September 22, 2020 • 41 mins
Actress and Country Music singer Jana Kramer joins us today to answer the question, “does time heal all wounds?” The Dancing With The Stars and One Tree Hill alum is honest and real in this interview, and she does not sugar-coat her painful journey from rage to forgiveness over the infidelities of her husband, former NFL tight end Mike Caussin. The singer and mother-of-two admits what it was that finally made her decide not divorce him. Jana also tells us about her new book "The Good Fight," which she co-authors with her husband, and she reveals the emotional crisis she grappled with while writing the chapter on faith.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi there, it's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce service.
I've been practicing family law for over twenty years and
I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.
(00:22):
Along the way, I often have to remind people to
lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Rules simply don't apply. Because all's fair in love and war.
So welcome to the All's Fair Podcasts. Fasten your seatbelt
and let's go. Hi, Welcome to All's Fair. I'm Laura
Wasser and I'm Johnny Rains, and today's show is all
(00:44):
about infidelity. So, Laura, would you say that that's the
number one cause of divorce? No, I wouldn't. I mean,
every case brings surprises and sometimes disappointment and sometimes delight
as to how people conduct themselves. But I really do
think that infidelity is more of a symptom of something
(01:05):
else that's going on. And so again, maybe that's like
the final straw. But obviously, if somebody is looking outside
of the relationship, whether it's a online infidelity, emotional infidelity
like we hear about, or actual sexual infidelity. There's something
else going on. And so I'm not going to pinpoint
infidelity as the reason or the number one cause of divorce.
What would you say just from your experience? You know,
(01:27):
and I've just probably changes every day, but or at
this moment, what do you think is the number one
cause for divorce? Growing apart? Growing apart, So that has
to do with communication. That can have to do with
financial issues. People say, oh, if you're gonna remodel your
house or build a home, then you're going to get divorced. Obviously,
if a tragedy happens in your family, the death of
a child is sickness. But any of these things cause
(01:48):
a couple to grow apart, and that is when likely
you will find yourself in an extra marital or extracurricular relationship.
And so it's just hard to really say that's what
it's because of. And I would say, and I know
I'm being super general, but yes, growing apart and not
dealing with issues as they arise is going to be
the number one cause of divorce. Anyway, the history of
(02:11):
how the relationship has broken down is what's one of
the most fascinating things to me, and the things people
do out of hurt and rage, like setting your excess
car on fire, or we know this happened with one
friend of ours cutting the arm or leg off of
every item of clothing in his or her closet, completely
inappropriate social media postings. This is the stuff that I mean,
(02:32):
I do like to talk about, and I think if
you hear about it and you experience it and you
let it wash over you, maybe you don't actually need
to do those things yourself agreed, agreed. I guess some
people just reach their limit, though, but then others seem
to have the ability to tolerate all kinds of bullshit totally.
For example, speaking of of of shocking. In the Sunday
(02:55):
Styles section of the New York Times, there's a great
column that is about social cues and there is a
segment written by Philip Gaines that forces the question, why
dat someone who doesn't care about your health and safety?
It's babe, are you trying to kill me? And it's
about a couple man go where did he go? To?
(03:17):
Loom in Mexico? And you know Tllom's beautiful. It's kind
of more of a yoga treat and a green kind
of but it can be a little rustic. And so
she said, I'm not going because I've got autoimmune deficiencies
and we're in the middle of COVID, etcetera. And then
she would see him posting things and sending pictures of
him out no mask, hanging out bars, partying, taking shots,
(03:40):
and then he came back and he didn't test it
in quarantine. Um, you know, it may be magnified now
that we're in a pandemic, but maybe that's a good
thing because it's pretty easy to see. And I think
the the author that wrote back to this person that
wrote in said this, but maybe not as eloquently as
I'm about to, is a dick. Well, he does point
(04:02):
out the question, why would you want a boyfriend who
doesn't care about keeping you or himself safe? So, you know,
and that extends to be on you know, the pandemic,
somebody that's out there having unsafe sex, somebody that's out
there doing things that are inconsiderate and that couldn't put
you in harm's way, both physically and emotionally. No not okay, Yeah,
(04:24):
it's like I was saying about the tolerance level that
people have. Um, you shouldn't tolerate that. How about the
next one? This one blew me away when you sent
this one to me, savage love when divorce is not
an option, I don't know why it's not an option,
but she said it's not. So there's this woman, she's
been married for several years, and again it's her writing.
So it's her writing her real life experience about the
(04:47):
sometimes physical but certainly emotional abuse that she suffered at
the hands of her husband of many years, and the
fact that he had and admitted extramarital affairs and that
she wasn't allowed to She totally got catfished by this
one guy that like was pretending to be her friend
and said, you should totally do it. You should do it,
(05:08):
you should have an affair. So then, because she was
being so pressured by him, she said, fine, I had
an affair. And then the next call was from her husband.
The guy totally told her husband. Mean this woman again,
I don't mean to be an asshole, but she sounds
a little bit naive or vulnerable. And and I thought
that the advice giver gave her some very good advice.
I get that leaving a marriage could really um make
(05:31):
both parties suffer financially. But that's no way to live.
And maybe it's very easy for me to say, you know,
in my castle here in West Hollywood, but I'm sure
you can figure out something. Money isn't everything. Take the
right steps that you need to get your ducks in order.
But but living, I mean, certainly, if it gets to
be domestic violence, you know, or or your your health
(05:54):
and safety. But even the years of this kind of
mind fucking that was going on with this woman, get out, lady,
life is short. Get out. Yeah, that's my advice, very
good advice. I mean this Mr Dan Savage, who's the writer,
and I guess response to this lady says to detach,
But I think your version of detaching is probably the
(06:17):
way to go. And again, just so that it's clear,
I think the reason that Dan says detached as opposed
to divorces, she she wasn't there yet and there was
two is just crushing the thought, overwhelming, the thought of
leaving the marriage, leaving the financial comfort that she had,
which again both of them worked, so both of them
needed to be contributing. It wasn't like she had just
married the super wealthy guy, and so detaching, I feel
(06:40):
will enable her to kind of take the next step
she needs to take in order to get out of
the marriage and get to a safer space. Detach meaning
you could really read in this article how much all
of these you know things pained her so much? I mean,
she kept it was like she kept getting hit, she
kept getting back up again. Detached meaning and the next
(07:02):
blow move on. You can read that article on our blog.
It's from the Queen City Nerve and that's written by
Dan Savage. It is said that time heals all wounds,
but I wonder if that's really true. Infidelity does affect relationships,
but as illustrated by the woman in the Queen City
Nerve article, many people can make their peace with it.
(07:22):
I mean, the question is how long can they make
their peace with it? Time healing all wounds. Notwithstanding, as
Ralph waldo Emerson warns, beware what you set your heart upon,
for surely it shall be yours. In other words, careful
what you wish for, and don't necessarily work so hard
to make something work. If it's not working. In any event,
(07:42):
if it's broken, fix it for better for worse. And
until death do you Part are just some of the
things people promise when they get married. Today's guest is
someone who exemplifies these promises. She's an actress, an award
winning singer, a wife, and the mother of two. She's
an entrepreneur and the host of the award winning podcast
wind Down, and she's also the author of the new
(08:02):
book The Good Fight, which she co wrote with her husband.
She's beloved for being authentic and multi talented, and today
she's going to help us answer the question does time
he'll all wounds? Welcome to All's Fair. Jane Kramer, Hi,
thanks for having me. I'm so excited. It's a good question,
though I know it is. I've been thinking about it
(08:23):
a lot lately because I have a lot of time
to think about things these days. Johnny definitely wants me
to ask you about your birthday because it's the same
birthday as Johnny December two, and Britney spears, I've been
told my entire life, have you too, Johnny? Not Johnny's
entire life, because Johnny was already like an adult by
the time Britney's years is born. But yes, for many years,
(08:46):
I know I'm like, Okay, I get it, and it's
funny because I um, Jamie Lynn Spears, her younger sister,
has become a friend of mine, and she's you know,
I'm like, for my entire life, I've almost hated Brittany
because every birthday, I'm like, I know, Britney Sears's birthday,
but it's also mine and Johnny's, So Johnny's. It's kind
of nice that you have somebody to think about now
(09:08):
who's lower on their celebrity totem hole than you. Sorry, Johnny, Sorry,
but you are all right. So you're you have two kids,
Jolie and Jace, four and one, and they're both with
your current husband, Mike. Yes, as far as I know,
as far as you know, and you're from Michigan. Yes.
And I did not know this about you. Before you
(09:30):
became a singer, actress, entrepreneur, author, podcast host. You were
an ice skater. I used to figure skape for thirteen
years and it wasn't until my parents divorced that I
had to quit because it was like, okay, I'm not
going to the Olympics and my mom couldn't afford it anymore,
and she was working three jobs, and it was like, okay,
Mom stopped like, you don't. You don't need to keep
(09:51):
sending me to skating, It's fine, And then I did it.
Then I started waitressing when I was fourteen to try
to continue on. And then I'm like, you know what
I'd rather. I think I'm showing up not for the
hockey players instead of the ice time. So I'm like,
i gotta like, I'm done. Can I tell you, Janna?
By the way, I also am a roller skater, another
Sagittarian thing we have in common. By the way, I
(10:13):
just want to throw that in, dude, I still um
rollerblade like I don't care if it went out in
the nineties. I'm still like around Crockett Park here in
Nashville and I'm roller blade around like I love I
love it. I love it. Yeah, strong ankles to I think,
guys okay. And I also didn't realize that you were
a country music singer. I did, Yeah, I was. So.
(10:35):
I grew up singing with my dad like he was
in a bunch of bands. And I was working on
a show called One Tree Hill in Wilmington, North Carolina,
I remember, and I was writing some songs and we
were so close to Nashville, so I was flying back
and forth to Nashville, and you know, I gave some
of the songs to the creator and I was like,
I don't know if these are good, but will you
(10:56):
just listen to him, let me know, give me any feedback.
And he ended up turning my carric or into a singer.
And from there I got a record deal, and you know,
I toured the country for five six years and it
was it was a lot of fun. Like I you know,
I had to platinum selling singles and one top New
Female artist at the c m AS in two thousand thirteen.
That's huge. How old were you in two Oh? I'm
(11:20):
I'm I'm I'm edging on forty here, so I'm gonna
be thirty seven in December. Second, of course, that's not
edging on forty, edging on forties like your thirty nine.
You're edging on I remember thirty seven. What a good
year that wash. I'm excited for thirty seven. But yeah, no,
so I um but no, I loved it. It was
just you know, I love music, it's touring. I I
(11:40):
stopped that once I had my second kid. It was
just too hard and it was a lonely life and
I just you know, I will. I went obviously back
into acting, and I released singles every once in a
while just for kind of fun and whoever wants to
listen that's still out there. That's a you know, Cramer
music fan. But besides that, and it's it's just it was.
It was a lot of fun um and I still
do enjoy it, but it's not where my passion is.
(12:02):
So and you and you and Mike live in Tennessee now,
the kids we do. Yeah, we moved to l A
for a couple of years, and then I feel like
the industry just changed the last couple of years where
it's everything was on tape and I'm like, what am
I doing here? So I talked to my managers Mark
and Steve and was like, can I move because I
can't afford a house here, and I really would like
to go back to Nashville if possible, because I fell
(12:23):
in love with it when I was doing music. And
they're like, go, you're fine, Like it's an easy flight.
If something really important comes up, we can you know,
you can fly in. So we love it, like we
can actually afford a nice house and have a backyard
and schools are great. So I feel really blessed that
we're here and you're one of the few actors that
(12:44):
we've spoken with over the past six months that actually
has filmed something. You just filmed a Christmas special for
a Lifetime. Yes. Yeah, it was crazy because we I
was up in Canada filming a movie for Hallmark and
it was right all when Cove it was happening, and
then we we got shut down. So we filmed two
scenes and then we got shut down. And then with
(13:05):
this movie, yeah, I was I was nervous at first,
but I was you know, I'm like, okay, if they're
they're taking all the precautions, like I want to get
back to work, like I need to work for the family.
And so we um, you know, we started filming and
you know, every two days it was you know, no
swabs up the nose and um. But it was it
was a lot of anxiety. I mean we shut down
a bunch of times, you know. I unfortunately was one
(13:28):
of the reasons we had to shut down. I got
pneumonia UM, which I still think it was COVID and
maybe just a negative test because I've never had pneumonia.
So I'm like, I mean, I had to go to hospital,
like I was down and out. So I'm like, how
is this? Like I've never had this, so I'm not.
I'm pretty sure it was, but you know who knows.
So yeah, So it was just you know, everyone's wearing masks.
I don't know what half the people looked like on
(13:49):
my set, but it was a lot of fun. It was.
It was like it was like a nervous fun, like
I was so anxious, but I was so happy to
be back on set. I love it. Yeah, everybody that
I know that's in that world is just going so
sture crazy right now. And then in two thousands sixteen,
you are on season twenty three of Dancing with the Stars.
You really are like a renaissance woman. I mean, is
(14:11):
there anything that you can't do? Are you a shitty cook?
Just be honest, I mean, can you cook? I cannot cook? Okay,
good that my husband I can't either, but I just
okay the cooking well, and he says like this is
kind of a well not kind of a joke but
not really. But I almost divorced him right before, like
the COVID stuff, and I, um, I was like, you know,
(14:33):
when COVID hit, I we probably would have gotten back
together because our kids would have starved, like I'm not
I would have starved like we would have been eating cereal.
And so every time he cooks, he's like, one of
the reasons you keep me around, and I'm like, that's
not a lie. Definitely one of them. Hey they have
everybody has to add value, okay, and then tell us
a little bit about moms and babes. Box. I love that.
(14:55):
It's fun. It was just I have a really hard
time buying things for myself. I mean, I still have
clothes in my closet that are from like freaking you know,
nineteen twenty and I'm just like, I never wear it.
But I just have a really hard time buying things
for myself, and you know, I will buy everything for
my kids and for my husband. So that's why I
came up with the idea, like, okay, a box subscription
for things for mom and the kids. So you don't
(15:17):
write guilty, just bootstrap. I let I love it. It's fine.
And then it just shows up every month and quarterly,
so quarterly, spring, summer. That's awesome, and it kind of
grows with your kids. Yeah, I mean you can. We
had we had three different boxes. But girl, that's like
the whole side of that business is like it's a lot.
I'm just like, so now we just have it where
(15:38):
it's like, okay, if your kids between this age and
this age, it's a good box for you. If not,
buy it for a friend, get out all right. And
then in May of eighteen, you started the Wine w
h I n E Down podcast with your husband, Mike
tell us. So, actually it didn't start with my husband.
It started just with me and this other girl, Jen
(16:00):
and um, and my husband honestly didn't want any part
of it, and I was like, that's fine if you
ever want to be a guest, like come on on
or you know, come on the show. And he ended
up coming on and people loved it and I loved it,
and it was really good for us. So the lady
that was on it was she was just the producer
at the time, but she was kind of filling in
until we found a spot and um, you know, he
(16:21):
came on and he's like, can I do this with you?
And I'm like please, like, I love it, and it
kind of became our couples therapy in a way, and
it was it's really strengthened our marriage to be able
to talk about things and be so open about stuff,
and you know, sometimes it can affect certain things, but
you know, all in all, it's been really good for us. Well,
let's let's talk about that a little bit, because that
(16:42):
kind of bridges into what this episode is about. Your
most recent episode, Emotionally Afarable, you guys spoke about somebody
not only how unproductive Mike was while you're away, you know,
how much cooking can you do, but also that there
was a kind of a good looking a star that
was on the set of the movie and he became
(17:03):
a good friend. And I guess you guys discussed on
the podcast how Mike felt about that. Yes, well he yeah,
he was, which kind of shocked me. Like he wasn't
jealous at all, and and that's and you know a
lot of people would be like, why do you care,
Like that's amazing that your husband isn't jealous, Like that's great,
and I'm like, yes, but for me, and I even
talked about this with my therapist last week, I was like,
(17:25):
I want to know that like he I don't know,
Like I just I want that energy that not that
he'd be like totally jealous and like mean or not
let me talk to him, not like that, but just
have a little bit like hey, this is my girl,
you know, and and a little like not so confident
you know that He's like, well I trust you, and
I'm like great, but like you know, it was more
(17:49):
about him having confidence in you though, and and and
himself than it was about him not caring if anything happened, Like,
if anything had happened, he would have been very upset. Yes,
I would, I hope so. But then again, sometimes my
therapist brought this up. She's like, do you think he
wants to even the playing field because of his affairs?
And I'm like, maybe you're right, And you know he's
(18:09):
like he says no, but I still don't believe him,
Like he hates that he's, you know, always the one
that is the perpetrator in our relationship. So I mean,
I bet you he would like it, but it wouldn't
feel good, right, And how how does it feel for
you knowing that you might have that like one or
two or seven get out of jail free cards? I mean,
(18:30):
how does that work? I mean it was a random
number of listeners. I don't know anything just seven sounded
and the seventh sounds good. I mean a little more,
but like you know, I'm just saying for me, you know,
I don't know. I just don't think I can. It's
I have. I think I have major love addiction qualities
in me. So I have to be really hard with like,
(18:53):
I have to be really careful with that, because even
when I do go on a set or when I
do get around people, I get very much like love me,
tell me, I'm enough, tell And then and then I
get sucked into that wanting that person to have those
feelings about me, even though I don't want them to,
but I put it out there. So I have Like
my twenties, I was just a wreck with that, and
so now I feel like once I hit thirty, I've
(19:14):
like the last six years, I've just been trying to
just like practice like being confident in myself and not
not wanting outside not having outside validation to affirm me.
And it's like then the hardest thing for me, because
I constantly crave outside validation, right and and then you know,
putting it out there that like you know, I should
put it, I should put it out there that I
(19:34):
am very taken and then I wouldn't even entertain it.
But sometimes I'm like, I want a little like love,
you know. And and again it's also it's a double
edged sword. But my guess is looking at you, hearing
you listing your accomplishments, you've always gotten that outside validation.
So it's not like you've been barking up the wrong treaty.
Like whenever you put it out there, it comes back,
(19:55):
and so it feels good. And so between the podcast
and your book, which is coming out, The Good Fight, Okay,
you and Mike seem to do a lot of introspection discussing.
You've discussed the past, You've discussed the relationships. Uh, Johnny
did a little bit of research, and so we know
that there it's not always been smooth sailing. So you
(20:17):
had your daughter, You guys got married in two thousand fifteen.
Then you had Jolie in two thousand and sixteen, and
then apparently that same year US Weekly broke the news
that Mike had cheated on you with multiple women. So
you guys separated. How do you come back from that?
I mean, how does that how? Because I people ask
me all the time as a divorce attorney and as
(20:37):
the host of the show and the you know ceo
of it's over easy. All I'm dealing with his divorce,
and so people say, can you can you overcome this?
Can a relationship overcome this? Does time heal? So let's
get it from the proverbial horse's mouth. Can you overcome it?
I mean, I think anything's possible. Um, and I think
something like that we talked about in our book The
good fight is it has to be two people constantly
(20:59):
working together and on themselves as well. Like Mike would
have never stayed if I didn't change how I treated him.
I mean I mother f him for the first year,
like I was mean, I was nasty. I was just like,
f you, like you did this to us, Like how
could you do this? Like look at our daughter? Like
I was awful. And you know, eventually he was like,
(21:21):
you have to forgive me or I can't do this,
or you have to like start forgiving because it's not
fair for me to just be shamed. And I hear that,
I'm like, no, f you like, And but then I'm like, Okay,
I have to look in the mirror and say I
have to now do my work to move on and
and not saying there haven't been times when I've done
(21:43):
it wrong, and there are times when I want to
say things and I have to kind of bite my tongue.
But you know, for us, it's why I stayed in
the beginning was because of my daughter. You know, I
come from a divorce family. I looked at my daughter
and she was four months five months old, and I'm
just like, it's so unfair, and I did that. This
is another reason my state I was. It was like, man,
(22:05):
how unfair because of his addiction and his issues that
he now is going to tear my family apart, everything
that I've worked so hard for. Like no, and I
don't want another woman raising my child. I just I
just wasn't there. I'm like, I know every speck of
that girl, and I know her heart, and I like,
I like, she is my child. And so I was like,
(22:25):
I'm going to do everything I can to fight for
this family. And you know, it's it's been a rocky
four years and it's but I will say, with your
time thing, you know, we still have triggers that come up.
There's a hotel that I know he slept with his
a fair girl, and I have to drive past it
every day, you know, And there are times when I
(22:47):
call him and I was like, you know what, it
hurts today, Like it really really hurts, and it makes
me really sad, and I'm about to start ruminating and
going down the thing, and I need you just to
talk to me, and I need you to tell me
you're sorry, and I need you to and and it's
like he needs to help me. He helps me stay present,
like what's what is he doing today? How is he
you know, amazing today? And how are we better today?
(23:08):
And so it just it does I think time time
does heal because a year ago when we moved back
to Nashville, I sat in that parking lot and I
baled my eyes out. I'm not there today, So it
does like I have healed, you know, a year from
that day that we moved back. And I think it's
just one of those things where, you know, when everything
(23:29):
was discovered and I found out about everything, I would
think about it all the time and I was consumed
with how and you know what they looked like in
this and that? And now it's every you know, maybe
once a week I think about it for a split second,
and I don't go down the rabbit hole and I
and I just my my reminder to myself is just
stay present. Where what is he doing today? How is
(23:49):
he today? Because the man he was when I married
him it was not the man that I'm married to today.
And I love that you guys are there for each
other so many people just to kind of repress whatever
the feelings are. But hearing you say Joanna that you
call him and you go, i'm driving by it hurts
today and he kind of talks you through it. That's huge.
That is a huge communication. Yeah, but it's I mean,
(24:12):
and also the idea that you kind of have to
move through it before you can put it behind you,
like saying, Okay, I'm not sitting in the park a
lot weeping. Yeah. I think that is incredibly amazing that
you guys are able to do that. I'm sure that
that's made you stronger. If I asked him, and you
probably know because it sounds like you guys talk about
(24:33):
it a lot. Why does he cheat? I mean, there's
an addiction component to it, but does he not feel
good about himself? And you're not able to make him
feel good in that moment or he's not able to
accept that from you, so we girls elsewhere because just
like when you put stuff out into the world and
you like having that kind of admiration or flirting, he
just takes it a step further or is there something
else again if you know, because I'm assuming this has
(24:53):
been a subject of conversation, So definitely he is. He
is a sex addict. I mean how he's um, what
he would do to plan out his days and how
we would plan it is very addict like um. But
also because you know his childhood wounds, like he always
he never felt like he was good enough, and whenever
he was stressed, instead of grabbing an alcohol bottle, he
(25:14):
would need sex like his sex was his way of
or masturbation or porn or um or acting out was
his way of release and not holding onto things. And
then also the component of you know, feeling validated like
you said, or feeling enough um. And you know he
started watching porn really really early on as a as
(25:36):
a kid, and so that's what you know, he was like, oh, okay,
I'm not angry anymore. This helped me not be angry.
This helped me, and so it started his brain started
to say this is how then this is what you
need then to to not feel right and to release
what's the there's the chemicals. It's serotonin that something is
(25:57):
released when you have an orgasm, are feeling good, take
certain drugs or alcohol. So he was getting that as
a parent, how do you feel about porn now? And again,
your kids are little, but I can't imagine things are
going to be much more buttoned up by the time
they get to be the the age of where they're
on phones and iPads and computers. I mean, we have
(26:19):
there's a really great app that you know, Mike uses
for his program UM. It's called Covenant Eyes UM and
so that's something where it blocks those sites that he
can't go on. Uh. And you know, I think just
trying to instill healthy habits and your kids and you know,
being open about it and talking about it. Like I
know Mike had the conversation with his younger brother about it,
who's fourteen years younger, and just saying like, hey, man, like,
(26:42):
don't don't go straight to their like you know, talk
to a friend, go outside for a walk, like work out,
do something that you know can um not you know,
not like, don't release it in that way. And I
was like, well, I'm kind of hypocrite for saying that,
because every time I get stressed, I'm opening up at
a bottle of wine at the end of the day.
But I'm like, yeah, well, they're all addictions. Some are
(27:03):
more socially acceptable. I mean, you can't be, like, you know,
jacking off in public, and you still shouldn't be, like,
you know, making out with another person that's not your
spouse in public, but having a glass of wine is fine.
So we all have things that we deal with to
get by. So in your book The Good Fight, Jana
that you guys have a you speak about a faith component.
Tell tell our listeners a little bit about that. So
(27:25):
for me, I had a really hard time with that
chapter just because I've, um, you know, with my issues
that I had with my father, Praying to a father
just seemed just seemed wrong to me. I didn't I
didn't connect with it, um And honestly, if I'm being
completely honest, I was very um jealous of the connection
that Mike had with God. And you know, he got
re baptized and he just seemed, you know, so light.
(27:49):
And I remember sitting with our pastor, I'm like, I'm
I'm jealous and I'm I like that he gets to
feel so free and light while I'm sitting over here
still like in my pain, and you know, just like
all the crap, and and I don't know how to.
I don't know, I don't know how, and I'm afraid that,
you know, the man upstairs gonna is gonna leave me
and tell me that I'm not good enough, and you know,
(28:10):
and and not answer and not be there and and
I'm gonna end up being alone. And so that was
that was just really hard for me. This is All's
Fair with Laura Wasser on I Heart Radio. Our podcast
is about relationships, and it's brought to you by It's
over Easy, our online divorce service. And when it comes
to divorce, generally, there are no lightning bolts or magical
(28:32):
signs that tell you when it's time to get divorced.
Statistically speaking, half of all marriages won't end in divorce.
But when the bad starts out weighing the good on
a consistent basis, you may feel that taking the next
step is appropriate. It's a very personal decision and most
likely should be arrived upon with the help of some
kind of counseling or support. Today we're discussing the reasons
(28:53):
to stay or go with the efervescent, brilliant and multi
talented country singer and actress Janet Cramer Janna at the
top of the show. One of the intentions we set
is to answer the question does time heal all wounds
when it comes to matters of the heart? Tell us
in your experience, do you believe that time heals? I
really truly feel that time does heal. And the only
(29:16):
reason I say that is because if I was to
put myself back where I was four and a half
years ago, I would have said, you're crazy, that's not possible.
I'll never not feel this pain. I'll never not feel
how heavy this is and how terrible we are. And
I never thought that I wouldn't go every single second
of the day and not feel depressed or heavy, or
(29:39):
hate my husband, or just like feel the pain or
think about everything that went on. But I can say
now that since so much time has passed, it doesn't
feel as heavy. It doesn't the weight isn't there as much.
I mean, sure there's moments where I get triggered, but
I believe that with time and therapy and um two
(30:00):
people working on themselves, two people working together in the relationship.
The scars can heal. There's always going to be the wound,
but the scars can heal. And I think that's where
I think in time it can get better. I mean
anything in time, just when you lose a loved one,
when you lose like in time, it still hurts, but
you know in ten years from now, yes it's gonna
(30:22):
hurt when you think of it, but it's not going
to feel as heavy. In my opinion, I agree, let's
go a little bit further back. There's something in between
losing a loved one to death or something like a
family member and what you and Mike went through in
terms of repairing their relationships and and listeners. For those
of you who don't know, jan has actually been married
(30:42):
three times, well, I mean, would you really technically call
them marriages? I don't know, Like one was a drive
through I was nineteen, knew him for two weeks, Like ah,
I would really call it a marriage. The second one, yes,
I dated the guy for you know, three years, we
got married. It only lasted a week. It was one
of those that was Jonathan. You know, I represented Jonathan
(31:04):
when he got divorced. From Christina. Well, you know it's
really funny is that when I was going to divorce
my now husband, I tried to get you, but I couldn't.
I'm sorry what happened with somebody in my office? Mean,
do you know they like pawned me off on someone else,
And I'm like, look, I need the best if I'm
going to do this, you know, But I'm glad that
(31:24):
I was able to contribute to you guys staying together.
That's the way I see it. You can't have me,
you just have to stay in the marriage. That's what
we like to say. But technically, like I I say,
like this is my first marriage, because this is the
only marriage that I've truly worked to keep together. Like
this is like I can't count when I was nineteen
and stupid, or when you know, I married Jonathan, who
(31:44):
I adored this day, Like I were still really good friends.
He helps me with on my auditions, Like I love
his wife. His wife is my best friend. But like
we always joke and say we had a great party.
We weren't married, we didn't have a but at the
time it probably hurt, didn't it. I mean that breakup,
I mean we saw we have people that listen to
this show are often younger, and they may not have
been married before. They're listening because they want to listen
(32:06):
and hear about relationships. And I do want to give
them the benefit and the wisdom of our experience in that.
I mean, breakups hurt. They hurt when you when you
lose a family member, it hurts, when you have a
fight with the sibling or a uh, you know, falling
out with a business partner, it hurts. And so experiencing
that pain and and you know they say the only way,
(32:28):
the only way out is through feeling it, letting the
waves of that sadness wash over you again. I'm always
gonna miss my mom who died lust. I'm always going
to miss her, and during difficult times when I can't
pick up the phone and call her, it's even more difficult.
Um that being said, if time heals, and if it
really does, just take time, because so many people have
said to me, I just want to go to bed
(32:50):
and wake up in a year and it won't hurt
as bad anymore. But you have to live the year.
You have to. Yeah, you have to live it. You
have to go through it. But it sucks and it's
so hard. But like I will say, I think time
heals all wounds, but it still hurts, Like you're still
gonna hurt. It's just not gonna be as heavy as
it once was. And that's the thing, Like, you know,
any breakup, like you just feel like the world is over.
(33:11):
I mean, yeah, I remember breaking up with Jonathan and
being in the closet just bawling my eyes out, like
not wanting to feel that pain. But you know, now
it's like again, look at how time evolves and how
you grow and how you're like, wow, I'm glad that
I went through that because I'm a better person now today.
If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger, right
So once that's like my biggest motto ever that and
(33:35):
this too shall pass. So in your book, in The
Good Fight, you open up about why you think it's
important to be really truthful about the exciting and the
more i'll just say it, crappy parts of parenting, including
some of the recent responses you've had to mommy shamers
on social media. I just saw your baby boy. He's adorable.
But we know as moms it's not always like rainbows
(33:57):
and unicorns. There are moments. So you've been really upfront
and honest in this interview. So let's talk a little
bit about the mom shaming stuff that's gone on before
we get to the interrogatories. I mean, it's kind of
sad when you even say like mom shaming, because I
feel like we're just all trying to do the best
we can. And you know, at the very beginning when
I had Jolie, I didn't breastfeed, and honestly, I didn't
(34:19):
want to breastfeed UM, and you know, I I felt
like I had to because of what society told me.
And so I, I, you know, was basically starving my
child because I didn't have any milk to give her.
And I didn't know this, and I'm like, I don't
know what to do, and so I ended up, you know,
my milk never came in with my daughter, and UM
with my son, like my milk did come in. And
I'm like, Okay, I have to breastfeed. My My husband's like, no,
(34:42):
you don't. I'm like, no, I do, because like all
the hate that I got for not breastfeeding Jolie. And
he's like and we know we're trying to do and
he's not latching and I'm just like bawling and just like,
you know, I have my friends trying to like presh
on my boobs and like, you know, then I got
the pump and I'm just like, I don't want to
do this, and it's like then he's like don't. Jolie
was fine, and I'm like, I'm afraid of all the hate,
(35:03):
and then I'm just like you know what. After a while,
I'm like, I know that I am doing the very
best job that I can as a mom. And yeah,
I might not make their food from scratch, like I
might get them bottled, you know, food from public X
or wherever, Trader Joe's, but like, I'm just doing the
best that I can. I know my mom did the
best that she could with me, and so I try
(35:25):
to not let the mommy shamers in. It's frustrating at
times because I feel like women should, you know, empower
other women and if anything, give advice, you know, if
asked um, if by yeah, if if asked like I
would I am always like, hey, moms, what do you think?
But if I don't ask you, I don't care. And
(35:46):
I it's not that I you know, I would always
love more knowledge, Like, that's great about the momhood stuff,
but I don't want any other mom And I honestly
think the moms that do mom shame are just unhappy
with their situation the thurn and I have to just
be like, well, I'm really sorry you feel that way,
but I think we're doing pretty good, you know, good,
so good for you. I mean even like the other day,
(36:08):
I was like jumping on the trampoline with Jace and
They're like, you should have a cover on there, and
I'm like, there is. You just can't tell because of
the way that my phone. It's like, why is your
first thing to attack somebody? Doesn't make sense? Because it is.
They're not loving whatever's going on with them. Yeah, and
that's so bad for them. They should call Laura. All Right,
(36:30):
I swear everyone in at this part of the show. So, Janna,
do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth? Yes? I do. All right,
Which relationship in your life has had the most profound impact?
That's a really negatively or positively either one? Either one?
So I mean negatively. Well, I'll say this, Well, shoot,
(36:54):
my first I was gonna say my first I was
gonna say my dad because negatively, I mean I grew
up with just a bunch of daddy issuess in which
I think shaped. But I feel like then the positive
has been with Mike because he's kind of taught me
how to forgive. And now my dad and I have
an amazing relationship because of it. So that can be
like a hybrid. It could be your dad and I
(37:14):
cut the metamorphosis or evolution of the relationship with Thank
you for allowing that one, Laura, I appreciate it. I
will allow that. All right. We love your country, HiT's
Why You Want To and I got the Boy. But
all the love songs you've sung or heard, what's your
favorite of all time? Um, that's that's really hard. But
(37:34):
what I love right now, will to say right now
is more Hearts than Mine. It's by Ingrid Andrews. I
think it's really well written. Um it's basically about getting
into a relationship with someone and she takes him home
to the hometown and it's like, look, I just want
you to know, like my mom falls a little faster
than I do. My dad's gonna, you know, check your tires,
but he's gonna town. He doesn't like you, and it's
(37:55):
like if we break up, like I'll be fine, but
she'll be breaking more hearts than mine, right, So I'm like,
I just love that like kind of concept. That's a
big responsibility. I like that too. What's the one piece
of advice you share with your I'm gonna give you
two options, either your twenty year old self, which is
usually what I tell people, or somebody following your footsteps
(38:16):
who's twenty. What's the piece of advice you'd give her
or him? I would? I mean, don't get married at yeah,
don't do all those things. Um no, I would. I
would honestly say, don't settle because you feel like you
have to do what your friends are doing back home.
(38:36):
So if you moved or if you're in a hometown,
I don't feel like you have to get married because
you're twenty six or and you need you thought you'd
have kids by now. Like I think you change so
much from your early twenties to even you know, thirty,
It's just allow yourself to grow and do that. Personally,
I wish I would have done that more independently and
(38:58):
not allowed a man to feel that for me of
who I am and who like who I'm supposed to be.
I like that. Okay. Finally, which romantic comedy could you
watch on repeat? Oh? Notting Hill. I'm obsessed with it.
I'm just girl standing guy. I love it. I love it.
(39:19):
Love me like I'm just like, ah, how many times?
Just love me? I love that movie too. That's a
good one. So this interview is nearly over. It has rock.
Thank you so much for joining us today. Janna's new book,
The Good Fight, co authored with her husband Michael Cosson,
is out now, and you can see her latest film,
Welcome Home Christmas on Lifetime during the holiday season. Her
(39:41):
Bitter Sweet songs are available on Spotify and iTunes, and
her podcast wind Down is available right here on iHeart
and on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Janna,
tell everyone where they can find you. Beyond what I've
said here, you can find me on Instagram. I'm my
name is Kramer, girl on there. So with the cake
with the Okay, So that was awesome. I really like her.
(40:04):
She's super cute. I think that what she has lived
through in the past couple of years, I mean, clearly
she's she's been there. She speaks about it really articulately
in a way that I think people can understand and
relate to, totally owns her part of what's gone on
in her relationship with Mike and really is in my opinion,
(40:25):
really realistic and um, you know, generous with sharing her
experiences or other marital experiences or relationship experiences. I liked her,
I liked her a lot. Yeah, I agree, I agree,
and I love you, know, Sagittarius somber second, thank you
for listening today. Everyone. Let us know what you think
about today's show and rate us at Apple Podcast. We'll
(40:47):
be back next week, so let's chat then, cow. For now, everyone,
Hi there, it's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce service.
I've been practicing family law for over twenty years and
I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.
(00:22):
Along the way, I often have to remind people to
lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Rules simply don't apply. Because all's fair in love and war.
So welcome to the All's Fair Podcasts. Fasten your seatbelt
and let's go. Hi, Welcome to All's Fair. I'm Laura
Wasser and I'm Johnny Rains, and today's show is all
(00:44):
about infidelity. So, Laura, would you say that that's the
number one cause of divorce? No, I wouldn't. I mean,
every case brings surprises and sometimes disappointment and sometimes delight
as to how people conduct themselves. But I really do
think that infidelity is more of a symptom of something
(01:05):
else that's going on. And so again, maybe that's like
the final straw. But obviously, if somebody is looking outside
of the relationship, whether it's a online infidelity, emotional infidelity
like we hear about, or actual sexual infidelity. There's something
else going on. And so I'm not going to pinpoint
infidelity as the reason or the number one cause of divorce.
What would you say just from your experience? You know,
(01:27):
and I've just probably changes every day, but or at
this moment, what do you think is the number one
cause for divorce? Growing apart? Growing apart, So that has
to do with communication. That can have to do with
financial issues. People say, oh, if you're gonna remodel your
house or build a home, then you're going to get divorced. Obviously,
if a tragedy happens in your family, the death of
a child is sickness. But any of these things cause
(01:48):
a couple to grow apart, and that is when likely
you will find yourself in an extra marital or extracurricular relationship.
And so it's just hard to really say that's what
it's because of. And I would say, and I know
I'm being super general, but yes, growing apart and not
dealing with issues as they arise is going to be
the number one cause of divorce. Anyway, the history of
(02:11):
how the relationship has broken down is what's one of
the most fascinating things to me, and the things people
do out of hurt and rage, like setting your excess
car on fire, or we know this happened with one
friend of ours cutting the arm or leg off of
every item of clothing in his or her closet, completely
inappropriate social media postings. This is the stuff that I mean,
(02:32):
I do like to talk about, and I think if
you hear about it and you experience it and you
let it wash over you, maybe you don't actually need
to do those things yourself agreed, agreed. I guess some
people just reach their limit, though, but then others seem
to have the ability to tolerate all kinds of bullshit totally.
For example, speaking of of of shocking. In the Sunday
(02:55):
Styles section of the New York Times, there's a great
column that is about social cues and there is a
segment written by Philip Gaines that forces the question, why
dat someone who doesn't care about your health and safety?
It's babe, are you trying to kill me? And it's
about a couple man go where did he go? To?
(03:17):
Loom in Mexico? And you know Tllom's beautiful. It's kind
of more of a yoga treat and a green kind
of but it can be a little rustic. And so
she said, I'm not going because I've got autoimmune deficiencies
and we're in the middle of COVID, etcetera. And then
she would see him posting things and sending pictures of
him out no mask, hanging out bars, partying, taking shots,
(03:40):
and then he came back and he didn't test it
in quarantine. Um, you know, it may be magnified now
that we're in a pandemic, but maybe that's a good
thing because it's pretty easy to see. And I think
the the author that wrote back to this person that
wrote in said this, but maybe not as eloquently as
I'm about to, is a dick. Well, he does point
(04:02):
out the question, why would you want a boyfriend who
doesn't care about keeping you or himself safe? So, you know,
and that extends to be on you know, the pandemic,
somebody that's out there having unsafe sex, somebody that's out
there doing things that are inconsiderate and that couldn't put
you in harm's way, both physically and emotionally. No not okay, Yeah,
(04:24):
it's like I was saying about the tolerance level that
people have. Um, you shouldn't tolerate that. How about the
next one? This one blew me away when you sent
this one to me, savage love when divorce is not
an option, I don't know why it's not an option,
but she said it's not. So there's this woman, she's
been married for several years, and again it's her writing.
So it's her writing her real life experience about the
(04:47):
sometimes physical but certainly emotional abuse that she suffered at
the hands of her husband of many years, and the
fact that he had and admitted extramarital affairs and that
she wasn't allowed to She totally got catfished by this
one guy that like was pretending to be her friend
and said, you should totally do it. You should do it,
(05:08):
you should have an affair. So then, because she was
being so pressured by him, she said, fine, I had
an affair. And then the next call was from her husband.
The guy totally told her husband. Mean this woman again,
I don't mean to be an asshole, but she sounds
a little bit naive or vulnerable. And and I thought
that the advice giver gave her some very good advice.
I get that leaving a marriage could really um make
(05:31):
both parties suffer financially. But that's no way to live.
And maybe it's very easy for me to say, you know,
in my castle here in West Hollywood, but I'm sure
you can figure out something. Money isn't everything. Take the
right steps that you need to get your ducks in order.
But but living, I mean, certainly, if it gets to
be domestic violence, you know, or or your your health
(05:54):
and safety. But even the years of this kind of
mind fucking that was going on with this woman, get out, lady,
life is short. Get out. Yeah, that's my advice, very
good advice. I mean this Mr Dan Savage, who's the writer,
and I guess response to this lady says to detach,
But I think your version of detaching is probably the
(06:17):
way to go. And again, just so that it's clear,
I think the reason that Dan says detached as opposed
to divorces, she she wasn't there yet and there was
two is just crushing the thought, overwhelming, the thought of
leaving the marriage, leaving the financial comfort that she had,
which again both of them worked, so both of them
needed to be contributing. It wasn't like she had just
married the super wealthy guy, and so detaching, I feel
(06:40):
will enable her to kind of take the next step
she needs to take in order to get out of
the marriage and get to a safer space. Detach meaning
you could really read in this article how much all
of these you know things pained her so much? I mean,
she kept it was like she kept getting hit, she
kept getting back up again. Detached meaning and the next
(07:02):
blow move on. You can read that article on our blog.
It's from the Queen City Nerve and that's written by
Dan Savage. It is said that time heals all wounds,
but I wonder if that's really true. Infidelity does affect relationships,
but as illustrated by the woman in the Queen City
Nerve article, many people can make their peace with it.
(07:22):
I mean, the question is how long can they make
their peace with it? Time healing all wounds. Notwithstanding, as
Ralph waldo Emerson warns, beware what you set your heart upon,
for surely it shall be yours. In other words, careful
what you wish for, and don't necessarily work so hard
to make something work. If it's not working. In any event,
(07:42):
if it's broken, fix it for better for worse. And
until death do you Part are just some of the
things people promise when they get married. Today's guest is
someone who exemplifies these promises. She's an actress, an award
winning singer, a wife, and the mother of two. She's
an entrepreneur and the host of the award winning podcast
wind Down, and she's also the author of the new
(08:02):
book The Good Fight, which she co wrote with her husband.
She's beloved for being authentic and multi talented, and today
she's going to help us answer the question does time
he'll all wounds? Welcome to All's Fair. Jane Kramer, Hi,
thanks for having me. I'm so excited. It's a good question,
though I know it is. I've been thinking about it
(08:23):
a lot lately because I have a lot of time
to think about things these days. Johnny definitely wants me
to ask you about your birthday because it's the same
birthday as Johnny December two, and Britney spears, I've been
told my entire life, have you too, Johnny? Not Johnny's
entire life, because Johnny was already like an adult by
the time Britney's years is born. But yes, for many years,
(08:46):
I know I'm like, Okay, I get it, and it's
funny because I um, Jamie Lynn Spears, her younger sister,
has become a friend of mine, and she's you know,
I'm like, for my entire life, I've almost hated Brittany
because every birthday, I'm like, I know, Britney Sears's birthday,
but it's also mine and Johnny's, So Johnny's. It's kind
of nice that you have somebody to think about now
(09:08):
who's lower on their celebrity totem hole than you. Sorry, Johnny, Sorry,
but you are all right. So you're you have two kids,
Jolie and Jace, four and one, and they're both with
your current husband, Mike. Yes, as far as I know,
as far as you know, and you're from Michigan. Yes.
And I did not know this about you. Before you
(09:30):
became a singer, actress, entrepreneur, author, podcast host. You were
an ice skater. I used to figure skape for thirteen
years and it wasn't until my parents divorced that I
had to quit because it was like, okay, I'm not
going to the Olympics and my mom couldn't afford it anymore,
and she was working three jobs, and it was like, okay,
Mom stopped like, you don't. You don't need to keep
(09:51):
sending me to skating, It's fine, And then I did it.
Then I started waitressing when I was fourteen to try
to continue on. And then I'm like, you know what
I'd rather. I think I'm showing up not for the
hockey players instead of the ice time. So I'm like,
i gotta like, I'm done. Can I tell you, Janna?
By the way, I also am a roller skater, another
Sagittarian thing we have in common. By the way, I
(10:13):
just want to throw that in, dude, I still um
rollerblade like I don't care if it went out in
the nineties. I'm still like around Crockett Park here in
Nashville and I'm roller blade around like I love I
love it. I love it. Yeah, strong ankles to I think,
guys okay. And I also didn't realize that you were
a country music singer. I did, Yeah, I was. So.
(10:35):
I grew up singing with my dad like he was
in a bunch of bands. And I was working on
a show called One Tree Hill in Wilmington, North Carolina,
I remember, and I was writing some songs and we
were so close to Nashville, so I was flying back
and forth to Nashville, and you know, I gave some
of the songs to the creator and I was like,
I don't know if these are good, but will you
(10:56):
just listen to him, let me know, give me any feedback.
And he ended up turning my carric or into a singer.
And from there I got a record deal, and you know,
I toured the country for five six years and it
was it was a lot of fun. Like I you know,
I had to platinum selling singles and one top New
Female artist at the c m AS in two thousand thirteen.
That's huge. How old were you in two Oh? I'm
(11:20):
I'm I'm I'm edging on forty here, so I'm gonna
be thirty seven in December. Second, of course, that's not
edging on forty, edging on forties like your thirty nine.
You're edging on I remember thirty seven. What a good
year that wash. I'm excited for thirty seven. But yeah, no,
so I um but no, I loved it. It was
just you know, I love music, it's touring. I I
(11:40):
stopped that once I had my second kid. It was
just too hard and it was a lonely life and
I just you know, I will. I went obviously back
into acting, and I released singles every once in a
while just for kind of fun and whoever wants to
listen that's still out there. That's a you know, Cramer
music fan. But besides that, and it's it's just it was.
It was a lot of fun um and I still
do enjoy it, but it's not where my passion is.
(12:02):
So and you and you and Mike live in Tennessee now,
the kids we do. Yeah, we moved to l A
for a couple of years, and then I feel like
the industry just changed the last couple of years where
it's everything was on tape and I'm like, what am
I doing here? So I talked to my managers Mark
and Steve and was like, can I move because I
can't afford a house here, and I really would like
to go back to Nashville if possible, because I fell
(12:23):
in love with it when I was doing music. And
they're like, go, you're fine, Like it's an easy flight.
If something really important comes up, we can you know,
you can fly in. So we love it, like we
can actually afford a nice house and have a backyard
and schools are great. So I feel really blessed that
we're here and you're one of the few actors that
(12:44):
we've spoken with over the past six months that actually
has filmed something. You just filmed a Christmas special for
a Lifetime. Yes. Yeah, it was crazy because we I
was up in Canada filming a movie for Hallmark and
it was right all when Cove it was happening, and
then we we got shut down. So we filmed two
scenes and then we got shut down. And then with
(13:05):
this movie, yeah, I was I was nervous at first,
but I was you know, I'm like, okay, if they're
they're taking all the precautions, like I want to get
back to work, like I need to work for the family.
And so we um, you know, we started filming and
you know, every two days it was you know, no
swabs up the nose and um. But it was it
was a lot of anxiety. I mean we shut down
a bunch of times, you know. I unfortunately was one
(13:28):
of the reasons we had to shut down. I got
pneumonia UM, which I still think it was COVID and
maybe just a negative test because I've never had pneumonia.
So I'm like, I mean, I had to go to hospital,
like I was down and out. So I'm like, how
is this? Like I've never had this, so I'm not.
I'm pretty sure it was, but you know who knows.
So yeah, So it was just you know, everyone's wearing masks.
I don't know what half the people looked like on
(13:49):
my set, but it was a lot of fun. It was.
It was like it was like a nervous fun, like
I was so anxious, but I was so happy to
be back on set. I love it. Yeah, everybody that
I know that's in that world is just going so
sture crazy right now. And then in two thousands sixteen,
you are on season twenty three of Dancing with the Stars.
You really are like a renaissance woman. I mean, is
(14:11):
there anything that you can't do? Are you a shitty cook?
Just be honest, I mean, can you cook? I cannot cook? Okay,
good that my husband I can't either, but I just
okay the cooking well, and he says like this is
kind of a well not kind of a joke but
not really. But I almost divorced him right before, like
the COVID stuff, and I, um, I was like, you know,
(14:33):
when COVID hit, I we probably would have gotten back
together because our kids would have starved, like I'm not
I would have starved like we would have been eating cereal.
And so every time he cooks, he's like, one of
the reasons you keep me around, and I'm like, that's
not a lie. Definitely one of them. Hey they have
everybody has to add value, okay, and then tell us
a little bit about moms and babes. Box. I love that.
(14:55):
It's fun. It was just I have a really hard
time buying things for myself. I mean, I still have
clothes in my closet that are from like freaking you know,
nineteen twenty and I'm just like, I never wear it.
But I just have a really hard time buying things
for myself, and you know, I will buy everything for
my kids and for my husband. So that's why I
came up with the idea, like, okay, a box subscription
for things for mom and the kids. So you don't
(15:17):
write guilty, just bootstrap. I let I love it. It's fine.
And then it just shows up every month and quarterly,
so quarterly, spring, summer. That's awesome, and it kind of
grows with your kids. Yeah, I mean you can. We
had we had three different boxes. But girl, that's like
the whole side of that business is like it's a lot.
I'm just like, so now we just have it where
(15:38):
it's like, okay, if your kids between this age and
this age, it's a good box for you. If not,
buy it for a friend, get out all right. And
then in May of eighteen, you started the Wine w
h I n E Down podcast with your husband, Mike
tell us. So, actually it didn't start with my husband.
It started just with me and this other girl, Jen
(16:00):
and um, and my husband honestly didn't want any part
of it, and I was like, that's fine if you
ever want to be a guest, like come on on
or you know, come on the show. And he ended
up coming on and people loved it and I loved it,
and it was really good for us. So the lady
that was on it was she was just the producer
at the time, but she was kind of filling in
until we found a spot and um, you know, he
(16:21):
came on and he's like, can I do this with you?
And I'm like please, like, I love it, and it
kind of became our couples therapy in a way, and
it was it's really strengthened our marriage to be able
to talk about things and be so open about stuff,
and you know, sometimes it can affect certain things, but
you know, all in all, it's been really good for us. Well,
let's let's talk about that a little bit, because that
(16:42):
kind of bridges into what this episode is about. Your
most recent episode, Emotionally Afarable, you guys spoke about somebody
not only how unproductive Mike was while you're away, you know,
how much cooking can you do, but also that there
was a kind of a good looking a star that
was on the set of the movie and he became
(17:03):
a good friend. And I guess you guys discussed on
the podcast how Mike felt about that. Yes, well he yeah,
he was, which kind of shocked me. Like he wasn't
jealous at all, and and that's and you know a
lot of people would be like, why do you care,
Like that's amazing that your husband isn't jealous, Like that's great,
and I'm like, yes, but for me, and I even
talked about this with my therapist last week, I was like,
(17:25):
I want to know that like he I don't know,
Like I just I want that energy that not that
he'd be like totally jealous and like mean or not
let me talk to him, not like that, but just
have a little bit like hey, this is my girl,
you know, and and a little like not so confident
you know that He's like, well I trust you, and
I'm like great, but like you know, it was more
(17:49):
about him having confidence in you though, and and and
himself than it was about him not caring if anything happened, Like,
if anything had happened, he would have been very upset. Yes,
I would, I hope so. But then again, sometimes my
therapist brought this up. She's like, do you think he
wants to even the playing field because of his affairs?
And I'm like, maybe you're right, And you know he's
(18:09):
like he says no, but I still don't believe him,
Like he hates that he's, you know, always the one
that is the perpetrator in our relationship. So I mean,
I bet you he would like it, but it wouldn't
feel good, right, And how how does it feel for
you knowing that you might have that like one or
two or seven get out of jail free cards? I mean,
(18:30):
how does that work? I mean it was a random
number of listeners. I don't know anything just seven sounded
and the seventh sounds good. I mean a little more,
but like you know, I'm just saying for me, you know,
I don't know. I just don't think I can. It's
I have. I think I have major love addiction qualities
in me. So I have to be really hard with like,
(18:53):
I have to be really careful with that, because even
when I do go on a set or when I
do get around people, I get very much like love me,
tell me, I'm enough, tell And then and then I
get sucked into that wanting that person to have those
feelings about me, even though I don't want them to,
but I put it out there. So I have Like
my twenties, I was just a wreck with that, and
so now I feel like once I hit thirty, I've
(19:14):
like the last six years, I've just been trying to
just like practice like being confident in myself and not
not wanting outside not having outside validation to affirm me.
And it's like then the hardest thing for me, because
I constantly crave outside validation, right and and then you know,
putting it out there that like you know, I should
put it, I should put it out there that I
(19:34):
am very taken and then I wouldn't even entertain it.
But sometimes I'm like, I want a little like love,
you know. And and again it's also it's a double
edged sword. But my guess is looking at you, hearing
you listing your accomplishments, you've always gotten that outside validation.
So it's not like you've been barking up the wrong treaty.
Like whenever you put it out there, it comes back,
(19:55):
and so it feels good. And so between the podcast
and your book, which is coming out, The Good Fight, Okay,
you and Mike seem to do a lot of introspection discussing.
You've discussed the past, You've discussed the relationships. Uh, Johnny
did a little bit of research, and so we know
that there it's not always been smooth sailing. So you
(20:17):
had your daughter, You guys got married in two thousand fifteen.
Then you had Jolie in two thousand and sixteen, and
then apparently that same year US Weekly broke the news
that Mike had cheated on you with multiple women. So
you guys separated. How do you come back from that?
I mean, how does that how? Because I people ask
me all the time as a divorce attorney and as
(20:37):
the host of the show and the you know ceo
of it's over easy. All I'm dealing with his divorce,
and so people say, can you can you overcome this?
Can a relationship overcome this? Does time heal? So let's
get it from the proverbial horse's mouth. Can you overcome it?
I mean, I think anything's possible. Um, and I think
something like that we talked about in our book The
good fight is it has to be two people constantly
(20:59):
working together and on themselves as well. Like Mike would
have never stayed if I didn't change how I treated him.
I mean I mother f him for the first year,
like I was mean, I was nasty. I was just like,
f you, like you did this to us, Like how
could you do this? Like look at our daughter? Like
I was awful. And you know, eventually he was like,
(21:21):
you have to forgive me or I can't do this,
or you have to like start forgiving because it's not
fair for me to just be shamed. And I hear that,
I'm like, no, f you like, And but then I'm like, Okay,
I have to look in the mirror and say I
have to now do my work to move on and
and not saying there haven't been times when I've done
(21:43):
it wrong, and there are times when I want to
say things and I have to kind of bite my tongue.
But you know, for us, it's why I stayed in
the beginning was because of my daughter. You know, I
come from a divorce family. I looked at my daughter
and she was four months five months old, and I'm
just like, it's so unfair, and I did that. This
is another reason my state I was. It was like, man,
(22:05):
how unfair because of his addiction and his issues that
he now is going to tear my family apart, everything
that I've worked so hard for. Like no, and I
don't want another woman raising my child. I just I
just wasn't there. I'm like, I know every speck of
that girl, and I know her heart, and I like,
I like, she is my child. And so I was like,
(22:25):
I'm going to do everything I can to fight for
this family. And you know, it's it's been a rocky
four years and it's but I will say, with your
time thing, you know, we still have triggers that come up.
There's a hotel that I know he slept with his
a fair girl, and I have to drive past it
every day, you know, And there are times when I
(22:47):
call him and I was like, you know what, it
hurts today, Like it really really hurts, and it makes
me really sad, and I'm about to start ruminating and
going down the thing, and I need you just to
talk to me, and I need you to tell me
you're sorry, and I need you to and and it's
like he needs to help me. He helps me stay present,
like what's what is he doing today? How is he
you know, amazing today? And how are we better today?
(23:08):
And so it just it does I think time time
does heal because a year ago when we moved back
to Nashville, I sat in that parking lot and I
baled my eyes out. I'm not there today, So it
does like I have healed, you know, a year from
that day that we moved back. And I think it's
just one of those things where, you know, when everything
(23:29):
was discovered and I found out about everything, I would
think about it all the time and I was consumed
with how and you know what they looked like in
this and that? And now it's every you know, maybe
once a week I think about it for a split second,
and I don't go down the rabbit hole and I
and I just my my reminder to myself is just
stay present. Where what is he doing today? How is
(23:49):
he today? Because the man he was when I married
him it was not the man that I'm married to today.
And I love that you guys are there for each
other so many people just to kind of repress whatever
the feelings are. But hearing you say Joanna that you
call him and you go, i'm driving by it hurts
today and he kind of talks you through it. That's huge.
That is a huge communication. Yeah, but it's I mean,
(24:12):
and also the idea that you kind of have to
move through it before you can put it behind you,
like saying, Okay, I'm not sitting in the park a
lot weeping. Yeah. I think that is incredibly amazing that
you guys are able to do that. I'm sure that
that's made you stronger. If I asked him, and you
probably know because it sounds like you guys talk about
(24:33):
it a lot. Why does he cheat? I mean, there's
an addiction component to it, but does he not feel
good about himself? And you're not able to make him
feel good in that moment or he's not able to
accept that from you, so we girls elsewhere because just
like when you put stuff out into the world and
you like having that kind of admiration or flirting, he
just takes it a step further or is there something
else again if you know, because I'm assuming this has
(24:53):
been a subject of conversation, So definitely he is. He
is a sex addict. I mean how he's um, what
he would do to plan out his days and how
we would plan it is very addict like um. But
also because you know his childhood wounds, like he always
he never felt like he was good enough, and whenever
he was stressed, instead of grabbing an alcohol bottle, he
(25:14):
would need sex like his sex was his way of
or masturbation or porn or um or acting out was
his way of release and not holding onto things. And
then also the component of you know, feeling validated like
you said, or feeling enough um. And you know he
started watching porn really really early on as a as
(25:36):
a kid, and so that's what you know, he was like, oh, okay,
I'm not angry anymore. This helped me not be angry.
This helped me, and so it started his brain started
to say this is how then this is what you
need then to to not feel right and to release
what's the there's the chemicals. It's serotonin that something is
(25:57):
released when you have an orgasm, are feeling good, take
certain drugs or alcohol. So he was getting that as
a parent, how do you feel about porn now? And again,
your kids are little, but I can't imagine things are
going to be much more buttoned up by the time
they get to be the the age of where they're
on phones and iPads and computers. I mean, we have
(26:19):
there's a really great app that you know, Mike uses
for his program UM. It's called Covenant Eyes UM and
so that's something where it blocks those sites that he
can't go on. Uh. And you know, I think just
trying to instill healthy habits and your kids and you know,
being open about it and talking about it. Like I
know Mike had the conversation with his younger brother about it,
who's fourteen years younger, and just saying like, hey, man, like,
(26:42):
don't don't go straight to their like you know, talk
to a friend, go outside for a walk, like work out,
do something that you know can um not you know,
not like, don't release it in that way. And I
was like, well, I'm kind of hypocrite for saying that,
because every time I get stressed, I'm opening up at
a bottle of wine at the end of the day.
But I'm like, yeah, well, they're all addictions. Some are
(27:03):
more socially acceptable. I mean, you can't be, like, you know,
jacking off in public, and you still shouldn't be, like,
you know, making out with another person that's not your
spouse in public, but having a glass of wine is fine.
So we all have things that we deal with to
get by. So in your book The Good Fight, Jana
that you guys have a you speak about a faith component.
Tell tell our listeners a little bit about that. So
(27:25):
for me, I had a really hard time with that
chapter just because I've, um, you know, with my issues
that I had with my father, Praying to a father
just seemed just seemed wrong to me. I didn't I
didn't connect with it, um And honestly, if I'm being
completely honest, I was very um jealous of the connection
that Mike had with God. And you know, he got
re baptized and he just seemed, you know, so light.
(27:49):
And I remember sitting with our pastor, I'm like, I'm
I'm jealous and I'm I like that he gets to
feel so free and light while I'm sitting over here
still like in my pain, and you know, just like
all the crap, and and I don't know how to.
I don't know, I don't know how, and I'm afraid that,
you know, the man upstairs gonna is gonna leave me
and tell me that I'm not good enough, and you know,
(28:10):
and and not answer and not be there and and
I'm gonna end up being alone. And so that was
that was just really hard for me. This is All's
Fair with Laura Wasser on I Heart Radio. Our podcast
is about relationships, and it's brought to you by It's
over Easy, our online divorce service. And when it comes
to divorce, generally, there are no lightning bolts or magical
(28:32):
signs that tell you when it's time to get divorced.
Statistically speaking, half of all marriages won't end in divorce.
But when the bad starts out weighing the good on
a consistent basis, you may feel that taking the next
step is appropriate. It's a very personal decision and most
likely should be arrived upon with the help of some
kind of counseling or support. Today we're discussing the reasons
(28:53):
to stay or go with the efervescent, brilliant and multi
talented country singer and actress Janet Cramer Janna at the
top of the show. One of the intentions we set
is to answer the question does time heal all wounds
when it comes to matters of the heart? Tell us
in your experience, do you believe that time heals? I
really truly feel that time does heal. And the only
(29:16):
reason I say that is because if I was to
put myself back where I was four and a half
years ago, I would have said, you're crazy, that's not possible.
I'll never not feel this pain. I'll never not feel
how heavy this is and how terrible we are. And
I never thought that I wouldn't go every single second
of the day and not feel depressed or heavy, or
(29:39):
hate my husband, or just like feel the pain or
think about everything that went on. But I can say
now that since so much time has passed, it doesn't
feel as heavy. It doesn't the weight isn't there as much.
I mean, sure there's moments where I get triggered, but
I believe that with time and therapy and um two
(30:00):
people working on themselves, two people working together in the relationship.
The scars can heal. There's always going to be the wound,
but the scars can heal. And I think that's where
I think in time it can get better. I mean
anything in time, just when you lose a loved one,
when you lose like in time, it still hurts, but
you know in ten years from now, yes it's gonna
(30:22):
hurt when you think of it, but it's not going
to feel as heavy. In my opinion, I agree, let's
go a little bit further back. There's something in between
losing a loved one to death or something like a
family member and what you and Mike went through in
terms of repairing their relationships and and listeners. For those
of you who don't know, jan has actually been married
(30:42):
three times, well, I mean, would you really technically call
them marriages? I don't know, Like one was a drive
through I was nineteen, knew him for two weeks, Like ah,
I would really call it a marriage. The second one, yes,
I dated the guy for you know, three years, we
got married. It only lasted a week. It was one
of those that was Jonathan. You know, I represented Jonathan
(31:04):
when he got divorced. From Christina. Well, you know it's
really funny is that when I was going to divorce
my now husband, I tried to get you, but I couldn't.
I'm sorry what happened with somebody in my office? Mean,
do you know they like pawned me off on someone else,
And I'm like, look, I need the best if I'm
going to do this, you know, But I'm glad that
(31:24):
I was able to contribute to you guys staying together.
That's the way I see it. You can't have me,
you just have to stay in the marriage. That's what
we like to say. But technically, like I I say,
like this is my first marriage, because this is the
only marriage that I've truly worked to keep together. Like
this is like I can't count when I was nineteen
and stupid, or when you know, I married Jonathan, who
(31:44):
I adored this day, Like I were still really good friends.
He helps me with on my auditions, Like I love
his wife. His wife is my best friend. But like
we always joke and say we had a great party.
We weren't married, we didn't have a but at the
time it probably hurt, didn't it. I mean that breakup,
I mean we saw we have people that listen to
this show are often younger, and they may not have
been married before. They're listening because they want to listen
(32:06):
and hear about relationships. And I do want to give
them the benefit and the wisdom of our experience in that.
I mean, breakups hurt. They hurt when you when you
lose a family member, it hurts, when you have a
fight with the sibling or a uh, you know, falling
out with a business partner, it hurts. And so experiencing
that pain and and you know they say the only way,
(32:28):
the only way out is through feeling it, letting the
waves of that sadness wash over you again. I'm always
gonna miss my mom who died lust. I'm always going
to miss her, and during difficult times when I can't
pick up the phone and call her, it's even more difficult.
Um that being said, if time heals, and if it
really does, just take time, because so many people have
said to me, I just want to go to bed
(32:50):
and wake up in a year and it won't hurt
as bad anymore. But you have to live the year.
You have to. Yeah, you have to live it. You
have to go through it. But it sucks and it's
so hard. But like I will say, I think time
heals all wounds, but it still hurts, Like you're still
gonna hurt. It's just not gonna be as heavy as
it once was. And that's the thing, Like, you know,
any breakup, like you just feel like the world is over.
(33:11):
I mean, yeah, I remember breaking up with Jonathan and
being in the closet just bawling my eyes out, like
not wanting to feel that pain. But you know, now
it's like again, look at how time evolves and how
you grow and how you're like, wow, I'm glad that
I went through that because I'm a better person now today.
If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger, right
So once that's like my biggest motto ever that and
(33:35):
this too shall pass. So in your book, in The
Good Fight, you open up about why you think it's
important to be really truthful about the exciting and the
more i'll just say it, crappy parts of parenting, including
some of the recent responses you've had to mommy shamers
on social media. I just saw your baby boy. He's adorable.
But we know as moms it's not always like rainbows
(33:57):
and unicorns. There are moments. So you've been really upfront
and honest in this interview. So let's talk a little
bit about the mom shaming stuff that's gone on before
we get to the interrogatories. I mean, it's kind of
sad when you even say like mom shaming, because I
feel like we're just all trying to do the best
we can. And you know, at the very beginning when
I had Jolie, I didn't breastfeed, and honestly, I didn't
(34:19):
want to breastfeed UM, and you know, I I felt
like I had to because of what society told me.
And so I, I, you know, was basically starving my
child because I didn't have any milk to give her.
And I didn't know this, and I'm like, I don't
know what to do, and so I ended up, you know,
my milk never came in with my daughter, and UM
with my son, like my milk did come in. And
I'm like, Okay, I have to breastfeed. My My husband's like, no,
(34:42):
you don't. I'm like, no, I do, because like all
the hate that I got for not breastfeeding Jolie. And
he's like and we know we're trying to do and
he's not latching and I'm just like bawling and just like,
you know, I have my friends trying to like presh
on my boobs and like, you know, then I got
the pump and I'm just like, I don't want to
do this, and it's like then he's like don't. Jolie
was fine, and I'm like, I'm afraid of all the hate,
(35:03):
and then I'm just like you know what. After a while,
I'm like, I know that I am doing the very
best job that I can as a mom. And yeah,
I might not make their food from scratch, like I
might get them bottled, you know, food from public X
or wherever, Trader Joe's, but like, I'm just doing the
best that I can. I know my mom did the
best that she could with me, and so I try
(35:25):
to not let the mommy shamers in. It's frustrating at
times because I feel like women should, you know, empower
other women and if anything, give advice, you know, if
asked um, if by yeah, if if asked like I
would I am always like, hey, moms, what do you think?
But if I don't ask you, I don't care. And
(35:46):
I it's not that I you know, I would always
love more knowledge, Like, that's great about the momhood stuff,
but I don't want any other mom And I honestly
think the moms that do mom shame are just unhappy
with their situation the thurn and I have to just
be like, well, I'm really sorry you feel that way,
but I think we're doing pretty good, you know, good,
so good for you. I mean even like the other day,
(36:08):
I was like jumping on the trampoline with Jace and
They're like, you should have a cover on there, and
I'm like, there is. You just can't tell because of
the way that my phone. It's like, why is your
first thing to attack somebody? Doesn't make sense? Because it is.
They're not loving whatever's going on with them. Yeah, and
that's so bad for them. They should call Laura. All Right,
(36:30):
I swear everyone in at this part of the show. So, Janna,
do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth? Yes? I do. All right,
Which relationship in your life has had the most profound impact?
That's a really negatively or positively either one? Either one?
So I mean negatively. Well, I'll say this, Well, shoot,
(36:54):
my first I was gonna say my first I was
gonna say my dad because negatively, I mean I grew
up with just a bunch of daddy issuess in which
I think shaped. But I feel like then the positive
has been with Mike because he's kind of taught me
how to forgive. And now my dad and I have
an amazing relationship because of it. So that can be
like a hybrid. It could be your dad and I
(37:14):
cut the metamorphosis or evolution of the relationship with Thank
you for allowing that one, Laura, I appreciate it. I
will allow that. All right. We love your country, HiT's
Why You Want To and I got the Boy. But
all the love songs you've sung or heard, what's your
favorite of all time? Um, that's that's really hard. But
(37:34):
what I love right now, will to say right now
is more Hearts than Mine. It's by Ingrid Andrews. I
think it's really well written. Um it's basically about getting
into a relationship with someone and she takes him home
to the hometown and it's like, look, I just want
you to know, like my mom falls a little faster
than I do. My dad's gonna, you know, check your tires,
but he's gonna town. He doesn't like you, and it's
(37:55):
like if we break up, like I'll be fine, but
she'll be breaking more hearts than mine, right, So I'm like,
I just love that like kind of concept. That's a
big responsibility. I like that too. What's the one piece
of advice you share with your I'm gonna give you
two options, either your twenty year old self, which is
usually what I tell people, or somebody following your footsteps
(38:16):
who's twenty. What's the piece of advice you'd give her
or him? I would? I mean, don't get married at yeah,
don't do all those things. Um no, I would. I
would honestly say, don't settle because you feel like you
have to do what your friends are doing back home.
(38:36):
So if you moved or if you're in a hometown,
I don't feel like you have to get married because
you're twenty six or and you need you thought you'd
have kids by now. Like I think you change so
much from your early twenties to even you know, thirty,
It's just allow yourself to grow and do that. Personally,
I wish I would have done that more independently and
(38:58):
not allowed a man to feel that for me of
who I am and who like who I'm supposed to be.
I like that. Okay. Finally, which romantic comedy could you
watch on repeat? Oh? Notting Hill. I'm obsessed with it.
I'm just girl standing guy. I love it. I love it.
(39:19):
Love me like I'm just like, ah, how many times?
Just love me? I love that movie too. That's a
good one. So this interview is nearly over. It has rock.
Thank you so much for joining us today. Janna's new book,
The Good Fight, co authored with her husband Michael Cosson,
is out now, and you can see her latest film,
Welcome Home Christmas on Lifetime during the holiday season. Her
(39:41):
Bitter Sweet songs are available on Spotify and iTunes, and
her podcast wind Down is available right here on iHeart
and on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Janna,
tell everyone where they can find you. Beyond what I've
said here, you can find me on Instagram. I'm my
name is Kramer, girl on there. So with the cake
with the Okay, So that was awesome. I really like her.
(40:04):
She's super cute. I think that what she has lived
through in the past couple of years, I mean, clearly
she's she's been there. She speaks about it really articulately
in a way that I think people can understand and
relate to, totally owns her part of what's gone on
in her relationship with Mike and really is in my opinion,
(40:25):
really realistic and um, you know, generous with sharing her
experiences or other marital experiences or relationship experiences. I liked her,
I liked her a lot. Yeah, I agree, I agree,
and I love you, know, Sagittarius somber second, thank you
for listening today. Everyone. Let us know what you think
about today's show and rate us at Apple Podcast. We'll
(40:47):
be back next week, so let's chat then, cow. For now, everyone,
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