July 2, 2025 • 26 mins
American history is full of folklore and tall tales, so it's hard to believe that Founders Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both died on July 4th, 1826 — exactly 50 years after signing the Declaration of Independence. But it's all true! Historian Lindsay Chervinsky tells the stories of these patriotic deaths, including Adams' belief that "Jefferson still lives." Interestingly enough, James Madison actually tried to AVOID dying on the 4th of July. It turns out, Independence Day is rife with patriotic deaths and coincidences!
GUEST: Lindsay Chervinsky, presidential historian and the Executive Director of the George Washington Presidential Library. She is the author of the award-winning book, The Cabinet: George Washington and the Creation of an American Institution, co-editor of Mourning the Presidents: Loss and Legacy in American Culture, and the forthcoming book, Making the Presidency: John Adams and the Precedents That Forged the Republic
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Crawford (00:00):
Hey there, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in
to our first episode of American History Hotline. If you
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(00:22):
reading every email so it'll get seen. Okay, on with
the show. You've reached American History Hotline.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
You asked the.
Bob Crawford (00:33):
Question what is political technology?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
George Washington really cut down at churchree.
Lindsay Chervinsky (00:38):
JK Malon Monroe having a fair We get the answers.
Bob Crawford (00:41):
I'm so glad you asked me this question.
Lindsay Chervinsky (00:43):
This is such a ridiculous story that we tell ourselves
because we don't want to know the real story.
Bob Crawford (00:48):
Leave a message. Hey, there are American History Hotliners. Your
host Bob Crawford here, happy to be joining you again
for our first episode of a ma American History Hotline.
You're the ones with the questions. I'm a guy trying
to get you some answers. The best way to get
us a question is to record a video or a
(01:09):
voice memo on your phone and email it to Americanhistory
Hotline at gmail dot com. That's Americanhistory Hotline at gmail
dot com. And remember we are the American History Hotline.
I love talking about the Bolshevik Revolution as much as
the next guy, but there's plenty to talk about on
(01:30):
this continent. Okay. Today's question is about our founding fathers.
And here to help me answer this question is Lindsey Shavinsky,
a presidential historian and the executive director of the George
Washington Presidential Library. She's also the author of the book
Making the Presidency, John Adams, and the Precedents That Forged
(01:53):
the Republic. Lindsay Shavinsky, thank you so much for joining
us today.
Lindsay Chervinsky (01:58):
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Bob Crawford (02:00):
Okay, Lindsey, I'm hoping you can help us answer this
question we got from a listener.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Hi, this is Joseph from Eden Prairie, Minnesota. I heard
that both Thomas Jefferson and John Adams died on the
fiftieth anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
That sounds a little convenient. Did this really happen or
is it patriotic folklore?
Lindsay Chervinsky (02:27):
I love this question because it really gets at the
fact that this is such a ridiculous story that it
feels like it's made up and it's fact, but in truth,
the truth is stranger than fiction. And yes, indeed, John
Adams and Thomas Jefferson both died on July fourth, fifty
years to the day from the Declaration of Independence. I
(02:48):
would then add five years later James Munro also died
on July fourth, So if you're a Founder, you probably
had to start getting pretty nervous when July fourth rolled around.
Bob Crawford (02:58):
Well, so, yeah, I did a little reading into this
as well, and it seems like James Madison, he died
on June twenty eighth, eighteen thirty six, he didn't quite
make it, do you think now. I've read that his
dying words were his niece maybe asked him what was
the matter, and he said, I've just had a change
(03:20):
of mind or something to that extent, and he died.
So he died so close. And the three other Founder
presidents they all landed on the fourth. What's up with
James Madison?
Lindsay Chervinsky (03:33):
So I've heard mixed reports. Some historians think that he
actually really didn't want to die on July fourth, because
it would have started to get almost like cliche and
sort of ridiculous, and he didn't want to either tread
on Jefferson's memory or be a part of that. I'm
not totally sure what the reason, but that he didn't
want to be and so he sort of refused anything
(03:57):
that would allow him to perhaps linger. Other reports suggest
that he was very aware of it, but there wasn't
any intention in terms of either trying to make it
or not make it. But I think that this entire
conversation gets at the fact that this is just such
a bizarre occurrence, and it was very much apparent to
(04:18):
people at the time too. They were immediately aware of
the anniversary and how extraordinary it was that this happened.
Bob Crawford (04:25):
Okay, so let's talk about Jefferson and Adams to start.
Jefferson was eighty three, Adams was ninety who died first.
Lindsay Chervinsky (04:35):
So Jefferson died first. He died in the late morning,
and he was quite intentional about really trying to make
sure he made it until July fourth, and the days
leading up to his death, he was asking people regularly
what time it was and what day it was, and
so he had a sense for the dramatic, and I
think he wanted that flare to close out his life.
(04:57):
And John Adams, who was equally dramatic and also enjoyed
a good element of symbolism. I don't know that he
was necessarily as aware of what date it was, or
there isn't a record suggesting that he was asking as
much in the lead up to it. But what's interesting
is that John Adams thought that Jefferson had survived because
(05:18):
of course news travels slowly, so it's not like they
could get a telephone call. So Jefferson died first. He
died in the morning.
Bob Crawford (05:25):
Yes, So it is rumored that John Adams's last words
were Thomas Jefferson survives. Yeah.
Lindsay Chervinsky (05:34):
And I think there's actually fairly good record keeping about this.
You know, the Adams were pretty notorious about writing a
lot of things down, and then they kept a lot
of things, not everything. They did burn and do some
curating of letters. But if you go to their National
Park Service house, which I highly recommend, you can see
that the family were sometimes a little bit horders and
(05:56):
were very aware of their historical place, and so they
certainly would have marked and noted his final words.
Bob Crawford (06:04):
So, as I recall, it was George Washington Adams, who
was John Quincy's son, who was maybe there with John
Adams when he died and George Washington Adams, he wasn't
the most reliable Adams.
Lindsay Chervinsky (06:19):
That's true. So one of the sad things about the
Adams family is there was a history of what we
would consider today to be alcoholism, and it really plagued
multiple generations. There was also a history of in each
generation there tended to be one really extraordinary son and
then other sons who struggled to live up to that legacy.
(06:42):
And George Washington Adams had the unfortunate burden of being
the son of a president, the grandson of a president,
and he was named after George Washington, so not too
many people would be able to really live up to
those expectations that put that name on him, and he
really struggled with it and ended up probably committing suicide
(07:05):
while his father was president. He went overboard on a
ship and his body. It took a while for it
to be found, but by all accounts, he probably took
his life.
Bob Crawford (07:15):
You mentioned the evidence when John Adams uttered these now
legendary last words. When we talk about the evidence, what
would that be, what would be those sources?
Lindsay Chervinsky (07:28):
It's a great question. So there could be a couple
of things. The family did have a habit of writing diaries,
so it's possible that family members wrote things down in
diaries or shared it with other family members verbally, and
then they wrote it down in diaries. We could also
be looking for letters, so correspondence was mostly done with
quill and parchment at that time, and the Adams were
(07:51):
notorious letter writers, so they usually would have described a
scene like this in the letter writing if we were
looking for evidence that was maybe a little bit less reliable.
Sometimes newspaper reportings of a death of a famous person
would perhaps describe their last moments, but newspapers were known
to embellish with a great deal of flair, and we're
(08:13):
not necessarily reliable sources at the time, so we would
probably be wanting to look for contemporary, meaning sources that
were created around that time, rather than trying to create
a legacy that were written by the person who was
either living in the moment or very close to that person.
Bob Crawford (08:34):
This is American History Hotline. I'm your host, Bob Crawford,
and a quick note before we continue, please send us
your burning questions about American history. Record yourself using the
voice memo app on your phone and email it to
American History Hotline at gmail dot com. That's Americanhistory Hotline
at gmail dot com. Now back to my conversation with
(08:58):
Lindsey Shervinsky, a presidential historian and author of the book
Making the Presidency, John Adams and the Presidents that forged
the Republic. We're talking about the patriotic deaths of John
Adams and Thomas Jefferson, who both died on the fourth
of July. So, Lindsey, leading up to the fiftieth anniversary
(09:18):
of the signing of the Declaration of Independence on July fourth,
eighteen twenty six, Jefferson and Adams had both issued statements.
They were obviously both invited to come to d C
for the celebration, but everybody knew neither of them were
really in any condition to travel.
Lindsay Chervinsky (09:37):
That's right. So ninety years old today is really living
an extraordinary long life. But before the advent of anesthesia
or modern medicine, you have to be really lucky to
live ninety years in the early nineteenth century, and so
these were very old men and they were not in
a position to travel, especially because again you don't have
(09:59):
first class travel like you would have today. There's no
private jet that's going to go pick up a former president.
There's you know, at best, you're going to have a steamship,
which is going to include all of the things that
sometimes see travel includes. So they were not going anywhere,
but when they were invited, they obviously had a very
clear sense of this moment in history. They had a
(10:19):
very clear sense of the nation's history and the importance,
especially because they were among the last founders to survive,
and so there was a sense in the nation that
this really important generation was passing on and was passing
the torch, and it was no longer there to guide
the nation. And at this point, the context is so
important because the nation had just gone through the first
(10:43):
real crisis, the Missouri Crisis in eighteen twenty, when Congress
was trying to figure out what to do with slavery
in the new territories in the West and whether to
permit expansion or not. They were very aware of this crisis.
They wrote about it together. They shared their fears for
the future of the nation, and so they both gave
(11:04):
statements hoping to provide reassurance, to speak to the future,
to speak to future generations, and to kind of give
their blessing to the nation's survival.
Bob Crawford (11:15):
Thomas Jefferson said of the Missouri crisis, it was the
It woke in him like a fire bell in the night,
and it was the knell of the union. And that
was in a letter to a main congressman, John Holmes
I believe his name was. Was that letter made public
(11:36):
during Jefferson's lifetime, I.
Lindsay Chervinsky (11:38):
Don't think so. I don't think the letter was made public.
So Jefferson was very careful about what he said later
in life about slavery, partially because a lot of his
earlier comments had been used against him or had been
very highly publicized. He rarely talked about it with friends.
They knew not to bring it up. Even ardent abolitionists
(11:59):
like the Marquis Delte rarely brought up slavery to Jefferson
because it was not a topic of conversation that was permitted.
So when he did discuss this crisis, which was clearly
over the issue of slavery, it tended to be a
private discussion. He did not want to make the crisis
any worse. The one exception is John Adams. John Adams
wrote to Jefferson while this was all happening that he
(12:21):
was glad that the nation had resolved it. He obviously
understood that this was probably going to continue to be
a source of division, because how can you have a
line across the country where one side feels one way
and one side feels another. But that he hoped that
he could leave it to a higher power to judge.
And he's quite explicit in mentioning slavery in this, and
(12:43):
he's not condemning his friend outright. He's saying, basically, God
will be the judge, which Jefferson probably knew what that meant,
what John Adams actually because he knew what John Adams
felt about slavery. But I think it's pretty remarkable that
John Adams was willing to say that to Jefferson.
Bob Crawford (12:58):
I have to think if if this happened today. This
couldn't happen today, because you know, they would be hundreds
of years old. But if something like this happened today,
this amazing coincidence, that this really this this providential moment,
this moment where the two of the architects of the declaration.
(13:19):
I think Adams was part of the committee, at least
we know that a lot of it came from Jefferson's
own hand. The fact that these two guys died on
the same day. Fifty years after this, then one of
the most important founding documents was written, might lend itself
to conspiracy theories? Were there any.
Lindsay Chervinsky (13:36):
Yes, there were both at the time and sense. So
there were initially people who did not believe the reports,
and that was understandable because sometimes newspapers reported that people
died when they hadn't. People were reporting that Washington died
all the time when he was president, and he was
he would sit there and he'd be like, no, I'm
not still here, you know, still live, So you know,
(13:58):
the newspapers were unreliable. So initially people didn't really believe it,
and then people started to question, well, were people intentionally
keeping them alive? Were people like Hastenian along? People even
wrote at the time about euthanasia that one of them
had been euthanized so that it would happen on the
same day. And there's no evidence to suggest that there's
no evidence to suggest that the family had nefarious purposes
(14:22):
in supporting them and caring for them. But right away
the American tendency to embrace conspiracy reared its creative head.
Bob Crawford (14:31):
And how did the news get out and how long
did it take for for that news to travel You
say Jefferson passed first and then Adams, and how long
did it take for that news to become public?
Lindsay Chervinsky (14:44):
The news regionally passed fairly quickly, so by the end
of July fourth, most people in Boston knew that John
Adams had died, and that was because they could send
a messenger pretty quickly, and so right away the newspapers
started to go in to their morning custom, which meant
that they would have these black bars in between the
columns and around the page to signify mourning rather than
(15:08):
having like a black armband. So right away people in
Boston knew about Adams, same with people in Charlottesville about
Thomas Jefferson. The message was shared and it then of
course word of mouth and through through letters and things
like that and fast postwriters at the time. It wasn't
until many days later that the news started to reach
(15:29):
across the country, and in Delaware, I think it was
July twelfth that they started printing stories about both dying
on the same time. So it took I think over
a week for it to get all the way across
the country. And it's just a good reminder for us
that when we think about this moment, we think about
(15:49):
it on July fourth, but the country was actually experiencing
it over several weeks as the news was getting to
various places.
Bob Crawford (15:57):
So you talked about the memorials printed in the newspaper,
but what were some of the big memorials that took
place in the communities around the nation, And how was
this moment mourned in the White House because the son
of John Adams was the president at the time.
Lindsay Chervinsky (16:15):
Yeah, and John Quincy Adams had learned that his father
was failing and tried to rush home and didn't get
there in time, which he was pretty crushed about. And
in fact, every year afterwards in his life he always
marked in his diary on July fourth that it was
a bittersweet day because he both celebrated the declaration of
Independence but also mourned the passing of his father. So
(16:38):
it was a I think that's always a really nice
demonstration about how much they meant to each other in
terms of the memorials. So at the time, of course,
especially because it's summer, you have to bury someone right away.
They don't have refrigeration. There's no delaying at for a
state funeral. So they had local ceremonies. They were both
buried near home. Community members participated, but it was not
(17:01):
a national experience because again there was this urgency and
a delay in terms of the timing. Over the next
several weeks, the newspapers tended to print memorials for both
of them and recognizing both their shared experience and their
shared contributions and their long, lengthy tenures, and often would
harken back at this point because it was known that
(17:22):
Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence,
but that John Adams had been involved. Of course, hearkening
back to the starting of that partnership, and some of
the other areas in which they were close sometimes would
hold mock funerals. That was something that was done at
the time where if you had someone that people wanted
to celebrate, Washington was the primary example. I think after
(17:43):
Washington died there were over four hundred mock funerals across
the country. There were some of those that were held,
but not in the same numbers. But what's interesting is
you can kind of see once the entire country was
learning about both of their deaths, was a shift to
sort of celebrating both of them as opposed to like
no one in Virginia was just celebrating Adams and no
(18:05):
one in Massachusetts was just celebrating Jefferson. It did tend
to be initially regional and then sort of a dual celebration.
Bob Crawford (18:13):
Just having this moment of realization that I'm talking to
someone who wrote a book about presidential deaths, and fury.
Lindsay Chervinsky (18:22):
Or edited one anyway, edited one, yes one well, and
you know, one of my favorite chapters in that book,
which is called Mourning the Presidents, was about an aspect
of Jefferson's death that we don't necessarily think about, which
is what happened to his estate, and his death triggered
(18:46):
a lot of mourning in the enslaved community, not necessarily
because they were sad that he himself had died, but
because it meant that their lives were going to be
torn apart. And so after Jefferson's death, very quickly his
estate went into bankruptcy because he was severely in debt,
and it triggered an auction of the enslaved individuals held
(19:08):
at Monticello, and most people were sold to the Deep
South and never saw their family again. So that is
a part of Jefferson's death that we always have to
mention because it did have such huge implications.
Bob Crawford (19:21):
Thank you for bringing that up. So we talked a
lot about Jefferson and Adams. We even, you know, spent
a moment with Madison. Once again. James Monroe gets short shrift,
you know. John Quincy Adams said that he didn't have
the essentially to paraphrase, that he didn't have the most
agile mind. Monroe. I've been spending a lot of time
(19:44):
with him lately. I think he worked really hard to
get where he got, but he did have a kind
of reputation of being the least of the founding fathers,
particularly to ascend to the presidency. So just talk for
a minute about Monroe and the opinion of him that
you research has kind of taught you.
Lindsay Chervinsky (20:02):
Like when you say that he worked really hard, that's
like saying someone has a really nice personality.
Bob Crawford (20:09):
I didn't mean it that way. Here's an example. Here's
an example. Okay, you got the Missouri crisis and Adams
goes in there one day to the meet with he's
just meeting with the president, and he brings it. Adams
brings it up and he's like kind of getting worked up.
The way I read the account, he's getting worked up,
and he's like saying, Hey, this is going down, and
(20:30):
this could happen from it, and this might happen, and
this might happen. And Monroe's kind of like, yeah, it's
gonna be okay, I'm not worried about it. And Adams
walks out and says, either he's completely aloof or he's
working behind the scenes and he's not telling me everything
he knows about the situation. And then when you read
it about it from Monroe's perspective, Hey was his secretary
(20:54):
or maybe son in law, and Hay was in contact
with the Virginia legislature, and Roe was kind of trying
to work deals behind the scenes and work the compromise
behind the scenes. So you know, maybe he was just
a little more agile then he's gotten credit for. And
also when it came when this when the Missouri compromise
(21:17):
was signed and the bill landed on his desk, he
brought his cabinet to the President's house and he says, look,
I want us all to be on the same page
about this for posterity, and here's a couple questions, and
I want you guys to put your answers in writing,
and they really work to all be on the same page.
And when Roe wanted to show this unified cabinet and
(21:38):
these unified response to this consequential compromise.
Lindsay Chervinsky (21:43):
Well that's very good leadership. He had some very good
models in that regard, because that was both a Washington
tactic and a Jefferson tactic. And we know that he
learned a great deal from Jefferson. I think that Monroe
certainly had among the most interesting career of any president.
He was everywhere. He was a soldier in the Revolution,
(22:04):
he was there at a crossing the Delaware, he was injured.
He held all these different positions, he served across the globe.
I mean, he just did everything. If you read his letters, now,
to be fair, I've spent time in a lot of
the letters of a lot of the Founding generation, and
if you go from like John Adams or John Quincy
(22:25):
Adams to James Monroe, he's boring his dirt. And it's
not totally his fault because it's in comparison, but you know,
it's just there's not a whole lot of personalities sometimes
in that text, and the Adamses do not have that problem.
So that's generally where I'm coming from.
Bob Crawford (22:42):
Now.
Lindsay Chervinsky (22:42):
I will say Monroe had the very great sense to
appoint to John Quincy Adams a Secretary of State, which
is one of the all time great appointments as a president.
So we give him a lot of credit for that,
and he deserves a lot of credit for that. I
do think by the time he had become president he
had moderated a little bit. He was very rared earlier
in his career, and he had the good sense to
(23:03):
try and kind of be an even keel and that's
I think required in any sort of president. You cannot
be the hot head. You cannot be the person flying
off the handle. Although I think we did discuss that
he almost got into a duel with one of his
cabinet members.
Bob Crawford (23:17):
He did, Crawford, Yeah, and that was a lot of
duels actually, which I he was quick to pick up
the fire poker. He was quick. He was quick.
Lindsay Chervinsky (23:27):
Yeah. Well, and he almost got into a duel with Hamilton.
And I think that he was, you know, in a
lot of ways, largely responsible for the Reynolds pamphlet. So
he has some marks against him. But he pointed John
Quincy Adams's secretary of State, and this must remain a
plus in his call.
Bob Crawford (23:43):
My two favorite things that I've learned about James Monroe
are one that he well, he was a great branding
expert the era of good feelings. Good branding, yes, very
good branding, brilliant And he didn't write that phrase, but
I mean he kind of tried to live up to it,
it seems to me. And also he wore his breeches,
his revolutionary war clothes. Apparently, you know, up until when
(24:05):
he died, he has fashion changed. He's like the old
the which I will I am moving into that time
of my life as well. But it's like the old men.
It seems like older men they pick an era of
their life where they were comfortable and they just stick
with those clothes. So Monroe did that and I can
really appreciate that. Okay, as we wrap up here, I'm
(24:30):
thinking about any other July fourth deaths or any other coincidences.
So one I think of is Zachary Taylor, who didn't
die on the fourth, but it seems like he may
have gotten sick on the fourth. He died on the ninth,
I believe July.
Lindsay Chervinsky (24:47):
Yes, that is certainly true. Another example, and this is
not really explicitly presidential, but it's another kind of moment
where as soon as you feel like the United States
really has fate on its side, which is that both
the battles at Gettysburg and the Siege of Vicksburg, which
were two huge pivotal turning points in the Civil War
(25:09):
that really ensured a Union victory, both occurred on July fourth,
and obviously there was a lot of death involved with
both of those things. So that is the connection.
Bob Crawford (25:20):
I've been talking to Lindsay Schervinsky, a presidential historian and
a director of the George Washington Presidential Library. She's also
the author of the book Making the Presidency, John Adams
and the Presidents That Forded the Republic. Lindsey, thank you
so much for an amazing conversation today.
Lindsay Chervinsky (25:41):
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Bob Crawford (25:45):
You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of
iHeart Podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show's executive producer
is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are Jordan
Runtall and English original music composed by me Bob Crawford.
Special thanks to Joseph in Minnesota for his question. Please
(26:09):
keep in touch. Our email is Americanhistory Hotline at gmail
dot com. If you like the show, please tell your
friends and leave us a review. In Apple Podcasts, I'm
your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to hit me up
on social media to ask a history question or to
let me know what you think of the show. You
(26:30):
can find me at Bob Crawford Base. Thanks so much
for listening, See you next week.
Hey there, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in
to our first episode of American History Hotline. If you
like the show, please help spread the word by telling
your friends or leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts.
If you have any comments or questions, send us an
email to American History Hotline at gmail dot com. We're
(00:22):
reading every email so it'll get seen. Okay, on with
the show. You've reached American History Hotline.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
You asked the.
Bob Crawford (00:33):
Question what is political technology?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
George Washington really cut down at churchree.
Lindsay Chervinsky (00:38):
JK Malon Monroe having a fair We get the answers.
Bob Crawford (00:41):
I'm so glad you asked me this question.
Lindsay Chervinsky (00:43):
This is such a ridiculous story that we tell ourselves
because we don't want to know the real story.
Bob Crawford (00:48):
Leave a message. Hey, there are American History Hotliners. Your
host Bob Crawford here, happy to be joining you again
for our first episode of a ma American History Hotline.
You're the ones with the questions. I'm a guy trying
to get you some answers. The best way to get
us a question is to record a video or a
(01:09):
voice memo on your phone and email it to Americanhistory
Hotline at gmail dot com. That's Americanhistory Hotline at gmail
dot com. And remember we are the American History Hotline.
I love talking about the Bolshevik Revolution as much as
the next guy, but there's plenty to talk about on
(01:30):
this continent. Okay. Today's question is about our founding fathers.
And here to help me answer this question is Lindsey Shavinsky,
a presidential historian and the executive director of the George
Washington Presidential Library. She's also the author of the book
Making the Presidency, John Adams, and the Precedents That Forged
(01:53):
the Republic. Lindsay Shavinsky, thank you so much for joining
us today.
Lindsay Chervinsky (01:58):
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Bob Crawford (02:00):
Okay, Lindsey, I'm hoping you can help us answer this
question we got from a listener.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Hi, this is Joseph from Eden Prairie, Minnesota. I heard
that both Thomas Jefferson and John Adams died on the
fiftieth anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
That sounds a little convenient. Did this really happen or
is it patriotic folklore?
Lindsay Chervinsky (02:27):
I love this question because it really gets at the
fact that this is such a ridiculous story that it
feels like it's made up and it's fact, but in truth,
the truth is stranger than fiction. And yes, indeed, John
Adams and Thomas Jefferson both died on July fourth, fifty
years to the day from the Declaration of Independence. I
(02:48):
would then add five years later James Munro also died
on July fourth, So if you're a Founder, you probably
had to start getting pretty nervous when July fourth rolled around.
Bob Crawford (02:58):
Well, so, yeah, I did a little reading into this
as well, and it seems like James Madison, he died
on June twenty eighth, eighteen thirty six, he didn't quite
make it, do you think now. I've read that his
dying words were his niece maybe asked him what was
the matter, and he said, I've just had a change
(03:20):
of mind or something to that extent, and he died.
So he died so close. And the three other Founder
presidents they all landed on the fourth. What's up with
James Madison?
Lindsay Chervinsky (03:33):
So I've heard mixed reports. Some historians think that he
actually really didn't want to die on July fourth, because
it would have started to get almost like cliche and
sort of ridiculous, and he didn't want to either tread
on Jefferson's memory or be a part of that. I'm
not totally sure what the reason, but that he didn't
want to be and so he sort of refused anything
(03:57):
that would allow him to perhaps linger. Other reports suggest
that he was very aware of it, but there wasn't
any intention in terms of either trying to make it
or not make it. But I think that this entire
conversation gets at the fact that this is just such
a bizarre occurrence, and it was very much apparent to
(04:18):
people at the time too. They were immediately aware of
the anniversary and how extraordinary it was that this happened.
Bob Crawford (04:25):
Okay, so let's talk about Jefferson and Adams to start.
Jefferson was eighty three, Adams was ninety who died first.
Lindsay Chervinsky (04:35):
So Jefferson died first. He died in the late morning,
and he was quite intentional about really trying to make
sure he made it until July fourth, and the days
leading up to his death, he was asking people regularly
what time it was and what day it was, and
so he had a sense for the dramatic, and I
think he wanted that flare to close out his life.
(04:57):
And John Adams, who was equally dramatic and also enjoyed
a good element of symbolism. I don't know that he
was necessarily as aware of what date it was, or
there isn't a record suggesting that he was asking as
much in the lead up to it. But what's interesting
is that John Adams thought that Jefferson had survived because
(05:18):
of course news travels slowly, so it's not like they
could get a telephone call. So Jefferson died first. He
died in the morning.
Bob Crawford (05:25):
Yes, So it is rumored that John Adams's last words
were Thomas Jefferson survives. Yeah.
Lindsay Chervinsky (05:34):
And I think there's actually fairly good record keeping about this.
You know, the Adams were pretty notorious about writing a
lot of things down, and then they kept a lot
of things, not everything. They did burn and do some
curating of letters. But if you go to their National
Park Service house, which I highly recommend, you can see
that the family were sometimes a little bit horders and
(05:56):
were very aware of their historical place, and so they
certainly would have marked and noted his final words.
Bob Crawford (06:04):
So, as I recall, it was George Washington Adams, who
was John Quincy's son, who was maybe there with John
Adams when he died and George Washington Adams, he wasn't
the most reliable Adams.
Lindsay Chervinsky (06:19):
That's true. So one of the sad things about the
Adams family is there was a history of what we
would consider today to be alcoholism, and it really plagued
multiple generations. There was also a history of in each
generation there tended to be one really extraordinary son and
then other sons who struggled to live up to that legacy.
(06:42):
And George Washington Adams had the unfortunate burden of being
the son of a president, the grandson of a president,
and he was named after George Washington, so not too
many people would be able to really live up to
those expectations that put that name on him, and he
really struggled with it and ended up probably committing suicide
(07:05):
while his father was president. He went overboard on a
ship and his body. It took a while for it
to be found, but by all accounts, he probably took
his life.
Bob Crawford (07:15):
You mentioned the evidence when John Adams uttered these now
legendary last words. When we talk about the evidence, what
would that be, what would be those sources?
Lindsay Chervinsky (07:28):
It's a great question. So there could be a couple
of things. The family did have a habit of writing diaries,
so it's possible that family members wrote things down in
diaries or shared it with other family members verbally, and
then they wrote it down in diaries. We could also
be looking for letters, so correspondence was mostly done with
quill and parchment at that time, and the Adams were
(07:51):
notorious letter writers, so they usually would have described a
scene like this in the letter writing if we were
looking for evidence that was maybe a little bit less reliable.
Sometimes newspaper reportings of a death of a famous person
would perhaps describe their last moments, but newspapers were known
to embellish with a great deal of flair, and we're
(08:13):
not necessarily reliable sources at the time, so we would
probably be wanting to look for contemporary, meaning sources that
were created around that time, rather than trying to create
a legacy that were written by the person who was
either living in the moment or very close to that person.
Bob Crawford (08:34):
This is American History Hotline. I'm your host, Bob Crawford,
and a quick note before we continue, please send us
your burning questions about American history. Record yourself using the
voice memo app on your phone and email it to
American History Hotline at gmail dot com. That's Americanhistory Hotline
at gmail dot com. Now back to my conversation with
(08:58):
Lindsey Shervinsky, a presidential historian and author of the book
Making the Presidency, John Adams and the Presidents that forged
the Republic. We're talking about the patriotic deaths of John
Adams and Thomas Jefferson, who both died on the fourth
of July. So, Lindsey, leading up to the fiftieth anniversary
(09:18):
of the signing of the Declaration of Independence on July fourth,
eighteen twenty six, Jefferson and Adams had both issued statements.
They were obviously both invited to come to d C
for the celebration, but everybody knew neither of them were
really in any condition to travel.
Lindsay Chervinsky (09:37):
That's right. So ninety years old today is really living
an extraordinary long life. But before the advent of anesthesia
or modern medicine, you have to be really lucky to
live ninety years in the early nineteenth century, and so
these were very old men and they were not in
a position to travel, especially because again you don't have
(09:59):
first class travel like you would have today. There's no
private jet that's going to go pick up a former president.
There's you know, at best, you're going to have a steamship,
which is going to include all of the things that
sometimes see travel includes. So they were not going anywhere,
but when they were invited, they obviously had a very
clear sense of this moment in history. They had a
(10:19):
very clear sense of the nation's history and the importance,
especially because they were among the last founders to survive,
and so there was a sense in the nation that
this really important generation was passing on and was passing
the torch, and it was no longer there to guide
the nation. And at this point, the context is so
important because the nation had just gone through the first
(10:43):
real crisis, the Missouri Crisis in eighteen twenty, when Congress
was trying to figure out what to do with slavery
in the new territories in the West and whether to
permit expansion or not. They were very aware of this crisis.
They wrote about it together. They shared their fears for
the future of the nation, and so they both gave
(11:04):
statements hoping to provide reassurance, to speak to the future,
to speak to future generations, and to kind of give
their blessing to the nation's survival.
Bob Crawford (11:15):
Thomas Jefferson said of the Missouri crisis, it was the
It woke in him like a fire bell in the night,
and it was the knell of the union. And that
was in a letter to a main congressman, John Holmes
I believe his name was. Was that letter made public
(11:36):
during Jefferson's lifetime, I.
Lindsay Chervinsky (11:38):
Don't think so. I don't think the letter was made public.
So Jefferson was very careful about what he said later
in life about slavery, partially because a lot of his
earlier comments had been used against him or had been
very highly publicized. He rarely talked about it with friends.
They knew not to bring it up. Even ardent abolitionists
(11:59):
like the Marquis Delte rarely brought up slavery to Jefferson
because it was not a topic of conversation that was permitted.
So when he did discuss this crisis, which was clearly
over the issue of slavery, it tended to be a
private discussion. He did not want to make the crisis
any worse. The one exception is John Adams. John Adams
wrote to Jefferson while this was all happening that he
(12:21):
was glad that the nation had resolved it. He obviously
understood that this was probably going to continue to be
a source of division, because how can you have a
line across the country where one side feels one way
and one side feels another. But that he hoped that
he could leave it to a higher power to judge.
And he's quite explicit in mentioning slavery in this, and
(12:43):
he's not condemning his friend outright. He's saying, basically, God
will be the judge, which Jefferson probably knew what that meant,
what John Adams actually because he knew what John Adams
felt about slavery. But I think it's pretty remarkable that
John Adams was willing to say that to Jefferson.
Bob Crawford (12:58):
I have to think if if this happened today. This
couldn't happen today, because you know, they would be hundreds
of years old. But if something like this happened today,
this amazing coincidence, that this really this this providential moment,
this moment where the two of the architects of the declaration.
(13:19):
I think Adams was part of the committee, at least
we know that a lot of it came from Jefferson's
own hand. The fact that these two guys died on
the same day. Fifty years after this, then one of
the most important founding documents was written, might lend itself
to conspiracy theories? Were there any.
Lindsay Chervinsky (13:36):
Yes, there were both at the time and sense. So
there were initially people who did not believe the reports,
and that was understandable because sometimes newspapers reported that people
died when they hadn't. People were reporting that Washington died
all the time when he was president, and he was
he would sit there and he'd be like, no, I'm
not still here, you know, still live, So you know,
(13:58):
the newspapers were unreliable. So initially people didn't really believe it,
and then people started to question, well, were people intentionally
keeping them alive? Were people like Hastenian along? People even
wrote at the time about euthanasia that one of them
had been euthanized so that it would happen on the
same day. And there's no evidence to suggest that there's
no evidence to suggest that the family had nefarious purposes
(14:22):
in supporting them and caring for them. But right away
the American tendency to embrace conspiracy reared its creative head.
Bob Crawford (14:31):
And how did the news get out and how long
did it take for for that news to travel You
say Jefferson passed first and then Adams, and how long
did it take for that news to become public?
Lindsay Chervinsky (14:44):
The news regionally passed fairly quickly, so by the end
of July fourth, most people in Boston knew that John
Adams had died, and that was because they could send
a messenger pretty quickly, and so right away the newspapers
started to go in to their morning custom, which meant
that they would have these black bars in between the
columns and around the page to signify mourning rather than
(15:08):
having like a black armband. So right away people in
Boston knew about Adams, same with people in Charlottesville about
Thomas Jefferson. The message was shared and it then of
course word of mouth and through through letters and things
like that and fast postwriters at the time. It wasn't
until many days later that the news started to reach
(15:29):
across the country, and in Delaware, I think it was
July twelfth that they started printing stories about both dying
on the same time. So it took I think over
a week for it to get all the way across
the country. And it's just a good reminder for us
that when we think about this moment, we think about
(15:49):
it on July fourth, but the country was actually experiencing
it over several weeks as the news was getting to
various places.
Bob Crawford (15:57):
So you talked about the memorials printed in the newspaper,
but what were some of the big memorials that took
place in the communities around the nation, And how was
this moment mourned in the White House because the son
of John Adams was the president at the time.
Lindsay Chervinsky (16:15):
Yeah, and John Quincy Adams had learned that his father
was failing and tried to rush home and didn't get
there in time, which he was pretty crushed about. And
in fact, every year afterwards in his life he always
marked in his diary on July fourth that it was
a bittersweet day because he both celebrated the declaration of
Independence but also mourned the passing of his father. So
(16:38):
it was a I think that's always a really nice
demonstration about how much they meant to each other in
terms of the memorials. So at the time, of course,
especially because it's summer, you have to bury someone right away.
They don't have refrigeration. There's no delaying at for a
state funeral. So they had local ceremonies. They were both
buried near home. Community members participated, but it was not
(17:01):
a national experience because again there was this urgency and
a delay in terms of the timing. Over the next
several weeks, the newspapers tended to print memorials for both
of them and recognizing both their shared experience and their
shared contributions and their long, lengthy tenures, and often would
harken back at this point because it was known that
(17:22):
Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence,
but that John Adams had been involved. Of course, hearkening
back to the starting of that partnership, and some of
the other areas in which they were close sometimes would
hold mock funerals. That was something that was done at
the time where if you had someone that people wanted
to celebrate, Washington was the primary example. I think after
(17:43):
Washington died there were over four hundred mock funerals across
the country. There were some of those that were held,
but not in the same numbers. But what's interesting is
you can kind of see once the entire country was
learning about both of their deaths, was a shift to
sort of celebrating both of them as opposed to like
no one in Virginia was just celebrating Adams and no
(18:05):
one in Massachusetts was just celebrating Jefferson. It did tend
to be initially regional and then sort of a dual celebration.
Bob Crawford (18:13):
Just having this moment of realization that I'm talking to
someone who wrote a book about presidential deaths, and fury.
Lindsay Chervinsky (18:22):
Or edited one anyway, edited one, yes one well, and
you know, one of my favorite chapters in that book,
which is called Mourning the Presidents, was about an aspect
of Jefferson's death that we don't necessarily think about, which
is what happened to his estate, and his death triggered
(18:46):
a lot of mourning in the enslaved community, not necessarily
because they were sad that he himself had died, but
because it meant that their lives were going to be
torn apart. And so after Jefferson's death, very quickly his
estate went into bankruptcy because he was severely in debt,
and it triggered an auction of the enslaved individuals held
(19:08):
at Monticello, and most people were sold to the Deep
South and never saw their family again. So that is
a part of Jefferson's death that we always have to
mention because it did have such huge implications.
Bob Crawford (19:21):
Thank you for bringing that up. So we talked a
lot about Jefferson and Adams. We even, you know, spent
a moment with Madison. Once again. James Monroe gets short shrift,
you know. John Quincy Adams said that he didn't have
the essentially to paraphrase, that he didn't have the most
agile mind. Monroe. I've been spending a lot of time
(19:44):
with him lately. I think he worked really hard to
get where he got, but he did have a kind
of reputation of being the least of the founding fathers,
particularly to ascend to the presidency. So just talk for
a minute about Monroe and the opinion of him that
you research has kind of taught you.
Lindsay Chervinsky (20:02):
Like when you say that he worked really hard, that's
like saying someone has a really nice personality.
Bob Crawford (20:09):
I didn't mean it that way. Here's an example. Here's
an example. Okay, you got the Missouri crisis and Adams
goes in there one day to the meet with he's
just meeting with the president, and he brings it. Adams
brings it up and he's like kind of getting worked up.
The way I read the account, he's getting worked up,
and he's like saying, Hey, this is going down, and
(20:30):
this could happen from it, and this might happen, and
this might happen. And Monroe's kind of like, yeah, it's
gonna be okay, I'm not worried about it. And Adams
walks out and says, either he's completely aloof or he's
working behind the scenes and he's not telling me everything
he knows about the situation. And then when you read
it about it from Monroe's perspective, Hey was his secretary
(20:54):
or maybe son in law, and Hay was in contact
with the Virginia legislature, and Roe was kind of trying
to work deals behind the scenes and work the compromise
behind the scenes. So you know, maybe he was just
a little more agile then he's gotten credit for. And
also when it came when this when the Missouri compromise
(21:17):
was signed and the bill landed on his desk, he
brought his cabinet to the President's house and he says, look,
I want us all to be on the same page
about this for posterity, and here's a couple questions, and
I want you guys to put your answers in writing,
and they really work to all be on the same page.
And when Roe wanted to show this unified cabinet and
(21:38):
these unified response to this consequential compromise.
Lindsay Chervinsky (21:43):
Well that's very good leadership. He had some very good
models in that regard, because that was both a Washington
tactic and a Jefferson tactic. And we know that he
learned a great deal from Jefferson. I think that Monroe
certainly had among the most interesting career of any president.
He was everywhere. He was a soldier in the Revolution,
(22:04):
he was there at a crossing the Delaware, he was injured.
He held all these different positions, he served across the globe.
I mean, he just did everything. If you read his letters, now,
to be fair, I've spent time in a lot of
the letters of a lot of the Founding generation, and
if you go from like John Adams or John Quincy
(22:25):
Adams to James Monroe, he's boring his dirt. And it's
not totally his fault because it's in comparison, but you know,
it's just there's not a whole lot of personalities sometimes
in that text, and the Adamses do not have that problem.
So that's generally where I'm coming from.
Bob Crawford (22:42):
Now.
Lindsay Chervinsky (22:42):
I will say Monroe had the very great sense to
appoint to John Quincy Adams a Secretary of State, which
is one of the all time great appointments as a president.
So we give him a lot of credit for that,
and he deserves a lot of credit for that. I
do think by the time he had become president he
had moderated a little bit. He was very rared earlier
in his career, and he had the good sense to
(23:03):
try and kind of be an even keel and that's
I think required in any sort of president. You cannot
be the hot head. You cannot be the person flying
off the handle. Although I think we did discuss that
he almost got into a duel with one of his
cabinet members.
Bob Crawford (23:17):
He did, Crawford, Yeah, and that was a lot of
duels actually, which I he was quick to pick up
the fire poker. He was quick. He was quick.
Lindsay Chervinsky (23:27):
Yeah. Well, and he almost got into a duel with Hamilton.
And I think that he was, you know, in a
lot of ways, largely responsible for the Reynolds pamphlet. So
he has some marks against him. But he pointed John
Quincy Adams's secretary of State, and this must remain a
plus in his call.
Bob Crawford (23:43):
My two favorite things that I've learned about James Monroe
are one that he well, he was a great branding
expert the era of good feelings. Good branding, yes, very
good branding, brilliant And he didn't write that phrase, but
I mean he kind of tried to live up to it,
it seems to me. And also he wore his breeches,
his revolutionary war clothes. Apparently, you know, up until when
(24:05):
he died, he has fashion changed. He's like the old
the which I will I am moving into that time
of my life as well. But it's like the old men.
It seems like older men they pick an era of
their life where they were comfortable and they just stick
with those clothes. So Monroe did that and I can
really appreciate that. Okay, as we wrap up here, I'm
(24:30):
thinking about any other July fourth deaths or any other coincidences.
So one I think of is Zachary Taylor, who didn't
die on the fourth, but it seems like he may
have gotten sick on the fourth. He died on the ninth,
I believe July.
Lindsay Chervinsky (24:47):
Yes, that is certainly true. Another example, and this is
not really explicitly presidential, but it's another kind of moment
where as soon as you feel like the United States
really has fate on its side, which is that both
the battles at Gettysburg and the Siege of Vicksburg, which
were two huge pivotal turning points in the Civil War
(25:09):
that really ensured a Union victory, both occurred on July fourth,
and obviously there was a lot of death involved with
both of those things. So that is the connection.
Bob Crawford (25:20):
I've been talking to Lindsay Schervinsky, a presidential historian and
a director of the George Washington Presidential Library. She's also
the author of the book Making the Presidency, John Adams
and the Presidents That Forded the Republic. Lindsey, thank you
so much for an amazing conversation today.
Lindsay Chervinsky (25:41):
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Bob Crawford (25:45):
You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of
iHeart Podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show's executive producer
is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are Jordan
Runtall and English original music composed by me Bob Crawford.
Special thanks to Joseph in Minnesota for his question. Please
(26:09):
keep in touch. Our email is Americanhistory Hotline at gmail
dot com. If you like the show, please tell your
friends and leave us a review. In Apple Podcasts, I'm
your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to hit me up
on social media to ask a history question or to
let me know what you think of the show. You
(26:30):
can find me at Bob Crawford Base. Thanks so much
for listening, See you next week.
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