September 5, 2025 • 23 mins
The timing was bizarre. On the very day of the release of the final Conjuring movie, the coroner investigating the mysterious death of the paranormal expert touring with the Annabelle doll released his findings. And while the death of 54 year old Dan Rivera was unexpected, the coroner ruled “cardiac issues” as his cause of death, and made a point to say Annabelle wasn’t in the room. That hasn’t stopped people from believing the infamous doll is still to blame.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey there, folks, did its Friday September fifth, and mystery solved. No,
the Annabelle Doll did not just kill a guy, and
the corner even put that in his report, but still
not everybody is buying it. And with that, welcome to
this Annabelle edition of Amy and TJ. This was a
(00:23):
mystery this summer. A paranormal investigator who had been dealing
with the infamous Annabelle Doll found dead. No explanation, We
got a reason why, but ropes, You've been looking in
a lot online and a lot of people do not
buy the answer to the coroner has given us.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Yes, this is pretty fascinating. And by the way, the
timing of the release of his autopsy has not gone unnoticed.
Of course, we had the final installment of the Conjuring
today Friday is its opening release. There were early showings
yesterday which we saw and loved. But just to have
this timing, this news come out all around the same
(01:01):
time as eerie in and of itself. But yes, even
though we got the official word from the Corner that
this was a cardiac event, that did not stop people
from still believing that annabel had something to do with that.
So I was looking at some of the comments, things
like should have left that doll in her glass box
where she belongs forever. Y'all can say it's not real,
(01:21):
but until y'all go get Annabelle and spend a week
with her, you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
And we're talking about Dan Rivera here, the paranormal investigator
who's fifty four years old. He was found alone in
his hotel room in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, and you lie of
this summer and he was on tour with this Annabel doll.
We're just saying annabel doll, assuming everybody knows what we're
talking about. It was the doll that was made famous
by the Conjuring movies, the Conjuring franchise. They certainly believe
(01:48):
Eda Lorraine Warren, that this doll was possessed, was demonic,
kept it stored in a glass case. I didn't even
realize they had been touring around with it. Other paranormal
investigators take it out on tour. There was a soul
doot of it in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. The next day, this
man found dead in his hotel room. No cause of death.
It was unexpected, but not suspicious, So that gets us
(02:09):
caught up on where we are now. They told us
that the time roads these things take time. It's going
to be a little while to get the autopsy report.
But the speculation you can't help. But even us, you
don't have to be into the paranormal necessarily. But given
what we know in the history of the Warrens and
this doll, and everything we've seen in the movies and
the actual history of this doll, we for the past
(02:31):
couple of months have been looking at this and going, wait.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
A minute, whoa I mean, look, I think it's absolutely
I get why people are trying to connect the dots
because if you do believe in what the Warrens, Ed
and Lorraine Warrens spent their life devoted to trying to
help people who were troubled by demonic possession. In fact,
Ed Warren is the only non priest who was sanctioned
(02:56):
by the Catholic Church to perform exorcism. So there are
a lot of folks who absolutely buy their credibility as
experts in this field. There are others who think they're Charlatans,
who think this is all ridiculous. But the unexplained is
the unexplained, and then to get the corner the corners
or the autopsy results basically saying that it was a
(03:17):
cardiac issue. That doesn't necessarily clear up for a lot
of people who believe in the power of this doll,
that somehow the doll or evil couldn't have been responsible
for it. Certainly is he was alone in a hotel
room at fifty four years old, and he had just
wrapped this Gettysburg leg of the tour. And we can
(03:41):
get into some of the other issues, but where Annimal
had been, a couple of tragedies had unfolded as she
left within a day or two. So a lot of
people were already pointing to the doll's powers and not
wanting the doll to come to their city, and so
to have the man Dan Rivieia actually found dead once
he wrapped it up in an unexplained fashion just fueled
(04:05):
conspiracy theorist.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Look, we weren't putting stuff out there necessarily about conspiracy theories.
I don't necessarily find it to be a conspiracy. We
talked about this. We watched the final installment of the
Conjuring franchise Conjuring Last Rites. We did see it last night,
and I leaned over to you at some point because
they were showing the room where the Warrens would keep
all of these items, these demonic items that they collected
(04:28):
from their investigations, and the doll stays in there in
the class case. I just leaned over. I said, would
you go in there? If you had a chance to
go into Ed and Lorraine Warren's basement, that room where
they kept all this stuff, including the Annabelle doll, would
you take the opportunity?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
And I said, without hesitation, no, no, absolutely not. And
you can laugh at that, but I just wouldn't want
to risk it. Look, I think a lot of people
who are a faith sometimes have a hard time with this,
but I was. My mom is a Catholic and very faithful,
and she had at times given me a little just
(05:05):
a little skepticism, a little sneer, saying, I can't believe
you actually might believe some of this stuff is true.
And I said, if you are a religious person, you
believe in the supernatural, you believe in something you can't explain.
You believe in a power that you cannot see. You
believe in a force that you cannot touch, that you
don't actually have proof of other than your faith, And
(05:25):
so for that, if you think about it in those terms,
it's not that crazy to believe that there could be
other realms, that there could be supernatural realms that those
who have passed might have access, and there could be
evil spirits as well as good spirits. And so for
anyone who actually just takes a second to think about it,
it's not impossible in the world we live in with
(05:47):
the beliefs most people hold.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
In this world, there's been plenty unexplained. And there's a
great line to what you were saying that Patrick Wilson had.
I think it was en conjuring three, where he said,
are courts every single day by having people take an
oath acknowledge the existence of God? Don't you think it's
about time they acknowledge the existence of the devil as well?
(06:09):
That is the point, and that makes perfect sense. How
can you be a believer in one thing and not
on the other side. So I don't think this is
There have been all kinds of documented cases of supernatural
You can be a believer or not. But for me
and we have seen enough, we've read enough, we've studied enough.
I wouldn't mess around with this doll. If somebody walked
in our home right now carrying that doll.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I believe that's hell out of here. So I just
got chills when you said that, because I was imagining
attending one of these displays or these tours. There's absolutely
no way I would go, just out of fear of
what if. And I don't want to be anywhere near
anything that is said to have been possessed, that is
said to have caused harm, that is said to have
(06:48):
been surrounded by evil spirits. No, thank you, and.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
We love and as much as we are a fan
of this movie franchise and know about this doll, I
wouldn't even be curious to see it. And if you
all don't know, if you have seen the movies, at
least you know the doll that it is kind of
a porcelain two foot or so sized doll that has
a bizarre smile on its face, but it has kind
of a waxy smooth face to it, and it's it's
(07:12):
not making a menacing look, but it looks menacing. It
just looks terrifying when you see the one in the movie,
but that's not the actual one in real life. It
doesn't look like that.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
That's right. So this, yeah, the one you see in
the movie is like a porcelain doll, like you said,
that's been aged and tossed around and just looks frankly demonic.
The actual Annabelle doll that Edda Lorraine Warren put in
that glass case and said do not touch. It's actually
a large, raggedy an doll and very much like a sewn,
a homemade almost looking doll that's fairly large for its size.
(07:46):
To me, is almost scarier than the one in the
movies because it looks so innocent and childlike, at least.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
The one in the movie. It does creep you out
enough that you would, you know, you would be on
guard if you see this raggedy an doll. You wouldn't
anything of it, which makes it even more terrible.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Exactly, you would pick it right up, not feeling like
it was scary at all. But no, this was the
glass box that the Warrens kept it in in their
home museum was to contain the evil spirited entity, and
they warned about taking the doll out of the case,
about touching the case. And so the interesting thing about
(08:22):
this whole story is that Dan Rivera was a student,
an apprentice so to speak, of Lorraine Warren specifically, and
he studied under her. And he was a part and
a member of the New England Society for Psychic Research,
which was founded back in nineteen fifty two by Ed
and Lorraine Warren. So there was a direct connection to
Lorraine Warren. There's a direct connection to the work that
(08:45):
they put in into the Conjuring movies. And so to
have him die at fifty four unexpectedly in a hotel room,
of course, that's the first thing people think.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Now the corner, I thought this was just interesting. Did
it put out a statement? But yes, put out the findings,
and like you mentioned a moment ago, the fact that
he seemed to die of a cardiac event on his own.
I think there were even reports that they put out
that he reported to some of his friends he was
traveling with co workers, that he wasn't feeling good necessarily
that night is all.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Right, yes, right, at the end of the last day
this was a Sunday, I believe it was a weekend tour,
he told his colleagues that he wasn't feeling well and
he was going to go up to his room and
lay down all right.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So the corner now has made the announcement on the
day that the final Conjuring movie is released. He just
happened to put out this statement, but he said, yes,
died of natural causes, but added this, mister Rivera had
a known history of cardiac issues which were consistent with
the findings. It is also confirmed that Annabel was not
(09:48):
present in the room at the time of his passing.
I thought it was funny that he called it as
if it was a person, not the doll, Annabelle Annabel.
He said, Annabel wasn't.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
In there, and I thought it was funny that he
felt the need to add that a corner whose job
it is to determine how someone died and if the
manner of that death was suspicious, felt the need to
let everyone know that Annabel wasn't in the room at
the time of his passing. But if anyone is a
fan of Edda Lorraine Warren or of the Conjuring movies,
(10:24):
that really doesn't make it that much of a difference.
He was with the doll, he was moving the doll,
he was touring with the doll. We don't know exactly
where the doll was, but he had just been with it,
and so we all know Annabel has her ways. I
mean she can appear, disappear, suddenly be in a rocking chair,
and then suddenly be in her glass case, and then
suddenly show up somewhere else. So honestly, that really didn't
(10:45):
impact me. Although if the doll had been in the room,
that would have been creepier.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Oh, this would have been We would have led every
single morning in the morning run with that story if
it was the case. But as you're saying, right, you're
if folks thought for it. If you haven't been watching
the conjuring movies in the front, you might think that
Robes was just being sarcastic or just being a little silly.
They're talking about the doll moving. No, there is a
(11:09):
documented case with this doll of reports of it moving inexplicably,
moving on its own, showing up in different places in
a house. This is how the Warrens first got involved,
a call to a home where this was happening. This doll.
Someone said it actually was leaving notes, It was writing notes,
and so things were happening. So to suggest here in
real life that this doll might have moved around and
(11:31):
been up to something, in fact, is in line with
what this doll has been documented as doing over the
past several decades.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Now robes that's right, that's right. And look, when Dan
Rivera held this final tour that he had with the
doll in Gettysburg, he actually was making jokes and telling
people that he had taken great measures to make sure
that they were protected being in the same room or
being in the presence of Annabelle. This was a sold
(12:01):
out tour by the way. I mean, people were clamoring
to see this doll. But he absolutely told them that
he built the case with three crosses, which represented the
Holy Trinity, and he said it was stained with holy water.
So he had done what he could to protect people
from the doll or the evil entity that lives within
the doll. While still viewing the doll.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
It's absolutely incredible this has happened. Look, there are a
lot of people in the community, right there are people outside,
but in the paranormal community that look up to this guy.
Who have they've lost someone who was actually an advocate,
a supporter who was I guess like edd Lorraine Warren
were trying to put this into more of the mainstream,
(12:45):
which they did and they're credited for this is the
guy who was really at the top of an of
this world, which is very small. So it is a
big loss for that paranormal community. I know people are
making some jokes out there and whatnot, but we have
to always don't forget that the core of this story
is a tragedy, a human tragedy that is now for
some surrounded in mystery.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yeah, we should mention Dan Rivera had a wife, he
had four kids, and so this is a real tragedy
that an entire family is suffering from. Because again, when
you have someone die that young, that is it's so sudden,
it's so tragic, and I'm sure it does not help
to have all the theories and the speculation and the
online chatter about how he died or why he died
(13:28):
still ever present.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
All right, but why exactly? I know some of you've
seen the movies, you hear us talking about it. But
what started this all? Well, you're not gonna believe, and
we're gonna share once again some of these details about
what exactly this doll allegedly did initially to three young
folks that had them scared to go home.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Welcome back to this edition of Amy and TJ. And
we have just received the.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Official autopsy results of the fifty four year old paranormal
investigator Dan Rivera, who suddenly and unexpectedly died while touring
with the legendary or maybe I should say infamous notorious
Annabelle Dahl, made famous by the Conjuring movies. And these results,
which we have been awaiting actually now for months, ironically,
(14:28):
maybe just coincidentally, came out on the day the Conjuring movie,
the final Edition The Last Rite, has now hit theater
Helbquin nationwide. I mean that really threw me.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I have to be honest, that was a very strange
and odd coincidence.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
He had to have known the movie was coming out.
I mean, no reason to wait. Maybe it just the coincidence.
I'm done with my work, it's ready, there's no reason
to hold it just because a movie came out. I
don't know, it's just it's it that's odd. And it
fell on the exact same day. So we're sitting in there,
we know, we got the news about it yesterday, and
then we're sitting in the theater last night looking at
(15:05):
Alan annabel on screen.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, it yes, and that none of that was lost
on us because this doll's history goes way back. So
it all began back in nineteen seventy when a mom
gave this doll, Annabel, to her daughter, Donna, who was
a nursing student. And that's when Donna says she noticed
the doll making small movements at first, and it would
(15:29):
show up in a room as to what we were
saying earlier about the doll being able to move. So
that's why the fact that Annabel wasn't in the room
at the time of Dan Rivera's death doesn't really change
anything for the people who know the history of this doll.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
But you there are a lot of people listening to
us right now going.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
They're rolling their break. We get it, stop, we get it.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And I'm telling you right now I believe. I mean,
I'm not at all. I mean, you could do percentages
and where I'm on the fence, but there is I
am not one who was skeptical enough to go no,
no way, that didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Huh know, you know what, Stranger things have happened, and
there are plenty of things that we can't explain. But
this doll, in addition to showing up in rooms that
they didn't leave it in. This is really creepy, and
this was definitely shown in the movies even last night,
help Me help us. They found that written on parchment
(16:20):
paper that they didn't have in their home.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Ah. Now in the movie it says, miss me, I
believe with a question mark. But this had helped me
help us. And so that is when they called in
a medium. And this medium tells this nursing student and
her roommates that I guess the ghost or the spirit
that was possessing the doll's name was Annabel Higgins, a
(16:45):
seven year old who had died and once lived there.
And the medium told Donna and her friends that Annabel
liked them and wanted to be love. So the girls
gave her permission to enter the doll. Big mistake, big, big,
big mistake. So after that happened, their friend Lou, who
(17:05):
actually you can see in the movie as one of
the guys sitting on that couch talking to the warrants.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Well, he wasn't talking. He was traumatized, the guy sitting there,
because he went through it probably worse than anybody in
that house, did he not, Yes, he.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Claims that he was awake, but couldn't move like that
sleep paralysis kind of thing that terrifies the heck out
of me. He said. He was looking around the room
but couldn't discern anything out of the ordinary, and then
he looked down towards his feet and he saw Annabel.
He says, it started to glide up his leg, move
(17:38):
over his chest, and then stopped and started strangling him.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
That's unbelievable. I get the idea of that. You want
to your first thought is, come on, of course this
didn't happen, and they're making it up some kind of
elaborate hoax in nineteen seventy.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Okay, okay, that's all right. So Edien La and were
brought in after this account was I guess related to them,
and that's when they told Donna and her friends the
doll's not possessed by some young seven year old girl
named Annabel who just wants to be friends. No, this
was an inhuman demonic spirit who was starting with the
(18:19):
possession of the doll, and its ultimate goal was to
possess them to get inside a human.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
The explanation was that this was all part of the
demon's plan for them to call in the medium to
manipulate her into manipulating them. So she became the authority.
So they trusted what this woman was saying and they
invite her in. So this I would all start it,
believe it or not. Now we go down the years
in the road. There was one other incident that robes
(18:47):
the motorcycle incident where somebody and you could see somebody
doing this, right, They're going to tour the Ed and
Lorraine Warren's basement down there, they see the doll. Some
guy sees the doll, it starts mocking That's the last
thing I would ever do. But starts mocking it.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Well, it's the last thing he ever did.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
When he hopped on his motorcycle after that on the
way home, wasn't his girlfriend with him? Yes, he had
a motorcycle accident on the way home from mocking the
doll and died. Yes, that too can just be a coincidence.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
It could, but a lot of people are pointing to
the fact that Ed and Lorraine Warren, while they were alive,
absolutely warned to never move the doll. So a lot
of these folks are saying online that because Dan Rivera
was spearheading this tour and decided to move the doll
and paraded around the country so that people could see
(19:39):
it and understand what the history is of the doll,
that that is why he died, and that ed and
Lorraine Warren absolutely warned of the powers of this doll
if you moved it, if you touched it, if you
took it anywhere outside of their museum, which they kept
locked at all times.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
And it's locked back up now, right it It did return, yeah, museum,
and it's there, and there's someone new who was a
steward of it, essentially the warden, if you will, who
is in charge of looking after it. But it is
back in a safe place. I actually don't know if
they're planning on touring in anymore after this. I don't
know if they can, don't know if they should. I
guess maybe this is added to the mystery and you
(20:20):
might have more interest in going to see it, or
you might never sell a ticket again. But if it
comes to New York, I might leave town.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Well here's the crazy thing. And then they haven't said
whether or not they're going to it had been scheduled
to have another leg of the tour in Illinois that
was canceled after the death of Dan Rivera. But the
crazy thing is, if you go back to when he
was touring the Doll, it started in New Orleans for
a two day event at a ghost city tour. This
was in May, so this was the beginning of the tour.
(20:51):
There just so happened to be a prison escape, which
we have fully covered in Morning Run, and a plantation
fire that happened and some plantation went burned to the
ground that had been there for hundreds of years. And
so people were already going online and blaming Annabelle for
these two events in New Orleans and said things online
(21:12):
like I wonder what's going to happen in Gettysburg because
they knew that was the next leg of the tour,
And so for people to already be speculating and then
for him to die unexpectedly, that's a that's just a
tough thing to ignore.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Some things we call a coincidence and other things we
leave as unexplained. Can't be in both categories. On this one,
it's one or the other. And this might be unexplained,
or maybe some people will never accept anything other than
that Doll had something to do with his death. But
hearts go out to certainly that that community and and
(21:49):
his family. I didn't know about four kids. Four Yeah,
I didn't know four kids. But that's tough, and that's sad.
But also we we appreciate to a certain degree this
movie making this conjuring franchise, which is the greatest, the
most profitable in horror movie history, just that storytelling and
bringing Ed and Lorraine story to the masses in a
(22:11):
different way. And we have been able to study them.
And yes, people think they were snake oil salesmen to
a certain degree, but a lot of people will tell
you they helped. So no matter what, these are lives
and stories of interest and worth noting and worth taking
lessons from. And I appreciate that we've been big fans
of the franchise. I appreciate that we went and saw
the movie last night that we absolutely love. Check out
(22:33):
our movie review. That episode is up. Also, it was
like eleven o'clock at night. We were not well, so
if nothing else, just have a good time, but.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
We were giddy because we actually felt joy coming out
of that movie because it was just so good, so
well done. It had the right amount of fear and
the right amount of heart, and it just was a
great combo and a great way to end this storied franchise.
But we just want to say thank you for listening
to us, and yeah, check out the movie, check out
(23:02):
our podcast, and just let it be known, we'll never
get anywhere near, not even in the same city as
that navel doll, just out of respect for what it
could represent. So with that, everyone have a great Friday.
Thanks for listening. I'm Amy Robot alongside TJ. Holmes. Talk
to you soon.
Hey there, folks, did its Friday September fifth, and mystery solved. No,
the Annabelle Doll did not just kill a guy, and
the corner even put that in his report, but still
not everybody is buying it. And with that, welcome to
this Annabelle edition of Amy and TJ. This was a
(00:23):
mystery this summer. A paranormal investigator who had been dealing
with the infamous Annabelle Doll found dead. No explanation, We
got a reason why, but ropes, You've been looking in
a lot online and a lot of people do not
buy the answer to the coroner has given us.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Yes, this is pretty fascinating. And by the way, the
timing of the release of his autopsy has not gone unnoticed.
Of course, we had the final installment of the Conjuring
today Friday is its opening release. There were early showings
yesterday which we saw and loved. But just to have
this timing, this news come out all around the same
(01:01):
time as eerie in and of itself. But yes, even
though we got the official word from the Corner that
this was a cardiac event, that did not stop people
from still believing that annabel had something to do with that.
So I was looking at some of the comments, things
like should have left that doll in her glass box
where she belongs forever. Y'all can say it's not real,
(01:21):
but until y'all go get Annabelle and spend a week
with her, you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
And we're talking about Dan Rivera here, the paranormal investigator
who's fifty four years old. He was found alone in
his hotel room in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, and you lie of
this summer and he was on tour with this Annabel doll.
We're just saying annabel doll, assuming everybody knows what we're
talking about. It was the doll that was made famous
by the Conjuring movies, the Conjuring franchise. They certainly believe
(01:48):
Eda Lorraine Warren, that this doll was possessed, was demonic,
kept it stored in a glass case. I didn't even
realize they had been touring around with it. Other paranormal
investigators take it out on tour. There was a soul
doot of it in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. The next day, this
man found dead in his hotel room. No cause of death.
It was unexpected, but not suspicious, So that gets us
(02:09):
caught up on where we are now. They told us
that the time roads these things take time. It's going
to be a little while to get the autopsy report.
But the speculation you can't help. But even us, you
don't have to be into the paranormal necessarily. But given
what we know in the history of the Warrens and
this doll, and everything we've seen in the movies and
the actual history of this doll, we for the past
(02:31):
couple of months have been looking at this and going, wait.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
A minute, whoa I mean, look, I think it's absolutely
I get why people are trying to connect the dots
because if you do believe in what the Warrens, Ed
and Lorraine Warrens spent their life devoted to trying to
help people who were troubled by demonic possession. In fact,
Ed Warren is the only non priest who was sanctioned
(02:56):
by the Catholic Church to perform exorcism. So there are
a lot of folks who absolutely buy their credibility as
experts in this field. There are others who think they're Charlatans,
who think this is all ridiculous. But the unexplained is
the unexplained, and then to get the corner the corners
or the autopsy results basically saying that it was a
(03:17):
cardiac issue. That doesn't necessarily clear up for a lot
of people who believe in the power of this doll,
that somehow the doll or evil couldn't have been responsible
for it. Certainly is he was alone in a hotel
room at fifty four years old, and he had just
wrapped this Gettysburg leg of the tour. And we can
(03:41):
get into some of the other issues, but where Annimal
had been, a couple of tragedies had unfolded as she
left within a day or two. So a lot of
people were already pointing to the doll's powers and not
wanting the doll to come to their city, and so
to have the man Dan Rivieia actually found dead once
he wrapped it up in an unexplained fashion just fueled
(04:05):
conspiracy theorist.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Look, we weren't putting stuff out there necessarily about conspiracy theories.
I don't necessarily find it to be a conspiracy. We
talked about this. We watched the final installment of the
Conjuring franchise Conjuring Last Rites. We did see it last night,
and I leaned over to you at some point because
they were showing the room where the Warrens would keep
all of these items, these demonic items that they collected
(04:28):
from their investigations, and the doll stays in there in
the class case. I just leaned over. I said, would
you go in there? If you had a chance to
go into Ed and Lorraine Warren's basement, that room where
they kept all this stuff, including the Annabelle doll, would
you take the opportunity?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
And I said, without hesitation, no, no, absolutely not. And
you can laugh at that, but I just wouldn't want
to risk it. Look, I think a lot of people
who are a faith sometimes have a hard time with this,
but I was. My mom is a Catholic and very faithful,
and she had at times given me a little just
(05:05):
a little skepticism, a little sneer, saying, I can't believe
you actually might believe some of this stuff is true.
And I said, if you are a religious person, you
believe in the supernatural, you believe in something you can't explain.
You believe in a power that you cannot see. You
believe in a force that you cannot touch, that you
don't actually have proof of other than your faith, And
(05:25):
so for that, if you think about it in those terms,
it's not that crazy to believe that there could be
other realms, that there could be supernatural realms that those
who have passed might have access, and there could be
evil spirits as well as good spirits. And so for
anyone who actually just takes a second to think about it,
it's not impossible in the world we live in with
(05:47):
the beliefs most people hold.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
In this world, there's been plenty unexplained. And there's a
great line to what you were saying that Patrick Wilson had.
I think it was en conjuring three, where he said,
are courts every single day by having people take an
oath acknowledge the existence of God? Don't you think it's
about time they acknowledge the existence of the devil as well?
(06:09):
That is the point, and that makes perfect sense. How
can you be a believer in one thing and not
on the other side. So I don't think this is
There have been all kinds of documented cases of supernatural
You can be a believer or not. But for me
and we have seen enough, we've read enough, we've studied enough.
I wouldn't mess around with this doll. If somebody walked
in our home right now carrying that doll.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I believe that's hell out of here. So I just
got chills when you said that, because I was imagining
attending one of these displays or these tours. There's absolutely
no way I would go, just out of fear of
what if. And I don't want to be anywhere near
anything that is said to have been possessed, that is
said to have caused harm, that is said to have
(06:48):
been surrounded by evil spirits. No, thank you, and.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
We love and as much as we are a fan
of this movie franchise and know about this doll, I
wouldn't even be curious to see it. And if you
all don't know, if you have seen the movies, at
least you know the doll that it is kind of
a porcelain two foot or so sized doll that has
a bizarre smile on its face, but it has kind
of a waxy smooth face to it, and it's it's
(07:12):
not making a menacing look, but it looks menacing. It
just looks terrifying when you see the one in the movie,
but that's not the actual one in real life. It
doesn't look like that.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
That's right. So this, yeah, the one you see in
the movie is like a porcelain doll, like you said,
that's been aged and tossed around and just looks frankly demonic.
The actual Annabelle doll that Edda Lorraine Warren put in
that glass case and said do not touch. It's actually
a large, raggedy an doll and very much like a sewn,
a homemade almost looking doll that's fairly large for its size.
(07:46):
To me, is almost scarier than the one in the
movies because it looks so innocent and childlike, at least.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
The one in the movie. It does creep you out
enough that you would, you know, you would be on
guard if you see this raggedy an doll. You wouldn't
anything of it, which makes it even more terrible.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Exactly, you would pick it right up, not feeling like
it was scary at all. But no, this was the
glass box that the Warrens kept it in in their
home museum was to contain the evil spirited entity, and
they warned about taking the doll out of the case,
about touching the case. And so the interesting thing about
(08:22):
this whole story is that Dan Rivera was a student,
an apprentice so to speak, of Lorraine Warren specifically, and
he studied under her. And he was a part and
a member of the New England Society for Psychic Research,
which was founded back in nineteen fifty two by Ed
and Lorraine Warren. So there was a direct connection to
Lorraine Warren. There's a direct connection to the work that
(08:45):
they put in into the Conjuring movies. And so to
have him die at fifty four unexpectedly in a hotel room,
of course, that's the first thing people think.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Now the corner, I thought this was just interesting. Did
it put out a statement? But yes, put out the findings,
and like you mentioned a moment ago, the fact that
he seemed to die of a cardiac event on his own.
I think there were even reports that they put out
that he reported to some of his friends he was
traveling with co workers, that he wasn't feeling good necessarily
that night is all.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Right, yes, right, at the end of the last day
this was a Sunday, I believe it was a weekend tour,
he told his colleagues that he wasn't feeling well and
he was going to go up to his room and
lay down all right.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So the corner now has made the announcement on the
day that the final Conjuring movie is released. He just
happened to put out this statement, but he said, yes,
died of natural causes, but added this, mister Rivera had
a known history of cardiac issues which were consistent with
the findings. It is also confirmed that Annabel was not
(09:48):
present in the room at the time of his passing.
I thought it was funny that he called it as
if it was a person, not the doll, Annabelle Annabel.
He said, Annabel wasn't.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
In there, and I thought it was funny that he
felt the need to add that a corner whose job
it is to determine how someone died and if the
manner of that death was suspicious, felt the need to
let everyone know that Annabel wasn't in the room at
the time of his passing. But if anyone is a
fan of Edda Lorraine Warren or of the Conjuring movies,
(10:24):
that really doesn't make it that much of a difference.
He was with the doll, he was moving the doll,
he was touring with the doll. We don't know exactly
where the doll was, but he had just been with it,
and so we all know Annabel has her ways. I
mean she can appear, disappear, suddenly be in a rocking chair,
and then suddenly be in her glass case, and then
suddenly show up somewhere else. So honestly, that really didn't
(10:45):
impact me. Although if the doll had been in the room,
that would have been creepier.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Oh, this would have been We would have led every
single morning in the morning run with that story if
it was the case. But as you're saying, right, you're
if folks thought for it. If you haven't been watching
the conjuring movies in the front, you might think that
Robes was just being sarcastic or just being a little silly.
They're talking about the doll moving. No, there is a
(11:09):
documented case with this doll of reports of it moving inexplicably,
moving on its own, showing up in different places in
a house. This is how the Warrens first got involved,
a call to a home where this was happening. This doll.
Someone said it actually was leaving notes, It was writing notes,
and so things were happening. So to suggest here in
real life that this doll might have moved around and
(11:31):
been up to something, in fact, is in line with
what this doll has been documented as doing over the
past several decades.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Now robes that's right, that's right. And look, when Dan
Rivera held this final tour that he had with the
doll in Gettysburg, he actually was making jokes and telling
people that he had taken great measures to make sure
that they were protected being in the same room or
being in the presence of Annabelle. This was a sold
(12:01):
out tour by the way. I mean, people were clamoring
to see this doll. But he absolutely told them that
he built the case with three crosses, which represented the
Holy Trinity, and he said it was stained with holy water.
So he had done what he could to protect people
from the doll or the evil entity that lives within
the doll. While still viewing the doll.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
It's absolutely incredible this has happened. Look, there are a
lot of people in the community, right there are people outside,
but in the paranormal community that look up to this guy.
Who have they've lost someone who was actually an advocate,
a supporter who was I guess like edd Lorraine Warren
were trying to put this into more of the mainstream,
(12:45):
which they did and they're credited for this is the
guy who was really at the top of an of
this world, which is very small. So it is a
big loss for that paranormal community. I know people are
making some jokes out there and whatnot, but we have
to always don't forget that the core of this story
is a tragedy, a human tragedy that is now for
some surrounded in mystery.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yeah, we should mention Dan Rivera had a wife, he
had four kids, and so this is a real tragedy
that an entire family is suffering from. Because again, when
you have someone die that young, that is it's so sudden,
it's so tragic, and I'm sure it does not help
to have all the theories and the speculation and the
online chatter about how he died or why he died
(13:28):
still ever present.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
All right, but why exactly? I know some of you've
seen the movies, you hear us talking about it. But
what started this all? Well, you're not gonna believe, and
we're gonna share once again some of these details about
what exactly this doll allegedly did initially to three young
folks that had them scared to go home.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Welcome back to this edition of Amy and TJ. And
we have just received the.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Official autopsy results of the fifty four year old paranormal
investigator Dan Rivera, who suddenly and unexpectedly died while touring
with the legendary or maybe I should say infamous notorious
Annabelle Dahl, made famous by the Conjuring movies. And these results,
which we have been awaiting actually now for months, ironically,
(14:28):
maybe just coincidentally, came out on the day the Conjuring movie,
the final Edition The Last Rite, has now hit theater
Helbquin nationwide. I mean that really threw me.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I have to be honest, that was a very strange
and odd coincidence.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
He had to have known the movie was coming out.
I mean, no reason to wait. Maybe it just the coincidence.
I'm done with my work, it's ready, there's no reason
to hold it just because a movie came out. I
don't know, it's just it's it that's odd. And it
fell on the exact same day. So we're sitting in there,
we know, we got the news about it yesterday, and
then we're sitting in the theater last night looking at
(15:05):
Alan annabel on screen.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, it yes, and that none of that was lost
on us because this doll's history goes way back. So
it all began back in nineteen seventy when a mom
gave this doll, Annabel, to her daughter, Donna, who was
a nursing student. And that's when Donna says she noticed
the doll making small movements at first, and it would
(15:29):
show up in a room as to what we were
saying earlier about the doll being able to move. So
that's why the fact that Annabel wasn't in the room
at the time of Dan Rivera's death doesn't really change
anything for the people who know the history of this doll.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
But you there are a lot of people listening to
us right now going.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
They're rolling their break. We get it, stop, we get it.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And I'm telling you right now I believe. I mean,
I'm not at all. I mean, you could do percentages
and where I'm on the fence, but there is I
am not one who was skeptical enough to go no,
no way, that didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Huh know, you know what, Stranger things have happened, and
there are plenty of things that we can't explain. But
this doll, in addition to showing up in rooms that
they didn't leave it in. This is really creepy, and
this was definitely shown in the movies even last night,
help Me help us. They found that written on parchment
(16:20):
paper that they didn't have in their home.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Ah. Now in the movie it says, miss me, I
believe with a question mark. But this had helped me
help us. And so that is when they called in
a medium. And this medium tells this nursing student and
her roommates that I guess the ghost or the spirit
that was possessing the doll's name was Annabel Higgins, a
(16:45):
seven year old who had died and once lived there.
And the medium told Donna and her friends that Annabel
liked them and wanted to be love. So the girls
gave her permission to enter the doll. Big mistake, big, big,
big mistake. So after that happened, their friend Lou, who
(17:05):
actually you can see in the movie as one of
the guys sitting on that couch talking to the warrants.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Well, he wasn't talking. He was traumatized, the guy sitting there,
because he went through it probably worse than anybody in
that house, did he not, Yes, he.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Claims that he was awake, but couldn't move like that
sleep paralysis kind of thing that terrifies the heck out
of me. He said. He was looking around the room
but couldn't discern anything out of the ordinary, and then
he looked down towards his feet and he saw Annabel.
He says, it started to glide up his leg, move
(17:38):
over his chest, and then stopped and started strangling him.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
That's unbelievable. I get the idea of that. You want
to your first thought is, come on, of course this
didn't happen, and they're making it up some kind of
elaborate hoax in nineteen seventy.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Okay, okay, that's all right. So Edien La and were
brought in after this account was I guess related to them,
and that's when they told Donna and her friends the
doll's not possessed by some young seven year old girl
named Annabel who just wants to be friends. No, this
was an inhuman demonic spirit who was starting with the
(18:19):
possession of the doll, and its ultimate goal was to
possess them to get inside a human.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
The explanation was that this was all part of the
demon's plan for them to call in the medium to
manipulate her into manipulating them. So she became the authority.
So they trusted what this woman was saying and they
invite her in. So this I would all start it,
believe it or not. Now we go down the years
in the road. There was one other incident that robes
(18:47):
the motorcycle incident where somebody and you could see somebody
doing this, right, They're going to tour the Ed and
Lorraine Warren's basement down there, they see the doll. Some
guy sees the doll, it starts mocking That's the last
thing I would ever do. But starts mocking it.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Well, it's the last thing he ever did.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
When he hopped on his motorcycle after that on the
way home, wasn't his girlfriend with him? Yes, he had
a motorcycle accident on the way home from mocking the
doll and died. Yes, that too can just be a coincidence.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
It could, but a lot of people are pointing to
the fact that Ed and Lorraine Warren, while they were alive,
absolutely warned to never move the doll. So a lot
of these folks are saying online that because Dan Rivera
was spearheading this tour and decided to move the doll
and paraded around the country so that people could see
(19:39):
it and understand what the history is of the doll,
that that is why he died, and that ed and
Lorraine Warren absolutely warned of the powers of this doll
if you moved it, if you touched it, if you
took it anywhere outside of their museum, which they kept
locked at all times.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
And it's locked back up now, right it It did return, yeah, museum,
and it's there, and there's someone new who was a
steward of it, essentially the warden, if you will, who
is in charge of looking after it. But it is
back in a safe place. I actually don't know if
they're planning on touring in anymore after this. I don't
know if they can, don't know if they should. I
guess maybe this is added to the mystery and you
(20:20):
might have more interest in going to see it, or
you might never sell a ticket again. But if it
comes to New York, I might leave town.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Well here's the crazy thing. And then they haven't said
whether or not they're going to it had been scheduled
to have another leg of the tour in Illinois that
was canceled after the death of Dan Rivera. But the
crazy thing is, if you go back to when he
was touring the Doll, it started in New Orleans for
a two day event at a ghost city tour. This
was in May, so this was the beginning of the tour.
(20:51):
There just so happened to be a prison escape, which
we have fully covered in Morning Run, and a plantation
fire that happened and some plantation went burned to the
ground that had been there for hundreds of years. And
so people were already going online and blaming Annabelle for
these two events in New Orleans and said things online
(21:12):
like I wonder what's going to happen in Gettysburg because
they knew that was the next leg of the tour,
And so for people to already be speculating and then
for him to die unexpectedly, that's a that's just a
tough thing to ignore.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Some things we call a coincidence and other things we
leave as unexplained. Can't be in both categories. On this one,
it's one or the other. And this might be unexplained,
or maybe some people will never accept anything other than
that Doll had something to do with his death. But
hearts go out to certainly that that community and and
(21:49):
his family. I didn't know about four kids. Four Yeah,
I didn't know four kids. But that's tough, and that's sad.
But also we we appreciate to a certain degree this
movie making this conjuring franchise, which is the greatest, the
most profitable in horror movie history, just that storytelling and
bringing Ed and Lorraine story to the masses in a
(22:11):
different way. And we have been able to study them.
And yes, people think they were snake oil salesmen to
a certain degree, but a lot of people will tell
you they helped. So no matter what, these are lives
and stories of interest and worth noting and worth taking
lessons from. And I appreciate that we've been big fans
of the franchise. I appreciate that we went and saw
the movie last night that we absolutely love. Check out
(22:33):
our movie review. That episode is up. Also, it was
like eleven o'clock at night. We were not well, so
if nothing else, just have a good time, but.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
We were giddy because we actually felt joy coming out
of that movie because it was just so good, so
well done. It had the right amount of fear and
the right amount of heart, and it just was a
great combo and a great way to end this storied franchise.
But we just want to say thank you for listening
to us, and yeah, check out the movie, check out
(23:02):
our podcast, and just let it be known, we'll never
get anywhere near, not even in the same city as
that navel doll, just out of respect for what it
could represent. So with that, everyone have a great Friday.
Thanks for listening. I'm Amy Robot alongside TJ. Holmes. Talk
to you soon.
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