July 23, 2025 • 31 mins
Sir Mix-a-Lot can't lie about liking big butts. And George Washington can't lie about cutting down cherry trees. Or can he? According to Washington biographer Alexis Coe, this is "the greatest fan fiction ever told" (the tree thing! Mix-a-Lot truly loves big butts).
It turns out America's first president is a lightning rod for myths and misinformation. So, we're putting in our wooden teeth (or are they not wood?) and taking a bite of the reality sandwich as we sort truth from fiction in George Washington's legacy.
GUEST: Alexis Coe, an award-winning, New York Times bestselling presidential historian, and a senior fellow at New America, a bi-partisan think tank. Her books include, You Never Forget Your First: A Biography of George of Washington and the upcoming Young Jack: A Biography of John F. Kennedy, 1917-1957 (scheduled for 2026).
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Bob Crawford (00:03):
You've reached American History Hotline.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
You asked the questions, we get the answers, leave a methode.
Bob Crawford (00:11):
Hey, there are American History Hotliners. Your host, Bob Crawford here,
happy to be joining you again for another episode of
American History Hotline. You're the ones with the questions. I'm
a guy trying to get you some answers and keep
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(00:34):
dot com. That's American History Hotline all one word at
gmail dot com. And remember we're American History Hotline. I
love ancient Egypt as much as the next guy, but
there's plenty to talk about on this continent. Okay. Today's
question is about the man, the myth, the legend, George Washington,
(01:00):
father of our country. Here to help me answer this
question today is Alexis co a New York Times best
selling presidential historian and author of the book You Never
Forget Your First, a biography of George Washington. Thank you
for joining me today.
Alexis Coe (01:16):
I'm happy to be here.
Bob Crawford (01:17):
Okay, here's the question. We're hoping you can help us answer.
Alexis Coe (01:22):
Hi, this is Vegan from Turkey. I have a question
for you.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Did George Washington really cut down a cherry tree and
then tell the truth or is there a myth?
Alexis Coe (01:31):
I love this story and I love this question. It
is by far the greatest fan fiction ever invented because
it was a lie, and I'm sorry to tell you
so were the wooden teeth. But as an aside, the
best thing that a reader has ever given me, because
readers often they send things, They show up to readings
(01:56):
or events with presents, which is great. The best thing
I've ever received was a reader that gave me a
print out of a ven diagram with sir mix a
lot and George Washington and the venn diagram of he
could never tell a lie, and I like big butts.
It was so good. So here's the thing. He could
(02:22):
very much tell a lie. And we know this without
even fact checking the story. First of all, if you've
ever spoken to a child, the concept of truth is
very loose because their concept of the world is very loose,
and what's possible, So it's surely possible that he lied.
But George Washington to say that he could never tell
(02:44):
a lie, is denying him one of the great passions
of his life, which was spying. He was a spymaster
during the war and he loved it. I mean he
very you know, he doesn't come alive. A woman from
the Massachusetts Historical Society once said to me, I don't
know how you can spend so much time with him.
He's so vanilla. But he loved spying, and so I
(03:05):
really think that we have to do him the honor
of letting him have that. The reason this story exists, yes,
is because of a man with a great name, Parson Weims.
Bob Crawford (03:22):
I was going to ask you about Parson Weims, like
tell us about this man. And because this isn't the
only story about George Washington that became legend that is
maybe not true from this that came from Parson Weeds.
Because I was watching the the inauguration of the current
president and Cardinal tim Timothy Dolan, who I have great
(03:47):
respect for as a man of God, he was he
was He had a speech and he talked about George
Washington at Valley Forge in the snow. We've all seen
the painting praying to God. And isn't that also a
Parson Weims invention?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
No.
Alexis Coe (04:05):
Well, okay, so here here's the thing. We can blame
Parson Weams for so many things, and I want to
talk about how these lies happened, because it was sort
of like a rollout. It happened over time. My first
job out of grad school was being as a research
carriator at the New York Public Library in Bryant Park,
which people might remember from Ghostbusters. It has the two
Lions in the front, and we have Eddy every volume
(04:28):
of Parson Weims in there, and it's like watching Pinocchio's
nose grow. It's fantastic. As far as the art of biography,
Parson Weims amazing name right, And I just want to
point out I also I wrote something about I think
for MSNBC. Now I can't even recall. It's been a
whirlwind of a few months. But we know that Washington
(04:53):
didn't kneel to pray at Valley Forge the way. We
know that he told a lie because that painting we've
all seen it was painted decades after Washington died, and
I have to tell you there are no polaroids at
the time, so we don't have any photographs. We also
(05:14):
know that Washington was a deist and deists do not believe.
It's a set it and forget it kind of narrative
here as far as the philosophy, So Washington did not
believe that there was any God to speak to. He
certainly wasn't going to kneel in the cold snow he
was It's an impossibility. And that's a projection of what
(05:39):
the man who spoke at Trump's inauguration wants the country
to believe about itself. That this is that we are
a Christian nation. And of course you can be a
Christian and you can be a patriot and not believe
that we're a Christian nation. Because the first treaty that
America ever made under John Adams, the first line of
it is we are not a Christian nation. So it's
(06:02):
pretty convincing to me. But this story is the same
in this way. So Parson Williams, an itinerant minister, a bookseller,
are kind of like rogue fabulous who's going around the
country trying to make you know Washington he hates.
Bob Crawford (06:19):
So what year is this?
Alexis Coe (06:21):
This is so Parson Williams arrives on the scene a
year before Washington dies and Washington's left office, and he
does so with the explicit intent of writing a book
about Washington. He doesn't have any connection to Washington. He
doesn't have access to his papers, which Washington is busy editing,
and when I say editing, I mean getting rid of stuff.
(06:41):
But of course he has no idea what we will
like and dislike, so he gets sort of probably the
wrong things and definitely keeps the wrong things. And Parson
Williams is there, he's already started, and then Washington dies
and he's like fantastic, because the nation doesn't know what
to do without Washington. He is the great unifier. They
didn't know who. The reason the presidency and the powers
(07:03):
of the presidency are so vague is because they assumed
Washington would be the president and he had given up power,
which was considered, you know, sort of unfathomable. It had happened,
of course, but it was really easy to understand and
conceive it that it would not happen, and so it
was this great thing. So so Parson Williams is like fantastic.
He writes to his publisher and he says, this book,
(07:24):
this book is going to sell like flax seeds, because
flax sees are flying out that I know, I use
it all the time. It doesn't really hit but I
love it. And once in a while you have a
reaction like you just had, so you know, you you
the people who get it, they'll love you for it,
right right. So Parson Williams first on the scene, and
I don't know if history is written by the victors.
(07:45):
I'm not sure I believe that, but I do believe
it is written by the first responders. And Parson Welliams realizes, Okay,
this country is desperate to know who they are. Now
in his defense, there's no study of history that's formalized
in this way. There are historians, there are people who
(08:06):
write history, and of course, but there's no sort of standard,
there are no conferences. Everyone goes to. It is like
the wild West of scholarship and the study of history,
even biography that is like relatively recent. And so he
is going to do whatever he wants here, and boy
(08:28):
does he. The cherry See story is not in the
first volume. There are lots of good stories. But the
thing is the stories that we're talked about. Because not
everyone is literate, you also have to remember so these stories,
these books are being read in pubs the same way
all the parties and newspapers are and the stories that
everyone keeps repeating are the great myths stories, because any
(08:53):
way that you can paint it that Washington was born pure,
the same way the valid Forge story tells us that
he was a Christian who believed that he could pray
to God. Well, that means that we're all good. That
means we're all Christian. That means we can all have
this relationship that a lot of people increasingly want, right.
And it's funny because at the time there were not
(09:16):
as many churches as you would assume. There had been
a great drop after the British left, So we're not
necessarily we just do not know who we are, and
so why not have this founding father who is superhuman
in every single way, including his goodness?
Bob Crawford (09:33):
We are in between the great awakenings, right, We're in
between the Great awakenings?
Alexis Coe (09:39):
All right?
Bob Crawford (09:40):
Today, my guest is Alexis co, a New York Times
best selling presidential historian and author of the book You
Never Forget Your First Biography of George Washington. We're talking
about the real George Washington. Was he cutting down cherry
trees or chomping on corn cakes with wooden teeth or
(10:00):
are those just stories speaking of stories, speaking of research,
speaking of historians like yourself. Before we get back to Washington,
I got to ask you, you are one of the
few women to ever write about George Washington? Is that true?
Alexis Coe (10:19):
I am in the last one hundred years, and I
didn't know this until years into writing the project. And
indeed I am somehow the first woman historian to write
a biography without a husband as a co author or
focusing on let's say, Martha Washington, in over one hundred years,
(10:44):
And it shows, It shows.
Bob Crawford (10:48):
Well, yes, because like one of the things I remember
about your book that I'll probably never forget is you
are taught in the book. I think early in the
book you're talking about the what we would the historiography
of Washington, right, And all these men have written written
about Washington, and they all all these men seem to
(11:09):
be and I think this fits in with the myth
conversation with the size of his thighs. All the men
who've written about his about Washington were fascinated and couldn't
get over the size of Washington's thighs. Can you just
talk about that before we get on the teeth.
Alexis Coe (11:26):
Yes, here's the thing I understand it. I have told
you before that I have a pretty serious crush on
John Andre. It's the most traitorous thing about me. He
was the man who recruited Benedict Arnold, and he was
executed for that sin by Washington. Everyone was begging him
not to because John Andre, John Andre could really he
(11:49):
had appeal even in his own days. Hamilton was just
crushed by this, but Washington was. His thighs were nice.
I'm not saying they weren't nice. I've looked at them
all now to compare. But the thing is that I
noticed when I read these biographies is that they all
(12:10):
start out the same way, as if like everyone took
an oath that we're going to proceed in the same manner,
and they say, okay, we're gonna say he's too marble
to be real. He's in danger of just becoming a
sort of nothing burger of a founder. Because and this
is true, Jefferson has those beautiful words, Lincoln as well.
(12:30):
Everyone seems to have something to ground them. Except for Washington.
You know, you don't really get a sense of his personality,
except that he might have been so perfect and maybe
too perfect to be that interesting, But then they all
talk about they don't really get us any closer to him,
and in part because they spent a lot of time
telling us how like manly he was. And what is
(12:53):
so perplexing to me is I can't point you toward
a single thing I've ever read suggests he's not manly.
So when someone goes really far to say something, you wonder, Okay,
what are they covering up here? Not only do they
talk about how he's mainly, but they talk about how
he's virile. And there's no evidence for that except that
(13:17):
he wanted. When he was about eighteen or nineteen, he
basically wrote to the father of every rich fourteen fifteen
sixty year old girl in any colony, but particularly Virginia,
and claimed to be in love because he wanted to
move up in the world. He when he was about nineteen,
probably became sterile from a trip abroad. He got sick.
(13:40):
He often got sick, so he probably couldn't have children.
Bob Crawford (13:44):
What is that like? The rumor? One of the rumors
is that he became fertile after contracting smallpox as a teenager.
Alexis Coe (13:53):
Yes, this is he definitely got smallpox during his only
trip abroad with his half brother.
Bob Crawford (14:00):
Where did he go on that trip?
Alexis Coe (14:01):
He went to Barbados and he to you know, to
and he was quite taken with it. But he got sick.
He often got sick, carbuncle, he was blooded, ton, you
name it. He got sick. And there are no legitimate
heirs that we have ever encountered. Of course, people make
(14:22):
claims once in a while, but usually those claims do
add up to something, or they don't, and these have
never added up to anything. Martha had children when they met,
two young children, a two year old and a four
year old from her previous husband, And what was interesting
to me is that they would talk about how well
she probably couldn't have anymore, because you know, if you
(14:44):
have if you have a hard childbirth, you can't have
more children. That is true, but there is nothing to
suggest she had a difficult childbirth. If anything, it seemed
like they were quite easy and she recovered quickly, and
she could have more. In an early America, they were
not as obsessed with these biological connect and so it
was just not a big deal. But so they go
out of their way to kind of blame her, and
(15:06):
then they talk about his body in a way that
just made me uncomfortable, like am I reading I'm a
romance novel. I get it. He's mainly I'm not arguing
with this. It's fine. I don't care if he could
have kids or not. He seemed like he was a busy.
He was like a helicopter parent. So I never question
his feelings of paternity towards these children, and not just
these children, but all the other children he raised.
Bob Crawford (15:28):
So let's move from the thighs up to the mouth.
Alexis Coe (15:33):
Keep your eyes where it matters. Oh but they talk
about his rippling jaw too, so okay, but we'll keep it.
We'll keep it perfect.
Bob Crawford (15:38):
Let's go teeth and then we can talk jawline if
we need to.
Alexis Coe (15:43):
Yes, so the teeth. This is interesting because when I
first encountered this. Now I live in the Hudson Valley,
but this was pre pandemic, before I own two saws,
and I thought, Okay, I don't know a lot about wood,
but I do. You know you're not supposed to get
it wet, right, because if you get it wet, it expands.
(16:06):
Eventually it will start to deteriorate. You know, if you've
ever been to anyone's house and put a glass down
on yeah. But also those founding fathers were gossipy af
and so they would have talked about it, and they
love to cut each other down and not lie about it,
but sometimes they did, and they would have talked about this,
(16:28):
we would have known. And also it just is not
so it's not a suitable material for dentures and Washington,
there's no evidence to suggest you was some sort of
like innovator and early dentistry. But this is a story
again that we tell ourselves because we don't want to
know the real story. So just like we know that
Washington could tell a lie, just like we know that
(16:50):
Washington was a deist so he didn't pray at Ballet Forge,
we also know that Washington's teeth were not made of
wood and not the real story here and the story
that people still don't want to tell. So Saint Francis
Tavern in New York, in Lower Manhattan, where Washington had
his final meal after leaving New York after the war,
(17:12):
they still have a They have one of his sets
of dentures, and in the ID they say it was
made out of ivory, true, hippopotomus. True, his teeth maybe
obviously they were taken out for you know, they fell
out for a reason. By the time he was inaugurated,
he had like one left. But there's the other thing
that was in it, and that is what we don't
(17:33):
want to talk about, because it is not the story
we want to tell ourselves. What was it the teeth
of enslaved people. And this was not a practice he invented.
But what was interesting is Washington was very cheap. He
was land rich, cash poor. At first, he went to
(17:55):
a dentist to buy teeth, because that's what rich people did,
and they put them in the like very terrible early
contraptions they called dentures. But you know, we're just awful.
And you can see that in Washington's portrait he looks pained.
His smile changes in each one. That's because he was
really uncomfortable, and they changed the entire structure of his jaw.
(18:18):
The teeth at first he purchased, and there are ads
that this, you know, very stentist would put in the paper.
And then Washington realized who was selling their teeth? Who
sells things like teeth and organs and the people who
are desperate or exploited, And Washington enslaved hundreds of people
and so why pay top dollar, Why pay retail when
(18:41):
you can go whostsale. And so we know from his
ledgers and from his diaries that he paid people who
he enslaved for their teeth, and he paid them under
market value. We don't know how those teeth came out
of the mouth. We don't know if it was by choice.
We don't know if they fell out. We don't know
(19:02):
if these people who were often described by visitors to
Mount Vernon as being in you know, torn clothing and
in bad shape, and we know that they were very hungry.
We don't know. But we do know that they ended
up in Washington's ledger. He paid some money for them,
and then they went into his dentures. And that is
(19:25):
a story that there is still obviously a lot of
resistance to telling.
Bob Crawford (19:37):
This is American History Hotline. I'm your host Bob Crawford. Today,
my guest is Alexis co, a New York Times bestselling
presidential historian and the author of the book You Never
Forget Your First, a biography of George Washington. Today we're
talking about the myth and the facts of George Washington's
(19:57):
life as best as we can remember. Send us your
burning history questions, record yourself using the voice memo app
on your phone and email it to American History Hotline
at gmail dot com. That's American History Hotline all one
word at gmail dot com. Now back to the conversation. So,
(20:17):
while Washington was alive and shortly after his death, there
was a huge effort to deify him. Do we know
how he felt about it while he was still alive,
because he must have known, and I guess there's evidence
in his farewell address that he knew the power he
held and the fact that he gave up power willingly.
(20:40):
He must have known that was going to elevate him
in the minds of his fellow countrymen.
Alexis Coe (20:47):
Washington, I always say, wanted to be at the center
of his nation's story from the earliest age. Because his
father died when he was young. He became in the
head of his household when he was and he also
had to drop out of school fourteen, so he really
had a bit of a complex. He felt like he was,
(21:10):
you know, poorer than his half brothers, he was less educated.
This was true throughout his life with the Founders. You know,
they went to Harvard and William and Mary and all
these colleges. So he definitely felt like I'm out here
trying to prove something. But there are a couple moments
in his life that are really significant. Everyone always argues, oh,
this president, that president had an evolution. I don't believe
that's true with Washington, but I do believe he has
(21:32):
something that is really undervalued. And I could talk about
it all the time and I still don't feel like
I get the point across, which is he could be satisfied.
And so Washington when he left and he gave up power,
Sure he knew it had an effect that he just
wanted to get home before Christmas. He was super annoyed
by that point because you've been asking Jefferson, how do
you want me to do this? How do you want
(21:53):
me to do this? Because we're coming up with all
this stuff on the fly, right, we're trying to create
traditions and meaningful moments because now we're a country. Right,
It's one thing to fight the war. Now you have
to you have to country. And so he leaves and
he just wants to get home, and then Congress does
him dirty. They give Americans the right they basically waive
(22:18):
postage to send him letters. So then he has to
hire a bunch of people, and he hates. I really
can't emphasize enough how much he hates to spend money,
and so he he's annoyed. He builds like backstairs to
avoid people. The only time I would say that he
really enjoyed being famous was the word n agrarian society.
(22:43):
He is a nerd. He's a farming nerd, and he builds,
you know, barns with way too many sides. But he's
after a mule. He really wants a mule. But you
can't get a mule in America. You can't get it.
The king has forbidden it. It's a lead golf. And
he puts the word out kind of shamelessly. And then
(23:03):
he gets one, he gets two, he gets a you know,
he gets them and one dies. But he has like
a great time leasing out. So he's charging for this.
He's putting ads in the paper, like, you know, the
great General's mule. You want it, you gotta pay for it.
He that's the only time he's very excited about this
because he believes the mule is the future. And if
(23:24):
you've ever hung out with the mule, the mule is
the future. Like I would love a mule. Mules are
super friendly and so so he he does not like
being famous, but he's aware of it. At the same time,
Washington is one of those people. And this is this
is also another example of him. So he could be satisfied.
He did not want to be president. I don't believe
he said, oh, I can't possibly be general. But he'd
(23:45):
like stuffed himself in his old uniform and he was now,
you know, a much older man. So as we all know,
bodies changed after forty and he was like definitely changed.
Bob Crawford (23:54):
Right, And every time there was a something came a
crisis in the country, he was called carbon to make
a comeback. And that's what Adams did during the Yes,
the quasi war.
Alexis Coe (24:07):
Yes, he's always called and he's like and it's not
just that he's tired. He is. It's not just that
he's outlived every man in his family, which he has.
He's arthritic again he has by this time, if we're
talking about his after he's served two terms and left voluntarily,
there were no term limits because again we just can
trust him and figure, Okay, whatever he decides to do,
(24:29):
everyone will follow. That was true until it wasn't. That
was and I said that with FDR and with Trump.
So he is he's not excited. He calls going to
the inauguration, going to my funeral, and he said, I
have everything to lose, and he did. And so he's
exceptionally sensitive to criticism. And he is not happy about
(24:52):
rising partisanship because partisanship is as old as the country.
The North and the South were fighting as soon as
the or was over. It was over debts, it was
over where the capital should be, you name it. They
were fighting from the very beginning. And that of course partisanship, regionalism.
So he's not thrilled about being world famous. I wouldn't
(25:14):
say that he was loving it. He left and Jefferson
wrote that I've never met anyone who's more sensitive to criticism.
And I would agree with that as far as leaders.
Bob Crawford (25:25):
So, how much of what we know about Washington is
from the biography he's written about him?
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Know?
Bob Crawford (25:36):
How has his reputation been shaped over time to here
we are two hundred and fifty years later, almost two
hundred and fifty years later. How do we think of
him even today?
Alexis Coe (25:50):
I think I'm going to die on a lot of hills.
I think I could spend the rest of my life
explaining how these things never happened, and trying to get
you to wrap your head around the things that did happen,
the fun history like the spying, and also the difficult
history that makes us uncomfortable, like the one a judge
fact that yes, own a judge, but also hercules other
(26:13):
you know. He They like to say, oh, he never
sold someone he enslaved. Yes he did, and he not
sold them. He sold them to the Caribbean with the
life expectancy on a sugar plantation was you know, just
a few years past that point. And he said, this
guy's trouble, so he marked him right. This is a
person who, like all of us, but more extreme, obviously
(26:36):
had good and bad. And as a biographer, you know,
I see everyone on their best days and their worst days.
It's not my job to judge. I'm not judging anyone.
But I am doing is presenting you with the facts
and trying to let you know that complexity. It's not
a liability, but because people The reason I believe that
people are so resistant to this. Sure, some people are
(26:59):
late about learning, we know this, but I think it's
also because people are sensitive about their own role and
implication in this. And so when I think about this story,
I think about and Washington never wanted to be The
reason he didn't want to be president is he he
was worried that we would be dependent on him and
(27:22):
after he died, that we would not be able to survive.
There was never supposed to be a king. There was
never supposed to be a major military leader who was
in charge of everything. And there was never obviously supposed
to be any sort of religious person who was in charge.
We don't have a pope, so who's very concerned about that?
(27:43):
I feel like the story of Washington. I always say
best of luck if he were trying to cancel him, right,
because you I don't know how you do that. You
cancel George Washington, you cancel America. There's no concern for
me there. But I do think that we have a
hard time holding three things out once when it comes
to Washington and when it comes to America, because he
(28:03):
is very much tied into our nation's identity. And I
talk about it in terms of how I think about
America's two fifty, which is a part of my study
at New America. But also I have a new column
at the Times, the book review for the next year,
where I'm just focusing on our two hundred and fiftieth
in the books we need to read in order to
(28:23):
understand ourselves, and there are three things, right we can
hold them all at once, I promise you we can,
which is pride in the founding, a reckoning for the
ways we fall in short, and aspiration towards a better future.
But in order to do any of that, when it
comes to Washington or our nation, we have to be honest.
(28:47):
And I really encourage people to realize that they are
not necessarily implicated, but perhaps to also think about it
the way I think about my own books. Why do
you write these books? How'd you pick Washington? How did
you pick Kennedy? I didn't really feel like I had
a choice, nor I was cast in these roles in
some ways because I see something that I can't unsee it.
(29:08):
You are not complicit in any narrative if you don't
resist the truth. If you resist the truth, I truly
believe this for myself and everyone else, that you are complicit.
So the only way you are guilty of anything slavery,
whatever it is, is if you deny it. Everyone contains multitudes.
(29:29):
Bob Dylan, Yes, leaves of grass, right, but we also
and that's okay because that doesn't you know, it's okay
in the grand narrative, because everyone does. And the sooner
we can sit in that discomfort, the better our country
will be.
Bob Crawford (29:49):
I've been talking with Alexis co, a New York Times
best selling presidential historian and the author of the book
You Never Forget Your First a biography of George Washington,
and Soon Young Jack, a biography of John F. Kennedy
nineteen fifteen to nineteen fifty seven. Alexis, thanks for joining
(30:10):
us on American History Hotline.
Alexis Coe (30:12):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of
iHeart Podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show's executive producer
is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are Jordan
Runtall and Jason English. Original music composed by me Bob Crawford.
Bob Crawford (30:38):
Please keep in touch. Our email is Americanhistory Hotline at
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up on social media. To ask a history question or
to let me know what you think of the show.
(30:58):
You can find me at Bob Crawford Base. Thanks so
much for listening, See you next week.
You've reached American History Hotline.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
You asked the questions, we get the answers, leave a methode.
Bob Crawford (00:11):
Hey, there are American History Hotliners. Your host, Bob Crawford here,
happy to be joining you again for another episode of
American History Hotline. You're the ones with the questions. I'm
a guy trying to get you some answers and keep
those questions coming. The best way to get us a
question is to record a video or a voice memo
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(00:34):
dot com. That's American History Hotline all one word at
gmail dot com. And remember we're American History Hotline. I
love ancient Egypt as much as the next guy, but
there's plenty to talk about on this continent. Okay. Today's
question is about the man, the myth, the legend, George Washington,
(01:00):
father of our country. Here to help me answer this
question today is Alexis co a New York Times best
selling presidential historian and author of the book You Never
Forget Your First, a biography of George Washington. Thank you
for joining me today.
Alexis Coe (01:16):
I'm happy to be here.
Bob Crawford (01:17):
Okay, here's the question. We're hoping you can help us answer.
Alexis Coe (01:22):
Hi, this is Vegan from Turkey. I have a question
for you.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Did George Washington really cut down a cherry tree and
then tell the truth or is there a myth?
Alexis Coe (01:31):
I love this story and I love this question. It
is by far the greatest fan fiction ever invented because
it was a lie, and I'm sorry to tell you
so were the wooden teeth. But as an aside, the
best thing that a reader has ever given me, because
readers often they send things, They show up to readings
(01:56):
or events with presents, which is great. The best thing
I've ever received was a reader that gave me a
print out of a ven diagram with sir mix a
lot and George Washington and the venn diagram of he
could never tell a lie, and I like big butts.
It was so good. So here's the thing. He could
(02:22):
very much tell a lie. And we know this without
even fact checking the story. First of all, if you've
ever spoken to a child, the concept of truth is
very loose because their concept of the world is very loose,
and what's possible, So it's surely possible that he lied.
But George Washington to say that he could never tell
(02:44):
a lie, is denying him one of the great passions
of his life, which was spying. He was a spymaster
during the war and he loved it. I mean he
very you know, he doesn't come alive. A woman from
the Massachusetts Historical Society once said to me, I don't
know how you can spend so much time with him.
He's so vanilla. But he loved spying, and so I
(03:05):
really think that we have to do him the honor
of letting him have that. The reason this story exists, yes,
is because of a man with a great name, Parson Weims.
Bob Crawford (03:22):
I was going to ask you about Parson Weims, like
tell us about this man. And because this isn't the
only story about George Washington that became legend that is
maybe not true from this that came from Parson Weeds.
Because I was watching the the inauguration of the current
president and Cardinal tim Timothy Dolan, who I have great
(03:47):
respect for as a man of God, he was he
was He had a speech and he talked about George
Washington at Valley Forge in the snow. We've all seen
the painting praying to God. And isn't that also a
Parson Weims invention?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
No.
Alexis Coe (04:05):
Well, okay, so here here's the thing. We can blame
Parson Weams for so many things, and I want to
talk about how these lies happened, because it was sort
of like a rollout. It happened over time. My first
job out of grad school was being as a research
carriator at the New York Public Library in Bryant Park,
which people might remember from Ghostbusters. It has the two
Lions in the front, and we have Eddy every volume
(04:28):
of Parson Weims in there, and it's like watching Pinocchio's
nose grow. It's fantastic. As far as the art of biography,
Parson Weims amazing name right, And I just want to
point out I also I wrote something about I think
for MSNBC. Now I can't even recall. It's been a
whirlwind of a few months. But we know that Washington
(04:53):
didn't kneel to pray at Valley Forge the way. We
know that he told a lie because that painting we've
all seen it was painted decades after Washington died, and
I have to tell you there are no polaroids at
the time, so we don't have any photographs. We also
(05:14):
know that Washington was a deist and deists do not believe.
It's a set it and forget it kind of narrative
here as far as the philosophy, So Washington did not
believe that there was any God to speak to. He
certainly wasn't going to kneel in the cold snow he
was It's an impossibility. And that's a projection of what
(05:39):
the man who spoke at Trump's inauguration wants the country
to believe about itself. That this is that we are
a Christian nation. And of course you can be a
Christian and you can be a patriot and not believe
that we're a Christian nation. Because the first treaty that
America ever made under John Adams, the first line of
it is we are not a Christian nation. So it's
(06:02):
pretty convincing to me. But this story is the same
in this way. So Parson Williams, an itinerant minister, a bookseller,
are kind of like rogue fabulous who's going around the
country trying to make you know Washington he hates.
Bob Crawford (06:19):
So what year is this?
Alexis Coe (06:21):
This is so Parson Williams arrives on the scene a
year before Washington dies and Washington's left office, and he
does so with the explicit intent of writing a book
about Washington. He doesn't have any connection to Washington. He
doesn't have access to his papers, which Washington is busy editing,
and when I say editing, I mean getting rid of stuff.
(06:41):
But of course he has no idea what we will
like and dislike, so he gets sort of probably the
wrong things and definitely keeps the wrong things. And Parson
Williams is there, he's already started, and then Washington dies
and he's like fantastic, because the nation doesn't know what
to do without Washington. He is the great unifier. They
didn't know who. The reason the presidency and the powers
(07:03):
of the presidency are so vague is because they assumed
Washington would be the president and he had given up power,
which was considered, you know, sort of unfathomable. It had happened,
of course, but it was really easy to understand and
conceive it that it would not happen, and so it
was this great thing. So so Parson Williams is like fantastic.
He writes to his publisher and he says, this book,
(07:24):
this book is going to sell like flax seeds, because
flax sees are flying out that I know, I use
it all the time. It doesn't really hit but I
love it. And once in a while you have a
reaction like you just had, so you know, you you
the people who get it, they'll love you for it,
right right. So Parson Williams first on the scene, and
I don't know if history is written by the victors.
(07:45):
I'm not sure I believe that, but I do believe
it is written by the first responders. And Parson Welliams realizes, Okay,
this country is desperate to know who they are. Now
in his defense, there's no study of history that's formalized
in this way. There are historians, there are people who
(08:06):
write history, and of course, but there's no sort of standard,
there are no conferences. Everyone goes to. It is like
the wild West of scholarship and the study of history,
even biography that is like relatively recent. And so he
is going to do whatever he wants here, and boy
(08:28):
does he. The cherry See story is not in the
first volume. There are lots of good stories. But the
thing is the stories that we're talked about. Because not
everyone is literate, you also have to remember so these stories,
these books are being read in pubs the same way
all the parties and newspapers are and the stories that
everyone keeps repeating are the great myths stories, because any
(08:53):
way that you can paint it that Washington was born pure,
the same way the valid Forge story tells us that
he was a Christian who believed that he could pray
to God. Well, that means that we're all good. That
means we're all Christian. That means we can all have
this relationship that a lot of people increasingly want, right.
And it's funny because at the time there were not
(09:16):
as many churches as you would assume. There had been
a great drop after the British left, So we're not
necessarily we just do not know who we are, and
so why not have this founding father who is superhuman
in every single way, including his goodness?
Bob Crawford (09:33):
We are in between the great awakenings, right, We're in
between the Great awakenings?
Alexis Coe (09:39):
All right?
Bob Crawford (09:40):
Today, my guest is Alexis co, a New York Times
best selling presidential historian and author of the book You
Never Forget Your First Biography of George Washington. We're talking
about the real George Washington. Was he cutting down cherry
trees or chomping on corn cakes with wooden teeth or
(10:00):
are those just stories speaking of stories, speaking of research,
speaking of historians like yourself. Before we get back to Washington,
I got to ask you, you are one of the
few women to ever write about George Washington? Is that true?
Alexis Coe (10:19):
I am in the last one hundred years, and I
didn't know this until years into writing the project. And
indeed I am somehow the first woman historian to write
a biography without a husband as a co author or
focusing on let's say, Martha Washington, in over one hundred years,
(10:44):
And it shows, It shows.
Bob Crawford (10:48):
Well, yes, because like one of the things I remember
about your book that I'll probably never forget is you
are taught in the book. I think early in the
book you're talking about the what we would the historiography
of Washington, right, And all these men have written written
about Washington, and they all all these men seem to
(11:09):
be and I think this fits in with the myth
conversation with the size of his thighs. All the men
who've written about his about Washington were fascinated and couldn't
get over the size of Washington's thighs. Can you just
talk about that before we get on the teeth.
Alexis Coe (11:26):
Yes, here's the thing I understand it. I have told
you before that I have a pretty serious crush on
John Andre. It's the most traitorous thing about me. He
was the man who recruited Benedict Arnold, and he was
executed for that sin by Washington. Everyone was begging him
not to because John Andre, John Andre could really he
(11:49):
had appeal even in his own days. Hamilton was just
crushed by this, but Washington was. His thighs were nice.
I'm not saying they weren't nice. I've looked at them
all now to compare. But the thing is that I
noticed when I read these biographies is that they all
(12:10):
start out the same way, as if like everyone took
an oath that we're going to proceed in the same manner,
and they say, okay, we're gonna say he's too marble
to be real. He's in danger of just becoming a
sort of nothing burger of a founder. Because and this
is true, Jefferson has those beautiful words, Lincoln as well.
(12:30):
Everyone seems to have something to ground them. Except for Washington.
You know, you don't really get a sense of his personality,
except that he might have been so perfect and maybe
too perfect to be that interesting, But then they all
talk about they don't really get us any closer to him,
and in part because they spent a lot of time
telling us how like manly he was. And what is
(12:53):
so perplexing to me is I can't point you toward
a single thing I've ever read suggests he's not manly.
So when someone goes really far to say something, you wonder, Okay,
what are they covering up here? Not only do they
talk about how he's mainly, but they talk about how
he's virile. And there's no evidence for that except that
(13:17):
he wanted. When he was about eighteen or nineteen, he
basically wrote to the father of every rich fourteen fifteen
sixty year old girl in any colony, but particularly Virginia,
and claimed to be in love because he wanted to
move up in the world. He when he was about nineteen,
probably became sterile from a trip abroad. He got sick.
(13:40):
He often got sick, so he probably couldn't have children.
Bob Crawford (13:44):
What is that like? The rumor? One of the rumors
is that he became fertile after contracting smallpox as a teenager.
Alexis Coe (13:53):
Yes, this is he definitely got smallpox during his only
trip abroad with his half brother.
Bob Crawford (14:00):
Where did he go on that trip?
Alexis Coe (14:01):
He went to Barbados and he to you know, to
and he was quite taken with it. But he got sick.
He often got sick, carbuncle, he was blooded, ton, you
name it. He got sick. And there are no legitimate
heirs that we have ever encountered. Of course, people make
(14:22):
claims once in a while, but usually those claims do
add up to something, or they don't, and these have
never added up to anything. Martha had children when they met,
two young children, a two year old and a four
year old from her previous husband, And what was interesting
to me is that they would talk about how well
she probably couldn't have anymore, because you know, if you
(14:44):
have if you have a hard childbirth, you can't have
more children. That is true, but there is nothing to
suggest she had a difficult childbirth. If anything, it seemed
like they were quite easy and she recovered quickly, and
she could have more. In an early America, they were
not as obsessed with these biological connect and so it
was just not a big deal. But so they go
out of their way to kind of blame her, and
(15:06):
then they talk about his body in a way that
just made me uncomfortable, like am I reading I'm a
romance novel. I get it. He's mainly I'm not arguing
with this. It's fine. I don't care if he could
have kids or not. He seemed like he was a busy.
He was like a helicopter parent. So I never question
his feelings of paternity towards these children, and not just
these children, but all the other children he raised.
Bob Crawford (15:28):
So let's move from the thighs up to the mouth.
Alexis Coe (15:33):
Keep your eyes where it matters. Oh but they talk
about his rippling jaw too, so okay, but we'll keep it.
We'll keep it perfect.
Bob Crawford (15:38):
Let's go teeth and then we can talk jawline if
we need to.
Alexis Coe (15:43):
Yes, so the teeth. This is interesting because when I
first encountered this. Now I live in the Hudson Valley,
but this was pre pandemic, before I own two saws,
and I thought, Okay, I don't know a lot about wood,
but I do. You know you're not supposed to get
it wet, right, because if you get it wet, it expands.
(16:06):
Eventually it will start to deteriorate. You know, if you've
ever been to anyone's house and put a glass down
on yeah. But also those founding fathers were gossipy af
and so they would have talked about it, and they
love to cut each other down and not lie about it,
but sometimes they did, and they would have talked about this,
(16:28):
we would have known. And also it just is not
so it's not a suitable material for dentures and Washington,
there's no evidence to suggest you was some sort of
like innovator and early dentistry. But this is a story
again that we tell ourselves because we don't want to
know the real story. So just like we know that
Washington could tell a lie, just like we know that
(16:50):
Washington was a deist so he didn't pray at Ballet Forge,
we also know that Washington's teeth were not made of
wood and not the real story here and the story
that people still don't want to tell. So Saint Francis
Tavern in New York, in Lower Manhattan, where Washington had
his final meal after leaving New York after the war,
(17:12):
they still have a They have one of his sets
of dentures, and in the ID they say it was
made out of ivory, true, hippopotomus. True, his teeth maybe
obviously they were taken out for you know, they fell
out for a reason. By the time he was inaugurated,
he had like one left. But there's the other thing
that was in it, and that is what we don't
(17:33):
want to talk about, because it is not the story
we want to tell ourselves. What was it the teeth
of enslaved people. And this was not a practice he invented.
But what was interesting is Washington was very cheap. He
was land rich, cash poor. At first, he went to
(17:55):
a dentist to buy teeth, because that's what rich people did,
and they put them in the like very terrible early
contraptions they called dentures. But you know, we're just awful.
And you can see that in Washington's portrait he looks pained.
His smile changes in each one. That's because he was
really uncomfortable, and they changed the entire structure of his jaw.
(18:18):
The teeth at first he purchased, and there are ads
that this, you know, very stentist would put in the paper.
And then Washington realized who was selling their teeth? Who
sells things like teeth and organs and the people who
are desperate or exploited, And Washington enslaved hundreds of people
and so why pay top dollar, Why pay retail when
(18:41):
you can go whostsale. And so we know from his
ledgers and from his diaries that he paid people who
he enslaved for their teeth, and he paid them under
market value. We don't know how those teeth came out
of the mouth. We don't know if it was by choice.
We don't know if they fell out. We don't know
(19:02):
if these people who were often described by visitors to
Mount Vernon as being in you know, torn clothing and
in bad shape, and we know that they were very hungry.
We don't know. But we do know that they ended
up in Washington's ledger. He paid some money for them,
and then they went into his dentures. And that is
(19:25):
a story that there is still obviously a lot of
resistance to telling.
Bob Crawford (19:37):
This is American History Hotline. I'm your host Bob Crawford. Today,
my guest is Alexis co, a New York Times bestselling
presidential historian and the author of the book You Never
Forget Your First, a biography of George Washington. Today we're
talking about the myth and the facts of George Washington's
(19:57):
life as best as we can remember. Send us your
burning history questions, record yourself using the voice memo app
on your phone and email it to American History Hotline
at gmail dot com. That's American History Hotline all one
word at gmail dot com. Now back to the conversation. So,
(20:17):
while Washington was alive and shortly after his death, there
was a huge effort to deify him. Do we know
how he felt about it while he was still alive,
because he must have known, and I guess there's evidence
in his farewell address that he knew the power he
held and the fact that he gave up power willingly.
(20:40):
He must have known that was going to elevate him
in the minds of his fellow countrymen.
Alexis Coe (20:47):
Washington, I always say, wanted to be at the center
of his nation's story from the earliest age. Because his
father died when he was young. He became in the
head of his household when he was and he also
had to drop out of school fourteen, so he really
had a bit of a complex. He felt like he was,
(21:10):
you know, poorer than his half brothers, he was less educated.
This was true throughout his life with the Founders. You know,
they went to Harvard and William and Mary and all
these colleges. So he definitely felt like I'm out here
trying to prove something. But there are a couple moments
in his life that are really significant. Everyone always argues, oh,
this president, that president had an evolution. I don't believe
that's true with Washington, but I do believe he has
(21:32):
something that is really undervalued. And I could talk about
it all the time and I still don't feel like
I get the point across, which is he could be satisfied.
And so Washington when he left and he gave up power,
Sure he knew it had an effect that he just
wanted to get home before Christmas. He was super annoyed
by that point because you've been asking Jefferson, how do
you want me to do this? How do you want
(21:53):
me to do this? Because we're coming up with all
this stuff on the fly, right, we're trying to create
traditions and meaningful moments because now we're a country. Right,
It's one thing to fight the war. Now you have
to you have to country. And so he leaves and
he just wants to get home, and then Congress does
him dirty. They give Americans the right they basically waive
(22:18):
postage to send him letters. So then he has to
hire a bunch of people, and he hates. I really
can't emphasize enough how much he hates to spend money,
and so he he's annoyed. He builds like backstairs to
avoid people. The only time I would say that he
really enjoyed being famous was the word n agrarian society.
(22:43):
He is a nerd. He's a farming nerd, and he builds,
you know, barns with way too many sides. But he's
after a mule. He really wants a mule. But you
can't get a mule in America. You can't get it.
The king has forbidden it. It's a lead golf. And
he puts the word out kind of shamelessly. And then
(23:03):
he gets one, he gets two, he gets a you know,
he gets them and one dies. But he has like
a great time leasing out. So he's charging for this.
He's putting ads in the paper, like, you know, the
great General's mule. You want it, you gotta pay for it.
He that's the only time he's very excited about this
because he believes the mule is the future. And if
(23:24):
you've ever hung out with the mule, the mule is
the future. Like I would love a mule. Mules are
super friendly and so so he he does not like
being famous, but he's aware of it. At the same time,
Washington is one of those people. And this is this
is also another example of him. So he could be satisfied.
He did not want to be president. I don't believe
he said, oh, I can't possibly be general. But he'd
(23:45):
like stuffed himself in his old uniform and he was now,
you know, a much older man. So as we all know,
bodies changed after forty and he was like definitely changed.
Bob Crawford (23:54):
Right, And every time there was a something came a
crisis in the country, he was called carbon to make
a comeback. And that's what Adams did during the Yes,
the quasi war.
Alexis Coe (24:07):
Yes, he's always called and he's like and it's not
just that he's tired. He is. It's not just that
he's outlived every man in his family, which he has.
He's arthritic again he has by this time, if we're
talking about his after he's served two terms and left voluntarily,
there were no term limits because again we just can
trust him and figure, Okay, whatever he decides to do,
(24:29):
everyone will follow. That was true until it wasn't. That
was and I said that with FDR and with Trump.
So he is he's not excited. He calls going to
the inauguration, going to my funeral, and he said, I
have everything to lose, and he did. And so he's
exceptionally sensitive to criticism. And he is not happy about
(24:52):
rising partisanship because partisanship is as old as the country.
The North and the South were fighting as soon as
the or was over. It was over debts, it was
over where the capital should be, you name it. They
were fighting from the very beginning. And that of course partisanship, regionalism.
So he's not thrilled about being world famous. I wouldn't
(25:14):
say that he was loving it. He left and Jefferson
wrote that I've never met anyone who's more sensitive to criticism.
And I would agree with that as far as leaders.
Bob Crawford (25:25):
So, how much of what we know about Washington is
from the biography he's written about him?
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Know?
Bob Crawford (25:36):
How has his reputation been shaped over time to here
we are two hundred and fifty years later, almost two
hundred and fifty years later. How do we think of
him even today?
Alexis Coe (25:50):
I think I'm going to die on a lot of hills.
I think I could spend the rest of my life
explaining how these things never happened, and trying to get
you to wrap your head around the things that did happen,
the fun history like the spying, and also the difficult
history that makes us uncomfortable, like the one a judge
fact that yes, own a judge, but also hercules other
(26:13):
you know. He They like to say, oh, he never
sold someone he enslaved. Yes he did, and he not
sold them. He sold them to the Caribbean with the
life expectancy on a sugar plantation was you know, just
a few years past that point. And he said, this
guy's trouble, so he marked him right. This is a
person who, like all of us, but more extreme, obviously
(26:36):
had good and bad. And as a biographer, you know,
I see everyone on their best days and their worst days.
It's not my job to judge. I'm not judging anyone.
But I am doing is presenting you with the facts
and trying to let you know that complexity. It's not
a liability, but because people The reason I believe that
people are so resistant to this. Sure, some people are
(26:59):
late about learning, we know this, but I think it's
also because people are sensitive about their own role and
implication in this. And so when I think about this story,
I think about and Washington never wanted to be The
reason he didn't want to be president is he he
was worried that we would be dependent on him and
(27:22):
after he died, that we would not be able to survive.
There was never supposed to be a king. There was
never supposed to be a major military leader who was
in charge of everything. And there was never obviously supposed
to be any sort of religious person who was in charge.
We don't have a pope, so who's very concerned about that?
(27:43):
I feel like the story of Washington. I always say
best of luck if he were trying to cancel him, right,
because you I don't know how you do that. You
cancel George Washington, you cancel America. There's no concern for
me there. But I do think that we have a
hard time holding three things out once when it comes
to Washington and when it comes to America, because he
(28:03):
is very much tied into our nation's identity. And I
talk about it in terms of how I think about
America's two fifty, which is a part of my study
at New America. But also I have a new column
at the Times, the book review for the next year,
where I'm just focusing on our two hundred and fiftieth
in the books we need to read in order to
(28:23):
understand ourselves, and there are three things, right we can
hold them all at once, I promise you we can,
which is pride in the founding, a reckoning for the
ways we fall in short, and aspiration towards a better future.
But in order to do any of that, when it
comes to Washington or our nation, we have to be honest.
(28:47):
And I really encourage people to realize that they are
not necessarily implicated, but perhaps to also think about it
the way I think about my own books. Why do
you write these books? How'd you pick Washington? How did
you pick Kennedy? I didn't really feel like I had
a choice, nor I was cast in these roles in
some ways because I see something that I can't unsee it.
(29:08):
You are not complicit in any narrative if you don't
resist the truth. If you resist the truth, I truly
believe this for myself and everyone else, that you are complicit.
So the only way you are guilty of anything slavery,
whatever it is, is if you deny it. Everyone contains multitudes.
(29:29):
Bob Dylan, Yes, leaves of grass, right, but we also
and that's okay because that doesn't you know, it's okay
in the grand narrative, because everyone does. And the sooner
we can sit in that discomfort, the better our country
will be.
Bob Crawford (29:49):
I've been talking with Alexis co, a New York Times
best selling presidential historian and the author of the book
You Never Forget Your First a biography of George Washington,
and Soon Young Jack, a biography of John F. Kennedy
nineteen fifteen to nineteen fifty seven. Alexis, thanks for joining
(30:10):
us on American History Hotline.
Alexis Coe (30:12):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of
iHeart Podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show's executive producer
is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are Jordan
Runtall and Jason English. Original music composed by me Bob Crawford.
Bob Crawford (30:38):
Please keep in touch. Our email is Americanhistory Hotline at
gmail dot com. If you like the show, please tell
your friends and leave us a review in Apple Podcasts.
I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to hit me
up on social media. To ask a history question or
to let me know what you think of the show.
(30:58):
You can find me at Bob Crawford Base. Thanks so
much for listening, See you next week.
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