Marlo Thomas & Phil Donahue Share What Makes a Marriage Last

"That Girl” Marlo Thomas and her husband, talkshow host Phil Donahue join Laura and Johnnie for a star-studded conversation about the secrets to a long lasting marriage. Marlo and Phil have almost 30 Emmy-awards between the two of them, but their new book "How to Make a Marriage Last” is the first and only project (aside from their 40 year marriage) that they’ve worked on together. They share details about many of the celebrity and luminary couples they interviewed for their book including Sting and Trudie Styler, George Stephanopoulos and Ali Wentworth, Melissa McCarthy and Ben Falcone, and many others. Marlo also surprises us with her observations on where lust ranks in a long marriage. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi there. It's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce service.
I've been practicing family law for over twenty years and
I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.

(00:22):
Along the way, I often have to remind people to
lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Rules simply don't apply. Because all's fair in love and war.
So welcome to the All's Fair Podcasts. Fasten your seatbelts
and let's go. Hello everyone. My name is Laura Wasser.
I'm Johnny Rains, and this is the It's Over Easy

(00:45):
podcast All's Fair. When I first came up with the
idea for It's Over Easy, it was in response to
so many people asking me for help. I guess they
don't know any other family law attorneys, and so there
was always a friend or a friend's sister, or a
friends nanny or somebody that was saying, can you help
me out with this? And I thought this would be

(01:05):
a good place to go for them to be able
to get that assistance. And then like the Goddess of wisdom,
springing forth from the mind of Zeus, It's over Easy,
spraying forth from Laura's brain, And today ioe has become
an online universe dedicated to relationships, breakups, makeups, and next chapters.
And we also have an amazing amount of informative and

(01:25):
entertaining content about divorce, custody, support, and family law overall.
So if you are someone you know is considering an
evolution of the way their family operates, check out it's
over easy dot com. It's it's free, totally free until
you're ready to file, and right now, our full service
divorce is only fifty dollars plus filing fees. I think
during COVID, when so many people are feeling economically and

(01:49):
secure and emotionally uncertain, that should help a lot. And
as I was saying, the opportunity to help is why
I keep doing what I do, working with clients at
my firm, reading and watching the testimonials from people who
use It's over Easy, and even speaking to people here
on our podcast All's Fair about their relationships is absolutely
fascinating because all of it provides us with a constant

(02:09):
source of revelation and realization about the way people behave
when they fall in and out of love. Love sure
can make people do funny things like even dress up
and model in other people's laundry and become insta famous.
It was a New York Times article that I sent
Johnny about this Taiwanese octogenarian couple. But I hope I

(02:29):
do at butcher this chang Wanji and who so er.
He's eighty three, she's eighty four. And they own a
laundromat and people that leave their clothes there and don't
pick them up. These guys put on and they take
pictures of themselves, and I love it. It's pretty impressive.
I mean, since this article came out, they started out

(02:50):
with a hundred and thirty six thousand followers on their
Instagram um, and they only have like nineteen posts. Now
they're up to five and sixteen thousand, So I guess
a lot of people have been reading the New York Times.
Let's stick with the theme of long lasting love set
by these fashionable octogenarians from Taiwan, shall we great idea?
I mean, half of all marriages actually last right and

(03:11):
they don't end in divorce. But what is the secret
stay tuned? What makes a marriage last, sometimes even against
all odds. And if there's a secret to happy life
and wedded bliss, what is it. I don't know that
human beings were meant to mate for life or beat monogamous,
but I remain a hopeful romantic. I believe in coupling.
I believe in commitment, and I believe in co parenting,

(03:33):
raising children together, having a family, and even growing old
with someone. I just don't believe you need to be
married to do that. But I do love a good wedding.
But if there's anyone in the world who might be
able to convince me that marriage is a viable option,
it would be our guest today, Welcome to All's Fair,
Marlowe Thomas and Phil Donahue. I would just like to say,

(03:55):
I mean, and I've represented and worked with a lot
of famous people, but marlow Thomas, you are the voice
in the back of my head when I know that
it's all right to cry, when I know that my
son Jack might want a doll like William did Um,
and particularly in the great Story of the Princess that

(04:20):
you did with alan Alda Atlanta, and how fantastic and
free to be you and me. I mean, I'm just
I'm in that sweet spot, as is Johnny. We went
to high school together of people that that was just
a definitive part of our growing up. And my mom
was such a huge fan and she passed away last year.
Yesterday was the one year anniversary of her death. And

(04:41):
I'm wearing my Bunny necklace because her name was Bunny.
But she was just she was she was that girl
and she you would put me in front of the
TV to watch that girl and we would watch Phil,
Donna Hugh and then we would listen to Free to
Be You and Me. So again, I know, I'm like
kind of rambling, but there's not a lot of people
who get me and girling and excited. You guys are

(05:03):
amazing and when and and and we'll talk about it
later in the show, but Free to Be You and Me? Man,
does it ever hold up? Huh? I mean, it's crazy
how topical all of those sketches are. And anyways, thank
you both for being And I've told some other people
that that Phil You're going to be on the show
and they're like, oh my god. I was a latchkey kid.
I came home after school, I'd watch Phil Donnic you.

(05:25):
He was like the voice one of my girlfriends said,
I didn't really have a dad around. He was the
voice of like adult nous and moral compass and what
you're supposed to do and what's right. So you guys
are really wonderful. I am so glad that in seven
you found each other. And we'll talk about that a bit.
And now, given that Johnny and I have been doing

(05:46):
this show for a couple of years and talking about
relationships and what makes them work and why divorce isn't
the worst thing in the world. But if you can
make it work, and if you can stay on the
bus is Jamie Lee Curtis said, then you should um
because the scenery does change. And reading over the past
couple of weeks the book and the interviews with these
fantastic couples has been amazing. So we are so pleased

(06:08):
that you are here. That's nice. And again, I'm sure
you get that a lot. I'm sorry, I just had
to kind of go off a little bit. But for
any of our listeners who don't know, because we do
have some millennials, let's tell our listeners a little bit
about Marlow and Phil. Marlow is an award winning actress, author,
and activist whose body of work has earned her four

(06:29):
Emmy Awards, the George Foster Peabody Award, a Golden Globe,
a Grammy, and an induction into the Broadcasting Hall of Fame.
She is the author of seven best selling books, including
My Favorite, Free to Be You and Me, a project
that became a platinum album, Emmy Award winning television special
and a stage show, and Free to Be a Family,
which also won an Emmy. And in two thousand and fourteen,

(06:50):
she published It Ain't Over Till It's Over, Reinventing your
life and realizing your dreams any time, at any age,
which chronicles the inspiring stories of women who reinvented their
lives and careers. That's something we talked about a lot
on this show. Also in that year, President Barack Obama
awarded Marlow the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest honor
of civilian can receive. And as most of us know,

(07:12):
you are the national outreach director for St. Jude's Children's
Research Hospital, So thank you for that too. Thank you
about phil a ka his excellence. He did tell me
before the show, so he's liken. Hear ft ms and
I'm gonna keep doing that. He as a writer, a producer,
a journalist, and a media pioneer who revolutionized the talk
show format. The Donohue Show was honored with twenty count

(07:34):
um twenty Daytime Ends, ten for the show and ten
for Outstanding Host and in Phil was awarded a Lifetime
Achievement Award for his contributions to television journalism. He's been
inducted into the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences Hall
of Fame and is also a recipient of the George
Foster Peabody Award. What a well matched couple you guys
are to Emmys? Can you imagine? No, I can't even imagine.

(08:01):
I wanted to put him outside the elevator door, you know,
so people would have to And who let those those
old things? Where where are they all? Where do you
keep them in a room in the apartment? Or where
do where is all of the wards? They're up in
my den and I have a knee wall which he

(08:22):
has his study and I have mine in my study.
There you go for his or twenty well again, for
for the average human being is going to accomplishment only
when you have to compare yourself to fill also I
was talking to somebody the other day of marlow and
they told me that before Phil, you dated Henry Kissinger

(08:43):
and David Geffen. Is this correct? Well, I went out
to dinner with him. Let's say that. Okay, alright, alright,
wasn't intimate with David Geffen? That makes you feel a
little bit better? Okay. It's actually a very very good
friend of mine, So any dinners with him. He's a pal, yes,
the ass and he's lovely, lovely, Yeah, he's adorable. All right.

(09:05):
So let's talk about you guys meeting. You talk about
it a little bit in the book. Each of you
talks about it. So you're already quite accomplished. And you
go on the Phil Donahue show for an interview, and
there's an electricity that you know, most of us hope
to experience at least once in our lives. Would you
kindly welcome Marlowe Thomas, Phil and Marlowe's love affair began

(09:29):
in nineteen seventy seven. You are really fascinating, but you
are wonderful with the TV audience. You are loving and generous,
and you like women and their worst sports. Whether the
woman in your life is very lucky, It really wasn't
an interview. I was really terrified of marriage. It's just
like and he said to me, how can you've never married?

(09:49):
I said, Oh, I just don't believe it's for me.
It seems like it's only a place for one and
a half persons, you know, the person that has the
dream and the other person who supports the dream. Where'd
you get that idea? Well, my parents, for one. Her
mother had given up a singing career to marry the
star of TV's Danny Thomas Show. What do you think

(10:10):
I am an idiot? Don't you answer that? But within weeks,
Marlo Thomas was a regular guest in the home of
a single dad raising four boys in Winnetka, Illinois. I
think being single and independent was almost your brand. No,
I was never getting married like the character she played

(10:33):
in the hit TV series That Girl. That Girl, Marlowe
Thomas was pursuing a career, not a husband. I was
friendly with a couple who lived here before. Are you
a couple? Now? I'm a single. I was trying to portray,
for the first time on television, a young girl who
wasn't thinking about getting married. She was thinking about who

(10:54):
she could be in the world a revolutionary idea in
N six. Had you met before that show? We had
met when you were in Dayton. But it's interesting talk
about timing. He was married at that time. I was
going with somebody else, and I flew in, did the

(11:15):
show for Free to be You and Me actually, and
flew out. That was it. And then four years later
he was divorced, living alone with his four boys. I
was no longer with anyone, and we met and this
thing happened. It was just unbelievable. It was like I
don't even remember him from the first time, but the

(11:35):
second time it was really a chemical reaction. Did you
feel that as well? Well, yes, I mean I don't
know if you're Catholic, but when I saw Marlow, she
was an impure thought. You know, you don't have to
be Catholic to have this. I've got some very impure,
judaical thoughts happening. You know, he was an impure thought

(11:58):
to trust me. And it's really funny when you guys
started talking at this. You know, I've been reading the
book What Makes a Marriage Last and the section on
Rob Reiner and his wife and how they talk about
it all happening right around the time he was doing
when Harry met Sally and the little vignettes and when
Harry met Sally. I can't help but feel that often

(12:19):
on the show. But certainly talking to you guys that
the couple explaining how they each perceived their meeting their relationship.
You must have done that all over the country while
you were doing these interviews. Yeah. Absolutely. What was fun
is that since we decided from the beginning that we
would meet him in person, it was kind of like
a double day, right, Yeah, it was. You know, I

(12:41):
had said before we began, I said, I'm not talking
about our marriage, and Marlo said, okay, you know, being
married forty years, I know how to handle him. I said, fine,
whatever you say, honey, Okay. Yes, So we got started.
We thought this would be maybe twenty minutes maybe, and

(13:01):
when I would mention our own marriage, something you know,
kind of personal about it, that just seemed to blow
the barn door open, and they just, I mean, they
came in with all kinds of commentary about their own
and it was often personal and I thought, in some

(13:22):
cases very brave. Yeah, you can tell. But what about
Ted Dancing. Ted Dancing is on his third marriage to
Mary Steen Virgin and their divine couple. I mean, he
really are. They're perfectly made it and never been married
like thirty years, and this is his third marriage. And
so I said to him, Wow, how did you have

(13:43):
the optimism to do this three times? And why did
you think this one would be any different? He said,
well I stopped lying. I thought that was so amazing
for somebody to say that. And I said, well, what
did you lie about? He said everything. And you know,
it's not only about the fact that I fooled around,

(14:04):
he said, but I lied about who I was because
I wanted to be better person than I thought I was,
so I you know, I wanted to be this guy
on the white Horse, so I tried to keep that
image up, and of course I hit all my vulnerabilities.
And when I met Mary, when I would do this
little dance that I was used to doing, I could
tell she just looked at me like what you what

(14:25):
are you doing? You know? He said, it didn't work
with her, And then I finally became myself with someone
I just thought that was so vulnerable of him and
so honest. And it's kind of like what Rob Reiner said,
you have to work your own side of the street,
each of you. So when you come together, you come

(14:45):
as better people, because if you're expecting the other person
to fix you, but that's not going to happen. Totally true.
What do you think about I mean the fact that
right now, and you say this in the ford, I
think this is Marlowe part of the forward. Yes, it
is that we're living in a very negative time. Again,
the book came out in May of this year, so

(15:06):
we were already most of the country in lockdown. And
you say, a time when we're lashing out more than
we're reaching out, A time in which we too often
forget that we're at our best, our strongest, when we're
holding the hand and have the back of someone we
care about. And again, I'm a divorce lawyer. Okay, I'm
the daughter of a divorce lawyer. I grew up in divorce.
And actually, it's funny when you mentioned the ted dancing thing,

(15:27):
because one of my father's favorite quotes is second, or
in that case third, marriages are the triumph of hope
over experience, which is and stopping lying, I guess. But
so to have this book coming out now and again
when we are seeing so many people that are really
plagued with uncertainty. We're kind of all on our last nerve.

(15:48):
Those of us who have young kids are dealing with
them being in the house. Everybody said, Oh, there's going
to be such a surgeon divorces in this country. People
are just gonna be so sick of each other. And
I said, I don't think so. I think this is
going to be an opportunity for people, as you say, Marlo,
to like hold each other's hands, have each other's backs,
maybe for the first time in their relationship, really see

(16:09):
something through, have a discussion, and not be able to
rush off to work or rush off to book club
or poker night or whatever. You have to stay there.
And so maybe this is an opportunity for some of
these relationships to stick it out. I thought it was
really interesting in the I guess it was the Jamie
Lee Curtis and Christopher Guest. What they said that kind

(16:32):
of was the secret to marriage was how much hate
you can take of the other person, so to speak.
Did you find that to be something that's topical, especially now,
that idea of like how much can you really put
up with? Well, you know, we were shocked what you said.
The word hate. I must say, you know, you should
tell them what that. Reverend Billy Graham said on your show,

(16:54):
Billy Graham once have you thought about divorce? And he
he just said, divorce never murder yet. And I think
everybody feels that, you know, like I guess Callum, but hate.
I was shocked at that word when she said that.

(17:15):
You know, her therapist said, you have to depends on
how much hate you can tolerate. But they have a
really good marriage, so obviously they've worked through that. The
biggest thing for them is that Chris Guest didn't realize
that he was married to a drug addict, and she
finally came out with the fact that she was addicted
to drugs and Phil asked him, well, did you think

(17:37):
that you know, you get out of here, and he
said no, no. And that was the thing that you said,
was the common theme of all those couples that their desire. Yeah,
you could you could see that the couples who left
the marriages that lasted involved people who really wanted the marriage.

(17:57):
It was very interesting. You could. You could see it
very sincerely. They wanted it. And you know, the more
I think about it, that really is pretty much a
necessary ingredient. Well, and they fought for it. They went
to marriage counseling, you know, many of them. And that's
a real act of love. If you're volunteering for a

(18:19):
marriage counselor that means you care about the union your
partner and the future and and to and to work
on it, you know, you really do. People get married
and say, Okay, well that's done. I'm married, so now
i'll get my work done. I'll do this, I'll do that,
have a family, and all these things happened, but the
marriage isn't being tended. These people they tended the marriage

(18:42):
all the time. So when their children grew up and left,
they weren't left with somebody they didn't know. They knew
who each other is. And they're happy to be together.
They're having a good time. They're happy to be on
their own. It's a completely different thing. And empty nest,
I think is a lot about the fact that the
couple doesn't have anything going anymore. Right, right, all of

(19:06):
the similarities, all of the points of conversation have left
the nest, so to speak. Now, Phil, you had five
kids by the time you guys got married. Did those
kids live in the house with you guys? Did you
raise those kids together? I had four sons and then
a daughter. The daughter remained with her mother, and I

(19:28):
was I had custody of the four boys. And that's
what Marlowe walked into. And we're not to Illinois. I
had custody of five boys. I know that feeling. Yeah,
that was that was a great awakening here here. I
was a woman who never wanted to get married to

(19:49):
have children. And when I told my mother I'm in
love with this man who has five children, and she said, oh,
to choke on you. And it truly was that joke
on me. I mean, it couldn't have been funnier that
I would I would end up doing such a audacious thing.
But it turned out fine. I mean the boys were
great to me. Happily they had had free to be

(20:12):
you and me as they were kids, so they knew
of me, you know, and uh so that that eased
the way. And also their parents have been divorced for
about four years, so I was not coming in and
changing anything. And I think they were kind of happy
to have a woman around. Yeah, they would. Was it
Michael that said we like it when you're here because

(20:36):
Dad doesn't have so many spazes when you're here. That's learned.
I learned that spaz with two zies was the definition
of the old man. Yeah, I get it. So and
how old were the kids when you guys got married?
I guess they were eleven up right. Julie was eleven

(20:59):
six sixteen was the oldest. Michael was either fifteen or
six six because they could drive. Yeah, Liken, Yeah, I
have a I have a fifteen year old boy and
a ten year old boy. So now I'm thinking multiply
that by a couple more boys. It just must have
been you must have been buying food constantly, and it
must have smelled very bad all the time in the house,

(21:20):
I thought. I can imagine. The biggest thing for me
was pizza under the bed. That empty pizza, yeah, under
the bed. That I just and also just ever finding
a towel for myself was another big thing. I bought
my own separate set that nobody's there, just the pristine
mom towels set. I got everybody their own color. Yeah.

(21:42):
I try to organize it, but you know it doesn't work.
You can't organize four teenage boys, is that other question?
But we at least had our towels that that was good.
But I think that you know, it's like everything that
makes a good marriage, it's accommodating what the other person
brings to the marriage. And I love what Judith Viewer said.

(22:03):
She said, I was just gonna yes, please that she's
so awesome. Yes, she said, no matter how long you're married,
and no matter how hard you try, he's never gonna
be you, and you're never gonna be him. So just
let it go and accommodate the differences. And we are
very different personalities. I'm a very impulsive person. If there's

(22:25):
a problem, I go right to the phone to find
a solution. And Phil is let's just think about this
a minute, you know, let's let's let's lay back. And
it always would aggravate me that he would lay back,
and it aggravated him that I was impulsive. And what's interesting,
as we worked on this book, since we were together
every day, working together, which we had never done before,

(22:47):
we both saw that there's a lot to be said
for laying back, and there's a lot to be said
for being impulsive. So it helped us learn to appreciate
this difference rather than say, well, why don't you this,
and why don't you that we would each kind of say,
you know that that might work here? So yeah, I

(23:08):
think that would you say? Or what? I agree? I
think I'd better agree or no, I agree, I do.
I I think if you can get past the little stuff,
it really first of all, it's safe, a lot of
energy and it makes it what you do is you

(23:28):
avoid a war. And I learned early on that that
was important to do. A war drained you really and
it makes it difficult to even it wasn't a war.
I mean, well, let's see a skirmish. Well, he's Irish
and Irish people, you know, the fighting Irish. I mean,

(23:50):
I'm not so laid back. I'm Italian. In Leveanese, we
have our own ability to have a temper, but we
learned to let it. Tell them what James Carville said, Yeah,
I was gonna. I mean, they seem like the most
opposite of the people that you interviewed. They just are
so different, yet they really did seem to get each other.

(24:10):
Tell me what he said. I'm interrupted, I'm sorry. Carvel said,
when you find yourself going round and round, you have
a good mimic of this. Yeah, going on about an
unimportant you know, Mickey mouse issue lass all day. You know,
you better off if you just say, oh, let's just

(24:33):
kick this can down the road. And he said, a
successful marriage has a whole alley full of cans. And
when we got off the road one day, we were
having an argument and Phil said, oh, let's kick this
can down the road, and we both started laughing. And
it's become like a code, you know, sometimes we just say,

(24:54):
can already this stupid argument because it's always about, you know,
all those things that go around. You said you didn't know,
you did, Yes, you did, you said you well, you
said you were going to take it. Those on and on,
and it's meaningless, and you have a lot of those
when you first get married. And I think you know,
our first couple of years we argued a lot because

(25:15):
we're both type A personalities, we both ran our own shows,
we're both used to being the boss, and you could
feel that. I didn't realize it till later we talked
about it, that we were sort of positioning ourselves, you know,
like I'm thinking I'm not gonna let him boss me around,
and he's thinking I'm not letting her boss me around.
So we're positioning, you know, as as like how you

(25:37):
train a dog, you know you're trying a kid. You
also got to figure that out when you live with somebody,
how do you be accommodating without being dominating? And that's
a very interesting um distinction, absolutely, and I feel like
so it's interesting because James Carmel said you kicked the
can down the road. So many of the interviews said
things that amounted to, don't ever go to bed, Matt.

(26:00):
Don't do that, so to speak, maybe let it go
a little it, but don't go to bed Matt. I
think Judith and Milton Dorus was one of my favorites
because they have a double double bed, so if you
have to get into bed together every night, and she
kept saying, your tushes are gonna be touching, and at
some point you're gonna have to make up, either on
purpose or not. So many people spoke about really needing

(26:20):
to tell the truth, like you said with Ted Danson.
Rob Brianer said that it's really important to be honest
at some point to get to the honesty in the relationship.
I mean, were their themes. I saw themes even in
just my reading of it recently, But you sat with
these people. Were there things that afterwards, when you guys
were on the plane or in the car, that you said,
isn't it interesting that everyone, no matter how different they

(26:42):
are from each other and from the other couples, they
all have X or y in common. Well, I think
the biggest one is what Phil said, is that they
all had the desire. They It wasn't one person pulling
the other. They each had the desire to make this
ridge work. At least one of the partners has to

(27:04):
want the union to last. And it's not always evident
because you know, it takes two people to fight or
not get along. But that's why this kicked the can
down the road was so struck us. As however, corny,
it was a valuable thing that car Bill shared with us.

(27:29):
It gets you off the the round and round of
meaningless issues. But they all many many of them went
to marriage counseling. Uh. And the fact that they cared
enough to say, let's let's fix this, not let's run
away from it. And uh, you're a divorce lawyer, right

(27:50):
or yes? So you know that people who I got
the impression after we've talked to all these people, maybe
people who don't make it. Maybe marriages that split up,
especially when they're under like ten years, that they get
an external challenge and they don't know how to confront it,

(28:11):
they don't know how to fix it. They get scared
and they looked for the escape route, the exit sign.
These couples, the reason their marriage is all lasted is
they went through the fire together and very whatever it was,
whether it was infidelity with Jesse Jackson and his wife,
or losing all your savings like Kira and Kevin Bacon,

(28:37):
or wellness like the Romanos and Michael J. Fox. Three
years their marriage, uh, he and Tracy found out that
he had Parkinson's, which is a lifelong disease. All of
these two people had very big challenges because life is
full of challenges, but they they stayed with it. They
walked through the fire together. And when you go through

(28:59):
the fire together like that, you come on the other
side and you've got something. You've really got something. And
that's what I thought, to me was the most exciting
and romantic part of it. Because sex is great, lust
is great, and chemical reaction. It's all fabulous. But in
the end, what's going to make the marriage last is

(29:21):
how you're a team, how you face it together, and
that that really made me happy to see what they did,
you know, because we decided right away this isn't a
how to book, this is a what book. It's it's
what did this couple do when this thing happened? And
that's what's pretty exciting. And there's no no challenge that

(29:44):
any couple could face that wasn't that somehow wasn't in
this book. And we didn't know that. We didn't pick
people for their challenges. We it just turned out that
there was rug addiction and alcoholism and infidelity and disease
and lost of money. I mean, it was very, very interesting,
and you certainly did get a wide arrange. I mean

(30:06):
I was gonna say, did you notice that there were differences?
You did four same sex couples, You did different races,
you did different nationalities. Everybody brings obviously, and religions, like
when the Carters said that they would read the Bible
together the same passage even if they weren't in the
same place. So interesting to me that you had so

(30:27):
many and most of your people were long long term marriages,
but you did take a few that have been married
for a lesser period of time because you wanted to
get that kind of sampling of society. I mean, it
really is so interesting how so many of these people,
no matter how different they may look or be on paper,
all had common similar experiences when they did what I

(30:50):
will coin your phrase, make it through the fire together
exactly exactly. And a lot of people said, well, what
was the difference between the same sex marriage and the
up the sex marriages? We said, there was no difference.
The same thing. You want to feel safe. You want
to know that your partner has your back, that your
dreams mean as much to your dreams meaning as much

(31:13):
to your partner as their dreams do. I mean, one
of the things that I think I fell in love
with Phil about, other than the fact that I was
very attracted to him, is that I knew I could
trust him with my head. That when I asked him
for advice early on, that was tricky advice because it

(31:34):
was going to really inconvenience him. And he gave me
the advice that was good for me, even though with
inconvenience him. That's when you know that person, uh, you
can trust them with your head. Because I I know
women who have actually left their husbands because they realized
that the husband was talking them out of taking certain

(31:55):
opportunities because it would be an inconvenience for them. Maybe
the wife would have to travel to d C three
days a week or whatever it was, and so he would.
They got them, They got their wives not to do
it on the guys of something else, when in fact
it was really about they didn't want to be alone
three days a week. That's not fair. That really isn't fair.

(32:17):
And I can't imagine based on what I had read
about you and you feeling like I don't really want
to get married. I don't need to get married. You
had seen your parents marriage didn't make much sense. So
Phil a ka, his excellence must really have been besides
the chemistry. I mean, she came to the table with
not only her own personal familial experience with marriage, but

(32:40):
also with I don't need to get married. I got
it all going on here. I got I was that girl.
I was free to be you and me. This is
not something I need. That really is something, And so
that I would imagine Phil was a challenge, but a
but an exciting challenge. Well, yeah, a lot of Marlow

(33:00):
is a challenge. Um. He says that would love though. Yes, yes,
uh he's still here. Yeah. Well, I mean Marlow grew
up in Beverly Hills, and she will tell you she
was able to put your button in the bedroom and
get pancakes. Not exactly, but you said that. Well, I said,

(33:23):
would you make me pancakes? And then I went down
to get them. We did have some very good Beverly
Hills intercom systems. I know what you mean. I've lived
in some of those houses. Yeah, I was a kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We grew up very differently, but you know, we were
both raised by the nuns, so we have our value
system is very much alike. I don't think you have

(33:45):
to be the same religion to have a good marriage,
but you sure have to have the same values. You
have a good marriage have to define certain words the same,
like fair and unfair, acceptable and unacceptable. If you aren't
know what that means. If I said to him that's
unacceptable and he would say, well, what's unacceptable about it,

(34:06):
you know you're not with the right person. I mean,
you gotta have those words down. And I think we
figured that out. You know, I really thought when I
started going out with Phil, I said, I feel like
I've known this guy forever. You know, there was something
about him that was very familiar to me, even though

(34:26):
you know, I didn't know him. He didn't run around
with my crowd. I was in Beverly Hills, he was
in Chicago. But I felt that I knew him. I
knew him better than the people that I knew in California.
It was just something that was basically like me. You know, Phil,
did you have that EXPERI I mean, you had been
married before, and you had had children with somebody, so

(34:47):
there was this You already had a familiar relationship. So
what was it for you that really was like Wow, this,
I'm doing this again. I'm jumping into this now. The hotness.
I was impressed with the common features that we both
brought to the marriage, certainly our upbringing, certainly the Catholic

(35:11):
experience we shared. So you know, she true the nuns
for her and for me, Um had the same memories.
And look at her looking at me, what are you
gonna say? Now? You're making me nervous. I'm smiling. I
mean good, all right, good? So you know, I guess

(35:35):
my my first impression. Uh. First of all, the cloud
of lust lasted a long time, still does and that
certainly helped a lot. And uh, I think I think,
you know, Marlowe really took this union seriously. She is,

(36:00):
how old were you when you got married? Forty two?
And I was, what forty four? So you know, nobody
accuses of rushing into anything. And uh, you know. And
and she didn't resent the four sons I was living with.
She welcomed them, became part of their world. Was not judgmental.

(36:26):
That's a tough thing, you know, to walk into a
house like that with empty pizza boxes under all the beds,
you know. And I was impressed with the fact that
she she accepted this, you know, without a whole lot
of experience, I mean none her mother I had two dogs.

(36:49):
Her mother was right, what a joke on you? And
we are That's an interesting thing. You know. People have
asked us for years what makes your marriage work? And
we always said, we don't know. You know, we like
each other, we have fun together, We trust each other,
we have lust with each other, We make each other laugh.

(37:12):
And trust is a big one. Not just trust that
you won't fool around, but trust that you're there, you know,
like a like a parent is you know, for your children,
you'll do anything to make them happy, to get them
what they need to be happy, to help them make
their dreams come true. But we don't really do that

(37:32):
all the time for our spouses. And we do that
for each other, you know, we're we're almost a parent partner.
We want the other one to have what they want.
Not everybody does that, And that's not what I saw
growing up. The model of marriage that I saw well,
and there were many of them because my father was
one of ten and my mother was one of five.

(37:54):
I saw all these very traditional marriages, Lebanese and Italian
marriages where the pretty much the man had the dream
and the woman, you know, cleaned up after it. And
I just was like, oh, man, that is that is
never gonna be what I'm gonna have. So I just
decided very early that I was never gonna get married.

(38:14):
I mean it was I think by the time I
was like eleven, I had solved that problem until I
met the irishman here, I love it. Let's talk for
a moment about what you call the cloud of lust
or sex. How important did you find that to be
in your interviews with others. I mean, obviously there's sex
outside of the marriage and people who are able to
overcome that. But you know, obviously sex at year thirty

(38:38):
five is not going to be the same as sex
was in month four. How do couples deal with the
fact that you may not get the same butterflies all
the time, that we change, our bodies change. Talk a
little bit about that if you can, well. I I
thought Ali Wentworth was first. I adore her. She's so funny,

(39:00):
in such a wild spirit. And she's married to George Stephanopoulos,
who is you know, absolutely opposite, all buttoned up, Mr Statesman,
Mr Rhodes scholar. You would never fix them up in
a million years. But you sit across from them and
you see it. If there's chemistry, there's adoration. I mean,
they're adorable together. But she said right off, if you

(39:21):
want a happy marriage, you have to have sex, and
a lot of it. And uh, Rob Reiner said, a
good marriage is having sex with your best friend, you know, so,
I mean sex is a big part of marriage, but
physicality is you know said sex doesn't take place at
a certain hour of the day, it's all day. It's

(39:43):
what did you say the other day about that that
patting somebody on the bottom. What was that? That's the
the lyrics from little things mean a Lot and touch
my hair as you pass my chair. Um, you know.
And I always thought that was a very profound lyric

(40:04):
and uh and it's true. You know, if if, if
you can sustain that kind of demonstration of your feelings
about your and and and the impulse the appreciation of
you know, you walk by your spouse and he looks cute,
you know, he put his hair down, He often, you know,

(40:24):
pats me on the butt. Well, that's just reminds us
of this thing that we have with each other that
we don't have with anybody else, which is a physical connection,
which you certainly wouldn't pat some other woman on the
butt though you did that, one would hope not. I
went up, I went up behind us Marlo, who was
looking out the other way, and gave her a little

(40:48):
you know, like like I do little and she turned around.
It wasn't Marlo, you know, I figured, here come the lawyers.
Well you you emerged unscathed. You're listening to the It's

(41:11):
Over Easy podcast All's Fair with Laura Wasser. I'm your host,
Laura Wasser, who many of you may know as a
divorce attorney in Hollywood. But don't get me wrong, I
do believe in love, and today is proof of that.
We're speaking with the loveliest of couples on the planet
who have coined a term we don't often hear at
my firm or at It's over Easy online divorce, the
term long married, which I presume all newly would despire

(41:35):
to be. Award winning actress, author and activist Marlo Thomas, who,
among so many things, has inspired a generation of free
to be you and me kids, including Johnny and Me,
to grow up to be whomever we wanted, is here
with her husband of forty years, Mr Phil Donahue, the writer, producer, journalist,
trailblazer who changed the way we all watch television. He

(41:55):
is the creator and host of the groundbreaking, multi Emmy
Award winning Phil Donna Hue Show, which was the first
talk show format that included audience participation and ran for
twenty nine years on national television. We're discussing their new book,
What Makes a Marriage Last? And after all the double
dates and the interviews you two did to write this book,
and all the time you to have spent together before
and after writing it, tell us what is the secret

(42:19):
what makes a marriage last. I think we've said it last,
helps wanting it to last, going forward, doing what needs
to be done to tend to it. You know, marriage
is a lot like democracy. You have to tend to
it to stay there. And I am one of the

(42:39):
things we saw with the Carters of the married seventy
three years. When they were six years old, they learned
how to ski. When there were sixty five, learned how
to speak Spanish, and now they read the Bible. They
always read the Bible to each other, but now they
have the Spanish Bible. They read the Bible together in Spanish.
But was so fun, though, Laura, is that we interviewed

(43:01):
them the first one. They were the very first couple,
and they talked about the Bible and their faith and
how important that is to them. And then we interviewed
Melissa McCarthy and Ben Falcone and she talked about how
when she's feeling blue, he moons her. You know, almost
the same sentiment, so you know, whatever it takes fellas,

(43:22):
you know, it's the Bible, if it's mooning, whatever it is, Uh,
there suited you know, that's they found the right people.
And there are another adorable couple. Melissa and Ben. They're
just they're fun and laughter is a huge part of
their lives. In fact, she said, well they have a
really big laugh. They stayed each other. Okay, that's three months.

(43:45):
I mean they've added three months to their lives. This
is a great idea. Great that is nice. Is our
book nearby? Yes? Yes, one of the early pages, like
two or three pages in the picture of the Curners.
I know, isn't that great? I had never seen him
looking that young before. Hold on a second. It was

(44:06):
twenty one and she was nineteen, and that white starts
navy uniform. Her mother said that she fell in love
with the uniform. Yes, well, I almost just fell in
love with the uniform. It's so amazing. And then I
also was struck by the Henderson's your bonus couple that
you did at the end. I loved them, I and
I loved that when that His nephew told you that.

(44:27):
When they was over one time and she pulled in
to the garage from the coming home, he jumped up
and said, she's home. I mean, I just I thought
they were so great. You just have to be kind
to each other. John told us, you have to respect
each other, and it goes on and on like that.
And then you added and maybe it's jumping up from
your chair when the other one comes home. I think
really liking each other, liking yourselves and then liking each

(44:50):
other is extremely helpful. And Trudy uh Styler, who's very
to sting, who is got to be one of the
sexiest men in the world. She's not bad either. She's
also very beautiful. But she says if he was on
the road a lot, when he comes home, she's so excited.
She just can't wait for him to come home. And
they've been married thirty some odd years. And he talked

(45:12):
about how when she walks in a room and it
just lights up, you know, that's that's it. You know,
how do you say, how do you get that? Or
what do you do to do that? That that's part
of the package. I love what Mary Mattlin said because
they're so different politically, completely different. But of course she

(45:34):
said he's my total package, which I thought was so romantic.
But say what she said about the fact that the
politics is one thing, and then she said, who's not
curious about how these two survived because they're so different
politically and she made the point that our politics is

(45:54):
only part of who we are, and there's so much
room for us to agree and admire about each other
separate from the politics. And I guess it makes it
easier for the argue for going to argue about politics.
They do love each other, Wow, they were. He was
another one that said, I just love it when she
walks into a room and kind of commands that room.

(46:16):
He said, that's the last part and she still does it.
And I love it when she wears colors. Yes, I
mean hearing somebody talk about their spouse like that after
all that time, it really gives me the chove. I know,
I know. And I love when she He admitted that
he was a flirt, and she said, oh, he's a
master flirt, but I'm his favorite flirt. Adorable, It's just adorable.

(46:40):
I just I really loved it about all of the couples.
They found somebody that excited them, you know, that they
that they wanted to be with. And we've received a
lot of mail since the book came out, and some
of the stories are sad, you know, people writing and saying,
you know, my husband doesn't really pay attention to me
or my husband doesn't include me, or he's not interested

(47:03):
in the things I'm interested in, and you think, well,
what a boy to live. We used to do a
show titled my husband Doesn't Kiss Me Anymore and the
phones would just explode. So that is an issue obviously,
and uh, you know, the little things that mean a

(47:24):
lot are what sustained a long term marriage, right. I
do want to speak a little bit about pre h
what makes a marriage. Laugh. In the forward, you speak
about getting a call from a friend that had been
married for a very long time and we spoke about
kind of getting through the fire. I am always interested,
and I've been being a divorce attorney for twenty five years.

(47:45):
I'm interested. You know, the seven year rich couples are
not a huge surprise, But when someone comes to me
after thirty thirty five. I've even had, you know, clients
come in after forty years of marriage. That is always
a bit of a surprise to me. And I wondered
to my self, have they just been miserable for this
whole time? This is past emptiness or did something happen

(48:06):
to change it? Because these people have really been I
mean a lot of them were married for a greater
part of their life than they weren't married to this person.
Any thoughts about that? The people that actually have made
it through the fire, who stayed on the bus, the
scenery changed and then at some point, like this couple
who shall remain nameless, but that experience, and I'm sure

(48:26):
we've all had more than one that after such a
being a long married and then deciding to split. There's
an old joke about that before s lawyer said to
the couple long married, what took you so long? And
the wife said, we wanted to wait until all the
children were said, well, that having the children be okay?

(48:54):
Because I had a friend, but we've been married about
fifteen years. His friend of mine, who'd been married twenty
three told me that they were getting a divorce and
I said, wow, you mean you're not safe after twenty
three years And he said, we were really done at fifteen,
but we wanted to get the kids through high school.
So that's a lot of that. I'm sure you must

(49:14):
know me you're a divorce or you must know that too, right.
I mean, we didn't we didn't interview people who were
getting divorced. We've interviewed people who had stuck it out.
But these I think stuck it out as a bad phrase.
These are people whose marriage was thriving and a lie,
and they took vacations together. Even Michael J. Fox, who's got,

(49:36):
you know, a lot of disability, he and his wife
went on a safari and she talked him into He said, well,
what'll I do? I won't be able to You'll be
in the chief and you'll see the animals. So she
encourages him and he uses her as a as a support,
as a cheerleader. It's wonderful to see that in a marriage.
And they don't give up. They're not resigned, you know,

(49:57):
they're they're continue to to live life and to want
to enjoy life. You know. I mean, if you put
two sour pusses together, maybe you'll end up with a
sour marriage. But I think the people that stay together
are people who work at it and enjoy it and
see that there's a prize at the end. Uh. Mariska
Hargert's husband, Peter Herman, who's a very bright guy. I

(50:20):
think he said, if you get married hoping that the
other person is going to make you happy, you're gonna fail.
What you're gonna do is end up going from person
to person looking for the one to make you happy.
You're never gonna make it that way. Happiness comes from
what you build together. That's where the happiness is. And
that is absolutely true. You can ride along on that

(50:42):
lust train for a great while, but while you're doing
that is a very good time to start building you know,
whether it's a family, whether it's a business, whether it's
just you too wanting to be together and build a
life together. That that's what you've got. And what happens
is that people get so involved in their work and

(51:05):
they're running off to their jobs and all, and they're
not doing anything about each other. They're not they're not
watering that plant at all. Right, it just dies. Absolutely Okay,
we have to discuss that girl. I mean, I watched
that girl. I think I even had an outfit that
was similar to your outfit in that girl, and I

(51:28):
wanted that outfit. I wanted that outfit. I wanted the hat,
and I wanted that air. The forerunner of The Mary
Tyler Moore Show, an early indication of the changing roles
of American women in feminist era America. There were one
hundred and thirty six episodes on ABC from nineteen sixties
six to nineteen seventy one. Let's take a look at
a clip of that girl. Pretty fine, that girl, she's

(52:08):
everything every girl should wine that girl. Okay, that she's
fine alone. But for you, fine girl to love, only

(52:34):
one girl to love, then she'll be that girl. That girl.
So It's Free to Be You and Me gives boys
permission to be themselves and continues to empower girls to
do the same. I'm happy to say that Marlowe, your
work is that girl, and with Free to Be You
and Me actually inspired me to become an attorney. And

(52:54):
one of the things, you know, attorneys do is interrogate.
And that's what's next. It's the all air interrogatory. So
do you both swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth. Yes. What's your favorite love song?
The mine is the Rose by Bedder. I like unforgettable. Oh,

(53:15):
I like un forgettable too. All right, what is the
one piece of advice that you'd share with your twenty
something your old self? Calm down, cool it, take it easy,
you know, don't look for bad news, just calm down
about everything. And I would definitely say that I was

(53:38):
always you know, checking to be sure that you know,
Phil wasn't gonna boss me around or whatever. Finding my position.
It's just such blowny and it takes a while to
just calm down. That's what I always telling myself. Your excellence. Well,
I certainly agree with that, and uh, you know, I

(53:59):
think if you get past the little stuff, the other
side is that's very liberating. Have we got time to
tell the marks? I don't think it is. I was
gonna talk about jealousy, but I see we won't have time. Yeah, well, yeah,
that's true. And I Marlot made a movie with Christmas Stofferson.

(54:23):
Oh yeah, that included a love scene. But I thought
lasted like four and a half years. But I somehow
survived that realized that that's part of her work, and
I had to get over it early on. And uh,
I mean, I feel much freer now that I'm on

(54:44):
the other side of that problem. And and no other
love scenes coming up anytime soon, Marlow with anyone except
I'm ready. Okay. Final question, which romantic comedy could you
watch on repeat? Uh? Well, Harry met Sally. I like
I want whatever she's having. That that was Rob's mom. Yeah,

(55:11):
and I also like an Anie Hall, Yeah, Phil, any
other ones? A movie guy? What's the film where they
meet on the top of the Empire State Building that
sleepless in Seattle? Yeah? You like Marlo and Phil. Thank

(55:32):
you so much for all that you're doing to shift
the conversation about race, gender equality, and marriage. Thank you
both for zooming in to share the secret to happy
life and tell us about your new book, What Makes
a Marriage Last. You can find What Makes a Marriage
Last now on Amazon and at marlow Thomas is her
Instagram and her Twitter, so all the free to be

(55:53):
you and me and that girl stuff is available there
as well. Please check it out if you want more
Marlo and Phil so there. It's not just about divorce,
you guys. There's a secret to make in a marriage
last and you heard it here today. Many secrets actually.
Thank you for listening today. Before you download the next episode,
please leave us a review at at Apple Podcast, Follow

(56:13):
us and it's over easy on social media, and to
find out when our next Facebook Live with Laura will be,
We'll be posting that on Facebook as well. Can't wait.
Take care everyone, See you next Tuesday.