June 23, 2020 • 43 mins
Outspoken, no-nonsense real-life judicial officer Judge Lynn from TV’s Divorce Court joins Attorney Laura Wasser and It’s Over Easy Chief Content Officer Johnnie Raines for a frank conversation about the relationship between Black men in America and the police. We discuss the #BlackLivesMatter movement, police brutality and what the non-profit organization she supports called Bloom365 is doing to help eliminate Domestic Violence by going into schools to teach kids about healthy relationships. Judge Lynn also spills the tea on what she’s planning in her next chapter after leaving the venerable television series Divorce Court that she’s hosted for the past 13 years. This is one you won’t want to miss!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi there. It's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce Service.
I've been practicing family law for over twenty years and
I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.
Along the way, I often have to remind people to
(00:21):
lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Rules simply don't apply. Because all's fair in love and war.
So welcome to the All's Fair Podcasts. Fasten your seatbelt
and let's go. Hi there, everyone, I'm Laura Wasser, I'm
Johnny Rains, and this is the It's over Easy podcast
All's Fair. Though my day job is practicing family law
(00:43):
and managing my family law firm. Since we launched It's
over Easy, the online Divorce Service and we started podcasting,
one of the things I'm most satisfied with is being
able to educate people about their relationships. Family law provides
the opportunity to learn so much about so many and
because of the nature of the attorney client relationship in
family law, were given a window into the psyche and
(01:05):
soul of my clients, which is more intimate and more
informative than one might immediately imagine. It starts with the surface,
what is this person's story? What do they do for
a living with their sexual orientation, their proclivities, their race,
their religion, their culture, their child rearing beliefs. Well at
that share the mic now event you wouldn't divorce attorney
(01:26):
Kimberly A Cook did on Instagram last week. You spoke
about diversity and family law. You both mentioned that these
tactics helped to make stronger connections with your clients, which
I thought was interesting. Yeah, Kimberly is awesome. She asked
me to do that share the mic, which was a
really cool exercise. Again, keeping these conversations going. By the way,
Kimberly at Grown Girl Divorce on Insta. She's a partner
(01:48):
at Schiller, Dukanto and Fleck LLP in Chicago. She's an
amazing family law attorney in Illinois and I highly recommend her.
I want to give her a shout out, Hey, grown
Girl Divorce. I've had science who are entertainers, athletes, executives, academics, homemakers, writers, directors,
financial professionals, healthcare providers and plenty of others, and I
(02:08):
make a point to learn what they do and what
they believe, so I can understand what motivates them and
where they're coming from. Oh if only there were more lawyers,
at least ones with yours and Kimberly's thirst for understanding
what a world this would be. But change does seem
to be in the air. In the news almost every
day this week, there are stories about regular people trying
(02:29):
to put themselves in other people's shoes. According to a
Pew Research study done June four through the tenth Americans
are talking to family and friends about race and racial equality.
Of those surveyed, including majorities across racial and ethnic groups,
say they have done so in the last month, and
thirty seven percent of those who use social networking sites
say they have posted or shared content related to ethnicity
(02:52):
or ethnic equality on these sites during this period. For example,
in case some of you might not be on TikTok,
this was shared May thirty one by an interracial couple
dancers Alison Holker and Stephen twitch Boss. In the video,
the couple take the check your Privileged challenge while their
four year old son sits on twitches lap. Laura and
I are going to check our privilege and play along
(03:14):
with each of our very own ten fingers. I think
you're gonna win this one, Laura, check your privileged edition.
Put a finger down. If you have been called a
racial slur, put a finger down. If you've been followed
in a store unnecessarily, put a finger down. If someone
has crossed the street to avoid passing you, put a
finger down. If you've had someone clenched their purse in
(03:34):
an elevator with you, put a finger down. If you've
hacked on one step off of an elevator to keep
from writing with you, put a finger down. If you've
been accused of not being able to afford something expensive,
put a finger down. If you have had fear in
your heart when being stopped by the police, put a
finger down. If you have never been given a pass
on a citation that you deserved, put a finger down.
(03:56):
If you have been stopped or detained by police for
no valid reason, put her finger down. If you have
been bullied solely because of your race, put a finger down.
If you have been denied service solely because of the
color of your skin, put a finger down. If you've
ever had to teach your child, how not to get
killed by the police. Any finger's left. That's privilege. I
(04:16):
saw it originally, I think because Twitch and Alison I
are on Ellen and so I think I saw it
on her Instagram feed. So I saw it on May
thirty first, when I first came out. And it really
is when you see the two of them and they're
sitting there. Once you get over at the length of
her nails, you realize that it really is, like it's crazy,
and and they're married, they sleep together every night. Like
(04:39):
the differences in their experiences really is compelling and provocative.
And that's what this whole it makes you think. It's
making us talk about it. I think it's important in
America right now. On huff Post, Brittany Wong, who I
know I've worked with before. She's the senior lifestyle reporter,
wrote a story about the Twitch and al listen white
(05:01):
privilege TikTok, interracial couples share their experiences trying to educate
and inform white peers about the black experience in America,
including what's being called white debt, the idea that the
American economy as we know it was built on slavery,
as the new York Times Stunning sixteen nineteen podcast broke
down last year black bodies were actually used as full
(05:22):
or partial collateral for land by slave owners. Well, speaking
of interracial couples, and some good news, Um, Loving Day
just passed. So happy belated Loving Day, which is the
day that's dedicated to the couple, the married couple responsible
for the landmark civil rights decision of the U. S.
Supreme Court um in nineteen sixty four. To no, you
(05:49):
think i'd know that that's the year I was born. Um,
But but yes they are. They're the couple behind the
landmark civil rights decision um that it enabled any couple
any race to marry without it being illegal. And now
June twelve is known as Loving Day, which is just
so appropriate because their names. If you haven't seen it,
(06:09):
two thousand and sixteen, there was the movie called Loving
which starred Ruth Negga and Joel Edgerton, and it was
so good. I mean it really it breaks it down.
It's entertaining. I don't even think I was aware of that.
I mean, obviously I was aware of the fact that
in nine seven this had happened, that interracial marriages became legal.
But their story and just like I said, the fact
(06:31):
that their name was The Lovings is amazing. It's actually
streaming this month on HBO, so people check it out.
In our conversation last week with Jody Patterson, we spoke
about the All Black Lives Matter movement, which includes trans
boys and girls, and how to raise children to be activists.
And the thing that just really stayed with me from
(06:51):
our Jody episode was how she has a formula of
dose and environment and how talking to kids in a
safe environment with small doses of what they may be
able to expect going forward kind of gives them the immunity.
Like if you are going to give somebody a flu shot,
you give them a little bit of the flu. So
(07:12):
when you're at a family dinner, when you're at a
safe place, a picnic um, you know, sitting with the
family and speaking about something, bring some of these things up,
introduced them into the conversation. So they get this dose
in this environment and they can kind of process, ask questions,
think about it. Then in whenever, weeks, months, years, something
(07:34):
actually happens that would be the event of which you're
speaking or of which is is the topic of the
conversation they've had that little bit they've had, that little
flu shot that I can't stop thinking about. I've incorporated
that into the conversations at meal time with with my
kids and Johnny and I intend to keep this conversation
going because these relationships are as fascinating, if not more
(07:59):
fascinating than some of the things we generally speak about
on All's Fair, breakups and makeups and stuff like this.
Um it's resonating currently and today we're going to speak
about the relationship between the police and black men, specifically
about the systemic racism that remains in our criminal justice
system and the continued use of fatal force that seldom
(08:20):
results in repercussions for the officers involved. Joining us to
share her judgments on the topic is someone many of
you know from her thirteen years on the bench of
the most famous syndicated court in the country, the one
on TV. She's been nominated for an Emmy for her
work on television, and she's beloved by millions. She's also
a Harvard graduate who got her law degree at the
University of Pennsylvania Law School. At the age of thirty three,
(08:43):
she was elected judge of the Cleveland Heights Municipal Court
where she served for eight years prior to captivating America
on the Venerable Courtroom show Divorce Court. She's the author
of three books and the mother of two sons and
four stepsons. Welcome to All's Fair, Judge Lynn Toler hid Hi,
how are you, Laura? I'm very well. Thank you for
(09:03):
joining us. This is so topical and I'm so thrilled
to have you here. Let's just speak for a moment
about you personally in my world, and I guess yours too,
to a certain extent, because the divorce court. Being married
for thirty three years, it's quite an accomplishment. Yes, yes
it is. And nobody's gotten shot or anything. I mean,
it's it's, it's it's it's always a ride. It's never easy,
(09:27):
but uh, it's worth the effort. Yeah. People say it's
the hardest job you'll ever do. I thought that was parenthood.
But again, I I've never been married more than a minute,
so parenthood is clearly the hardest job you will ever do.
Sometimes parenthood helps you stay in love with your partner
because it's you against them, right, So totally, yes, you
(09:49):
gotta you in the army. So you you and Eric
you got married in nine, and you guys have two
sons together, but four stepsons that he had before you
have four stepsones. So there's six boys all together, correct
correct ages. The oldest is fifty okay, and the baby
(10:10):
just turned okay. So let's talk a little bit well first,
let's talk a little bit a bit more about you.
So in two thousand two, you've got the Humanitarian of
the Year Award by the Cleveland Domestic Violence Center. We
do a lot of discussion on the show and in
my work with domestic violence, so that really puts it
in perspective, I think. And then in two thousand nine
(10:31):
you were given the Voice of Freedom Award, where you
were honored to join the ranks of previous recipients like
Vice President Al Gore and Colin Powell. Now you went
to become the host of Divorce Court in two thousand six,
and then you did a lot of other projects during
that time, Decision House, you did contributions to and PR
(10:52):
You are co executive producer of Wedlock or Deadlock, and
you've done a ton of stuff with Bloom three six.
Tell us about that. Bloom three sixty is in an
organization designed to help eliminate domestic violence, not by responding
to it, but trying to prevent it before it occurs,
by going into schools with junior high schools and high
(11:13):
schools to teach kids, women and men, boys and girls
about healthy relationships, what it is to have a healthy relationship,
so potential victims don't become victimizers. And deeper still, so
potential perpetrators don't become perpetrators because that's a learned behavior
and a response to things that we don't often recognize.
(11:36):
You can't just react, you have to be proactive. Okay,
So again, Johnny and I speak a lot about domestic
violence on the show. We've seen a rise in it
in Los Angeles. Superior Courts is the only thing that
we're open for right now is the DV stuff, and
I know that there's been It's a it's a balance
because some people simply are not calling in because they
can't leave the house, but stuck together. Obviously those people
(12:00):
have that learned behavior. They're beating up on each other
or they're ones beaten up up in the other one.
One thing we have not spoken about very much on
this show is racial violence, particularly the use of fatal
force by police against black men, and in the case
that we saw with Brianna Taylor women as well. The
most recent murder of a black man by a police
officer to come to light the murder Atlanta of Rachard Brooks.
(12:23):
What's going on? Let's watch this video to the US now.
An explosive bodycam vision of an arrest and subsequent police
shooting which killed a black man in Atlanta has now
been released. Correspondent Amelia Adams has more from Los Angeles
and Amelia, what does the video show? Well, it shows,
Alie what began is a pretty amicable, friendly encounter between
(12:43):
the two Atlanta police officers and twenty seven year old
Richard Brooks. We know that he'd fallen asleep, they say,
in in his car at this drive through. They pulled
him out and they had quite a long chat with him.
It was, as I say, quite friendly. They breathalyzed him,
he failed that. Then when they went to handcuff him,
the mood change. But this new video really give some
context as to how it all unfolded. Take a look.
(13:05):
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah bla
start very again. You've had a few drinks. They see
how many one in half? Like I said, I was
going to the second club I wouldn't live in. I
tell how bad. Let's go because I'm hungry. What kind
of drinks did you have? I'm not SHARE's some cheat orders.
She's had top shell for whatever. Take me home. I'm
(13:26):
ready to go. He had about one and a half drinks.
You don't remember what kind of drinks. I think you've
had too much to drink to be drivers. Put chance
when your back for me. So it was at that
point that you can see they tried to arrest Richard Brooks.
He struggles. He then does grab one of the officers tasers,
points it towards him or running away, and an officer
opens fire. That officer has been sacked. The Atlanta Police
(13:49):
chair chief has resigned, but that has not done anything
to appease protest. As they returned to the scene that
when he's driving for overnight, they set it on fire.
They blocked a major freeway. This interaction will certainly ali
be used in any court proceedings and just in some
breaking news I've just seen this. The d A in
this case is saying that there are three charges that
(14:11):
are relevant and under consideration. This is of course for
the officer who opened fire in Richard Brooks murder, filony
murder or voluntary manslaughter. So you can see how this
incident is absolutely going to spur on this whole racial
uprising that we're seeing in Today is the twentieth day,
there are protests right across the nation. Again, sure, thanks Amelia.
(14:33):
My first question is why do we of these women
have Australian accents? Johnny, that's your first question. I don't
understand this American news. Don't where do we get that
clip from? Who are those women? Those women care about
this issue and they were on Facebook. So in the
midst of all this, I mean, here, I've been watching
(14:54):
and I've been listening, and you're a judicial officer, So
you tell me, what do we say to the police
officers or the police administrators who say adrenaline is rushing?
He got something pointed at him. He didn't know what
to do. It was in the moment. What do we
say to those guys. Don't they have to train better?
(15:15):
Don't they have to be programmed better so that this
ship doesn't happen? Absolutely, And what police but departments don't
do is pay a lot of attention to the emotional
intelligence officers have to have. You give a twenty four
year old dude a gun and you send him out
there without understanding his own uh testosterone, his own issues,
(15:37):
his own own upset. You know, Chelsea Sullenberger landed a
plane in the Hudson and he never raised his voice.
He never got excited. If you pay attention to cockpit recordings.
I listened to those things, and before every crash where
everybody dies, the pilots never raised their voice because they
(16:01):
are trained to become. So don't tell me you can't
do it. It's simply something that we haven't chosen to
do with respect to these officers, about controlling how they
feel in the circumstances in which they are presented. And
that's what we have to do. And we can't say
that it's not doable. We haven't even made that attempt, right,
(16:26):
So that is one of the first things then we
have to do. The second thing we have to do
is really understand the nature of bias. Most biased people
don't think that they are. I sat in front of
a room full of judges. There was like a hundred
of us, and I gave a speech and the first
thing I said was, all of you are racially prejudiced,
(16:47):
talked about you know, I'm not an I justice And
to the extent that you believe that, the more that
you believe that you're not biased, the more biased your
likely to be likely to be. I am biased. You
are biased. But the fact that I acknowledge my biases
allows me to act on it less often. And their
(17:09):
biological reasons for our biases. You know, our brain takes
in information. There's a lot of information to take in,
and one are the things our brain does is generalize.
Is it a threat or not a threat? That's the
first question you're a Magdala asks you. And biologically, people
who look less likely you are are scene as a
(17:31):
threat more often friend or foe, tribe or not. You
have to teach that to people because it's not like
I'm gonna go out and shoot a black guy here today.
It's I'm going out here and I'm assessing a situation
and the color of his skin promotes or inspires and
an emotional response that makes it just that much easier
(17:52):
to pull the trigger because you associate him with criminality. Absolutely.
And so when people's speak about defunding the police, what
does that mean, because it seems to me that the
funds should be focused on retraining police for this exact
kind of ability so that they could land the plane,
(18:14):
so to speak. Absolutely, I don't know what's up with
the defunding the police thing, and I'm not quite sure
what it means. I've looked it up sometimes, and you
know that the structure of the system is wrong, of
the police system is wrong, and I think the structure
of the police system is wrong, But I don't think
that defunding them is the problem. I think, you know,
protecting to serve. You got the bobbies in in England
(18:38):
it has become more of a zero sum situation, police
against the public as opposed to police assisting the public,
and then they make an assessment what you're there, Who
that person is that you're dealing with. And I think
that defunding isn't the issue. That the issue is moving
everything to the front, everything into training, every thing into understanding,
(19:01):
so that because I'm telling you, if I'm home alone
and somebody breaks in, I don't want the police defunded.
But what I don't want is the police to come
in see my husband there and shoot him before he
finds out he belongs there. That has to be instructional.
So let's talk about that you posted on Instagram the
(19:23):
other day, something about perspective. Why is perspective so important
in the discussion about white privilege and the All Black
Lives Matter movement? Perspective is important. I'll go back to
that meeting I had with the judges and what I
told when they got angry, which they did. What I
told them was, when I see a black guy, I
(19:43):
see all six of my sons, my husband, my daddy,
everybody that I grew up with. So there's assessment, there's
a determination has to be made, irrespective of a skin color,
about who he is. So when I see a guy
for the first time in court, I don't see, oh,
this is the first of many I see there, But
for the grace of God goes somebody that I love. Now,
(20:05):
when judges, and most of them were white, Um, in Cleveland,
you know you've got forty common police court judges, most
of the defendants are black, thirty eight of the judges
are white. They don't go home and hang out with
black people. They go home and hang with white people.
So they're understanding and there and and their association with
(20:26):
black people is all as a function of their job. Consequently,
they see black people as criminals. If you do that,
the same thing happens on the police force. The same
thing happens on the police force. So you have to
be able to make sure they understand that the community
that they're in hopefully pull police out of the community
(20:47):
that you're in to allow them to police that community
because there's an understanding there. And if you cannot do that,
you have to make especially sure that the officers that
you do put in there learn to understand stand the
cultural aspects of the community that you deal with. Absolutely
and how I mean, look, we all need to be
(21:09):
I'm gonna call it deep program, but I don't know
that that's the right thing to call it. But I
do I agree that these conversations we are having in
these weeks. I remember, I know so many women white
and black, but probably more white, in my book club,
in the parents of my my kids friends at school,
who would say things I probably said it to, like
(21:29):
I'm color blind, my kids are colorblind. No we're not, No,
we're not. We can't help. But look at people like
you said, who look like us. Differently from people who
don't look like us, that our brains make these judgments
and we have to kind of deep program ourselves having
these conversations. And like you said, which I hope the
(21:50):
judges that you were speaking, you did owning the fact
that no, we can't whitewash this. We gotta look at it,
we gotta discuss it, we got to bring it to
the surface. In this Sunday's Los Angeles Times and need
a char Bria got I'm beaturing these names and and
morela Bermudez interviewed some of the families who have lost
a loved one to police violence, including families of Michael McIntyre,
(22:14):
Oscar Grant the Third, Ryan Twiman, Christopher Murphy, Anthony Vargas.
In the article, the journalists deduced that there are two
truths most of these families agree on one. The pain
never goes away and to every new fatal encounter with
law enforcement makes it raw again. So we have to
say their names, even if we don't always say on
(22:35):
the right way, And we have to keep talking about
this because until we do, it doesn't change. You and
I both know, being practitioners of law, the law may
be the last thing to change. We have to change
our mindset. So let's talk about as a parent, how
do you talk to your sons that are the sons
(22:55):
that look a certain way that if I sat next
to them on the bus, I might move my purse
because they don't look like my son's or ladies crossed
the street when they're walking down an alley, or police
or judges see that's a criminal. How what do you
tell them? As a black mother, I got to explain
a little bit about my background before I answered that question.
(23:15):
I was born in nineteen fifty nine. My father was
born and thank you, my father was there. You go, there,
you go. My father was born in nineteen nineteen and
my mother was born in nineteen thirty. My instruction about
dealing with the police came from them. Their comment to
me was, and I learned this from you know back
(23:37):
in the day. I remember Dr Allen and Dr Preston,
both of them got pulled out of the cars and
beat up because the police didn't like the fact that
they were driving nice cars. That was it, that was all,
and there was nothing really we could do about it.
So my upbringing is your nice, you're polite, and your
compliant and you and you deal with whatever repercussions or
(24:00):
problems afterwards. What I have told my children is this,
you have one obligation in that circumstance, and that obligation
is to me. And the obligation to me that you
have is to return to me upright, an ambulatory whatever
you have to do in order to get there, that's
what you do. I've got one son, you know, there's
always one. What can I refuse to do? What can
(24:23):
I say? What are my rights? I said, you have
no rights to obligation is to me. Now you get home,
I'll take care of it. I had a son that
had a situation with a with a police offer. Somebody,
a white person broke into his apartment. He ran out
and the white check and she Uh. He called the
(24:45):
police this check of stalking and had had attacked him
the week before. Uh. They knew it. She was taken away,
wasn't charged. She broke in. He runs out in his
underwear with the phone. The police come, she fights the police.
They clink her up in his apartment and then she
starts to cry. So then they come out to my
(25:07):
son and said she's looking for her fitment and we're
going to search your apartment, and if we find anything
of hers in your apartment, we're putting you in jail
for theft. He calls me because he has his phone,
and he tells me what to do, and he goes
blah blah blah blah blah. And I said, repeat after me,
no mom, they do not care that you're a judge.
(25:29):
He repeated after me, no, Mom, they do not care
to judge. I took the phone. We resolved the situation.
But I told him under no circle, under no circumstance,
and let him in. Uh. But everybody doesn't have a
mother for a judge. But I like, I think I
would tell my sons to do the same thing, even
though I'm not a judge. No mom, and they don't
care it. Just get home, Just get home. And and
(25:53):
and I said, whatever wrongs, they commit their mind to
resolve and not there's I don't know if that it's
not a popular opinion, because you should have rights out there.
But I don't want to put on a headstone. He
was right, right, This is a very good point. I
think you're talking about the generational component of this conversation.
(26:15):
And you know, Laura and I are the same age.
So I have a slightly different but very similar philosophy
that I was brought up with about compliance and being polite,
et cetera. Today you, I mean, although in the video
with Richard Brooks, he was awfully polite and very nice.
But I think in in some situations there is this
(26:38):
um completely different attitude when confronted by these twenty four
year old, testosterone driven white police officers. And that also
contributes to the problem. Yeah, and and and and please
don't get me wrong, if you have a spicy retort
to a police officer that's done you wrong, that is
(26:59):
not a license to execute you at no point in time.
And sometimes you can't always do that. But if I
train my kids early on, even in the excitement of
the situation, which I think, in God's honest truth, we
don't do well as a human race to to teach
people how to feel and how to control how they feel.
(27:20):
H I mean everybody, everybody, But you know the fact
that you're acting out of out of character when you're drunk,
You acting out a character, and uh, you ought to
and you ought to be able to act out of
character and not die for it. And so I'm not
saying that the people who do that are wrong. I'm
(27:41):
just saying my kids one to five and six got
to make it home right, get home, We'll take care
of it later. And again that should be I think
the case for everybody, and what worries me. There's an
amazing article in I believe it was Yesterday's New York
Times Carvel Wallace, and he says, trying to protect my
(28:02):
black teenagers through protests and pandemic, this is the world
I let be created. They know this, they blame me
for it. They're right. Also, would you like dinner? And
what movies should we watch? He writes about going to
some of the protests with his kids and watching them
and wanting to make sure they're okay, but knowing how
important it is that they're a part of this. And
(28:24):
they're in their late teens, so they want to be
part of this movement. They want to be able to
speak up and how And again, different than getting pulled
over or being you know, detained. This is a bunch
of people in the outside marching with signs, and yet
at the same time definitely could be treating black teens
(28:47):
different than white teens as they are moving people over,
moving barricades, etcetera. And just how to deal with that
as a parent and also what you tell your children. Look,
my parents said the same thing to me, and I'm
a white girl. Be polite, be nice, we'll deal with
it later. My parents were both lawyers. Get home, we'll
deal with later. Were they worried I was going to
(29:07):
get shot? Not so much. But just this is this
is authority. They have a badge or do they have
a right to treat you a certain way? No? But
do we deal with that on the street, especially if
you have a drink or two in you know. This
is the It's Over Easy podcast All's Fair with Laura
Wasser on I Heart Radio. I'm Laura Wasser, And as
(29:29):
I've said before and we'll continue to say, I believe
in access to justice for everyone. We're speaking with Judge
Lynn Toler about the state of the world today in America.
Judge Lynn, what advice can you share with mothers raising
young children today? How do we talk to our children
about what is going on in our world right now?
I think the most important thing that we ought to
(29:50):
do right now is not to be simply reactive. You
have to have uh, these kinds of conversations in these
protests when I mean, what was really trippy about about
George Floyd was that cat knew he was being taked
and that it was so okay with him to kill
this guy in front of everybody. That that, you know,
(30:14):
if that when it's not being filmed, all of that
is standard practice for some kind of even even it's
it's unbelievable that in Atlanta just two days ago or
three days ago it happened again on tape. And I
think what we miss is the response now is important,
(30:34):
but the actions later are even more important. Demanding the
emotional training for people, because that guy in that situation
was thinking about nothing, the one in Atlanta that just
uh that that just killed Mr Brooks Uh. You know,
your emotions take over and all your logic leaves, all
your learning leaves, and so you have to retrain people emotionally.
(30:57):
We also have to discuss with our children, not simply
about their rights, but how to accumulate and assess your rights.
Do you know who your your prosecutors are? Prosecutors are elected,
your judges, and some in some states and not others,
they are elected. Nobody knows who's on the bottom of
that ticket and nobody pays attention, but until we screw up.
(31:18):
But Secretary of State in Georgia, he's in charge of
of of making the voting system right, but he's not
answerable because most people don't know his or her name.
Do you you do? You see where I'm going. It
is an everyday obligation to make sure on the local
level they hear your voice and that you continue to
speak on the on the mundane things in order to
(31:41):
make the real systemic change. Judge Lyn, you make such
a good point, and I just want to make sure
that people listening know that that's really the most important
thing right now is putting pressure on our leaders to
make these fundamental changes with the police departments right whole
like racial conversation that we've been having for hundreds of
(32:02):
years is going to continue. But the most important matter
is that the police need to stop killing black men.
M absolutely and again trickling down, we need to get
out there and vote in November if we want to
see a change. And again that goes all the way
down to city and county elected officials, but to the
very top as well. It is crazy to me that
(32:25):
what is going on in our country is going on,
and we have an election in less than six months,
and I worry that these same people that are marching
are not going to get out there and vote because
they've all got coronavirus. That is not why. Because it's
too it's too much. This doesn't affect me, It doesn't matter.
It's like throwing one piece of trash out the window.
(32:47):
One If everyone throws one piece of trash, we're gonna
have a ship hole on our freeways. Get out there
and vote. Do what you can. Everybody does something different.
You don't want to march because you're afraid you're gonna
get coronavirus. Sit home them and call your officials, send
an email, send in five dollars, figure out a way
to make a change, and and most importantly, keep talking
(33:09):
about it, especially with young people. We need to change
the way we are raising our young people in this
country to be more inclusive and to be less program
to think certain things. Again, we maybe you grew up
on house with all white folks. That's your people. However,
and if all you're watching on TV is cops and
everyone that they're arresting is black, that's what you're gonna
(33:31):
think of black? A criminal looks like that being said,
having the conversations changing your outlook can actually make you.
I love the analogy of the pilots that landed the planes.
Those guys can do it a whole plane of people
and they stay calm and they're talking them through it.
We can all do that. We can all do it.
And I always make a point of telling the story
(33:54):
about voting because people don't believe it matters. Number one,
if you pay it tension everybody since the Supreme Court
said the Southern States don't have to have their voting
laws examined before their past and their germanding mandering down there,
they're taking away voting places in in majority black neighborhoods.
(34:17):
If voting didn't matter, they wouldn't be doing that. That's
number one. Number two. I ran for judge in I
was thirty three years old. Everybody said I had no
business winning. I won on election night in a city
of fifty thousand by one vote one one vote. Now
there were three there were three recounts, and I ended
(34:41):
up winning by six. But if you don't think your
vote counts, the guy that I beat was thirty five
years older and white, and he wouldn't have gone into
the breakout school every year to uh mentor young girls.
He wouldn't have created a chip program to mentor young boys,
but did that because I saw that was when my community.
(35:03):
So when anybody walked up to me and said, hey, Lynn,
I was that one vote? I said, yes you were,
and thank you very much. And everybody is that one vote?
And you got to go into the voting booth believing
that your vote is going to make the difference. You
just gotta yes. Please. I got excited. I'm sorry, it's exciting.
(35:24):
How important it is is it for you? That being
on television for all this time in your robe again
people see a black woman judge. She's a judge. She
did it. She doesn't just play one on TV. She's
a judge. You did that for a long time. I'm
sure there were a myriad of reasons. One of them
had to be young black women, little girls in their
(35:48):
head when they think judge, they don't just think old
white guy or even judge Judy. They think, oh, judge Lynn,
she's a judge. I could grow up and be a judge.
That's very important. Earlier this year, you announced your leaving
divorce court after thirteen years. What's next. I'm not really
really sure. I had plans pre COVID that got put
(36:09):
on the COVID pause with everybody else I am doing.
I am doing a podcast with him Malaya about relationships
and communication, because that I do enjoy that. I've written
a couple of books. My most recent one was Dear
Sonali Let Us to the daughter I never had. I
always wanted to have a little girl. Had six dudes
in the house, and I wanted I have good boys.
(36:31):
I get it. I never get my girl. You can't
dress up my business. How about how about the smells?
Let's talk. Yeah, yes, neither of you have gay sons
because we don't smell. We smell like roses. Well, keep
(36:52):
telling yourself that's Johnny. I also actually want to talk
about your book Making Marriage Work, New rules for an
old institution, because that is a very topical for our show. Book.
Tell us how you guys are been married for so
long and how you make it work. Well, I wrote
that book two years after I stopped hating my husband.
(37:12):
So that was like in your you know, year twenty,
because you're seventeen, eighteen nineteen. If you wanted him, I
would have given him way to any willing woman for
a dollar, and you might have got some change. I
couldn't stand him, and what I had to do to
take my marriage from the mess that it was into
something else was a process, and I thought I would
(37:34):
share that process so other people would have a leg
up in doing it. So give us a tipper. Two,
How did you get over that hump? Number one? Learn
how to have a conversation. And conversations are harder to
have than anybody. And the first thing you need to
do when you learn how to have a conversation is
to make sure you know what you want. People could
always often share how they feel, especially when you're in
(37:54):
the house with your man, but don't just share how
you feel. Sit down and figure out what you want,
why you feel that, and what your partner has to
do with that. And then when you approach your partner,
don't do so as as a B fifty two bomber.
Come in there with an eye towards resolution, not an
eye towards he's got to or she's got to or
they've got to calm me in the moment. You have
(38:16):
to be knowledgeable about what you're doing. And until we
learned how to have an intelligent conversation, and a great
conversation is one with a lot of pauses in it.
We were in trouble, so but that's one tip I
like when you said sometimes I'll wait until his stomach
is full and he's relaxed, then I strike. Even then,
they can usually resolve issues in a matter of minutes.
(38:37):
We raise it, we resolve it. That's a quote, yes,
And and that's where I get his mindset to work
for me. I get his mood and his face when
he's in a place where he's receptive. That's when I
come in, and I come in, I come in light.
Hey baby, I'm not trying to start nothing, but we
need to address what happened. And yesterday I was a
(39:02):
little upset. So here we go. And he knows when
I say I'm not trying to start something, I'm about
to say something negative, right, but but I'm not trying
to have an argument. I'm just asking him for something.
And then I defined my ask in other words, I
make sure I ask him for something specific, not just
do better, right, do this? I love it. Listeners. You know,
(39:25):
Judge Lynn has presided over some of the most compelling
mediations between couples in television history. She's been the one
asking the hard questions for more than thirteen years, and
now it's time to see how you like it. Judge
lynn is a judicial officer and an attorney. I know
you're familiar with form in orogatory, is correct? Indeed? I am.
So we've adapted this tool of discovery for all's fair.
(39:47):
Judge Lynne, do you swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing about the truth. I most certainly do.
Which relationship in your life has had the most profound impact?
My mother? Tell us a little bit. My mother was
what I call an emotional genius. She was a person
that could walk into a room, read the room, and
decide what the mood is the room because she had
(40:07):
a handle on her own emotions, and she taught me
to be a better judge. Can I tell you a
quick story? Yes, okay, I was in court one day.
It wasn't during my first year of my judge that
my mother came in and she was in the gallery
just trying to watch heyon, Well, what's all this education
I paid for? What is this woman doing? So I'm
in there. I got a domestic violence guy. I gave
him what everybody did some judges called the acid rain dance.
(40:28):
I hollered at him about that, and then I sent
him to jail. Mom came back into my chambers afterwards
and said, let me tell you what you did wrong.
She said, that man went to jail thinking about the
bit he hit and that other bitch that sent him
to jail. When he gets out, he's gonna be madder.
What you needed to do? What start where he was?
Talked to him about? What was he upset about? Why
(40:48):
was that? Was? She upset? This is and then you
slowly welcome here's why you're going to jail. And next
time you're you meet this, this is what you do?
Did I did? I change him? And no, but I didn't.
Cree eight another problem. And she taught me how to
speak to people on the bench by understanding them first
and letting them know you understood them, and that way
(41:10):
they start to listen as opposed to fight. What I say, Wow,
profound advice. What was the age difference between your parents?
I know you said your dad was born in a
nineteeneen and mom thirties nineteen nineteen and nineteen thirty. So
whatever eddies Okay, okay, was that first marriage for both
of them? First marriage for her, second marriage for him? Okay,
(41:34):
all right? What's your favorite love song? Love Ballad by LTD?
And Yes, I'm old and I love that, though I've
not heard that's a song on this show yet. Yeah,
Oh I love that. What is the one piece of
advice you'd share with your twenties something your old self?
Stop worrying about it because all the stuff you worry
(41:55):
about didn't happen. Oh the stuff did, but you didn't
worry about the right And which rom com romantic comedy
could you watch over and over again? Best man ah one,
Judge Land, thank you for joining us today and for
sharing your judgment and your voice about the seminal moment
(42:17):
in our country's history. Please tell people where they can
find you online, your books, and also where people can
go to support the fight against domestic violence. Give us
some handles, Give us some hand to Bloom three six
b l O O M three six. That is the
organization that I belong to and I fight for to
to uproot domestic violence before it starts. Um. My books
(42:38):
are all on Amazon and Audible. My latest book is
Dear Sonali Letters to the daughter I didn't I never had.
You can find me at Real Judge Lynn on Facebook, Instagram,
and Twitter. Thank you for being with us today. Your
wisdom and your unbelievable heart and wit make me so happy.
I'm so happy to be able to share this with
our all s fair listeners. Be well, stay healthy, and
(43:02):
stay wise. You be well as well, and have a
wonderful day. Thank you, thank you so much, thank you.
Timing is everything and now is the time for change.
I most heartily agree. And to all of you out
there who have an opinion about what you heard today,
please click to rate us at Apple Podcast and tell
us what you think. In the name of justice and
(43:24):
peace and relationships. Thanks for listening. Let's chat again next week.
Hi there. It's me Laura Wasser, the divorce attorney and
the founder of It's over Easy, the online divorce Service.
I've been practicing family law for over twenty years and
I've worked on thousands of divorces, shepherding people through what
may be one of the most terrifying times in their lives.
Along the way, I often have to remind people to
(00:21):
lower their expectations when dealing with matters of the heart.
Rules simply don't apply. Because all's fair in love and war.
So welcome to the All's Fair Podcasts. Fasten your seatbelt
and let's go. Hi there, everyone, I'm Laura Wasser, I'm
Johnny Rains, and this is the It's over Easy podcast
All's Fair. Though my day job is practicing family law
(00:43):
and managing my family law firm. Since we launched It's
over Easy, the online Divorce Service and we started podcasting,
one of the things I'm most satisfied with is being
able to educate people about their relationships. Family law provides
the opportunity to learn so much about so many and
because of the nature of the attorney client relationship in
family law, were given a window into the psyche and
(01:05):
soul of my clients, which is more intimate and more
informative than one might immediately imagine. It starts with the surface,
what is this person's story? What do they do for
a living with their sexual orientation, their proclivities, their race,
their religion, their culture, their child rearing beliefs. Well at
that share the mic now event you wouldn't divorce attorney
(01:26):
Kimberly A Cook did on Instagram last week. You spoke
about diversity and family law. You both mentioned that these
tactics helped to make stronger connections with your clients, which
I thought was interesting. Yeah, Kimberly is awesome. She asked
me to do that share the mic, which was a
really cool exercise. Again, keeping these conversations going. By the way,
Kimberly at Grown Girl Divorce on Insta. She's a partner
(01:48):
at Schiller, Dukanto and Fleck LLP in Chicago. She's an
amazing family law attorney in Illinois and I highly recommend her.
I want to give her a shout out, Hey, grown
Girl Divorce. I've had science who are entertainers, athletes, executives, academics, homemakers, writers, directors,
financial professionals, healthcare providers and plenty of others, and I
(02:08):
make a point to learn what they do and what
they believe, so I can understand what motivates them and
where they're coming from. Oh if only there were more lawyers,
at least ones with yours and Kimberly's thirst for understanding
what a world this would be. But change does seem
to be in the air. In the news almost every
day this week, there are stories about regular people trying
(02:29):
to put themselves in other people's shoes. According to a
Pew Research study done June four through the tenth Americans
are talking to family and friends about race and racial equality.
Of those surveyed, including majorities across racial and ethnic groups,
say they have done so in the last month, and
thirty seven percent of those who use social networking sites
say they have posted or shared content related to ethnicity
(02:52):
or ethnic equality on these sites during this period. For example,
in case some of you might not be on TikTok,
this was shared May thirty one by an interracial couple
dancers Alison Holker and Stephen twitch Boss. In the video,
the couple take the check your Privileged challenge while their
four year old son sits on twitches lap. Laura and
I are going to check our privilege and play along
(03:14):
with each of our very own ten fingers. I think
you're gonna win this one, Laura, check your privileged edition.
Put a finger down. If you have been called a
racial slur, put a finger down. If you've been followed
in a store unnecessarily, put a finger down. If someone
has crossed the street to avoid passing you, put a
finger down. If you've had someone clenched their purse in
(03:34):
an elevator with you, put a finger down. If you've
hacked on one step off of an elevator to keep
from writing with you, put a finger down. If you've
been accused of not being able to afford something expensive,
put a finger down. If you have had fear in
your heart when being stopped by the police, put a
finger down. If you have never been given a pass
on a citation that you deserved, put a finger down.
(03:56):
If you have been stopped or detained by police for
no valid reason, put her finger down. If you have
been bullied solely because of your race, put a finger down.
If you have been denied service solely because of the
color of your skin, put a finger down. If you've
ever had to teach your child, how not to get
killed by the police. Any finger's left. That's privilege. I
(04:16):
saw it originally, I think because Twitch and Alison I
are on Ellen and so I think I saw it
on her Instagram feed. So I saw it on May
thirty first, when I first came out. And it really
is when you see the two of them and they're
sitting there. Once you get over at the length of
her nails, you realize that it really is, like it's crazy,
and and they're married, they sleep together every night. Like
(04:39):
the differences in their experiences really is compelling and provocative.
And that's what this whole it makes you think. It's
making us talk about it. I think it's important in
America right now. On huff Post, Brittany Wong, who I
know I've worked with before. She's the senior lifestyle reporter,
wrote a story about the Twitch and al listen white
(05:01):
privilege TikTok, interracial couples share their experiences trying to educate
and inform white peers about the black experience in America,
including what's being called white debt, the idea that the
American economy as we know it was built on slavery,
as the new York Times Stunning sixteen nineteen podcast broke
down last year black bodies were actually used as full
(05:22):
or partial collateral for land by slave owners. Well, speaking
of interracial couples, and some good news, Um, Loving Day
just passed. So happy belated Loving Day, which is the
day that's dedicated to the couple, the married couple responsible
for the landmark civil rights decision of the U. S.
Supreme Court um in nineteen sixty four. To no, you
(05:49):
think i'd know that that's the year I was born. Um,
But but yes they are. They're the couple behind the
landmark civil rights decision um that it enabled any couple
any race to marry without it being illegal. And now
June twelve is known as Loving Day, which is just
so appropriate because their names. If you haven't seen it,
(06:09):
two thousand and sixteen, there was the movie called Loving
which starred Ruth Negga and Joel Edgerton, and it was
so good. I mean it really it breaks it down.
It's entertaining. I don't even think I was aware of that.
I mean, obviously I was aware of the fact that
in nine seven this had happened, that interracial marriages became legal.
But their story and just like I said, the fact
(06:31):
that their name was The Lovings is amazing. It's actually
streaming this month on HBO, so people check it out.
In our conversation last week with Jody Patterson, we spoke
about the All Black Lives Matter movement, which includes trans
boys and girls, and how to raise children to be activists.
And the thing that just really stayed with me from
(06:51):
our Jody episode was how she has a formula of
dose and environment and how talking to kids in a
safe environment with small doses of what they may be
able to expect going forward kind of gives them the immunity.
Like if you are going to give somebody a flu shot,
you give them a little bit of the flu. So
(07:12):
when you're at a family dinner, when you're at a
safe place, a picnic um, you know, sitting with the
family and speaking about something, bring some of these things up,
introduced them into the conversation. So they get this dose
in this environment and they can kind of process, ask questions,
think about it. Then in whenever, weeks, months, years, something
(07:34):
actually happens that would be the event of which you're
speaking or of which is is the topic of the
conversation they've had that little bit they've had, that little
flu shot that I can't stop thinking about. I've incorporated
that into the conversations at meal time with with my
kids and Johnny and I intend to keep this conversation
going because these relationships are as fascinating, if not more
(07:59):
fascinating than some of the things we generally speak about
on All's Fair, breakups and makeups and stuff like this.
Um it's resonating currently and today we're going to speak
about the relationship between the police and black men, specifically
about the systemic racism that remains in our criminal justice
system and the continued use of fatal force that seldom
(08:20):
results in repercussions for the officers involved. Joining us to
share her judgments on the topic is someone many of
you know from her thirteen years on the bench of
the most famous syndicated court in the country, the one
on TV. She's been nominated for an Emmy for her
work on television, and she's beloved by millions. She's also
a Harvard graduate who got her law degree at the
University of Pennsylvania Law School. At the age of thirty three,
(08:43):
she was elected judge of the Cleveland Heights Municipal Court
where she served for eight years prior to captivating America
on the Venerable Courtroom show Divorce Court. She's the author
of three books and the mother of two sons and
four stepsons. Welcome to All's Fair, Judge Lynn Toler hid Hi,
how are you, Laura? I'm very well. Thank you for
(09:03):
joining us. This is so topical and I'm so thrilled
to have you here. Let's just speak for a moment
about you personally in my world, and I guess yours too,
to a certain extent, because the divorce court. Being married
for thirty three years, it's quite an accomplishment. Yes, yes
it is. And nobody's gotten shot or anything. I mean,
it's it's, it's it's it's always a ride. It's never easy,
(09:27):
but uh, it's worth the effort. Yeah. People say it's
the hardest job you'll ever do. I thought that was parenthood.
But again, I I've never been married more than a minute,
so parenthood is clearly the hardest job you will ever do.
Sometimes parenthood helps you stay in love with your partner
because it's you against them, right, So totally, yes, you
(09:49):
gotta you in the army. So you you and Eric
you got married in nine, and you guys have two
sons together, but four stepsons that he had before you
have four stepsones. So there's six boys all together, correct
correct ages. The oldest is fifty okay, and the baby
(10:10):
just turned okay. So let's talk a little bit well first,
let's talk a little bit a bit more about you.
So in two thousand two, you've got the Humanitarian of
the Year Award by the Cleveland Domestic Violence Center. We
do a lot of discussion on the show and in
my work with domestic violence, so that really puts it
in perspective, I think. And then in two thousand nine
(10:31):
you were given the Voice of Freedom Award, where you
were honored to join the ranks of previous recipients like
Vice President Al Gore and Colin Powell. Now you went
to become the host of Divorce Court in two thousand six,
and then you did a lot of other projects during
that time, Decision House, you did contributions to and PR
(10:52):
You are co executive producer of Wedlock or Deadlock, and
you've done a ton of stuff with Bloom three six.
Tell us about that. Bloom three sixty is in an
organization designed to help eliminate domestic violence, not by responding
to it, but trying to prevent it before it occurs,
by going into schools with junior high schools and high
(11:13):
schools to teach kids, women and men, boys and girls
about healthy relationships, what it is to have a healthy relationship,
so potential victims don't become victimizers. And deeper still, so
potential perpetrators don't become perpetrators because that's a learned behavior
and a response to things that we don't often recognize.
(11:36):
You can't just react, you have to be proactive. Okay,
So again, Johnny and I speak a lot about domestic
violence on the show. We've seen a rise in it
in Los Angeles. Superior Courts is the only thing that
we're open for right now is the DV stuff, and
I know that there's been It's a it's a balance
because some people simply are not calling in because they
can't leave the house, but stuck together. Obviously those people
(12:00):
have that learned behavior. They're beating up on each other
or they're ones beaten up up in the other one.
One thing we have not spoken about very much on
this show is racial violence, particularly the use of fatal
force by police against black men, and in the case
that we saw with Brianna Taylor women as well. The
most recent murder of a black man by a police
officer to come to light the murder Atlanta of Rachard Brooks.
(12:23):
What's going on? Let's watch this video to the US now.
An explosive bodycam vision of an arrest and subsequent police
shooting which killed a black man in Atlanta has now
been released. Correspondent Amelia Adams has more from Los Angeles
and Amelia, what does the video show? Well, it shows,
Alie what began is a pretty amicable, friendly encounter between
(12:43):
the two Atlanta police officers and twenty seven year old
Richard Brooks. We know that he'd fallen asleep, they say,
in in his car at this drive through. They pulled
him out and they had quite a long chat with him.
It was, as I say, quite friendly. They breathalyzed him,
he failed that. Then when they went to handcuff him,
the mood change. But this new video really give some
context as to how it all unfolded. Take a look.
(13:05):
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah bla
start very again. You've had a few drinks. They see
how many one in half? Like I said, I was
going to the second club I wouldn't live in. I
tell how bad. Let's go because I'm hungry. What kind
of drinks did you have? I'm not SHARE's some cheat orders.
She's had top shell for whatever. Take me home. I'm
(13:26):
ready to go. He had about one and a half drinks.
You don't remember what kind of drinks. I think you've
had too much to drink to be drivers. Put chance
when your back for me. So it was at that
point that you can see they tried to arrest Richard Brooks.
He struggles. He then does grab one of the officers tasers,
points it towards him or running away, and an officer
opens fire. That officer has been sacked. The Atlanta Police
(13:49):
chair chief has resigned, but that has not done anything
to appease protest. As they returned to the scene that
when he's driving for overnight, they set it on fire.
They blocked a major freeway. This interaction will certainly ali
be used in any court proceedings and just in some
breaking news I've just seen this. The d A in
this case is saying that there are three charges that
(14:11):
are relevant and under consideration. This is of course for
the officer who opened fire in Richard Brooks murder, filony
murder or voluntary manslaughter. So you can see how this
incident is absolutely going to spur on this whole racial
uprising that we're seeing in Today is the twentieth day,
there are protests right across the nation. Again, sure, thanks Amelia.
(14:33):
My first question is why do we of these women
have Australian accents? Johnny, that's your first question. I don't
understand this American news. Don't where do we get that
clip from? Who are those women? Those women care about
this issue and they were on Facebook. So in the
midst of all this, I mean, here, I've been watching
(14:54):
and I've been listening, and you're a judicial officer, So
you tell me, what do we say to the police
officers or the police administrators who say adrenaline is rushing?
He got something pointed at him. He didn't know what
to do. It was in the moment. What do we
say to those guys. Don't they have to train better?
(15:15):
Don't they have to be programmed better so that this
ship doesn't happen? Absolutely, And what police but departments don't
do is pay a lot of attention to the emotional
intelligence officers have to have. You give a twenty four
year old dude a gun and you send him out
there without understanding his own uh testosterone, his own issues,
(15:37):
his own own upset. You know, Chelsea Sullenberger landed a
plane in the Hudson and he never raised his voice.
He never got excited. If you pay attention to cockpit recordings.
I listened to those things, and before every crash where
everybody dies, the pilots never raised their voice because they
(16:01):
are trained to become. So don't tell me you can't
do it. It's simply something that we haven't chosen to
do with respect to these officers, about controlling how they
feel in the circumstances in which they are presented. And
that's what we have to do. And we can't say
that it's not doable. We haven't even made that attempt, right,
(16:26):
So that is one of the first things then we
have to do. The second thing we have to do
is really understand the nature of bias. Most biased people
don't think that they are. I sat in front of
a room full of judges. There was like a hundred
of us, and I gave a speech and the first
thing I said was, all of you are racially prejudiced,
(16:47):
talked about you know, I'm not an I justice And
to the extent that you believe that, the more that
you believe that you're not biased, the more biased your
likely to be likely to be. I am biased. You
are biased. But the fact that I acknowledge my biases
allows me to act on it less often. And their
(17:09):
biological reasons for our biases. You know, our brain takes
in information. There's a lot of information to take in,
and one are the things our brain does is generalize.
Is it a threat or not a threat? That's the
first question you're a Magdala asks you. And biologically, people
who look less likely you are are scene as a
(17:31):
threat more often friend or foe, tribe or not. You
have to teach that to people because it's not like
I'm gonna go out and shoot a black guy here today.
It's I'm going out here and I'm assessing a situation
and the color of his skin promotes or inspires and
an emotional response that makes it just that much easier
(17:52):
to pull the trigger because you associate him with criminality. Absolutely.
And so when people's speak about defunding the police, what
does that mean, because it seems to me that the
funds should be focused on retraining police for this exact
kind of ability so that they could land the plane,
(18:14):
so to speak. Absolutely, I don't know what's up with
the defunding the police thing, and I'm not quite sure
what it means. I've looked it up sometimes, and you
know that the structure of the system is wrong, of
the police system is wrong, and I think the structure
of the police system is wrong, But I don't think
that defunding them is the problem. I think, you know,
protecting to serve. You got the bobbies in in England
(18:38):
it has become more of a zero sum situation, police
against the public as opposed to police assisting the public,
and then they make an assessment what you're there, Who
that person is that you're dealing with. And I think
that defunding isn't the issue. That the issue is moving
everything to the front, everything into training, every thing into understanding,
(19:01):
so that because I'm telling you, if I'm home alone
and somebody breaks in, I don't want the police defunded.
But what I don't want is the police to come
in see my husband there and shoot him before he
finds out he belongs there. That has to be instructional.
So let's talk about that you posted on Instagram the
(19:23):
other day, something about perspective. Why is perspective so important
in the discussion about white privilege and the All Black
Lives Matter movement? Perspective is important. I'll go back to
that meeting I had with the judges and what I
told when they got angry, which they did. What I
told them was, when I see a black guy, I
(19:43):
see all six of my sons, my husband, my daddy,
everybody that I grew up with. So there's assessment, there's
a determination has to be made, irrespective of a skin color,
about who he is. So when I see a guy
for the first time in court, I don't see, oh,
this is the first of many I see there, But
for the grace of God goes somebody that I love. Now,
(20:05):
when judges, and most of them were white, Um, in Cleveland,
you know you've got forty common police court judges, most
of the defendants are black, thirty eight of the judges
are white. They don't go home and hang out with
black people. They go home and hang with white people.
So they're understanding and there and and their association with
(20:26):
black people is all as a function of their job. Consequently,
they see black people as criminals. If you do that,
the same thing happens on the police force. The same
thing happens on the police force. So you have to
be able to make sure they understand that the community
that they're in hopefully pull police out of the community
(20:47):
that you're in to allow them to police that community
because there's an understanding there. And if you cannot do that,
you have to make especially sure that the officers that
you do put in there learn to understand stand the
cultural aspects of the community that you deal with. Absolutely
and how I mean, look, we all need to be
(21:09):
I'm gonna call it deep program, but I don't know
that that's the right thing to call it. But I
do I agree that these conversations we are having in
these weeks. I remember, I know so many women white
and black, but probably more white, in my book club,
in the parents of my my kids friends at school,
who would say things I probably said it to, like
(21:29):
I'm color blind, my kids are colorblind. No we're not, No,
we're not. We can't help. But look at people like
you said, who look like us. Differently from people who
don't look like us, that our brains make these judgments
and we have to kind of deep program ourselves having
these conversations. And like you said, which I hope the
(21:50):
judges that you were speaking, you did owning the fact
that no, we can't whitewash this. We gotta look at it,
we gotta discuss it, we got to bring it to
the surface. In this Sunday's Los Angeles Times and need
a char Bria got I'm beaturing these names and and
morela Bermudez interviewed some of the families who have lost
a loved one to police violence, including families of Michael McIntyre,
(22:14):
Oscar Grant the Third, Ryan Twiman, Christopher Murphy, Anthony Vargas.
In the article, the journalists deduced that there are two
truths most of these families agree on one. The pain
never goes away and to every new fatal encounter with
law enforcement makes it raw again. So we have to
say their names, even if we don't always say on
(22:35):
the right way, And we have to keep talking about
this because until we do, it doesn't change. You and
I both know, being practitioners of law, the law may
be the last thing to change. We have to change
our mindset. So let's talk about as a parent, how
do you talk to your sons that are the sons
(22:55):
that look a certain way that if I sat next
to them on the bus, I might move my purse
because they don't look like my son's or ladies crossed
the street when they're walking down an alley, or police
or judges see that's a criminal. How what do you
tell them? As a black mother, I got to explain
a little bit about my background before I answered that question.
(23:15):
I was born in nineteen fifty nine. My father was
born and thank you, my father was there. You go, there,
you go. My father was born in nineteen nineteen and
my mother was born in nineteen thirty. My instruction about
dealing with the police came from them. Their comment to
me was, and I learned this from you know back
(23:37):
in the day. I remember Dr Allen and Dr Preston,
both of them got pulled out of the cars and
beat up because the police didn't like the fact that
they were driving nice cars. That was it, that was all,
and there was nothing really we could do about it.
So my upbringing is your nice, you're polite, and your
compliant and you and you deal with whatever repercussions or
(24:00):
problems afterwards. What I have told my children is this,
you have one obligation in that circumstance, and that obligation
is to me. And the obligation to me that you
have is to return to me upright, an ambulatory whatever
you have to do in order to get there, that's
what you do. I've got one son, you know, there's
always one. What can I refuse to do? What can
(24:23):
I say? What are my rights? I said, you have
no rights to obligation is to me. Now you get home,
I'll take care of it. I had a son that
had a situation with a with a police offer. Somebody,
a white person broke into his apartment. He ran out
and the white check and she Uh. He called the
(24:45):
police this check of stalking and had had attacked him
the week before. Uh. They knew it. She was taken away,
wasn't charged. She broke in. He runs out in his
underwear with the phone. The police come, she fights the police.
They clink her up in his apartment and then she
starts to cry. So then they come out to my
(25:07):
son and said she's looking for her fitment and we're
going to search your apartment, and if we find anything
of hers in your apartment, we're putting you in jail
for theft. He calls me because he has his phone,
and he tells me what to do, and he goes
blah blah blah blah blah. And I said, repeat after me,
no mom, they do not care that you're a judge.
(25:29):
He repeated after me, no, Mom, they do not care
to judge. I took the phone. We resolved the situation.
But I told him under no circle, under no circumstance,
and let him in. Uh. But everybody doesn't have a
mother for a judge. But I like, I think I
would tell my sons to do the same thing, even
though I'm not a judge. No mom, and they don't
care it. Just get home, Just get home. And and
(25:53):
and I said, whatever wrongs, they commit their mind to
resolve and not there's I don't know if that it's
not a popular opinion, because you should have rights out there.
But I don't want to put on a headstone. He
was right, right, This is a very good point. I
think you're talking about the generational component of this conversation.
(26:15):
And you know, Laura and I are the same age.
So I have a slightly different but very similar philosophy
that I was brought up with about compliance and being polite,
et cetera. Today you, I mean, although in the video
with Richard Brooks, he was awfully polite and very nice.
But I think in in some situations there is this
(26:38):
um completely different attitude when confronted by these twenty four
year old, testosterone driven white police officers. And that also
contributes to the problem. Yeah, and and and and please
don't get me wrong, if you have a spicy retort
to a police officer that's done you wrong, that is
(26:59):
not a license to execute you at no point in time.
And sometimes you can't always do that. But if I
train my kids early on, even in the excitement of
the situation, which I think, in God's honest truth, we
don't do well as a human race to to teach
people how to feel and how to control how they feel.
(27:20):
H I mean everybody, everybody, But you know the fact
that you're acting out of out of character when you're drunk,
You acting out a character, and uh, you ought to
and you ought to be able to act out of
character and not die for it. And so I'm not
saying that the people who do that are wrong. I'm
(27:41):
just saying my kids one to five and six got
to make it home right, get home, We'll take care
of it later. And again that should be I think
the case for everybody, and what worries me. There's an
amazing article in I believe it was Yesterday's New York
Times Carvel Wallace, and he says, trying to protect my
(28:02):
black teenagers through protests and pandemic, this is the world
I let be created. They know this, they blame me
for it. They're right. Also, would you like dinner? And
what movies should we watch? He writes about going to
some of the protests with his kids and watching them
and wanting to make sure they're okay, but knowing how
important it is that they're a part of this. And
(28:24):
they're in their late teens, so they want to be
part of this movement. They want to be able to
speak up and how And again, different than getting pulled
over or being you know, detained. This is a bunch
of people in the outside marching with signs, and yet
at the same time definitely could be treating black teens
(28:47):
different than white teens as they are moving people over,
moving barricades, etcetera. And just how to deal with that
as a parent and also what you tell your children. Look,
my parents said the same thing to me, and I'm
a white girl. Be polite, be nice, we'll deal with
it later. My parents were both lawyers. Get home, we'll
deal with later. Were they worried I was going to
(29:07):
get shot? Not so much. But just this is this
is authority. They have a badge or do they have
a right to treat you a certain way? No? But
do we deal with that on the street, especially if
you have a drink or two in you know. This
is the It's Over Easy podcast All's Fair with Laura
Wasser on I Heart Radio. I'm Laura Wasser, And as
(29:29):
I've said before and we'll continue to say, I believe
in access to justice for everyone. We're speaking with Judge
Lynn Toler about the state of the world today in America.
Judge Lynn, what advice can you share with mothers raising
young children today? How do we talk to our children
about what is going on in our world right now?
I think the most important thing that we ought to
(29:50):
do right now is not to be simply reactive. You
have to have uh, these kinds of conversations in these
protests when I mean, what was really trippy about about
George Floyd was that cat knew he was being taked
and that it was so okay with him to kill
this guy in front of everybody. That that, you know,
(30:14):
if that when it's not being filmed, all of that
is standard practice for some kind of even even it's
it's unbelievable that in Atlanta just two days ago or
three days ago it happened again on tape. And I
think what we miss is the response now is important,
(30:34):
but the actions later are even more important. Demanding the
emotional training for people, because that guy in that situation
was thinking about nothing, the one in Atlanta that just
uh that that just killed Mr Brooks Uh. You know,
your emotions take over and all your logic leaves, all
your learning leaves, and so you have to retrain people emotionally.
(30:57):
We also have to discuss with our children, not simply
about their rights, but how to accumulate and assess your rights.
Do you know who your your prosecutors are? Prosecutors are elected,
your judges, and some in some states and not others,
they are elected. Nobody knows who's on the bottom of
that ticket and nobody pays attention, but until we screw up.
(31:18):
But Secretary of State in Georgia, he's in charge of
of of making the voting system right, but he's not
answerable because most people don't know his or her name.
Do you you do? You see where I'm going. It
is an everyday obligation to make sure on the local
level they hear your voice and that you continue to
speak on the on the mundane things in order to
(31:41):
make the real systemic change. Judge Lyn, you make such
a good point, and I just want to make sure
that people listening know that that's really the most important
thing right now is putting pressure on our leaders to
make these fundamental changes with the police departments right whole
like racial conversation that we've been having for hundreds of
(32:02):
years is going to continue. But the most important matter
is that the police need to stop killing black men.
M absolutely and again trickling down, we need to get
out there and vote in November if we want to
see a change. And again that goes all the way
down to city and county elected officials, but to the
very top as well. It is crazy to me that
(32:25):
what is going on in our country is going on,
and we have an election in less than six months,
and I worry that these same people that are marching
are not going to get out there and vote because
they've all got coronavirus. That is not why. Because it's
too it's too much. This doesn't affect me, It doesn't matter.
It's like throwing one piece of trash out the window.
(32:47):
One If everyone throws one piece of trash, we're gonna
have a ship hole on our freeways. Get out there
and vote. Do what you can. Everybody does something different.
You don't want to march because you're afraid you're gonna
get coronavirus. Sit home them and call your officials, send
an email, send in five dollars, figure out a way
to make a change, and and most importantly, keep talking
(33:09):
about it, especially with young people. We need to change
the way we are raising our young people in this
country to be more inclusive and to be less program
to think certain things. Again, we maybe you grew up
on house with all white folks. That's your people. However,
and if all you're watching on TV is cops and
everyone that they're arresting is black, that's what you're gonna
(33:31):
think of black? A criminal looks like that being said,
having the conversations changing your outlook can actually make you.
I love the analogy of the pilots that landed the planes.
Those guys can do it a whole plane of people
and they stay calm and they're talking them through it.
We can all do that. We can all do it.
And I always make a point of telling the story
(33:54):
about voting because people don't believe it matters. Number one,
if you pay it tension everybody since the Supreme Court
said the Southern States don't have to have their voting
laws examined before their past and their germanding mandering down there,
they're taking away voting places in in majority black neighborhoods.
(34:17):
If voting didn't matter, they wouldn't be doing that. That's
number one. Number two. I ran for judge in I
was thirty three years old. Everybody said I had no
business winning. I won on election night in a city
of fifty thousand by one vote one one vote. Now
there were three there were three recounts, and I ended
(34:41):
up winning by six. But if you don't think your
vote counts, the guy that I beat was thirty five
years older and white, and he wouldn't have gone into
the breakout school every year to uh mentor young girls.
He wouldn't have created a chip program to mentor young boys,
but did that because I saw that was when my community.
(35:03):
So when anybody walked up to me and said, hey, Lynn,
I was that one vote? I said, yes you were,
and thank you very much. And everybody is that one vote?
And you got to go into the voting booth believing
that your vote is going to make the difference. You
just gotta yes. Please. I got excited. I'm sorry, it's exciting.
(35:24):
How important it is is it for you? That being
on television for all this time in your robe again
people see a black woman judge. She's a judge. She
did it. She doesn't just play one on TV. She's
a judge. You did that for a long time. I'm
sure there were a myriad of reasons. One of them
had to be young black women, little girls in their
(35:48):
head when they think judge, they don't just think old
white guy or even judge Judy. They think, oh, judge Lynn,
she's a judge. I could grow up and be a judge.
That's very important. Earlier this year, you announced your leaving
divorce court after thirteen years. What's next. I'm not really
really sure. I had plans pre COVID that got put
(36:09):
on the COVID pause with everybody else I am doing.
I am doing a podcast with him Malaya about relationships
and communication, because that I do enjoy that. I've written
a couple of books. My most recent one was Dear
Sonali Let Us to the daughter I never had. I
always wanted to have a little girl. Had six dudes
in the house, and I wanted I have good boys.
(36:31):
I get it. I never get my girl. You can't
dress up my business. How about how about the smells?
Let's talk. Yeah, yes, neither of you have gay sons
because we don't smell. We smell like roses. Well, keep
(36:52):
telling yourself that's Johnny. I also actually want to talk
about your book Making Marriage Work, New rules for an
old institution, because that is a very topical for our show. Book.
Tell us how you guys are been married for so
long and how you make it work. Well, I wrote
that book two years after I stopped hating my husband.
(37:12):
So that was like in your you know, year twenty,
because you're seventeen, eighteen nineteen. If you wanted him, I
would have given him way to any willing woman for
a dollar, and you might have got some change. I
couldn't stand him, and what I had to do to
take my marriage from the mess that it was into
something else was a process, and I thought I would
(37:34):
share that process so other people would have a leg
up in doing it. So give us a tipper. Two,
How did you get over that hump? Number one? Learn
how to have a conversation. And conversations are harder to
have than anybody. And the first thing you need to
do when you learn how to have a conversation is
to make sure you know what you want. People could
always often share how they feel, especially when you're in
(37:54):
the house with your man, but don't just share how
you feel. Sit down and figure out what you want,
why you feel that, and what your partner has to
do with that. And then when you approach your partner,
don't do so as as a B fifty two bomber.
Come in there with an eye towards resolution, not an
eye towards he's got to or she's got to or
they've got to calm me in the moment. You have
(38:16):
to be knowledgeable about what you're doing. And until we
learned how to have an intelligent conversation, and a great
conversation is one with a lot of pauses in it.
We were in trouble, so but that's one tip I
like when you said sometimes I'll wait until his stomach
is full and he's relaxed, then I strike. Even then,
they can usually resolve issues in a matter of minutes.
(38:37):
We raise it, we resolve it. That's a quote, yes,
And and that's where I get his mindset to work
for me. I get his mood and his face when
he's in a place where he's receptive. That's when I
come in, and I come in, I come in light.
Hey baby, I'm not trying to start nothing, but we
need to address what happened. And yesterday I was a
(39:02):
little upset. So here we go. And he knows when
I say I'm not trying to start something, I'm about
to say something negative, right, but but I'm not trying
to have an argument. I'm just asking him for something.
And then I defined my ask in other words, I
make sure I ask him for something specific, not just
do better, right, do this? I love it. Listeners. You know,
(39:25):
Judge Lynn has presided over some of the most compelling
mediations between couples in television history. She's been the one
asking the hard questions for more than thirteen years, and
now it's time to see how you like it. Judge
lynn is a judicial officer and an attorney. I know
you're familiar with form in orogatory, is correct? Indeed? I am.
So we've adapted this tool of discovery for all's fair.
(39:47):
Judge Lynne, do you swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing about the truth. I most certainly do.
Which relationship in your life has had the most profound impact?
My mother? Tell us a little bit. My mother was
what I call an emotional genius. She was a person
that could walk into a room, read the room, and
decide what the mood is the room because she had
(40:07):
a handle on her own emotions, and she taught me
to be a better judge. Can I tell you a
quick story? Yes, okay, I was in court one day.
It wasn't during my first year of my judge that
my mother came in and she was in the gallery
just trying to watch heyon, Well, what's all this education
I paid for? What is this woman doing? So I'm
in there. I got a domestic violence guy. I gave
him what everybody did some judges called the acid rain dance.
(40:28):
I hollered at him about that, and then I sent
him to jail. Mom came back into my chambers afterwards
and said, let me tell you what you did wrong.
She said, that man went to jail thinking about the
bit he hit and that other bitch that sent him
to jail. When he gets out, he's gonna be madder.
What you needed to do? What start where he was?
Talked to him about? What was he upset about? Why
(40:48):
was that? Was? She upset? This is and then you
slowly welcome here's why you're going to jail. And next
time you're you meet this, this is what you do?
Did I did? I change him? And no, but I didn't.
Cree eight another problem. And she taught me how to
speak to people on the bench by understanding them first
and letting them know you understood them, and that way
(41:10):
they start to listen as opposed to fight. What I say, Wow,
profound advice. What was the age difference between your parents?
I know you said your dad was born in a
nineteeneen and mom thirties nineteen nineteen and nineteen thirty. So
whatever eddies Okay, okay, was that first marriage for both
of them? First marriage for her, second marriage for him? Okay,
(41:34):
all right? What's your favorite love song? Love Ballad by LTD?
And Yes, I'm old and I love that, though I've
not heard that's a song on this show yet. Yeah,
Oh I love that. What is the one piece of
advice you'd share with your twenties something your old self?
Stop worrying about it because all the stuff you worry
(41:55):
about didn't happen. Oh the stuff did, but you didn't
worry about the right And which rom com romantic comedy
could you watch over and over again? Best man ah one,
Judge Land, thank you for joining us today and for
sharing your judgment and your voice about the seminal moment
(42:17):
in our country's history. Please tell people where they can
find you online, your books, and also where people can
go to support the fight against domestic violence. Give us
some handles, Give us some hand to Bloom three six
b l O O M three six. That is the
organization that I belong to and I fight for to
to uproot domestic violence before it starts. Um. My books
(42:38):
are all on Amazon and Audible. My latest book is
Dear Sonali Letters to the daughter I didn't I never had.
You can find me at Real Judge Lynn on Facebook, Instagram,
and Twitter. Thank you for being with us today. Your
wisdom and your unbelievable heart and wit make me so happy.
I'm so happy to be able to share this with
our all s fair listeners. Be well, stay healthy, and
(43:02):
stay wise. You be well as well, and have a
wonderful day. Thank you, thank you so much, thank you.
Timing is everything and now is the time for change.
I most heartily agree. And to all of you out
there who have an opinion about what you heard today,
please click to rate us at Apple Podcast and tell
us what you think. In the name of justice and
(43:24):
peace and relationships. Thanks for listening. Let's chat again next week.
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The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.