January 14, 2025 • 38 mins
Host Sloane Glass talks about the true crime cases to watch in 2025 with NewsNation’s Brian Entin. The two discuss the upcoming trial of Bryan Kohberger, the arrest of Luigi Mangioni, and the puzzling death of Ellen Greenberg.
Reach out to the American Homicide team by emailing us: AmericanHomicidePod@gmail.com.
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IG: @brianentin
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Before we begin today, I want to say our thoughts
are with everyone in Los Angeles grappling with the devastating wildfires.
This episode was recorded before the fires began, but I
felt they would not be right to not acknowledge the
current events. It's a stark reminder of how fragile life
can be. Our hearts are with you. This is Sloane
(00:23):
Glass post of American homicide. In this episode, we're doing
something different. Rather than look back at cases, we're looking ahead.
It's the start of a new year, and we have
highlighted three cases we believe will define true crime in
twenty twenty five. To discuss the status and implications of
these cases, I am joined today by Brian Enton. Brian
(00:47):
is the senior national correspondent at News Nation. He's a
former colleague of mine and a friend. Brian is an
incredible journalist and he has personally covered all of these stories.
The first is a story that captured the nation's attention
at the end of the year, the killing of United
Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Luigi Mangioni has been charged in
(01:09):
that case and has pled not guilty. Brian and I
discuss what is next for Mangioni. Our second case involves
the mysterious death of Ellen Greenberg in twenty eleven. Ellen
was found with twenty stab wounds. Her death was curiously
ruled to be a suicide, even though many of those
(01:30):
wounds were in her back. After multiple appeals and legal battles,
the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court has agreed to review that
suicide ruling. This year. For our third case, we discussed
the upcoming trial of Brian Coberger, the man accused of
killing four University of Idaho students in twenty twenty two.
(01:52):
Brian Enton is an expert on the Coburger case and
lets us know what we can expect. Here is my
conversation with Brian Brian Entton, thank you for doing this
episode of American Homicide with me.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me son. It's
so cool to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I like to do all my research for true crime
on Reddit, as we all do. Right, That's where I
like to see what are the people saying. It's a
vibe check. Almost every story I look up, someone has
commented well, according to Brian Anton. According to Brian Anton.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Well, and the thing with Reddit and with people on
TikTok too, and on x you have people who are
so interested in the cases and so invested, and they'll
stay up all night going through public records and finding
out things that even I didn't know about family members
and people connected to the cases, and then they'll send
me tips. So it's it's like, sometimes I feel like
I have this little army of people helping me, and
(02:46):
you can find really interesting stuff on Reddit you don't
even see on the news.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Are you still news daddy? Is that still Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
That's still a thing, Yeah, news Daddy. And I used
to be so embarrassed of it. I don't know where
it came from, And now I'm just like, well, I
guess it's a you know, it's a thing.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I guess you.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Know, there's a comfort level that I think you've been
able to give to people around really hard stories. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I think that they just feel like what you said,
that I'm just normal. You try to be professional where
journalists you want to, you know, stick to the facts,
but you'd be lying if you just try to say
you never got emotional or never felt anger, or never
related to some of the family members.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
That kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I always saw that as an advantage. I thought it
was so strange when people to say, well, you have
to leave that at the door, you have to remove
yourself from it.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Or even that you can't help people, like it's just
not who I am. Like, you know, you'll go out
and you'll meet these families and they might need help
with something like hey, do you know someone.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Who does this?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Or you know we're really low on money, right, I
don't know. I just I can't just bet well line
is drawn. I'm a journalist. I mean, that's why I
can't do it.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Everything we do here is trying further in cases, these
families deserve that it doesn't just end when everyone else
is forgetting and moving on, and they deserve to have
those connections and for people to do investigative work to
try to see if they're something that someone else hasn't
picked up on.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I try to be real and like respect the families
and what they're going through. And you know, when you're
in the middle of one of these cases, like with Coburger,
like before the arrest, you know, when the community is
so on edge, you just have to remember what people
are going through with the families are going through, and
I try not to take advantage. I mean, it's it's
not worth it for the story to be the first.
(04:22):
Always I would lose sleep at night if I felt
like I put someone through more pain than they were
already going through, you know, like with with Coburger, I
just remembered this one story. When I went Kayleyanzov was
one of the victims. I became pretty close to her
parents while I was an idahoe and still now, and
before Brian Coburger was arrested, I was at their house.
(04:44):
They lived near Quardelaine, which is a couple hours from Moscow, Idaho,
where the murders happened. And we were doing an interview.
When we were talking and they showed me that Kaylee's
ashes were next to Maddie's ashes. They had them next
to each other. Yeah, because they were friends and they
just both families like Maddie didn't want parent didn't want
to take the ashes away from Kaylee's house, you know,
(05:07):
because they that gave them comfort. And so it was
really like an emotional thing to see. And we shot
it and it was going to be a really big
part of our story. And when we left, Kaylee's mom
called me and said, we really don't want you to
show that part like we thought about it and we
don't want like people to think that like Maddie's family
doesn't care about her something, because it was the opposite.
(05:28):
That's why they kept you know. And anyway, of course,
no questions asked, Like I took it out, which I
think other people wouldn't have done that because in the
moment it was it was a really good, you know,
exclusive element that no one else had. But like you
were saying, when you stay on these cases for so long,
it's not worth upsetting them, And then I would have
felt terrible about it if she asked to take it,
you know what I mean. Like the other crime reporters
(05:49):
and from the other TV networks and stuff will come in,
you know how it is. They'll parachute in for a
couple of days, they'll do some live shots and stories,
and then they'll leave war with like Coburger and some
of the others. I've just stayed in those places, basically
moved to Idaho for a couple months and then been
to pretty much all of the court hearings. So I
think people kind of connect with that. They see that
I stay at these places and get really really invested.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
You stay in You're real. Yeah, you're not a scavenger
in any way. You connect with you I try.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Someone just yesterday called me a prostitute, which I had
never heard. I've never heard that phrase before. But then
I ended up because I ended up. Have you ever
heard of that before?
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Too?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
And I ended up becoming friends of the guy, and
like we bonded and he was cool with me after
we talked.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, of course I want to talk more about Coburger
and everything surrounding that case later.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
OK.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Today I want us to kind of look at and
think about the true crime cases that we should keep
an eye out for in twenty twenty five. And also
you are able to explain to everyone what it's been
like to cover some of these stories in a newsroom
environment in the field. It's impossible to start this without
(06:55):
talking about Luigi Mangioni and what has happened in the
United Healthcare CEO shooting.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Luigi man Jioni is pleaded not guilty to charges in
the cold blooded killing of the United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
This is a story. I've never seen anything like this.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
When the video came out and you had like a
prominent CEO shot right there on the street, and it
was clear that he was targeted. I think the interest
level was really really high then, even we were covering
every single day and people were trying to figure out
who it was.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
We got a tip actually.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
That the killer might be from Atlanta, so they flew
me to Atlanta. And this is what people don't realize,
Like I was just sort of chilling in Atlanta because
we really thought I don't know if you remember that
they said that the bus went from Atlanta, and we
had some other tips, and we were even talk about Reddit.
People were sending me photos of people in the Atlanta
area that looked like the guy in the surveillance video.
(07:50):
We would go drive by their houses like we were
really investigating the Atlanta area. So I was in Atlanta
and then we got the call that they've got a
person of interest in Pennsylvania. So got the first flight
to Pennsylvania. But the newsroom was just was crazy. And
I think what's interesting is there was so much interest
in the story even before the arrest. And a lot
(08:11):
of times when there's an arrest, like it kind of
goes down because it's like, Okay, it's been solved, the
killer is not on the run anymore. But with this
it was like the opposite. I mean, it went crazy
when it ended up being Luigi Mangioni.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
He has become a martyr to a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, there's like an obsession, and it's interesting. It's almost
mainstream in a way. It's not like it's, oh, there's
this weird, crazy cult and people who aren't showing their
faces doing this. It's like some people that I even know.
I don't know if it's the same for you who
have reposted some of these videos. You know, a lot
(08:47):
of people think he's really attractive, and I think a
lot of people have had bad experiences with their health
insurance and this is sort of an outlet for that.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
But it is disturbing.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Have you ever seen so many photos come out of
someone right away, in terms of they took a photo
of him in the jail, they took a photo of
him outside, they took a photo of him like while
he was sitting in his jail cell that they release.
I've never seen them an these photos like that. And
then when he arrived in New York City, it was
literally like a movie. I mean, you've got the mayor
there and the way they were there that.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Felt totally unnecessary, That felt like it was slimy. Eric,
I agree. I thought that that was a slimy move
from obviously for attention.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
And why so many body? I mean there were like
people in swat gear, and I think they were trying
to make.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
It into a scene.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yes, And I think that those guys just wanted to
be a part of a big story. They wanted their
photo taken. He looks like an apostle. He looks like
he is being walked right into his crucifixion. Yes, surrounded
by apostles and.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, and I saw some videos actually where they made
him into Jesus. Yeah, and you wonder what he's thinking, right,
is this the moment he was waiting for, like to
get this kind of attention.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And then it turns out that the alleged shooter highly educated.
He's a great speaker. A lot of people think that
he's very good looking, and he's not in a very
apparent way leaning one direction or another in terms of
political parties. And I think that that made the story
(10:18):
a lot more nuanced. Some people were imagining that this
was someone who was very liberal, and it does speak
to the climate that we are in today. And I
think it's there's something about not viewing people one direction
or another about this story that I think is important.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah, I think so. And I think when the suspect
name comes out, we start in the newsroom searching. You know,
You've got researchers and people. Everybody's trying to figure out
who this guy is, who.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
The family is.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And usually pretty soon you figure out like, oh, there's
he had this previous criminal charge, or oh something bad
happened or something. It was just so weird to everything
was great about this this guy everything, and we started
to I interviewed people very early on that right after
the arrest that went to high school with him. He
went to this prominent boarding school outside Baltimore, forty thousand
(11:10):
dollars a year, really hard to get into, and he
was the valedictorian, so he was at the top of
the class. He was a really really good wrestler, but
he was like a nice guy. They all said he
wasn't He wasn't like bullying people. You know how sometimes
those really cool, popular kids are like jerks.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
He wasn't like that.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
It's it's really rare. I was trying to think of.
There's other stories, and sometimes people love to say no
one expected no one expected it. But there's always someone.
There's always some girl who's saying, actually, he was really weird,
or someone in their class who says, this person was
really off. And we have not heard that at all. No,
not in not in it's breaking all the all the
(11:49):
molds that I could have expected.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
Not.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
In high school, we interviewed people that he went to
pen with. You know, we got two engineering degrees there.
He got his bachelors and his masters, again described as great.
He lived in Hawaii for quite some time at like
a surfing hostel, and everyone he lived with their said
the same thing. He was the leader of the book club.
He was like everybody's best friend.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Was the reaction on social media? How did that translate
in the newsroom? How did they interpret that?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
It's interesting. Some of our bosses are so shocked by
the people who love him and these fans that he has.
And I think some of the younger people are kind
of like understanding of it more as weird as that is,
and they don't agree with it. But I think I think, like,
I don't know, maybe it's generationals I just think like
(12:37):
some of the older people are more shocked by this,
like admiration for him, right.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I imagine that it would be a tricky story to cover
when you're balancing the reality of what's happening on social
media and also needing to deliver the facts of the case.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
It is too because you kind of you know, when
you're covering someone he used of doing something so horrible,
a lot of times you lean into the bad things
about the person because now they've become an accused killer.
Whereas with him, I remember, even after a couple of
my live shots, thinking like I just I feel like
I'm describing him is so like such a good person,
you know. But everyone we were interviewing was saying that
(13:18):
I didn't interview anyone who said anything bad Bryan.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
He is alleged yea. And I think that people forget
that he is the alleged shooter. So I think you
are reporting on him as you're hearing him to.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Be and I, of course yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
But the evidence, I mean, the evidence is pretty overwhelming,
the manifesto. If the police are telling the truth, he
had a gun, you got bullets with him.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
I have so many questions around that, and it makes
me think of all the conspiracy theories that I don't
think that they're going to stop anytime soon.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I mean, there's always so many conspiracy theories with these
cases now. I think people almost it's like a hobby
for people to just come up with every crazy possibility
that they can think of, and then, like you said,
they posted on Reddit and people talk meant and there's
been so many.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
I mean, the eyebrows. The eyebrows are the only one
that I can't I have a hard time connecting the
dots between him and all the photos that we saw
when they were looking for sus.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
It doesn't seem like all those photos are actually him.
I think that they were just looking for people with
a hoodie right at that point the matchup. But again,
if you go back now to the evidence that they have,
I mean, it's a pretty good case in terms of
he had the same gun on him. Police are telling
the truth, which why would they be lying the bullets,
the manifesto, the I D the ID, and I mean
(14:34):
what he screamed out outside the.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Courthouse, he didn't say I'm innocent. So this is not
going away anytime soon. It's only good to get bigger.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
What's interesting though, Sloan, as we talk about it moving
into this year and all the things coming up with
the Luigi Mangioni, we are not going to see him
for while, which is kind of interesting. You know, we
saw the crazy purp walks and all the photos and video,
but now that it's federal, you know, there's no cameras
allowed in federal court.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
What do you think of the federal charges.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
I was surprised. I wasn't expecting it. I think a
lot of people think that he was overcharged just because
of all the attention on the case. But when you
read the charges, I mean, it does make sense. I
mean it brings the death penalty on the table, which
is interesting because you know, if they were just state
charges in New York, you know, there's no death penalty.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Right now there is, Yeah, I saw yesterday, I believe
this was on NBC. They're saying that there's been very
few federal death penalty cases. It's where that has Yeah,
I think this is seventeen since the nineteen seventies. It's
very Rareteen were under Trump. So I am curious to
(15:51):
see how that can shape things. He's facing charges in
New York state and then also federally, I think the
federal trial is going to happen first.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Yeah, that's the way it works.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
The federal charges come first, then the New York state charges,
and then there's charges in Pennsylvania too.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Remember he showed a fact ID they were less serious.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
But we don't know when the trial will be and
I think in twenty twenty five we are going to
continue to hear more.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And another random weird fact to keep an eye on
this year is his attorney is married to Ditty's attorney.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yes, and Luigi.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Mangioni and Ditty are in the same federal prison in
New York City, and likely in the same wing because
they have a wing where they put more high profile people.
So it's just kind of strange to think about it.
Oh weird, yeah, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
It's so weird too because a month ago, no one
knew his name, and now we're talking about how crazy
it is that someone that high profile would be jailed
in the same area as Diddy.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
I always say, wilds.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I don't know if you think about this when you're
covering case, like in the beginning, like when the name
first comes out. I always have a hard time remembering it,
like Luigi MANGIONI, how am I going to remember that?
And now it's just like we say it like it's
you know.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yes, totally. I want to also talk to you about
our next case, Ellen Greenberg. Ellen Greenberg's death happened. You
(17:31):
probably don't know this so close where our office is,
I mean less than less than a mile.
Speaker 5 (17:38):
Ellen Greenberg's body was found in the kitchen of her
apartment during a blizzard in late January of twenty eleven.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Port Record show.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
Ellen's fiance was at the gym and returned to find
their Matty uncle apartment door dead bolted. After an hour
of trying to reach our record show, he broke down
the door to find Ellen slumped in the kitchen.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
She had been stabbed twenty times. Philodopia medical examiner originally
ruled her matter of death a suicide, then changed it
to homicide before switching it back to suicide.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Since then, her parents have been fighting to get this
case reopened.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Ellen Greenberg was found dead in twenty eleven. She was
twenty seven years old. She was a school teacher in Philadelphia.
And we're not going to be able to get into
all the details of these cases because of the time
that we have. But her fiance at the time says
that the door to their apartment was locked. Eventually he
(18:32):
has to kind of break down the door. According to
her fiance Sam, he sees her unconscious, she's covered in blood,
and then he calls nine on one. He is telling
the nine on one operator that he has no idea
what's going on. They asked him to perform CPR, kind
of hesitates. He hesitates that bothers me very strange. Nine
(18:56):
one one call, very strange. We'll play the niem on
one phone call.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Okay, So get a plan on her bank for her
chest anyone we're sure at all.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Steel down by her side.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Oh listen, you can't freak out.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
Her shirt won't come off with the zipper.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Oh she failed herself. Where she's fell all night?
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Well?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
No, her nice checking out.
Speaker 5 (19:23):
What it is?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
A nice chicking out of her?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
She stand herself.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I guess.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
So I don't know where she's fell on it.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I don't like getting into the habit of over analyzing
nine on one phone calls because I don't want to.
Who knows how people will react?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Very fair.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
First of all, this case It makes me mad that
that it's gone on this long and that this has
been classified as a suicide. I actually saw the the
phot the real crime scene photos, which haven't been made public,
but Ellen Greenberg's family lawyer showed them to me. And
she's sitting in her kitchen when he, you know, the
(20:01):
police got photos of the way she was sitting. She's
up against the cabinets, and there's just this giant like
seven inch steak knife just right in her heart. And
it's I forget how long under the call, but it's
quite a ways into this call that oh, my gosh,
there's a knife.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
So she stabbed herself or she fell on her knife,
so says she fell on.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Her If you saw these pictures alone, and I wouldn't
want anyone to see because they're awful, but I wanted
to see them for this reason. There is no way
you would miss this knife. There is no way not
to mention she was stabbed twenty times in the front
and in the back. And there's been medical experts, pathologists
who have gone and looked at the records and even
(20:41):
examined her spinal cord. She was stabbed in her spinal cord,
which would have made her like she wouldn't have been
able to keep stabbing herself.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
It feels like a joke to call it suicide. It's unbelievable.
And what happened originally was the medical examiner ruled it
a homicide homicide, yeah, and then there's this meeting with
Philadelphia police and it gets changed to suicide.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yeah, which has never made sense. And you mentioned the
fiance is named Sam Goldberg. I mean, look, he has
never been charged of anything. Who knows if he's involved
or what. But it's not a suicide. It's just not sloan.
I mean, I've looked at everything. I've looked at the record.
It's impossible for this woman to have killed herself. Yeah,
(21:31):
stabbed herself twenty times and in the spinal cord.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
It's so strange to me for your mind to go
to suicide. And again I'm projecting. I have not been
in this situation. I don't know what it's like to
be in shock. But if I walked into my apartment
and I saw my fiance on the floor covered in
blood with a knife in their chest, and he says
on the nine on one call, no, no one broke in.
(21:55):
How can you know that right away. I mean, my
mind would go to so many other places. I feel
really bothered by and maybe this is part of twenty eleven,
just because she was on prescribe medication, that this was
seen as someone who was mentally ill.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I mean, listen, they thought it was a homicide at first, right,
they called it a crime scene. You mentioned the blizzard.
I think that's important because I don't think like as
many police officers were able to get out there and
detectives initially, but they called it a homicide. Police met
with a medical examiner. It got changed to suicide. But
even since then, the medical examiner has said has considered
(22:34):
changing it back to homicide, and at one point even
told one of the prosecutors, I intend to change it
back to homicide. I agree, but for some reason, it's
just never happened, right, and no one will say why.
I mean, she was a school teacher, she was a
wonderful woman, but it was just little things. You remember.
One of the friends told me like she was obsessed
with her hair. Ellen, she was really into her hair,
(22:57):
and they're like, if she was going to kill herself
when she never there is no way she would have
stabbed because it was all in the back of the head,
in the hair.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
They're like, she would have never done that.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah to her hair, which they're just like, as her
best friend, and I just know that that's not the
way she would have done it.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
I always think about with the snow, her family couldn't
get out right away to be with her. You've spent
time with them, right, what was that like?
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Hard?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
They've been fighting for so long. They've spent almost a
million dollars of their own money for lawyer fees, just fighting, fighting, fighting.
They're suing the city now, they're suing police, trying to
claim that there's a cover up, and just fighting to
try to get the case reopened. And everybody, you know,
they hire all of these experts and pathologists who all
(23:43):
say the same thing, there's no way it could be
a suicide. But for some reason, the city of Philadelphia
just has dug their heels.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
In Pennsylvania is part of the reason why people are
talking about the story again because of Joshapiro. He's the
governor of Pennsylvania, seen as potentially a possible VP pick
for the Democratic Party, but he was attorney general, right
and they turned it over to him, and he kept
the ruling status quo.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, and that's always been very upsetting to the family
and I was even there. So there's two things that
are ongoing now with this case. One is they're suing
the city in Philadelphia police and there was a hearing.
I was just at was so weird to be in
the courtroom because they hear there's Allen's parents and they
have their lawyer and the little legal team, and then
on the other side of the room is just like
(24:32):
all these lawyers of the City of Philadelphia, like they're
fighting the City of Philadelphia. The City of Philadelphia does
not want like to release records. I don't. I mean,
their lawyer thinks that maybe it was just a botched
investigation and now they're just trying to cover it up. Really,
the only thing they can do at this point to
sue them for their pain and suffering and saying you've
caused all this pain and suffering by covering this up
(24:54):
for so long. But then they're also taking this to
the Supreme Court in Pennsylvania, which is a really big deal.
It almost never happens. The Supreme Court took the case,
which is huge, and so they're going to hear it
in the beginning of this year, and that's going to
be a really big deal because the Supreme Court is
going to have to decide whether or not Ellen's parents
(25:15):
have the right to challenge the cause of death.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Initially, they said that there was no sign of struggle,
which was part of the decision to keep the cause
of death as suicide.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Right, and they just didn't think there was a way,
you know, I think the part was on the third
or fourth floor and then the door was locked, they said,
so they thought there was no way for anyone to
have even gotten into the killer.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
But she did have bruises on her body.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
I see, I saw the pictures. She did have a
lot of bruises.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
There's something that there's no sign of struggleslow and this
is just one of those there's something we don't know.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
There's a reason.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Again, was it just shoddy police work in the beginning
and then they were trying to cover up for the
one before that one? But you know what I mean?
Or is there something more going on where they trying
to protect someone. I don't know, but there's no question
that it is not a suicide and that this family
has just I mean, there's just been an injustice.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
What do you say to them when you're with her parents.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I promise them that I won't stop covering it, and
that's all you really can do. I mean, that will
stay on it, that will we won't give up. We'll
keep doing the stories. Yeah, and I think that gives
them some Yeah, they've been abandoned by the police and
people for so long.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
You know.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Ellen Greenberg is a case that in twenty twenty five,
I'm hopeful that there will be some movement forward.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Even though this is happened in twenty eleven, I hope
they still get justice.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, truly, I want to talk to you about Brian Coworker.
We're having a trial this year in August. Can you
(27:08):
just set up for everyone what happened?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, So basically, you know, these four University of Idaho
students were asleep in their beds in Moscow, Idaho, and
they were just savagely stabbed to death in the night,
and there was a massive man hunt. No one knew
who did it. You know, the country was really just
(27:31):
perplexed and into this story. And then Brian Coburger was arrested.
He was getting his PhD in criminology at Washington State
which isn't far from University of Idaho where this happened.
Probably about twenty minutes he was arrested, and it's just
sort of dragged on for a couple of years in
terms of the court process, and now there will finally
be a trial in August.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I want you to tell the story about when you
first got a tip about coworker. Yeah, I'm just used
to tell that a lot.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
No, No, there's just so there's so much with Coburger.
It was like my life for yeah, it's still lives.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
But because you you lived there, you moved there. What
it's like to be embedded in a story like that,
You just.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Become obsessed, especially because you know there was no arrest
for so long, and there was I mean again, I
became close to the families. These were just innocent kids,
innocent college kids, and you know, just I became obsessed
with trying to figure out what happened. And we mentioned
like the army of people online, like you know, the
whole country and world was like obsessed with it. So
(28:34):
it was really an intense time. And uh, I got
this tip. And I don't want to like give away
too much because I don't want to give away any
sources or anything. But I got this tip to come
to Pennsylvania because there had been an arrest and it
was it was from someone that worked within the jail system.
(28:55):
And that's what's so interesting, Like, you know a lot
of people have like these high up law enforcement sources,
and I have some of them, you know, But for me,
like the people who always come through for me are
just like regular people that I've met on social media
who know someone or they just contact me directly, and
that's kind of what happened in this situation. And they
were just like, you need to get to Pennsylvania right away,
(29:16):
Like you know, it was just a random message on
social media.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
So I said, what's your friend is you got a DM?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
DM?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, And I talked to the person and got on
the plane and that's how we were the first ones
to break it.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
I remember on the other side things being in the
newsroom and hearing and did it's being sent to Pennsylvania.
I'm like, why is it? You can't pull him because
none of us knew right away why exactly you were
going to Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
I remember telling my boss like I think I need
to go to Pennsylvania. I'm not positive, but I have
a really strong feeling that this is going to be it.
So we went and then the you know, the arrest happened,
or the arrest had already happened, but it came out
that he was locked up, and it was just it
was crazy. I went out to their house, to his
(30:05):
parents house where he was arrested. It's kind of another
crazy story, kind of to like sneak into the gated
community there because they lived in a gated community, which
again is just kind of my style. Like every you know,
all the other reporters are outside, Like, can someone get
me into the gated community?
Speaker 1 (30:18):
How did you sneak in?
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Again?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Someone messaged me on x Twitter at the time and said, oh,
I live in the neighborhood. Just FYI Like I'm and
I just I wrote her back, I'm like, can you
take me in? Like can we meet at the gas
station down the street. And so she met me. I
got in her car and she drove me in and
took me to their house and like the front window
was all bashed because you know, the police had busted inside.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Yeah, so I videoed.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
And there's been a few times I've done things when
maybe I went a little too far. This might have
been one of those times.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
It was so dark.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I went up to their door and like knocked on
the door and videoed and they were inside like saying leave, leave.
And some people got mad at me for that because
people felt for his parents. You know, it wasn't there
fault and I was banging on their door like in
the middle of the night. But you know, it's like
you kind of have to do it. You never know,
people want to talk to sometimes.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Right, that is the thing. Sometimes people want to answer
the door. It happens a lot. Yeah, it's really unbelievable, Brian.
And then you're it's not like it ends for you there.
You're just embedded in the story.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I mean we followed him back to you know, they
transported him back to Idaho, and I, like I said,
I go to most of the court hearings. It's interesting
the trial has been moved.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
It was it was in Moscow, Idaho, which is just
this little baby college town, little small courthouse, uh, And
they were worried they wouldn't be able to get a
fair jury there. So it's been moved to Boise, which
is a you know bigger city, and so that's where
the trial will be in August and Boise Wow, which
is hard for the families. They have to travel there.
It's probably going to take two months the trial.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
I'm so curious what his defense is going to say.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I think it's going to be a crazy trial because
there's been a gag orders. So we know the basics
from the probable cause affidavit that came out when they
arrested him, but there are all sorts of questions about
whether he knew the victims and what led up to
the murders, and like all of that stuff has remained
under seal, right.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
And I just want to give more background for people.
So there's no clear connection, no direct clear connection between
Coburger and the.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Victim, not that we know of.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
No, And what's believed at this time is that he
was possibly stalking.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Them, possibly yeah, and stocking.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
We don't know why, why them.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
One theory is, you know, he and I've reported this
and interviewed people, you know, he had a rough time
with women, rejection at times, and then he was really
awful to some women and even got kicked out of
a bar once because he was just awful to this
one female bartender. So there's one theory that you know,
he just had this like hatred for women from rejection, right.
(32:56):
But then there's also he was getting his PhD in criminology.
He had done a survey about what it felt like
for people when they committed crimes. So some people think
he was trying to get into the mind.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Of I don't buy that. Maybe when he was doing
the survey, he was trying to get into the mind
of a killer. I don't think that's the reason why
he killed. I don't think he was living out some
fantasy of the perfect crime. To me, that just feels
like too much of a game. It feels personal. I
just don't know what the connection is between him and
(33:28):
the victims. And you can see from his phone records
you kept driving by their place.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
That's what the prosecution says.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
The defense has said, oh, you know, it was pinging
in that area because he liked to go.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
On drives and stargaze.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
So that's one thing that's come out that could be
the defense interesting. It's going to be interesting because they
you know, they found the knife sheath in the house.
That was the big connection. He allegedly left the knife
sheath behind and then they found a piece of DNA
on the knife sheath that connected back to him. But
the way they did the DNA testing is like really
(34:00):
experimental these days. The defense says it's called investigative genetic genealogy,
and basically they got the piece of DNA off the
knife sheath and then like you know, like twenty three
and meters and you can hear those things. They used
that database to try to figure out who the DNA
belonged to.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Which hasn't been like the Golden State Killer.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Which it hasn't been done a lot though, And I
can already tell that the defense that's going to be
something they really go after, like the science of that
and how accurate it is.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
But there's a lot. I think there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
We don't know. The prosecution might have a lot that
we don't know, right because of Again, well that's why
I think it's going to be a really interesting trial.
I think it's going to be one of those trials
where there's just a ton of new information comes out.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah, I agree. I also think he just has a
certain look about him that he is so haunting.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah, he's intense, intense. I mean I've been in the
same room as a lot of times for you know.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
For these years.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
That's like it's awkward, especially when it was in Moscow,
Idahope before it recently got moved to Boise, so the
families would come in for the big hearings and he
sits so close to them, I mean, because it's just awkward.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
It's like the one one victim Kaylee, her sister came
to one of the hearings and had had a baby,
and so she brought her baby to the hearing and
the baby was like I don't know, I always think
back to this, it's like one of those moments I
won't forget. The baby was like kind of cooing during
the hearing, but like Brian Coberger was so close to them,
(35:29):
like you know, just right over it, right, you know,
maybe ten feet away, and it was just so weird,
like here's the guy accused of killing your sister and
you're sitting right here with your new baby, all in
the same little room together. Just like you know, at
certain moments, you're just like this is really intense.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah, this is it's become some sort of generational yeah,
weird cosmic and I don't think cosmic in a carmel way,
I mean cosmic and how did we end up here?
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, and families want to and I get it. I
mean I luckily I haven't had anyone in my family
get killed or anything. But you know, there's a real
desire to go to these court hearings and to be
there and show face.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeah, it makes sense also, I think it. I mean
the advice that families get is that being seen goes
a long way and helps the judge and the jury
to understand the more. That's part of the whole judicial
system that's so awful kind of the spectacle.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Yeah, but it's true.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I mean if you if you're the judge and you
see the family member sitting right there crying, you probably
are going to think to yourself, look what this person
may have done to this thing. You know, of course
you make your decisions.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
They're a human being, you know, a judge is not
a computer. It's it's wild, Brian. I know that we're
all going to be watching you coank trial, and I'm
just so grateful that you joined us today. Of course,
thank you for helping us to kind of get a
sense and understand the worries that we can look out
for and also just revealing more behind the scenes of
(37:04):
your life and what it's been like.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Thank you for listening to this bonus episode of American Homicide.
You can contact the American Homicide team by emailing us
at American Homicide Pod at gmail dot com. That's American
Homicide Pod at gmail dot com. New episodes of American
Homicide will be dropping every Thursday, and if you enjoy
American Homicide, please follow the show on Apple Podcasts, the iheartapp,
(37:34):
or Spotify. Another way to engage with us is to
rate and review the show. Your five star review goes
a long way towards helping others find American Homicide.
Before we begin today, I want to say our thoughts
are with everyone in Los Angeles grappling with the devastating wildfires.
This episode was recorded before the fires began, but I
felt they would not be right to not acknowledge the
current events. It's a stark reminder of how fragile life
can be. Our hearts are with you. This is Sloane
(00:23):
Glass post of American homicide. In this episode, we're doing
something different. Rather than look back at cases, we're looking ahead.
It's the start of a new year, and we have
highlighted three cases we believe will define true crime in
twenty twenty five. To discuss the status and implications of
these cases, I am joined today by Brian Enton. Brian
(00:47):
is the senior national correspondent at News Nation. He's a
former colleague of mine and a friend. Brian is an
incredible journalist and he has personally covered all of these stories.
The first is a story that captured the nation's attention
at the end of the year, the killing of United
Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Luigi Mangioni has been charged in
(01:09):
that case and has pled not guilty. Brian and I
discuss what is next for Mangioni. Our second case involves
the mysterious death of Ellen Greenberg in twenty eleven. Ellen
was found with twenty stab wounds. Her death was curiously
ruled to be a suicide, even though many of those
(01:30):
wounds were in her back. After multiple appeals and legal battles,
the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court has agreed to review that
suicide ruling. This year. For our third case, we discussed
the upcoming trial of Brian Coberger, the man accused of
killing four University of Idaho students in twenty twenty two.
(01:52):
Brian Enton is an expert on the Coburger case and
lets us know what we can expect. Here is my
conversation with Brian Brian Entton, thank you for doing this
episode of American Homicide with me.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me son. It's
so cool to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I like to do all my research for true crime
on Reddit, as we all do. Right, That's where I
like to see what are the people saying. It's a
vibe check. Almost every story I look up, someone has
commented well, according to Brian Anton. According to Brian Anton.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Well, and the thing with Reddit and with people on
TikTok too, and on x you have people who are
so interested in the cases and so invested, and they'll
stay up all night going through public records and finding
out things that even I didn't know about family members
and people connected to the cases, and then they'll send
me tips. So it's it's like, sometimes I feel like
I have this little army of people helping me, and
(02:46):
you can find really interesting stuff on Reddit you don't
even see on the news.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Are you still news daddy? Is that still Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
That's still a thing, Yeah, news Daddy. And I used
to be so embarrassed of it. I don't know where
it came from, And now I'm just like, well, I
guess it's a you know, it's a thing.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I guess you.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Know, there's a comfort level that I think you've been
able to give to people around really hard stories. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I think that they just feel like what you said,
that I'm just normal. You try to be professional where
journalists you want to, you know, stick to the facts,
but you'd be lying if you just try to say
you never got emotional or never felt anger, or never
related to some of the family members.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
That kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I always saw that as an advantage. I thought it
was so strange when people to say, well, you have
to leave that at the door, you have to remove
yourself from it.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Or even that you can't help people, like it's just
not who I am. Like, you know, you'll go out
and you'll meet these families and they might need help
with something like hey, do you know someone.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Who does this?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Or you know we're really low on money, right, I
don't know. I just I can't just bet well line
is drawn. I'm a journalist. I mean, that's why I
can't do it.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Everything we do here is trying further in cases, these
families deserve that it doesn't just end when everyone else
is forgetting and moving on, and they deserve to have
those connections and for people to do investigative work to
try to see if they're something that someone else hasn't
picked up on.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I try to be real and like respect the families
and what they're going through. And you know, when you're
in the middle of one of these cases, like with Coburger,
like before the arrest, you know, when the community is
so on edge, you just have to remember what people
are going through with the families are going through, and
I try not to take advantage. I mean, it's it's
not worth it for the story to be the first.
(04:22):
Always I would lose sleep at night if I felt
like I put someone through more pain than they were
already going through, you know, like with with Coburger, I
just remembered this one story. When I went Kayleyanzov was
one of the victims. I became pretty close to her
parents while I was an idahoe and still now, and
before Brian Coburger was arrested, I was at their house.
(04:44):
They lived near Quardelaine, which is a couple hours from Moscow, Idaho,
where the murders happened. And we were doing an interview.
When we were talking and they showed me that Kaylee's
ashes were next to Maddie's ashes. They had them next
to each other. Yeah, because they were friends and they
just both families like Maddie didn't want parent didn't want
to take the ashes away from Kaylee's house, you know,
(05:07):
because they that gave them comfort. And so it was
really like an emotional thing to see. And we shot
it and it was going to be a really big
part of our story. And when we left, Kaylee's mom
called me and said, we really don't want you to
show that part like we thought about it and we
don't want like people to think that like Maddie's family
doesn't care about her something, because it was the opposite.
(05:28):
That's why they kept you know. And anyway, of course,
no questions asked, Like I took it out, which I
think other people wouldn't have done that because in the
moment it was it was a really good, you know,
exclusive element that no one else had. But like you
were saying, when you stay on these cases for so long,
it's not worth upsetting them, And then I would have
felt terrible about it if she asked to take it,
you know what I mean. Like the other crime reporters
(05:49):
and from the other TV networks and stuff will come in,
you know how it is. They'll parachute in for a
couple of days, they'll do some live shots and stories,
and then they'll leave war with like Coburger and some
of the others. I've just stayed in those places, basically
moved to Idaho for a couple months and then been
to pretty much all of the court hearings. So I
think people kind of connect with that. They see that
I stay at these places and get really really invested.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
You stay in You're real. Yeah, you're not a scavenger
in any way. You connect with you I try.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Someone just yesterday called me a prostitute, which I had
never heard. I've never heard that phrase before. But then
I ended up because I ended up. Have you ever
heard of that before?
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Too?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
And I ended up becoming friends of the guy, and
like we bonded and he was cool with me after
we talked.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, of course I want to talk more about Coburger
and everything surrounding that case later.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
OK.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Today I want us to kind of look at and
think about the true crime cases that we should keep
an eye out for in twenty twenty five. And also
you are able to explain to everyone what it's been
like to cover some of these stories in a newsroom
environment in the field. It's impossible to start this without
(06:55):
talking about Luigi Mangioni and what has happened in the
United Healthcare CEO shooting.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Luigi man Jioni is pleaded not guilty to charges in
the cold blooded killing of the United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
This is a story. I've never seen anything like this.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
When the video came out and you had like a
prominent CEO shot right there on the street, and it
was clear that he was targeted. I think the interest
level was really really high then, even we were covering
every single day and people were trying to figure out
who it was.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
We got a tip actually.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
That the killer might be from Atlanta, so they flew
me to Atlanta. And this is what people don't realize,
Like I was just sort of chilling in Atlanta because
we really thought I don't know if you remember that
they said that the bus went from Atlanta, and we
had some other tips, and we were even talk about Reddit.
People were sending me photos of people in the Atlanta
area that looked like the guy in the surveillance video.
(07:50):
We would go drive by their houses like we were
really investigating the Atlanta area. So I was in Atlanta
and then we got the call that they've got a
person of interest in Pennsylvania. So got the first flight
to Pennsylvania. But the newsroom was just was crazy. And
I think what's interesting is there was so much interest
in the story even before the arrest. And a lot
(08:11):
of times when there's an arrest, like it kind of
goes down because it's like, Okay, it's been solved, the
killer is not on the run anymore. But with this
it was like the opposite. I mean, it went crazy
when it ended up being Luigi Mangioni.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
He has become a martyr to a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, there's like an obsession, and it's interesting. It's almost
mainstream in a way. It's not like it's, oh, there's
this weird, crazy cult and people who aren't showing their
faces doing this. It's like some people that I even know.
I don't know if it's the same for you who
have reposted some of these videos. You know, a lot
(08:47):
of people think he's really attractive, and I think a
lot of people have had bad experiences with their health
insurance and this is sort of an outlet for that.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
But it is disturbing.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Have you ever seen so many photos come out of
someone right away, in terms of they took a photo
of him in the jail, they took a photo of
him outside, they took a photo of him like while
he was sitting in his jail cell that they release.
I've never seen them an these photos like that. And
then when he arrived in New York City, it was
literally like a movie. I mean, you've got the mayor
there and the way they were there that.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Felt totally unnecessary, That felt like it was slimy. Eric,
I agree. I thought that that was a slimy move
from obviously for attention.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
And why so many body? I mean there were like
people in swat gear, and I think they were trying
to make.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
It into a scene.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yes, And I think that those guys just wanted to
be a part of a big story. They wanted their
photo taken. He looks like an apostle. He looks like
he is being walked right into his crucifixion. Yes, surrounded
by apostles and.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, and I saw some videos actually where they made
him into Jesus. Yeah, and you wonder what he's thinking, right,
is this the moment he was waiting for, like to
get this kind of attention.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And then it turns out that the alleged shooter highly educated.
He's a great speaker. A lot of people think that
he's very good looking, and he's not in a very
apparent way leaning one direction or another in terms of
political parties. And I think that that made the story
(10:18):
a lot more nuanced. Some people were imagining that this
was someone who was very liberal, and it does speak
to the climate that we are in today. And I
think it's there's something about not viewing people one direction
or another about this story that I think is important.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah, I think so. And I think when the suspect
name comes out, we start in the newsroom searching. You know,
You've got researchers and people. Everybody's trying to figure out
who this guy is, who.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
The family is.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And usually pretty soon you figure out like, oh, there's
he had this previous criminal charge, or oh something bad
happened or something. It was just so weird to everything
was great about this this guy everything, and we started
to I interviewed people very early on that right after
the arrest that went to high school with him. He
went to this prominent boarding school outside Baltimore, forty thousand
(11:10):
dollars a year, really hard to get into, and he
was the valedictorian, so he was at the top of
the class. He was a really really good wrestler, but
he was like a nice guy. They all said he
wasn't He wasn't like bullying people. You know how sometimes
those really cool, popular kids are like jerks.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
He wasn't like that.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
It's it's really rare. I was trying to think of.
There's other stories, and sometimes people love to say no
one expected no one expected it. But there's always someone.
There's always some girl who's saying, actually, he was really weird,
or someone in their class who says, this person was
really off. And we have not heard that at all. No,
not in not in it's breaking all the all the
(11:49):
molds that I could have expected.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
Not.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
In high school, we interviewed people that he went to
pen with. You know, we got two engineering degrees there.
He got his bachelors and his masters, again described as great.
He lived in Hawaii for quite some time at like
a surfing hostel, and everyone he lived with their said
the same thing. He was the leader of the book club.
He was like everybody's best friend.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Was the reaction on social media? How did that translate
in the newsroom? How did they interpret that?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
It's interesting. Some of our bosses are so shocked by
the people who love him and these fans that he has.
And I think some of the younger people are kind
of like understanding of it more as weird as that is,
and they don't agree with it. But I think I think, like,
I don't know, maybe it's generationals I just think like
(12:37):
some of the older people are more shocked by this,
like admiration for him, right.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I imagine that it would be a tricky story to cover
when you're balancing the reality of what's happening on social
media and also needing to deliver the facts of the case.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
It is too because you kind of you know, when
you're covering someone he used of doing something so horrible,
a lot of times you lean into the bad things
about the person because now they've become an accused killer.
Whereas with him, I remember, even after a couple of
my live shots, thinking like I just I feel like
I'm describing him is so like such a good person,
you know. But everyone we were interviewing was saying that
(13:18):
I didn't interview anyone who said anything bad Bryan.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
He is alleged yea. And I think that people forget
that he is the alleged shooter. So I think you
are reporting on him as you're hearing him to.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Be and I, of course yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
But the evidence, I mean, the evidence is pretty overwhelming,
the manifesto. If the police are telling the truth, he
had a gun, you got bullets with him.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
I have so many questions around that, and it makes
me think of all the conspiracy theories that I don't
think that they're going to stop anytime soon.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I mean, there's always so many conspiracy theories with these
cases now. I think people almost it's like a hobby
for people to just come up with every crazy possibility
that they can think of, and then, like you said,
they posted on Reddit and people talk meant and there's
been so many.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
I mean, the eyebrows. The eyebrows are the only one
that I can't I have a hard time connecting the
dots between him and all the photos that we saw
when they were looking for sus.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
It doesn't seem like all those photos are actually him.
I think that they were just looking for people with
a hoodie right at that point the matchup. But again,
if you go back now to the evidence that they have,
I mean, it's a pretty good case in terms of
he had the same gun on him. Police are telling
the truth, which why would they be lying the bullets,
the manifesto, the I D the ID, and I mean
(14:34):
what he screamed out outside the.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Courthouse, he didn't say I'm innocent. So this is not
going away anytime soon. It's only good to get bigger.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
What's interesting though, Sloan, as we talk about it moving
into this year and all the things coming up with
the Luigi Mangioni, we are not going to see him
for while, which is kind of interesting. You know, we
saw the crazy purp walks and all the photos and video,
but now that it's federal, you know, there's no cameras
allowed in federal court.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
What do you think of the federal charges.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
I was surprised. I wasn't expecting it. I think a
lot of people think that he was overcharged just because
of all the attention on the case. But when you
read the charges, I mean, it does make sense. I
mean it brings the death penalty on the table, which
is interesting because you know, if they were just state
charges in New York, you know, there's no death penalty.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Right now there is, Yeah, I saw yesterday, I believe
this was on NBC. They're saying that there's been very
few federal death penalty cases. It's where that has Yeah,
I think this is seventeen since the nineteen seventies. It's
very Rareteen were under Trump. So I am curious to
(15:51):
see how that can shape things. He's facing charges in
New York state and then also federally, I think the
federal trial is going to happen first.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Yeah, that's the way it works.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
The federal charges come first, then the New York state charges,
and then there's charges in Pennsylvania too.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Remember he showed a fact ID they were less serious.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
But we don't know when the trial will be and
I think in twenty twenty five we are going to
continue to hear more.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And another random weird fact to keep an eye on
this year is his attorney is married to Ditty's attorney.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yes, and Luigi.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Mangioni and Ditty are in the same federal prison in
New York City, and likely in the same wing because
they have a wing where they put more high profile people.
So it's just kind of strange to think about it.
Oh weird, yeah, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
It's so weird too because a month ago, no one
knew his name, and now we're talking about how crazy
it is that someone that high profile would be jailed
in the same area as Diddy.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
I always say, wilds.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I don't know if you think about this when you're
covering case, like in the beginning, like when the name
first comes out. I always have a hard time remembering it,
like Luigi MANGIONI, how am I going to remember that?
And now it's just like we say it like it's
you know.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yes, totally. I want to also talk to you about
our next case, Ellen Greenberg. Ellen Greenberg's death happened. You
(17:31):
probably don't know this so close where our office is,
I mean less than less than a mile.
Speaker 5 (17:38):
Ellen Greenberg's body was found in the kitchen of her
apartment during a blizzard in late January of twenty eleven.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Port Record show.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
Ellen's fiance was at the gym and returned to find
their Matty uncle apartment door dead bolted. After an hour
of trying to reach our record show, he broke down
the door to find Ellen slumped in the kitchen.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
She had been stabbed twenty times. Philodopia medical examiner originally
ruled her matter of death a suicide, then changed it
to homicide before switching it back to suicide.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Since then, her parents have been fighting to get this
case reopened.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Ellen Greenberg was found dead in twenty eleven. She was
twenty seven years old. She was a school teacher in Philadelphia.
And we're not going to be able to get into
all the details of these cases because of the time
that we have. But her fiance at the time says
that the door to their apartment was locked. Eventually he
(18:32):
has to kind of break down the door. According to
her fiance Sam, he sees her unconscious, she's covered in blood,
and then he calls nine on one. He is telling
the nine on one operator that he has no idea
what's going on. They asked him to perform CPR, kind
of hesitates. He hesitates that bothers me very strange. Nine
(18:56):
one one call, very strange. We'll play the niem on
one phone call.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Okay, So get a plan on her bank for her
chest anyone we're sure at all.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Steel down by her side.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Oh listen, you can't freak out.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
Her shirt won't come off with the zipper.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Oh she failed herself. Where she's fell all night?
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Well?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
No, her nice checking out.
Speaker 5 (19:23):
What it is?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
A nice chicking out of her?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
She stand herself.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I guess.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
So I don't know where she's fell on it.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I don't like getting into the habit of over analyzing
nine on one phone calls because I don't want to.
Who knows how people will react?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Very fair.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
First of all, this case It makes me mad that
that it's gone on this long and that this has
been classified as a suicide. I actually saw the the
phot the real crime scene photos, which haven't been made public,
but Ellen Greenberg's family lawyer showed them to me. And
she's sitting in her kitchen when he, you know, the
(20:01):
police got photos of the way she was sitting. She's
up against the cabinets, and there's just this giant like
seven inch steak knife just right in her heart. And
it's I forget how long under the call, but it's
quite a ways into this call that oh, my gosh,
there's a knife.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
So she stabbed herself or she fell on her knife,
so says she fell on.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Her If you saw these pictures alone, and I wouldn't
want anyone to see because they're awful, but I wanted
to see them for this reason. There is no way
you would miss this knife. There is no way not
to mention she was stabbed twenty times in the front
and in the back. And there's been medical experts, pathologists
who have gone and looked at the records and even
(20:41):
examined her spinal cord. She was stabbed in her spinal cord,
which would have made her like she wouldn't have been
able to keep stabbing herself.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
It feels like a joke to call it suicide. It's unbelievable.
And what happened originally was the medical examiner ruled it
a homicide homicide, yeah, and then there's this meeting with
Philadelphia police and it gets changed to suicide.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yeah, which has never made sense. And you mentioned the
fiance is named Sam Goldberg. I mean, look, he has
never been charged of anything. Who knows if he's involved
or what. But it's not a suicide. It's just not sloan.
I mean, I've looked at everything. I've looked at the record.
It's impossible for this woman to have killed herself. Yeah,
(21:31):
stabbed herself twenty times and in the spinal cord.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
It's so strange to me for your mind to go
to suicide. And again I'm projecting. I have not been
in this situation. I don't know what it's like to
be in shock. But if I walked into my apartment
and I saw my fiance on the floor covered in
blood with a knife in their chest, and he says
on the nine on one call, no, no one broke in.
(21:55):
How can you know that right away. I mean, my
mind would go to so many other places. I feel
really bothered by and maybe this is part of twenty eleven,
just because she was on prescribe medication, that this was
seen as someone who was mentally ill.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I mean, listen, they thought it was a homicide at first, right,
they called it a crime scene. You mentioned the blizzard.
I think that's important because I don't think like as
many police officers were able to get out there and
detectives initially, but they called it a homicide. Police met
with a medical examiner. It got changed to suicide. But
even since then, the medical examiner has said has considered
(22:34):
changing it back to homicide, and at one point even
told one of the prosecutors, I intend to change it
back to homicide. I agree, but for some reason, it's
just never happened, right, and no one will say why.
I mean, she was a school teacher, she was a
wonderful woman, but it was just little things. You remember.
One of the friends told me like she was obsessed
with her hair. Ellen, she was really into her hair,
(22:57):
and they're like, if she was going to kill herself
when she never there is no way she would have
stabbed because it was all in the back of the head,
in the hair.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
They're like, she would have never done that.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah to her hair, which they're just like, as her
best friend, and I just know that that's not the
way she would have done it.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
I always think about with the snow, her family couldn't
get out right away to be with her. You've spent
time with them, right, what was that like?
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Hard?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
They've been fighting for so long. They've spent almost a
million dollars of their own money for lawyer fees, just fighting, fighting, fighting.
They're suing the city now, they're suing police, trying to
claim that there's a cover up, and just fighting to
try to get the case reopened. And everybody, you know,
they hire all of these experts and pathologists who all
(23:43):
say the same thing, there's no way it could be
a suicide. But for some reason, the city of Philadelphia
just has dug their heels.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
In Pennsylvania is part of the reason why people are
talking about the story again because of Joshapiro. He's the
governor of Pennsylvania, seen as potentially a possible VP pick
for the Democratic Party, but he was attorney general, right
and they turned it over to him, and he kept
the ruling status quo.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, and that's always been very upsetting to the family
and I was even there. So there's two things that
are ongoing now with this case. One is they're suing
the city in Philadelphia police and there was a hearing.
I was just at was so weird to be in
the courtroom because they hear there's Allen's parents and they
have their lawyer and the little legal team, and then
on the other side of the room is just like
(24:32):
all these lawyers of the City of Philadelphia, like they're
fighting the City of Philadelphia. The City of Philadelphia does
not want like to release records. I don't. I mean,
their lawyer thinks that maybe it was just a botched
investigation and now they're just trying to cover it up. Really,
the only thing they can do at this point to
sue them for their pain and suffering and saying you've
caused all this pain and suffering by covering this up
(24:54):
for so long. But then they're also taking this to
the Supreme Court in Pennsylvania, which is a really big deal.
It almost never happens. The Supreme Court took the case,
which is huge, and so they're going to hear it
in the beginning of this year, and that's going to
be a really big deal because the Supreme Court is
going to have to decide whether or not Ellen's parents
(25:15):
have the right to challenge the cause of death.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Initially, they said that there was no sign of struggle,
which was part of the decision to keep the cause
of death as suicide.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Right, and they just didn't think there was a way,
you know, I think the part was on the third
or fourth floor and then the door was locked, they said,
so they thought there was no way for anyone to
have even gotten into the killer.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
But she did have bruises on her body.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
I see, I saw the pictures. She did have a
lot of bruises.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
There's something that there's no sign of struggleslow and this
is just one of those there's something we don't know.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
There's a reason.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Again, was it just shoddy police work in the beginning
and then they were trying to cover up for the
one before that one? But you know what I mean?
Or is there something more going on where they trying
to protect someone. I don't know, but there's no question
that it is not a suicide and that this family
has just I mean, there's just been an injustice.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
What do you say to them when you're with her parents.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I promise them that I won't stop covering it, and
that's all you really can do. I mean, that will
stay on it, that will we won't give up. We'll
keep doing the stories. Yeah, and I think that gives
them some Yeah, they've been abandoned by the police and
people for so long.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
You know.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Ellen Greenberg is a case that in twenty twenty five,
I'm hopeful that there will be some movement forward.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Even though this is happened in twenty eleven, I hope
they still get justice.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, truly, I want to talk to you about Brian Coworker.
We're having a trial this year in August. Can you
(27:08):
just set up for everyone what happened?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, So basically, you know, these four University of Idaho
students were asleep in their beds in Moscow, Idaho, and
they were just savagely stabbed to death in the night,
and there was a massive man hunt. No one knew
who did it. You know, the country was really just
(27:31):
perplexed and into this story. And then Brian Coburger was arrested.
He was getting his PhD in criminology at Washington State
which isn't far from University of Idaho where this happened.
Probably about twenty minutes he was arrested, and it's just
sort of dragged on for a couple of years in
terms of the court process, and now there will finally
be a trial in August.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I want you to tell the story about when you
first got a tip about coworker. Yeah, I'm just used
to tell that a lot.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
No, No, there's just so there's so much with Coburger.
It was like my life for yeah, it's still lives.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
But because you you lived there, you moved there. What
it's like to be embedded in a story like that,
You just.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Become obsessed, especially because you know there was no arrest
for so long, and there was I mean again, I
became close to the families. These were just innocent kids,
innocent college kids, and you know, just I became obsessed
with trying to figure out what happened. And we mentioned
like the army of people online, like you know, the
whole country and world was like obsessed with it. So
(28:34):
it was really an intense time. And uh, I got
this tip. And I don't want to like give away
too much because I don't want to give away any
sources or anything. But I got this tip to come
to Pennsylvania because there had been an arrest and it
was it was from someone that worked within the jail system.
(28:55):
And that's what's so interesting, Like, you know a lot
of people have like these high up law enforcement sources,
and I have some of them, you know, But for me,
like the people who always come through for me are
just like regular people that I've met on social media
who know someone or they just contact me directly, and
that's kind of what happened in this situation. And they
were just like, you need to get to Pennsylvania right away,
(29:16):
Like you know, it was just a random message on
social media.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
So I said, what's your friend is you got a DM?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
DM?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, And I talked to the person and got on
the plane and that's how we were the first ones
to break it.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
I remember on the other side things being in the
newsroom and hearing and did it's being sent to Pennsylvania.
I'm like, why is it? You can't pull him because
none of us knew right away why exactly you were
going to Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
I remember telling my boss like I think I need
to go to Pennsylvania. I'm not positive, but I have
a really strong feeling that this is going to be it.
So we went and then the you know, the arrest happened,
or the arrest had already happened, but it came out
that he was locked up, and it was just it
was crazy. I went out to their house, to his
(30:05):
parents house where he was arrested. It's kind of another
crazy story, kind of to like sneak into the gated
community there because they lived in a gated community, which
again is just kind of my style. Like every you know,
all the other reporters are outside, Like, can someone get
me into the gated community?
Speaker 1 (30:18):
How did you sneak in?
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Again?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Someone messaged me on x Twitter at the time and said, oh,
I live in the neighborhood. Just FYI Like I'm and
I just I wrote her back, I'm like, can you
take me in? Like can we meet at the gas
station down the street. And so she met me. I
got in her car and she drove me in and
took me to their house and like the front window
was all bashed because you know, the police had busted inside.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Yeah, so I videoed.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
And there's been a few times I've done things when
maybe I went a little too far. This might have
been one of those times.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
It was so dark.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I went up to their door and like knocked on
the door and videoed and they were inside like saying leave, leave.
And some people got mad at me for that because
people felt for his parents. You know, it wasn't there
fault and I was banging on their door like in
the middle of the night. But you know, it's like
you kind of have to do it. You never know,
people want to talk to sometimes.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Right, that is the thing. Sometimes people want to answer
the door. It happens a lot. Yeah, it's really unbelievable, Brian.
And then you're it's not like it ends for you there.
You're just embedded in the story.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I mean we followed him back to you know, they
transported him back to Idaho, and I, like I said,
I go to most of the court hearings. It's interesting
the trial has been moved.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
It was it was in Moscow, Idaho, which is just
this little baby college town, little small courthouse, uh, And
they were worried they wouldn't be able to get a
fair jury there. So it's been moved to Boise, which
is a you know bigger city, and so that's where
the trial will be in August and Boise Wow, which
is hard for the families. They have to travel there.
It's probably going to take two months the trial.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
I'm so curious what his defense is going to say.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I think it's going to be a crazy trial because
there's been a gag orders. So we know the basics
from the probable cause affidavit that came out when they
arrested him, but there are all sorts of questions about
whether he knew the victims and what led up to
the murders, and like all of that stuff has remained
under seal, right.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
And I just want to give more background for people.
So there's no clear connection, no direct clear connection between
Coburger and the.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Victim, not that we know of.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
No, And what's believed at this time is that he
was possibly stalking.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Them, possibly yeah, and stocking.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
We don't know why, why them.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
One theory is, you know, he and I've reported this
and interviewed people, you know, he had a rough time
with women, rejection at times, and then he was really
awful to some women and even got kicked out of
a bar once because he was just awful to this
one female bartender. So there's one theory that you know,
he just had this like hatred for women from rejection, right.
(32:56):
But then there's also he was getting his PhD in criminology.
He had done a survey about what it felt like
for people when they committed crimes. So some people think
he was trying to get into the mind.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Of I don't buy that. Maybe when he was doing
the survey, he was trying to get into the mind
of a killer. I don't think that's the reason why
he killed. I don't think he was living out some
fantasy of the perfect crime. To me, that just feels
like too much of a game. It feels personal. I
just don't know what the connection is between him and
(33:28):
the victims. And you can see from his phone records
you kept driving by their place.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
That's what the prosecution says.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
The defense has said, oh, you know, it was pinging
in that area because he liked to go.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
On drives and stargaze.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
So that's one thing that's come out that could be
the defense interesting. It's going to be interesting because they
you know, they found the knife sheath in the house.
That was the big connection. He allegedly left the knife
sheath behind and then they found a piece of DNA
on the knife sheath that connected back to him. But
the way they did the DNA testing is like really
(34:00):
experimental these days. The defense says it's called investigative genetic genealogy,
and basically they got the piece of DNA off the
knife sheath and then like you know, like twenty three
and meters and you can hear those things. They used
that database to try to figure out who the DNA
belonged to.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Which hasn't been like the Golden State Killer.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Which it hasn't been done a lot though, And I
can already tell that the defense that's going to be
something they really go after, like the science of that
and how accurate it is.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
But there's a lot. I think there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
We don't know. The prosecution might have a lot that
we don't know, right because of Again, well that's why
I think it's going to be a really interesting trial.
I think it's going to be one of those trials
where there's just a ton of new information comes out.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah, I agree. I also think he just has a
certain look about him that he is so haunting.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah, he's intense, intense. I mean I've been in the
same room as a lot of times for you know.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
For these years.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
That's like it's awkward, especially when it was in Moscow,
Idahope before it recently got moved to Boise, so the
families would come in for the big hearings and he
sits so close to them, I mean, because it's just awkward.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
It's like the one one victim Kaylee, her sister came
to one of the hearings and had had a baby,
and so she brought her baby to the hearing and
the baby was like I don't know, I always think
back to this, it's like one of those moments I
won't forget. The baby was like kind of cooing during
the hearing, but like Brian Coberger was so close to them,
(35:29):
like you know, just right over it, right, you know,
maybe ten feet away, and it was just so weird,
like here's the guy accused of killing your sister and
you're sitting right here with your new baby, all in
the same little room together. Just like you know, at
certain moments, you're just like this is really intense.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah, this is it's become some sort of generational yeah,
weird cosmic and I don't think cosmic in a carmel way,
I mean cosmic and how did we end up here?
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, and families want to and I get it. I
mean I luckily I haven't had anyone in my family
get killed or anything. But you know, there's a real
desire to go to these court hearings and to be
there and show face.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeah, it makes sense also, I think it. I mean
the advice that families get is that being seen goes
a long way and helps the judge and the jury
to understand the more. That's part of the whole judicial
system that's so awful kind of the spectacle.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Yeah, but it's true.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I mean if you if you're the judge and you
see the family member sitting right there crying, you probably
are going to think to yourself, look what this person
may have done to this thing. You know, of course
you make your decisions.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
They're a human being, you know, a judge is not
a computer. It's it's wild, Brian. I know that we're
all going to be watching you coank trial, and I'm
just so grateful that you joined us today. Of course,
thank you for helping us to kind of get a
sense and understand the worries that we can look out
for and also just revealing more behind the scenes of
(37:04):
your life and what it's been like.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Thank you for listening to this bonus episode of American Homicide.
You can contact the American Homicide team by emailing us
at American Homicide Pod at gmail dot com. That's American
Homicide Pod at gmail dot com. New episodes of American
Homicide will be dropping every Thursday, and if you enjoy
American Homicide, please follow the show on Apple Podcasts, the iheartapp,
(37:34):
or Spotify. Another way to engage with us is to
rate and review the show. Your five star review goes
a long way towards helping others find American Homicide.
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