July 14, 2020 • 38 mins
Relationship coach and podcaster Jennifer Hurvitz joins us today to discuss dating during the plague (COVID-19), earthquakes, tornadoes, and other natural disasters plus, co-parenting and why the “divorce grass” is not always greener. Laura and Jennifer debate how soon is too soon to have sex after a breakup, and Jennifer shares the four secrets to a healthy relationship, one of which includes putting your kids second—wait, what?!?!? Listen now, leave a review and tell us what you think!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi there, it's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce service.
I've been practicing family law for over twenty years and
I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
(00:24):
may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.
Along the way, I often have to remind people to
lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Rules simply don't apply. Because all's fair in love and war.
So welcome to the All's Fair Podcasts. Fasten your seatbelts
and let's go. Hi there, it's me Laura Wasser, and
(00:46):
this is All's Fair. My name is Johnny Rains. Thanks
for listening today. The All's Fair podcast and the It's
over Easy community are all about relationships, and we're also
fascinated with the evolution of families, particularly in their next chapters.
As a society were constantly evolving, and we recognize that
the American family structure is redefined almost on a daily basis.
(01:08):
But divorces all around us. I mean, who doesn't know
someone who's divorced. It's not as scandalous or taboo as
it used to be. That being said, it is a
profound change, and I know many people go to great
lengths to keep a marriage together. And speaking of modern love,
I know you love that section in the New York Times.
The story you sent me last weekend about that couple
who quote unquote cracked a window, so to speak, in
(01:30):
their marriage to let in some a is a burning
example of what you just said. That was that was
that the Burning Man article? Did you get it from
my joke? Did you like that? You're very clever? I
love that. And again I kind of felt like her.
This article, guys, was about a couple and they've been
married a long time and the husband had always really
wanted to go to Burning Man. And she was like, which,
(01:52):
that's kind of how I feel about it too, Like
I don't want to see a bunch of like wealthy,
rich people naked and tripping in the day. I love
how her friends says, when she hears Burning Man, she
she thinks it's sand in the vagina. Yes, that's kind
of how I feel too, anyway. But she she like,
she opens up to it, and she goes and they
have this really amazing experience together, and I loved it.
(02:14):
I just love the idea, particularly when you hear I
hear so many people splitting up about how she was
willing to do something and it really kept them together.
And I love that. Yes, the article was by Deborah
Joe Immergut, and she was a former magazine editor and
her husband was a documentarian and they went and did
(02:34):
this and I loved it. Yes, and she at the
moral of the story, um is, she says, two years later,
we're experiencing the opposite of burning Man, hunger down in
self quarantine and their new England house as the pandemic
switched the globe. Yet I think we internalized enough of
that wide open space at Burning Man to know the
need for psychic distance in our marriage, and we're better
(02:55):
at maintaining it while still sharing love and support during
a frightening time. But I think, and again, as you know,
I don't want divorce to be regarded as a failure
or a nightmare, because it's really an evolution and a
transition of the way your family functions. I mean, I I,
for one, don't necessarily believe that the majority of humans
(03:15):
are meant to mate for life. Those that do, God bless.
I'm happy to sure you on help you through it,
do whatever I can, but those who don't, and I
speak to new clients on the phone every day and
it's over easy users about the idea of well, let's
see what this is going to look like a year
from now, and how happy you'll be with your co
parent and maybe even a new relationship that's starting but
(03:36):
in a healthier, happier place. Well, speaking of new relationships,
evidently there is life, love and sex after divorce. And
it's interesting when you mentioned the evolution how people's relationships
are adapting now that COVID nineteen is part of our vocabulary.
Even the way people date is different. And if you
are dating or thinking about it, here are the latest
tips for dating during quarantine. Number one, this one really
(04:00):
made me laugh, is come up with some kind of joke.
I mean this, this chick says on her first video date,
I don't normally invite boys into my bedroom on the
first date. Um as she answers the call, and then
she starts out with, so how's your quarantine going? I
don't know, it's kind of corny. What I liked about
this article was that it mentioned some new apps about dating.
(04:22):
I think that the gist of It is kind of,
you know, targeted towards millennials, but the truth is everyone
these days, whether you're a millennial, gen X or or
baby boomer, you're all stuck inside and people are dating
on video conference. Remember that story Mary sent us about
the couple that had kind of met right before, and
so they would have their He would drop meal off
(04:43):
at her house or she would drop a meal off
at his house and they'd eat together. Kind of. I
gotta tell you, I think it's lovely. I'm out. I'm
gonna wait. I'm gonna wait another few weeks before I
get back out there because I just I can't. I
need to see a person, I need to sit across
from them, I need to have a meal. Den's nodding,
all right. So anyway, dating after divorce, whether it's during
(05:04):
quarantine or in the best of times, it can be awkward.
We know that, and we speak about some of this
with dating expert and Hotter in our video series Next
Chapter Life After Divorce, which is available at Next Chapter
series dot com, but today joining us in the Flesh
via zoom. It's one of the leading experts on dating
and divorce. She's a relationship coach, best selling author and
(05:26):
the host of Doing Divorce Right or Avoiding It All
Together podcast. Welcome to All's Fair Jennifer Herbitt's, Hi, guys, Thanks,
thank you, guys, thank you. I'm very excited about this.
So I went on your website. I did a little
bit of research. So you've been happily divorced. I don't
(05:46):
hear many people say that you don't think about it
when you're happily divorce, but most people hopefully are. Since
two thousand fourteen, and you live in Charlotte, North Carolina
with your two teenage boys, and you have a degree
in family and child he call oology. What's child ecology?
You know what? It's been so long. I forget, you know,
It's just it's one of those things like you get
you go to school and you're like, what will I do?
(06:08):
I'm a rst degree. I don't know, you know, It's
one of those things. And then I got a school,
and like I got married right right to get married
right families, and we think happily ever after forever. And
then thirteen years later, here I am divorced. It's got it.
And I said, tell people, I made a career out
of my divorce right, which yeah, I mean that I
kind of backed into it the other way, but I
(06:29):
feel the same way and helping people through this experience.
I mean, I had been practicing divorce law for probably
twenty years by the time wrote the book, launched It's
over Easy website, and I thought, I gotta there has
to be a better way of doing this, that this
has to be a better way of doing this. And
so we are kind of seeing the needle move. So
you're also a certified divorce specialists, and UM tell us
(06:54):
a little bit about that. I mean, your blog is
the true herb its blog, and I love the act
that you're just totally bullshit free and refreshing, Like hold
the bullshit, you know. I feel like you never think
you're gonna get divorced, right, you go to the Cuba,
you go to the altar, You're like, this is it.
You know, if you asked a hundred you know, newly
engaged couples, who's getting divorced? No one's raising their hands, right,
(07:17):
everyone's thinking, you're gonna stay married forever. That was me.
I thought I'm going to stay married forever. So um,
I tell people all the time, you know, I'm not
happy to be divorced. I'm happily divorced to totally different things. Right.
So I took I think I took a really shitty
situation and I did the best I possibly could. And
my husband, I call him my husband. I wasn't. Yeah,
my usband and I are seriously like, we're best friends.
(07:40):
I have to tell you, and I know that that's rare,
and I know that people are like, oh, she's crazy, crap,
it's bullshit. No, we really are. We're really good friends.
I talked to him all the time. Um, and we
we comparent my back stars. So it takes time. It
took time to get there, but we're here. So and
I don't know when this will air, so we might
all still be inside or we might have all correct
and of the light. But tell us what you and
(08:01):
your husband are doing with your kids during this pandemic
stay at home thing? Okay, exactly the same thing we
always do. We we co creant and we have week
on and week off, so they're with me one week
and then they go to my you know, and my
It's funny my kids say, Mom, thank god you guys
you know do because they get to see like two
(08:22):
different spaces. Don't you the best thing ever? Yes? And
again that's what judges throughout the country generally speaking, which
is it has nothing to do with us, like yes,
maybe that first morning after they're gone, either you're like
oh or you're like yes, either way, depending on the
week and depending on whatever. Let's go. But and I
(08:43):
tell people this all the time. I go, yeah, that
first few times, it's going to be difficult, but then
you really value your free time, your kid free time.
And I think it for me, at least, it enables
me to be a better and more present parent. And
then I'm better and more present, whether it's partner, you know, attorney,
what CEO of my company, whatever it is, I can
(09:05):
really be present. So I think we are actually lucky
to have this opportunity. But more important than for us
was my main point. But then I of course digressed
into talking about me that happen it's good for the kids.
I mean, I say too all the time. Don't you
want your kids to be able to experience both of you?
(09:27):
Don't you want them to have that for better Yes?
And and I and I think kids want that, they
need that, even if one parent in in your mind
is not as good of a parent. They're the parent
that they are. And you know, in most instances, unless
they're really providing a safety hazard to your kids emotionally
or physically, you get what you get. And that's what
(09:50):
that's what makes you who you are as you go
into an adult. And so it's really important that they
experience that. You can't shield them from their other parents.
And when they come back to me right after being
I'm like, oh my god, they're all right, and let's
give me those kids. And then twenty minutes later, I'm like,
sh you know, I'm just kidding, but like and then
I'm a percent to get And you know, I've been
in a three year relationship my my boyfriend and I
(10:11):
You're gonna love this. We we don't we don't blend families, right,
And that's true. So I don't know if you know
that about me, But they've my kids have never met
his kids. So we have really three years. Yeah, so
we're we what are the ages of all the kids?
All teenagers? So we compared the same. He has week
so every week apart we both ever kids, right, and
then when we get together, we have a week together.
(10:32):
So I give him a percent of me, and then
I get like, we give our kids. Yes, beautiful, but
like if they ever asked, have they ever been killed?
They know about each other and they met, they've met him, Okay, yeah,
my kids have loved him. Okay for me so much,
but it's okay, okay, right are his kids girls? Two boys?
I have two loves, he has two boys. Just don't
(10:52):
care that, like, you know what, why why mess it up?
It's all good? I heartily agree. I agree. I just
was gonna let you know, Laura, so you may recall
Jennifer was on our schedule, um several weeks ago, and
then there was a tornado and you were with your kids,
your team. Wow. How so I just have to ask,
how is everything now? Everyone's thank you. It's good to know.
(11:12):
Now it's hurricane season. I love Charlotte. I cannot stand it.
Everyone who I mean, the South is crazy, but Charlotte
is not. You guys, I'm from Detroit, obviously you can
hear me. But I'm from Detroit. I'm totally northern. And
my ex husband, of course, we were married, we moved here,
so I see, I'm happily stock right. I cannot wait
to get just give you out there. But so it's
crazy here that were tornadoes, hurricanes, two earthquakes today? Oh
(11:35):
my god. Yeah, we had an earth quite the other day.
Yeah it was I don't most people didn't even feel it.
I'm a very light sleeper. Was it like three in
the morning and it was like a two point eight
or some Did you feel it? I did? Of course.
I always feel them, especially when they're late at night.
Oh my gosh, you guys, my brother lives in l A.
So but we don't have the hurricanes in the tornado
(11:55):
and then have you heard about these like Killer b
Lucas you talk about it was so fun. This is
the most fun I had. What is that? I don't know.
I want to talk about your books though, that's okay.
So in two thousand and seventeen, you wrote One Happy Divorce,
Hold the bullshit. That was so fun and that was cathartic.
In two thousand nineteen, you wrote what It Could Have,
(12:15):
A Divorce Coaches Guide to Staying Married and this was
highlighted on Oprah magazine and the Best of two thousand nineteen. Less. Yeah,
that's day in my life. So tell us, I mean,
tell us why the two thousand seventeen book was cathartic.
And then tell us what I mean. I wrote one book,
and I really have always said, I don't think I
have another book in me. I'm not sure. Two years later,
(12:35):
you're back at me. You do lord like? Eighteen months
later was crazy. The first one, I was not in
a good place. The first one, I was like, I
gotta tell my story. This is like I just gotten separated.
I'm like, this is for me. First book was for me.
It was cathartic. I was nesting. You know, I know
you're testing. Was nesting. I was like, this is for me. Fine.
The second book, I'm like, I got to tell people
(12:57):
what divorce really looks like. I've got to be honest.
I've lost all my friends, my kids lost all their friends.
This is bullshit. Nobody knows the truth. I'm gonna spill it.
And so the second moment, Look, people who are married,
you need to know the truth before you jump, because
if you don't know what's really going on, no one's
going to tell you but me. So I decided to
tell all the married people in the world what divorce
really looks like and try to save a few marriages.
(13:18):
And people are like why it crazy, And I'm like, no,
I'm gonna do it. So I did. And do you
have you seen? Because people ask me this a lot too.
I will send people away and said to go on
your marriage. I love it. If you're if your main
concern is money, I'll say to people like, hey, cheaper
to keeper. Find out how to make this work. And
more importantly, if it's not his bullshit, it's going to
(13:39):
be somebody else's bullshit. Oh my god, I love you.
That is exactly what I felt. I'm like, the divorce
grass is not greener, y'all? Are you kidding? Needs staying
married if you can work at now. Look, obviously there's
caveat if you if you're a horribly abusive physically views
of emotional get divorced. But if there's a little glimmer
of hope that you know, you have kids, work on it.
Do the work, put the work. And if you think
(13:59):
it's going to be these are on the other side
of you, rush God suck your bong. Right. But there
is also the point when when relationships just you know,
get to their natural end, they evolved to the point
where like you'll move in different directions, right and it's inevitable. Look,
if it's inevitable, then I have my first book, right,
doing divorce right. You gotta do right. Then you do
it right. You go see Laura. Great. But if there's
(14:21):
a glimmer of hope, work on it first. That's my
ted talk. And you know what, that's what it is.
So I have a book for everybody, right, soet so
that's it. That's fine, And you have so your podcast
is number four best divorced Podcasts of two tho by
feed spot dot com. And I think you're number one.
I don't think, we don't, but we're on the list.
(14:43):
We made it on the list. Talk to you, but
I welcome the stocking. It's been that, it's been that
kind of a month. Talk to us a little bit,
because again, we do have a lot of people that
tune in that want to know about divorce. One of
the reasons we kind of expanded our rain and to
make it all's fair as opposed to divorce sucks, was
really to talk about all relationships. And that's why I
(15:04):
was so interested in having you on, because I don't
want to just talk to people about divorce. I want
to talk about relationships overall, and so as you're coaching
people through divorce and you say the emotional stages of
divorce are denial, anger, and resentment. Yes, yes, I mean yeah,
I have you know like this, these like four secrets
to a successful relationship that I put in my second book,
which I think is why Oprah said, um, she put
(15:27):
me on the list of the best relationship books to
read with your partner for a healthy relationship. Nice. You know,
we talked about like I can't this is the one
that gets people and everyone's like, oh my god, she's crazy.
I tell people like, during a marriage, this is where
all the hands go up in the audience when I
speak in there like she's crazy. During a divorce, you
have to put your kids first. You have to put
your kids first. You have to think about your kids constantly,
(15:48):
put your egos aside, put your kids first right right.
During a marriage, you have to put your kids second.
And everyone audience goes, oh my god, you're crazy, Jennifer.
What you've talked thinking about the kids come first. No,
if you put your kids first during your marriage, you
will end up divorced. I'm like, I am divorced because
I put my kids first. I did I put them first.
(16:11):
A minute that came out of my vagina. I said, Mark,
to my husband, you are now second, and these boys
are first. And I forgot about him. I forgot about him.
I was the worst wife. I was the shittiest wife.
I'll tell you, like I didn't, I didn't care about
him anymore. I was the biggest pitch. I'm like, you know,
granted he was not the best husband either. You know,
we can we hold me own our ship, right, but
(16:32):
like what happened, Like I cared about my kids every
minute of the day, every second. It was Joan and Zach,
Joan and Zach. And then Mark was like, oh, I
mean we would going date nights every Saturday night. I
thought it was the best wife ever. And we talked
about the kids. I can cry in so many movies
and stuff. But isn't it nice to know now that
you're in this next chapter? Yeah? That, and I bet
(16:55):
it's really nice for Mark too. That's the person with
whom you have children. Yes, owes those children to put first,
even if it led to the demise of the marriage,
it's true, but that they were first, and so now
he knows, you know, when it's his week that you
are thinking about those kids even when you're with your
new partner. And I that's kind of how I think,
I think that I am in my relationships and I
(17:17):
feel like, you know, that's definitely But again, I got
into at least a couple of the relationships after I
already had a kid, because I have two from different guys,
and basically said, here's me because kid comes first, and yes,
and so you need to know that, and that's who
I am right now at this stage of my life.
But I have a lot of room to do other things.
And sometimes he is with his dad, and so this
(17:39):
is who I am. But you get two different you
get a little leeway because to be alone. But you think,
let me ask you what I'm interviewing you, But do
you think if you would look back at your at
your marriage, do you think that you that you would
have done a little bit differently had you thought or no, well,
I wasn't married to either of them, but to my relationships,
I don't if I would have, I kind of I
look at it differently, which is that in my life
(18:02):
during that phase, during those phases of child bearing and
child rearing, and again I'm still there. I have a
fifteen year old and a ten year old, Um, I
have a baby, but I definitely think that my choice
during that time was to put the kids first, and
I feel like again, that was probably my choice ever
since I decided to have kids and then moving on
(18:25):
to another stage as they're getting older, as they need
me less, which, by the way, is a time when
a lot of parents say when marriages, and or parents,
particularly we women, I think, what who am I now?
Because I'm not taking to play group or picking up
they're older, they're doing after school, so I don't even
see them from eight in the morning until five or something.
What is my identity if I am no longer mommy?
(18:48):
And also if to think about it too, not only
what is my identity? But who am I? Not only alone,
but where does my partner fit in? Right? Where do
I find that relationship again? How do I nurture that
relationship that was because so much no time into that
into your children, Like I couldn't even Mark and I
were married thirteen years and I didn't even know how
(19:08):
to find him again, Like I was so lost, And
I feel like if I would have hung around a
little bit longer and that jumped so soon into divorce.
I would have found him, because that's a national progression,
exactly what you're saying. I feel you're like, you're so right, Laura,
Like I would have found him, right, And I feel
like I kind of kind of jumped even though I
contemplated divorce for like almost three years. I needed four years,
you know what, right, Maybe if I just would have
(19:31):
I don't know. So it's it's hard for me to
think I regret it, just how you are today. We
lived once and we experienced today. But it is it
is very interesting to think about for me, at least,
phases of life, tingle through things and how they matter
to us. And you know what you and I were
saying about, like fitting mark back in. I mean I
(19:52):
look at my friends who's you know, either husbands or
or significant others are in the film industry or in
the music industry, and they go on tour or they
go on location, or people in the military. People then
they come back and you're kind of like wait, like
sleep in the middle of the bed, and you were
kind of messed up the routine and the kids don't
(20:12):
know how to relate to you in your disciplinary actions,
and so I really have to adjust back into having
two people there. That's hard. It's hard for both parties.
You're still right, You've got you're still right. Because my
usband he traveled um all week for work because he's
in thinking right, So it would come on the weekends
he'd be like, I'm home and I'd be like, what what,
what do you mean? Why are you home? What are
(20:34):
you doing here? People are experiencing this same concept right now.
This phenomena is happening because of COVID nineteen, because the
schedules are and routines are all out of wax. Such
a good segue. You're exactly right, Johnny, That's exactly right. Okay, So, like, Jennifer,
tell us a little bit about how you would a
(20:56):
tell a couple that's trying to hold it together during
this time and give tips, you know, some of the
spatial things that I've heard you talk about, etcetera. But
then also, if God forbid and this we both know
this has happened, you were on the brink of it.
It's already out there. You can't put the toothpaste back
in the tube. Tell us your tips for the they're
doing divorce right, for those guys that are stuck together. Okay,
(21:17):
So first of all, um, I think if you are,
you know some some good tips to like, you know,
if you're stuck together and you're in you you know,
space is a big one. So I think to really
say to your to your partner, look, here's what I need.
I need some some some times some space you take.
You know, Wednesday at seven o'clock, you get to go
for two hours, you know, whether it's go for a
(21:38):
run or you get to watch a movie in the
bedroom by yourself for your favorite binge watch whatever it is,
and I'll take the kids, right or um or vice versa. Right.
I think that's really super important. Um, you need to
find something a long time, even though you're stuck in
that house, don't you agree. Um. I also think that
that even you know, if you need a time out,
(21:58):
saying hey, mommy needs time out, I gotta go. I'm
gonna go outside, I'm going to take a walk, I'm
going to chill. Whatever it is to be able to
say in front of your children, you know, y'all, I
need a time out is a really big thing. I
think kids need to see that. I totally agree all
that he said, y'all, I don't know what my kids
do follow off the couch that they hit their head
and night with plenty of time. Where is my mother? Yeah?
(22:20):
You know when you live in Charlotte for ten years
and all of a sudden, you guys, you guys cheat
to y'all really super quickly. I don't know how it happens.
I like, when did you guys? Ya? You know what
else is really good too? And this is this has
maybe good and bad, I don't know, but like a
movie night or a game night. So game night is
good because you have to follow the rules. And it
also works if you're if the other side too, if
(22:40):
you're going if you're separated or you're divorce either either time,
it's good because you don't fight. You have to follow
the rules, so there's a less talking about everything else
and just concentrating on the game. It's off right and
same with and it enables you to kind of set
some boundaries. So now we know how to communicate that
we're using this a false situation, which is whether it's
(23:01):
monopoly or whatever. And now we know how to have
these boundaries as a separating couple, which I think I love, Yes,
I agree, And also the kids get to see you
working as a team even though you're not really a team, right,
You're still working as a team, which shows them that
later on you'll be able to do that as well. Yes,
I think that's really important. Do you talk to couples
(23:22):
about how they should tell their kids that they're getting
divorced in or out of quarantine? Yes? I do. And
you know what, I luckily, I'm so lucky because I
don't deal a lot with high conflict divorces because it's
not my jam. It's not really my thing because because
I you know, I don't have one. So it's so
I have great colleagues that I send my high conflict
(23:43):
people to write. But I thought we both have mutual
colleagues that do that stuff, which is, yes, you know,
it's not my thing. I I can't. It breaks my heart.
So um yeah, I do. The kids that co parenting
thing is really my thing. It's where I really love
So I mean telling them, telling them they're sewing up
and and being on the same page and having a
narrative that you work on together. Yes, And I'm really
(24:05):
about being honest, I really and I think the kids
need they don't like, um, knowing is knowledge is power.
Sure you know, and I think knowing as long as
they know, um, they're not scared. So I don't know
something that they feel that weird, like looming? Could this
be me? Did I do this as it gonna get worse?
You put it out there and then you kind of
(24:27):
take the wind out of it. I think absolutely this
is all's fair with Laura Wasser. My work as a
divorce attorney has proven to me that the famous proverb
all's fair in love and war absolutely sums up how
people behave when emotions are pushed outside the norm. Our
show is about relationships of all kinds, and good times
and the not so good. A perceptive person once observed
(24:48):
that in criminal law you see terrible people on their
best behavior, and in family law you see great people
on their worst behavior. The global health crisis that started
earlier this year adds another layer to all of our
relations and ships, making it necessary for us to be
even more mindful in our dealings with other people, especially
those with whom we're close and those with whom we
were once close. Behaving with the three season mind helps
(25:11):
with both types of your relationships cooperation, communication, and consideration.
We're speaking about all of this and how to navigate
relationships with author, podcast hosts and certified divorce specialist Jennifer
Hervit's Jennifer. As a CDs. You coach people through the
end of their marriages towards their next chapters, which I'm
a hopeful romantic, by the way, may include new loves
(25:32):
and if not necessarily Mr M is right at least
Mr ms right now, particularly when we get out of
quarantine and are all super horny. But anyways, during this
weird time, what advice can you share about dating during
quarantine that people can apply now and in the future.
Oh wow? Where do I start dating? Is my favorite?
Dating after divorce? My favorite topic? Where do you? Where
(25:53):
do we start? What do you wear? Oh my gosh,
what do we wear? Which time? I mean when we're doating,
when we're on in COVID. Let's talk about it COVID.
Let's talk about First of all, let's let me back up.
What do you prefer FaceTime versus zoom? Oh my gosh,
you know what, Well, here's my thing. I'm a FaceTime
girl because for me, like, well, I'm not really dating
and not have a boyfriend. But for me, I think
(26:14):
it's it's easier for me to be like, don't you
think it's easier to navigate? I don't know. I'm am
the Zoom. The Zoom has filters. You can put us
filter on on Zoom, which may be kind of unfair.
It's like, I'm not I feel like whenever I see
a filter, I feel like that you're not being honest.
So again, you show up at the actual you show
(26:36):
up at the date after COVID and he's like, why
is this flat? Why I don't understand about those. Why
I have girlfriends who actually look like different people when
they use filters, And right, do you think that that's yeah,
it's just not yeah. Well, the filter on Zoom, to
be fair, is just to touch up of the appearance.
It's not like, you know, a drastic change. And I
(26:56):
think anyone over the age of thirty need to touch
up their appearance. I will say this about FaceTime. I
couldn't look in a normal mirror in perfectly good light
in my home and see that I look fine, And
somehow when I go to FaceTime, I look curious. I mean,
it's got the it's got the anti like the bizarre
littld filter that actually just makes you, I just feel like,
(27:19):
you know what, but it is more convenient. It's more convenient. Yes,
we'll give you that, Jennifer. Yes, Yes, I also feel
like that. Yeah. I also feel like, here's the thing
about this whole, this whole dating thing. Right now, it's said,
the cool part about it is that you get to
see into the person's life, like really like right now,
like I'm seeing your cool partment of your cool house,
(27:40):
and you're seeing my fun thing and we're talking like
it's fun. I think if everyone just kind of chills
out a little bit and has a little fun with it.
I feel like, even when I talk to my clients,
which is my favorite thing to do, dating after divorce
is my favorite thing. I love it. Um I write,
i'mline dating profiles for people, and I love It's my
favorite thing. So even when I talk to my tids
and like, y'all just chill, like, don't don't be so
(28:02):
serious all the time about it, and have fun. I
think that people are just they're nervous and they're anxious,
and they feel like I'm never getting back out there
and I'm stuck in my house and I'm never gonna
have a kid, and I'm never going to get married.
I'm never like, I'm just a lot of pressure, A
lot of pressure, a lot of pressure. In the article
that we discussed at the top of the show by
(28:24):
the associate beauty and fitness editor at Well and Good,
she writes about the fact that these online dates right now,
when you can't leave your house, force a certain kind
of friendship and familiarity because you take sex out of
the equation. I love that. That's what actually I was
just I have then I just was about to say
that that it makes it like, it's less complicated. There's
(28:45):
less pressure to know that you don't have to have
sex with someone like unless you unless it's your game
plan is if it's your goal to just send not
social distancing, that is not social. But like, if you're
going into relationship, let's say you're you're in your point
in your life where you only want to have sex
with someone, like, then you're in trouble. Okay, this is
not true, it's not your time. But if, like, if
you are really looking to have a relationship, this is
your perfect time. There's no time like now, y'all get
(29:08):
out there and do this because you don't have to
have sex there's no pressure. It's cheap. This is the
cheap for men. Like take your guys, it's free for that. Right,
Let's go on and art. You know, there's so many
good ideas right now, Like you can go on an
art tour and art museum tour. You can have a
game night, you can have a picnic in your living room,
be creative. I mean, it's free and it's fun. Like
(29:30):
maybe I'll get you know, maybe I'll breakup with my
boyfriend start over. And there's a new app called Quarantine
Together that text its users every night asking if they
washed their hands. If the answer is yes, they're paired
with another hand washer and given sixty minutes to text.
Then each party is asked whether they want to do
a video call, and then they take it from there.
When when did that come out with technology? Well? Yes,
(29:52):
since the was it? Like with the last twenty four
hours because I've not heard of that, John Well you
heard it here first breaking news on All Taking. What's
it called, Johnny, It is called Quarantine Together. Quarantine Together.
I love it so generally speaking that Jen, I mean,
if people are getting out of a marriage. I remember
(30:12):
speaking to so many women about the first intimacy, the
first sex that they're having after being in a marriage
for a long time. You were married for thirteen years.
How do you I mean that it really especially for women,
but I think for men to the idea of getting naked,
you certainly are going to look different than you looked
(30:32):
when you were dating before you married your your spouse.
Some of us have C section scars like some of us,
how do you how do you kind of overcome that?
Besides and again no judgment, but you know, smoking little pod,
eating a gummy, having a bottle or seven of wine?
Besides that, what are the things that you tell your
clients to be saying in their head to themselves working
(30:53):
through to make it a more comfortable and pleasant experience?
Do you want the truth? Okay, so I want you
to want to Why do you la? Why? I mean
the trip is to honestly, I learned from I learned
from my mistakes, So I really tell my clients honestly
from my mistakes. Like I did it too soon. I
(31:15):
was like, you know, fuck it, I'm just gonna do
this and I'm gonna get it over with ye excuse
me exactly. I was just like, you know what, I
wasn't even grudge from me. It was just like I
haven't I was kind of like a sexless last Like,
you know, I had sex in a long time. So
I was like, I'm just gonna get out them, and
I just I didn't do it right. That is not
(31:35):
the best way to go. I was like, you know what,
I thought in my head I was okay, and my
head was was not okay, and my body was okay.
And then I was like, wait, a huge disconnect, I think,
and I really do feel this way. You need time.
Time is really really important to get your ship together,
and I think I didn't. I didn't give myself any
(31:58):
of that. I didn't know who I was a single person.
My head didn't know who I was as a single person.
I didn't know who I was right, um, and I
thought it would be okay and I was not. What
about for guys, do you think it's the same thing
that they also should take time or because I know
it's sometimes easier for men to separate the sort of
emotional and the physical component of sex than it might
(32:21):
be for some women, what do you recommend fun that's funny?
I thought I was like a guy. I thought to myself.
I said that to myself actually, like you know, I'm
like a guy. I'll be fine. I'll still I'll go
out there, I'll do it. I'll be You know what's
funny about that. I think everyone needs about a year.
And I say that because I think a year to
date seriously, I mean, I would look, if you want
to have sex, squab sex, I I did. I had sex.
I couldn't wait. I'm sorry, But like then, after I
(32:42):
had sex, I thought, like the first guy out of
the gate, I thought, oh I was this was it
for me? I was in love with him. It was
the worst relationship, even worse than I totally agree you
can't jump into a new relationship, but and don't you
think that it might make sense again, not to just
you know, funk everything inside, but to be able to
kind of get your sea legs back a little bit,
because then if not, when you meet the right person,
(33:03):
it maybe too much or maybe it's perfect. I don't know,
And for everybody it's going to be different, but I
think you should definitely. I think if you want to
be very clear that the All Fair Podcast is not
recommending that you wait a year to have sex. No, No,
I thought you mean, like a real complation, I would
say have sex immediately, all fair, just go out there
and do it. Definitely have don't wait. Every here for
(33:24):
good thinks, who oh, I can't wait that one. No,
you have to have sex. But I think if you
think that that sex is is going to be your
real relationship, and it probably isn't going to be a
real relationship even if you did wait a year, because
because you need to get back out there and you,
like Jennifer said, figure out who you are. Yes, I
think we spend so much of the end of our
(33:45):
relationships thinking about who the other person is and who
we're leaving, and all of those things. The denial and
the anger and the resentment is all really really focused
on somebody else. Then you're out and you are left
with only one person, and sometimes you're still dealing with
the other person because you're figuring out support and customer,
so you can still have those feelings about that person.
(34:06):
But try to turn a little bit inwards, guys, and
think about you and who you are and what you
may have done to precipitate the end of the relationship,
what you can do to make it better with this person.
If you're going to co parent with them and then
what you need moving forward. Yes, you know, when you're
pointing the finger outward, there are three pointing back at yourself.
See that again, Johnny, say that again. When you're pointing
(34:28):
your pointing the finger at someone, there are three pointing
back at yourself. You know, because Laura you said that
it was really important to me. Is that you have
to hold yourself accountable for the things you did in
your last relationship so that you can move forward. You
have to take some ownership of what you did, and
I don't think a lot of people can do that. Yeah,
and also kind of figure out who you are. If
you've been married for a long time like that, you
lose yourself a little we all, do, you know. I
(34:51):
think that's important. For more tips from Jennifer about dating,
after divorce, during and after COVID nineteen, visit it's over
easy dot com. Scroll down to the article is that
Matter to jump to the Insights blog and search Jennifer
hervit's H two r V I t Z because it's
there's some great stuff on there. So, Jennifer, we've gotten
to the point of the podcast where we asked the interrogatories.
(35:12):
Are you ready, I'm ready. Do you swear to tell
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Jennifer,
I only tell the truth. Okay, I'm gonna hold the bullshit. Guys,
I'm gonna hold the bullshit. Which relationship in your life
has had the most profound impact? You try to say
without crying. My son, Jonah. Um, he taught me how
to be a mom. He taught me how to be
(35:33):
a mom. See the oldest, he's my oldest, and he's
on the spectrum and so I, um, would you wouldn't
even know anymore because he's falling right off of it.
But I tell people that, um, children change your lifestyle,
but that Jonah changed my life. So yeah, I love that.
I just got the chills. I think that's so true.
And again, having a first child who is on the
spectrum and really deal and again enough that you actually
(35:55):
could see a change for him to come off, he
wouldn't even know, he wouldn't even Thank you a lot
we did, I say, team Jonah. We did a lot
of work. My whole family saw. I'm really proud of him. Good.
All right, what is your favorite love song? Okay, so
like this is embarrassing for for myself. But I can't.
I can't lie. I'm a Bieber fan, like crazy Justin
Bieber fan. I'm like I would stalk him. I'm crazy
(36:16):
stalk him. I love one less lonely girl. I want
to beat up, want to. I just would like to
say that I'm in very good company with Justin Bieber
and me being stock by Jennifer Herbitt's that's right. You know,
I'm almost the same person that. I mean, you are
the same you could be if you were Haley Bieber,
the three of us. I just I can't even take
it and love him and I also love that guy
got fans so million reas. Whatever have you been reading?
(36:37):
I guess there was an article that came out that
she did in an interview that Hayley did about when
they broke up. It's all over the internet right now.
I just searched just so and I didn't even read
the article because I am admittedly not the biggest fan.
I'm not an AUNTI but I just but she. I
just saw a bunch of headlines as I was flipping
through because I do all the time, which was Hailey
talks about her past up because I'm sure the internet
(37:01):
would have broken if they broke up past breakup with
with Justin and and how that felt. It might be
interesting to read given what we do. Yeah, I can't
like getting nervous even thinking about their breaking up? Whatever?
To who would I say? They're solid? What is the
one piece of advice that you would share with your
twenty something year old self? How old were you and
you married Mark? I was twenty eight and I still
(37:23):
think it was too soon. That's my ted talk in October.
So I actually, um, I would say slow down. I
would say slow down, jenn slow it down? Got it?
Which romantic comedy could you watch on repeat? Jennifer? I
mean Jerry McGuire had sty You had me at Jerry McGuire.
All right, Jennifer, Thank you for zooming into all spare today.
(37:44):
Tell people where they can find your blog, your podcast
and you online. It's easy. Jennifer Herbert's dot com and
Jennifer Herbert's is everywhere else. Thank you Loura for having me, Johnny,
thank you loved having you. Check out her books, guys,
They're amazing. She's lovely. Um. Hopefully we can put an
end to not only COVID nineteen. But the tornadoes on
the Locus and the killer bees and the earthquakes, and
(38:05):
have you out to l a yes, and and see
you soon. Bye bye, you guys, thank you, and thank
you for listening to All's Fair. We'll be back next week.
Stay safe. Bye h
Hi there, it's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce service.
I've been practicing family law for over twenty years and
I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
(00:24):
may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.
Along the way, I often have to remind people to
lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Rules simply don't apply. Because all's fair in love and war.
So welcome to the All's Fair Podcasts. Fasten your seatbelts
and let's go. Hi there, it's me Laura Wasser, and
(00:46):
this is All's Fair. My name is Johnny Rains. Thanks
for listening today. The All's Fair podcast and the It's
over Easy community are all about relationships, and we're also
fascinated with the evolution of families, particularly in their next chapters.
As a society were constantly evolving, and we recognize that
the American family structure is redefined almost on a daily basis.
(01:08):
But divorces all around us. I mean, who doesn't know
someone who's divorced. It's not as scandalous or taboo as
it used to be. That being said, it is a
profound change, and I know many people go to great
lengths to keep a marriage together. And speaking of modern love,
I know you love that section in the New York Times.
The story you sent me last weekend about that couple
who quote unquote cracked a window, so to speak, in
(01:30):
their marriage to let in some a is a burning
example of what you just said. That was that was
that the Burning Man article? Did you get it from
my joke? Did you like that? You're very clever? I
love that. And again I kind of felt like her.
This article, guys, was about a couple and they've been
married a long time and the husband had always really
wanted to go to Burning Man. And she was like, which,
(01:52):
that's kind of how I feel about it too, Like
I don't want to see a bunch of like wealthy,
rich people naked and tripping in the day. I love
how her friends says, when she hears Burning Man, she
she thinks it's sand in the vagina. Yes, that's kind
of how I feel too, anyway. But she she like,
she opens up to it, and she goes and they
have this really amazing experience together, and I loved it.
(02:14):
I just love the idea, particularly when you hear I
hear so many people splitting up about how she was
willing to do something and it really kept them together.
And I love that. Yes, the article was by Deborah
Joe Immergut, and she was a former magazine editor and
her husband was a documentarian and they went and did
(02:34):
this and I loved it. Yes, and she at the
moral of the story, um is, she says, two years later,
we're experiencing the opposite of burning Man, hunger down in
self quarantine and their new England house as the pandemic
switched the globe. Yet I think we internalized enough of
that wide open space at Burning Man to know the
need for psychic distance in our marriage, and we're better
(02:55):
at maintaining it while still sharing love and support during
a frightening time. But I think, and again, as you know,
I don't want divorce to be regarded as a failure
or a nightmare, because it's really an evolution and a
transition of the way your family functions. I mean, I I,
for one, don't necessarily believe that the majority of humans
(03:15):
are meant to mate for life. Those that do, God bless.
I'm happy to sure you on help you through it,
do whatever I can, but those who don't, and I
speak to new clients on the phone every day and
it's over easy users about the idea of well, let's
see what this is going to look like a year
from now, and how happy you'll be with your co
parent and maybe even a new relationship that's starting but
(03:36):
in a healthier, happier place. Well, speaking of new relationships,
evidently there is life, love and sex after divorce. And
it's interesting when you mentioned the evolution how people's relationships
are adapting now that COVID nineteen is part of our vocabulary.
Even the way people date is different. And if you
are dating or thinking about it, here are the latest
tips for dating during quarantine. Number one, this one really
(04:00):
made me laugh, is come up with some kind of joke.
I mean this, this chick says on her first video date,
I don't normally invite boys into my bedroom on the
first date. Um as she answers the call, and then
she starts out with, so how's your quarantine going? I
don't know, it's kind of corny. What I liked about
this article was that it mentioned some new apps about dating.
(04:22):
I think that the gist of It is kind of,
you know, targeted towards millennials, but the truth is everyone
these days, whether you're a millennial, gen X or or
baby boomer, you're all stuck inside and people are dating
on video conference. Remember that story Mary sent us about
the couple that had kind of met right before, and
so they would have their He would drop meal off
(04:43):
at her house or she would drop a meal off
at his house and they'd eat together. Kind of. I
gotta tell you, I think it's lovely. I'm out. I'm
gonna wait. I'm gonna wait another few weeks before I
get back out there because I just I can't. I
need to see a person, I need to sit across
from them, I need to have a meal. Den's nodding,
all right. So anyway, dating after divorce, whether it's during
(05:04):
quarantine or in the best of times, it can be awkward.
We know that, and we speak about some of this
with dating expert and Hotter in our video series Next
Chapter Life After Divorce, which is available at Next Chapter
series dot com, but today joining us in the Flesh
via zoom. It's one of the leading experts on dating
and divorce. She's a relationship coach, best selling author and
(05:26):
the host of Doing Divorce Right or Avoiding It All
Together podcast. Welcome to All's Fair Jennifer Herbitt's, Hi, guys, Thanks,
thank you, guys, thank you. I'm very excited about this.
So I went on your website. I did a little
bit of research. So you've been happily divorced. I don't
(05:46):
hear many people say that you don't think about it
when you're happily divorce, but most people hopefully are. Since
two thousand fourteen, and you live in Charlotte, North Carolina
with your two teenage boys, and you have a degree
in family and child he call oology. What's child ecology?
You know what? It's been so long. I forget, you know,
It's just it's one of those things like you get
you go to school and you're like, what will I do?
(06:08):
I'm a rst degree. I don't know, you know, It's
one of those things. And then I got a school,
and like I got married right right to get married
right families, and we think happily ever after forever. And
then thirteen years later, here I am divorced. It's got it.
And I said, tell people, I made a career out
of my divorce right, which yeah, I mean that I
kind of backed into it the other way, but I
(06:29):
feel the same way and helping people through this experience.
I mean, I had been practicing divorce law for probably
twenty years by the time wrote the book, launched It's
over Easy website, and I thought, I gotta there has
to be a better way of doing this, that this
has to be a better way of doing this. And
so we are kind of seeing the needle move. So
you're also a certified divorce specialists, and UM tell us
(06:54):
a little bit about that. I mean, your blog is
the true herb its blog, and I love the act
that you're just totally bullshit free and refreshing, Like hold
the bullshit, you know. I feel like you never think
you're gonna get divorced, right, you go to the Cuba,
you go to the altar, You're like, this is it.
You know, if you asked a hundred you know, newly
engaged couples, who's getting divorced? No one's raising their hands, right,
(07:17):
everyone's thinking, you're gonna stay married forever. That was me.
I thought I'm going to stay married forever. So um,
I tell people all the time, you know, I'm not
happy to be divorced. I'm happily divorced to totally different things. Right.
So I took I think I took a really shitty
situation and I did the best I possibly could. And
my husband, I call him my husband. I wasn't. Yeah,
my usband and I are seriously like, we're best friends.
(07:40):
I have to tell you, and I know that that's rare,
and I know that people are like, oh, she's crazy, crap,
it's bullshit. No, we really are. We're really good friends.
I talked to him all the time. Um, and we
we comparent my back stars. So it takes time. It
took time to get there, but we're here. So and
I don't know when this will air, so we might
all still be inside or we might have all correct
and of the light. But tell us what you and
(08:01):
your husband are doing with your kids during this pandemic
stay at home thing? Okay, exactly the same thing we
always do. We we co creant and we have week
on and week off, so they're with me one week
and then they go to my you know, and my
It's funny my kids say, Mom, thank god you guys
you know do because they get to see like two
(08:22):
different spaces. Don't you the best thing ever? Yes? And
again that's what judges throughout the country generally speaking, which
is it has nothing to do with us, like yes,
maybe that first morning after they're gone, either you're like
oh or you're like yes, either way, depending on the
week and depending on whatever. Let's go. But and I
(08:43):
tell people this all the time. I go, yeah, that
first few times, it's going to be difficult, but then
you really value your free time, your kid free time.
And I think it for me, at least, it enables
me to be a better and more present parent. And
then I'm better and more present, whether it's partner, you know, attorney,
what CEO of my company, whatever it is, I can
(09:05):
really be present. So I think we are actually lucky
to have this opportunity. But more important than for us
was my main point. But then I of course digressed
into talking about me that happen it's good for the kids.
I mean, I say too all the time. Don't you
want your kids to be able to experience both of you?
(09:27):
Don't you want them to have that for better Yes?
And and I and I think kids want that, they
need that, even if one parent in in your mind
is not as good of a parent. They're the parent
that they are. And you know, in most instances, unless
they're really providing a safety hazard to your kids emotionally
or physically, you get what you get. And that's what
(09:50):
that's what makes you who you are as you go
into an adult. And so it's really important that they
experience that. You can't shield them from their other parents.
And when they come back to me right after being
I'm like, oh my god, they're all right, and let's
give me those kids. And then twenty minutes later, I'm like,
sh you know, I'm just kidding, but like and then
I'm a percent to get And you know, I've been
in a three year relationship my my boyfriend and I
(10:11):
You're gonna love this. We we don't we don't blend families, right,
And that's true. So I don't know if you know
that about me, But they've my kids have never met
his kids. So we have really three years. Yeah, so
we're we what are the ages of all the kids?
All teenagers? So we compared the same. He has week
so every week apart we both ever kids, right, and
then when we get together, we have a week together.
(10:32):
So I give him a percent of me, and then
I get like, we give our kids. Yes, beautiful, but
like if they ever asked, have they ever been killed?
They know about each other and they met, they've met him, Okay, yeah,
my kids have loved him. Okay for me so much,
but it's okay, okay, right are his kids girls? Two boys?
I have two loves, he has two boys. Just don't
(10:52):
care that, like, you know what, why why mess it up?
It's all good? I heartily agree. I agree. I just
was gonna let you know, Laura, so you may recall
Jennifer was on our schedule, um several weeks ago, and
then there was a tornado and you were with your kids,
your team. Wow. How so I just have to ask,
how is everything now? Everyone's thank you. It's good to know.
(11:12):
Now it's hurricane season. I love Charlotte. I cannot stand it.
Everyone who I mean, the South is crazy, but Charlotte
is not. You guys, I'm from Detroit, obviously you can
hear me. But I'm from Detroit. I'm totally northern. And
my ex husband, of course, we were married, we moved here,
so I see, I'm happily stock right. I cannot wait
to get just give you out there. But so it's
crazy here that were tornadoes, hurricanes, two earthquakes today? Oh
(11:35):
my god. Yeah, we had an earth quite the other day.
Yeah it was I don't most people didn't even feel it.
I'm a very light sleeper. Was it like three in
the morning and it was like a two point eight
or some Did you feel it? I did? Of course.
I always feel them, especially when they're late at night.
Oh my gosh, you guys, my brother lives in l A.
So but we don't have the hurricanes in the tornado
(11:55):
and then have you heard about these like Killer b
Lucas you talk about it was so fun. This is
the most fun I had. What is that? I don't know.
I want to talk about your books though, that's okay.
So in two thousand and seventeen, you wrote One Happy Divorce,
Hold the bullshit. That was so fun and that was cathartic.
In two thousand nineteen, you wrote what It Could Have,
(12:15):
A Divorce Coaches Guide to Staying Married and this was
highlighted on Oprah magazine and the Best of two thousand nineteen. Less. Yeah,
that's day in my life. So tell us, I mean,
tell us why the two thousand seventeen book was cathartic.
And then tell us what I mean. I wrote one book,
and I really have always said, I don't think I
have another book in me. I'm not sure. Two years later,
(12:35):
you're back at me. You do lord like? Eighteen months
later was crazy. The first one, I was not in
a good place. The first one, I was like, I
gotta tell my story. This is like I just gotten separated.
I'm like, this is for me. First book was for me.
It was cathartic. I was nesting. You know, I know
you're testing. Was nesting. I was like, this is for me. Fine.
The second book, I'm like, I got to tell people
(12:57):
what divorce really looks like. I've got to be honest.
I've lost all my friends, my kids lost all their friends.
This is bullshit. Nobody knows the truth. I'm gonna spill it.
And so the second moment, Look, people who are married,
you need to know the truth before you jump, because
if you don't know what's really going on, no one's
going to tell you but me. So I decided to
tell all the married people in the world what divorce
really looks like and try to save a few marriages.
(13:18):
And people are like why it crazy, And I'm like, no,
I'm gonna do it. So I did. And do you
have you seen? Because people ask me this a lot too.
I will send people away and said to go on
your marriage. I love it. If you're if your main
concern is money, I'll say to people like, hey, cheaper
to keeper. Find out how to make this work. And
more importantly, if it's not his bullshit, it's going to
(13:39):
be somebody else's bullshit. Oh my god, I love you.
That is exactly what I felt. I'm like, the divorce
grass is not greener, y'all? Are you kidding? Needs staying
married if you can work at now. Look, obviously there's
caveat if you if you're a horribly abusive physically views
of emotional get divorced. But if there's a little glimmer
of hope that you know, you have kids, work on it.
Do the work, put the work. And if you think
(13:59):
it's going to be these are on the other side
of you, rush God suck your bong. Right. But there
is also the point when when relationships just you know,
get to their natural end, they evolved to the point
where like you'll move in different directions, right and it's inevitable. Look,
if it's inevitable, then I have my first book, right,
doing divorce right. You gotta do right. Then you do
it right. You go see Laura. Great. But if there's
(14:21):
a glimmer of hope, work on it first. That's my
ted talk. And you know what, that's what it is.
So I have a book for everybody, right, soet so
that's it. That's fine, And you have so your podcast
is number four best divorced Podcasts of two tho by
feed spot dot com. And I think you're number one.
I don't think, we don't, but we're on the list.
(14:43):
We made it on the list. Talk to you, but
I welcome the stocking. It's been that, it's been that
kind of a month. Talk to us a little bit,
because again, we do have a lot of people that
tune in that want to know about divorce. One of
the reasons we kind of expanded our rain and to
make it all's fair as opposed to divorce sucks, was
really to talk about all relationships. And that's why I
(15:04):
was so interested in having you on, because I don't
want to just talk to people about divorce. I want
to talk about relationships overall, and so as you're coaching
people through divorce and you say the emotional stages of
divorce are denial, anger, and resentment. Yes, yes, I mean yeah,
I have you know like this, these like four secrets
to a successful relationship that I put in my second book,
which I think is why Oprah said, um, she put
(15:27):
me on the list of the best relationship books to
read with your partner for a healthy relationship. Nice. You know,
we talked about like I can't this is the one
that gets people and everyone's like, oh my god, she's crazy.
I tell people like, during a marriage, this is where
all the hands go up in the audience when I
speak in there like she's crazy. During a divorce, you
have to put your kids first. You have to put
your kids first. You have to think about your kids constantly,
(15:48):
put your egos aside, put your kids first right right.
During a marriage, you have to put your kids second.
And everyone audience goes, oh my god, you're crazy, Jennifer.
What you've talked thinking about the kids come first. No,
if you put your kids first during your marriage, you
will end up divorced. I'm like, I am divorced because
I put my kids first. I did I put them first.
(16:11):
A minute that came out of my vagina. I said, Mark,
to my husband, you are now second, and these boys
are first. And I forgot about him. I forgot about him.
I was the worst wife. I was the shittiest wife.
I'll tell you, like I didn't, I didn't care about
him anymore. I was the biggest pitch. I'm like, you know,
granted he was not the best husband either. You know,
we can we hold me own our ship, right, but
(16:32):
like what happened, Like I cared about my kids every
minute of the day, every second. It was Joan and Zach,
Joan and Zach. And then Mark was like, oh, I
mean we would going date nights every Saturday night. I
thought it was the best wife ever. And we talked
about the kids. I can cry in so many movies
and stuff. But isn't it nice to know now that
you're in this next chapter? Yeah? That, and I bet
(16:55):
it's really nice for Mark too. That's the person with
whom you have children. Yes, owes those children to put first,
even if it led to the demise of the marriage,
it's true, but that they were first, and so now
he knows, you know, when it's his week that you
are thinking about those kids even when you're with your
new partner. And I that's kind of how I think,
I think that I am in my relationships and I
(17:17):
feel like, you know, that's definitely But again, I got
into at least a couple of the relationships after I
already had a kid, because I have two from different guys,
and basically said, here's me because kid comes first, and yes,
and so you need to know that, and that's who
I am right now at this stage of my life.
But I have a lot of room to do other things.
And sometimes he is with his dad, and so this
(17:39):
is who I am. But you get two different you
get a little leeway because to be alone. But you think,
let me ask you what I'm interviewing you, But do
you think if you would look back at your at
your marriage, do you think that you that you would
have done a little bit differently had you thought or no, well,
I wasn't married to either of them, but to my relationships,
I don't if I would have, I kind of I
look at it differently, which is that in my life
(18:02):
during that phase, during those phases of child bearing and
child rearing, and again I'm still there. I have a
fifteen year old and a ten year old, Um, I
have a baby, but I definitely think that my choice
during that time was to put the kids first, and
I feel like again, that was probably my choice ever
since I decided to have kids and then moving on
(18:25):
to another stage as they're getting older, as they need
me less, which, by the way, is a time when
a lot of parents say when marriages, and or parents,
particularly we women, I think, what who am I now?
Because I'm not taking to play group or picking up
they're older, they're doing after school, so I don't even
see them from eight in the morning until five or something.
What is my identity if I am no longer mommy?
(18:48):
And also if to think about it too, not only
what is my identity? But who am I? Not only alone,
but where does my partner fit in? Right? Where do
I find that relationship again? How do I nurture that
relationship that was because so much no time into that
into your children, Like I couldn't even Mark and I
were married thirteen years and I didn't even know how
(19:08):
to find him again, Like I was so lost, And
I feel like if I would have hung around a
little bit longer and that jumped so soon into divorce.
I would have found him, because that's a national progression,
exactly what you're saying. I feel you're like, you're so right, Laura,
Like I would have found him, right, And I feel
like I kind of kind of jumped even though I
contemplated divorce for like almost three years. I needed four years,
you know what, right, Maybe if I just would have
(19:31):
I don't know. So it's it's hard for me to
think I regret it, just how you are today. We
lived once and we experienced today. But it is it
is very interesting to think about for me, at least,
phases of life, tingle through things and how they matter
to us. And you know what you and I were
saying about, like fitting mark back in. I mean I
(19:52):
look at my friends who's you know, either husbands or
or significant others are in the film industry or in
the music industry, and they go on tour or they
go on location, or people in the military. People then
they come back and you're kind of like wait, like
sleep in the middle of the bed, and you were
kind of messed up the routine and the kids don't
(20:12):
know how to relate to you in your disciplinary actions,
and so I really have to adjust back into having
two people there. That's hard. It's hard for both parties.
You're still right, You've got you're still right. Because my
usband he traveled um all week for work because he's
in thinking right, So it would come on the weekends
he'd be like, I'm home and I'd be like, what what,
what do you mean? Why are you home? What are
(20:34):
you doing here? People are experiencing this same concept right now.
This phenomena is happening because of COVID nineteen, because the
schedules are and routines are all out of wax. Such
a good segue. You're exactly right, Johnny, That's exactly right. Okay, So, like, Jennifer,
tell us a little bit about how you would a
(20:56):
tell a couple that's trying to hold it together during
this time and give tips, you know, some of the
spatial things that I've heard you talk about, etcetera. But
then also, if God forbid and this we both know
this has happened, you were on the brink of it.
It's already out there. You can't put the toothpaste back
in the tube. Tell us your tips for the they're
doing divorce right, for those guys that are stuck together. Okay,
(21:17):
So first of all, um, I think if you are,
you know some some good tips to like, you know,
if you're stuck together and you're in you you know,
space is a big one. So I think to really
say to your to your partner, look, here's what I need.
I need some some some times some space you take.
You know, Wednesday at seven o'clock, you get to go
for two hours, you know, whether it's go for a
(21:38):
run or you get to watch a movie in the
bedroom by yourself for your favorite binge watch whatever it is,
and I'll take the kids, right or um or vice versa. Right.
I think that's really super important. Um, you need to
find something a long time, even though you're stuck in
that house, don't you agree. Um. I also think that
that even you know, if you need a time out,
(21:58):
saying hey, mommy needs time out, I gotta go. I'm
gonna go outside, I'm going to take a walk, I'm
going to chill. Whatever it is to be able to
say in front of your children, you know, y'all, I
need a time out is a really big thing. I
think kids need to see that. I totally agree all
that he said, y'all, I don't know what my kids
do follow off the couch that they hit their head
and night with plenty of time. Where is my mother? Yeah?
(22:20):
You know when you live in Charlotte for ten years
and all of a sudden, you guys, you guys cheat
to y'all really super quickly. I don't know how it happens.
I like, when did you guys? Ya? You know what
else is really good too? And this is this has
maybe good and bad, I don't know, but like a
movie night or a game night. So game night is
good because you have to follow the rules. And it
also works if you're if the other side too, if
(22:40):
you're going if you're separated or you're divorce either either time,
it's good because you don't fight. You have to follow
the rules, so there's a less talking about everything else
and just concentrating on the game. It's off right and
same with and it enables you to kind of set
some boundaries. So now we know how to communicate that
we're using this a false situation, which is whether it's
(23:01):
monopoly or whatever. And now we know how to have
these boundaries as a separating couple, which I think I love, Yes,
I agree, And also the kids get to see you
working as a team even though you're not really a team, right,
You're still working as a team, which shows them that
later on you'll be able to do that as well. Yes,
I think that's really important. Do you talk to couples
(23:22):
about how they should tell their kids that they're getting
divorced in or out of quarantine? Yes? I do. And
you know what, I luckily, I'm so lucky because I
don't deal a lot with high conflict divorces because it's
not my jam. It's not really my thing because because
I you know, I don't have one. So it's so
I have great colleagues that I send my high conflict
(23:43):
people to write. But I thought we both have mutual
colleagues that do that stuff, which is, yes, you know,
it's not my thing. I I can't. It breaks my heart.
So um yeah, I do. The kids that co parenting
thing is really my thing. It's where I really love
So I mean telling them, telling them they're sewing up
and and being on the same page and having a
narrative that you work on together. Yes, And I'm really
(24:05):
about being honest, I really and I think the kids
need they don't like, um, knowing is knowledge is power.
Sure you know, and I think knowing as long as
they know, um, they're not scared. So I don't know
something that they feel that weird, like looming? Could this
be me? Did I do this as it gonna get worse?
You put it out there and then you kind of
(24:27):
take the wind out of it. I think absolutely this
is all's fair with Laura Wasser. My work as a
divorce attorney has proven to me that the famous proverb
all's fair in love and war absolutely sums up how
people behave when emotions are pushed outside the norm. Our
show is about relationships of all kinds, and good times
and the not so good. A perceptive person once observed
(24:48):
that in criminal law you see terrible people on their
best behavior, and in family law you see great people
on their worst behavior. The global health crisis that started
earlier this year adds another layer to all of our
relations and ships, making it necessary for us to be
even more mindful in our dealings with other people, especially
those with whom we're close and those with whom we
were once close. Behaving with the three season mind helps
(25:11):
with both types of your relationships cooperation, communication, and consideration.
We're speaking about all of this and how to navigate
relationships with author, podcast hosts and certified divorce specialist Jennifer
Hervit's Jennifer. As a CDs. You coach people through the
end of their marriages towards their next chapters, which I'm
a hopeful romantic, by the way, may include new loves
(25:32):
and if not necessarily Mr M is right at least
Mr ms right now, particularly when we get out of
quarantine and are all super horny. But anyways, during this
weird time, what advice can you share about dating during
quarantine that people can apply now and in the future.
Oh wow? Where do I start dating? Is my favorite?
Dating after divorce? My favorite topic? Where do you? Where
(25:53):
do we start? What do you wear? Oh my gosh,
what do we wear? Which time? I mean when we're doating,
when we're on in COVID. Let's talk about it COVID.
Let's talk about First of all, let's let me back up.
What do you prefer FaceTime versus zoom? Oh my gosh,
you know what, Well, here's my thing. I'm a FaceTime
girl because for me, like, well, I'm not really dating
and not have a boyfriend. But for me, I think
(26:14):
it's it's easier for me to be like, don't you
think it's easier to navigate? I don't know. I'm am
the Zoom. The Zoom has filters. You can put us
filter on on Zoom, which may be kind of unfair.
It's like, I'm not I feel like whenever I see
a filter, I feel like that you're not being honest.
So again, you show up at the actual you show
(26:36):
up at the date after COVID and he's like, why
is this flat? Why I don't understand about those. Why
I have girlfriends who actually look like different people when
they use filters, And right, do you think that that's yeah,
it's just not yeah. Well, the filter on Zoom, to
be fair, is just to touch up of the appearance.
It's not like, you know, a drastic change. And I
(26:56):
think anyone over the age of thirty need to touch
up their appearance. I will say this about FaceTime. I
couldn't look in a normal mirror in perfectly good light
in my home and see that I look fine, And
somehow when I go to FaceTime, I look curious. I mean,
it's got the it's got the anti like the bizarre
littld filter that actually just makes you, I just feel like,
(27:19):
you know what, but it is more convenient. It's more convenient. Yes,
we'll give you that, Jennifer. Yes, Yes, I also feel
like that. Yeah. I also feel like, here's the thing
about this whole, this whole dating thing. Right now, it's said,
the cool part about it is that you get to
see into the person's life, like really like right now,
like I'm seeing your cool partment of your cool house,
(27:40):
and you're seeing my fun thing and we're talking like
it's fun. I think if everyone just kind of chills
out a little bit and has a little fun with it.
I feel like, even when I talk to my clients,
which is my favorite thing to do, dating after divorce
is my favorite thing. I love it. Um I write,
i'mline dating profiles for people, and I love It's my
favorite thing. So even when I talk to my tids
and like, y'all just chill, like, don't don't be so
(28:02):
serious all the time about it, and have fun. I
think that people are just they're nervous and they're anxious,
and they feel like I'm never getting back out there
and I'm stuck in my house and I'm never gonna
have a kid, and I'm never going to get married.
I'm never like, I'm just a lot of pressure, A
lot of pressure, a lot of pressure. In the article
that we discussed at the top of the show by
(28:24):
the associate beauty and fitness editor at Well and Good,
she writes about the fact that these online dates right now,
when you can't leave your house, force a certain kind
of friendship and familiarity because you take sex out of
the equation. I love that. That's what actually I was
just I have then I just was about to say
that that it makes it like, it's less complicated. There's
(28:45):
less pressure to know that you don't have to have
sex with someone like unless you unless it's your game
plan is if it's your goal to just send not
social distancing, that is not social. But like, if you're
going into relationship, let's say you're you're in your point
in your life where you only want to have sex
with someone, like, then you're in trouble. Okay, this is
not true, it's not your time. But if, like, if
you are really looking to have a relationship, this is
your perfect time. There's no time like now, y'all get
(29:08):
out there and do this because you don't have to
have sex there's no pressure. It's cheap. This is the
cheap for men. Like take your guys, it's free for that. Right,
Let's go on and art. You know, there's so many
good ideas right now, Like you can go on an
art tour and art museum tour. You can have a
game night, you can have a picnic in your living room,
be creative. I mean, it's free and it's fun. Like
(29:30):
maybe I'll get you know, maybe I'll breakup with my
boyfriend start over. And there's a new app called Quarantine
Together that text its users every night asking if they
washed their hands. If the answer is yes, they're paired
with another hand washer and given sixty minutes to text.
Then each party is asked whether they want to do
a video call, and then they take it from there.
When when did that come out with technology? Well? Yes,
(29:52):
since the was it? Like with the last twenty four
hours because I've not heard of that, John Well you
heard it here first breaking news on All Taking. What's
it called, Johnny, It is called Quarantine Together. Quarantine Together.
I love it so generally speaking that Jen, I mean,
if people are getting out of a marriage. I remember
(30:12):
speaking to so many women about the first intimacy, the
first sex that they're having after being in a marriage
for a long time. You were married for thirteen years.
How do you I mean that it really especially for women,
but I think for men to the idea of getting naked,
you certainly are going to look different than you looked
(30:32):
when you were dating before you married your your spouse.
Some of us have C section scars like some of us,
how do you how do you kind of overcome that?
Besides and again no judgment, but you know, smoking little pod,
eating a gummy, having a bottle or seven of wine?
Besides that, what are the things that you tell your
clients to be saying in their head to themselves working
(30:53):
through to make it a more comfortable and pleasant experience?
Do you want the truth? Okay, so I want you
to want to Why do you la? Why? I mean
the trip is to honestly, I learned from I learned
from my mistakes, So I really tell my clients honestly
from my mistakes. Like I did it too soon. I
(31:15):
was like, you know, fuck it, I'm just gonna do
this and I'm gonna get it over with ye excuse
me exactly. I was just like, you know what, I
wasn't even grudge from me. It was just like I
haven't I was kind of like a sexless last Like,
you know, I had sex in a long time. So
I was like, I'm just gonna get out them, and
I just I didn't do it right. That is not
(31:35):
the best way to go. I was like, you know what,
I thought in my head I was okay, and my
head was was not okay, and my body was okay.
And then I was like, wait, a huge disconnect, I think,
and I really do feel this way. You need time.
Time is really really important to get your ship together,
and I think I didn't. I didn't give myself any
(31:58):
of that. I didn't know who I was a single person.
My head didn't know who I was as a single person.
I didn't know who I was right, um, and I
thought it would be okay and I was not. What
about for guys, do you think it's the same thing
that they also should take time or because I know
it's sometimes easier for men to separate the sort of
emotional and the physical component of sex than it might
(32:21):
be for some women, what do you recommend fun that's funny?
I thought I was like a guy. I thought to myself.
I said that to myself actually, like you know, I'm
like a guy. I'll be fine. I'll still I'll go
out there, I'll do it. I'll be You know what's
funny about that. I think everyone needs about a year.
And I say that because I think a year to
date seriously, I mean, I would look, if you want
to have sex, squab sex, I I did. I had sex.
I couldn't wait. I'm sorry, But like then, after I
(32:42):
had sex, I thought, like the first guy out of
the gate, I thought, oh I was this was it
for me? I was in love with him. It was
the worst relationship, even worse than I totally agree you
can't jump into a new relationship, but and don't you
think that it might make sense again, not to just
you know, funk everything inside, but to be able to
kind of get your sea legs back a little bit,
because then if not, when you meet the right person,
(33:03):
it maybe too much or maybe it's perfect. I don't know,
And for everybody it's going to be different, but I
think you should definitely. I think if you want to
be very clear that the All Fair Podcast is not
recommending that you wait a year to have sex. No, No,
I thought you mean, like a real complation, I would
say have sex immediately, all fair, just go out there
and do it. Definitely have don't wait. Every here for
(33:24):
good thinks, who oh, I can't wait that one. No,
you have to have sex. But I think if you
think that that sex is is going to be your
real relationship, and it probably isn't going to be a
real relationship even if you did wait a year, because
because you need to get back out there and you,
like Jennifer said, figure out who you are. Yes, I
think we spend so much of the end of our
(33:45):
relationships thinking about who the other person is and who
we're leaving, and all of those things. The denial and
the anger and the resentment is all really really focused
on somebody else. Then you're out and you are left
with only one person, and sometimes you're still dealing with
the other person because you're figuring out support and customer,
so you can still have those feelings about that person.
(34:06):
But try to turn a little bit inwards, guys, and
think about you and who you are and what you
may have done to precipitate the end of the relationship,
what you can do to make it better with this person.
If you're going to co parent with them and then
what you need moving forward. Yes, you know, when you're
pointing the finger outward, there are three pointing back at yourself.
See that again, Johnny, say that again. When you're pointing
(34:28):
your pointing the finger at someone, there are three pointing
back at yourself. You know, because Laura you said that
it was really important to me. Is that you have
to hold yourself accountable for the things you did in
your last relationship so that you can move forward. You
have to take some ownership of what you did, and
I don't think a lot of people can do that. Yeah,
and also kind of figure out who you are. If
you've been married for a long time like that, you
lose yourself a little we all, do, you know. I
(34:51):
think that's important. For more tips from Jennifer about dating,
after divorce, during and after COVID nineteen, visit it's over
easy dot com. Scroll down to the article is that
Matter to jump to the Insights blog and search Jennifer
hervit's H two r V I t Z because it's
there's some great stuff on there. So, Jennifer, we've gotten
to the point of the podcast where we asked the interrogatories.
(35:12):
Are you ready, I'm ready. Do you swear to tell
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Jennifer,
I only tell the truth. Okay, I'm gonna hold the bullshit. Guys,
I'm gonna hold the bullshit. Which relationship in your life
has had the most profound impact? You try to say
without crying. My son, Jonah. Um, he taught me how
to be a mom. He taught me how to be
(35:33):
a mom. See the oldest, he's my oldest, and he's
on the spectrum and so I, um, would you wouldn't
even know anymore because he's falling right off of it.
But I tell people that, um, children change your lifestyle,
but that Jonah changed my life. So yeah, I love that.
I just got the chills. I think that's so true.
And again, having a first child who is on the
spectrum and really deal and again enough that you actually
(35:55):
could see a change for him to come off, he
wouldn't even know, he wouldn't even Thank you a lot
we did, I say, team Jonah. We did a lot
of work. My whole family saw. I'm really proud of him. Good.
All right, what is your favorite love song? Okay, so
like this is embarrassing for for myself. But I can't.
I can't lie. I'm a Bieber fan, like crazy Justin
Bieber fan. I'm like I would stalk him. I'm crazy
(36:16):
stalk him. I love one less lonely girl. I want
to beat up, want to. I just would like to
say that I'm in very good company with Justin Bieber
and me being stock by Jennifer Herbitt's that's right. You know,
I'm almost the same person that. I mean, you are
the same you could be if you were Haley Bieber,
the three of us. I just I can't even take
it and love him and I also love that guy
got fans so million reas. Whatever have you been reading?
(36:37):
I guess there was an article that came out that
she did in an interview that Hayley did about when
they broke up. It's all over the internet right now.
I just searched just so and I didn't even read
the article because I am admittedly not the biggest fan.
I'm not an AUNTI but I just but she. I
just saw a bunch of headlines as I was flipping
through because I do all the time, which was Hailey
talks about her past up because I'm sure the internet
(37:01):
would have broken if they broke up past breakup with
with Justin and and how that felt. It might be
interesting to read given what we do. Yeah, I can't
like getting nervous even thinking about their breaking up? Whatever?
To who would I say? They're solid? What is the
one piece of advice that you would share with your
twenty something year old self? How old were you and
you married Mark? I was twenty eight and I still
(37:23):
think it was too soon. That's my ted talk in October.
So I actually, um, I would say slow down. I
would say slow down, jenn slow it down? Got it?
Which romantic comedy could you watch on repeat? Jennifer? I
mean Jerry McGuire had sty You had me at Jerry McGuire.
All right, Jennifer, Thank you for zooming into all spare today.
(37:44):
Tell people where they can find your blog, your podcast
and you online. It's easy. Jennifer Herbert's dot com and
Jennifer Herbert's is everywhere else. Thank you Loura for having me, Johnny,
thank you loved having you. Check out her books, guys,
They're amazing. She's lovely. Um. Hopefully we can put an
end to not only COVID nineteen. But the tornadoes on
the Locus and the killer bees and the earthquakes, and
(38:05):
have you out to l a yes, and and see
you soon. Bye bye, you guys, thank you, and thank
you for listening to All's Fair. We'll be back next week.
Stay safe. Bye h
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