November 26, 2025 • 33 mins
Was it the rise of hitchhiking? Lead in the water pipes? Or was it something a little darker in our culture? Bob rings up private investigator and host of the podcast Hell & Gone: Murder Line — Catherine Townsend — to learn why there were so many serial killers in America during the 1970s.
From Ted Bundy to the Night Stalker and John Wayne Gacy, we dive into the “golden age” of serial killers to see how difficult it was to catch predators in a world before DNA testing, cell phones, and surveillance cameras. But that also begs the question: Are there fewer serial killers today? Listen, and find out!
GUEST: Catherine Townsend, host of Hell and Gone: Murder Line and Red Collar
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think in nineteen eighty seven there was something like
one hundred and ninety eight serial killers, and today there
are supposedly only twelve. But I don't know if that's
true because I work a lot of cases and I've
in the past month have encountered at least two technical
serial killers, but they weren't prosecuted for the murders that
(00:20):
they committed, so they're not being caught.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You've reached American History Hotline. You asked the questions, We
get the answers. Leave a message. Hey, they're American History Hotliners.
Bob Crawford here, thrilled to be joining you again for
another episode of American History Hotline. We love all your questions,
(00:46):
so keep them coming and remember to send us a question,
record yourself with a voice memo or a video on
your phone and email it to Americanhistoryhotline at gmail dot com.
That's a Mari History Hotline at gmail dot com. Okay,
now to today's question. It's a bit of a dark one.
(01:10):
It's about serial killers. Here to help me answer the
question is Catherine Townsend. She's the host of the podcasts
Helling Gone, Murder Line and Red Collar.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Hi, how are you I'm great. I'm very excited to
be here, very excited to be here, and very excited
to talk about this.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, we're excited to speak with you about it. Okay, Catherine,
here's the question we were hoping you could help us answer.
It's from Dave in San Louis Obispo, California. He writes,
why were there so many serial killers in the seventies
and are there fewer today now? Catherine, I imagine there
are a lot of reasons for this. So let's just
(01:52):
start with a definition. What is a serial killer?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
So technically a serial killer is some one who kills
three or more victims with a cooling off period, which
differentiates it from something like a mass shooting where there's
more than three victims. But it's you know, all at once.
That's the technical definition. And I can talk a little
bit about why I think that serial killers have been
(02:17):
very pigeonholed since the seventies in my opinion, but we
can get into that later.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Okay, So then, what are some of the traits you
talked about? Three or more, three or more murders and
then a break right, dig into that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Well, So, in other words, I think that when Okay,
when we watch shows like mind Hunter and we talk
about you know, the FBI criminal profilers, we think of
serial killers as the traditional lone wolf, white male killer
who stalks and needs to kill, and you know, these
are people like Ted Bundy or Ed Geen, And I
(02:53):
think that's what the public has thought of as a
serial killer for a really long time. But what we're
coming to find out is that a lot of that
is actually not true. For example, only about I was
reading that only about fifty percent or so serial killers
are white. There are a lot of other, you know,
minority groups represented there, but unfortunately, I think that people
(03:14):
just weren't focusing on catching them, or for other reasons,
weren't really looking for these victims. You have things like
the Atlanta child killer, and in that case you have
multiple African American victims, but no one was looking for
these people for a long time, and so I think
that there could be a lot more out there than
people realize. Actually, the statistics tell us that something like,
(03:38):
I think in nineteen eighty seven there was something like
one hundred and ninety eight serial killers and today there's
supposedly only twelve. But I don't know if that's true
because I work a lot of cases and i've in
the past month have encountered at least two technical serial killers,
but they weren't prosecuted for the murders that they committed,
(03:59):
so they're not being caught.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So you're saying right now, out there somewhere there are
at least twelve active serial killers.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
That's what the research says. Yes, and when we talk
about why they are fewer now than since the seventies,
if in fact that's true, which is another question. I
think there are a lot of reasons. I've seen everything
from lead and lead pipes blamed to a lot of
the serial killers coming up in the seventies and eighties
where the children of Vietnam veterans and those people experienced
(04:32):
a lot of PTSD. There was less mental health in
the home, you know, talk about mental health, so maybe
these children were abused. There are a lot of theories.
For my money, it comes down to I do another
podcast called Red Collar where it's all about white collar
criminals who kill. And when you talk about the triangle
of fraud, Okay, you've got opportunity, pressure, rationalization. So pressure
(04:56):
and rationalization are things that come from within you can
you know, just like a serial killer, you can rationalize it,
you have this emotional need to do it. The big
thing that we can't control is opportunity. An opportunity really
for me, is about the victim pool. Back in the
seventies and eighties, you had this huge pool of victims,
mainly I mean a lot of hitchhikers, and you also
(05:16):
had sex workers who were kind of off the grid.
You still have that today. You had a lot less
ability to DNA test. None of the law enforcement agencies
talk to each other in the way they do now,
so you have less cohesiveness there. And I think it
was kind of this perfect storm that allowed these people to,
if they felt like killing someone, get away with it.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
A lot of people point to ed Gean Right as
the first serial killer, but we know there have been
There were others before HH Holmes, who gained notoriety through
Eric Larson's book The Devil in the White City. Can
we say who was the first, let's say, American serial
(05:58):
killer because HH Holmes was active around the time of
Jack the Ripper in London.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Correct, Yes, So, I mean, honestly, I don't think we
know about the first serial killer. There was and it
might have been after H. Tolms, but it was. There
was this guy, Albert Fish who killed a lot of
children and wasn't found until much later.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
But I think the time period was he.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
You know, I can't exactly remember. I want to say
the nineteen thirty, so that would have been later, okay,
But I think of that's kind of someone I think
of as being early serial killer. But I don't think
we know about the first serial killers. I think they've
been around a really long time doing bad things. But
the problem is the technology to catch them didn't exist.
And again, like law enforcement agencies didn't talk to each
(06:45):
other the way they did now. There was no national database.
For a long time before there were computers, Each individual
police agency was researching things on paper, you know, I mean,
and they would have to wait months and years to
get results back. So I think that had a lot
to do with it. It was much easier to kill someone
in one geographical area and then get away with it.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
So if we're trying to figure out what creates a
critical mass right of serial killers in one decade or
in one time period, you know, we talk about the
scars of war and those coming home and children being
emotionally neglected and abused, and then they grew up and
(07:29):
they become serial killers HH Holmes or maybe lead poisoning.
Maybe HH Holmes was the victim of lead poisoning. But
if we see these serial killers in different decades, maybe
what makes a serial killer isn't time sensitive, right, isn't
to one error. Maybe it's a human flaw.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I think it is. And I also think that it's
a big question is you know, look, these are not
completely These people are asking themselves, what's my chances of
getting caught? Will I get away with this? And we
see this overall types of crime, And the fact is
during the seventies and eighties, they had a much better
chance of getting away with it than they do today. Also,
we haven't even talked about things like DNA technology and
(08:13):
the ability to catch people months and years later. The
fact of the matter is, if you killed somebody in
the seventies and eighties, especially if it was a victim. Sadly,
a lot of these people who were targeted were sex workers.
No one was looking for these people. So if you know,
they would have a really good chance of getting away
with it. I mean, the crime clearance rate today actually
(08:33):
is only about fifty to sixty percent, and that's not
even counting all the people who are out there missing.
So I do think that, but I do think that
in general today killers are much more aware of technology
and they know that they will probably not get away
with it, and they might get caught, and DNA might
get them months or years later.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Let's jump to these sixties and seventies, Okay, okay, who
were some of the serial killers who were active at
this time.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Well, you had Richard Ramirez, the night Stalker. You had
Ted Bundy, you had Bueno and Bianchi, the Hillside Stranglers.
You had, I suppose, during the same time, the Golden
State Killer. I mean, there were lots of serial killers
during that era. And then you also had this was
more recent, but you had the Long Island serial killer
(09:22):
on the East Coast. So these guys were and these
guys got away with it for a long time, and
they were pretty brazen about picking women up. I think
that's also the other factor that comes into this with
when we talk about the victim pool, you're also talking
about the sixties and seventies, a time period when many
more young women are going out into the workforce and
(09:43):
going to hang out in groups or by themselves and
hitch hiking. Hitchhiking is a huge factor.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah, talk about the automobile, right, and that and that
as a as a tool of stalking and a tool
of killing.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Well, I mean it was the hitch hiking trend was
before my time. But whenever I talked to my parents
or I talked to people who you know, were around
back then, they talk about how common it was to
get a ride.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I mean it was.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
It was people just thought nothing of hitching a ride,
you know, getting a ride somewhere. And if someone picked
you up and took you somewhere you didn't want to go.
There was no cell phone or GPS or anything like that.
You literally disappeared and you were just gone. And also
compound that with the fact that a lot of these
people sometimes there were people who were free spirits and
(10:33):
maybe they'd left home and so they weren't missed right away,
which is another problem because then you missed the critical
twenty four to forty eight hours. Yeah, I mean, the
automobile is like the perfect perfect tool for a serial
killer really, because it lets people entice their victim in
and they have them in their environment and then they
can you know, they have control of the situation, They
(10:55):
can take them away from the primary location.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
When you think about the the late sixties and there
were a lot of kids who were running away from
home and going to San Francisco or you know, free
love and everything we think about with that era, it
seems and even into the seventies, like you know, there
was this lost generation, right, so it was really about
(11:19):
opportunity and targets. It seems like it would be a prime.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Time Oh yeah, I mean, think about it. If you are,
if you're sort of you know, hippie free love going
to a rock show or something like that, and then
you disappear, you've got kind of again like a perfect
storm of events. First of all, people wouldn't necessarily be
alarmed right away and start looking for you. There's no
way to trace, you know, there's no cell phones, there's
(11:46):
no surveillance cameras back then. I think people now in
this generation have a hard time even imagining how free
it was. You just you could disappear for a few
days and no one would hear from you, and that
was not unusual. I feel like now also, that's another thing.
People use cell phones. People are much more. Even if
they are free spirits, they're in communication somehow, often where
you can track their location or something. I travel around
(12:09):
all the time, all around the world, and my mom
is always saying, you know, please just at least share
your location with us. And I kind of laugh because
when I was sixteen years old, i lived in Paris.
There was no way for my parents to find me.
They would hear from me once a week when I
called on a phone card. And I'm always thinking about
how lucky anything could have happened to me. Really, I mean,
it just takes a lot longer. There was long longer
(12:30):
legs in communication.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, and there are things now with if you have kids,
you have Life three sixty and you have at your
the iPhone, you can set it up where you know
where your child is at all times, or at least
where their cell phone is at all times.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, you know where their device is, right. But I agree,
I think that there and I think also it's not
only that parents have used it. I mean, I think
teenager for the most part, a lot of people feel
that it is a safety feature that they want for
that reason. And uh, yeah, I just had nothing like
that in the sixties. Seventies, eighties, nineties, that was just
non existent, so it took much longer. And also even
(13:07):
things like amber alerts are pretty recent, so you just
there was no way of knowing someone was missing, and
there was this hole you have to wait twenty four
or forty eight hours, which is no longer true, but sadly,
a lot of stuff got missed in those crucial time periods.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
So the more you learn about some of these killers
like John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer you know, we're
getting into the eighties and nineties now, the more you
realize how sloppy they were.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Oh yeah, they were not. These were not master criminals.
They had luck and they had a lot of opportunity
with their victim pool. Like Okay, Jeffreydamer is a really
good example because a lot of people who he encountered
were leading double lives. Sadly, due to that time period,
a lot of them were not you know, out, they
were not gay openly, and so that was also another opportunity.
(13:57):
If they're not telling someone in their lives, people closes
to them, what's actually going on, then it becomes hard
to investigate because then you've got to figure out that
whole aspect, and again no cell phones, no tracking devices. Yeah,
they were very sloppy. I mean he was leaving body
parts in his kitchen and it's that whole thing is
(14:18):
just so sad.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Are there examples that you can think of where the
cops had these people in there, you know, basically in
their clutches and let them go.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Well, Jeffrey Dahmer, one of his victims was fourteen years
old and didn't speak English and got away from him
and was running naked through the streets and the police
actually brought the fourteen year old back to Jeffrey Dahmer's
place and he ended up killing him, and that, to
me is incredibly tragic. I think there was a lot
less also. I think in general there was just police
(14:50):
saw it, unfortunately as a sort of some sort of
lover's spat that he want to get involved with, and
they didn't protect this child, which is also tragic.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
This is American History Hotline. I'm your host Bob Crawford Today.
My guest is Katherine Townsend. She's the host of the
podcasts Helen Gone, Murder Line and Red Collar. We're talking
about why the nineteen seventies was rife with serial killers. Remember,
send us your burning questions about American history to American
(15:26):
History Hotline at gmail dot com. You can leave us
a voice memo message. You can write us an email.
If you want make us a video to send it
to Americanhistory Hotline at gmail dot com. Now back to
the show. Let's talk about the victims of these killers.
You mentioned the poor young boy who who the cops
(15:48):
took back to Jeffrey Dahmer and then he killed them.
We talked, and we talked about racial minorities, gay or
sex workers, talk about the police and the for looking
of the marginalized in the late twentieth century.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Well, the sad thing about the overlooking of marginalized people
is that it's still happening today. I do think it's
gotten better, there's more education, but it's something that I see.
I cover forty eight cases a year or something like that,
and I see it all the time. I think that
there are a few things going on. I think that sometimes,
as with the Jeffrey Dahmer example, the police see a
(16:27):
situation and just they don't want to get involved in
some sort of subculture. Maybe they don't understand and so
they just won't get involved, sometimes often with either with
both with sex workers, but also just with teenage girls
who disappear. There's this attitude of, oh, well, you know,
they were dating a bunch of different people, and you know,
(16:49):
maybe they'll come back, or they treat it as if
there's a lot of there's still quite a bit of
victim blaming that goes on. In my opinion, that's.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
What this sounds like to me.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, I was working on a case where one of
my first big cases, and I literally had the investigator saying,
we're talking about a twenty two year old college student
who had been staying with her boyfriend but had been
dating some other people went missing, and he made the
comment he said, well, with the lifestyle she was living,
what did she expect? And I just was I was
(17:19):
actually stunned because I just thought, I can't believe this
is where we are in two thousand at the time,
twenty eighteen, but it still happens. And I feel like
a lot of people are just not being looked for.
But then from the other side, they're not being reported
missing either right away, and that's a big problem for
(17:39):
an investigation. That does make things a lot harder in
the police's defense that makes things a lot harder.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I can't stop thinking about these active cases like here,
I thought we were going to talk about the past,
and we have and we will. But you know, according
to you and speaking to you, it's like, this is
a very immediate threat. This is happening right now, more
than we think it is, more than we realize it is.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, I think when I say that, I'm talking about
things like using the example the case I've been working on,
you have an individual and maybe it doesn't fit into
the stereotypical man who is who needs to kill and
he's targeting women. What actually happens is some of these
people just it's not that they necessarily need to kill,
(18:24):
but they want what they want and they'll do it,
and they will absolutely kill someone if that person steps
in the way of what they want. The example I'm
talking about is a case where a man killed two people,
was charged with murder, but then the police lost the DNA.
So over a period of time, there was one victim,
there was another victim years later. One was his landlord,
(18:46):
one was someone else who got into an argument with
then he ended up breaking into a woman's apartment and
beating and killing her. Seriously injuring her boyfriend, and we
think there might be a fourth person who's responsible for
So it's not what you'd think of as a traditional
serial killer. Or he wasn't stalking and killing just female victims,
but he's killed a lot of people, but he's not
called a serial killer. So I just feel like there's
(19:07):
a lot of people out there who may be technical
serial killers who would not getting counted.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
You're almost saying that we need to redefine what makes
a serial killer, right or.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Just think of it. It can still be someone who's
had three victims with a cooling off period. But I
definitely think that for example, also a lot of the
white collar cases I work on that then turns to murder.
I think people kill people for a lot of reasons.
It's not always the sexual, sadist, rapist, predator. There was
(19:39):
a really good example that I don't know if you
ever saw the Netflix series The Serpent, but it was
really good. It was about a serial killer who was
back in the sixties, seventies, eighties, living in Nepal in
all these different places, and he very much capitalized on
the free love vibe that was going on during that time,
and he was able to kind of scam people, but
then when they would find out out about his scams,
(20:00):
he really just wanted to steal money, but he killed
a lot of them. He had a lot of victims,
So I think there are a lot of people like
that floating around out there, sadly.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
How many women serial killers have you come across?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Come across? I mean, I've never really interviewed a female
serial killer. Well maybe one.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Have you interviewed a serial killer?
Speaker 1 (20:22):
No? No, I was thinking about someone who's had a
couple victims, but technically she's not a serial killer. I've interviewed.
I mean, I've definitely interviewed female killers, and I was
thinking of one because I believe that she I believe
she might actually be a serial killer, but I can't
prove it. I think that women, traditionally, most female serial
(20:42):
killers are not like Aileen Warno's and I think that
that case has been hugely publicized. She kind of killed,
she killed her victims and more what you might think
of as a male fashion. I'm not trying to be sexist,
but just saying, you know, she used a weapon. They
were kind of violent.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Oh I'm sorry, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Just so alien Warnos was a female serial killer. She
was the one who was portrayed in the movie Monster
by Charlie Saran. She had several victims, and she'd had
this really tragic life. She had been sexually assaulted and
raped by men in her own family. She became a
sex worker, and in a way, a lot of people
(21:23):
think of her as kind of a sympathetic character because
she lured some men who were clients of hers into
the car with her and then she murdered them, and
it was usually pretty violent. She would shoot them. She
would actually she would kill them in ways that were
thought of as more of a male way of killing,
because typically experts say that men are more violent and
(21:45):
women are more kind of I want to say this
is going to sound wrong, but low key women do
a lot more poisoning because you know, and honestly, I
think women get away with it more in my personal opinion,
because they are pretty subtle about it. And We've had
so many cases of female nurses who've killed multiple patients
and things like that. And I've had several cases that
(22:07):
I've reported on where a woman will kill several husbands.
So you have people like bel Guinness who woul lure
her borders in. She had a boarding house and then
she would kill people and bury them in the yard. Again,
that was more of a fraud case. She just wanted
the money, but at some point she had to get
rid of the bodies.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
We did a past episode on serial poisoners. Yeah, that's
so before all the age of CSI we live in now, right,
with all the forensic tools. Before that in the seventies,
how did police track a serial killer? Because you talked
(22:44):
about that critical forty eight hours being impossible. So how
did these detectives and police like eventually find their the killers.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Most of them did a lot of what I do,
because most of my cases never have very few have
physical evidence we can see or use anyway. They did
old school detective gumshoe pounding, the pavement detective no our
police work, where they went out, they talked to people
on the streets, They developed sources, and they just kept
(23:19):
following leads. And for example, I'm thinking of the Hillside
strangler case, they went and literally talked to all of
these women. You know, they went into the community, they
knew the community, they got their sources, and then that's
how they got you know, heard about rumors of these
weird guys who were kind of out there, and then
(23:39):
they just followed those leads. They had much less to
work with.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Let's talk about some of the people who are serial
killers but kind of not serial killers. And you kind
of already allude to this, like Charles Manson, Like, right,
he never actually killed anyone or did any right.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I think of him more as a cult leader myself,
think of Charles Manson Moore as a cult leader. He certainly,
I would say, you know it, was responsible for those
deaths and had a part in them. But you're right,
he never actually did it. But then what do you
call people who, for example, will hire someone, they'll hire
a hitman. Well, they didn't actually do it, but they
definitely masterminded it. I feel like he was masterminding it.
(24:19):
So I guess it's the same kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
When I was in college in the nineties early nineties,
two guys I knew on spring break went to visit
John Wayne Gacy in jail. What is it about the
fascination that we all have for serial killers? The movie?
I mean, because you have two podcasts, there are endless
(24:43):
movies about serial killers, television shows, documentaries, books. True crime
is so popular. What is it about the non killers
curiosity about the serial killer?
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I don't know. Since I was a child, i've read
I started out reading all the annual true crime books.
I am fascinated by those things, but I sort of
turned on its head a little bit. I'm much more
interested in the victims, how they survived, how they figured
things out, how to solve the mystery, than I am
in the killers, because the truth is, they're not very interesting.
They're really not. They're superficially charming maybe at best, but
(25:22):
like you said, most of the time, they just got
really lucky. I mean, Jomyan Gacy literally had a graveyard
underneath his house, and he was actually very sloppy. He
just happened to get lucky and that no one was
maybe looking for those people or thought that he would
have done it, and he just kind of got lucky.
I don't know why people were so fascinated with them.
I don't find them that interesting, to be totally honest.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yeah, it was crazy that these guys did this, and
I think he gave them some of his paintings.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
He gave them some paintings.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
The paintings. Yeah, it's crazy, Well, I.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Do, but it's the same thing with you know, it's
not exactly the same, but with prison pen pals. I mean,
I end up in my job writing a lot of
people in prison because by necessity. But you know, I'm
always amazed at how many women want to be in
relationships with these guys, and that does kind of blow
me away, I'll be honest, that's what is it about.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Like you've spoken to some of these women, right, I mean,
have you ever.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Seen the same reason people keep Yeah, we actually have.
I'm sorry to bring it back to my cases, but
it is wild. We have one right now where when
this guy, he's in his forties now, when he was
seventeen years old, he killed his entire family, all right,
and there's overwhelming evidence. I've seen the case fall he
clearly did it. He threw a party, he killed his
young sister, his stepfather, and his mother covered the bodies
(26:39):
up three a party like high school, had high school
people over partying for a week, and I mean it
was pretty horrific. And then he's been in jail for
a long time. But because in Arkansas the law changed
and now he's eligible for release, he's going to get released.
And this woman who keeps calling us is so convinced
that he didn't do it, And I keep saying, did
(27:00):
you read the case file? At least read the case file.
You have children, you know, please read the case file.
And she's just completely believes he's the best thing. Ever.
Maybe it's not to be flippant. Maybe it's the same
thing when people want to raise wild animals or something.
It's just this weird it's this need to have a
sort of dark, dramatic thing in your life that's sort
of caged, safely caged, right, so you kind.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Of get them them them, I can yield it.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
And if not, they're behind bars, so they're telling you
everything you want to hear. Anyway, maybe it's that I
truly don't understand. I was single for a long time,
wondering what I was doing wrong, because you know, every
serial killer in prison I knew how to partner or
multiple partners.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Even the serial killers are in love, you.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Know, and I'm like, I can't get a date. I mean,
this is you know, and these guys are literally I
mean there's they've got ten or fifteen women on the hook.
What am I doing wrong?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Have you saw? Like you talk about you and you
say we like you have a stash and forget me
for not knowing all the details. But but have you
solved I mean, have you convinced law enforcement that you
know this person is a serial killer? Have you solved cases?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
It wasn't a serial killer, but yeah, we we our
first season of Hell and Gone involved the murder of
a twenty two year old girl in the Arkansas Ozarks
who was a friend of my sisters. Well, story short,
we went in, we had absolutely no access to the
case file. We went out and did all of our
own investigating. And when I say we, it was it
was a small staff. It was me, a couple of producers,
(28:34):
and but I was mainly the one in I was
the one in the field all that, you know, most
of the time, for months at a time. Anyway, we
ended up the original investigator on the case who told
me to mind my own business and that investigations were
grown up stuff. Got was removed from the case somehow,
and after that a new investigator came in and the
case was solved in nine months. This case was solved
(28:55):
in nine months. And now there's someone in jail convicted
for that. So uh now, now, well, the Arkansas State
police ever admit that we helped solve it. No, they'll
tell you that after sixteen years it was a coincidence.
I know we did. I know we helped, and that
makes me very proud. I don't care if we solved
it or not. I just know that we helped, and
that's all ever wanted to do.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I'm sure it gave you inspiration to keep going. Oh yeah,
keep find it, finding more of these. So we started
out and you've answered this a couple times during our conversation.
But it's like, is our serial killers an American thing?
Is it? Or do we see them all over? Because
you mentioned someone in Nepal. Of course we know Jack
(29:33):
the Ripper. Is it like gun violence? It's there's more
of it in America, but it's not just exclusive to America.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
I think serial killers are worldwide. I've certainly seen examples.
I'm just thinking about even things that I've read in
the past few years, Russia, Japan, although in Japan it
is more rare again just because it's so there's cameras everywhere.
The UK certainly to even today they are serial killers.
I do think that fewer people become serial killers today
(30:05):
because they're caught earlier, and I think the UK is
a really good example of that, because there have been
a couple like, for example, there's one called the Camden
Ripper who was killing and dismembering people, but I don't
know that he was technically a serial killer because there's
CCTV everywhere. When you go to the UK, it's wall
to wall CCTV, so usually they're able to apprehend people
(30:27):
before they actually technically kill that third person. So you
probably have a lot of people who would have become
serial killers, but they get caught earlier.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Well. And getting to this, and we've talked about this
throughout our conversation as well, but getting to the second
part of Dave's question, which is are there fewer serial
killers today?
Speaker 1 (30:45):
It's a really hard question to answer. I'm not avoiding it.
I don't know. I think that Okay, research will tell you.
Studies will tell you that there are. There probably are.
At the same time, you got to look at where
the homicide clearance rates are going. There are fewer homicides
being cleared now somewhere.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Around mean by being cleared.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
So that's the thing when when the police give these
statistics and they say you have a certain percentage of
homicides that are cleared. It doesn't necessarily mean they're sold
in the persons behind bars. All that it means is
I believe that the police have basically gone as far
as they can and that investigation and either the people
are dead you might be responsible, or they can't find them.
(31:26):
I mean they literally will market cleared, meaning but it
might not be solved. So you've got that first of all.
And then it's only about sixty percent fifty to sixty
percent are cleared. That doesn't include all the missing people
out there. So that means you've got about a one
and two chance of getting away with murder. Yeah, you
got a fifty to fifty chance of getting away with
murder in America based on where you are. And that's
(31:50):
a little scary, to be honest with you. I mean,
when you watch shows like CSI and Law and Order,
you're not seeing that. So I do think that there
are potentially more people out there. I think they're you know,
and plus what about all the missing people. A lot
of them are probably not alive, but they're not officially
getting counted, right, So I do think there are a
fewer serial killers. I do think the technology at catching
(32:11):
them earlier. Has gotten better, but I don't think that
we should rest easy.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
We certainly won't be resting easy here, but it has
been nice and easy having a conversation with you. I've
been talking to Katherine Townsend. She's host of the podcast
Hell and Gone, Murder Line, and Red Collar. Give her
a call some time. Catherine. Thanks for joining us today
on American History Hotline.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of
iHeart Podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show is executive
producer is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are
Jordan Runtall and Jason English. Original music composed by me
Bob Crawford. Please keep in touch. Our email is Americanhistory
(33:06):
Hotline at gmail dot com. If you like the show,
please tell your friends and leave us a review in
Apple Podcasts. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to
hit me up on social media to ask a history
question or to let me know what you think of
the show. You can find me at Bob Crawford Base.
(33:27):
Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.
I think in nineteen eighty seven there was something like
one hundred and ninety eight serial killers, and today there
are supposedly only twelve. But I don't know if that's
true because I work a lot of cases and I've
in the past month have encountered at least two technical
serial killers, but they weren't prosecuted for the murders that
(00:20):
they committed, so they're not being caught.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You've reached American History Hotline. You asked the questions, We
get the answers. Leave a message. Hey, they're American History Hotliners.
Bob Crawford here, thrilled to be joining you again for
another episode of American History Hotline. We love all your questions,
(00:46):
so keep them coming and remember to send us a question,
record yourself with a voice memo or a video on
your phone and email it to Americanhistoryhotline at gmail dot com.
That's a Mari History Hotline at gmail dot com. Okay,
now to today's question. It's a bit of a dark one.
(01:10):
It's about serial killers. Here to help me answer the
question is Catherine Townsend. She's the host of the podcasts
Helling Gone, Murder Line and Red Collar.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Hi, how are you I'm great. I'm very excited to
be here, very excited to be here, and very excited
to talk about this.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, we're excited to speak with you about it. Okay, Catherine,
here's the question we were hoping you could help us answer.
It's from Dave in San Louis Obispo, California. He writes,
why were there so many serial killers in the seventies
and are there fewer today now? Catherine, I imagine there
are a lot of reasons for this. So let's just
(01:52):
start with a definition. What is a serial killer?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
So technically a serial killer is some one who kills
three or more victims with a cooling off period, which
differentiates it from something like a mass shooting where there's
more than three victims. But it's you know, all at once.
That's the technical definition. And I can talk a little
bit about why I think that serial killers have been
(02:17):
very pigeonholed since the seventies in my opinion, but we
can get into that later.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Okay, So then, what are some of the traits you
talked about? Three or more, three or more murders and
then a break right, dig into that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Well, So, in other words, I think that when Okay,
when we watch shows like mind Hunter and we talk
about you know, the FBI criminal profilers, we think of
serial killers as the traditional lone wolf, white male killer
who stalks and needs to kill, and you know, these
are people like Ted Bundy or Ed Geen, And I
(02:53):
think that's what the public has thought of as a
serial killer for a really long time. But what we're
coming to find out is that a lot of that
is actually not true. For example, only about I was
reading that only about fifty percent or so serial killers
are white. There are a lot of other, you know,
minority groups represented there, but unfortunately, I think that people
(03:14):
just weren't focusing on catching them, or for other reasons,
weren't really looking for these victims. You have things like
the Atlanta child killer, and in that case you have
multiple African American victims, but no one was looking for
these people for a long time, and so I think
that there could be a lot more out there than
people realize. Actually, the statistics tell us that something like,
(03:38):
I think in nineteen eighty seven there was something like
one hundred and ninety eight serial killers and today there's
supposedly only twelve. But I don't know if that's true
because I work a lot of cases and i've in
the past month have encountered at least two technical serial killers,
but they weren't prosecuted for the murders that they committed,
(03:59):
so they're not being caught.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So you're saying right now, out there somewhere there are
at least twelve active serial killers.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
That's what the research says. Yes, and when we talk
about why they are fewer now than since the seventies,
if in fact that's true, which is another question. I
think there are a lot of reasons. I've seen everything
from lead and lead pipes blamed to a lot of
the serial killers coming up in the seventies and eighties
where the children of Vietnam veterans and those people experienced
(04:32):
a lot of PTSD. There was less mental health in
the home, you know, talk about mental health, so maybe
these children were abused. There are a lot of theories.
For my money, it comes down to I do another
podcast called Red Collar where it's all about white collar
criminals who kill. And when you talk about the triangle
of fraud, Okay, you've got opportunity, pressure, rationalization. So pressure
(04:56):
and rationalization are things that come from within you can
you know, just like a serial killer, you can rationalize it,
you have this emotional need to do it. The big
thing that we can't control is opportunity. An opportunity really
for me, is about the victim pool. Back in the
seventies and eighties, you had this huge pool of victims,
mainly I mean a lot of hitchhikers, and you also
(05:16):
had sex workers who were kind of off the grid.
You still have that today. You had a lot less
ability to DNA test. None of the law enforcement agencies
talk to each other in the way they do now,
so you have less cohesiveness there. And I think it
was kind of this perfect storm that allowed these people to,
if they felt like killing someone, get away with it.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
A lot of people point to ed Gean Right as
the first serial killer, but we know there have been
There were others before HH Holmes, who gained notoriety through
Eric Larson's book The Devil in the White City. Can
we say who was the first, let's say, American serial
(05:58):
killer because HH Holmes was active around the time of
Jack the Ripper in London.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Correct, Yes, So, I mean, honestly, I don't think we
know about the first serial killer. There was and it
might have been after H. Tolms, but it was. There
was this guy, Albert Fish who killed a lot of
children and wasn't found until much later.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
But I think the time period was he.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
You know, I can't exactly remember. I want to say
the nineteen thirty, so that would have been later, okay,
But I think of that's kind of someone I think
of as being early serial killer. But I don't think
we know about the first serial killers. I think they've
been around a really long time doing bad things. But
the problem is the technology to catch them didn't exist.
And again, like law enforcement agencies didn't talk to each
(06:45):
other the way they did now. There was no national database.
For a long time before there were computers, Each individual
police agency was researching things on paper, you know, I mean,
and they would have to wait months and years to
get results back. So I think that had a lot
to do with it. It was much easier to kill someone
in one geographical area and then get away with it.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
So if we're trying to figure out what creates a
critical mass right of serial killers in one decade or
in one time period, you know, we talk about the
scars of war and those coming home and children being
emotionally neglected and abused, and then they grew up and
(07:29):
they become serial killers HH Holmes or maybe lead poisoning.
Maybe HH Holmes was the victim of lead poisoning. But
if we see these serial killers in different decades, maybe
what makes a serial killer isn't time sensitive, right, isn't
to one error. Maybe it's a human flaw.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I think it is. And I also think that it's
a big question is you know, look, these are not
completely These people are asking themselves, what's my chances of
getting caught? Will I get away with this? And we
see this overall types of crime, And the fact is
during the seventies and eighties, they had a much better
chance of getting away with it than they do today. Also,
we haven't even talked about things like DNA technology and
(08:13):
the ability to catch people months and years later. The
fact of the matter is, if you killed somebody in
the seventies and eighties, especially if it was a victim. Sadly,
a lot of these people who were targeted were sex workers.
No one was looking for these people. So if you know,
they would have a really good chance of getting away
with it. I mean, the crime clearance rate today actually
(08:33):
is only about fifty to sixty percent, and that's not
even counting all the people who are out there missing.
So I do think that, but I do think that
in general today killers are much more aware of technology
and they know that they will probably not get away
with it, and they might get caught, and DNA might
get them months or years later.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Let's jump to these sixties and seventies, Okay, okay, who
were some of the serial killers who were active at
this time.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Well, you had Richard Ramirez, the night Stalker. You had
Ted Bundy, you had Bueno and Bianchi, the Hillside Stranglers.
You had, I suppose, during the same time, the Golden
State Killer. I mean, there were lots of serial killers
during that era. And then you also had this was
more recent, but you had the Long Island serial killer
(09:22):
on the East Coast. So these guys were and these
guys got away with it for a long time, and
they were pretty brazen about picking women up. I think
that's also the other factor that comes into this with
when we talk about the victim pool, you're also talking
about the sixties and seventies, a time period when many
more young women are going out into the workforce and
(09:43):
going to hang out in groups or by themselves and
hitch hiking. Hitchhiking is a huge factor.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah, talk about the automobile, right, and that and that
as a as a tool of stalking and a tool
of killing.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Well, I mean it was the hitch hiking trend was
before my time. But whenever I talked to my parents
or I talked to people who you know, were around
back then, they talk about how common it was to
get a ride.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I mean it was.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
It was people just thought nothing of hitching a ride,
you know, getting a ride somewhere. And if someone picked
you up and took you somewhere you didn't want to go.
There was no cell phone or GPS or anything like that.
You literally disappeared and you were just gone. And also
compound that with the fact that a lot of these
people sometimes there were people who were free spirits and
(10:33):
maybe they'd left home and so they weren't missed right away,
which is another problem because then you missed the critical
twenty four to forty eight hours. Yeah, I mean, the
automobile is like the perfect perfect tool for a serial
killer really, because it lets people entice their victim in
and they have them in their environment and then they
can you know, they have control of the situation, They
(10:55):
can take them away from the primary location.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
When you think about the the late sixties and there
were a lot of kids who were running away from
home and going to San Francisco or you know, free
love and everything we think about with that era, it
seems and even into the seventies, like you know, there
was this lost generation, right, so it was really about
(11:19):
opportunity and targets. It seems like it would be a prime.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Time Oh yeah, I mean, think about it. If you are,
if you're sort of you know, hippie free love going
to a rock show or something like that, and then
you disappear, you've got kind of again like a perfect
storm of events. First of all, people wouldn't necessarily be
alarmed right away and start looking for you. There's no
way to trace, you know, there's no cell phones, there's
(11:46):
no surveillance cameras back then. I think people now in
this generation have a hard time even imagining how free
it was. You just you could disappear for a few
days and no one would hear from you, and that
was not unusual. I feel like now also, that's another thing.
People use cell phones. People are much more. Even if
they are free spirits, they're in communication somehow, often where
you can track their location or something. I travel around
(12:09):
all the time, all around the world, and my mom
is always saying, you know, please just at least share
your location with us. And I kind of laugh because
when I was sixteen years old, i lived in Paris.
There was no way for my parents to find me.
They would hear from me once a week when I
called on a phone card. And I'm always thinking about
how lucky anything could have happened to me. Really, I mean,
it just takes a lot longer. There was long longer
(12:30):
legs in communication.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, and there are things now with if you have kids,
you have Life three sixty and you have at your
the iPhone, you can set it up where you know
where your child is at all times, or at least
where their cell phone is at all times.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, you know where their device is, right. But I agree,
I think that there and I think also it's not
only that parents have used it. I mean, I think
teenager for the most part, a lot of people feel
that it is a safety feature that they want for
that reason. And uh, yeah, I just had nothing like
that in the sixties. Seventies, eighties, nineties, that was just
non existent, so it took much longer. And also even
(13:07):
things like amber alerts are pretty recent, so you just
there was no way of knowing someone was missing, and
there was this hole you have to wait twenty four
or forty eight hours, which is no longer true, but sadly,
a lot of stuff got missed in those crucial time periods.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
So the more you learn about some of these killers
like John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer you know, we're
getting into the eighties and nineties now, the more you
realize how sloppy they were.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Oh yeah, they were not. These were not master criminals.
They had luck and they had a lot of opportunity
with their victim pool. Like Okay, Jeffreydamer is a really
good example because a lot of people who he encountered
were leading double lives. Sadly, due to that time period,
a lot of them were not you know, out, they
were not gay openly, and so that was also another opportunity.
(13:57):
If they're not telling someone in their lives, people closes
to them, what's actually going on, then it becomes hard
to investigate because then you've got to figure out that
whole aspect, and again no cell phones, no tracking devices. Yeah,
they were very sloppy. I mean he was leaving body
parts in his kitchen and it's that whole thing is
(14:18):
just so sad.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Are there examples that you can think of where the
cops had these people in there, you know, basically in
their clutches and let them go.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Well, Jeffrey Dahmer, one of his victims was fourteen years
old and didn't speak English and got away from him
and was running naked through the streets and the police
actually brought the fourteen year old back to Jeffrey Dahmer's
place and he ended up killing him, and that, to
me is incredibly tragic. I think there was a lot
less also. I think in general there was just police
(14:50):
saw it, unfortunately as a sort of some sort of
lover's spat that he want to get involved with, and
they didn't protect this child, which is also tragic.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
This is American History Hotline. I'm your host Bob Crawford Today.
My guest is Katherine Townsend. She's the host of the
podcasts Helen Gone, Murder Line and Red Collar. We're talking
about why the nineteen seventies was rife with serial killers. Remember,
send us your burning questions about American history to American
(15:26):
History Hotline at gmail dot com. You can leave us
a voice memo message. You can write us an email.
If you want make us a video to send it
to Americanhistory Hotline at gmail dot com. Now back to
the show. Let's talk about the victims of these killers.
You mentioned the poor young boy who who the cops
(15:48):
took back to Jeffrey Dahmer and then he killed them.
We talked, and we talked about racial minorities, gay or
sex workers, talk about the police and the for looking
of the marginalized in the late twentieth century.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Well, the sad thing about the overlooking of marginalized people
is that it's still happening today. I do think it's
gotten better, there's more education, but it's something that I see.
I cover forty eight cases a year or something like that,
and I see it all the time. I think that
there are a few things going on. I think that sometimes,
as with the Jeffrey Dahmer example, the police see a
(16:27):
situation and just they don't want to get involved in
some sort of subculture. Maybe they don't understand and so
they just won't get involved, sometimes often with either with
both with sex workers, but also just with teenage girls
who disappear. There's this attitude of, oh, well, you know,
they were dating a bunch of different people, and you know,
(16:49):
maybe they'll come back, or they treat it as if
there's a lot of there's still quite a bit of
victim blaming that goes on. In my opinion, that's.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
What this sounds like to me.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, I was working on a case where one of
my first big cases, and I literally had the investigator saying,
we're talking about a twenty two year old college student
who had been staying with her boyfriend but had been
dating some other people went missing, and he made the
comment he said, well, with the lifestyle she was living,
what did she expect? And I just was I was
(17:19):
actually stunned because I just thought, I can't believe this
is where we are in two thousand at the time,
twenty eighteen, but it still happens. And I feel like
a lot of people are just not being looked for.
But then from the other side, they're not being reported
missing either right away, and that's a big problem for
(17:39):
an investigation. That does make things a lot harder in
the police's defense that makes things a lot harder.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I can't stop thinking about these active cases like here,
I thought we were going to talk about the past,
and we have and we will. But you know, according
to you and speaking to you, it's like, this is
a very immediate threat. This is happening right now, more
than we think it is, more than we realize it is.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, I think when I say that, I'm talking about
things like using the example the case I've been working on,
you have an individual and maybe it doesn't fit into
the stereotypical man who is who needs to kill and
he's targeting women. What actually happens is some of these
people just it's not that they necessarily need to kill,
(18:24):
but they want what they want and they'll do it,
and they will absolutely kill someone if that person steps
in the way of what they want. The example I'm
talking about is a case where a man killed two people,
was charged with murder, but then the police lost the DNA.
So over a period of time, there was one victim,
there was another victim years later. One was his landlord,
(18:46):
one was someone else who got into an argument with
then he ended up breaking into a woman's apartment and
beating and killing her. Seriously injuring her boyfriend, and we
think there might be a fourth person who's responsible for
So it's not what you'd think of as a traditional
serial killer. Or he wasn't stalking and killing just female victims,
but he's killed a lot of people, but he's not
called a serial killer. So I just feel like there's
(19:07):
a lot of people out there who may be technical
serial killers who would not getting counted.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
You're almost saying that we need to redefine what makes
a serial killer, right or.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Just think of it. It can still be someone who's
had three victims with a cooling off period. But I
definitely think that for example, also a lot of the
white collar cases I work on that then turns to murder.
I think people kill people for a lot of reasons.
It's not always the sexual, sadist, rapist, predator. There was
(19:39):
a really good example that I don't know if you
ever saw the Netflix series The Serpent, but it was
really good. It was about a serial killer who was
back in the sixties, seventies, eighties, living in Nepal in
all these different places, and he very much capitalized on
the free love vibe that was going on during that time,
and he was able to kind of scam people, but
then when they would find out out about his scams,
(20:00):
he really just wanted to steal money, but he killed
a lot of them. He had a lot of victims,
So I think there are a lot of people like
that floating around out there, sadly.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
How many women serial killers have you come across?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Come across? I mean, I've never really interviewed a female
serial killer. Well maybe one.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Have you interviewed a serial killer?
Speaker 1 (20:22):
No? No, I was thinking about someone who's had a
couple victims, but technically she's not a serial killer. I've interviewed.
I mean, I've definitely interviewed female killers, and I was
thinking of one because I believe that she I believe
she might actually be a serial killer, but I can't
prove it. I think that women, traditionally, most female serial
(20:42):
killers are not like Aileen Warno's and I think that
that case has been hugely publicized. She kind of killed,
she killed her victims and more what you might think
of as a male fashion. I'm not trying to be sexist,
but just saying, you know, she used a weapon. They
were kind of violent.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Oh I'm sorry, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Just so alien Warnos was a female serial killer. She
was the one who was portrayed in the movie Monster
by Charlie Saran. She had several victims, and she'd had
this really tragic life. She had been sexually assaulted and
raped by men in her own family. She became a
sex worker, and in a way, a lot of people
(21:23):
think of her as kind of a sympathetic character because
she lured some men who were clients of hers into
the car with her and then she murdered them, and
it was usually pretty violent. She would shoot them. She
would actually she would kill them in ways that were
thought of as more of a male way of killing,
because typically experts say that men are more violent and
(21:45):
women are more kind of I want to say this
is going to sound wrong, but low key women do
a lot more poisoning because you know, and honestly, I
think women get away with it more in my personal opinion,
because they are pretty subtle about it. And We've had
so many cases of female nurses who've killed multiple patients
and things like that. And I've had several cases that
(22:07):
I've reported on where a woman will kill several husbands.
So you have people like bel Guinness who woul lure
her borders in. She had a boarding house and then
she would kill people and bury them in the yard. Again,
that was more of a fraud case. She just wanted
the money, but at some point she had to get
rid of the bodies.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
We did a past episode on serial poisoners. Yeah, that's
so before all the age of CSI we live in now, right,
with all the forensic tools. Before that in the seventies,
how did police track a serial killer? Because you talked
(22:44):
about that critical forty eight hours being impossible. So how
did these detectives and police like eventually find their the killers.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Most of them did a lot of what I do,
because most of my cases never have very few have
physical evidence we can see or use anyway. They did
old school detective gumshoe pounding, the pavement detective no our
police work, where they went out, they talked to people
on the streets, They developed sources, and they just kept
(23:19):
following leads. And for example, I'm thinking of the Hillside
strangler case, they went and literally talked to all of
these women. You know, they went into the community, they
knew the community, they got their sources, and then that's
how they got you know, heard about rumors of these
weird guys who were kind of out there, and then
(23:39):
they just followed those leads. They had much less to
work with.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Let's talk about some of the people who are serial
killers but kind of not serial killers. And you kind
of already allude to this, like Charles Manson, Like, right,
he never actually killed anyone or did any right.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I think of him more as a cult leader myself,
think of Charles Manson Moore as a cult leader. He certainly,
I would say, you know it, was responsible for those
deaths and had a part in them. But you're right,
he never actually did it. But then what do you
call people who, for example, will hire someone, they'll hire
a hitman. Well, they didn't actually do it, but they
definitely masterminded it. I feel like he was masterminding it.
(24:19):
So I guess it's the same kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
When I was in college in the nineties early nineties,
two guys I knew on spring break went to visit
John Wayne Gacy in jail. What is it about the
fascination that we all have for serial killers? The movie?
I mean, because you have two podcasts, there are endless
(24:43):
movies about serial killers, television shows, documentaries, books. True crime
is so popular. What is it about the non killers
curiosity about the serial killer?
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I don't know. Since I was a child, i've read
I started out reading all the annual true crime books.
I am fascinated by those things, but I sort of
turned on its head a little bit. I'm much more
interested in the victims, how they survived, how they figured
things out, how to solve the mystery, than I am
in the killers, because the truth is, they're not very interesting.
They're really not. They're superficially charming maybe at best, but
(25:22):
like you said, most of the time, they just got
really lucky. I mean, Jomyan Gacy literally had a graveyard
underneath his house, and he was actually very sloppy. He
just happened to get lucky and that no one was
maybe looking for those people or thought that he would
have done it, and he just kind of got lucky.
I don't know why people were so fascinated with them.
I don't find them that interesting, to be totally honest.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yeah, it was crazy that these guys did this, and
I think he gave them some of his paintings.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
He gave them some paintings.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
The paintings. Yeah, it's crazy, Well, I.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Do, but it's the same thing with you know, it's
not exactly the same, but with prison pen pals. I mean,
I end up in my job writing a lot of
people in prison because by necessity. But you know, I'm
always amazed at how many women want to be in
relationships with these guys, and that does kind of blow
me away, I'll be honest, that's what is it about.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Like you've spoken to some of these women, right, I mean,
have you ever.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Seen the same reason people keep Yeah, we actually have.
I'm sorry to bring it back to my cases, but
it is wild. We have one right now where when
this guy, he's in his forties now, when he was
seventeen years old, he killed his entire family, all right,
and there's overwhelming evidence. I've seen the case fall he
clearly did it. He threw a party, he killed his
young sister, his stepfather, and his mother covered the bodies
(26:39):
up three a party like high school, had high school
people over partying for a week, and I mean it
was pretty horrific. And then he's been in jail for
a long time. But because in Arkansas the law changed
and now he's eligible for release, he's going to get released.
And this woman who keeps calling us is so convinced
that he didn't do it, And I keep saying, did
(27:00):
you read the case file? At least read the case file.
You have children, you know, please read the case file.
And she's just completely believes he's the best thing. Ever.
Maybe it's not to be flippant. Maybe it's the same
thing when people want to raise wild animals or something.
It's just this weird it's this need to have a
sort of dark, dramatic thing in your life that's sort
of caged, safely caged, right, so you kind.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Of get them them them, I can yield it.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
And if not, they're behind bars, so they're telling you
everything you want to hear. Anyway, maybe it's that I
truly don't understand. I was single for a long time,
wondering what I was doing wrong, because you know, every
serial killer in prison I knew how to partner or
multiple partners.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Even the serial killers are in love, you.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Know, and I'm like, I can't get a date. I mean,
this is you know, and these guys are literally I
mean there's they've got ten or fifteen women on the hook.
What am I doing wrong?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Have you saw? Like you talk about you and you
say we like you have a stash and forget me
for not knowing all the details. But but have you
solved I mean, have you convinced law enforcement that you
know this person is a serial killer? Have you solved cases?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
It wasn't a serial killer, but yeah, we we our
first season of Hell and Gone involved the murder of
a twenty two year old girl in the Arkansas Ozarks
who was a friend of my sisters. Well, story short,
we went in, we had absolutely no access to the
case file. We went out and did all of our
own investigating. And when I say we, it was it
was a small staff. It was me, a couple of producers,
(28:34):
and but I was mainly the one in I was
the one in the field all that, you know, most
of the time, for months at a time. Anyway, we
ended up the original investigator on the case who told
me to mind my own business and that investigations were
grown up stuff. Got was removed from the case somehow,
and after that a new investigator came in and the
case was solved in nine months. This case was solved
(28:55):
in nine months. And now there's someone in jail convicted
for that. So uh now, now, well, the Arkansas State
police ever admit that we helped solve it. No, they'll
tell you that after sixteen years it was a coincidence.
I know we did. I know we helped, and that
makes me very proud. I don't care if we solved
it or not. I just know that we helped, and
that's all ever wanted to do.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I'm sure it gave you inspiration to keep going. Oh yeah,
keep find it, finding more of these. So we started
out and you've answered this a couple times during our conversation.
But it's like, is our serial killers an American thing?
Is it? Or do we see them all over? Because
you mentioned someone in Nepal. Of course we know Jack
(29:33):
the Ripper. Is it like gun violence? It's there's more
of it in America, but it's not just exclusive to America.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
I think serial killers are worldwide. I've certainly seen examples.
I'm just thinking about even things that I've read in
the past few years, Russia, Japan, although in Japan it
is more rare again just because it's so there's cameras everywhere.
The UK certainly to even today they are serial killers.
I do think that fewer people become serial killers today
(30:05):
because they're caught earlier, and I think the UK is
a really good example of that, because there have been
a couple like, for example, there's one called the Camden
Ripper who was killing and dismembering people, but I don't
know that he was technically a serial killer because there's
CCTV everywhere. When you go to the UK, it's wall
to wall CCTV, so usually they're able to apprehend people
(30:27):
before they actually technically kill that third person. So you
probably have a lot of people who would have become
serial killers, but they get caught earlier.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Well. And getting to this, and we've talked about this
throughout our conversation as well, but getting to the second
part of Dave's question, which is are there fewer serial
killers today?
Speaker 1 (30:45):
It's a really hard question to answer. I'm not avoiding it.
I don't know. I think that Okay, research will tell you.
Studies will tell you that there are. There probably are.
At the same time, you got to look at where
the homicide clearance rates are going. There are fewer homicides
being cleared now somewhere.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Around mean by being cleared.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
So that's the thing when when the police give these
statistics and they say you have a certain percentage of
homicides that are cleared. It doesn't necessarily mean they're sold
in the persons behind bars. All that it means is
I believe that the police have basically gone as far
as they can and that investigation and either the people
are dead you might be responsible, or they can't find them.
(31:26):
I mean they literally will market cleared, meaning but it
might not be solved. So you've got that first of all.
And then it's only about sixty percent fifty to sixty
percent are cleared. That doesn't include all the missing people
out there. So that means you've got about a one
and two chance of getting away with murder. Yeah, you
got a fifty to fifty chance of getting away with
murder in America based on where you are. And that's
(31:50):
a little scary, to be honest with you. I mean,
when you watch shows like CSI and Law and Order,
you're not seeing that. So I do think that there
are potentially more people out there. I think they're you know,
and plus what about all the missing people. A lot
of them are probably not alive, but they're not officially
getting counted, right, So I do think there are a
fewer serial killers. I do think the technology at catching
(32:11):
them earlier. Has gotten better, but I don't think that
we should rest easy.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
We certainly won't be resting easy here, but it has
been nice and easy having a conversation with you. I've
been talking to Katherine Townsend. She's host of the podcast
Hell and Gone, Murder Line, and Red Collar. Give her
a call some time. Catherine. Thanks for joining us today
on American History Hotline.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of
iHeart Podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show is executive
producer is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are
Jordan Runtall and Jason English. Original music composed by me
Bob Crawford. Please keep in touch. Our email is Americanhistory
(33:06):
Hotline at gmail dot com. If you like the show,
please tell your friends and leave us a review in
Apple Podcasts. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to
hit me up on social media to ask a history
question or to let me know what you think of
the show. You can find me at Bob Crawford Base.
(33:27):
Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.
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