and then from high school. Now I'm here, man.
But the whole entire situation of coming back home and
getting back into my neighborhood, not just any neighborhood, but
my neighborhood was man so gratifying because most guys ain't

(55:20):
going back to the hood. Jack he can understan you know,
you know he in the hood. He touched his kids
lives and talked to him and mentored all the time.
To be back there everything. It means everything. So for
me to physically be there every day for them, uh,
they really appreciated that, man, And it's been it's been
a great ride. Well I can imagine, I can I

(55:40):
can imagine if I had a coach or even an
NBA player, let alone Penny Hardaway coming back to him,
coming back to us, giving us the knowledge, spending his
time like we I know my outlook and and and
my my dreams will making to the NBA would have
been more touchable if I would have baby to experience
that as a as a as a on kid. You
know what I'm saying. It worked out for me, but

(56:02):
I didn't believe it. Other people believe more in me
than I did myself. But if I had actually had
the NBA pairer come down and talk to me, give
me pointers in high school, man, that would have done
wonders for me. So you what you're doing for them kids, Man,
that's priceless. Bro. You know I appreciate him. I'll take that.
I'll take that at the heart to man because coming
back home. Man, your city needs you, Bro, your city
needs you. I mean giving money. I've given money since

(56:22):
ninety three, but to actually be there physically, to touch,
to talk, to be a father's figure, to be a mentor,
to be a coach, to be a counselor just to listen.
I have to make deals with these kids to say, hey, man,
if you could just not get angry, then then too
with the teachers, and I got you in this area
and then and then if you're gonna get angry, makes

(56:45):
you just ask to teach you to give you five
minutes and I'll go to the teacher and go, Okay,
he's having problems at home. He has eleven siblings. It's
eight different fathers. Four the fathers might be doing for
his siblings and nobody's doing for him, and he's mad
and jealous of his siblings. He might come in mad
because he hadn't eaten and he was hungry, and he
was mad. Then nothing was happening for him. So I'm

(57:06):
doing deals in the schools. But I started feeding them
in the morning, feeding them out of school, feeding them
at night to make sure that they got good square meals.
And these kids were just they were all over the place.
So I had to start making deals with them to
get them locked in, and they started understanding what I
was saying. Man. So the beauty of all the inside
part of it was it's definitely it's been worth it.

(57:27):
I think that's beautiful. And obviously you explained how much
you know, effort you put in, and I'm sure how
much they appreciate it. Tell are like, what did that
mean to you though? Because like I said, I get
a chance to coach my kids and there's nothing like it.
I think it's it's amazing. It's just exciting for me
as when I played, being able to coach my kids
and see them succeed at something they love and appreciate

(57:47):
and get better. What did all everything you did and
everything you're doing for kids, What does that do for
you as a man. It's to me, it's just showing
that I made my grandmother proud because she told me,
if you ever make it, don't never forget what come from.
That's that's that's saying with me forever. So for me,
I don't walk around with a badge. I just know, man,
I did something to help my city and my neighborhood,

(58:10):
and I did something to help motivate them. It wasn't
with the money. It was me in the hood. Every
day I'm driving Bentley's in the hood, I'm driving Rovers
in the hood and they're seeing this and touching this
and dreaming through that. I'm just saying, I'm driving by
the apartment that I lived in. I lived in like
six different sections of apartments in the whole neighborhood, and
me and my mom we were like all over the place.

(58:30):
But I'm driving by these same places that I grew
up in bro In Bentley's and Ranges and going to
these kids to say, hey, man, I used to live there.
I used to live there, and look where now. So
for me, it's just man, I thank god they have
the opportunity to even come back because by my career
being cut short, I was actually able to do this
talk to us to the bit. I mean, it's it's

(58:51):
you've touched on a little bit, but it's full circle.
You're literally back where you started at coaching at Memphis.
How did that come about? Well, obviously the team was
to have a success. We had just gotten a legendary coach,
coach Tubby Smith. Fans were getting a little restless because
we had had a few years of a down season,
and this is a basketball city. They don't really want
the Tigers to be down. The Grizzies can be down

(59:11):
a little bit, but the Tigers, the Tigers can't be down.
It's just that's the Cities team. And and and and
I guess at the time where the group that I had,
I had a group of kids that I started within
sixth grade. That group was actually all seniors at the time,
and it was actually the time that I was really
trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I

(59:32):
told desmid that I was gonna stay with that group
of kids until they graduated. And the time that the
job opened up for the University Memphis at the same
time as it was for the kids who were seniors
to graduate. So the time and on that couldn't have
been more perfect for me. Beautiful, talk to us. You
touched on a little bit. Twenty five years later. You
guys just said you just released a shoe one cent.

(59:55):
Talk Talk to us about where's that right now and
how you feel to know twenty five years later you
still have one of the dope at shoes. Well, no, man,
I owe not you a lot because they hung in
there with me. They stuck with me. They kept building
my brand with my shoes. I actually have had a
different shoe drop, a purple shoes drop every year over

(01:00:16):
the last ten years, twelve years. They're droppings of the shoes,
even if it's new shoes or if they're remaking the
phones in different colors. Man, that's that's love. That's love
right there. Man, to still be relevant when kids that
are in today's age didn't even know who it was.
Of course, they have YouTube and they can go on there,
but to have shoes still being dropped to this day. Man,

(01:00:38):
that's that is love. You know you got a dope
shoe when you could wear on and off the court.
You mean, them phones go with anything. So that's when
you know you got a dope ass shoe. You could
go straight from basketball practice, go home and shower hopefully
to the club and their motherfucker to still be doing
your things. And you know what's so funny is that
I told Nike, they said, what do you want? What

(01:00:58):
do you want out of a shoe? I said, Man,
I really wanted to be like Jay's because Jay's you
can wear them on the court and off the court.
My shoes to be one on the court and off
the court. And that's what happened. Man, we built the shoe.
I wanted that. I did want that. That's what's up.
So we're gonna dump Ton said. Compare ns A basketball
to the early nineties. This NCA basketball compared to the

(01:01:20):
early nineties, Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a difference
because guys stayed in school four years. Like Matt said,
he stayed in school four years. It was rare for
guys to come out early at all. Back in the
early nineties and guys were staying longer, so it was
a better Um, it was a better game. It wasn't
it was a veteran. It was kind of like it said,

(01:01:41):
a veteran, a veterans league of college players because everybody
had got a chance to play together two or three years,
So the teams were better. Now now you're getting guys
to come in for one and done and they've been
taught to just be about themselves and really not even
be about the school. Most guys go to school to
be go to school to be one and done. They
just want to get numbers and then get to that draft.

(01:02:02):
So the basketball is kind of watered down a little
bit more now because the substances gone. Guys aren't staying
two or three years. And I get it, you gotta
go get that money. But there's a ton of talented players.
But the nineties was just was better because the guys
stayed in school longer. Even though you're still getting good
basketball now, it was just better basketball back then. What

(01:02:24):
do you, obviously, as a head coach now in the
Major D one program, how do you approach those one
and dunes? Because I know U c. L A Was
stuck a long time when we don't want one and
dunes and you see they've been in the motherfucking toilet
for years. How do you how do you approach as
a head coach? Okay, well, if I'm gonna get this
hell of a talent for a year, how do I
make him buy into what we're trying to do and
that's gonna help propel him to a lot of repick? Well,

(01:02:46):
I think you know, because I played in the league,
I kind of identified with the one and done better
than most coaches because we were then. We were the
guys that had the game that we're gonna go to
the draft, that we're gonna be, that we're gonna be selected.
So I gonna get that guy and say, hey man,
let me develop you, let me teach you, let me
pour into you what I know. I don't care about
you being a one and done because I know that

(01:03:09):
you're special talent. You can't help me win. I can't
get a group of guys around you and we can
go get this thing done. And that's what that's the
way I approach you, Like I don't need you to
be in school three or four years. And in today's league,
the older you are, the more you're not gonna get drafted.
So my job if you're if you're that type of dude,
I need to get you out of here in one
year anyway. And that's what I tell those kids, that's

(01:03:31):
what's up. Who better to teach them? If there was
one plan that you could play with in your career
that you didn't play with, who would it be back
in the day, back in the day or just anybody? Anybody? Man,
that's a tough one. I'm a fan of. Probably probably
because of probably because of my mental Yeah, I would
have loved to play with with with Magic Lebron because

(01:03:54):
those are big guards. I would have loved to play
with those guys in their prime. It was me and
my prime. I mean I thought that that'll be sick
y'all followed the same category, all the same category. Man.
Imagine that that ship who was who was in a

(01:04:15):
poison point guard that you every time he played on
him like it was time to go. You had to
get on top of it, like you have to get
the roll. We just had that dude right there, hey
g P. As they came dog that dude he did.
I never saw him take one game off I never

(01:04:37):
He always was on a million when it came to
getting at you. So when you played him and you
had to bring it, Bro, he he was gonna respect you.
He was gonna dog you if you didn't bring it. Yeah,
I know he didn't take a light on nobody know
Which teams did you enjoy playing. I enjoyed playing the
Bulls because they were like, they were great. That was
one game I look fortunate every time with m J. Scotty,

(01:04:58):
that whole little era with that those Bulls teams, because
you knew that if you beat them that you had
done something major. Like there was one team that I
look forward to playing it every single time. Who were
some of the younger players in today's game that that
that caught your I obviously Zion, y'all everybody say joy
what y'all didn't do? Man, I gotta I gotta close
look at you. Being here in Memphis and I went

(01:05:20):
to some games and I saw how he played. I
was like, this dude got it. He got the infected bro. Yeah,
he knew he got it. I watched it in person
too many times and I was being very critical to
see I want to see what this. I knew he
could play. But man, he got he got it. He
definitely got it. I'm trying to think who was young
players Jason Tatum, Yeah, yeah, Jason. I've been watching him

(01:05:44):
since eighth grade, been competing against him, and I knew
that he would be who he was. But proud to
see him there. I don't know why I'm going blank, man,
because I'm a huge fan of a lot of guys
in the league, but both got to jump out. Those
guys shomped out, like right away. Is there anybody that
you have seen since you've come and going in the
NBA um that resembles your game at all? You think?

(01:06:05):
I think in transition, maybe maybe Ben Simmons and transition,
how you pushed the tempo. I'm talking about how he
pushed the tempo. I don't know. I ain't say about
everything else, but to me, it's a it's a big
guard and I love Ben, I mean, but how he
pushed the tempo I think. I don't I don't know
anymore big guards that are just really just pushing the
temple that it's beautiful. I love Ben Simmons too. I

(01:06:29):
don't give a fun what no one says about his shooting.
Once if if he can figure that out, I think
it's gonna be a real problem because everything for as
big as he is, his vision, his handle, his his
ability to get to the basket. I don't give him
this unmatched. His finesse side is a lot like pennies. Yeah,
what I meant, That's basically what I meant when it

(01:06:49):
came to there. But that's where it stopped. Okay, okay.
I know you listened to hip hop. I know you're
a big time music guy. Your name been name dropped
in a lot of songs, favorite songs. Have you've been
named dropped in? Man ship? Well, you know the home
of Yo Gotti. He didn't, he didn't drop my name.

(01:07:12):
That's what I got. I gotta drop Yo Gotti. But uh,
that would be that would be the top, because you know,
we was going to raise in the same hood and
kind of made it out of the mud. So I
gotta go with I gotta go. I gotta go with
Yo Gotti. Though if I know your got is from
the same hood, I ain't know that. Yeah, yeah, dope, dope. Hey,

(01:07:34):
back when you were playing who were you listening to
to get ready for games? I was listening to Jay
You know, Jay and Jay and Biggie and you know
them guys. Was the was them dudes back then though,
like still all still those those cats. And then of
course you know you were listening with West Coast it
was it was Pocket Snoop, and then East Coast it

(01:07:56):
was it was Jam, Big and Nasar. Those were the cats.
Um I love it. Oh man, wow, man, your top five,
you're top five. I think I think Jay, yeah, Big
Paul and everybody top five yea. And then I'm giving oslove.

(01:08:21):
I'm I'm giving and and I ain't mad at Snoop
bro Hell yeah. Longevity at exactly it means a lot,
it does. I know some cat came to me it
was like, what about l L He had more longevity
than anybody when it comes to l made it respect

(01:08:42):
us there but and I'm not saying that he's not,
but in my top five, that's that's that's it. That's solid. Now,
seeing that you're coaching, you gotta kind of stay hip
to ship because you you know, you're around a bunch
of teenagers who's artists or songs on repeat for you
right now. J Yeah, Drake really is on him and

(01:09:02):
him a little baby right now. Two artists that are
really on fire right now. Definitely on fire. Okay, Um,
we always asked this questions, so I guess and once
we asked this question, just before you answer, when you
answer the question, if you have any plugs on your answer,
then we have to use them. Okay, we need it,
We have to. Okay, who do you think should be

(01:09:24):
a guest on our show on All the Smoke? Man?
You guys have had so many people our first year, Babe,
we just gets you started, y'all rolling. Um, let's see.
I think that if I was watching the show, it
wouldn't be an athlete, it would be somebody else, because
like somebody on the level of of a Jay Z

(01:09:47):
or Will Smith. Yes, yes, yeah like that, Yes, yeah,
I think that your fans and plus me, I'm a fan.
I would love to see that and see you guys
kind of ask them questions on how they feel the
out sports. You know what they did? You know, I
think don't get either one of those guys on there,
that's amazing if you got if you gotta plug on

(01:10:09):
either sentence, who is in your eyes the most underrated player,
uh in the game right now? Most underrated player? I
think Drew Holiday. Everybody, everybody, everybody says Drew Holiday. That's insane.
The reason why I say that is because I watched

(01:10:30):
a lot of film on him. I know Patrick Beverley
is known as that dog, but he does what Patrick
Beverley does, which is a huge compliment. Quieter, quietly, quiet
he gets it and he's hard to guard. Dog, He's
hard to guard. I got another question. I want to
pick it back that who in your time was one
of the most underrated players that people are like, oh,

(01:10:52):
but you're like, no, that motherfuck go Let's see who
is Who's the most underrated player back then? Man, it's
so many guys. Man, I'm trying to think guys that
you were saying he was just okay, but he was
really nice. I don't even think people knew how nice
Nick Van Next, it was even though he was an
all star, Tricky Nikki was. They don't even mention him

(01:11:13):
when he comes to the top guards, but Tricky Nikki
was killer him in college. Hey, that dude right there, man,
he was serious. Yeah, it was. We all don't quarantine
right now. Um, besides working out what are you binge watching?
May you know what? For a minute, I watched Tiger
King Old everything, All Americans Everything. I watched everything on

(01:11:40):
Netflix that you can watch, Bro. I didn't watched the
documentary about the basketball players and Saying Quentiny that Katie produced.
I'm watched everything. I've watched everything on Netflix, Bro, I
watched it all. Yeah, every Yeah. What's your what's your
what's your favorite quarantine snack while you're binge watching? Man?

(01:12:00):
What's my favorite snack? Probably I'm probably on the Pringles Bro,
I'm a Pringles dude. Flavor Flavor barbecues fired him by
the sour cream and chides was fired too? Favorite? Uh?
Favorite retro sneaker, not including your own? Probably the Force one, Man.

(01:12:24):
I really like the Forced I'm a Force guy. I
like them retro forces. Man. Yeah. Yeah, Well we've come
to Jack's favorite segment. Like he said, he's been missing
out for a while. But I'm involved in this begging
segment too, So Jack, go ahead and beg for the
both of us. My brother, Well, this is my boy
a long time. I never asked him for nothing, but

(01:12:44):
I have to ask, either, is it possible that you
can make this happen for me? I needed either paras
signed shoes or signed jersey either or I needed for
the carib I gotta have you up in the crib. Man.
You got both, bro both, y'all got both. I got that.
That's man. I appreciate that. I say that, but I
need it for the carib I appreciate. Yeah, that's easy, man,
come on, Bro's easy. We appreciate that. Man. Hey, man, Well,

(01:13:08):
thank you for your time. Thank you for joining us today.
Good luck once we get commencing and get back on
the court to your upcoming seies. Like Jack said, me
and Jack gonna come through. I got a couple of
friends out in memph Is still I need to come visit,
so we're gonna come check a game out and uh
root for y'all. Man, But thank you for your time today. Now.
I appreciate y'all so much. May number little, May anything
y'all need for me, y'all got it and appreciate. And

(01:13:29):
just know if you got any questions on any guys,
you know I'm working at the AI game. You know
I got your players, So just let me know if
you need me to do anything for you. Got it,
got you now, appreciate you all. That might be a
violation anyway, that's a wrap special court Quarantine edition UH
with one of my favorite players, Jack's favorite player, Penny Hardaway.

(01:13:50):
We appreciate your time. You can catch this on Showtime Basketball,
YouTube and all platforms, streaming podcasts, all of them. See
you'all next week. It's something about how this place forms

(01:14:16):
a different kind of person. On my high school team,
we have five guys make the NBA. We had the
County rock at you mentioned French Shorty's County. People know
what it's about. It's the meta of basketball. There are

(01:14:37):
those who come before us, upon whose shoulders we stand
here for this area. You have to have tough skin.
The gym became the thank you eg County guys provide
buckets for America. Prince Georgian packs a lot of power,
a lot of character. It's nothing that you can do

(01:15:01):
to stop that competitive and we're pushing the community and
a culture full. There's this in the water. H This
life was all I ever wanted. I'm not leaving, not yet.

(01:15:22):
I was hoping you'll say that we gotta hit the streets,
make some money. Paple like us, Let's destroy people like him.
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