May 5, 2023 • 23 mins
Amazing Wildlife makes its way to the Amazonia Conservation Hub to highlight the longest venomous snake in the Americas, and the third-longest venomous snake on the planet: the bushmaster! Hosts Rick and Marco are joined by Brett Baldwin, associate curator of herpetology and ichthyology at the San Diego Zoo, to discuss their diet, how they capture prey, and the observation methods used to collect information about them. We also discover that although many people may be scared of venomous animals, their venom may hold secrets for medical advancements that could end up helping a lot of humans.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
What is the world? Marco went?
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of
wildlife from around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts.
This podcast is a production of iHeartRadio and San Diego
Zoo Wildlife Alliance, in international nonprofit conservation organization which oversees
the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
In the last episode, we explored our curiosity and found
out that something as small as a little mouse is
so very important for the stability of the coastal ecosystem
that we all share here in the Southwest.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yeah, and Marco, I have to admit, when we told
people we were doing an episode on a mouse, some
people didn't think it was a species that our audience
would be interested in. I know, but guess what what, Well,
even though most people assume they don't like rodents, everybody
loved the Pacific pocket mouse.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
That's awesome news. I guess it goes to say you
that the more you get to know and understand species,
the more likely you are to really appreciate them exactly.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
And I think we should do it again.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Oh yeah, another episode about a mouse.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
No, Marco Let's do another episode about a completely different
species that is something ignored, misunderstood, and if I'm being honest,
and sometimes gives people the hebgb's.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Ooh okay, what do you have in minded monte?
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Okay? I want to preface this with the fact that
I recently learned that this species and others related to it,
may hold the secret for medical advancements from chronic pain
to hypertension and other heart diseases, to diabetes and possibly
even more.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Oh okay, okay, So let me think. Is this like
the study about why elephants are resistant to cancer due
to the genetics?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well kind of, but not really. But that doesn't actually
give me another idea for an episode. The species I'm
thinking of is a venomous reptile that uses its venom
to capture its prey. And as much as being a
venomous animal makes a lot of people not like them,
it's that very venom that could end up helping a
lot of humans.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Oh right, okay, I've heard about this. There are all
sorts of venomous animals like fish, snails, lizards, and snakes
that scientists are studying to better understand what the venom
is made of and that research is leading to all
kinds of discoveries that are advancing.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Medical care exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
So what species do you have in mind?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I'm thinking of one of the larger venomous snakes from
our Amazonia conservation hub, the South American bush master get bath.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
How cool. I can't wait to learn about these guys.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Same here, and thankfully we have someone who has not
only spent a lot of time with them here at
the San Diego Zoo, but he has also spent a
lot of time out in the wild looking for them.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I am Bret Baldwin, the Associate Curator of Herpetology and Ichthyology.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Oh hold up there, Brett. For those listening that may
not know what is herpetology and ichthyology.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Herpetology is the study of reptiles and amphibians. Ichthyology is
fish the study of fish. So here it's the San
Diego Zoo. We have a large number of reptiles and
amphibians to care for and also a good number of fish,
so we are responsible for the aquatic side of things too.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Wow, that actually covers a lot of species. When you
think about it, Between reptiles, amphibians and fish, you pretty
much have the whole world covered.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure you
could find at least one of those in each of
the conservation hubs that we work in. But today we're
focused on the Amazonia Hub and specifically the reptile known
as the bush master. Brett. I know you love working
with reptiles, and I'd love to have you give us
an introduction to the bushmaster.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
So the bushmaster is the scientific name is the Kisis
Moudha for that species of South American bush master. There's
about five species of Lakisas of a bush master. We
have two here, the black headed bushmaster which is from
Costa Rica, and then the South American bush master that
has a pretty big range in South America, and the
(04:05):
other three species that are there on the Atlantic side
of the coast. And they're very secretive. For one thing,
there's not a lot known about them as far as
in the wild. There's been studies specifically with the South
American bush master about their habits in the wild, but
they're very secretive. And as for being such a large snake,
(04:26):
as they are the largest venomous snake in the Americas,
that is, of all the viperiod snakes from Canada down
through Argentina. These are the largest of the venomous snakes.
They can get up to seven eight feet long. They
have very large fangs, one of the longest fangs of
any of the venomous species of snakes. Another unusual thing
(04:48):
with bush masters in the Americas, the vipers in the
Americas is they lay eggs, which is really unusual in
that the rest of the viperiod snakes like rattle snakes
that people are familiar with, copperheads, cotton mouse, they are libraries.
They don't lay eggs with shells. So there's one other
(05:09):
species in South America known to lay eggs, but this
is very significant thing and it's very unusual.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Well, that's interesting about the eggs. Do we know why
that is?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
There is something? Well, they do stay with their eggs.
They use burrows like roadent burrows that are fairly deep,
and they will lay their eggs in there and the
females will stay with them and protect them and they
take about seventy two days to incubate.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
It sounds like a really good survival strategy to protect
the eggs like that. Brett, I want to go back
to what you said about the fangs. You mentioned that
they have very large fangs. Is there a reason for that, like,
does it have to do with what their prey is specifically,
or more about how they hunt.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
They like marsupials South America marsupials, Latin American marsupials, rodents,
large rodents, rats are pretty common in their diet. But
again those are the some of the known species of
prey that they eat in the wild. I'm sure they
eat other warm blooded prey too that they might happen upon.
They're an ambush predator, so they're not actively hunting. They
(06:14):
find a spot and they sit and they wait for
prey to come by, which is pretty common for by
period snakes, our rittal snakes in the US also our
ambush predators. They find a spot and they sit and
they wait. They have the heat pits that they use
for sensing warm buttered prey, which is they can use
at night so they don't need to see anything. So
(06:35):
that is something that's different as being an apex predator,
which they are one of the aprex predators in Latin America,
and that they're very large reptile predator jaguars, very large predator,
the crocodilians that they're there are also up there too.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well wait, wait, wait, wait, Brett, your answer about the
fangs just made for more questions. I want to ask
more about the apex predator, but I also want you
to clarify what are the heat pits and how are
they helpful.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
So one of the things that I love about venomous
snakes is that evolutionarily, it is just incredible that they
have this venom. So heat pits is another thing, another
aspect and an attribute that is just fascinating to me
that they have evolved that helps them to acquire prey
or to detect warm blooded animals. It doesn't have to
(07:25):
be prey. You might detect a predator of some person
walking by. They sense it, they'll know they can see it.
It's like an infrared sensor between the eye and the
end of their nose or the two narres that they have,
which you would call a nose, but they're called narres,
one on each side, and so they're very large, so
that if you were to see one close up, you
would think it's a nose opening, but it's really not.
(07:46):
It's a heat pit. And it doesn't occur on all
viperiod snakes. So we often say, New World vibers have
these pits and they haven't evolved in certain places like
Europe and Africa, when those vipers don't have those pits.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
That's so incredible to think that they have this extra
sense to help them perceive the world around them, picking
up the heat that other animals' bodies give off, and
that their brain can take this information in like how
we would see heat through an infrared camera. Sounds like
a real life superpowered at me move that's side spider.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Man, I know exactly. Can you imagine that, Marco? I
think it would be pretty cool to be able to
have that added sense of seeing heat signatures of other
animals like that so amazing.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, I agree, I mean that would be so useful,
especially when playing hide and seek or going out for
a night hike.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Exactly. Okay, Okay, we got a little distracted thinking about
how cool it would be to have bushmaster adaptations, but
I want to go back to the topic of apex
predator what it means.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, I mean, we know that other species like the
harpie eagle or the jaguar are considered apex predators. They
all eat a variety of prey, but no other species
really hunts them right.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So essentially they are top of the food chain, so they.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Eat larger mammal prey. And another thing that's unique with
them because they do take in larger prey, is that
they're one of the only species known of a vibrant
to strike at their prey and hang on to it,
Because bridle snakes will strike quickly and release, and then
they'll follow the prairie scent to find it. It's very
(09:22):
effective way to acquire prey as to not be injured.
It happens at the eighth of a second it's going
and there don't risks being chewed on or bitten or scratched.
But with the bushmasters, they're taking a strike at a
large prey item that could injure them, but it also
might run away before it passes, and then something else
(09:44):
might find it and take off with it, so that's
a possibility. But with a bushmaster, they have long things,
so they cannot only inject the venom deep. They can
hang on better, and so underneath their eyes are some
specialized scales that come up in kind of as pseudo
protectors of them lives. So if there's something flailing around
(10:08):
in their mouth, trying to bite them. Their eyes are protected,
but they do hang on to their prey. Therefore, those
eye protectors are important.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
WHOA, you mentioned the long fangs before, but what is
this eye protection scale?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I mean, is it like the nick ditating membrane or
second pair of eyelids that eagles or crocodiles have or
is it something different.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
It's a scale, So you wouldn't really notice this scale
until you saw it in action. Is when the snake
has grabbed its prey item and is biting down and
the flex of the muscle will pull the scale up
over the eye.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Seriously, that is such a cool adaptation.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, so not really an eyelid or a niicck ditating membrane,
but a scale that comes up to protect the eye
in the similar way that an eyelid does. Mind blode.
That is so wicked.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
I know exactly what you mean. Oh and real quick,
I've been thrown a word around. If there's anyone out
there who's not sure what the word adaptation means. It's
when a living organism like a plant or an animal
has something that helps it survive or allows them to
be better suited for life and the environment they live.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
In Yeah, like the ie scale that we just learned about,
or he pits Brett mentioned before.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yes, exactly. Both of those are great adaptations, and Brett,
there's one more adaptation the bush master has that many
people fear, but you, well, you're kind of fascinated by it.
While most people associate venom as another reason to fear
or dislike sneakes, you see it as one of the
more unique adaptations worth learning more about.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
So I think about this all quite a bit as
to why this all came about and how this evolutionary
process occurred, and there's books about it and paper's written
about it. But they don't have legs or arms, so
there is a great necessity for them to have something better,
some way of apprehending and prey acquiring it, and not
(12:00):
only to getting it, but to eat it or to
consume it, because the fangs also help in pulling the
prey down. Their jaws are specialized also in that they
can move independently. The top jaw, left and right side
of the lower jaw are not technically joined by a bone,
and they are able to move independently. So now they're
(12:21):
not chewing their prey out, they're swallowing it a whole,
so no arms or legs. There is a need for
something better, some better way to acquire prey and to
ensure that they survive, So at some point this venom
is just like the most incredible thing for me in
(12:42):
the evolutionary scheme of things for an animal to possess
or to have produced. It's kind of a technical saliva,
a digestive product. It's one of the most complex organic
proteins there is, and it changes all the time. It
even changes a juvenile venomous snake as it grows into
an adult depending on what prey it eats, because they
(13:05):
different prey when they're smaller, so the venom will likely
be different.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Oh wait, Brett, there's a belief out there that the
venom of a baby or a young venomus snake is
more dangerous than an adult if the venom changes over
time to better matts to prey they're eating, would it
adult snakes have stronger venom?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Oh yeah, that's right. And I've also heard that baby
venomous snakes can't control how much venom they use, so
sometimes their bites can be even more dangerous. Are any
of these true? Bread or is there a different reason
behind the increased danger of these little ones.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
There will be a higher stress factor in a smaller snake,
likely because it is more susceptible to prey. They know
they're a target. A larger snake is a less likely target,
so there's likely a stress factor involved there. Also, as
can they control the amount of venom. That's possible, but
(13:58):
it is different because food items are different as they
grow older and they need a different type of venom
as they get older.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Wow, that is really interesting, Brett, and it makes sense.
It's not about the younger snakes being able to control
venom or not, but it's more about the fact that
they are smaller, so they're more likely in need of
defending themselves against larger predators.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yes, so interesting. And see as we're talking about venom, Marco,
I wanted to ask more about that.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Oh that's right, Rick. Didn't you say something about the
new medicines that help us thanks to the study of venom.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yes, that's right, Marco. Okay, Brett. Aside from the venom
being a great adaptation, like you explained to us, for
the safety of acquiring food and allowing them to be
this important apex predator, that helps keep the ecosystem in balance.
I was impressed to hear that venom has allowed for
medical advancements in human medicine beyond just making anti venom.
What is it about the venom that is contributing to this.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
So we know that snake venom is an extremely complex
organic protein. It is has been used and developed in
derivatives of many drugs, and that list is growing. So
pharmaceutical companies have invested into snake venom and have come
up with products that are worked for diabetes, heart medication,
(15:19):
and they're still coming up with things. It's basically it's
untapped at this point. Painkillers that are one hundred times
more effective than what we know of and not addictive,
which is a really interesting thing. And we again it's
just scratching the surface.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
That's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
This is what I love Mother Nature to think that
there's so much out there that we still don't know about.
We've learned so much from indigenous people and their beliefs
and cultures about the medicinal uses of plants all across
South and Central America, and now we're able to look
at different components of venom to help with medical advancements.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Also, yeah, it's kind of funny. I mean, not funny,
ha ha, but funny interesting that we often look at
conservation of wildlife as a means to maintain healthy environments
and therefore a healthy world for all of us to
live in. But oh yeah, by the way, extra bonus
for making sure venomous reptiles don't go extinct because they
can help us in so many other ways.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, right on, Fred, And that brings us back to
the Amazonia Conservation Hub.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Yes, the conservation side of all of this, Brett, What
are some of the things we are doing here at
the San Diego Zoo for these amazing snakes.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
We'll try to duplicate their environment. They have very large habitats,
and we've even set up cameras on there to watch them,
so we have video and we see what they do.
We've set up boxes in there for them to lay
eggs in and with clear tops. We didn't know if
they were going to like that or not with the
clear tops because they use long, deep, dark burrows, but
(16:50):
turned out the female was okay with the box with
a clear lid, and she was gravied, which means she
had eggs, and she went into the box so we
know about the time of the year they are producing eggs.
We kind of know about the time of the year
they're reproducing if we're able to capture that copulation or
the actual breeding of the male and the female. We
(17:11):
see that, which is something that you know, you don't
see in the wild. There's shedding cycles. There's a lot
all the things that we observe and that we see
them do. We keep records of everything, every little thing.
So there's a lot of notes that we have a
lot of documentation that we have on these snakes in
(17:31):
the zoo environment.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
That sounds like a lot of information that has been
collected over time, right, can you tell us why this
is so important.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
There's still not much known about them, the natural history
of these animals, and we could just go along and
not document this information and not be concerned with them.
But we will accumulate all this data, and other institutions
have kept them too, and we communicate with other institutions
and compile this data. We'll have all this data, and
(18:03):
you know, it's just important to keep record of natural
history of the animals, whether it is in the wild
or whether it's here at the zoo. So hopefully what
we have will be beneficial for the work that's being
done in the field. At some point it could be utilized.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
That is really a great example not only how zoos
work together for conservation, but also shines a light on
the importance of zoos in general.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, and like you said, Brett, all of this information
can help our researchers and partners working in different conservation
hubs all around the world.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Brett, I can't thank you enough for taking the time
to sit down with us and share your knowledge and
passion about a species that so many people would rather
avoid altogether.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, no kidding, Rick, but it does make me wonder,
what is it, Brett, that first got you excited about
snakes and other reptiles.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
You know, I think about that a lot ever since
I was a kid. I've got photos my parents too,
come in when I'm must have been three with a
horn blizzard in my hand growing up in Texas, and
it just always been fascinated. I guess it started with
dinosaurs and then at some point sharks, but it's always
been reptiles that's been what really Because I'm a little
(19:13):
bit odd myself, so I like I'm kind of interested
in just things that most people are not, and reptiles
has just always been something that I spent lots of
time in Texas looking for them. As a kid. My
dad would take me out fishing, and that's what I did.
I look for reptiles and amphibians and I would tay Dad,
(19:35):
let's go fishing and on a Saturday morning and he
said I can't, We can't go. I said, come on,
come on to My mom would say, just take him fishing,
and then he was he doesn't want to go fishing.
He wants to look for snakes. And he was right.
So I don't know. I've just always I would keep
them as a kid. My parents were understanding enough, I
(19:56):
guess are lenient enough, and they allowed me to keep
a numbers of them at my bedroom at my house.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
So for you, hanging out with a lot of different
reptiles is just another day, whereas for a lot of
other people, though, just seeing one or thinking of one
can bring an instant sense of fear or Dislike Brett,
what would you like to get across other people, especially
for those who might have the instant immediate responsive I
just don't like them when they think about snakes.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
They are important and they play an important part of
the ecosystem wherever they exist around the world, and they
don't want to hurt you. They don't want to bite you.
They have a rattle. That's the first warning, is like
they don't want to waste the venom on you, on
a person when they're not going to teach you. They
got to use it for their food, and they need
it for their food. That's part of their survival. So
(20:42):
even some of the venomous snakes will vibrate their tail
that don't have rattles in the leaves, kind of like
as a warning to people to leave them alone. Don't
get too close, just stay away. We don't really want
to bite you. But there's so many non venomous reptiles,
lizards particular. I know that people have their fears of
(21:03):
the little lizards or the small snakes, but they will
run away from you faster than you can run away
from them. And the lizards in particular eat lots of insects,
and they do a lot around your house. So if
you can keep the lizards around and the snakes around,
and you'll have other unwanted things not There.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
All great information and reminders that reptiles would rather avoid us,
and they keep our environment clear of rodents, insects, and
others so called pests.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
And it's important to remember you don't have to like them,
but we do ask you respect them enough to give
them their space if you should ever come across one
in the wild or in your neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
With TC Lisa ass Brett, you have really given us
a lot of great information and new insight to the
bushmasters of South America.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
You know, I'm starting to see a connection here, Marco,
Oh yeah, what's that? Well, so far, it seems a
lot of our guests who are a passionate and seemingly
forever curious about the wildlife they work with, have been
that way since childhood.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I know that's right and lucky for all of us
that the adults in their lives either supported or at
least allowed for them to explore those passions exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
So maybe that's one more lesson we've learned for this episode.
The future wildlife care specialists, conservationists, and wildlife researchers of
the world might be listening right now.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, right on. And if those adults in those kids'
lives are listening right now, I hope they understand that
allowing kids to play in nature and pursue their curiosity
for wildlife could very well be the start of the
next generation taking care of wildlife and even the world.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Great point, Marco and I can't wait to see the
next generation of wildlife allies join all of us in
our efforts to make this a world where all life thrives.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Well said Buddy.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
All Right, everyone, be sure to subscribe and tune into
our next episode, in which we share with you some
curious facts about a mysterious animal of the Amazonian hub Ubb,
who also happens to be very cute.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Marco Wentz and I'm Rick Schwartz.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Thanks for listening. For more information about the San Diego
Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park, go to SVZWA
dot org. Amazing Wildlife is a production of iHeartRadio. Our
supervising producer is Nikiah Swinton and our sound designer and
editor is Sierra Spreen. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check
out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
(23:31):
to your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
What is the world? Marco went?
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of
wildlife from around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts.
This podcast is a production of iHeartRadio and San Diego
Zoo Wildlife Alliance, in international nonprofit conservation organization which oversees
the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
In the last episode, we explored our curiosity and found
out that something as small as a little mouse is
so very important for the stability of the coastal ecosystem
that we all share here in the Southwest.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yeah, and Marco, I have to admit, when we told
people we were doing an episode on a mouse, some
people didn't think it was a species that our audience
would be interested in. I know, but guess what what, Well,
even though most people assume they don't like rodents, everybody
loved the Pacific pocket mouse.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
That's awesome news. I guess it goes to say you
that the more you get to know and understand species,
the more likely you are to really appreciate them exactly.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
And I think we should do it again.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Oh yeah, another episode about a mouse.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
No, Marco Let's do another episode about a completely different
species that is something ignored, misunderstood, and if I'm being honest,
and sometimes gives people the hebgb's.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Ooh okay, what do you have in minded monte?
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Okay? I want to preface this with the fact that
I recently learned that this species and others related to it,
may hold the secret for medical advancements from chronic pain
to hypertension and other heart diseases, to diabetes and possibly
even more.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Oh okay, okay, So let me think. Is this like
the study about why elephants are resistant to cancer due
to the genetics?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well kind of, but not really. But that doesn't actually
give me another idea for an episode. The species I'm
thinking of is a venomous reptile that uses its venom
to capture its prey. And as much as being a
venomous animal makes a lot of people not like them,
it's that very venom that could end up helping a
lot of humans.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Oh right, okay, I've heard about this. There are all
sorts of venomous animals like fish, snails, lizards, and snakes
that scientists are studying to better understand what the venom
is made of and that research is leading to all
kinds of discoveries that are advancing.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Medical care exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
So what species do you have in mind?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I'm thinking of one of the larger venomous snakes from
our Amazonia conservation hub, the South American bush master get bath.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
How cool. I can't wait to learn about these guys.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Same here, and thankfully we have someone who has not
only spent a lot of time with them here at
the San Diego Zoo, but he has also spent a
lot of time out in the wild looking for them.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I am Bret Baldwin, the Associate Curator of Herpetology and Ichthyology.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Oh hold up there, Brett. For those listening that may
not know what is herpetology and ichthyology.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Herpetology is the study of reptiles and amphibians. Ichthyology is
fish the study of fish. So here it's the San
Diego Zoo. We have a large number of reptiles and
amphibians to care for and also a good number of fish,
so we are responsible for the aquatic side of things too.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Wow, that actually covers a lot of species. When you
think about it, Between reptiles, amphibians and fish, you pretty
much have the whole world covered.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure you
could find at least one of those in each of
the conservation hubs that we work in. But today we're
focused on the Amazonia Hub and specifically the reptile known
as the bush master. Brett. I know you love working
with reptiles, and I'd love to have you give us
an introduction to the bushmaster.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
So the bushmaster is the scientific name is the Kisis
Moudha for that species of South American bush master. There's
about five species of Lakisas of a bush master. We
have two here, the black headed bushmaster which is from
Costa Rica, and then the South American bush master that
has a pretty big range in South America, and the
(04:05):
other three species that are there on the Atlantic side
of the coast. And they're very secretive. For one thing,
there's not a lot known about them as far as
in the wild. There's been studies specifically with the South
American bush master about their habits in the wild, but
they're very secretive. And as for being such a large snake,
(04:26):
as they are the largest venomous snake in the Americas,
that is, of all the viperiod snakes from Canada down
through Argentina. These are the largest of the venomous snakes.
They can get up to seven eight feet long. They
have very large fangs, one of the longest fangs of
any of the venomous species of snakes. Another unusual thing
(04:48):
with bush masters in the Americas, the vipers in the
Americas is they lay eggs, which is really unusual in
that the rest of the viperiod snakes like rattle snakes
that people are familiar with, copperheads, cotton mouse, they are libraries.
They don't lay eggs with shells. So there's one other
(05:09):
species in South America known to lay eggs, but this
is very significant thing and it's very unusual.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Well, that's interesting about the eggs. Do we know why
that is?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
There is something? Well, they do stay with their eggs.
They use burrows like roadent burrows that are fairly deep,
and they will lay their eggs in there and the
females will stay with them and protect them and they
take about seventy two days to incubate.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
It sounds like a really good survival strategy to protect
the eggs like that. Brett, I want to go back
to what you said about the fangs. You mentioned that
they have very large fangs. Is there a reason for that, like,
does it have to do with what their prey is specifically,
or more about how they hunt.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
They like marsupials South America marsupials, Latin American marsupials, rodents,
large rodents, rats are pretty common in their diet. But
again those are the some of the known species of
prey that they eat in the wild. I'm sure they
eat other warm blooded prey too that they might happen upon.
They're an ambush predator, so they're not actively hunting. They
(06:14):
find a spot and they sit and they wait for
prey to come by, which is pretty common for by
period snakes, our rittal snakes in the US also our
ambush predators. They find a spot and they sit and
they wait. They have the heat pits that they use
for sensing warm buttered prey, which is they can use
at night so they don't need to see anything. So
(06:35):
that is something that's different as being an apex predator,
which they are one of the aprex predators in Latin America,
and that they're very large reptile predator jaguars, very large predator,
the crocodilians that they're there are also up there too.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well wait, wait, wait, wait, Brett, your answer about the
fangs just made for more questions. I want to ask
more about the apex predator, but I also want you
to clarify what are the heat pits and how are
they helpful.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
So one of the things that I love about venomous
snakes is that evolutionarily, it is just incredible that they
have this venom. So heat pits is another thing, another
aspect and an attribute that is just fascinating to me
that they have evolved that helps them to acquire prey
or to detect warm blooded animals. It doesn't have to
(07:25):
be prey. You might detect a predator of some person
walking by. They sense it, they'll know they can see it.
It's like an infrared sensor between the eye and the
end of their nose or the two narres that they have,
which you would call a nose, but they're called narres,
one on each side, and so they're very large, so
that if you were to see one close up, you
would think it's a nose opening, but it's really not.
(07:46):
It's a heat pit. And it doesn't occur on all
viperiod snakes. So we often say, New World vibers have
these pits and they haven't evolved in certain places like
Europe and Africa, when those vipers don't have those pits.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
That's so incredible to think that they have this extra
sense to help them perceive the world around them, picking
up the heat that other animals' bodies give off, and
that their brain can take this information in like how
we would see heat through an infrared camera. Sounds like
a real life superpowered at me move that's side spider.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Man, I know exactly. Can you imagine that, Marco? I
think it would be pretty cool to be able to
have that added sense of seeing heat signatures of other
animals like that so amazing.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, I agree, I mean that would be so useful,
especially when playing hide and seek or going out for
a night hike.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Exactly. Okay, Okay, we got a little distracted thinking about
how cool it would be to have bushmaster adaptations, but
I want to go back to the topic of apex
predator what it means.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, I mean, we know that other species like the
harpie eagle or the jaguar are considered apex predators. They
all eat a variety of prey, but no other species
really hunts them right.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So essentially they are top of the food chain, so they.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Eat larger mammal prey. And another thing that's unique with
them because they do take in larger prey, is that
they're one of the only species known of a vibrant
to strike at their prey and hang on to it,
Because bridle snakes will strike quickly and release, and then
they'll follow the prairie scent to find it. It's very
(09:22):
effective way to acquire prey as to not be injured.
It happens at the eighth of a second it's going
and there don't risks being chewed on or bitten or scratched.
But with the bushmasters, they're taking a strike at a
large prey item that could injure them, but it also
might run away before it passes, and then something else
(09:44):
might find it and take off with it, so that's
a possibility. But with a bushmaster, they have long things,
so they cannot only inject the venom deep. They can
hang on better, and so underneath their eyes are some
specialized scales that come up in kind of as pseudo
protectors of them lives. So if there's something flailing around
(10:08):
in their mouth, trying to bite them. Their eyes are protected,
but they do hang on to their prey. Therefore, those
eye protectors are important.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
WHOA, you mentioned the long fangs before, but what is
this eye protection scale?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I mean, is it like the nick ditating membrane or
second pair of eyelids that eagles or crocodiles have or
is it something different.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
It's a scale, So you wouldn't really notice this scale
until you saw it in action. Is when the snake
has grabbed its prey item and is biting down and
the flex of the muscle will pull the scale up
over the eye.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Seriously, that is such a cool adaptation.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, so not really an eyelid or a niicck ditating membrane,
but a scale that comes up to protect the eye
in the similar way that an eyelid does. Mind blode.
That is so wicked.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
I know exactly what you mean. Oh and real quick,
I've been thrown a word around. If there's anyone out
there who's not sure what the word adaptation means. It's
when a living organism like a plant or an animal
has something that helps it survive or allows them to
be better suited for life and the environment they live.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
In Yeah, like the ie scale that we just learned about,
or he pits Brett mentioned before.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yes, exactly. Both of those are great adaptations, and Brett,
there's one more adaptation the bush master has that many
people fear, but you, well, you're kind of fascinated by it.
While most people associate venom as another reason to fear
or dislike sneakes, you see it as one of the
more unique adaptations worth learning more about.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
So I think about this all quite a bit as
to why this all came about and how this evolutionary
process occurred, and there's books about it and paper's written
about it. But they don't have legs or arms, so
there is a great necessity for them to have something better,
some way of apprehending and prey acquiring it, and not
(12:00):
only to getting it, but to eat it or to
consume it, because the fangs also help in pulling the
prey down. Their jaws are specialized also in that they
can move independently. The top jaw, left and right side
of the lower jaw are not technically joined by a bone,
and they are able to move independently. So now they're
(12:21):
not chewing their prey out, they're swallowing it a whole,
so no arms or legs. There is a need for
something better, some better way to acquire prey and to
ensure that they survive, So at some point this venom
is just like the most incredible thing for me in
(12:42):
the evolutionary scheme of things for an animal to possess
or to have produced. It's kind of a technical saliva,
a digestive product. It's one of the most complex organic
proteins there is, and it changes all the time. It
even changes a juvenile venomous snake as it grows into
an adult depending on what prey it eats, because they
(13:05):
different prey when they're smaller, so the venom will likely
be different.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Oh wait, Brett, there's a belief out there that the
venom of a baby or a young venomus snake is
more dangerous than an adult if the venom changes over
time to better matts to prey they're eating, would it
adult snakes have stronger venom?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Oh yeah, that's right. And I've also heard that baby
venomous snakes can't control how much venom they use, so
sometimes their bites can be even more dangerous. Are any
of these true? Bread or is there a different reason
behind the increased danger of these little ones.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
There will be a higher stress factor in a smaller snake,
likely because it is more susceptible to prey. They know
they're a target. A larger snake is a less likely target,
so there's likely a stress factor involved there. Also, as
can they control the amount of venom. That's possible, but
(13:58):
it is different because food items are different as they
grow older and they need a different type of venom
as they get older.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Wow, that is really interesting, Brett, and it makes sense.
It's not about the younger snakes being able to control
venom or not, but it's more about the fact that
they are smaller, so they're more likely in need of
defending themselves against larger predators.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yes, so interesting. And see as we're talking about venom, Marco,
I wanted to ask more about that.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Oh that's right, Rick. Didn't you say something about the
new medicines that help us thanks to the study of venom.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yes, that's right, Marco. Okay, Brett. Aside from the venom
being a great adaptation, like you explained to us, for
the safety of acquiring food and allowing them to be
this important apex predator, that helps keep the ecosystem in balance.
I was impressed to hear that venom has allowed for
medical advancements in human medicine beyond just making anti venom.
What is it about the venom that is contributing to this.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
So we know that snake venom is an extremely complex
organic protein. It is has been used and developed in
derivatives of many drugs, and that list is growing. So
pharmaceutical companies have invested into snake venom and have come
up with products that are worked for diabetes, heart medication,
(15:19):
and they're still coming up with things. It's basically it's
untapped at this point. Painkillers that are one hundred times
more effective than what we know of and not addictive,
which is a really interesting thing. And we again it's
just scratching the surface.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
That's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
This is what I love Mother Nature to think that
there's so much out there that we still don't know about.
We've learned so much from indigenous people and their beliefs
and cultures about the medicinal uses of plants all across
South and Central America, and now we're able to look
at different components of venom to help with medical advancements.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Also, yeah, it's kind of funny. I mean, not funny,
ha ha, but funny interesting that we often look at
conservation of wildlife as a means to maintain healthy environments
and therefore a healthy world for all of us to
live in. But oh yeah, by the way, extra bonus
for making sure venomous reptiles don't go extinct because they
can help us in so many other ways.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, right on, Fred, And that brings us back to
the Amazonia Conservation Hub.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Yes, the conservation side of all of this, Brett, What
are some of the things we are doing here at
the San Diego Zoo for these amazing snakes.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
We'll try to duplicate their environment. They have very large habitats,
and we've even set up cameras on there to watch them,
so we have video and we see what they do.
We've set up boxes in there for them to lay
eggs in and with clear tops. We didn't know if
they were going to like that or not with the
clear tops because they use long, deep, dark burrows, but
(16:50):
turned out the female was okay with the box with
a clear lid, and she was gravied, which means she
had eggs, and she went into the box so we
know about the time of the year they are producing eggs.
We kind of know about the time of the year
they're reproducing if we're able to capture that copulation or
the actual breeding of the male and the female. We
(17:11):
see that, which is something that you know, you don't
see in the wild. There's shedding cycles. There's a lot
all the things that we observe and that we see
them do. We keep records of everything, every little thing.
So there's a lot of notes that we have a
lot of documentation that we have on these snakes in
(17:31):
the zoo environment.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
That sounds like a lot of information that has been
collected over time, right, can you tell us why this
is so important.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
There's still not much known about them, the natural history
of these animals, and we could just go along and
not document this information and not be concerned with them.
But we will accumulate all this data, and other institutions
have kept them too, and we communicate with other institutions
and compile this data. We'll have all this data, and
(18:03):
you know, it's just important to keep record of natural
history of the animals, whether it is in the wild
or whether it's here at the zoo. So hopefully what
we have will be beneficial for the work that's being
done in the field. At some point it could be utilized.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
That is really a great example not only how zoos
work together for conservation, but also shines a light on
the importance of zoos in general.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, and like you said, Brett, all of this information
can help our researchers and partners working in different conservation
hubs all around the world.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Brett, I can't thank you enough for taking the time
to sit down with us and share your knowledge and
passion about a species that so many people would rather
avoid altogether.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, no kidding, Rick, but it does make me wonder,
what is it, Brett, that first got you excited about
snakes and other reptiles.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
You know, I think about that a lot ever since
I was a kid. I've got photos my parents too,
come in when I'm must have been three with a
horn blizzard in my hand growing up in Texas, and
it just always been fascinated. I guess it started with
dinosaurs and then at some point sharks, but it's always
been reptiles that's been what really Because I'm a little
(19:13):
bit odd myself, so I like I'm kind of interested
in just things that most people are not, and reptiles
has just always been something that I spent lots of
time in Texas looking for them. As a kid. My
dad would take me out fishing, and that's what I did.
I look for reptiles and amphibians and I would tay Dad,
(19:35):
let's go fishing and on a Saturday morning and he
said I can't, We can't go. I said, come on,
come on to My mom would say, just take him fishing,
and then he was he doesn't want to go fishing.
He wants to look for snakes. And he was right.
So I don't know. I've just always I would keep
them as a kid. My parents were understanding enough, I
(19:56):
guess are lenient enough, and they allowed me to keep
a numbers of them at my bedroom at my house.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
So for you, hanging out with a lot of different
reptiles is just another day, whereas for a lot of
other people, though, just seeing one or thinking of one
can bring an instant sense of fear or Dislike Brett,
what would you like to get across other people, especially
for those who might have the instant immediate responsive I
just don't like them when they think about snakes.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
They are important and they play an important part of
the ecosystem wherever they exist around the world, and they
don't want to hurt you. They don't want to bite you.
They have a rattle. That's the first warning, is like
they don't want to waste the venom on you, on
a person when they're not going to teach you. They
got to use it for their food, and they need
it for their food. That's part of their survival. So
(20:42):
even some of the venomous snakes will vibrate their tail
that don't have rattles in the leaves, kind of like
as a warning to people to leave them alone. Don't
get too close, just stay away. We don't really want
to bite you. But there's so many non venomous reptiles,
lizards particular. I know that people have their fears of
(21:03):
the little lizards or the small snakes, but they will
run away from you faster than you can run away
from them. And the lizards in particular eat lots of insects,
and they do a lot around your house. So if
you can keep the lizards around and the snakes around,
and you'll have other unwanted things not There.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
All great information and reminders that reptiles would rather avoid us,
and they keep our environment clear of rodents, insects, and
others so called pests.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
And it's important to remember you don't have to like them,
but we do ask you respect them enough to give
them their space if you should ever come across one
in the wild or in your neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
With TC Lisa ass Brett, you have really given us
a lot of great information and new insight to the
bushmasters of South America.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
You know, I'm starting to see a connection here, Marco,
Oh yeah, what's that? Well, so far, it seems a
lot of our guests who are a passionate and seemingly
forever curious about the wildlife they work with, have been
that way since childhood.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I know that's right and lucky for all of us
that the adults in their lives either supported or at
least allowed for them to explore those passions exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
So maybe that's one more lesson we've learned for this episode.
The future wildlife care specialists, conservationists, and wildlife researchers of
the world might be listening right now.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, right on. And if those adults in those kids'
lives are listening right now, I hope they understand that
allowing kids to play in nature and pursue their curiosity
for wildlife could very well be the start of the
next generation taking care of wildlife and even the world.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Great point, Marco and I can't wait to see the
next generation of wildlife allies join all of us in
our efforts to make this a world where all life thrives.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Well said Buddy.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
All Right, everyone, be sure to subscribe and tune into
our next episode, in which we share with you some
curious facts about a mysterious animal of the Amazonian hub Ubb,
who also happens to be very cute.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Marco Wentz and I'm Rick Schwartz.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Thanks for listening. For more information about the San Diego
Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park, go to SVZWA
dot org. Amazing Wildlife is a production of iHeartRadio. Our
supervising producer is Nikiah Swinton and our sound designer and
editor is Sierra Spreen. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check
out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
(23:31):
to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Rick Schwartz
Marco Wendt
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