We’ve Got BEEF: 16 Crazy Stories from the ALL THE SMOKE Archives

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm an enforced you the claim.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Keep that same energy.

Speaker 1 (00:04):
My guy'll fuck you up to what. Let's go, who
you talking to? Laying for him to say that type
to me, it just th me for a lout. You
don't get out of here, he may swing on me.

Speaker 3 (00:14):
I I was right there.

Speaker 4 (00:15):
You got on national television and you call.

Speaker 5 (00:17):
Me, I'm gonna cush you out and I'm gonna talk
to I'm gonna speak my mind. Welcome to the show,
Mock Mood, I do a roath at this point, your
name is Mack Mood.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
I'm due a roath.

Speaker 5 (00:37):
Coincidentally, you know you're you're you're really starting to find
yourself off the court, playing better on the court, but
there's pushback from that from fans and media. Can you
speak to when you've kind of entrenched yourself and made
the name change and have that crossover, because there's been
historical athletes to have done the same, can you speak

(00:58):
to what that transition was like for you?

Speaker 6 (01:00):
Yeah, you're right, so many athletes before I have done that.
The most notable obvious is Muhammad Ali. People sometimes are
scared of what they don't know, but some people are
very aware of the significance of a name change. To

(01:21):
some people, they understand it to be a highly social
and political move that you made, because look, most of
our names are residues of slavery, no matter how we
want to avoid that.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Jackson, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 6 (01:40):
And so when you decide to take the initiative to
choose your own name, and it's not one of those
names for people that understand history, and they can get
offended by it, like, oh, oh, we lost this. He
has a mind of his own. He thinks for himself,

(02:01):
you know. So I think some of that came from that,
I really do, And a lot of it came from
the fact that, look, we have in every walk of life,
where the Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, atheists, whatever, you have people
that live a certain way. They claim to be one
thing and they don't totally practice. None of us are
perfect right, and some you can't tell right in terms

(02:27):
of But when you began to.

Speaker 7 (02:30):
Like a C.

Speaker 6 (02:31):
Green in the NBA, he showed his Christianity, but he
was also kind of shunned. He wasn't a part of
the country club because he was so strict with his beliefs.
So when you begin, when I began, when I first
accepted first accepted, it was, oh, hey, no problem. But
when they started to see me engaging people in conversation,

(02:51):
praying in the locker room, help. I got to pray
before the buzz go off. And now I'm taught to
have real conversation now, not just about some.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Not superficial superficial stuff.

Speaker 6 (03:03):
Now it becomes an issue, and it's like there's this
sense that I don't want him to infect other people, right,
And I.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Really felt that. I really felt that from.

Speaker 6 (03:15):
The bottom of my heart, and it ended up coming out.
What's his name, Mike Evans, assistant coach, went to the
point of asking someone behind my back about his Lamb
stuff that he's been saying. And he came to and
he said, my mood I talked to religious. He said,
you don't have to be praying. No, So he figured,
I ain't know. I'm just not a Muslim. It's not serious.

(03:38):
But I read and I ended up explaining to him.
I said, listen, that's not correct, and I gave him
some verses in the Kurd and I said, Mike, from
here on out, man, if you got a question, you
don't have to sneak behind my back to go ask
somebody and then see if I'm practicing my religion, right,
I said, Come, I ask me. I said, I don't
have no problem telling you the truth. And I said,
and I'm gonna tell you when I tell you some
go look it up because I want That's how my

(03:59):
game a person's trust.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Right.

Speaker 6 (04:01):
The more I show you something, you find.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
It for yourself. You listen a little bit more. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (04:06):
So in the doc it became national attention in ninety
six when you decided not to stand for the national anthem.
But you had been doing it what four to six months,
I think you said in the dock before that when
that kind of hit the national media. And we're at
a time where obviously today something hits we can instantly

(04:26):
give our side the story, defend whatever we're not in
that time in nineteen ninety six, How did your life change?

Speaker 6 (04:32):
It was pretty immediate the fallback. I remember after doing
that that interview, after shoot around, I'm going home. We
have a game against Shaquille O'Neal Orlando. And the reason
I say that, man, I'm these are conversations we have
all the time, right on the bus, on the plane,

(04:54):
We're having them, and so I didn't really think anything
of it. I'm just speaking what I believe to be true.
But I knew that it was serious when even more so,
I knew it was serious at the shoot around, but
I knew it was even extra serious when Bernie called
me to his office when I got to the arena
and he said, well, he said, the NBA wants to
suspend you if if you don't stand, What do you say,

(05:18):
said Bernie, I'm not standing. He said, well, some people
want to call you, so get him on the phone.
And so we're now talking. I wish I could remember
who it was. And as we were talking, they said
they started talking to me, trying to convince me. I said, listen, man,
I'm not going to stand. I said, so you do
what you gotta do, and I'll do what I have
to do. And I'm so green man, Literally, I've never

(05:39):
been suspended in my life. I'm thinking it's going to
take an active legislation. I'm gonna be able to go
play for a few weeks. And then they got to
go through a board and a process and boom, and
I'm like, can I go put my stuff on, man
and go play? He said no, I said, I'm suspended now.
He said, yeah, I said, well, can I get dressed
and go into the arena and support the team? He

(06:00):
says no. I said, hunh. He said no, they don't
want you on the premises. Have a go. So I
walked out, went down, said what I had to say
to the teammates and they look and I drove home.
Before I knew it, man, it was global. It was
all over the news. Then I got on the phone
with some people that I knew, a mentor of mine,

(06:21):
and we talked. And that's the only reason only reason
I came back the next day or whenever it was
the next game, is because the example that he gave
me about something that the Prophet did in light of
a situation when there's a Jewish funeral possession passing by
and they were war at the time, and the Prophet
stood up and his companions like, hey were fighting them,

(06:42):
and they fighting us. We're killing each other. He said,
what are you standing? He said, I'm not standing because
they gave. I'm not standing for their cause. I'm standing
because God gave a life and he took a life.
He said, so you can stand, and it not be
for what America and his brutality.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
And it's imperially stick ways.

Speaker 6 (07:00):
And represent you could be standing for those who are pressed,
who are the victims, and you could be making prayer.
And I was mad at him when he told me
that in a way because the pride in me didn't
But he made so much sense, and I like the pride.
If you make sense, respect it.

Speaker 4 (07:20):
Yeah, I.

Speaker 6 (07:24):
Mean I was furious, you know. And I said, because
I knew what the media would say, you're gonna and
so when I came back, it was very old. So
you made a Comprehence said, listen, man, as a Muslim,
as a human being, we make a decision. But if
we see something better, we do that, I said. But
don't make no mistake. I said, I still feel the
same way that my position hasn't changed. And I had

(07:46):
to keep beating that to him and let him know
I'm not going to backpedal. I'm not gonna become less
outspoken as a result of this. We can go back
to the same process if you're going to and kick
me out again, no problem, you know. And and so
that's just been my position. And is this my position, brother,
because I said to myself years ago, and I keep

(08:08):
repeating this, and we all have to as athletes. How
many times you wake up, you got to motivate your
remind yourself taught, And I said, you know what my
mission is to live and die with a free conscience
and a free soul.

Speaker 5 (08:20):
Whether people like it or not, can't put a price
on that. Isaiah Thomas, thank you for that time.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Man.

Speaker 5 (08:33):
We had Magic on the show at the end of
December and your name came up and Magic was talking
about what you and him went through and how you
guys were able to sit down and patch it up,
which is beautiful, by the way, Thank you. Everyone was
big fans of that. But he also said he would

(08:54):
like to see you and Mike patch it up. You
called me after that and we had a conversation on
the phone about what was going to care to share
any of that?

Speaker 8 (09:04):
Man.

Speaker 4 (09:04):
You know, I just want some people to be honest.

Speaker 9 (09:07):
I got I got no problem sitting down talking with
anybody right.

Speaker 4 (09:11):
And as you can see, you know, I I'm.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
The open book.

Speaker 9 (09:16):
You know, I live with love, peace, truth, you know, honesty, courage,
I'm you know, I stand on my square.

Speaker 4 (09:24):
I'm upright.

Speaker 9 (09:25):
You know I'm independent and I sit in any chair
and I talk to anybody right.

Speaker 4 (09:30):
But some people don't.

Speaker 9 (09:31):
They ain't been telling the truth right now, anywhere, anytime publicly.
I don't don't call me behind the scenes apologizing or
asking your friends to apologize. Right, you got on national
television and you call me an asshole, and then you

(09:53):
said you hated me.

Speaker 4 (09:55):
You said that on national television.

Speaker 9 (09:59):
Now, if you didn't mean it, get on national television,
say that and apologize for it. Now, if you meant it,
let it ride as it is. But so I called
you in that same day. You know who I call,
I call Magic Johnson. Magic was on the plane. There

(10:22):
was shooting commercial in Atlanta. Him, Sam Jackson, everybody else.
We were standing in the Four Seasons Hotel. We missed
each other, right because he said he had to go,
So he on the plane, right. I called him up.
Magic didn't mention Michael Jordan. All right, So I'm still waiting.

(10:45):
You know, everybody say this stuff publicly. Right, Hey, I'm
gonna do this. I'm gonna do this.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
All right.

Speaker 9 (10:49):
Well, I'm the type of guy I sit here, I
talked to you, I talk to you. It ain't a
person in this United States of America that I'm not
willing to sit down and have a conversation with and
break bread with. But if you line and throwing stones
from behind the scenes, okay, that's you. But if you

(11:14):
honest and you upright on your square, I'm willing to
deal with.

Speaker 4 (11:19):
Yeah, you know, so that's all I know. Now where
do we go from here?

Speaker 5 (11:30):
I mean you told me something. I mean, you have
family that had stayed with him, and say, at one point.

Speaker 9 (11:33):
Absolutely eight when when Jordan first came to Chicago. First
of all, we were fans of his and to some
extent still fans of his. My family, his family not

(11:56):
only did they socialize, ain't out But as I said,
you know, I.

Speaker 4 (12:05):
I had a little nephew that lived.

Speaker 9 (12:06):
With him, and and everybody's still cool, right, Ain't no,
ain't no hate for Jordan. We just want some realness, right,
just you know, like I said, you you got on
national television and ain't nobody, ain't nobody nowhere has ever
got on national television and called me an asshole and

(12:31):
then publicly said you hate me. I ain't heard that
from you. I ain't heard that from you. I ain't
heard that from no NBA player. And so I'm and
by the way, all them years that you supposedly hated me.
You voted for me to be the president of your union.

Speaker 10 (12:52):
Yeah, you know, I've seen a lot of pictures of
All Star games and y'all laughing and joke and it
didn't look like hate.

Speaker 6 (12:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (12:58):
I'm just saying, like, you know, if if that you
know now now maybe you felt like that privately and
I didn't know, but now that I do know. And
by the way, if you didn't meet it that way,
then publicly say it. Don't privately say it. You know, magic,

(13:18):
we don't need a private conversation. This man did this
on national television internationally. I have to answer this question
right in every interview that I sit down and do
you asking me this question right? So now now I'm
the one who's looking like, oh, why are you talking
about Jordan?

Speaker 4 (13:39):
Why are you saying it? When you to put that
out there?

Speaker 9 (13:43):
And now you at home or on your golf course
or doing whatever you do, And now I got to
answer this BS question. So if you mad enough, and
you and you and you, if you meant it, leave
it as it is. But if you didn't mean it,
then come out and clean it up the same way

(14:03):
it came out, same way it came out with the
same intensity.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
You gotta respect that though.

Speaker 4 (14:08):
That's why I say that.

Speaker 10 (14:10):
I mean because if the shoe was on the foot,
I know I've been disrespected a lot of if somebody
disrespected me on TV during the game, but also at
the end of the game, they decided. You know what,
I remember, I said that, let me clear this up
or we get off air. I gotta respect that. I
can't hold it. I can't be mad at him no
more because he corrected himself.

Speaker 9 (14:26):
Now you you you said Magic and I sat down
and and squashed whatever we.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Had publicly publicly.

Speaker 9 (14:34):
Magic Johnson apologized. He said, I'm sorry if I hurt you.
When I hurt you, I didn't mean that. I'm good
with that. Yeah, I gotta accept that and we move on.
But if you're gonna let this linger out here in
this basketball world, and you got everybody else talking, but

(14:57):
you ain't saying nothing now, ifew mins.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
To stand on it.

Speaker 4 (15:01):
Stand on it. But if you didn't mean it, clean
it up.

Speaker 5 (15:06):
You mentioned, uh, you know, obviously, there there's no secret
that you and Magic were best to friends at one point.
And what did it mean to you, to you guys
to be able to sit down and clear that air
for you.

Speaker 9 (15:18):
It meant a lot, not only to me, but we
didn't know, and I didn't know how much it would mean.

Speaker 4 (15:25):
To all of us, to the world.

Speaker 9 (15:26):
I had no idea, you know, because when you when
you're going through that, you're just thinking about yourself. You're
not thinking about really how it's affecting other people. And
I just had the same thing happened with Karl Ma
Malone and I. Right, and by way, thank you Kenyon,
love you sacking off strong, But you don't realize what

(15:50):
the other person is carrying. Right, you're feeling you know
yourself and your grief and you're herd right, But the
other person who's carrying a guilt, when you have the
opportunity and you can relieve them of that, not knowing

(16:12):
that that's how much they carrying. Right that that that
was a powerful moment not only for he and I,
but it was a powerful moment for the world, which
we didn't know. So it's like two moments we've had
that we didn't realize what we was really doing that
ended up changing a lot of stuff. Like when he
and I like first hugged and kissed, right ah, oh,

(16:36):
you know what they It's like, I can't I can't
meet my brother and give him a handshake. Whenever I
met family, it was always an embrace, right when we
did that in the eighties, two men, right, black masculinity,
you know, and being called in the question you're not

(16:56):
supposed to you know, you're supposed to have this, you
know this off it's about you and all this stuff. Well,
when we broke down that barrier, we didn't realize what
we had really done. Now when we saw each other today,
first thing we did we hug you.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
You can't wait to hug you when I see you? Yeah,
let me.

Speaker 9 (17:14):
And then then then we hugged for men because I
wanted to feel you, right, And but back then that
was so controversial. Right now, us coming together forgiven compassion, love, friendship, right,

(17:35):
it's another powerful moment. Not knowing that that's what we
were doing, right, you know. So, And I'm glad that
he and I got to share that.

Speaker 5 (17:44):
I mean, you mentioned and obviously this is going to
come up to you mentioned you got a chance to
sit down with Carl at this last All Star in Utah.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
What did you know? How did that go? Man?

Speaker 4 (17:54):
For years, man, I wanted to do something to Carl Man.

Speaker 5 (17:57):
You know, you mentioned some people might have met Aymark
told this story about how he was watching that game
on TV when he was a youngster and got him
back for you.

Speaker 4 (18:06):
Yeah, and I'm saying thank you.

Speaker 5 (18:08):
Yeah, what I'm saying, so you said thank you for
people might another car.

Speaker 9 (18:11):
But let me but let me say, let me say
why I said thank you, and then let me let
me go further with that, because for years, that dude
put a mark on me man, And and for years
I was like, I'm gonna get my mark back. You know,

(18:32):
you put a scar on me, and get my scar back,
and I get my scar back.

Speaker 4 (18:36):
We even but that, you know, my straight up but.

Speaker 9 (18:53):
And and so fast forward, right, you know, I'm carrying
this around for years, for years, last dance come out
and and you know, every you know, the narrative was,
you know, everybody hated Isaiah. You know, nobody wanted him around,

(19:13):
nobody wanted to be a part of it so far.
So so that was what's being played. So now on
the background, I'm getting calls from everybody. I'm getting calls
from the shock hit the Chicago Bulls team teammates. People
in the Chicago Bulls front office. I'm getting calls from
people who was on the Dream Team saying.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Hey man, that ain't me.

Speaker 4 (19:34):
You know how I feel about you?

Speaker 1 (19:35):
Okay? Cool?

Speaker 4 (19:38):
They don't get called from Carl.

Speaker 9 (19:42):
And I'm like, and he say, hey man, I and
this was years ago, say hey man, I just want
to tell you, like, you know, I hear all this
stuff about the Dream Team.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
You know, I car talk.

Speaker 9 (19:55):
I'm a man, I'm a real man. I don't you know.
I ain't hiding behind nothing. And you know I didn't
have nothing to do with that. You're not making a
team as a matter of fact. You know, I'm speaking
for Stockton. Then I we and he said this on camera.
He said, if there was a secret meeting me and
Stocked and wasn't a part of those secret meeting trying

(20:16):
to keep you off the team, that wasn't us. So
now you know my next question is, you know, so man,
why you hit me like that? And this is what
I have to respect and and Kenyon, I hope you
can respect this too, brother, because and you know, and
all my people in Chicago and in Detroit everywhere, I

(20:38):
hope y'all can respect this about Karl Malung because what
he said was, Hey, look, I I meant to hit you.
That's how we played. You come down the lane, you
gonna you're gonna get some physicality. So I meant to
do it, he said. But I but I didn't mean
to do that. And I apologize because I didn't mean

(21:03):
to do that. Hey, I have to accept that, you
know what I mean? Because that now, if he would
have been like, I'm a tough guy. You know, that's
how we play, and yeah, I'm gona lay you, oyh
blah blah blah. But at the same time, now, now
he gets emotional and he started crying. And you know

(21:24):
when people start crying, Now you crying. Yeah, So you
never know what people dealing with, bro. Yeah, And so
I was only looking at it from my point of view.
I never knew the type of guilt that he was
walking around carrying. And so by me saying, hey man,

(21:44):
it's okay, I love you brother, were good man, he said,
you just took the whole weight off my shoulder. Now,
I never knew he was walking around with weight. I
just thought he was walking around like, yeah, I'm a
tough dude. Look what I did to you, and and
somebody else I'm gonna do but that ain't the way
he was thinking. And when he said, yeah, I meant
to hit you, but I didn't mean to do that. Now,

(22:06):
that last part I got accept right, and that's you
know that that was real, So I respect that.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
Welcome to the show Byron Scott so b.

Speaker 5 (22:25):
You were Stacks coach his rookie season, and from what
I've heard over the years, there was a little bit.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Of funk at some point.

Speaker 5 (22:32):
What was the what was what was what was the
I mean, we're here on all the smoke and so
y'all are good now, but what was what was the fun?
I'm gonna start with you, Jack, what was the disconnection
you think will coach at some point.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Your rookie year?

Speaker 10 (22:43):
Well, for me, you know, first, if I said anything
burning past, I've finished you.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
I apologize. I've grown up. I'm a man now.

Speaker 10 (22:51):
But at the time, I was hurt because I just
came back out the rookie All Star Game and I
just fought to get into the league, you know, three
four years, you know, going through overseas and stuff, and
when I came back from All Star, I just didn't play.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
And I never understood why. We never had a conversation
about it.

Speaker 10 (23:08):
I never understood why, and you know, not not understanding
and being a young guy that was working to get
to the NBA. Then I make the Rookie All Star
Game when I first get in, and now I come
back and I'm just not playing from starting, like I
didn't know what to think.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
You know, I'm young, so for for for a long.

Speaker 10 (23:24):
Time I helped, So I held some hate for you
because I felt like, damn, I never got an explanation,
like when I when he gave me the opportunity, like
I praised him because this he gives He's giving me
a chance to start my first game in the NBA,
like I started my like that gave you know, and
you know how I showed you that I appreciated that,
you know what I'm saying, But then to not play

(23:44):
when I came back. I never understood why, and I
never got a chance to ask you.

Speaker 11 (23:48):
Why, and kind of like what you just said, you know, Jack,
anything I did back in those days, I apologized as well,
because I've grown up and I was I was a
head coach, you know what I'm saying, And this how
this whole thing started from the get go, just how
he made the team.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
We had we had open runs.

Speaker 11 (24:06):
My first year's coaching Jersey, Right, how old are you
at this point, thirty six?

Speaker 1 (24:10):
I wouldn't. Yeah, exactly, I'm thirty six.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
I'm young.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, I still got player. I still got player of mentality.
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 11 (24:18):
Man, So we got open runs and I don't know
if jack remember ASKI right after two days. I said, Eh,
who the hell is that? He said, oh, that's Stephen Jackson.
I said, where he come from?

Speaker 1 (24:37):
Supposed to be there? I've never seen it.

Speaker 11 (24:38):
He wasn't supposed to be at the runs. The list
of names I had, his name went on there. So
I'm like, well, where hell they come from? He said, oh,
well he came out of high school. It didn't work out.
I think Phoenix or somebody overseas.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (24:49):
So I said, we'll invite him back. You know, he
keeps coming back. I said, man, we got to bring
him the camp. He was like, you serious? I said, hell, yeah,
bring him the camp. He started the first game, my
first evident invite from pick up an invite from pickup
games to an invite to start in the first game.
Now we had a bunch of injuries, too. We had

(25:11):
a bunch of guys in the game. Yeah, we have
a bunch of guys that hurt. And not taking anything
away from Jack because he started the first game and
once we came back from the All Star break, those
guys are getting healthy.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
Johnny Newman.

Speaker 10 (25:22):
Yes, but as a youngster, you know how don't understand that,
and you know, as a young coach what I should
have done.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Explain exactly what I should have done.

Speaker 11 (25:32):
Jackets took you to the side after they all start breaking, said,
look you did. You've done a hell of a job.
You've been playing the treatment well. But I got to
see these guys play because when I was in vent
I understood it.

Speaker 12 (25:41):
You know.

Speaker 4 (25:42):

Speaker 11 (25:42):
I gotta because I gotta make changes. I got to
figure out who's gonna be here the next year and.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Who's because those are making money too, and they're making
a rookie. We had Jim McClain too.

Speaker 11 (25:51):
Yeah, yeah, man, we had so many We have so
many guys. And it wasn't that Rod Thorn, who was
our president of basketball operation, told me you got to
play these guys. I just knew I had to play.
I got to see what we got for next year.
I got to see who I got to get the
hell out of here.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
Kendall Gill came in. It was kenyr first year, Kenya's
first year. Yep, kend O Gil came in.

Speaker 11 (26:11):
When I had my season meeting with everybody, and you know,
like I said, I should have approached Jacker talk because
he was nineteen twenty years old, you know, so when
he wasn't playing, you know, he would come to practice
and he was pissed and I was still there.

Speaker 10 (26:23):
You remember my when I first got there, I went
to I went to burn like a little kid when
because I first got that my grandfather had I I
was a.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
Kid, bro I was still a kid. Yeah.

Speaker 11 (26:32):
So I mean, you know, as much as you say,
you know things, I could have handled it about a
lot better. But I was youngest shit too, you know
what I'm saying. I was my first year coach, thirty
six years old. As a head.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
That was your first year. That was my first year.
That was so I looked back on it and I said.

Speaker 11 (26:49):
Man, you know what I should have did, which I
did later on because you learn from your mistakes, is
that I should have took Jack to the side and
said listen, this is what's going on.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
I got to find out.

Speaker 11 (26:59):
So you just keep one of your things, keep practicing,
keep doing what you're doing, coming to practice with a
great attitude. And if I would explain that to him
shut down, it would have been a lot different. But
he shut down, and Kenyon was the rookie. King was like,
I got him, coach, I got it. And we had
one practice where he really shut down. I said, Jack,
just just go on the locker room, get.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
Him. And Steph was like this step you and Stephan King,
Steph and Keing, Yeah, oh yeah, button head.

Speaker 11 (27:31):
So so Kenyon was Keny was trying to be the
calm one, and you know ken ain't to calm. He
trying to be the colm one and keep everybody together.
And he was like, I got him, I got I
got Jack.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
Coach.

Speaker 11 (27:41):
I said, okay, So that that particular day when I
just looked at Jack, I said, Jack, good ship, don't
get out of here. And I looked at King. He
just looked at me, did like this, And I didn't
know I be a profession of them. So it was
it was it was a two way street. And uh,
like you said, we both goten older.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
We're both grown.

Speaker 11 (27:59):
You know, Like I said, my biggest mistake was I
wish I could go back and say, let me take
him to the side and explain the situation.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
And I still hold that appreciation.

Speaker 10 (28:08):
Nothing has changed with you giving me the opportunity when
nobody else did and allowing me to start my first
NBA game, So I will forever appreciate you for that.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
Welcome to the show, DeAndre Jordan. Man, I was the
first trade.

Speaker 5 (28:26):
By the way, let's back up and talk about why
I was the first trade. That's what I wanted to
say earlier.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
I don't remember that. I think remembers that moment.

Speaker 5 (28:34):
But you were sitting and you were sitting right next
to me when all the ship went down. I was like, man,
please stop because he was picking on me. Please because
he was picking on me over some bullshit, like I
took two We played the Warriors, I think right, but
we had played the Warriors, were watching the Warriors, and
I took two shots the whole game. And he started
like every shot he reround and then I made I

(28:56):
was over to you should have passed here, you should
have did this was like, hold on, doc, I took
two shots the whole fun game play defense all the time,
other peoples playing like like what, like I don't mind
you doing it, but you're doing too much. And then
he started talking back to me, and I started talking
back to them. So when I got up.

Speaker 13 (29:10):
And it's very uncharacteristic of Matt to ever talk back
to the coach, I just want to let everybody know
that this is a real good guy. He's coachable, don't
say shit, just kind of put his head down at work.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
So this is people that I do.

Speaker 5 (29:23):
I grind, Yeah, I mean, I don't talk shit back
to no coach, but I just felt like he was
on me a little x too much.

Speaker 4 (29:28):
So I get up. In the whole room was like
like kind of like they didn't know what was going on.

Speaker 5 (29:33):
So I get up and me and DJ are on
the far wall, and then to walk out, you got
to go past the coaches t lou and docking them.
And when I got up, DJ Matt man, please don't man,
don't stop. Matt, don't Matt stop. So I get up
and everyone's scared as fuck. They'll know what I'm gonna do,
because I really don't know what I'm gonna do.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
If nobody want to get in front of means like
he may swing on me, so let me hear.

Speaker 5 (29:55):
So I don't know if I'm gonna take off on
Doctor just leaves, so I look and I look at
him and I kind of shake my head and he's
kind of like, so I say, fucking, I just go
out and I'm about to go. I'm about to just
say fucking and take my shit off and go home.
I'm like, now, fucking, I can't let my teammates. This
as close as the playoffs, I want to say, I
can't let my teammates down. So I just sit in
there and I can see the field, so you can
see the courts from the locker room. So when they

(30:16):
come back, when they go out, don't watch a film.
We all go out to stretch. I'm like, fucking I
go back out there.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
And I'm I'm the starting three.

Speaker 14 (30:24):
We're stretching.

Speaker 5 (30:27):
And Doc tells me to come flip my jersey to white.
Oh and when I tell you, Bro, I wanted to
cuss his motherfucking ass out that day.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
But this is a whole, This is a two day process.

Speaker 5 (30:39):
DJ I cussed him out the next day a shoot
around when we played Portland and we had an early game.
So anyway, so Doc tells me to take my shit off,
and I look at him and just kind of so
I took my ship off and I threw my jersey.
I'm like, I was like, I'm not flipping my shit.
These motherfuckers know what team I'm on. And when I
tell you, I went out there and bullied the whole practice,

(31:00):
bullied everybody.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
Y'all ever seen for anybody?

Speaker 15 (31:03):
Maybe you could put a clip up the longest yard, yes,
the way Michael, everyone was playing basketball.

Speaker 14 (31:11):
I oh shit, I was like, man, we're good, right.

Speaker 4 (31:17):
So it fucked me up.

Speaker 5 (31:19):
I think I was in trouble for smoke and I
started smoking again that night, didn't sleep all night. It
killed me that I didn't say nothing or jump on Doc.
So the next day we have an early shoot around
and I just go in on him, go in on him,
and in front of everyone. We brought it in and
I just cussed his ass out. We cussed each other out.
We went through shoot around for a little bit. Then
we were back in the locker room and I was

(31:40):
trying to fuck Dock up and then Mike Brod or
Mike Woodson got in the middle of it. I told
fuck you what do y'all fuck you up to? We
all so and then finally that just me and Doc
got in his office and I made sure everyone else
got out. I locked the door and we just had
a real conversation. And it was his tone that changed
a little bit. But I think he was ready. Yeah,
it was ready. And then everyone was like listening on

(32:00):
the door and anyway I saw I say all that
to say after we lost to Houston, I was traded.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
At twelve oh one. That's where.

Speaker 5 (32:10):
That's why I told the story. I was traded at
twelve o one or Lance Stevenson, Welcome to the show,
Will Smith. Nearly six months removed from your situation. What
have you learned about yourself from that Oscar night?

Speaker 1 (32:32):
That that was? That was a horrific night, man, That
was that was a horrific night to you for me? Yeah, yeah,
I mean all the real ones.

Speaker 10 (32:43):
Who understood I'm going to stand up for my wife
whether I'm right or wrong in any place. So I
understood that I don't care what you say. Nobody can't
make me think that anything you did was wrong.

Speaker 16 (32:53):
Let me tell you one of the uh the words,
because I was right there and I get home and
my nephew, uh nine years old.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
His name is Dom and he is the sweetest kid
in the world. You know. Him and my sister live
with me.

Speaker 16 (33:12):
And I'm sitting we got these bean bags in the kitchen.
I'm sitting in the kitchen. He's sitting between my leg
and he's holding the oscar and he goes, why you
hit that man, Uncle Will? And I was like, and
it's like, you know, I'm gonna be crying. Somebody got
a tissue and.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
It was I got one.

Speaker 16 (33:36):
I got one, And it was like, sa yea, I
knew y'all was gonna have me right.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
You can't explain it to him.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
He stayed up late waiting for you, waiting.

Speaker 14 (33:47):
For Uncle Will, you know.

Speaker 16 (33:49):
And it was like, you know, I can, I can
do all the justifications for ever.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
He won't understands.

Speaker 6 (33:55):
He can't.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
You know, our brother.

Speaker 5 (34:06):
King time you talked to us about the Michigan experience,
because it was historical from a standpoint of us looking
up to y'all the streets, loving y'all, but the pushback
that you guys got from mainstream media the school after
y'all did so much for them and now, I mean,
it makes makes us feel good when you hear you
know they're starting to accept y'all back because the ship

(34:28):
was bullshit to begin with. But talk to us about
that journey, that experience, because I mean, you were at
the top of the top at times, and even when
you're at the top, probably emotionally you felt like you
was at the bottom because all the bullshit y'all.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Was facing correct and you ready for this.

Speaker 17 (34:39):
And again, like I have no ill will to my
Michigan experience, I said, once Juwan got the job, Yeah,
I could go to a game my brother standing on
the sideline, suited and booted. Even if they don't acknowledge us,
they got to acknowledge us because my brother standing around.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 17 (34:56):
But to be honest with you, to answer that question,
they still don't acknowledge us to this day, to.

Speaker 10 (35:04):
This day's not going back up.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
I would just add, I got season tickets looking up now.

Speaker 5 (35:11):
Motherfucker's still out up there, huh, to this day, this.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
Week that's that's that's week two.

Speaker 10 (35:19):
Because just like he said, I just told him, I
don't remember when I stopped my junior year in high
school ninety five.

Speaker 1 (35:25):
We ball hads big shurance blackside because of y'all.

Speaker 10 (35:29):
So we know what the influence so so for y'all
not to be accepted there, that kind of just said.
It says a lot about the university to people like
us to this day.

Speaker 17 (35:37):
Deontay Walder, I got season tickets. I go to the
games to represent from my brother. I ain't go back
when see Webb got his band and then like how
we weren't acknowledged from when I left until like twenty
twenty twenty eighteen, a twenty year period. I ain't go

(36:01):
back to ann Arbor but like once one time until Juwan.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Got the job.

Speaker 17 (36:08):
That's when I let it go. But they still ain't
like acknowledging us. They can the Fab five numbers ain't
even retire at Michigan.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
That's crazy.

Speaker 17 (36:19):
That's crazy right now, Like I was just watching a
kid shout to Robbie Humble, a kid to go to Purdue.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
I was watching the.

Speaker 17 (36:28):
Game like he regards never retired, right, And so I
had to ignore it, Matt.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
I had to ignore it, Jack, I had to just
let it go. How hard? How hard is that though?

Speaker 10 (36:41):
Because it's like like that's some of your best years
of your life, the best, you know what I'm saying
the best and then some of them and them bonds
that y'all built, you know what I'm saying, they gonna
last forever.

Speaker 17 (36:53):
And what pisses me off is that my Texas brothers
don't get their true salute. Yeah, Like I love Ray
and Jimmy, and I ride for them on and off
the camera.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
They'll tell you.

Speaker 17 (37:09):
And I hate that Ray Jackson sacrificed so much to
be a part of our team. And I know he
was purposely kept out of the NBA at that time,
really purposely. He wanted MVP of the CBA and still
didn't get.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
In the league. Sure it did, Sure did.

Speaker 17 (37:29):
That's the equivalent of y'all are winning the MVP of
like the G League or whatever. The man mind he
was balling, Yeah, he was balling. He deserved the chance
to play. Same with Jimmy, and so I hate now
that the nil rules exist. Imagine if they could have
got bred, then we had hirachis that we was rocking
long short black shoes. Imagine if we got bread off

(37:51):
of every pair of black socks to get.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
Sold, we would have had that. We would have had
that body wasn't doing that, We would have had.

Speaker 17 (38:01):
That and so I hate that for them because Ray,
in particular, he sacrificed the most. Ray was faster than us,
He's more athletic than us. Like I used to sit
back and marvel at him, like like you should want
to tax your stock.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
In fact, me and him had this confidence.

Speaker 17 (38:23):
We were He'll tell you we're in South quad at
u of M and he wasn't playing.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
I had talks with Ray, like.

Speaker 17 (38:31):
God, you might need to think about transfer.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
He was that good. He gave up that much.

Speaker 17 (38:40):
And so I hate for them not to get their
love right because they deserve it so much.

Speaker 5 (38:49):
I mean, obviously we were touching on the lows, but
talk about some of the highs. And in the culture,
how you guys were able to, you know, intermix the
culture of hip hop and sports at such a young age,
Like you leave that too and Alan iverson when he
gets to the NBA, But you guys were able to
do it as teenagers.

Speaker 17 (39:06):
Like Magic and Bird like helped revolutionize the NBA for
the eighties, right, Like, so that's the league I ended
up watching. And then like Jordan and Isaiah and Hakeem
and all of these guys get drafted in the eighties.
So like they needed to turn around the image of
the NBA. So they weren't really like politically driven as

(39:27):
the athletes before them, the Muhammad Ali's, Kareem Abdul Jabbar,
Bill Russell. They weren't as politically driven. But I looked
up to UNLV's team, Anderson Hunt went to my high school,
you know, to find a four MVP of nineteen ninety
play with LJ and Stacey aug He went to my
high school. Derrick Coleman was when he was at Syracuse.

(39:51):
Big John when he was at Georgetown. Big John actually
reached out to us because that was a time where
he was opposing the prop forty eight rules and the
game would start, they tossed the ball up in Big
John to walk off. Well, he was in contact with
us about doing it too. A lot of people don't
realize that and us just being ourselves and realized like.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
This one. I know, this sounds crazy. This is when rap.

Speaker 17 (40:23):
Music wasn't accepted by sports, Like when I was in
high school, using the layout line and stuff like, they
weren't playing rat I remember I.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
Was the DJ. I used to bring the tapes.

Speaker 17 (40:36):
You had to put the little tissue at the top
of the tape like started right here because when I
was in high school, Southwestern Carris One had a song
called south Bronx and we were Southwest were like Southwest,
South Southwest all BMF being their first coats on. It
was crazy, it was it was nuts, you know. And
they purposely come in middle of the first quarter, just

(40:59):
fifty of them, white, first full list, three quarters, truck,
jewels everything.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
They stopped the game. So that is where it came
from for me.

Speaker 17 (41:08):
Like I was playing, like it's almost like above the rim,
like I was playing. Yeah, so it was like slang
crack rocker got a wicked jump shut.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
So it was like I was hooping.

Speaker 17 (41:21):
They was hustling, and like Detroit was on fire at
that time. Pistons won back to backs, Dasmin won the
Heist Man, the Tigers won the World Series. We were
the Fab five, so it was a great time to
be us. But I realized I personally we arrived. I
went to Cameo Summer Jam early nineties and it was

(41:43):
all of the top artists. And again this is before
sports embraced rap. You used to hear who there it is,
and what's my guy name? This is how Mantel Jeorge. Yeah, yeah,
those are the only songs they played. Those are the
only songs they played. And I'll never forget.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
Going to Will Smith. Yeah yeah, sure. Parents just don't understand.

Speaker 17 (42:07):
And I went to Cameo summer Jam after our freshman
year and this one Hammer was the number one artists
in the world and the Pistons were the first team
to adopt you can't touch this. That's what brought rap
to the NBA, which brought it to sports. And I
remember there was so many artists TC, Deon Sanders was there,

(42:28):
also all the Bears too, shore E Forty Spice One,
Pete Rock, Ceo Smooths, everybody, everybody, MC light, It was everybody.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
And I was like trying to.

Speaker 17 (42:39):
Get in a little bit, you know how we do
it whatever, strolling up. Then Louis Barrell Hammer Brothers.

Speaker 18 (42:44):
Like man, like, yeah, let me because Hammer was like
a hundred of them every show. He then got a
hundred of them, so.

Speaker 17 (42:56):
I got a chance to like and before I knew it,
I was up on the stage and then during the
intermissions of the show is like a basketball court and
I was around my favorite artist. They go LLL, they
go run, DMC, they go EPMD Naughty by Nation and
they knew who I was.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
I was like, Yo, this is.

Speaker 17 (43:15):
Crazy, and I ended up being friends with them. E
pm D gave me a skyt pager.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
You know what.

Speaker 17 (43:21):
I used to go to East Iceland when I was
in college. There's a picture of me online when I
got a Hurricane shirt on. I'm holding up a forty
ounce like I was at I was at the EPMD
studio when I took that picture. So that's when I
felt like a ride.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, that's when I.

Speaker 17 (43:35):
Felt like the Five five a arride because the culture
embraced us, because mainstream media didn't like us. So I
look back at it now, they look at it like,
oh with the Fab five. It's kind of like when
I look at the career Muhammad Ali, like when he
died or when he got Parkinson's seemed like he got embraced.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
That's what happened when he couldn't That's that's crazy. That's
my idol.

Speaker 10 (43:56):
I said it to somebody when he couldn't talk, that's
when they gave him his love.

Speaker 17 (44:00):
Like it's an iconic moment that he lit the torch
in Atlanta. But that's one of my least favorite Muhammad
Ali moments because that was not his biggest, that was
not his best. We met him when we were in college.
We went to his room, we did magic tricks for us.
He gave us confidence, like don't let nobody muzzle y'all voices,
or that he moved to Michigan. I got a chance

(44:21):
to meet him a lot, and so we as athletes
and as black people came a long way to expressing ourselves.
And he was a trailblazer for that. Dion Sanders was
another trailblazer for that. Anytime you tell yourself you great
before they tell you you great, they don't.

Speaker 5 (44:40):
Like that, especially when you write, especially when.

Speaker 17 (44:45):
Exactly so it went down like that, What part did
you pay in the swag?

Speaker 10 (44:50):
Like I know everybody had their own input, the bagging
shorts of shoes you played.

Speaker 17 (44:55):
It's hard for me to like say it without people
thinking I'm trying to make.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
It about me. But you was the fashionable one though
I was the one that cared. I cared more, that's all.

Speaker 17 (45:10):
Juwan didn't. Jawan was like, no, I'm trying to ball.
Johan's a professional. Juan was always ten years older than us.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
But the same age.

Speaker 17 (45:19):
But the same age, never had a not a fresh cut,
always had a big gold tee, always had a crease
in his pants. Like we all kept our originality. And
so many times people talk about us all wearing bald heads.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
He ain't cut his hairball. He didn't know.

Speaker 17 (45:35):
He was like, I love y'all, I ain't cutting my hairball.
I'm rather I ain't cutting my hairball. And so like,
I started wanting to wear the shorts because Doug Smith Missouri,
Steve Smith's Syracuse, Anderson Hunt, un l v Steve Smith,
Michigan State. They used to all come home in the
summer and bring me shorts, right, So I used to

(45:58):
have those satin shorts down on my They get heavy
when you start sweating in them, but they were so cold.
So like, by the time we got to college, I'm like,
y'all got a Nike contract.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
I know y'all can get us a longer shorts. That's
really what it was.

Speaker 17 (46:14):
Bobbie Blayd, I remember his name, our equipment, Like, we
want some longer shorts. And then the other thing, y'all know,
Nike rep came in, Welcome to the school.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
Everything's great, man.

Speaker 17 (46:26):
He put on some power forward shoes, man, back up,
power forward shoes.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
Back up.

Speaker 17 (46:31):
Yeah, we're not wearing them with a bow jacket. We
we ain't wearing those high tops up to my car.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
I'm not wearing them.

Speaker 17 (46:45):
And so that's when the hurrachis came. They didn't even
want us to wear them because they felt like it
wasn't a basketball shoe because your ankles.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
Were out right.

Speaker 17 (46:53):
And so we wore them, and it's like you got
to get your ankles taped before every practice, before every
game for a lawsuit, Like okay, cool. And then we
signed the a little wafers so we could wear those shoes.
And that's where like the whole fashion thing with the
shoes came from the ball heads.

Speaker 6 (47:11):
It was more like just solidarity, one for all, all
for one.

Speaker 14 (47:15):
Whatever.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
The socks, Ray Jackson.

Speaker 17 (47:19):
Really yes, indeed, we were about to play in Texas.
I forgot the first I forgot one of them Texas schools.
And Ray's homeboy came to the hotel. Ray was like,
da da dah, I've been traveling, bring me some socks.
And he brought Ray a gray pair with blue Nike.

(47:41):
And I was in the room playing Madden and Ray
came in the room and he pulled out the socks.
I'm like, oh, where you get them from? It's like
you just got it for the mall. And then we
all looked like they have some black So we went
to the mall and I just think about this. They
didn't have five pairs of black socks out an entire mall.

(48:05):
The first game, I wore dress socks on top of
my white sox. True story, and on dress socks. We
went to the little stall. We put on our unis,
covered up the socks.

Speaker 19 (48:18):
Da da.

Speaker 17 (48:19):
We ain't gonna snap off our pants until right before
the tip off, so they won't tell us.

Speaker 12 (48:24):
No.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
You know how that worked.

Speaker 17 (48:25):
We do it prior gotta get it. We're gonna shut
it down, so we're gonna make sure can't shut it down.
So that that's how we did it.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
That's dope. Yeah, oh Rice, that's what he's playing.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
Now.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
I love him.

Speaker 17 (48:45):
He should be in the Hall of Fame. Three final,
four US National Championship. He should be in the Hall
of Fame. Did great with San Diego State, brought their
program back to life. Brian Dutcher, who now coaching, was
the lead recruiters. Juwan signed with him first. Now their
head coach. He was giving our tickets on campus. Now
they got a real program. He should be in the
Hall of Fame. He's got many championships as Jim Beahan

(49:08):
and my guy in Michigan.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
State, who I love. I mean, he got many championships.
Is done like he deserved it. What's your relationship with Web?

Speaker 5 (49:19):
We touched on it in Atlanta when we had him
recently disintroducted the Hall of Fame.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
Saw that shout out, But what's your relationship with Web?

Speaker 17 (49:27):
I love Web and I'm almost sure, especially since Juwan
just re signed that I'll see him in a arbor.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
I'm back living in a d and.

Speaker 17 (49:36):
I see he just did it something incredible. Donation to
cannabis and al killing him in Detroit too, shot the viola.
I just love how strip clubs and we used to
be taboo even though everybody else was doing it. Now
we started doing It's great to see us getting profit
off of it. And so I believe we be alt

(49:57):
a break bread this year or whatever.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
At a game. I'm glad I got a chance to
be there. When he got inducted in the Hall of Fame.

Speaker 17 (50:04):
I'm glad he got a chance to be on the
show right after I lost my mom, and so we're goodie.
I have no problems, no ill will with my brother.
Of course, we need to probably sit down and talk
about some dotsormize and cross some teas or whatever. But
you know, I'm taking the bullet for see.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
Well that's my brother.

Speaker 5 (50:30):
Welcome to the show, legendar Eric Dickerson. In a January
twenty twenty two interview with The New York Times, you
discussed possibly suffering from CTE.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Where are you at with that? Is that something that's.

Speaker 19 (50:41):
Oh yeah, yeah, of course. I mean I'm not the
same guy I wasn't you know, even after I retired.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
You know, you don't know.

Speaker 19 (50:47):
I mean, like right now, I got I got the
own sense of Parkinson's. I gotta take him badication of Parkinson's.
I'm gonna tell you this's the sad thing about this,
this whole deal is that with the NFL, and look,
I love playing I just love playing football. And the
NFL makes you hate the NFL where they treat the players,
especially black players, like a lot of you probably never.

Speaker 5 (51:09):
Heard you ever heard of race nor me? Yeah, is
that they said that they raced on the black rationed
on us break that down though, because I remember reading
about that.

Speaker 19 (51:16):
So what they'll do, what they'll say is, okay, we'll
take the black player and white player. The white player
was already smart. The black player was not smart already.
So if he comes down, the white players should get
paid by the black players shouldn't get because he was
already dumb. Basically, he was already kind of dumb.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
And this wasn't even that long ago though.

Speaker 19 (51:32):
Oh this was only this was like five years ago,
and they and they said that we won't do it again.
I mean, it's like when when we get hurt, you know,
it's it's it's like like right now, you know it's
in the case with them for for for the Parkinson's
and CTE and we all get we get so manys,
they get denied. Give a great example, my friend Christian

(51:54):
a choir Nightmare, were just playing. I was teasing a
by the the other day because he got that accent
and so he's going for a C.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
T E.

Speaker 19 (52:05):
KSE and and the race Norman thing came in saying that,
well he's Nigerian, so maybe he couldn't speak good an
he don't understand crazy. I mean, I was teasing. I
said I was teaving. I said, maybe they're right, but
but then that's just some of the stuff.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
Man.

Speaker 19 (52:23):
It's great game, but it's the way they treat the
black players. Man, it's horrible. I just got to say it. Man,
it's it's it's a bad look. And not not everybody,
but it's just a bad look. It really is.

Speaker 5 (52:34):
I mean, to this day, to think that's still the
I mean, obviously we can see what the world is
going through, but to see that kind of thinking, in
that thought in in twenty twenty and beyond is insane.

Speaker 19 (52:46):
Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you this, U,
I can ask the question. Yes, okay, y'all health, health care, yes, life, life,
life and family to kids, five caps our kids. Y'all
got a good pension and everything. Okay, let me just
give you an example. Let me give an example for football. Okay.
Deacon Jones. Deacon Jones passed me about ten years ago

(53:06):
something like that. So I went to see d wait
before he was in the hospital for it was sick.
And if me and him talk, you said, what's your pension?
I said, Man, I don't know. I say, you can
probably be what fifteen hundred a month? He said, you
know what I get, Eric, I played fifteen years. I
get two hundred fifty dollars a month. That's what I get,
two hundred fifty fund dollars. I take it so they
can have it. We have no health care like players
like me. I pay for my own health care. You

(53:27):
have to lead you pay for your own healthcare. Now
the players have healthcare five years, that's it.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
And while they're in the league of post career.

Speaker 19 (53:35):
Post career like say, say you retired thirty, you got
this shift for five years.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
That's it. And this your shoe is not your family
or nobody else.

Speaker 19 (53:41):
No, how many years you got to play to good pinsion,
you got to play four years and three games?

Speaker 1 (53:45):
What is our five? Yeah?

Speaker 19 (53:48):
But the pincher now it's better. It's better for the
players now. But it's horrible. When I say horrible for us,
oh man, it's it's seven hundred dollars. Eight guys who
played like fourteen years right now and played in my
air like the nineties, eighties and nineties, you know, a
thousand dollars a month. Chris Paon Coyrie did a great job. Y.
They went back and did it with all the older guys.

(54:09):
That's still alive. But they did it for the older guys.
They all getting on the same insurance. We got all
get the older guys getting in now. Man, they switched
it up because PAWND is really really sad they're all getting.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
Then say this here, and I'm.

Speaker 19 (54:20):
Not trying to, you know, make it you know bad
like talk about the NFL like it. It's some good
things they've done, some bad things they've done. I did
an interview with the white with this white reporter and
he says, Eric, you said you probably know I'm white, said,
I can tell you white. Yeah, I'm talking on the
phone with him. He said, let me tell you this,
didn't tell it. I'm gonna tell you what that not
what I what. I don't know what i've heard and
what I know as a reporter. I said, okay. He said,

(54:42):
what's the NFL eighty percent black? I say a seven
eighty percent black. He said, now let me say this.
I said, okay. He said, if the NFL was eighty
percent of white, y'all have great insurance. I would have
great healthcare.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
I'm like, wow, I know that, no secret.

Speaker 19 (54:58):
That's just sad to say that. And he said he
said and that's what he said. He said, isn't that's
sad I have to say it like that. I said, yeah,
but it's sad to say it.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
It's the truth.

Speaker 5 (55:05):
I got a question in your time, was it more
the league or was it more of the good old
boys club of the owners.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
It's still a good old boys club. Man.

Speaker 19 (55:13):
They didn't have no black owners. They're not having no
no no. Like I think Magic owns. They're not having
you no black owned. Yeah, they're not having it. I
got it. I think a couple of you guys on
football team. Another guy that was trying to buy a
football team, and he was talking about I said, let
me tell you something. I said, you want to me.

(55:33):
I said, don't go in there and say you're trying
to help the play us. He said, I said that.
I said, you screwed up. He said I could tell.
He said, I could tell, I screwed I said, you
don't say that you're trying to have to play us.
It's not about the players. It's about the money they
can make. That's insane.

Speaker 10 (55:47):
They'll give a couple of athletes and rappers like a
little percentage of the teams.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
Yeah, you can point take pictures zero zero yeah, zero
zero one no full ownership what nah A good thing
to me.

Speaker 5 (56:01):
And I don't wish that I know one of that
good old boys your generation.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
Those guys are so passing.

Speaker 19 (56:07):
On yep, but it's still going. But they passed their
kids really good that mentality, don't least it's still it's
still a good old boys.

Speaker 5 (56:22):
We have none other then our brother to yo onto
the show. This stephen a situation has kind of been
ruined of late.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
I saw that you got brower right.

Speaker 5 (56:31):
I saw there was an initial situation happened back with
during the Kaepernick thing, and you guys got.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
Into it and in the world saw that.

Speaker 5 (56:38):
I don't know how it kind of recirculated, but it
has Steven Asmith one on his podcast and kind of
said his reasoning and his piece behind it. You're here
now and and and we want to give you the
floor to us say your piece. Before you say your piece,
you know, we got love for both of y'all.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
Show. I want to know, is there any any light
at the end of the tunnel.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
No, I don't I don't think because he's used his
platform really kind of to really tarnish Just tell you
a character, you know, what I mean, who I am
as a person, you know, I mean, So regardless of
however he started his monologue and his thing with his
his podcast trying to build me up to break me down,
we all see through that, you know, I mean, and
all the people he's talking about that has reached out

(57:15):
to them just that and the other from gms to
players and coaches. Who gives a who gives it? To
be quite honest, because I've had I've had people you
know that have reached out to me, players as well,
you know, and some of the people that he thinks
are cool with him, they're not cool with him. So
before I go on my diatribe, Steve may can't be
a solitical because I'm here with these guys, but I

(57:37):
will address some of those things.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
Where George bro talk us so.

Speaker 5 (57:42):
So so the initial situation, to backtrack, the initial situation
was during the Kapernick situation where he was trying to
come back. Uh, there was an incident where you m
and Max were talking and you said Max acts a
little blacker than you whatever, and that kind of got
the thing going. So what happened, So from what.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Happened, uh, and even at the clip like again, you
said a resurface. It researched resurface because I guess. He
did an interview with Joe Budden and he explained why
he didn't like Max or he didn't like working with Max,
and so obviously Max end up getting fire blah blah
blah blah. So fans took to that interview and they

(58:20):
brought up, okay, well this is why Too said what
he said. So I kept getting tagged on the video
and my phone was like, yo, what's going on. So
I saw the comments of what have you and I
just I haven't backed down from anything. I just said
facts and just left it at that. He took offence
to that. Then he went on his podcast and said

(58:42):
that I posted it, which I didn't, And even in
my response to that, and I'm like genius, I retweeted it.
I didn't actually post it. I didn't go out of
my way to go bring everything up. It was only
a response to that interview that he did with Joe
Budden about Max that all the fans you know, brought
it up. So he took offense you know, to that,

(59:03):
and so that's where all all resurfaced.

Speaker 5 (59:06):
Now he I got a chance to see what he said.
I went back in Washington. He said something about a
lawsuit at ESPN or something.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Right, so right, so right, So I guess what there
was something going on. I guess we were talking about
the Kaepernick situation, and somehow there was a text exchange
between me and him and stephen A and he on
air he mentioned something about the text, which I didn't
give him consent to do.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
I had you, but that's that's one rule.

Speaker 10 (59:38):
Somebody takes you, or any type of conversation takes you,
do not share it on social media.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
None of that, bro, You especial don't know exactly. So
I didn't take the honest I didn't go out of
my way to go file a lawsuit. I had an
attorney to reach out to me, like, YO, that's not right.
It's copyright infringe with something along those lines.

Speaker 5 (59:59):
Oh so someone just reached an attorney came and found
you about it, and he said that he want to pursue.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
This is what happens. Like he can't do that. So
it wasn't really him. It was I looked at ESPN.
ESPN has dogged me over the years, mischaracterized me, having
people having misunderstandings about who I am. You know, whether
whether you know as far as my characters is concerned,
everybody's talking about I'm arrogant, I'm selfish. Of course, I've
had disagreements with some players, some coaches, but who hasn't.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Right now the question, I do not to cut you off.
I don't because I don't want want you to finish.

Speaker 5 (01:00:30):
I do remember he was one of the back so
before all the hit you guys were cool then because
I remember he used to stand up for you a lot.
That was the one thing he used to do back
in the day before I.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
Think everybody realized stephen A was cool with a lot
of things back in the day. But as time has
or passed, a lot of people have a different opinion
about who stephen was then and who he is now.
I'm one of those people. So regardless of that, me
and steven A, we ain't buddy buddy, you know what
I mean. Whether he talks good or bad about me

(01:00:59):
on his show, whether it's objective or subjective, that's his job.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
I didn't know stephen A prior to me. I guess
our initial meeting. I guarantee he knew about me because
of my plate before I knew about him. So we're
not We're not buddy buddy at the end of the day.
And so again back to my point, they're trying to
reached out. He said, this is what this is what
we're want to do. He went after, Yes, he submitted
the file or the claim to ESPN, and that's how

(01:01:26):
how things started. But for me, for him to say
any mood or insinuate that it's a money grab or
something like that, that's that's that's that's that's not cool,
you know, mean to insinuate, oh, I'm broke this and
nothing the other, because these are these are certain things.
Like I said that, I it is personal, you know what
I mean. It's no, it's no secret I had. I

(01:01:48):
was represented by Drew and Jason Rosenhouse. They referred me
to Pro Sports Financial, who was managed, who's a financial
advisor in Jeff Rubin. It's public knowledge, bro I got
taking advantage of They stole a lot of my money.
Anybody knows me. I didn't just go blow my money,
you know what I mean? So yet, do I have
the means that I had back then? Absolutely not. But

(01:02:11):
for him to go on TV and in sinuate certain
these things that I did X y Z and I'm desperate.
That's not cool, bro, I'm not I'm not.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
I'm gonna I'm not.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Gonna let that slide. So at the end of the day,
and I told him, I called him. I told him,
was Yo, keep that same energy. You're gonna call me
a sorry ass and I'm pathetic things of that. Now,
I'm trifling when if I ever come across and keep
that same energy, it's not a threat. But you're not
gonna use that platform to downgrade me as a person

(01:02:41):
in what I've accomplished for your benefit because you have
a platform to do that and then talk about and
bring up all these these these top named people or
high qualified I guess in his his name to doman me,
you mentioned the Donaryannas of Brian Dawkins, the Primes.

Speaker 6 (01:02:58):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Uh, Shannon Sharp, you know talking about gms and players too.

Speaker 6 (01:03:03):
Don't go after him like that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
What have I ever done?

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):
Then?

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
Holding up papers in his podcast like he got something,
like he got something on me and he's gonna expose me, expose.

Speaker 14 (01:03:12):
Me for what?

Speaker 6 (01:03:13):
I urge him?

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
Do I give him permission to expose me? Because I've
never done anything. You don't have anything on me. You
got the world looking at me crazy like you got
something on me. So if you do, please let it
be known.

Speaker 5 (01:03:26):
The one thing I will say about athletes that we
don't really have too many skeletons like is front. All
of our is front and centers. So I get what
you're saying with that. So I mean, is there anything
else you kind of want to Like I said, I
want to make sure you get that out or anything
else off your chest when it comes to that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
No, I mean again, I just I appreciate the platform because,
like I said, he had the opportunity to sit in
front of his in front of his audience, his millions
and subscribers, you know, like you said, he's soliloquy to
share his thoughts with all the heroes or whatever the
case be. But for me, I wanted to share that
with everybody to give them some context as to what

(01:04:06):
he's saying is not accurate, it's not totally true. For
him to try to build me up and then bash
me and and and attack my character, that's that's not
gonna fly with me. I want the same platform, like
I said, to sit down and really share my story
and let everybody know, like, yo, he's not who we
think he is. And Steven A, he's walking around like

(01:04:27):
just because ESPN has pattered in his pockets with some millions,
he's walking around like he's up, like he's an athlete,
like he got that kind of cachet. And then, like
I said, mentioning guys that obviously I think highly of
talking about Dion and Shannon and these guys I come
across with, you know, on a regular you know what
I mean. That's not cool to be name dropping, you
know what I mean? Because now I'm around these guys

(01:04:48):
and I'm like, Okay, well, how do they really feel
about me?

Speaker 6 (01:04:51):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
How do they think about me? You know what I mean.
So that's that's that's where I am with it, you
know what I mean. So, as he said in this podcast,
we don't ever have to speak again, never ever. But
make no mistake about it. I don't try to be
no badass, no nothing, bro.

Speaker 6 (01:05:06):
Anybody know me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
I'm easy going, I'm cool. I've kept my nose clean
because I was raised the right way, bro. Right, But
you're not finna sit up here and try to bash me.
I attack my character in front of millions and sit
on ESPN with your compadres or what have you and
act like you dad and you this and that and
the other. That's not gonna fly with me. But like
I told him, keep that same energy. And I'm like saying,
I'm not condoning nobody, but you're not gonna disrespect me,

(01:05:29):
you know what I mean, Because when it comes to
the player that ain't got that has nothing to do
with that, that has nothing to do with this, And
you know what I mean, it's me for me, like
I said, it's personal. So at this point, like I said,
at this point in time, that's that's how I am.
That's where I am with you anytime as a man, though,
anytime as a man you feel disrespected as far as

(01:05:50):
your character or your integrity, you should feel a certain
type of work.

Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
You know what I'm saying. Any man should and you
should respond unless.

Speaker 10 (01:05:58):
You're not a man, you know what I'm saying, and
and unless you don't stand on wars or respect.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):

Speaker 10 (01:06:04):
And I'm and for me personally, any any time something
that's talked about in private and it shared public, it's
gonna cause a problem, right, like we like Mats said, especially,
it's not an understanding before that, you know what I'm saying, So, uh,
A lot a lot of things that's that from my
premiere in the way it happened, I feel like it
could be a conversation between y'all because with the media

(01:06:29):
knowing this and all this stuff being out, it's a
lot of stuff that been said that ain't true too,
you know what I'm saying, And it's lives that it's
been insinuated, right, you know what I'm saying. Because everybody's
on the outside looking in read So that's why I
feel y'all said down. You know what I'm saying, y'all
might have to get an in box for a minute,
so what or we could just bring some weed too,
you know what I'm saying. If y'all got a box
from man they talk about that's how we stood in
the hood. We got disagreements with, scrap it out. You

(01:06:51):
know what I'm saying, that we go back to the
store by kid together.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
That's that's how we grew up as men. It's gonna
be different.

Speaker 10 (01:06:57):
I get that, you know what I'm saying, But for me, personally,
I feel like with all the other shit around it
to being out in social media, that's making it harder
for y'all to get to understand this my person.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
But to your point, and like I said, to add
some clarity to things, like I said, and some things
are misleading, as if he and I and I went
back and somebody sent me a clip of some of
the things that he said, and he's like, Oh, he's
not a liar. He's not this, he's not that. And again,
the thing is the insinuation that you know, I'm doing
stuff for money. You know, like I told you, I
don't have the same amount of money because I got taken.

(01:07:27):
There ain't nobody business too. But but he that's what
I'm saying, he made it everybody business.

Speaker 20 (01:07:31):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
He got people looking at me sideways. And then even
with the lawsuit thing, I showed you guys, he admittedly
in the text from my from our textas change, He's like, oh,
I'm mistaken your your text for a tweet. Yeah, that's
what the attorney was referring to. He admitted that I

(01:07:52):
showed you guys that that's in our text conversation. I
ain't got no reason to lie about nothing and I
ain't got nothing to hide. So for him to come
out initially when he saw the whole facts thing in
response to that, somebody he gonna expose me, expose me
for what I urge you to expose me. But at
this end of the day, like I said, he feels

(01:08:13):
the way he feels. I feel the way I feel.
Like I told you, we're not Betty. But I don't
never have to talk to Steven that again in it
in my entire life. He can sit on ESPN do
what it use all the big words he wants to
to impress everybody. That doesn't impress me now. Like I said,
he's used that platform to tear some black athletes down,

(01:08:34):
and even I'm included that you try to build him up,
tear down with your words, this and that and the other.
You're monologue, bro, I don't I can see past all
of that. But you're not finna just do it to me.
A lot of guys are not gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
Say anything now. I feel, I feel you.

Speaker 10 (01:08:47):
I mean shit, he still I just the way he
talked about me with the bawse, So my boy, I
ain't ever brought it up to him, but he dogged me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
I didn't let it go because I'm live still but but.

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
Doing right but again right, but those things like you
said him, yeah what he done right? But like I said,
you know, I said, I can look at this camera
just like he looks into the camera and talk to America.
And when I tell you, when I'm serious about that,
keep the steam and keep that same energy, my guy,
keep that same energy and I put that on Alazon Black,

(01:09:21):
my dude, keep that same energy that you did with
your podcast. Keep to keep it the same. That's all
I gotta say.

Speaker 5 (01:09:28):
I think before it move one, Jack, I want to
come in both of us because we both tried to
try to try to go to peaceful right here and.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
I just can't believe it and that ship for us
to do it, it don't work. It's just crouds. Yeah,
it's just it's smoke.

Speaker 4 (01:09:49):
Welcome to the show, Pat McAfee.

Speaker 5 (01:09:50):
You spoke the name and called out someone a suit
that you felt like was kind of yeah for real, Yeah,
I mean the curR to do that, and you got
a lot of you already had respect, but even more
respect for doing that. Has there been any backlash, any conversation,
like because like you said, there is a give and
take and as given and a tug between what people

(01:10:13):
hung their hats on for years and made a lot
of money and what is coming and what what it's
going to be.

Speaker 7 (01:10:17):
I don't know, I don't know if there was any
conversations that happened behind uh obviously, So you know, like
I thought that was a warning shot to that guy.
You know, I didn't even think that was direct. Yeah,
because I'm the I'm the executive producer of my show.
I report directly to Jimmy and Bob, So I'm not

(01:10:43):
really viewing anybody as like I saw everybody, Like Pat
calls out his boss, I'm gonna motherfucking boss.

Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
What do we know?

Speaker 7 (01:10:49):
Like what do we jim p we talk to Jimmy,
Pataro or Bob Iger, Like is that who we're talking about?
Because those are people that could technically be described as
my boss, and like Burke Magnus as well, and I
have a great relationship with him. But I think even
Burke would say like yeah, like we have a good relate,
like we were talking like this as opposed to like this,

(01:11:12):
And so that was just a warning shop to I
thought a person that was you know, at the same,
which is hilarious because he's the former president of the place.
I guess a lot of people, we had a lot
of fear of them. I did not like, I do
not have I that guy. That guy left me sitting
in his office for forty five minutes. No showed me
when I was supposed to have a meeting with him,

(01:11:32):
right when five years ago, six years ago, whatever show?
No showed Yeah, wow, yeah, so you remember that, what's that?
And you remember that it's things a fucking elephant.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
Brand, buddy?

Speaker 7 (01:11:42):
Yeah, yeah, I am Yeah, I got everybody's yeah. He
Also he also banned all my friends from coming on
my show, so there was h There was a ban
of ESPN talent on my show on YouTube that came
directly from him, which so much show that I started
hashtag ESPN stinks the day and everybody got banned from

(01:12:04):
my show, you know, only trended for like eight nine
hours or something like that. And then that's the next
day is when I met Jimmy Patarro. Jimmy Patarro called
me and said like, hey, how do we you know,
what's the deal? And I told him about you guys
are banning my friends from coming on my show, Matt
Hasselback who worked at ESPN, Jeff Pass and worked at ESPN.
Dan Orlovski worked at ESPN. All these people that I've

(01:12:25):
known since before they got into ESPN. Like they're not
even allowed to come on my podcast or whatever or
my YouTube show. You guys banned it. So like that
guy was not a fan of me or our operation
for a long time. So then whenever ESPN signs us
and he runs sports Center and our show is now

(01:12:45):
in place of Sports Center at noon. I'm a fan
of Sports Center. We all watched Sports Center.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
I grew up on.

Speaker 7 (01:12:53):
But there became like a war almost from behind scenes
from like Sports Center people and like people that have
been in ESPN a long time against US coming in
and taking their jobs and all this other shit. And
I didn't see it like that. We were like pumped
that we made it to the big leagues. Like, hey,
I'm pumped we're on the Worldwide Leap. Like that's how

(01:13:13):
I viewed it. And this is what I'm talking about,
playing a checkers player, Like get the ESPN deal done.
I'm like, this is awesome, Like we joined the ESPN team,
so lucky to be here. We get access and then
immediately it's like, this guy sucks. This guy's ruining ESPN,
and it's not coming for people outside of ESPN. It
was coming from people within ESPN. And I did not
expect that at all. So I immediately like, okay, I'm

(01:13:35):
in war, Like that's what if. That's what we're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
We're in war.

Speaker 7 (01:13:38):
And then once you start learning about how shit's going
behind scenes, things that are being said to people, things
that are being leaked, the timing in which they're being leaked,
it's like, oh, they're trying to kill me. Like they're
trying to They're trying to make our show impossible to
advertise with, They're trying to make sure people don't watch
our show. So like, as I started learning that, I'm like,
all right, well that's not gonna I don't know how
this has gone in the past with other people, but yeah,

(01:14:01):
this particular white trash kid from Pittsburgh, like, hey, suits,
this ain't this is not how this is gonna go.
So that was just a warning shot I didn't that
wasn't even like supposed.

Speaker 15 (01:14:11):
To be uh.

Speaker 7 (01:14:12):
And then obviously it goes big and I heard from
this is no lie no less than like forty people
that have worked at ESPN or used to work at ESPN,
and they were like, thank you for saying what you said.
And I was like, well, if I really crafted a
statement about that, I mean, I could have said something
much better. But I also did not appreciate the thing

(01:14:32):
I didn't think about once again, Checkers player. I did
not expect the backlash afterwards. Like Burke Magnus just became
the president of Content at ESPN. I think he has
a great vision for what the future of sports media
should look like. He was a big part of us
joining ESPN. People were attacking Burke because it made him
look sloppy, because it's inside the building. People are attacking

(01:14:52):
Jimmy because it looked sloppy. And that was something that
I did not think about. I was very apologetic about,
like I didn't mean to take down my allies or
make allies look bad in the whole thing. But I
genuinely did not expect it to get as big as
it did, because I didn't think I said anything that
was like that.

Speaker 6 (01:15:09):
Crazy, you know, or.

Speaker 7 (01:15:13):
Like I'm a pretty good talker, you know, I'm a
pretty good promo cutter. Like if I really wanted to
saw motherfucker down, Like I thought I could have done
it in a much bigger way, and I did not,
So I was actually pretty proud of myself. I was like,
look at me, I'm an adult. And then it got loud.
I'm an I'm an adult, and it got real loud,
got real loud. But yeah, that'll be me forever, and

(01:15:34):
it'll be a gift in the curse.

Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
We appreciate and respect it. Welcome to the show, Dwight Howard.

Speaker 12 (01:15:47):
We just to have a chance to really build it,
build it like we wanted to, you know what I'm saying.
And it wasn't meant to happen, you know, looking back
on and I wish it happened, but it wasn't meant
to happen.

Speaker 5 (01:15:58):
To the relationship with him. I got a chance to
play with him and know his mindset and know how
he moved. But then got a chance to play with
you and know how you're serious but you could smile
and laugh and he's not like.

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
That at all.

Speaker 5 (01:16:10):
Yeah, yeah, talk to us about that and and was
there it ever an understanding or what was it like
working with him because you only got a year with him.

Speaker 12 (01:16:18):
I don't think it was the understanding that we could
have that we could yeah, with time because there was
so many expectations. And I'm going through my own ship
with trying to recover from this back surgery and then
tearing my labor room, and it's like, man, how do
I deal with somebody that I grew up watching as

(01:16:39):
a child. But now we teammates. We just played each
other in the finals, right literally, so like we rated
this rivalry like I want to beat his ass, but
now we teammates. So it was like, shit, I can't
do that no more. H But it's Kobe Bryant. You
know what I'm saying. He don't don't I want to
get his ass back?

Speaker 1 (01:16:59):
Don't you tough? Bro?

Speaker 4 (01:17:00):
Ship, I forgot about that.

Speaker 3 (01:17:02):
You really had to do all that?

Speaker 4 (01:17:03):
Yeah, because that was that was That was for real.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
That was one of the one.

Speaker 4 (01:17:07):
But for real, you didn't got other people, but for real,
that was one of the ones.

Speaker 1 (01:17:10):
Like the whole time he was over here, laid back.

Speaker 3 (01:17:13):
Yeah you know, oh he talked on you and Ship, that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Was that was one of the one.

Speaker 5 (01:17:18):
You didn't pay people back one hundred times worse, but
that was one of the ones we did.

Speaker 12 (01:17:24):
I see it now out of my ass. But I
was young, and really I was. What happened was I
didn't think he was gonna dunk because I ain't know
he was. I ain't know the rookie year of second
it was my rookie year, so I thought he was
finna come over and do like a pull up on
the last I was that was eight.

Speaker 1 (01:17:46):
Kobe, Yeah, so you he was dunking everything. I didn't
know until he found out he was dunking everything.

Speaker 12 (01:17:53):
He split. It was Pat Garrett and Deshaun Stevens. He
split the pick and roll and I jump over, come
through like that like I was gone. I don't know
what the funk I was thinking. And so then I
closed my eyes too, and all I heard was booming.

Speaker 8 (01:18:10):
Oh, I said, oh.

Speaker 12 (01:18:17):
So then uh, Brian Grant Uh, he said, welcome to
the league, young fella.

Speaker 1 (01:18:23):
I said, oh shit, Kobe got me.

Speaker 12 (01:18:26):
And then right after that, my homeboy, it was my birthday,
so he made a cake with Kobe dunking on me.
That's everywhere I was at. I got seeing the picture
of Kobe dunking on me, and it was like me
and Kobe always there's some bullshit. We always been connected.
Every picture out of seat. I'm in the background, like,

(01:18:48):
fuck you, Kobe dunking the ass Now I'm in all
your pictures in the back like but yeah, man, rest
of peace.

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
Man.

Speaker 12 (01:18:55):
We had some great times man, even on his teammates.

Speaker 5 (01:19:00):
This was about some of the cool times because it
wasn't always He's not like that, and you know, it
was definite.

Speaker 4 (01:19:04):
I know that I wasn't there, but I know you
guys have some good times.

Speaker 12 (01:19:07):
I used just always mess with him how before the
game when they introduced to him, how he would try
to chew gum but it was no gum in his mouth,
but he was acting like he had gone like how
Michael Jordan would come out. So I'm like, yo, are
you trying to act like Jordan? No question, no gum
in his mouth, and he's just sitting on the bench.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
Dwight, You're ready to play? Yeah, yeah, yeah tonight.

Speaker 12 (01:19:33):
You know, like Dad, this kbe is crazy. But then
off the court, we had some times together in Vegas
where you know, we had some parties and were just
chilling and it's just you see COVID at a different light,
you know what I'm saying, And we just talking and
kicking the shit, you know, and I remember going to
his house one time and he liked, uh, that movie

(01:19:55):
pitch Perfect, and so I'm like, he's like, yo, you.

Speaker 1 (01:20:02):
Seen that movie pitch Perfect.

Speaker 12 (01:20:04):
And I'm like, yeah, I like that movie.

Speaker 1 (01:20:06):
He like, yeah, I like it too. I'm like, get
the fuck out of here.

Speaker 12 (01:20:09):
You like no pitch Perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:20:10):
I'm like, ain't no way.

Speaker 8 (01:20:11):
I'm thinking you watch all crazy ass type movies killing people.

Speaker 1 (01:20:15):
But you like pitch Perfect.

Speaker 12 (01:20:17):
Y'all just watching that shit last night, bro, It's one
of my favorite movies.

Speaker 1 (01:20:20):
Just become best friend? Did we just become best friends?

Speaker 12 (01:20:22):
It was crazy, like, you know, just as a kid
watching Kobe play and then coming out of high school,
Kobe dunking on you. Then you're in the Olympics with Kobe,
and then you on Kobe's team, and then y'all arguing.

Speaker 1 (01:20:39):
With each other.

Speaker 12 (01:20:40):
All that is still even a dream. Just like I
don't care what people say, like me and Kobe connected,
I got hello. I look back at all the pitches
I got to him and just me and him together,
just talking, all the shit that done happened between me
and him, like the personal stories that I ain't gonna
say old camera, Like all that is like I can

(01:21:00):
see that. So when people saying, oh, Kobe ain't fuck
with you or this happened, I just laughed, like, you know,
people don't really know. And then we played together. We
didn't work out, but that happens.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
You know.

Speaker 12 (01:21:14):
It wasn't meant for us to win together like that,
but I get I got a chance to see him
in so many it's like different eras of Kobe, like
my high school era playing against seeing him play, watching
him in the Olympics together, playing against him on the
same team, and then watching him be a dad and

(01:21:34):
training all the different women, canvas park and all that,
so you know, just seeing all that and then when
he passed man, it really it really broke me down,
Like you know, I'll never forget how it all happened.
We just played in Philly the night before Brown had

(01:21:55):
broke his record, some to scoring record or whatever. So
I remember just sitting down thinking about, you know, Kobe
scoring all them points, and then and then Lebrun coming
up and scoring all these points, and I was like,
you know what, it's always good to tell people why
they're alive, you know, how you appreciate them and stuff

(01:22:17):
like that. So I sat up there on the bench,
and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna tell Lebron, like,
that's a great accomplishment all so, I'm proud of you.

Speaker 1 (01:22:27):
I've been playing against you since we was fifteen.

Speaker 12 (01:22:30):
So I went over there and told him that, went
back to the room and we started talking about Kobe
and how many points he scored and how he dunked
on me and all this stuff. And then we get
on the plane and we're flying back and my phone
is blowing up and everybody's sleep. So I wake up

(01:22:50):
and I look and said Kobe died. I'm like, get
the fuck out of here. And so I'm looking around
everybody knocked out, and I'm like, this can't be real.
So I go on Instagram and I just see a
whole bunch of messages Kobe died. And then I go

(01:23:11):
wake up Boogie and I'm like, yo, look at this.
He's like Yo, what the fuck? So I wake up
ad and Lebron. I started waking like, yo, bro, Kobe died,
and so I'm like, Yo, this can't be for real.

Speaker 1 (01:23:25):
Go to the back.

Speaker 12 (01:23:27):
Everybody else start waking him up, just start crying. I
go to the bathroom and I just start crying for
like twenty minutes in the bathroom. I can't believe it.
And I started thinking about his daughters, like, damn, I ain't.

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
Gonna have no father.

Speaker 12 (01:23:41):
Then one of his daughters died. I just kept thinking
about that, and then we got off the plane, and shit,
it was just so hard after that to even just
fathom the whole situation. Then this man was my teammate,
you know what I'm saying, So it's different for a
lot of people. Was like, man, we grew up watching
this person, but I hadn't actually been on a plane

(01:24:02):
with this man. You know what I'm saying. We don't
practice together. We kick the ship with each other, themn
they're about to go, blows with each other, you know
what I'm saying. So now it's like you find out
this person ain't there no more.

Speaker 1 (01:24:13):
So, yeah, it was.

Speaker 5 (01:24:16):
It was really really kind of piggybacking off that you
were one of the rare people that got a chance
to play with Kobe. Play gets him in the finals,
play with them, play with Lebron, win with Lebron. Not
to compare them to but are there any what are
some of the similarities or contract Like.

Speaker 8 (01:24:36):
I just think they're two different. They're two it's two different,
They're two different people, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 12 (01:24:43):
Kobe's I always felt like Kobe was like Batman, you
know what I'm saying, Like he just this by himself,
dark Knight.

Speaker 1 (01:24:53):
But yeah, he that's Kobe.

Speaker 8 (01:24:54):
And then you know, Lebron's like Captain America career real,
that's that's like, that's like Lebron.

Speaker 12 (01:25:01):
So Lebron is always he wants everybody to be around,
you know what I'm saying. He want to have fun,
He want to dance full of games and put on
his music. And Kobe is just locked in. He don't
say nothing. You know, he got the basketball and he
dribbling the heavy ball before the whole the game. So
as far as skills, I think I think Kobe like

(01:25:26):
is the most skilled out of all the players as
far as pure skill shooting, being able to what you know,
it's not even close to me. Yeah, I'm just thinking
about everything, just thinking about it, like he can do
all that, like everything Jordan did. I felt like he

(01:25:46):
just multiplied it. Yeah, like people mad at him for
doing it, Like, man, why like you don't never try
to break the wheel, you you see what works, and
then you use that and make it work for you.
So that's what Kobe did, and he did it with
the best player ever. Like he did everything he did
and made it better. And you know, even watching him practice,

(01:26:10):
like some things that he was doing, I was like,
why is he doing it? Like one day I saw
him getting his fingers stretched. I'm like, why is he
getting his finger stretched? I just saw the lady doing
this for a whole like hour, and I guess it
was when he shot his jump shot so it be
smooth every time and when he So it's just like
little things like that, like where did he learn that from?

(01:26:33):
It was just crazy to see. But then Lebron, he
just got the whole package. He can pass, he can
post up, he's big, He's like Magic Johnson on steroids.

Speaker 1 (01:26:47):
He should be the logo who Lebron?

Speaker 4 (01:26:52):
Oh all around?

Speaker 10 (01:26:54):
I don't think we've seen anybody logo better all around?

Speaker 1 (01:26:58):
He said, Lebron should be the logo. While I'm not all.

Speaker 10 (01:27:01):
If you're talking about basketball, people tell kids today, yeah,
Michael Johann is the best. But if I had to
tell you to look at one player, go look at
Lebron James everybody's telling their kid that because he does
everything right on and.

Speaker 1 (01:27:13):
Off the court, you can't miss with Lebron. So what
about Steph. He's not six eight to sixty that can
do it all. That's broke all the records.

Speaker 3 (01:27:24):
Yeah he's not.

Speaker 1 (01:27:27):
Yeah, they both get to beat though, step can get
the beat.

Speaker 12 (01:27:29):
Too, But Steph, I don't know. It's just that man,
Steph Like, but a lot of kids he step changed
the game. Yeah, no question, generation, no question, step changed
the game. Very few people did that. Yeah, so like, shoot,
we have Lebron and stuff on it.

Speaker 10 (01:27:45):
Yeah, I'm just you know, I'm just like, for what
what Steph is unbelievable, But the total aspect of a
basketball player and what she's supposed to do as a
basketball player, and how you're career career is supposed to
look when you finished.

Speaker 4 (01:27:58):
Yeah, Raj, bro that's that there.

Speaker 1 (01:28:02):
That's that there. That man, Yeah, that came. I ain't
mad at that.

Speaker 5 (01:28:08):
You mentioned earlier, uh not wanting to go to the
Lakers because of the Shack comparisons, and you already started
in Orlando and he jumped the Lakers and you weren't
trying to do that and ended up happening. You and
him kind of had a friendly then I felt like
he kind of did some personal and kind of took
it a little bit more serious. And again, knowing you fun,

(01:28:29):
energetic kind of person, where is that at? What did
you think when you first started hearing like, damn, does
Shack not like me?

Speaker 1 (01:28:36):
Or like? What? Thought it was crazy?

Speaker 8 (01:28:39):
And I was thinking you want to fight or something
like because every time it was like something on TV
and somebody say something, No, I don't think though. No
the Lakers got five hall of him?

Speaker 1 (01:28:54):
No no, no, no, only four, there's not one. Well,
don't put them in there.

Speaker 20 (01:28:59):
No, don't do that.

Speaker 8 (01:29:01):
So I'm like, damn, like every time he said something
about Dwhite And for.

Speaker 12 (01:29:05):
Me, like you know, I like to do voices. So
I feel everybody for saying they mom, it don't matter
who it is. It ain't me doing it because I'm
I dislike you. It's just me trying to make everybody laugh.

Speaker 8 (01:29:15):
So if he took it that way, like he tripping,
but like, I don't know why he was like that.
I never had no issues with Shaq. I never wanted
to be like Shaq, but I enjoy watching Shaq do
what he do I think he's the most dominant player
to ever played.

Speaker 3 (01:29:30):
Like there's no player.

Speaker 12 (01:29:32):
It's dombinated as shack, you know what I'm saying, Like
his niggas going crazy.

Speaker 8 (01:29:37):
I remember in eleventh grade watching him play against the
kem Bamutumba in the finals, like catching it every time,
elbow to the chest, turn around, dunk on him every time.
I'm like, Yo, this is crazy, right.

Speaker 12 (01:29:50):
So I'm like, why is he hating on me? Like,
if anything, he should be happy that somebody is trying
to follow in their footsteps. You know, I remember this
summer as a young kid who said they wanted to
be just like me, and I took that as saying, like, man,
thank you man. I appreciate you for one to be
like me, but I want you to be greater. So

(01:30:11):
you know what, I'll train you. So I started training
this kid this summer and everything. I'm just reminding him,
he remember what you said, you want to be like
Dwight Howard. Well, shit, I did more than this, but
this is what it. This is what it takes. So
like I don't know why he had that against me.
I reached out to try to work out with him,

(01:30:33):
do business, whatever it may be because I ain't got
no bad blood with Shack, but it just seemed like
it's always something between me and him, and he always
even now.

Speaker 8 (01:30:42):
The stuff I was just saying about the Hall of
Fame shit that happened.

Speaker 12 (01:30:46):
This season, I can't watch the Lakers. I bet he
watched Lakers game this year because I ain't on a team.

Speaker 10 (01:30:53):
But you know what can't Nobody can't Nobody, Shack and
nobody else in they right mind. If you know anything
about basketball, it's not even a question if you're a
Hall of.

Speaker 12 (01:31:02):
Fame I agree, But come on, like, why would it
out of all people him like one here a center,
and like, really, ain't that too many where they talk
about all us anyway? So why put one of them down?
You know what I'm saying, Like, my my life ain't
gonna dimn your life.

Speaker 19 (01:31:23):
About me.

Speaker 1 (01:31:24):
I got my own lade.

Speaker 8 (01:31:25):
You know what I'm saying, I ain't worrying about what
you're doing in that aspect.

Speaker 12 (01:31:29):
And then now I felt like, because I'm not a
person that get on TV and talk bad about other people,
I felt like looking at him doing it is like
he not understanding. People got family and they got friends,
and they got people that's watching, y'all. Watch what you
say about certain certain people are certain things on TV

(01:31:49):
or whatever, because they got people watching. He got kids watching.
You know what I'm saying, I got my kids watching.
They don't need to have no issues with each other
because they dads might seem like they hate each other,
like for what, Like it's too much going on around
the world for us to be hating about who the
best basketball big man ever?

Speaker 1 (01:32:10):
Like mm hmm, it's just stupid to me.

Speaker 12 (01:32:14):
We can have barbecue, barbecue, talk about it, barb barbershop talk.
But well, I guess we got to get into the
little USC thing and fight it out. I don't want
to see that. I'm just saying I ain't gonna do that.
We'll look like what's the two fighters from back in
the day They got died out three thousand, getting more

(01:32:37):
slices than they got in their fault. They look like
two big seals in their fighting. They couldn't even throw
no they I'm so tired. That's what being shock a
look like in there, come in the way.

Speaker 1 (01:32:52):
You know what I would rather it didn't fight.

Speaker 12 (01:33:02):
I would rather see y'all a comedy battle.

Speaker 1 (01:33:04):
Yeah, yeah, that'd be funny. Yeah, I got jo.

Speaker 3 (01:33:12):
Oh my god, welcome to the showf this.

Speaker 1 (01:33:23):
Is your first year. It's my first year. So it's like.

Speaker 20 (01:33:28):
When he when he, when he came, I didn't know
what I was a part of until I like when
I got there to the gym to play pick up.
That's how I seemed like, Okay, this ship magical and
I'm a part.

Speaker 1 (01:33:39):
You've seen it right from the jump. Yeah, my first
my first pickup game was.

Speaker 20 (01:33:45):
It was amazing, like not amazing, but like you know, scary,
but you know, as far as in the arena, what
y'all got, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:33:53):
Because KG.

Speaker 20 (01:33:54):
I was guarding KG at the time, and he like
cussed me the funk out like I'm talking about really
cuts me out. Like I shoot a shot, right, It's
my first day and I make it and I'm like
telling myself like get up, get it up. I'm talking
to myself. He's like the chazz nigga, who are you
talking to? And I'm like, you know, im from beyond,

(01:34:16):
so you know, I'm like okay, thinking to myself like okay,
I need to respond. It's like jail, like you know,
cat letting nobody talk you like that.

Speaker 1 (01:34:26):
First day in jail. So I'm like, I'm just trying
to get my swag, you know.

Speaker 20 (01:34:31):
I just said to him politely, though I don't say
nothing like I'm trying to get my swag, you know,
because I try to get people like three strikes, you
know what I mean. That was one that was one
for KG. I didn't want to give him one, but
I got to the second strike. I said, well, I'm
trying to get my swag, and he's like fuck your
swag like loud, and I'm looking around like strike too.

(01:34:54):
I gotta say something, and then you know, I say
fuck your swag. He looked at him like, yeah, okay,
So because he kind of seen that, like like that
though yeah he liked it, you know what I mean,
but he kind.

Speaker 8 (01:35:07):
Of seen it, and I was just like, damn.

Speaker 1 (01:35:10):
I really said the KG like my first day is
I'm like, damn. Hopefully he don't He's just leave it
there and don't bring us to tomorrow. So I try
to meet him at the.

Speaker 20 (01:35:21):
Waffle station, right because I feel like that next morning, yeah,
that's the easiest place to talk to somebody at the
waffle station, right yeah, right when you're making your waffless,
just syrup in butter, keep yourself yeah no, no no berries, yeah,
no whip cream nah.

Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
Okay.

Speaker 20 (01:35:38):
So he you know, he likes his he likes his waffles,
and he doesn't say nothing to me why he's making
his waffles. So, you know, you just knowing somebody that's scary,
Like I'm like, oh, ship, while he's.

Speaker 1 (01:35:51):
Making a waffle, you know what I mean?

Speaker 20 (01:35:53):
And so you know, I I you know, he didn't
say nothing to me the whole day. And then I
was like, fuck it, I'm gonna talk. And I was like,
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I thought we you know, left
that over yesterday. I apologize.

Speaker 1 (01:36:08):
Man. Man, he was like, you know what, young fella
like you man, It's all good, bro, you good. That's dope.

Speaker 5 (01:36:13):
So how did you guys, because I heard you guys
had a great relationship, How did you guys relationship kind
of flourish after that?

Speaker 20 (01:36:18):
I was at taking university today. I ain't graduated from
no other school. Like I was his rook everything he
did everything I was there, like every peanut, butter and
jelly I made, like you know what I mean, like
what kind of stuff hurt?

Speaker 1 (01:36:34):
He had his perks let me hear what he had.
He's doing that. I want to hear some of the.

Speaker 20 (01:36:37):
Perks, Like for example, like one time here trying to
take me shopping, and you know, I'm a good Brook.
I ain't gonna ask for nothing. I'm just sitting chilling.
Like he's like get something. I'm like nah, no, man,
He's like, nigga, get something. Like I'm like damn. So
he goes and put the scars on my neck. He

(01:36:57):
put a scarf on a scarf it's flying. I'm like damn,
like you know, and then he taught me about scarves.
He taught me about hats. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:37:08):
So that's like kind of stuff he did, you know
what I mean, Like or like bou Ray, you know, right,
like bu Ray.

Speaker 20 (01:37:16):
He'll stunt on everybody else, Like if they got fifties
in there, he'll give them to me because he don't
like fifties.

Speaker 8 (01:37:24):
So I'm the Brook, like, yeah, I got four thousand
worth fifties.

Speaker 1 (01:37:30):
It could be one.

Speaker 20 (01:37:32):
It used to be so bad, uh, Like we had
like Perkins and Leon used to get mad. We had
a whole team meeting, like ticket don't hang over with us.
Perkins did that like, oh, Man, Ticket, this real story.
We had a whole team meet perk.

Speaker 1 (01:37:48):
Like Ticket, You always hanging out with baby Face just stupid, man,
you know.

Speaker 20 (01:37:56):
What I'm saying, Like, that's how much our relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:37:59):
Was, like was tight. Yeah, we were tight as hell.

Speaker 20 (01:38:01):
So you know, me and me and him we got
I got so much like just crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:38:07):
Shit with him. Man, it was crazy Wallace.

Speaker 5 (01:38:19):
Man, you got one of the most unbreakable records, probably
in the history of the NBA. I don't know, forty
one texts in one season. Hey, they changed they changed
the rules.

Speaker 1 (01:38:30):
Because of you. Yeah, oh yeah, they changed the rules
because of you. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:38:34):
You talk us about some of the referees you had
battles with and just how the hell it just happened
so much. A lot of its reputation, But of course
aren't some of.

Speaker 1 (01:38:41):
Them, Yeah for sure.

Speaker 21 (01:38:42):
Now I'll say this early on in my career, where
if I felt as those things were unjust, I'm going
to use a lot of profanity.

Speaker 1 (01:38:51):
So you're right, a lot of them I did earn.
But as I got older, became more of a vet.

Speaker 21 (01:38:57):
And I got to know more than cheating reps that
was back out. Then it's like all right, I know
this person, how he going ref and this and that
D D D. So now I don't even have to cuss.
So now I just say little stuff like M I
got that email, huh or you know what two like mm, yeah,

(01:39:21):
I know what it is. How how do you get
a technical foul? You going to the basket. All you
trying to do is score, You get fouled and you
get a technical foul?

Speaker 1 (01:39:31):
Who called it? Joey Jack.

Speaker 21 (01:39:35):
Playing Cleveland in Cleveland, so you know that heated rivalry
when I was in Detroit. So I got the ball
on the post boom. So I'm going I'm going to
Ilgauskas and give him a move. And I go to
the middle and here comes Veragill, Wam Clivers, everybody right,
All three of us fall.

Speaker 1 (01:39:55):
To the ground and Jack stands over.

Speaker 21 (01:40:00):
Gave all three attack, right, So you know I'm getting up.
I don't know what's happening. Right, Wait, how the hell
I get attacked? I'm trying to score the ball. I
ain't you know, I ain't do no dirty players, and
I'm trying to score the ball. And then you know
he was like, hey, that's what we were told to do.
If it's any rough stuff. I was like, all right,
I got you already, got kicked a whole lot of stuff.

(01:40:22):
Man was of course, y'all know I wasn't. I wasn't
the favorite by by the league, rests all of.

Speaker 1 (01:40:29):
That, you know. But I went back at them too, definite.
I think my career how I was about fifteen on
the season. I think I got up to fifteen. Then
he almost tripled that though.

Speaker 5 (01:40:38):
Yeah, I'm just saying what I'm saying. I'm saying, I'm yeah, yeah,
I had. I had my run too. I lost a
lot of money. Take much how much? How much were
text back then? With there a thousand, because then jumped
up to like twenty five hundred.

Speaker 1 (01:40:49):
By the time Jones it was five hundred of pot up.

Speaker 21 (01:40:54):
As you did not at first they just when they
think that happened when they came out with the sheet rule.

Speaker 1 (01:41:00):
Yeah, so did she rule? You get sixteen texts, yep.
And with each tech, as it goes up.

Speaker 21 (01:41:06):
Towards that sixteen, yeap, that fine becomes higher and the
suspension comes, and then the suspension comes for the sixteen
tech and then if it goes up to I think
it's it was twenty or twenty one.

Speaker 1 (01:41:19):
It was a couple of more games, and this and
that and this and that. It was on and on.

Speaker 5 (01:41:23):
So you gotta take every other game, you have, every
other game at least a tech on everything.

Speaker 1 (01:41:28):
It was worth it, though, Oh yeah, yeah, it was
worth it. Yeah, I'm my piece. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:41:34):
And then I never regretted they had rests in their area.
There was there was the was shaving on the game too,
So I can imagine.

Speaker 10 (01:41:39):
I remember, I remember Ron Ron caught some bullshit and
you're just staring at him. Bang, bang, I'm too and
throw you out, just staring and you ain't say one word.

Speaker 1 (01:41:50):
How you know if I'm staring at you supposed to
be resting the game with too, you didn't say a word.
That's the bullshit right there. But I knew, but I
you know, I knew what it was.

Speaker 21 (01:42:01):
A lot of it was part of the business, you know,
the big big Laker city Portland was a small market.

Speaker 1 (01:42:07):
And then again playing in Detroit, you know.

Speaker 21 (01:42:09):
I knew it wasn't that much love as far as
you know, league wide with them, because of course would
have been the black urban city and the whole bad
boys thing and this and that.

Speaker 1 (01:42:19):
So yeah, I ain't worried about it though.

Speaker 21 (01:42:24):
Like I said, I think my young fellow might get
me though he might Yeah, dra might get me.

Speaker 1 (01:42:30):
He might get forty. He the only one I could
see that that might come close.

Speaker 10 (01:42:34):
Yeah, I'm third on the list though, Yeah, I know
I'm not that high overall.

Speaker 1 (01:42:38):
I'm third on the list behind Barkley and Carl Malone.

Speaker 21 (01:42:43):
Really, yes, sir, it's a great company, and I think
I think Robmin is fourth right behind me, my brother
Kenyan Martin.

Speaker 1 (01:43:01):
I always ad you watching the Bad Boy Pistons.

Speaker 15 (01:43:04):
Talk about that, Yeah, sending me everything Pistons, man, Like
that was you know me being born in Saginaw.

Speaker 1 (01:43:10):
Know that was there.

Speaker 14 (01:43:12):

Speaker 15 (01:43:13):
Like she's a die hard to date sports fan, Like
that's shed at.

Speaker 1 (01:43:19):
Me when I was out there layd boys. She understood
what it.

Speaker 15 (01:43:22):
Was, man Like you played the way I'm saying, you
played the way I played the game man, And she
loved that style, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 14 (01:43:29):
So she's to this day like that's all she does.

Speaker 15 (01:43:32):
She lay in her bed and it stays on either
games or Sports Center, and she does cross the puzzles.

Speaker 1 (01:43:39):
That's her.

Speaker 15 (01:43:41):
Yeah, you know what I'm saying. So she eighty three,
so that's all she do. Man Like she's sitting there,
but she's she used to send me everything pistons. So
everybody else was the bulls fan. I was basically like
Mike bad. But Mike like, I'm over here with Zeke them.

Speaker 14 (01:43:59):
And peeps.

Speaker 15 (01:44:00):
So y'all like stories, get your story about my pistons.
How wired I am? Right my second year, we're playing Utah, y'all,
remember called my alone elbowed Isaiah Thompson, split him open.

Speaker 22 (01:44:16):
Remember that he was leaking right way before you was,
way before I was ever in the league. I just
want to set this and never thought I was gonna
be in the in the in the NBA to begin with.

Speaker 15 (01:44:28):
But I remember he had him leaking right were playing Utah,
were in Jersey on the break, Johnstock and drop that
thing off to him. I go right upside called my
alone boom, laying him out, and he didn't get up
and do nothing. I was like, oh, these motherfuckers souff

(01:44:52):
out here like and Jerry Sloan God rest the man soul.
Oh you motherfucker, I kick you. And I was like
he tried to take up foreign car and the car
didn't do nothing. I was like, but that was physique,
you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 14 (01:45:07):
Way later.

Speaker 15 (01:45:09):
Wired from Cliff like, oh listen off, bro, like and
that started that started what it like.

Speaker 1 (01:45:20):
Nuts way back then. See, I told you all though
they had nothing to do with him.

Speaker 15 (01:45:25):
Nothing, And I told Isaiah this story way after the
like when it happened, like what I did.

Speaker 1 (01:45:30):
Do you think but the pistons and all that does that?
Does that influence the way you play?

Speaker 14 (01:45:35):
Absolutely? In my environment that I grew up in, it
was that.

Speaker 15 (01:45:40):
Yeah, like I'm seeing dude fight over travel call yeah,
no question and get back to playing.

Speaker 14 (01:45:47):
Double drip whatever it was. Game point.

Speaker 15 (01:45:49):
Listen, this is my environment and I'm seeing this the
way they play. Oh yeah, it's acceptable. Yeah, it's acceptable
there at the highest level doing it. So when I'm
doing it in high school, Dude.

Speaker 14 (01:46:04):
Some of the ship that I did, Bro, I know
you nuts, man, nuts. I think about it.

Speaker 15 (01:46:10):
Dog, If I one of my boys do that, Listen, man,
I'm gonna take him out of the game and him
going in the bathroom, dog, and I'm gonna handle him
like he's grown.

Speaker 14 (01:46:18):
Some ship I did in high school. I think about it. Man,
something I was woke, he.

Speaker 1 (01:46:24):
Said, woke therapy.

Speaker 14 (01:46:26):
Therapy ain't.

Speaker 15 (01:46:30):
Because you brocause I think about it, man, Like I'd
be sitting there telling him like she she asked me, like,
did you ever used to box?

Speaker 14 (01:46:40):
She like, like you give me like that you fight her.

Speaker 15 (01:46:43):
I said, I probably should have, Like, but nah, man,
just some of this stuff I think back. Man, I'm
like some was yeah, just environment dog and then watching
them dudes go upside people's head. Man, what me and
got along so well when the Big Three started, like
I was all just playing and all that.

Speaker 14 (01:47:04):
Soon as you got around each other, it was like, yo,
that my guy like yeah, like and I told he,
like what he say?

Speaker 5 (01:47:13):
You know?

Speaker 14 (01:47:15):
So he tried to trade for me when I was
with the Nuggets. Man, they wouldn't do it.

Speaker 1 (01:47:19):
Where was he at New York?

Speaker 14 (01:47:22):
This is before the.

Speaker 15 (01:47:22):
Mellow thing, all that way, before that went down, Before
he went there. He was trying to get it done.
I told him what I did. I saw him on vacation.
Somewhere on vacation. I saw him and I ran it.

Speaker 14 (01:47:33):
Down for him.

Speaker 1 (01:47:42):
Welcome to the show, Charles Oakley.

Speaker 5 (01:47:44):
Before we get to the the Knicks part of your career,
although you were there at the beginning of my thoughts
on the last dance and and what you saw and
what you learned, because obviously not the whole time there,
but you played during that.

Speaker 8 (01:47:58):
I mean the last dance was something for people was
at home because you know, pandemics, they can see all
different sizes of different people. But I think, I mean
a lot of it was like I don't know how
true some of it was, but I think that a
lot of people, you know, like like Gary Payton, you know,
he probably wouldn't happen with Mike.

Speaker 1 (01:48:17):
What Mike said about he said a lot about a
lot of people.

Speaker 8 (01:48:19):
This got in Isaiah, Isaiah's talk about hisself. I don't
nobody like Isaiah. No, I don't know what's up with Isaiah,
just too sneaky. You know, he always thinks he I
ain't do it, but he did it. You know, we
got we got your on camera.

Speaker 1 (01:48:35):
You did camera camera.

Speaker 8 (01:48:38):
You still would to be Mike, Mike do not want
to be your friend? Is I'm telling you for the
fifth time he.

Speaker 1 (01:48:42):
Did not want to be your friend. You know, stay
on ESPN, keep talking on t N T.

Speaker 8 (01:48:48):
Mike's just you know, now you're trying to say everybody
better than Like, it's okay, you not better than mine.

Speaker 1 (01:48:54):
He came in your city and took your city. That's
why you really mad. He took over with Chicago. I know,
I love it. I love it.

Speaker 5 (01:49:11):
One thing I wanted to ask, obviously, Pip dropped the
book recently and there had a lot of m just
slander in that. What were your thoughts on Well, I mean,
like I said, a lot of the last dance, it
was a carry over.

Speaker 1 (01:49:22):
So you know, Scotty got his book, I got my book.

Speaker 8 (01:49:25):
I don't know, didn'ybody throw me on the bridge over
the bridge, so I was just myself. I think Scottie
probably feel like he was more to Mike than these guys.
He should have got more action than Dennis rob and
Steve Kurr. I think Dennis got too much play and
Kurt I mean, I mean Scotty did a lot. I
mean Curry might have hit two shots in eight years. Dennis,

(01:49:48):
I mean he.

Speaker 1 (01:49:48):
Did his thing.

Speaker 8 (01:49:49):
We bound, but he was the asshole. Yeah you Dennis,
you know what it is. I'm then enforced acclaim you
found but but no, just I just try to keep
it Realnis know what it is.

Speaker 10 (01:50:07):
I kind of felt like as time passes and you know,
people kind of give Scotty his props. I just I
just think he kind of going too far with it
now like to and everybody have their opinion. Bro, you
know what I'm saying, But from from one minute, you're
saying nothing is nobody's better than.

Speaker 1 (01:50:25):
Jordan, He's the best.

Speaker 10 (01:50:26):
To the point, I guess when after like you said,
after this last dance came out, now you having second
thoughts of saying all this stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:50:31):
Like I'm kind of feeling like that ain't genuine. I
feel like he going through someone. He mad at Mike
about it.

Speaker 8 (01:50:36):
Yeah, I think myself, I think it's something that off
the court right because Scotty he said what he said,
he got a little bit. I mean, when the everybody
call this guy to go and you ain't in the
top twenty five minutes scoring, it's hope, you just say
you're betting someone, but you got opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:50:51):
You know, I know, Scott I told to Scotty, you
know I ain't.

Speaker 8 (01:50:55):
You know, I used to talk to Mike after every
last you know, last day, like they shouldn't did anything.
You But Scotty, you know, he came out with his book,
he said a lot this and that, trying to compare
himself with Mike. I mean, like I said that, I
called Mike in uh in my book, I called Mike
and Lebron frost of flaking corn flakes. Yeah, so Scotty

(01:51:18):
to Mike, Scotty ain't better than Lebron.

Speaker 1 (01:51:22):
So my thing is.

Speaker 8 (01:51:23):
Scotty got a lot of you know, potential, the type
of skill that with Lebron. But I don't think Scotty
average over twenty points but maybe one time in his career, right,
So I mean, you know Scott, you know his wife,
you know his son passed. I mean, he was going
through a lot, so he could have you know, I
don't know. I'm trying to you know, I like Scotty,
but it's Mike. Hard to say. You're betten to go.

Speaker 1 (01:51:53):
The one and only.

Speaker 23 (01:51:54):
Craig and I was having a conversation about Pip and
I told I told him, I said to me, once
Scott he became one of the fiftieth best, his level
of confidence, not necessarily the way he played. He's playing
a top fifty before then he just didn't know it,
you feel me. He was under the influence of twenty three,

(01:52:16):
that this is how you do it. This is how
you do it, This is how you do it.

Speaker 2 (01:52:20):
I'm gonna drop you something.

Speaker 12 (01:52:21):
This is how you do it.

Speaker 4 (01:52:23):
So he little brother.

Speaker 23 (01:52:25):
Man, when he became top fifty, it became.

Speaker 1 (01:52:29):
What let's go.

Speaker 23 (01:52:30):
And I think to some degree that's still there in
that little rift. They haven't, but you know, Lord Willing,
it'll come together because everybody got children and your babies.

Speaker 1 (01:52:42):
Now, man, we're too old for that shit. You know
what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:52:45):
We too old, We too old, were too old for that.

Speaker 1 (01:52:49):
Now we're elders.

Speaker 23 (01:52:49):
Now we're olders to the point where we got to
be able to give something back in the level where hey, man,
if I can't give it to you.

Speaker 1 (01:52:57):
And see, I think you know the.

Speaker 23 (01:52:59):
Economic of America, the economics of.

Speaker 6 (01:53:05):
What is success?

Speaker 1 (01:53:07):
Isn't me having a billion? Is me having one hundred thousand?

Speaker 7 (01:53:11):
Isn't me having a hundred?

Speaker 1 (01:53:12):
What is so? In this thing?

Speaker 23 (01:53:15):
They put that idol in front of us, and we
all chase it so much. And when I when I
leave money on the table.

Speaker 1 (01:53:21):
It can be tough.

Speaker 23 (01:53:23):
And I think many times that when we leave money
on the table, money's left on the table. That those
little frackings come out, and then we have chaos.

Speaker 1 (01:53:41):
I got the one and only Kevin Durants.

Speaker 5 (01:53:43):
Man, you guys are going when and like I said,
understanding and being around and knowing Draymond, when that shit
happened in La, I'm like, yeah, damn, Like I understand
him because he's where's his heart on the sleeve, always
spreaks from the tough and most of the time it's right.
You mean, but the ship, he said, was over the

(01:54:04):
motherfucking line.

Speaker 1 (01:54:06):
So how did that happen?

Speaker 3 (01:54:07):
How to run me through that?

Speaker 1 (01:54:08):
I mean, it really came out of nowhere. I didn't.

Speaker 13 (01:54:10):
I mean, we the play happened. I was going to
grab a rebound, he came and grabbed it. I'm thinking
he gonna just toss it two me and me run
up court and I'm gonna shoot the shot.

Speaker 1 (01:54:19):
The whole world thinking that not just you, everybody, I
come off the peel. My nigga would come off the
rock right there. Everybody in the world. Whew, he was
supposed to come.

Speaker 3 (01:54:27):
Off the red.

Speaker 13 (01:54:27):
Everybody knew that, and we all figured that that would happen.
And then when it didn't, I was kind of shocked.
And then I was just like, oh, Dre Lake, let
me see that.

Speaker 1 (01:54:34):
You know what I'm saying, what are you doing? Like
what you're doing? And then he turned it over.

Speaker 13 (01:54:39):
I'm like, I'm just so confused at that point because
he never ever did nothing like that before, and everybody
on the bench was confused too.

Speaker 1 (01:54:45):
And then we came back.

Speaker 13 (01:54:46):
Then I just heard him screaming, and I was like,
hold up, and he usually screaming when he come back
to the bench, but what is he saying? Then he
started going off, and I'm just like, maybe it's because
I was like fucking pissed that he ain't give me
the rock because I didn't say nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:55:00):
It was just in my body length. I was just
clapping it.

Speaker 10 (01:55:02):
Just liked Clay was pissed. Clay pissed too, like throw
one of us the rock. You know, you can't hit
the house in the kitchen either, the letters shoot the bitch.

Speaker 1 (01:55:12):
So man.

Speaker 13 (01:55:12):
Then he started coming off the top with all of
that stuff, and I'm just thinking, I'm like Draymond was
it is actually my friend, like somebody I can call
when I'm going through anything, like yo, bro, great dude,
come through, Like bro, let's hang out tonight, like and
for him to say that type of shit to me,
it just threw me for a loop and it was
just really I just started isolating myself after that because
I didn't feel like, you know, they suspended Draymon and it.

Speaker 1 (01:55:34):
Was just like they had to so it won't look
bad to everybody else.

Speaker 13 (01:55:39):
And then nobody talked to me about it or really
like we never really came to an agreement that we
didn't even we didn't even voice our nobody as a whole,
because it happened in front of the whole team, and
nobody really talked about it.

Speaker 1 (01:55:51):
It was just swept under the rug.

Speaker 13 (01:55:52):
And to me, it's just like we're family, were supposed
to like even if he said that we can move
past it.

Speaker 1 (01:55:57):
Let's all talk about it.

Speaker 13 (01:55:58):
Let's just say how we all felt about that moment,
because that's a huge moment in this whole dynasty. Like
you know what I mean, don't just sweep it under
the rug because we want to win. That's the reason
why we're not gonna win, you know what I mean.
So I was like, let's just all talk about this.
It's not that big of a deal, Like just put
it out on the table. We can move past it
and when that didn't happen. Now, it was just like
fuck it, let me just hoop and worry about myself,

(01:56:19):
and we went on.

Speaker 1 (01:56:20):
We'll see that.

Speaker 10 (01:56:21):
I think that probably hurt y'all because if y'all would
have came out and he would have heard more people saying, bro,
you should have passed the ball, Bro, you should have
passed the ball, I think he would have came outside
himself and realized, like, you know what made by overreacting. Yeah,
he never got a chance to say that.

Speaker 13 (01:56:35):
Yeah, I mean Draymond. We all know what Draymond is,
and it's like, it's not it's fine that you can that.
You want to do that, and you want to show
your emotions and win when you're sleep, that's fine, But
when it's over the line sometime, let's just talk about
it so next time you can tone it down just
a bit. And I feel like we didn't have the
opportunity to do so because we were so focused on
trying to just move forward and win.

Speaker 1 (01:56:55):
And I get that too, but it's like if we're
a family and we're gonna ash it out and then
we go move forward it.

Speaker 13 (01:56:59):
Yeah, we didn't want two chips together bigger than like say,
this is just some ship we could sit down and
talk about.

Speaker 10 (01:57:05):
That's why certain words gonna come out too. Like we
brothers and I got into it. I got a fist
fights my brothers. But certain words you don't say, you
know what I'm saying. Certain words they're saying, you know
when that line.

Speaker 5 (01:57:15):
Is y Well, I think he realized that too, that
you mean, like I said, I think us knowing we
we all know him. I think he realized he fucked
up here, cross the line.

Speaker 1 (01:57:22):
But that's what kind of duty is.

Speaker 5 (01:57:23):
But that even makes the point more like, let's motherfucker
sit down. I can really talk about.

Speaker 6 (01:57:28):
This, all of us.

Speaker 13 (01:57:29):
Me and him sat down and talked about it, and
we kind of you know, I gave him my piece
on it, and he told me how he felt on it.

Speaker 1 (01:57:36):
But I'm like it happened in front of the whole team.
That's everybody. Everybody got to talk about because everybody fucked
with each other. It wasn't like you were forcing it.
Everybody really fucked with each other, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:57:45):
So let's sit down and haves that.

Speaker 10 (01:57:46):
And again everybody was thinking you were passing the rock, bro.

Speaker 1 (01:57:51):
It ain't just they ain't just Clay.

Speaker 10 (01:57:53):
Everybody in the world thought you was coming off the
rock and you was wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:57:57):
Just to man, you was wrong. That's and that's what
That's the whole thing. I think. I think that he
had too much pride in the fact that he turned
it over and that made him react that way.

Speaker 13 (01:58:05):
Yeah, but we know shit, turnovers happened exactly. Play makers
on the team, nobody really care if we won or
lost that game in the first place. It was just
like we I mean, we're in that situation. Let's just
go ahead, try to finish it the right way, you know.
But at the end of the day, nobody really cared
about that win on lass.

Speaker 1 (01:58:22):
You know what I'm saying. But this too great.

Speaker 10 (01:58:24):
Coaches, when you don't get a shot at the end
of the game like that, they be pissed. Greg Popovich,
He'll he'll sit you ass down the whole game. If
you fuck up a play coming out of time, I
don't get a shot.

Speaker 13 (01:58:33):
Up at the game, oh yeah, I mean, ship that
doesn't make anybody pissed if you just turn it over
the game.

Speaker 5 (01:58:38):
I think the media kind of saw that as an
entry way to kind of start dividing these motherfuckers are
so good.

Speaker 1 (01:58:45):
What can we start doing? What can we start developing
to chink this armor?

Speaker 5 (01:58:50):
No, I got it like I was only there with
y'all for three months, but I always saw to me
when I looked like, I was like, this is this
is some cold ship.

Speaker 1 (01:58:56):
Man. The media is cold. Man.

Speaker 5 (01:58:57):
You pay attention to these motherfuckers. They're really telling you
what doing right in front of your face. But you
can't do nothing because they blame me. That shit up
and put a bow on it.

Speaker 1 (01:59:04):
It was always to me KD and the Warriors.

Speaker 5 (01:59:09):
It was never the Warriors. Kevin Durantz a part of
that team, and I was looking at it.

Speaker 13 (01:59:14):
I was like, hold up, So d West came the
same time I came, but he's a warrior and I'm not.
It makes no sense. Javel McGee same way. He's a
war like Ian Clark. He was there before me, but
he left. He didn't win the second championship with us,
but he's like and it made no sense to me,
And I'm like, the media is just trying so hard
to separate this thing. I was just like, y'all for what, Like,

(01:59:36):
you didn't do that with Lebron and d Wade and Bob.
You didn't do that with those guys. You didn't do
that with KG and Paul Pearson. You ain't trying to
separate them. It's like, oh, why why are you trying
to separate me from the rest of the team, And
you actually are making this your job, your duty to
do so is to push this narrative every day. People
called me wild for calling it out, but I'm just like, no,

(01:59:57):
I think it's corny.

Speaker 1 (01:59:58):
It is what it is.

Speaker 5 (01:59:59):
In fact, he's speak on to makesure Like you said,
the fact you speak on the bullshit and you.

Speaker 1 (02:00:02):
See it, you're bad. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 (02:00:04):
It was just like, I'm this person you're I'm just
supposed to y'all one of the greatest players ever played.

Speaker 1 (02:00:09):
I'm just supposed to let it go. That's what you
want me to do because.

Speaker 13 (02:00:12):
Y'all supposed to be messengers to the fans, and they
looking at y'all, y'all can easily like brainwash people with
y'all bullshit and it's not about you, and media got
nobody cares about you.

Speaker 1 (02:00:21):
It's not about you. It's about you. Go out of it.

Speaker 13 (02:00:23):
Yeah, you're trying to put your whole style and flair
on something that got nothing to do with you. This
game gonna be here before, This game was here before you,
is gonna be hit way after you.

Speaker 1 (02:00:32):
So nobody cares about you.

Speaker 13 (02:00:33):
They don't care about me that much that forty years,
fifty years, they're gonna lose that next thing, you know
what I'm saying, So like, get out the way.

Speaker 5 (02:00:40):
That's why it's so important now because you think back
in the day pre social media, whatever they put out
is the truth, and we never had a platform, you
know what i mean. So that's why I love it
when you're out here. I didn't like to use the
burner phone. I would have said, fuck it, I'm Kevin durantmfug.
I'm gonna cush you out and you talk some shit.
I'm gonna talk some shit. I'm gonna speak my mind.

Speaker 1 (02:00:55):
I'm still gonna do the burner thing. I'm still still
on it.

Speaker 17 (02:00:59):
Yeah, there's some ship that you just gotta But I'm
saying he's suposed.

Speaker 3 (02:01:06):
The old ways.

Speaker 4 (02:01:07):
But I'm saying, fucking bro.

Speaker 5 (02:01:08):
I'm saying, if i'm you like you know, if you
come from me, I'm coming back show.

Speaker 13 (02:01:13):
Certain people are gonna come back on my regular account.

Speaker 1 (02:01:15):
But if I'm try and do my things. Look out,
look I got the burn is still out there.

Speaker 4 (02:01:21):
It's lurking.

Speaker 1 (02:01:22):
I just slipped up that one time slipped up

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