Surviving Narcissists & Thriving

Is the world being overtaken by Narcissists? It may seem that way especially when bullies have the microphone, but times, they are a-changin'! Today, we're joined by renowned experts on Narcissists, psychologist Dr. Ramani Durvasula and attorney Rebecca Zung. They share their professional opinions and advice on navigating relationships and negotiations with self-consumed, high-conflict personalities, who might be trying to bring you down. Laura has a realization, which comes as no surprise to Johnnie, and Dr. Ramani introduces everyone to a new tribe of empathetic people who base their existence on the virtues of kindness, respect, compassion and authenticity. Rebecca also shares an exclusive gift with our audience and provides the link to download it for free.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi there. It's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce service.
I've been practicing family law for over twenty years and
I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.
Along the way, I often have to remind people to

(00:23):
lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Rules simply don't apply. Because all's fair in love and war.
So welcome to the All's Fair Podcasts. Fasten your seatbelts
and let's go. Hello all. It's Laura Wasser and Johnny
Rains from It's over Easy. And in case somehow you

(00:44):
don't know what It's over Easy is, it's not just
a way to make eggs. No, First and foremost, it's
the only online divorce site that encourages spouses to work
together every step of the way. It's over Easy is
also a cool community of people from a variety of
background owns, all with the common goal of making their
next chapters their best chapters. Even though divorce is the

(01:05):
end of one part of a relationship and it's sad,
the legal part of it shouldn't be as difficult as
it is, and I'm determined to show people that there
is another way that doesn't destroy their families or decimate
their finances. If you're on the precipice of divorce, treated
like a business decision, and you'll fare better than most.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't be doing therapy and

(01:26):
other things to help yourself through this time, but I
think the actual legal implications of getting divorced often get
too mixed up with emotions. Isn't it better to save
your money for your kids and yourselves or for practically
anything other than paying attorneys. I always tell clients, the
more you argue with, the more money I make. And
you know your kids better than anyone else, and you

(01:46):
know your finances better than anyone else, and if you don't,
you will. You certainly care about them more than anyone else.
So if you and your ex can keep your emotions
in check, you will save a fortune, not only in dollars,
but in toxic energy. And who needs toxic energy? Um
And speaking of toxic In response the economic hardships brought
on by the coronavirus, It's over easy has reduced the

(02:08):
price of the divorce service to n fifty dollars plus
filing fees. And we know that even with the reduced price,
the emotional component of divorce is never really over easy.
But I can tell you that the legal process of
dissolving a marriage need not be as costlier as tedious.
So we're trying to give you guys a bit of
a break. So in the needs today, Fathers for Justice

(02:28):
launches some bizarre ditch the witch campaign outside Johnny Depp's
court case in England. Right so he I guess this
is from the Independent Emily Goddard. This is an interesting
article for a multitude of reasons. One, they have this
big billboard in front of where he's has a lawsuit
against a British newspaper because they called him a wife beater,
and so they've got heard, right, They've got Amber Heard.

(02:51):
They're testifying and she's a witness for the newspaper because
she's basically saying he was a wife beater. And it's
pretty funny. One of the quotes in this article says
that Amber Heard is the best advert for divorce in
the world, which is I think. But the other thing,
as it goes into the article and what this organization
does divorce four number four men and fathers four number

(03:13):
four Justice. Um, you're really opposed to bringing no fault
into the UK reasons? There's five reasons now, you know,
to say that you're getting divorce, and no fault being
one of them. They say it's sexist and good for
the attorneys and women, but not for dads and kids.
And I don't understand that because I would imagine, like
we have in almost every state now in the US,

(03:35):
no fault is good for anybody that's being accused of
doing something wrong because you don't have to pay attorneys
to prove whether you've had an affair or whether you've
done this. It's just there is no fault. Let's move forward.
So I would like to dig deeper on that at
some point, but maybe not today. Well, the laws expected
to actually become laws in autumn, so there's still time. Yeah,

(03:55):
and probably Johnny and Amber will still be arguing, yeah,
that is not rights right, not rains. Well. I wonder
if Amber, heard by the way, kept her wedding dress
an aside because of the Smart Mommy article by Katie
Bingham Smith. I'm divorced, but I'm keeping my wedding dress. Yes,

(04:16):
that's why. It kind of reminds me of our friends
at the divorce dress dot Com. Yes. Absolutely, this is
a great article. I loved reading it. It's super sweet
and bottom line is this one woman had such a
great experience buyding her wedding dress, thinking about her wedding dress,
going with her mother to buy her wedding dress, and

(04:36):
though the marriage didn't last, she kept the dress and
now she still has great memories attached to it. That's nice.
It is nice to see what people do with their
dresses or their rings. We've seen the woman who shot
at it from a target practice and one woman blew
it up, and this one is keeping it so you
never know. I mean, looking back on a marriage that
ended should be about remembering the good times and what

(04:58):
brought you guys together in the first place, particularly if
you have kids. For many divorces, thinking about their past
with an X is not so pleasant, and this may
be especially true if they're extenuating circumstances, including mental illness.
One listener slid into my d m S the other
day and asked me, how do I move onto my
next chapter when my ex as a narcissist and we
are trying to co parent and there were a few

(05:19):
things I wanted to say to her. But to help
me answer this, we've called in the experts on narcissism online.
My first guest is a psychologist and professor of psychology
at cal State l A who writes extensively and teaches
on the subject of narcissism and managing relationships. Her work
has been featured at south By Southwest, ted X and
on a wide range of media platforms, including Red Table Talk,

(05:40):
and she's a featured expert on the digital media mental
health platform med Circle and on her own YouTube channel.
Welcome to All's Fair, my friend, Dr Emani Dervasula. Thank you, Laura,
Thank you for having me. It so good to see you.
It's very good to be seen. Tell us a little
bit because I know in my practice and also on

(06:01):
all of the it's over easy platforms, it seems like
narcissists has become the word du jour. I remember ten
years ago it was a psychopath, and then um five
years ago it was bipolar. People would come in and
they would have diagnosises for their exes, and now it's
narcissist and I'm not making light of it, but I
do remember in one of your articles you said, it's

(06:24):
probably not a great idea to not throw narcissism around
when you're talking about your divorce process and in the
courtroom and friends and family. So for why is this
word so tricky? Why has it become such a hot
button in family law and relationships? It's tricky for a
lot of reasons, Laura. One tricky bit is that people
view it as a diagnostic term. Right, So if I

(06:47):
call someone a narcissist, immediately people say, oh, yeah, you
shouldn't diagnose someone you haven't met. And they'll certainly say
that to a late person who's coming into your office
who's talking about divorcing someone immediately, it's going to be
don't use a diagnostic term. Frankly, it's not a diagnostic term.
Imagine you were out to dinner or once upon a
time out to dinner on the Zoom call or something
like that with friends, and you see one of them

(07:09):
looks kind of down and is it it's sort of
seeming tearful, and you might say, gosh, Mary seems a
little depressed. No one would call you out on saying
that was a diagnostic term. So I say the same
thing about narcissism. Now, narcissistic personality disorders of diagnosis. That's
a whole separate issue. Calling someone narcissistic is like saying
they're stubborn or they're friendly, or frankly, that they're depressed.

(07:33):
And so that's where it's gotten tricky. So let's start there.
Number One, it's not a diagnostic term. Number two, most
people are not using it the right way. So when
we really talk about what narcissism is, people sort of
have this kind of vision in their head that this
is somebody who is that the grand standard, that the
person who is sort of larger than life, and who

(07:54):
is look at me, I'm so great, look at my Instagram.
It's a lot more complex and nuanced than that. We're
talking about people who are um, who are very insecure
at the core, which is why they do all of
this grandstanding. They're very arrogant, they're very validation seeking, but
they're also very vindictive, they're very manipulative, they can be
very exploitative. They can often put themselves in the role

(08:17):
as a victim, and so in a divorce, you're literally
boiling down the very worst elements of narcissism, the vulnerability,
the insecurity, the obsession with money, the vindictiveness, and it's
all going to pop out then. So it's important people
understand this isn't just somebody who likes to look in
the mirror. It takes in a lot more territory than that.

(08:38):
So those are some of the reasons. But their final
reason is, let's face it, you know this better than
I do, Laura, which is that family court judges and
even attorneys take umbrage at a person marching in and
saying they're a narcissist. And once everyone knows, everything's gonna
go my way and I'm going to get more than
I should get, right, Laura, Right, Laura, And I'm like, yeah, no, dude,
there's a law and so and many times judges take

(08:59):
umbrage at use of that term and will view the
partner who uses the word narcissistic as the more antagonistic
partner in court, which really doesn't serve them well when
it comes to things like custody, etcetera. Can to narcissists
be in a relationship together? Is there always a weaker
and a stronger or a vulnerable I mean, what seems
to me that two narcissists might actually do well together

(09:22):
for a certain period of time. The two narcissists get
into relationships together all the time, especially in l A,
because there's so many of both, you know, on both sides,
whether it's two men to women, to man and women,
you name it, there's plenty of narcissists to pick from.
It does happen. Those are incredibly volatile divorces. I'm sure
you have overseen more than you're a handful. Where there
were two very entitled, difficult, arrogant people really going to

(09:46):
war and it seem more about ego than common sense.
After a while, both of them were telling me that
the other one was a narcissist, which I find interesting too,
and they were right exactly, And then they were right.
Can a narcissist be a good parent? Doctor Emmaney, I mean,
you know what, when it comes to a narcissist being
a good parent, now we're getting into tricky territory in

(10:09):
the macro. My answer to that is probably not. Narcissists
are great Disneyland dads and Disneyland moms. They can really
pull out all the stops on the big day. They're
the parent who's always right there at the front of
the soccer game cheering on. But when that kid really
needs a parent, they're struggling, they're having issues, emotional stuff,
they're struggling with. They just want someone to sit with them.

(10:31):
A narcissistic parent isn't interested in that kind of heavy lifting.
And let's face it, kids are demanding at times. They
can even be inconvenient. They want what they want when
they want it. That's parenting. It's about discipline and sacrifice.
They're not interested in that part of it. So is
that good parenting? Probably not, by and large. With the
way a narcissistic parents parents is, they often view the

(10:52):
child as an accessory. They view the child as a
great Instagram model. They view the child as a way
to get their needs at and one more person to
validate them. But really, you know, having helped the poor
child who doesn't perform the way that narcissistic parent wants
them to perform. They're not thin enough, they're not smart enough,

(11:12):
they don't play ball well enough, they don't praise the
parents well enough, then that child is probably looking at
becoming a scapegoat and really always having that parent reject
them the child and learns their parents love is conditional
and that's no way to grow up. Is something like
narcissistic personality disorder? Is that nature or nurture or a
little bit of both, Like I've heard bipolar disorder has

(11:34):
to do with certain chemicals and your brain and all that.
But but is this a learned behavior or or is
it something that we actually are born with? If you know,
the research on this is evolving, Laura, and where we're
struggling is right now, the state of the science right
now is that this is almost completely nurture with a
tiny bit of nature, and probably some of that nature

(11:55):
has to do a little bit with your inborn temperament
as well as it maybe shoes round empathy and that
kind of thing. But by and large, this is something
that gets made in most cases, not all, not all,
but in many cases there's issues around attachment early on.
There may be distracted parents or maybe parents that are
very conditional in their love. I love you when I

(12:16):
love you. If these are parents who also really want
again the child to be performative. They want as long
as the kids bringing the goods, they love the kid.
When they're not, they don't, And so you know, it's
mostly made. But like I said, temperament does play a role,
which is why you've got some kids who can grow
up in really awful homes and not turn out narcissistic,
and yet another sibling does. So we do see those

(12:37):
differences within families. So your book Should I Stay or
Should I Go? Which you gave me back into Nuary
when we met, um, that's kind of making the decision
to pull the plug? Yes, like how like I mean
at the outside, because then I want to get into
what to be doing or expecting while you're actually going
through the divorce process and thereafter with a narcissist. But

(12:59):
let's talk about at the againning you're in this relationship
and you're starting to realize that things are not going
so well. What is your book talk about in that regard?
So what my book really lays out is sort of
the dynamics of these relationships. And if we only leave
listeners with one takeaway, it would be these folks don't change.

(13:19):
So I tell them this is the climate, you know, like,
this is how it's going to be. It's always going
to be like this. So you might have days that
are a little bit better, but more often than not,
the invalidation, the gas lighting, the discarding, the devaluing. This
is the territory. So if you if you're okay with this, great,
if you're not at which most people would not be
okay with, but if you're not okay with this, it's

(13:41):
not going to change is number one. So then number
two is really prepare people for what they're going into. Again,
this is where you're definitely more of the expert Lauras
when people sort of stroll into your office and just
think they can make this magically happen, and they don't
realize they're coming in for the fight of a lifetime.
I usually counsel most individuals who are going through a
divorce with the narcissist. This is not something that can

(14:03):
be managed through just mediation. They need an attorney they
and they need an attorney who gets it. There's many
attorneys out there who don't, and I've seen many clients
end up with really bad deals as a result because
they didn't see how toxic that this could get. So
I really tell people you're in for the psychological war
of a lifetime, and I tell them to maintain realistic expectations,

(14:25):
be willing to educate the people around you, the lawyers, whomever,
you need to document everything. Expect that this is not
going to go the way you think. The judge isn't
going to see that this person is difficult. In fact,
they're going to see someone very charming, charismatic and well
put together, and they're going to then say, well, what's
the issue here? Both of you can have joint custody
and you're thinking, oh my gosh, this is going to

(14:46):
ruin my kids. It's for that reason alone many people,
and I would say in my practice, half of people
stay in these relationships. It's only half that actually leave.
But because it is the battle of a lifetime, and
some people feel psychologically after years is of emotional abuse
from a narcissist, they're not up to the fight and
they don't know when they're getting into their relationship. So

(15:07):
that's the great question. This is where it gets. You know, Listen,
if somebody said I had a dream for the world,
it would be to actually teach young people about this
so they don't get into these messes in the first place.
But what ends up happening is a couple of things.
Number One, narcissists are very charming, charismatic and confident. That's
what people are told to look for when they're dating.
So I'm basically telling people throw away all conventional boys stuff.

(15:31):
I'll go for an ugly nerd. Well, it's really interesting.
I've been watching mad Men, you know, during the pandemic,
and my my older son and actually got a positive
test so we had to isolate. So we really were
bing to watching. He was fine, asymptomatic, thank god, and
we're out of it. But one great line, I think
it was from season three or four is people tell
you who they are, but we ignore it because we

(15:52):
want them to be who we want them to be.
And I would imagine you get into a relationship with
the narcissist. You see the good things and that stays
with you. You don't actually want to admit to yourself
this is a dick, I mean, you know, And so
that can be a real trap for people. And some
of the things from the book. Do you feel like
you're talking in your partner never listens? Do you keep

(16:13):
saying the same thing? Tell the listeners some of the
things that when they're home listening to this podcast, they go, oh, ship,
I'm in one of these relationships it's again, it's very
much that idea that my favorite is that they'll talk
about themselves and their stuff for like over an hour,
and then you start talking and then they start looking
at their phone or out the window at the TV,
and you'll say, hey, I'm speaking to it. Let's say, oh,

(16:36):
I'm sorry, I have a d h D. And I'll say, oh, really,
because you didn't have about it. I love what you
do with on in your book, you know, because you
really illustrate that so well. And it's it's actually quite
a great I don't know if it's it's fiction or
I would imagine it might be based on someone that

(16:57):
you might have worked with, but you really capture exactly
what you just said. Yeah, it's all actually Johnny, it's
a compilation of about a dozen different people. Because I
didn't want to, you know, it was like a detail
from this one in detail from that one, because the
bottom line story was the same. But it's it's not
just inattentiveness. It's also and this is a real tell
when you're dealing with a narcissistic relationship, which is they're very,

(17:20):
very very sensitive, so they can dish it out to
you left and right. They can criticize a server in
a restaurant, they can criticize a friend, they can criticize
the family, they can criticize you. But the first time
they may even experience a little slight like you might
say something as innocuous is like, hey, I like that
shirt on you. In fact, I saw it last weekend.

(17:41):
It look great on you. Then they will go on
when you're saying, are you saying I only what are
you saying I don't have a wardrobe? And then you'll oh,
my gosh, I think I thought i'd give him a compliment,
And in short order you're going to find yourself walking
on eggshells. And it's that sensitivity because most people will
then say, oh, that was my fault. I shouldn't have
said that about the shirt, or that was my fault,
that was my fault, and it's a lot of self blame.

(18:03):
That self blame starts the cycle into sometimes years, decades
of that sort of maybe this is my fault, maybe
this is my fault, to the point where you almost
feel like you can't say anything, but that real sensitivity,
that everything feels like it's a threat, because honestly, a
narcissist always does feel under threat because they're so fragile,
so that they get so worked up that very quickly

(18:25):
over something small, even from a stranger. That's a huge
tell early in the relationship. Another tell is how do
they talk about other people? Are they dismissive? Are they contemptuous?
And I don't just mean like sort of good natured gossip.
I mean like mean, because I can promise you that
if they're talking about other people like this, they're going
to talk about you like this, especially in their actions.

(18:48):
If you're in a second around anybody. I always tell people,
if he's talking shit about his ex, here your next, Yeah,
your next, your next. And so I think that that
contemptuousness that they have for other people, that's a big one.
And here's like sort of an interesting one that's like
a little tidbit I share with everyone is watch how
they drive. Aggressive driving is actually associated with narcissism. Think

(19:11):
about it. You have no empathy for the other people
on the road. You're entitled enough to sort of zoom
pass them. You are arrogant enough to think that the
traffic rules don't Johnny, are you thinking what I'm thinking?
I can see it. I've known him for so long
Johnny's going, well, now we know Laura's a narcissist. We
already knew that, Johnny, I'm trying to be empathetic and
think about how I can be better, rather than having

(19:33):
all of our listeners know that I actually am one
of these. Is the name of the book, Relationship with
the Narcissist. You should read it. You learn how to
stay But driving interesting because it really is like for

(19:53):
you know, listen, I'm not talking about the persons like, hey,
the road's empty, I'm gonna take my sports cars. No, no,
I'm talking to people in cedast lane change lane, change cuts.
You know where we live in l A. We know, yes,
we know, And I mean it's funny. My kids absolutely
hate driving them, Like here we go three to one.

(20:14):
I'm like, that's a narcissist. Oh my gosh, mom, please stop.
I love it. She's on the road. I wish to
get you a personalized license ate that says you are
a n R C S T. That'd be hilarious. I'm
Laura Wiser, your host, and this is the It's Over

(20:35):
Easy podcast All's Fair on I Heart Radio. Today it's
almost impossible to turn on the news or listen to
a podcast without hearing someone labeled a narcissist. I know
that's the case in my office. It's one thing to
be able to switch your feet or change the channel,
but what if you're married to someone with a narcissistic
personality disorder and you've realized it's time to move on?

(20:56):
For many, this is easier said than done, which is
why we've called the experts today. You just met psychologist
Dr Romany Divasla, a leading mental health expert who specializes
in guiding divorces through the emotional side of dissolution of marriage.
And now I want you to be in our next guest,
who is one of the most prominent voices on divorce
and narcissistic personality disorder. She's also one of our Inner

(21:17):
Circle on the It's Over Easy community online. She's an
attorney recognized by the u S News and World Report,
and she's the creator of the on demand program Slay
Your Negotiation with a Narcissist and her YouTube channel is
a mussy for TV for anyone in a relationship with
a suspected narcissist. She's the author of three best selling
books and the host of the podcast Negotiate Your best Life.

(21:39):
Welcome to All's Fair. Rebecca zung Esquire, Hi, Laura, it's
so nice to see everybody. Yes for coming so. Um,
we had been talking to Dr Romany. She gave us
some great kind of diagnostic psychological stuff from you. You've
definitely written about and spoken about how this affects divorce,

(21:59):
how it affects me to go as in a divorce, Um,
what's hoovering? What's uvering? Fall prey to? But I mean
it's basically when they're there, it's in that discard phase.
When they come back, I start, um trying to love

(22:21):
bomb again and use that same technique that they used
to gain control over you. You see it a lot
in divorce, especially when the divorce lawyer is involved and
the divorce lawyer is now starting to have control over
this person that the narcissist once I control over, and
they start going, oh, come on, we can work it

(22:42):
out and remember how good we were together, and um,
you know, uh, they might even try to get them back, um,
you know, because maybe they don't want to lose the
window dressing of the great family that they had. Um,
you know that sort of thing. So you see it
when they think that they're losing control over the process. Um,

(23:08):
they start using what they had in the past to
get that person to be back into their web of control.
Is it safe to say that narcissists actually enjoy the
fight and the chaos, Like if things are starting to
get resolved, I've seen in many cases that same kind
of personality that's like, oh, come on or whatever, like

(23:29):
you're almost there, and then all of a sudden something
happens And I think to myself, this, I hadn't thought
about it in terms of narcissism. But what you guys
are saying makes sense. This person loves the chaos. They
don't want to end the conflict. Yeah. Well so, I mean,
as Dr Romney speaks much more eloquently about than I do,

(23:49):
narcissists are driven by supply and and and so they
get supply in all different forms. Um it supplies anything
that feeds their ego. And they can get supply life
from you know, the normal trappings that feed people's egos,
like big houses and prestigious jobs and things like that.
But they also get supply from jerking people around. And

(24:11):
so you're not on the same playing field when you're
a reasonable person because reasonable person thinks, Okay, I don't
want to spend a lot of money on lawyers. I
just want to get this thing done. What does the
law say, Let's just figure that out and apply it
and be done with this thing. That's normal reasonable person.
Um the uh, the narcissist just like thinking, well, I

(24:36):
get supply from jerking you around, so they're not trying
to settle the case the same way that a reasonable
person is. So from your Instagram feed, I think it
was in the last week or so, catching a narcissist
and a lie. That always sounds like it could be fun.
What happens when a narcissist gets caught in a lie?

(24:57):
And how do you approach it? How I want to Well,
as a divorce lawyer, Um, you use it against them
in court if you can, or you use it as
as potential leverage that you're going to expose them in court,
because you know, the key with a narcissist is interrupting
it or threatening to interrupt their form of supply. So

(25:20):
the key when you're negotiating with them is figuring out
what supply source is going to mean more to them
to keep then the supply that they get from jerking
you around. So and it's usually in the form of
looking good to the judges, or looking good to the community,
or not losing, you know, custody of their children because

(25:42):
people can see that, you know, that sort of thing.
So lying, obviously you're going to use in whatever way
you can in court. But how do they respond to lying?
You know, if you catch them in a lie, deny
that they lied, deflect, you know it was your fault.
You know, whatever they need to do to circut off
of them, that's what they do. I think you would

(26:05):
agree with me about this, Rebecca. How about when the
lawyer is a narcissist, because we know a few we
have During the last segment we determined I'm one, So
there you go, there's one. When she's behind the wheel.
That's so funny. I practiced in Naples, Florida, though, which
is also a very affluent UM community with many a narcissist.

(26:29):
No shortage there either, so um and certainly not with
the opposing counsel. You know, you just have to deal
with them kind of in the same way, figuring out
what you need to do to stroke enough of their ego.
You know, I always say, ethically manipulate the manipulator so
that you stroke enough of their egos so that you

(26:49):
can get done what you want to get done and
actually get somewhere. I mean, you're not gonna get anywhere
with a narcissist by calling them a narcissist or just
you know, saying the things to them that you feel
like saying. Unfortunately, you have to do this little dance,
which a lot of people don't want to do. But

(27:10):
I mean I've had narcissistic clients flat out say to me,
I'd rather pay you than her. Of course, oh I've
heard that a ton, yes, And so you have to
then kind of manipulate your own client for his or
her own good, because we are ethical and we don't
want to just take somebody's money, and so we got
to figure out a way. I mean, that is one

(27:30):
thing I would say about family law attorneys. The good
ones are really good problem solvers, and we will do
whatever needs to be done to kind of do that dance,
as you said, to work around it and get our
clients to understand, you know what, you might have to
eat this one, or you know what, you might have
to pick your battles or you know what, we might
have to throw some money at this problem. But it
is better for you to pay her than pay me,

(27:52):
because I'm going away. You're never gonna see me again.
You're gonna be raising kids with her, even if you're
not under the same roof a hundred percent, plus the
fact that those are the claients that end up turning
on you. And at the end, you know, how come
you didn't get this thing done? How come you didn't
tell me that you know I was going to have
to spend a hundred grand on this, Or how come
I spent a hundred grand on you and we're back

(28:13):
where we started at the beginning. You know, things like that,
And so I'm the one that has to go. I
don't want to have this conversation six months from now,
so I'd rather and I have plenty to do, plenty
of clients. If I'm not working on your case, I
had other stuff to do. It works out better for
you if we get this thing done, and ultimately they do.

(28:33):
I think thank us for that. So Johnny put in
my notes discussed the meaning of the question and answer below.
Why did the narcissists cross the road? And the answer
is because they thought it was a boundary. Tell us
about that, Rebecca, because that's in your talking points and
I love it. Yeah, thank you. I just I have
to do a little shout out to Kennedy who runs
my Instagram, because she comes up with these great things. Um.

(28:58):
But because as it was a boundary, because you know,
it goes back to entitlement, which is one of the
things that narcissists think that they are, so they don't
think they have any boundaries, which in a divorce makes it,
you know, even doubly hard because when you're trying to
put up boundaries, they want to immediately cross them. So
that's when you find them, you know, coming into your house,

(29:22):
even if you you know, have an order of exclusive occupancy,
you know there they are standing in your kitchen eating
your food when you come home. If it happens to
me a lot actually people I don't even know are there.
And how I mean, tell us, how can you get
somebody with these tendencies to actually negotiate successfully? Again, there's

(29:44):
the manipulation they're setting it out. I mean, give us
some of your tricks of the trade if you can. Yeah. So,
I mean that's what I built the whole slave program
around which is developing a strategy and overall strategy first
of all, figuring out what kind of narciss sis you're
dealing with UH and then UM, and then creating leverage

(30:05):
around them and and you know, leverage. You know, I
got the question. I actually just did a video on
this on my YouTube because I get the question a lot,
like what is leverage? And you know as well as
I do, Laura, that leverage is not one thing. Sometimes
you do have like this great smoking gun, but most
of the time, the leverage that you create comes out of,

(30:26):
you know, your documentation, and really nobody has better suited
to help the divorce lawyer come up with leverage than
you yourself, the person who's dealing with it, because we
don't have control of the information where the leverage is
going to be, you know, come from, which is inside
your text messages, inside your photos, inside the people around you,

(30:49):
the pictures that you've taken, or the things that you've
seen on social media or whatever. All those things together
you build a huge invisible fence around them, which you
kind of like bring on them, hopefully in mediation or
something like that, in a place where they kind of
feel cornered, where they feel like, Okay, if I don't

(31:09):
settle this, I'm going to be exposed in some way.
Goes back to that that whole supply conversation, which is,
you know what supply is going to be more important
for them to protect and keep, and that is how
most of the time it's going to be how they
look to the community or to the judge, and so

(31:31):
you know, building that leverage is going to be really
a key key thing. Is there a correlation between domestic
violence and narcissism? I would imagine that many narcissists stopped
short of that because, again, like you said, the perception
and how they want to be viewed and how they
want to look. But Dr mnd is just shaking her head.
Is it so hard to control those emotions that the

(31:54):
next reasonable step after flip flipping someone off in the
car screaming at them is actually to push or threaten
or slam a door. Yeah, I mean, I would say
probably Dr Romney is in a better position to answer
that question. But you know, just from what I've seen
and what I've viewed and what I've experienced, which is
what I speak about in my videos, I have seen that,

(32:17):
and I've seen the people who have a higher propensity
to commit domestic violence exhibit the narcissistic traits and the
narcissistic tendencies. Um, those are the ones. You know, the
more malignant form of narcissist is going to be the
one who tends to you know, if you put up
those boundaries, now they're gonna you know, stock you or

(32:39):
or have violence or threats of violence or you know,
things where you're actually in fear for your life, I mean,
and then it can happen even during the relationship, not
necessarily in the divorce obviously. Do you have a gift
for our listeners, Recca, I do, so if you go
to win my Negotiation dot com, you can get my

(32:59):
free Crush Negotiation Worksheet. It's basically an e book. It's
like fifteen pages and thousands of people have downloaded it
now at this point. So if you're getting ready to
negotiate with any kind of a high conflict personality, I
highly recommend that you grab it. Thank you for that.
That's awesome, guys. Well, at the end of the show,
we'll tell you again where to find it. But it's

(33:20):
totally helpful. And again, if you're doing some kind of
mediation or even an online platform like it's over easy.
Add this to it and you will slay your negotiation.
Dr Emani is joining Rebecca Zong and I now come
on back, and now that we're all together, I want
to talk about next chapter's life after you've slayed your negotiation,

(33:41):
because you said, Rebecca that you know they like to
keep that supply going, and Dr Rominey has told us
about how they really do like the continued conflict. So
now we're still co parenting, or we may still have
some business interests. How do I like what I'm saying?
We when we've already identified me as the narcissist, but
how do how does the com and folk kind of

(34:01):
move on with our lives both taking the best self
care as we can for ourselves, and now that we're
not married to we've we've resolved our legal differences, our
custody issues, everything else with this person. What is the
best way that we can move on to our next
chapter knowing that that that we've we've been in this
relationship and we may have to continue dealing with it

(34:22):
on some level. We're back to the realistic expectations and
the radical acceptance again. This nightmare is not over just
because you're divorced. When you're co parenting, in fact, things
may get even more difficult. You don't know what kinds
of things may be shared with your child. You don't
know what sorts of things happen in your ex's home.

(34:43):
Now you've they bed times may be different. You're constantly
playing against chaos. In fact, many people will say when
they're trying to co parent with the narcissist, it takes
the twenty four to forty eight hours to get their
kids back on track again, and then a few days
later they're sometimes sending them back. So it is it
can be really, really difficult. You might find that they
make it difficult for you to date again. There may

(35:03):
be a lot of snarky comments that mean it never ends,
it never ends. And then you might think, well, when
all the kids are over eighteen, it's gonna be great.
Not weddings, birth, you name it. But also beyond that,
even when the kids get over eighteen, that narcissistic parents
still has the obsession I'm gonna win, and I'm gonna win.

(35:25):
I'm gonna win. The kids are gonna like me better,
everything's going to be better. They'll even go ahead move
forward with their lives quite handily, but obviously they'll find
a replacement partner in many cases quite quickly, but still
seemingly trying to sabotage the mess urine. And I think
there's this fantasy depiction. I want to be great friends
with my exes, and that looks good to the public.

(35:46):
It's not going to happen. Let go of the fantasy
that is not happening. Have that radical acceptance. They're not
going to change. No, the next person is not going
to have it better. You need to focus singularly on
your kids. You be that that the compassion, the empathy,
the consistency, the predicted maybe maybe the discipline to definitely,

(36:09):
and dad or mom on the other end is going
to be thwarting that. Yeah, so you've got to be
that person and you don't get to be surprised. You've
seen what the challenge this whole court process was, and
if you're lucky, you land where you want to. Most
people are usually disappointed with how custody comes down the
pike to them, and so you're constantly doing damage control,

(36:29):
and that is the damage control you will do obviously
when they're over eighteens a different series of conversations, but
it really can. I mean, listen, some people get lucky,
the narcissists gets disinterested, they move on, and if you're
really lucky, they actually start getting disinterested in the kids
and you get more time with your kids. That's and
people say, that's so sad for my kids. I'm like,
your your kids are gonna have to struggle with having

(36:50):
a narcissistic parent. Either way, the more time with the
healthier parents are better. Office there, Rebecca, do people go
back to the narcissism, Well, like, if somebody, if somebody
gets rid of a narcissist, you see them then starting
to date a narcissist again. We're talking about next chapters,
but I feel like I see a lot of people
who keep going back to the same kind of a person,

(37:11):
even after they've been through this kind of terrible war
that Dr Romineys has painted for us. And then the
next dating is kind of like, well look at who
you look at who you're with again. Oh yeah, I've
seen it in my own practice over and over again.
But you know, the statistics are buried out as well.
I mean, first marriages end in divorce, but as you

(37:35):
get into more marriages. I think it's second marriages it's
like sixty seven percent, and third marriages is like seventies
something percent. So I mean, I think that that tells
you right there that people don't get better, they don't
make better choices as they as they go on. So unfortunately,
you know, I think it has something to do with um,

(37:57):
you know, their own wounds sometimes and the than the
types of things that they find themselves being attracted to.
Why do you think at this moment in our culture, particularly,
I would say in the United States and even in Europe,
you find this. Why are there so many people exhibiting
this type of behavior right now? Do you think, Well,
johnn I'm gonna push back on that. I'm going to
say it's the whole world. I don't think it's Western

(38:19):
Europe and United States by any stretch of the imagination.
I you know, we're we're now fielding hundreds and hundreds
of emails sometimes a day, and they're coming from all
over the world. There's ends in a map. There's no
part of the world where this isn't an issue. And
I think it's a couple of things. I think that
now people have a framework so we're using it. I
think this pattern has always been there, to be honest

(38:40):
with you, but I actually do think that social media
has been a major accelerant for this, this idea that
you can just get validation for the from the comfort
of your own home. I do think that the you know,
sort of the loss of community as something that matters,
and whether that's the community reside in a religious community,
spiritual community. A lot of those things are going away.

(39:00):
And those things were once places of accountability. You couldn't
act a fool all the time. People would say, come on,
you need to clean up your act. So that kind
of accountability is also gone. And I hate to say it.
The way we measure success how you look, how slender
you are, how how much money you have, how fancy
your house is, the car you drive, those things have been,
where you go to school. Those things have become almost

(39:23):
a measure of the person rather than kindness, respect, compassion, authenticity.
I think a combination of all that, like the more
you spend, the better the person you are, has all
culminated in this moment where basically we've become a world
of either narcissists or enablers. I'm trying to create that
third tribe of folks that are neither narcissists or enablers,

(39:43):
but the people who see this and see this clearly
so they are able to not fall for it and
also call it out. Yeah, I would. I would just
wanted to echo that it's definitely all over the world.
I'm seeing it is well from my community. I mean,
I'm like getting inquiries from people from countries I've never
even heard of where I'm actually going on the map,

(40:04):
going where is this place? You know? I mean, So
I would just agree with her on that and what
I mean for this third tribe. What are some of
the things that you would tell people to tell themselves
or to check in with again, I don't I know what.
I don't want to be. I don't want to be
a narcissistic. I don't want to be an enabler. Authenticity, kindness, empathy,

(40:26):
and compassion are those kind of the checkpoints stuff. Absolutely
that all those things respect. I mean, and this is
hard for men who are often told that showing emotion,
showing empathy means you're weak, that you're not good at business,
that you you're not like a fighter. And we've so
devalued these qualities, and so many people, like I said,

(40:47):
I think men really got the short end of the
stick on this one, because they may even feel like, well,
I don't want to be able to think I'm you know, softy,
You're not as softy. I mean, I think that this
is the stuff that builds societies, builds communities. I mean,
the all this kind of falling apart around our ears
right now, and a lot of that I personally think
is because we're lacking those qualities in leaders in instructures

(41:09):
and governments. So you see, I think that once we
could value those things, which I think there have been
moments in world history we have. This just ain't one
of them that we can get there. But as long
as we keep giving the bullies the mic, we've got
a problem. Wow, Okay, I mean, this has been an
amazing and eye opening conversation. We do something now called

(41:32):
the interrogatory. So Rebecca, as a fellow attorney, I know
you're all too familiar with Discovery and Dr Romney through
the term interrogatory, maybe as familiar to you as it
is to Rebecca and I. These are questions that we
asked to find out important information. Very important information. So
do you both swear to tell the truth and nothing
but the truth? So help me God. Absolutely? Okay, So, Rebecca,

(41:56):
which relationship in your life has had the most profound impact? Oh?
My father for sure, absolutely, And today is actually the
twelfth anniversary of his death, so he's with me today
as my guardian. Angel. I love that salute to him.
Thank you, doctor, most profound. My mother, your mother, I mean,

(42:19):
she is a woman who came from a world where
opportunities were held back from all women. She you know,
no choice in who she married, had no choice in
so much in her life, and yet with absolute grace,
sacrificed at all state in a country that was unfamiliar
to her because she knew her daughters would have more
opportunity in the United States, and really was I mean,

(42:40):
she is absolute strengthen. As I watched her go through
this medical crisis, it's it's a it's a playbook on grace.
So I really I think every fight I have is
not just for her, but the hundreds of generations of
women in my family who never got a voice. So
I talk louder than everybody else now, So I like that.
I'm sure she's so so proud of you and Rebecca.
I know, Dad smiling down. Um, dtr what is your

(43:03):
favorite love song? Oh my goodness, wow, I mean I
guess should I stay or should I golah yes, yes
run so I um oh god, I'm so bad at this.
You know what I I'll tell you what it is.
It's a rolling stones. You can't always get what you want?

(43:24):
Very und I think that's good. I don't think we've
heard that one before. Yeah, but it's smart. How about you, Rebecca. Wow,
that's so funny. I'm still laughing. From any choices for
love songs, I would have to say, I mean, I
think perfect by Ed Shearon is a beautiful song. Um,

(43:49):
I don't know. I don't know. Um, i'd have to
think about that. I want to say love song by
the Cure, but it's not actually really a love song.
I don't think well as much as I can't always
get what you want? Dr Romany, what is the one
piece of advice that you'd share with your twenty something

(44:09):
your old self. You've given us a window into it
a little bit, but give us some more on that.
Drop the toxic people immediately, Like when when you are
with somebody who invalidates you walk away and walk away fast.
Don't wait, They're not changing, not gonna happen on Rebecca,
how about you advice you'd give you a twenty year
old self by something. Yeah. Oh, and I still tell

(44:32):
myself this on a daily basis, which is stopped trying
to make not your people your people. You know, if
they're not your people, it's okay, just keep on going
for other people. There's because there's lots of people that
are my people. I want to find that third tribe.
I want to have those be my people. You can't.
You have to be with the enablers. I'm sorry, that's

(44:54):
your You're staying there for respect kind of empathy and compassion. Yes, rominy,
Which romantic comedy could you watch on repeat? I told
you these were important questions. Come on, let's get there. Moonstruck,
Snap out of It. I love it, Rebecca. Four Weddings
in a Funeral. I still love that movie. It is

(45:16):
a good one, excellent. And the scene at the whereafter
um I can't remember his name with the beard he dies,
and then at his funeral, the funeral and the poem
that rum Yes, I love it. I still just I
just got the children. Well, speaking of your dad, we're
about to celebrate the one year anniversary of my mother's death.
It was this week last year, and I always think

(45:39):
of that song. I mean, it is the fact that
life kind of goes on while you're in this suspended animation.
Everything is changed, is definitely. But anyway, that's kind of
a buzz kill. Let's let's get back to the But
it's so true. I remember thinking, like after day after
he died, like I don't recognize a planet without him, Like,
how is that post the book? Yeah? Okay, thank you

(46:02):
both very much for discussing narcissism and sharing your perspective
today with us and all's fair. Tell us how people
can find you your books, your programs, and also, Rebecca,
when it's your turn. We're gonna let the doctor go first,
but when it's your turn, tell us again how we
can um download the yes, the free gift. Okay, so
doctor I g YouTube everything. Tell us go to my

(46:24):
website that's pretty much a clearinghouse at dr Romany dot com,
which is d O C T O R DASH R
A M A n I dot com. Please go to
my YouTube channel and join us and subscribe. We're growing
so fast, and that's that Dr romany d O C
T O R R A M A and I and
that same handle for Instagram, on Facebook, Twitter, all those

(46:44):
places you could find us and we post daily, post
videos daily, so there is no shortage of content. I
have two books, don't you know who I Am? How
do stay sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement and incivility?
As well as the book you mentioned Should I Stay
or Should I Go? How does survive a relationship for
the narcissist? You can get those books. Actually just sold
out of one of them on Amazon, but they just

(47:05):
restocked today, so you can get them your local bookseller.
You can get them Barns of Noble, Amazon, anywhere they
sell books, and they are amazing. They will give you
peace of mind. You will learn about things that you'll
scratch your head and go. I didn't realize that's exactly
what this was. This is so on point um. Definitely
check them out. Amazing resources, Rebecca, how about you? So?

(47:26):
The website is Rebecca Zong dot com r A B
E C C A z U n G. My YouTube
is YouTube dot com. Forward slash Rebecca's song and I
did want to make a little plug because um Dr
Romney and I did a whole series together on Negotiating
with a Urcissis which has been extremely popular, which anyone

(47:47):
can watch on either one of our channels, So I
highly recommend um everyone subscribed to both of our channels
on that. And um, let's see Instagram is Rebecca song books,
um shoot like you Matter, I'm Breaking Free step by
step divorce guide and Loraa Wasser you actually gave me

(48:07):
a testimonial for Negotiating Like Your Matter, and Robert Shapiro
wrote the forward, so you can get that anywhere where
books are sold, but you can just check it all
out at my website as well. So thanks so much
for having me. Oh free gift is when my negotiation
dot Com. That's the free crush my Negotiation worksheet. It's
again amazing resources. Ladies. Thank you so much for Benjams.

(48:31):
Especially now more than ever, we need to know that
there are people in our community to whom we can turn,
who have been through this, who can have talked other
people through it. I do believe that education is enlightenment
and empowerment, and so thank you for helping us with that.
Today we will absolutely be seeing you again or hearing
you again on the All Sphare podcast. Thank you, thank you,

(48:54):
Thanks ladies. WHOA so. I did not expect to learn
so much about the difference which narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder,
and to determine that there is actually a difference between
the two. That's what it was interesting to me. Yes,
I knew everything. It was inherent in me the narcissist.

(49:14):
But I think giving narcissists a bit of a bad rap.
But that's okay. It's good to survive narcissists and thrive,
as you called the episode. You guys, thanks for listening today.
Tell us what you think about today's show and what
you want to hear next at It's over easy. On
social you can share this episode with your friends who
need it or who might be narcissists and leave us.

(49:35):
A review at Apple Podcast said, leave the USA, just leave,
get out. We will see you next week. Stay healthy,
stay happy. Chow