January 25, 2024 • 52 mins
A few days post-argument, Amy and T.J. reflect on what happened and share how they feel today.
They lean in and address your comments and negative feedback while also examining how their argument was presented in the media.
T.J. explains why he initially didn’t want to air it and how his fears later became reality.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey there, everybody. Welcome to the Amy and TJ podcast
make Up addition, where we make up as a couple
for the fight we got into for the previous episode
of this podcast. I'm kidding. Do we have making up
to do after the last one?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Well? I think here's what happened. We made up and
then we because we were re listening to the podcast
because we were debating whether or not to actually air it.
Having to re listen to it brought up a lot
of other emotions, I think for both of us, and
we had to re examine the fight because maybe it
(00:43):
hadn't been.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Okay, So we haven't made up.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
We're in the process of it.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Wow. Even on that, we're in two different places because
I'm done and I'm over it. You know, I didn't
know we were still working.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
You're over it.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I'm over it because I would really like to be
not how this was supposed to go. Welcome everybody, Yes,
how about this? Did anything the reaction any of the
reaction we got from the last podcast? What surprised you
by the reaction?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Okay, that's a really good question.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
What surprised me the most is that people were surprised
because I think if anyone has been in a relationship
in their life or are currently in a relationship. Don't
y'all fight? Don't you have issues? I think I was
surprised that people said it was too soon for us
to have a fight. We've been together as a couple
officially for almost almost exactly a year and a half.
(01:37):
We're close to it, we're coming up on it. I
feel like we should. If we didn't have a fight,
if we didn't argue, that would be a red flag.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Do you really think there's a general idea consensus for
most level headed folks that are surprised that two people
in a relationship might have a disagreement.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
And by the way, there was no yelling. I was
actually really proud of So I was proud of us.
Would I listen?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
And I don't think we ever yell. No, So I
think we fight.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I mean, fighting is not fun, It's not fun at all,
But I don't. I actually feel pretty good about how
we fought, and I think it was clear that we
were not communicating great and that's what we're working on.
But I guess that was my biggest surprise, that people
really were taken aback.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
That we fought, or that we disagreed.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I would love to see their relationships, wow, and take
some notes because I would love to not fight.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
That'd be amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
But don't they tell you, you know you're in trouble if
you're in a relationship and.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
You don't fight, right, because the opposite of love is indifference,
and in difference means yeah, you do you, I do
me bye or whatever, like living alongside somebody and not
with someone, And so yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I that was the biggest surprise.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Did you have a something that stood out to you
that surprised you that would have to be it?
Speaker 1 (02:58):
That that Yeah, it's the end of us because we
told people that we've had a disagreement. Just that that
part's fascinating. But I think a lot there are a
lot of reasonable, level headed folks, folks who are in
relationships who listen to it, and we got a lot
of those responses and read them. They see themselves in
(03:18):
that disagreement, They see themselves in the lack of communication,
and sometimes people come down on what their own They
bring their own junk into it as they listen. Your
ears are filtering what you're hearing based on your own
experience and sometimes yes, your own bias, but yeah, a
lot of women will say yes TJ da da da,
and a lot of men were going another way. And
(03:39):
then Frank it went along racial lines as well, some
black and white. It was that was fascinating. But yeah,
I was surprised that we're not supposed to fight.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I know, I always I think there were two things
at play that men are is it Men are from
are from Mars, from Venus, matter from Mars. Women are
from Venus, and so that was absolutely and then you
know the black white thing. It's it's interesting that there
are different ways to look at it, and that's part
of I think that's part of the reason why we
wanted to put it out there. And I love what
(04:12):
someone wrote. They talked about what we did in the
podcast and they gave it a name that I had
never heard before.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Well, you told me, oh, oh, the value tainment. I
wish I could give him credit. A guy that passed
it along, and I, okay, if that's something you all
are familiar with, I never heard it before. But he
called it value tainment to where yes, we are listening
to you and we are being we are engaged, and
to some degree you have to be entertaining in all
(04:40):
you do, but there there was some value in it,
and he used that word, and I'll think, Wow, I
guess that's really what we were going for. I don't
think we were talking about entertaining anybody in doing so,
but he found value in what we were doing.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I love that, and I think that's something that it
made me feel better about making the decision to go
ahead and err, because that is what we were hoping
to do, a just to say hey, here we are
and we don't And we said this from the beginning.
We didn't want to put out an Instagram all smiles
type of podcast where hey, look at us, We're doing great,
(05:16):
everything's rosy. We wanted to be real. So we figured,
if we're going to put the good stuff, we should
also put the stuff that's tough and hard and maybe
people can A not feel so alone or B learn
something from it. And we got a lot of really
positive comments from people saying just that, oh my gosh,
this made me feel validated. Oh my goodness, I feel heard. Wow,
(05:38):
I have the same fight with my husband or my wife, And.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
That felt cool. That's what I was hoping for at
the very least.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Okay, Well, we talked about I wasn't thinking that at
the time when we first set up the microphones, and
again that disagreement, that back and forth happened. I guess
we're talking to you now several days removed from it,
but initially I didn't think about we went back and
forth about the why. But we're have Tammy in South
Dakota right now. Give you the why because Robot and
(06:08):
we're going to talk a little more about why and
what went into how the last episode actually got on
the air. But we are going to read a statement
not prepared by us, not prepared for us, but a
statement word for word for somebody named Tammy from South Dakota.
And I think Robe she sums up better than you
and I ever could, and she got it. She got
(06:30):
it exactly like we wanted people to get it.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So go ahead, all right, this is from Tammy. Yes,
we love this, she said.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
She writes.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Relationships are hard enough, let alone having to do it
under the public eye. And then some remember that these
two are human beings, just like all of us. They
are choosing love, and love is not easy. It's something
you have to work at every day. They could choose
to be fake and lie to us all and not
share their genuine feelings, making the public feel more alone
(06:58):
than ever. But no, they are choosing to be vulnerable
and talking through that They don't have everything figured out.
They are sharing their triumphs and struggles, joy, laughter, pain,
my gosh, they have shared some deep stuff and feelings.
All these things they are sharing should make you all
feel not alone. Just stop being judgmental and let them
(07:19):
work through things and maybe help a whole lot of
others be honest with each other and themselves. They are
both human. Thank you, Roboc and TJ for sharing your
lives and helping others figure things out along the way.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Tam Me from South Dakota, thank you for that message
and thank you for putting it in the best of ways.
I was surprised, also rose by some people were so
it took time to be so thoughtful in the responses
that they did given. I absolutely appreciated that, But I
thought she put it in a way that we never could.
And I appreciated it, but that wasn't I didn't think
(07:53):
about it when we put it out or decided to
the like helping someone. I didn't think about it as
a man of anyone else looking at it in feeling
heard or seen or not alone.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
But that was a lot of that there was, And
I don't know that that's what our intention was necessarily.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I think we just had set out.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
When we started to do this that we weren't going
to fake our way through anything or put on a
strong face if we didn't feel it. And we also
knew that there might be times working together like this
in a relationship that we wouldn't be great, that we
wouldn't be in a good space, and how are we
going to deal with that? And I think we decided
(08:33):
in that moment that we were going to deal with
it by being real about it, and.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I was me.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I was definitely I think hopeful that by putting it
out people would relate. I don't know that we were
setting out to help anyone, but just maybe even feel
connected to people saying, hey, we're all in this together.
These relationship things ain't easy, and nobody is immune from
those types of difficulties. And I think, especially early on
in a relationship, regardless of how long we had known
(09:01):
each other and how long we had been friends, and
how long we had leaned on each other about other relationships,
it's still different when it's the two of you, and
it's just you and you have to figure it out.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
In all honesty, I didn't want to put it out
to let folks know. We recorded this several again several
days ago, but then you and I listened to it,
and we didn't let anybody else know. We listened to
it first, and then we let our iHeart team, in
particular Amy sugarm and you over hear her name a lot,
so just let you know who she is. When you
(09:33):
think iHeart, just think Amy Sugar. Okay, just do that.
But she's the one we collaborate with, and she's the
reason really why we're on board here I'm having this podcast.
So we reached out. We sent it to her and
let her listen to it, and then we had to
talk it out with her about whether or not we
should put this out there. We had the option. We
(09:53):
could have said no, and we did say no.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
There was at least I think maybe a twelve hour
stretch where we I did not think we were going
to release it.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
But that was on me.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, well I was nervous, I would you know. Look,
I was nervous about Yes, I knew what our intentions
were and I knew everything was real and raw, but
I was and I continued to be. And I don't
want to make decisions based on being afraid of what
other people will say, what the headlines will say, what
(10:27):
the comments will be. I mean, that is something I
struggle with, and so that was a part of my equation.
I was nervous, but you were even more.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Nervous than I was.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
On would you say after we listened to it the
first time we both came out of this on the fence,
I would say, but I think you were I don't
want to put these words in your mouth. I think
you were more so leaning, like okay, I'm good to go.
This was before we talked to Sugarman the first time. Yeah,
you remember, okay, So I am on the fence solidly
and you're leaning. And then one thirty in the morning
(10:57):
the day we at in the morning, the night we
recorded this, we had sent it to Sugarman and we
wanted to get her response. And me, I'm up all
the time anyway, So no, no, no, was that for one?
So it was four thirty for me and I'm all
everybody knows I don't sleep.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
You've already been up.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I've been up at this point for a while, and
you know, I said, you know, she's out on the
West coast. She's probably way just center her text. She'd
messaged right.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Back and then called.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And we were on the phone. Robot was passed out
in the bed. I woke up.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
When she started.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
On speaker. Yeah, yeah, yeah, She's not really a voice
you can sleep through.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
She has so much positive energy.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
It just it wakes you up in a good mood,
even if it's a tough subject.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
So here we are one third in the morning out
there for her, four thirty for us. Robes is passed out,
just out of it. I'm bouncing off the walls. I
lean over you. I physically lean over you and laying
across your back, put the phone in your face, and
I have it on speaker.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
But yeah, we gotta talk with this podcast. Wake up.
And after the conversation with her, I came out of it.
How you doubled down with hell, no, we are not
airing this. Absolutely. After I talked to her, I said
there is no way and I was sure that we
should not do it. And my reasoning was that listening
(12:20):
to her, sure you and I any are you? I
keep calling with a fight, but that's if that's a fight,
We're doing great because that that wasn't a nasty thing,
and that's how we go back and forth in private
as well. So that was authentic. But her listening to
it and was concerned. She said, well, this part, want
to make sure TJ you don't sound like you're being
(12:42):
a total asshole, and want to make sure this and
so we're plucking out like little things that could be
misconstrued or this might be a problem area, just the
little little things in her saying that the first response
and you all you didn't expect this, so I'll let
you tell it. What was my immediate response when she
stopped talking about her opinion of the podcast.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
And now I know this can never air, but why
because the way it's viewed. I mean, the truth is,
I'll back up, and I hate that. I cry when
I get mad or I'm upset or I'm defensive. But
when you have someone crying, that creates a certain dynamic
(13:28):
where people feel like they have to come to the
rescue of me, versus actually looking at it from a
more balanced perspective, I think tears can appear to be
manipulaid that wasn't my intention, but it could come off
that way, and I just think the concern was that
it wouldn't be something that people could be objective about
(13:51):
listening to.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Okay, you were I was wondering where you were going.
I could tell looking at you you're being very careful
with your words. Just then, because this is the truth
of the matter, I flat out said to both of
you right there on the phone at fourth third in
the morning, East Coast time, that I don't want to
put this out because this is going to I fear
be viewed as a black man beating up on a
white woman. Now, if anybody took their time and listened
(14:21):
to that podcast, obviously I was not yelling, screaming. I
wasn't doing anything. Now we are a couple who's having
a disagreement, so obviously neither one of us are having
our best moments. But my immediate concern was that, and
you and Sugarman both like, wait what.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I was shocked, and this has been There's been a
lot of things that I have learned personally from not
only doing this podcast, but listening to it back and
then hearing your reaction and then seeing the response that
would never have crossed my mind.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Race.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
The fact that you're black and I'm white would never
have crossed my mind.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
And that's kind of to your point.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
You have to think about things that I don't think about,
And honestly, it took me a second to actually get
my head around it. And once you explained it, and
then once we've seen some of the reaction, a light
bulb went off for me in a way. And it's
just a constant learning curve. But and I've said this
the whole time, I don't know what I don't know,
(15:26):
and every day I learn more about what I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
I have known throughout my career in certain situations in
board rooms, in in newsrooms that when you are going
face to face with a colleague or a white woman
and things get heated, I know that there's only so
much base I can put in my voice. I know
there's only so much flailing of my hands I can do.
(15:53):
I know there's only so much movement I can put
in my body. I have made conscious decisions not to
even stand up when I am being confronted or taken
on by a white woman who might be screaming at
the top of her lungs. And disrespectful to me. But
I know as soon as I make any move it
is going to be now seen as a threat. That
(16:13):
thing is there, and I didn't want to put myself
in a position, or or us, because we are in
this together, in a position to where someone could take
that and begin to Nobody in any articles written said
black and white. But there are things we start to
notice in coverage and in comments that absolutely brought to
(16:37):
fruition exactly what my fear was.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
All of the headlines and we didn't I didn't read
any of the articles, and it was actually just this
morning that I braced myself to just go through the
headlines and not actually click on the articles. But every
single headline was what I said, how I felt that
(16:59):
I was crying, and you predicted it. And that's exactly
how it was covered. And that is eye opening to me,
and I hope it's eye opening to a lot of people,
because again, when we were recording this and going through
this authentic moment we were having that we've had before,
and we wanted to, you know, for all the reasons,
put it out there. It never crossed my mind that
(17:23):
there would be any racial element to this. Now when
we're actually just having our own private moments. Do you
I'm curious, do you edit yourself as a black man
knowing that your girlfriend's a white woman?
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Okay, okay, I was actually curious about that.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
And even when we recorded, to your point just then,
even when we recorded this, that wasn't on my mind
about how this is going to be viewed. I need
to be careful how I'm talking. We just really the
MIC's were just there. We just talked, so that wasn't
a thing. But to hear it was more so hearing
our Amy Sugarman's response. To hear what she was saying
is the thing that got me off the fence and
(18:03):
solidly in that camp of well, oh this can we
cannot let this go out. And I even told you
I was talking to too many white people in preparation
of this podcast going out. I started calling back to
Alabama and Arkansas. I was like, yo, to my people,
and you were in the room when I was having
conversations with my folks, and they were going in in
(18:24):
a much different way and concerned about me and concerned
about even doing a follow up, and the concern I
everybody knows. If you listen to this I don't read comments.
I don't read headlines and tabloids, not at all. I
stay away from it. I had to in preparation for
this podcast, at least, I had to read through comments
(18:45):
on the show's page on Instagram. Got it this morning,
bounced up five am, went right to the computer, just
looked at our The very first comment I wasn't looking
for one, but the very first one when I started
reading was from my guy named Sam, who wasn't on
our side. He wasn't like he was being supportive of us.
Preface that, but then he said this, but let's all
(19:09):
agree he's the problem because he's black.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
WHOA.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
All these comments are saying everything but that shake my head.
The first comment IRA was from Sam, and he noticed
that thing before I even got a chance to read Sam.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
White or black. I'm okay, okay, got it.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
That's just a part of it. And people bring their
own experiences and biases yes to a conversation like that.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
It's it.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
This has been, like I said, incredibly eye opening. I
will say, when you got to a place where you
were kind of I don't know, you just said, you
know what, just let's just Eric and I don't I'm
not doing it to say I told you so, But
you basically said I know what's going to happen, and
I was I was like, really, you think that's going
(19:57):
to happen? I mean, I knew we were both gonna
take hits, and they people were gonna say whatever they
were gonna say. We're very used to negative comments and
negative publicity and negative headlines.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
That's nothing new for us right now.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
But you called it and it absolutely played out the
way you thought it would. How do you feel now
about airing it? I know we I think we're both
glad we did it, But what are your feelings now
after reading all the comments and seeing the headlines.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I don't want to do that again, right it's you.
That's an honest answer, and I hate to be that
kind of honest because what I'm saying is I am
now scared to speak my mind because of what the
potential fallout is going to be anyone who took to us.
So many of the comments were just people who listened
to a forty five second teaser, a promo, or they
(20:47):
read a headline. Obviously many people were just jumping on.
I get that, but it makes you hesitate to put
yourself out there and as be and be as And
again we had every opportunity to say no, we listened
to this thing we had so it it does, and
you know this, we talk about it. It just like, Wow,
(21:07):
you've always been strong like I do not. I am
not going to let the fear of somebody saying something
negative about me keep me from but man, after an
experience like this, and I hate to say I told
you so, but you and I talked about this. I said,
watch what's going to happen?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
You literally said that exact thing to me, And sure enough,
we were monitoring throughout the day yesterday and then this
morning before we came here to record this, really did
a full sweep about what the coverage was, what the
comments were, and it was as you said. And you
know what, I know, I could never ask you to
(21:41):
put yourself in that position. And I honestly didn't even
realize you were putting yourself in a position until you
mentioned it. And it's something I think we have to
talk about in order for things to get better. But
you shouldn't have to be the person who puts yourself
out there, So I would never ask that of you.
I do want to say this to anyone who who
(22:01):
did actually listen to it, or maybe people who who
just think they know what was said based on clips
and headlines. But I am not proud of the fact
that I cry easily.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
I cry all the time.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And so I want to say, as your girlfriend, arguing
with you has been the most peaceful, respectful, even though
it's frustrating, because all arguments are I think because you're
not seeing it the way I want you to see it,
and I'm not seeing it the way you want me
to see it. But I have never had more respectful
(22:40):
disagreements with anyone in my life than I have with you.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
You are so it's a pleasure to argue. It is
not a pleasure. I don't like arguing.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I don't like it, but I you. You are very
measured and calm and logical, and I tend to be
more emotional. And i'd like to think that I make
some points. But to what everyone is saying, I actually
(23:13):
am shocked because I'm thinking to myself, were you and
the same Did you hear the same conversation I heard?
Because I heard somebody who actually never raised his voice
and even though he was frustrated, never lost his cool
or his temper, and frankly, I was impressed. I have
been impressed with how you've handled arguments.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
You're welcome, let's argue more, Let's argue you more.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Kidding No, And it's funny because you asked me what
I was surprised by. So all of these things have
all been surprising and hopefully a little bit enlightening where
we can have a conversation and talk and maybe unpack
what happened or how people have reacted. But something else
that surprised me is how surprised people were that I
was insecure. I think some people actually said, you're too
(24:01):
old to be insecure, Like, really, there's an age at
which you stop worrying or thinking that maybe you aren't enough.
I don't know, And look, it's not something that feels.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Good to say.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yes, I have insecurities. Yes I am insecure at times,
And that also was surprising to me. It's not easy
to admit, but I feel like, if we're all being honest,
all of us have different degrees of insecurity. Maybe mine's
just glaring, but in a fight, I think it definitely
came out, and when I listened to it back, I
heard it even more I've never denied it, but I
(24:37):
actually was a little surprised that at how I sounded,
and I learned from that, but I was surprised that
people thought it was outrageous that I was insecure at
the age of fifty.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Well, you're not supposed to. Uh, That's what we all
try to keep from people, all right, our insecurities. I
think you have spent so much time throughout your or
life and career making sure you never appear to have
any weakness, and I think it the only thing that
drives you crazier about being weak is for somebody to
(25:15):
think you're weak. Yeah, and I don't think you're not
a weak person at all. But we are all human beings.
We all have these moments and insecurities. But I do
I think that it drives you crazy. I think people
are shocked given how much I think I've talked to
you about it during our relationship with sometimes like wow,
you're such a little girl, or because I'm surprised because
(25:36):
you always want to exude you always always always have
that thing, So I can see where why someone now
it shouldn't be insulted, like oh, caw dare you have insecurity?
Not that but I think people who know you tangentially
would go, well, she's secure. Yeah, I never saw that.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I have always tried to put on that show, and
obviously I'm not always okay, and so yes in our
conversations that are uncomfortable and difficult, and yeah, I do
so that whole I'm scared thing. I also wanted to
talk a little bit about that because I think some
(26:13):
women related to that, and some people might have misunderstood that,
because the scared thing was I have finally I am
with somebody now who I am deeply invested in in
a way where I feel like there's a real balance,
(26:36):
like we're in this together. And I don't feel in control.
And I'm not saying that you should feel in control,
that that's the sign of a good or a bad relationship,
But all of a sudden, when you decide to go
into a relationship and you're like, yeah, I don't, I
have no control over what's going to happen. And I
think if you think you have control, it's a false
sense of security, perhaps even but that's what I'm just saying.
(26:58):
And so in those moments, if things aren't going well
or things aren't going right, all of a sudden, you
start to worry and you go into worst case scenario mode,
and that's on me. That has nothing to do with you,
and that has.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Only to do with me.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
You see where that comes from. People think, well, if
this person here is not feeling safe and secure in
their relationship, but they feel scared to day, to more
or at any point, then it must be something about
their partner, right, that's not making them feel secure or
making them feel scared. I think that's a natural jump
that people make, well, and I.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Want to clarify that that is, but I do, but
because that isn't something that should be on you, That
should be something that's on me. And that was something
that stood out to me that I look, I'm always
trying to work on myself and I'll probably be doing that,
hopefully I'll be doing that until the day I die.
Because I'm somebody who believes we're here to learn, We're
(27:49):
here to connect and to love and to learn. And
so I'm god, I'm learning so much about myself too much,
Like I'd like another subject, please.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
What did you learn about yourself in this whole exercise?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
I learned that I need to.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Learn how to satisfy whatever need I have within myself
and not look outward to expect someone else to make
me feel okay. That is the healthy way forward, and
so you come into a relationship as a fully functional being.
I'm not saying that I don't have needs from you,
(28:42):
of course I do. But if I base my mood
or my feeling or my day on what I'm not
getting from you that I think I should, that is
a recipe for suffering and a recipe for.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Problems that I'm creating. That I'm creating.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
So I need to do better at satisfying my own
needs and then looking to you for yes, companionship and
camaraderie and support and security and all of that stuff.
But I can't say this is what you're not giving me,
(29:20):
and that's why I'm upset. No, I really do want
to do better at What I like to say is
it's not what you're not getting, it's what you're not giving.
And so I want to focus on what I can do.
And if you really focus on your own power as
a human being to not only soothe yourself, but to
then give in a situation instead of complaining about what
(29:40):
you're not getting, that is the way forward for a peaceful,
joyful life, and so you're that way, you are in control.
It's not about someone else, and so I don't want
to be somebody who points the finger and blame someone.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I have to.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Accept and surrender more. That's what I learned from listening
to it.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Back that fight we had spawned at least one and
maybe two others, because at this point now you're in
a position to where we don't have to fight about
well you said, and well you said, no, no, no, no.
What you really said was, oh I had to do
is roll the tape.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
And let me go back to timecode twenty three four
when you said, well, let me just play it.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yep. But if you go to time code fifteen twenty two,
you were breathing really hard there, and that sent the message, Look.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Hey, would you would you recommend Hell No, I was
just gonna say couples to record their arguments, because if
you're not in a good place already, that sets up
someone perfectly to be an even bigger asshole than they
were during the actual fight.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Because no one wants that person to say, aha, I
told you or I was right. Nobody wants that. We
weren't listening to it back to try to call each
other something. We were listening to it as producers essentially
and listening through it, and I absolutely I found myself
more upset with you by listening back to it than
(31:12):
I was when we were actually in it.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
I didn't like it.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
I didn't like it. We didn't set up, we didn't
set up the mics and records that conversation afterwards, because
that was a tough one.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, I don't think I ever want to record our
fight again, because if I made you mad the first time,
it's like with time and space, you get even re angered.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Or if we were angry, if.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
We didn't have to listen to it again, I think
we would have floated on and been fine. It's true,
but we were reliving in a trauma essentially, and I'm
listening to it back and listening to myself and listening.
But then I'm hearing you again, like wow, she really said,
I think.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
You caught things that you didn't like that I said
that you didn't catch we were having the actual argument,
so then there were more problems to do with.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
That is absolutely true.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
So no, people do not record your fights.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
You know. What they say was that ignorance is bliss. Yeah,
and I'm grateful for my forgetful mind.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
But it was fascinating to listen back to it, and look,
we had to do it at least five times, I bet.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Fascinating and excruciating. Yeah, I think those are the two
things I would put to it. And you know, I'm
I now know I never need to do that again.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
I don't know, do we, right, I don't. That was
and folks don't remember where that came from. It was
just an experiment we had. This was not a plan
or we need a podcast, we need an extra one.
We were fine and something was going on. I just yeah,
let me set up because it wasn't if we were
having a kickdown fight. There's no way I would have
(32:54):
set up Mike's. Then.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
We haven't had one, have we?
Speaker 1 (32:57):
There was one?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Oh yeah, there was one right now, But that's pretty amazing,
I think to say I can only recall one in
a year and a half.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
But that was that one was anger and that I
was fear. Yeah, and that was earlier. Now, that's being scared,
I understood, because I was scared at the time, like,
oh my god, like I was seeing something I wasn't
seeing before and I make a mistake that kind of
fear crept in. But that was a long time ago. Yeah,
that was a while back.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
But that's the only one I got a kick out of.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
You know, more than one person saying that that we
have an unhealthy relationship because we're arguing.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
I just the honeymoon is over. I saw a lot
of that. Do you think our honeymoon is over?
Speaker 1 (33:37):
How long our honeymoon?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
No, Seriously, what's generally considered honeymoon time for a relationship?
You get married on this day, then you got how
long that's considered the mother honeymoon per Is it a year?
Is a two years?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
I think some people I've actually looked it up. I
think people argue that it's between three months and three years,
and it just wow. And I've seen that kind of
spread as to what defines the honeymoon period in any
relations and hip, and I think ours is extra complicated
because we've.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Been friends for so long.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
We've kind of been in a friend zone honeymoon period
for a very long time where we just we didn't
have to deal with much of the ick of each other,
but we just got to enjoy the best of each other,
and so we kind of had a honeymoon friend zone.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
See I see it. I say it a little bit
different in that we we did enjoy the ick of
each other or got to experience the ich, but we
didn't care because I don't she's not my problem.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
That's right. I don't have to go home with him.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
So he did not.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
You can go work that other stuff out on his
own and I'll see him in the morning.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
It work, it work. But it was entertaining as hell
that you were, Oh, that's weird, she does that, see
you in the morning, not my problem, So that was
interesting to me. But yeah, it's it is. That is
if we talk about a honeymoon, If a honeymoon is
when you finally start to see the real person, If
the honey moon is when you start to get annoyed
(35:02):
by the little things that didn't annoy you before that,
if the honeymoon is when that stuff ends, then why
honeymoon is going as strong as hell?
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Oh yeah, this to me, you're like, wow, when all
those little things that you do that right now seem
cute to me, aren't I worry?
Speaker 1 (35:21):
So we're honeymoon and like crazy, No, we are good
at this point, and I don't know what to do
about this podcast being that place, for being that honest.
I we have to make the best call we can.
But I after my first instinct was to say no,
we shouldn't er it, and then after we aired it,
(35:44):
my first instinct is again to go, well, yeah, I
shouldn't do that again. And I, for myself, I hate
being ruled by outside forces.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
And I'm the same way. I don't like, as you
put it, the fear of something negative happening stop me
from doing something that I know has value to it.
But I do think there was value. Do you think
there was some value in that, at least exposure for Also,
you're talking about the audience, and then I mean hopefully
(36:14):
through this conversation, maybe for the audience.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
I think I'm making a mistake in thinking that that
vocal minority is really the majority opinion. And we obviously
we know better than to take every social media comment
as true or bond or whatever. We know better. But
(36:37):
I am hesitant, and I think there are plenty of
people who listened to that previous episode and they didn't call,
and they didn't write in, they didn't say they didn't
do any of that stuff, who listened and applied it
or didn't feel alone, or I think it helped folks
we don't know it helped or made people feel better
(36:59):
that we don't know feel better because we didn't hear
from them. I think that's the overwhelming majority. But again,
when you're hearing so much of it going the other way,
and you know, I said this as well, and on
the way in, don't want to be polarizing. I don't
want folks to take the guy side or the woman's side.
I don't want to split people. But we also, and
it was evident today there's this split between white and black,
(37:19):
and I don't want that either.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
This wasn't about I'm right, he's wrong, I'm right she's wrong.
This wasn't about who was right. It was about sharing
the fact that communication is really hard, that relationships are
tough but they're worth fighting for when you're at this
place where you have so many shared experiences and so
(37:43):
much love, but even the best of relationships, it still
is so tough. I think a lot of time for
men and women to communicate with each other. So it's
not about taking sides at all. And I definitely want
to make sure that was nothing that we were looking
to do. And I found I saw the ugly sides
of myself that I.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Could only have seen or heard listening.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah, that I can see that at times, And this
is not easy to admit that I'm more focused on
my own emotional needs and I'm so focused on my
own emotional needs that are real and I'm not poo
pooing how I feel. How I feel is how I feel.
But I'm clouded by that. I'm blinded by that, so
(38:28):
that I don't see yours, I don't hear yours. And
I heard myself doing that, bringing it back to me
instead of following up with what you just said to me.
And so I learned something about myself that I can
do better the next time we have a conversation like this,
(38:48):
or the next time you open up to me, or
the next time I'm telling you I want you to
let me in. I'm telling you that I want you
to turn to me. But if I don't give you
that safe space or that response acknowledging your needs, then
why would you turn to me? So I did hear that,
and that was an AHA moment for me listening back, I.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Agree to it. So it's not just and this wasn't
a I kind of was just resigned to it. Look
just put out there and see what happens, even though
I might've had a good indication of what might happen.
But it's hey, we are where we are, and we
live in the public, public eye, so we have to
understand that we're supposed to have a little thicker skin.
(39:30):
But it's just it could get really really frustrating when
what you want to come across, or what you actually
feel is not just not understood but actually plucked and
taken and twisted for someone else's gain or entertainment that stuff.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
It does feel good to have this platform, and I
hope that people who are listening really look at the
whole picture and hear you and hear me, and hear
what this is really all about. Do you regret airing it?
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Kenna? I'm not into the regret business.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
No smile, you have a smile on your face.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
I no regret doing anybody. If you gave me another
crack at it, You know what, if you gave me
another crack at it, I probably this is a damn shame.
Would be more careful in the initial conversation and fight
we had so not even getting to the point of
(40:31):
deciding to air it or not. But if I knew
it was going to air, and I knew all of
course all this was coming, I might have and this
is not a good way to be put on for
the sake of the audience. To the right way, and
that was I was on the phone with my boy
Montel down in Alabama this morning, and this was something
(40:56):
he was all over. He's coming from a place of
protecting me, He's coming from a place of looking out
for me. It's just difficult to talk about race.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Always. Everybody knows that I've loved talking about it with
you behind the scenes, and I've been great.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
I've loved those conversations because and you know, after talking
to me about it, it doesn't mean that many of
us are coming from it from a bad place. It's
just from an uninformed place and in a place that
we couldn't know. And so I think that's just for me,
the place to start is to say I don't know
(41:34):
and tell me about it, and I know it's that's
the whole thing, like, let me learn from you. But
it's just about trying to bridge a gap that is
clearly there, and to not acknowledge it is the worst
thing you can do. To say it doesn't exist is
the worst thing you can do, because how could you
possibly say that if you've never had that experience.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
You can always look you, you can always ask me.
You know this behind the scenes. But there are some
things I would I would die in front of the
microphone before I let you say some things because of
how somebody else would take it. Not because you're coming
from a bad place, but because I know you and
love you and know where you're coming from and you're
just trying to learn. If you don't ask the question,
(42:11):
how can you learn? But then the question too often
is then twist it and someone wants to call yeah,
you're a racist or you're ignorant because of at it,
And that's we're scared to speak yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
And I think that's something I've always loved about us,
is that I haven't been scared to speak to you
and you haven't been scared to speak to me. But
we both said no one could ever hear us have
this conversation ever.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
I mean, how many times have we said that?
Speaker 1 (42:37):
A lot? And I hope we don't get away from
what I think is certainly can be and even should
be our lane. I was ultimately proud that we put
(42:59):
that last episode. I like that took a lot. We
were so deliberate in our back and forth, and it
came at a It's some expense to us behind the
scenes in getting it prepared, and there were a lot
more conversations, very difficult ones. But I ultimately was proud
we put it out, and I am they talking about
(43:20):
lessons you took from that. I learned them in the
moment with you, like every time I taught every fight
we've ever had. The only time I am upset about
it or disappointed is if we didn't get something out
of it, if I feel like we're just having the
same fight we had before. I like new fights.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
We kind of have the same fight though.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Yeah, I don't like that.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
It's boring.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
I don't like it. But when it's the same thing
coming up over and over again, No, No, do some
new for me, Do some crazy. I would love for
you too. I want to find about something new.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
All right, all right, I'll give it a whirl.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Then I can learn.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
But I I.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Am and I have to learn to do. I've said it,
but this is another example, I have to do better
about when it's someone as close to me as you are,
about letting folks in when I'm shutting down to when
I'm struggling. That is hard to do. By my sister.
I was on the phone with her. I told you
(44:19):
I was, I had my black tribunal going this morning, like,
I gotta call my black folks today to find out
their reaction to this. I am not your sounding board, obviously.
Can you tell as soon as I got on you
can just hear my tone change.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
Oh, you were laughing, you felt comfortable again, The expression
was gone. I was like, Wow, what am I doing wrong?
He's not like that with me. Damn.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
It's also all of my sister all morning. And she
said it, He said, you take shutting down to a
whole other level. Like she was frustrated by listening to
the podcast the last episode and she had all her comments,
but she came back, dude, you are you shutting down?
You take it to a whole other level. And she
knows me better than anybody. She's seen me do it
(45:06):
in the room across the hall from her. Since you
and I talked about it. Actually, when we were in Arkansas,
she was like, I know, trust me, So I am
trying to do better about that. And I am in
this situation as well. Could have saved us some issues.
I could have saved us some time by being better
(45:31):
in those moments. So that's that's that is a constant
working prodgress. And I said to you privately, I'll say
you well, I said it in the last podcast. I
can't say it enough that I am sorry for that frustration.
I am sorry for my active role in putting us
in those positions. I am, but it was I love
you and I'm going to be with you. Whatever fight
(45:53):
comes next. That's going to be the result of said
fight is that we are still then be going strong.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
And I told you this privately as well. I am sorry,
I said in the last in the actual fight, I
wasn't sure what I did wrong. I said to you,
I don't know what I did wrong, and listening to
it back, I did figure out what I did wrong.
(46:23):
And it's what I said a few moments ago that
I have not been as good about and I haven't
been good at all in times in responding to your
emotional needs to not shifting straight to me or going
straight to a defense about why I did what I did.
(46:43):
So I want to be focused less on the explaining
and the defense and the wise and just more on
board with acknowledging how you're feeling, validating how you're feeling,
and apologizing for contributing.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
To the mess we're in.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
So that's my work, my work. I have a twofold thing.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Well, you have homework.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
I do.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Well, it's just kind of.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Putting it into practice. I intellectually know all of this,
but it is first of all to make sure that
I'm in control of my own needs and that I
take responsibility for how I'm feeling. No one can make
you feel a certain way. You love to say that,
and it's absolutely true. Number two being more of being
(47:26):
a better listener and being a better supporter.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
You know, some therapists could come in and damn it,
I was about to say unpacked, but I was.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
Looking for another we have this thing, we have this word.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Maybe in our former career, it was a very go
to way to describe something. We're going to unpack this
for you coming up next. And it got to the
point where it was silly, like it was in every
script at least like twice during the show we're going
to unpack this for you. So we kind of made
a point to.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
Never say it. But now I've I just actually said it, So.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
Okay, I got so I'm gonna find another word. Thesauris
dot com right, I look, some therapists could help us
with this and figure this out from our past. But
if they were to sit down and figure this out
with me, I am. I am a guy who grew
up around very strong southern black men, and there was
(48:25):
no I didn't hear the word mental health. I didn't
hear that phrase until I was well into my professional career.
There was never a time there was just for black
men generally. And I was raised this way, not taught
by sitting down and teaching a lesson by by examples
(48:46):
that were around me. You do not have time, and
nobody gives a damn about how you feel. Why are
you talking about your feelings? Your feelings don't matter. I
don't count here. You get it done, and I sometimes
am guilty of not even you were saying it here
with TJ. What I need to do. I need to
(49:06):
be more mindful of your feelings. Even I got uncomfortable
like my feelings, my feelings, but that's still something we
all got to get over. And again, like you say, intellectually,
I know better, but it's not something that is that
easy for me. But then when it does become something
that is I'm getting more comfortable with, and then it's
(49:30):
slightly rejected or not received, then I go back into
that shutdown mode. And as you know, I take shutting
down to a whole other level. It's like deaf cone five. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
So I.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Got that work to do, and it starts with just
an awareness of it, and I am aware that I
did I do that. So I'm working on it. Baby.
But even if we get into another fight, as you
heard earlier, I am a pleasure to fighter.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
It just never gets heated. It just it gets frustrating.
But I'll take that any day. And so I guess
we both have our homework assignments and our next fight
will we'll probably just keep to ourselves.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Okay, Actually I'm okay with that. We yeah, and that's
just we were honest and then we didn't know how
this was going to go. But that I just hate
saying that, but it is the truth. I hate being
fearful of being honest. Yeah, that's tough.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
Well, that's why most people aren't. I mean some of
the other podcasts we've had where we've been like brutally honest.
Oh people love throwing those barbes back.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
In our face. But you know what, it's okay, we
get it.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
We get we're public figures and we're we're creating the
content and everyone's allowed to have an opinion. And that's
just the way it is. But I will say this,
I want to thank many of you who did We
pointed out our friend from Dakota, but so many of
you wrote so many thoughtful, beautiful, wonderful, kind, supportive, amazing
(51:07):
things to us, And for all of you who took
the time to do that, I just want to say
thank you, because we did read them all this time,
and it did make a difference to see the support,
and it did feel good to know that at least
some people and hopefully many of you got something, got
some sort of takeaway from it, even if it was
to feel heard or to not feel so alone. So
(51:27):
thank you for those of you who did take the
time to say something kind.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
And if you would please, it does mean a lot.
You don't have to send in a note of support
for the two of us but it does help for
you all out there to take the time to actually
write in about maybe how you deal with conflict in
your own relationship, how you have, what's worked for you,
(51:53):
what hasn't worked for you, what you heard in our
conversation our relationship that is like youppreciate hearing that stuff.
So you can find us the podcast. The Instagram page
is at Amy and t J Podcast. You can find
us both personally on TikTok and on Instagram. Baby, thank
you for the chat. Now let's go listen to this
(52:16):
back and fight about it.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Oh, I think this is going to be a good
one to listen back to. Yeah, I do. I love you.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
I love you, Betty
Hey there, everybody. Welcome to the Amy and TJ podcast
make Up addition, where we make up as a couple
for the fight we got into for the previous episode
of this podcast. I'm kidding. Do we have making up
to do after the last one?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Well? I think here's what happened. We made up and
then we because we were re listening to the podcast
because we were debating whether or not to actually air it.
Having to re listen to it brought up a lot
of other emotions, I think for both of us, and
we had to re examine the fight because maybe it
(00:43):
hadn't been.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Okay, So we haven't made up.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
We're in the process of it.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Wow. Even on that, we're in two different places because
I'm done and I'm over it. You know, I didn't
know we were still working.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
You're over it.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I'm over it because I would really like to be
not how this was supposed to go. Welcome everybody, Yes,
how about this? Did anything the reaction any of the
reaction we got from the last podcast? What surprised you
by the reaction?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Okay, that's a really good question.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
What surprised me the most is that people were surprised
because I think if anyone has been in a relationship
in their life or are currently in a relationship. Don't
y'all fight? Don't you have issues? I think I was
surprised that people said it was too soon for us
to have a fight. We've been together as a couple
officially for almost almost exactly a year and a half.
(01:37):
We're close to it, we're coming up on it. I
feel like we should. If we didn't have a fight,
if we didn't argue, that would be a red flag.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Do you really think there's a general idea consensus for
most level headed folks that are surprised that two people
in a relationship might have a disagreement.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
And by the way, there was no yelling. I was
actually really proud of So I was proud of us.
Would I listen?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
And I don't think we ever yell. No, So I
think we fight.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I mean, fighting is not fun, It's not fun at all,
But I don't. I actually feel pretty good about how
we fought, and I think it was clear that we
were not communicating great and that's what we're working on.
But I guess that was my biggest surprise, that people
really were taken aback.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
That we fought, or that we disagreed.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I would love to see their relationships, wow, and take
some notes because I would love to not fight.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
That'd be amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
But don't they tell you, you know you're in trouble if
you're in a relationship and.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
You don't fight, right, because the opposite of love is indifference,
and in difference means yeah, you do you, I do
me bye or whatever, like living alongside somebody and not
with someone, And so yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I that was the biggest surprise.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Did you have a something that stood out to you
that surprised you that would have to be it?
Speaker 1 (02:58):
That that Yeah, it's the end of us because we
told people that we've had a disagreement. Just that that
part's fascinating. But I think a lot there are a
lot of reasonable, level headed folks, folks who are in
relationships who listen to it, and we got a lot
of those responses and read them. They see themselves in
(03:18):
that disagreement, They see themselves in the lack of communication,
and sometimes people come down on what their own They
bring their own junk into it as they listen. Your
ears are filtering what you're hearing based on your own
experience and sometimes yes, your own bias, but yeah, a
lot of women will say yes TJ da da da,
and a lot of men were going another way. And
(03:39):
then Frank it went along racial lines as well, some
black and white. It was that was fascinating. But yeah,
I was surprised that we're not supposed to fight.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I know, I always I think there were two things
at play that men are is it Men are from
are from Mars, from Venus, matter from Mars. Women are
from Venus, and so that was absolutely and then you
know the black white thing. It's it's interesting that there
are different ways to look at it, and that's part
of I think that's part of the reason why we
wanted to put it out there. And I love what
(04:12):
someone wrote. They talked about what we did in the
podcast and they gave it a name that I had
never heard before.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Well, you told me, oh, oh, the value tainment. I
wish I could give him credit. A guy that passed
it along, and I, okay, if that's something you all
are familiar with, I never heard it before. But he
called it value tainment to where yes, we are listening
to you and we are being we are engaged, and
to some degree you have to be entertaining in all
(04:40):
you do, but there there was some value in it,
and he used that word, and I'll think, Wow, I
guess that's really what we were going for. I don't
think we were talking about entertaining anybody in doing so,
but he found value in what we were doing.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I love that, and I think that's something that it
made me feel better about making the decision to go
ahead and err, because that is what we were hoping
to do, a just to say hey, here we are
and we don't And we said this from the beginning.
We didn't want to put out an Instagram all smiles
type of podcast where hey, look at us, We're doing great,
(05:16):
everything's rosy. We wanted to be real. So we figured,
if we're going to put the good stuff, we should
also put the stuff that's tough and hard and maybe
people can A not feel so alone or B learn
something from it. And we got a lot of really
positive comments from people saying just that, oh my gosh,
this made me feel validated. Oh my goodness, I feel heard. Wow,
(05:38):
I have the same fight with my husband or my wife, And.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
That felt cool. That's what I was hoping for at
the very least.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Okay, Well, we talked about I wasn't thinking that at
the time when we first set up the microphones, and
again that disagreement, that back and forth happened. I guess
we're talking to you now several days removed from it,
but initially I didn't think about we went back and
forth about the why. But we're have Tammy in South
Dakota right now. Give you the why because Robot and
(06:08):
we're going to talk a little more about why and
what went into how the last episode actually got on
the air. But we are going to read a statement
not prepared by us, not prepared for us, but a
statement word for word for somebody named Tammy from South Dakota.
And I think Robe she sums up better than you
and I ever could, and she got it. She got
(06:30):
it exactly like we wanted people to get it.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So go ahead, all right, this is from Tammy. Yes,
we love this, she said.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
She writes.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Relationships are hard enough, let alone having to do it
under the public eye. And then some remember that these
two are human beings, just like all of us. They
are choosing love, and love is not easy. It's something
you have to work at every day. They could choose
to be fake and lie to us all and not
share their genuine feelings, making the public feel more alone
(06:58):
than ever. But no, they are choosing to be vulnerable
and talking through that They don't have everything figured out.
They are sharing their triumphs and struggles, joy, laughter, pain,
my gosh, they have shared some deep stuff and feelings.
All these things they are sharing should make you all
feel not alone. Just stop being judgmental and let them
(07:19):
work through things and maybe help a whole lot of
others be honest with each other and themselves. They are
both human. Thank you, Roboc and TJ for sharing your
lives and helping others figure things out along the way.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Tam Me from South Dakota, thank you for that message
and thank you for putting it in the best of ways.
I was surprised, also rose by some people were so
it took time to be so thoughtful in the responses
that they did given. I absolutely appreciated that, But I
thought she put it in a way that we never could.
And I appreciated it, but that wasn't I didn't think
(07:53):
about it when we put it out or decided to
the like helping someone. I didn't think about it as
a man of anyone else looking at it in feeling
heard or seen or not alone.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
But that was a lot of that there was, And
I don't know that that's what our intention was necessarily.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I think we just had set out.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
When we started to do this that we weren't going
to fake our way through anything or put on a
strong face if we didn't feel it. And we also
knew that there might be times working together like this
in a relationship that we wouldn't be great, that we
wouldn't be in a good space, and how are we
going to deal with that? And I think we decided
(08:33):
in that moment that we were going to deal with
it by being real about it, and.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I was me.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I was definitely I think hopeful that by putting it
out people would relate. I don't know that we were
setting out to help anyone, but just maybe even feel
connected to people saying, hey, we're all in this together.
These relationship things ain't easy, and nobody is immune from
those types of difficulties. And I think, especially early on
in a relationship, regardless of how long we had known
(09:01):
each other and how long we had been friends, and
how long we had leaned on each other about other relationships,
it's still different when it's the two of you, and
it's just you and you have to figure it out.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
In all honesty, I didn't want to put it out
to let folks know. We recorded this several again several
days ago, but then you and I listened to it,
and we didn't let anybody else know. We listened to
it first, and then we let our iHeart team, in
particular Amy sugarm and you over hear her name a lot,
so just let you know who she is. When you
(09:33):
think iHeart, just think Amy Sugar. Okay, just do that.
But she's the one we collaborate with, and she's the
reason really why we're on board here I'm having this podcast.
So we reached out. We sent it to her and
let her listen to it, and then we had to
talk it out with her about whether or not we
should put this out there. We had the option. We
(09:53):
could have said no, and we did say no.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
There was at least I think maybe a twelve hour
stretch where we I did not think we were going
to release it.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
But that was on me.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, well I was nervous, I would you know. Look,
I was nervous about Yes, I knew what our intentions
were and I knew everything was real and raw, but
I was and I continued to be. And I don't
want to make decisions based on being afraid of what
other people will say, what the headlines will say, what
(10:27):
the comments will be. I mean, that is something I
struggle with, and so that was a part of my equation.
I was nervous, but you were even more.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Nervous than I was.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
On would you say after we listened to it the
first time we both came out of this on the fence,
I would say, but I think you were I don't
want to put these words in your mouth. I think
you were more so leaning, like okay, I'm good to go.
This was before we talked to Sugarman the first time. Yeah,
you remember, okay, So I am on the fence solidly
and you're leaning. And then one thirty in the morning
(10:57):
the day we at in the morning, the night we
recorded this, we had sent it to Sugarman and we
wanted to get her response. And me, I'm up all
the time anyway, So no, no, no, was that for one?
So it was four thirty for me and I'm all
everybody knows I don't sleep.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
You've already been up.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I've been up at this point for a while, and
you know, I said, you know, she's out on the
West coast. She's probably way just center her text. She'd
messaged right.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Back and then called.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And we were on the phone. Robot was passed out
in the bed. I woke up.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
When she started.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
On speaker. Yeah, yeah, yeah, She's not really a voice
you can sleep through.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
She has so much positive energy.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
It just it wakes you up in a good mood,
even if it's a tough subject.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
So here we are one third in the morning out
there for her, four thirty for us. Robes is passed out,
just out of it. I'm bouncing off the walls. I
lean over you. I physically lean over you and laying
across your back, put the phone in your face, and
I have it on speaker.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
But yeah, we gotta talk with this podcast. Wake up.
And after the conversation with her, I came out of it.
How you doubled down with hell, no, we are not
airing this. Absolutely. After I talked to her, I said
there is no way and I was sure that we
should not do it. And my reasoning was that listening
(12:20):
to her, sure you and I any are you? I
keep calling with a fight, but that's if that's a fight,
We're doing great because that that wasn't a nasty thing,
and that's how we go back and forth in private
as well. So that was authentic. But her listening to
it and was concerned. She said, well, this part, want
to make sure TJ you don't sound like you're being
(12:42):
a total asshole, and want to make sure this and
so we're plucking out like little things that could be
misconstrued or this might be a problem area, just the
little little things in her saying that the first response
and you all you didn't expect this, so I'll let
you tell it. What was my immediate response when she
stopped talking about her opinion of the podcast.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
And now I know this can never air, but why
because the way it's viewed. I mean, the truth is,
I'll back up, and I hate that. I cry when
I get mad or I'm upset or I'm defensive. But
when you have someone crying, that creates a certain dynamic
(13:28):
where people feel like they have to come to the
rescue of me, versus actually looking at it from a
more balanced perspective, I think tears can appear to be
manipulaid that wasn't my intention, but it could come off
that way, and I just think the concern was that
it wouldn't be something that people could be objective about
(13:51):
listening to.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Okay, you were I was wondering where you were going.
I could tell looking at you you're being very careful
with your words. Just then, because this is the truth
of the matter, I flat out said to both of
you right there on the phone at fourth third in
the morning, East Coast time, that I don't want to
put this out because this is going to I fear
be viewed as a black man beating up on a
white woman. Now, if anybody took their time and listened
(14:21):
to that podcast, obviously I was not yelling, screaming. I
wasn't doing anything. Now we are a couple who's having
a disagreement, so obviously neither one of us are having
our best moments. But my immediate concern was that, and
you and Sugarman both like, wait what.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I was shocked, and this has been There's been a
lot of things that I have learned personally from not
only doing this podcast, but listening to it back and
then hearing your reaction and then seeing the response that
would never have crossed my mind.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Race.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
The fact that you're black and I'm white would never
have crossed my mind.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
And that's kind of to your point.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
You have to think about things that I don't think about,
And honestly, it took me a second to actually get
my head around it. And once you explained it, and
then once we've seen some of the reaction, a light
bulb went off for me in a way. And it's
just a constant learning curve. But and I've said this
the whole time, I don't know what I don't know,
(15:26):
and every day I learn more about what I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
I have known throughout my career in certain situations in
board rooms, in in newsrooms that when you are going
face to face with a colleague or a white woman
and things get heated, I know that there's only so
much base I can put in my voice. I know
there's only so much flailing of my hands I can do.
(15:53):
I know there's only so much movement I can put
in my body. I have made conscious decisions not to
even stand up when I am being confronted or taken
on by a white woman who might be screaming at
the top of her lungs. And disrespectful to me. But
I know as soon as I make any move it
is going to be now seen as a threat. That
(16:13):
thing is there, and I didn't want to put myself
in a position, or or us, because we are in
this together, in a position to where someone could take
that and begin to Nobody in any articles written said
black and white. But there are things we start to
notice in coverage and in comments that absolutely brought to
(16:37):
fruition exactly what my fear was.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
All of the headlines and we didn't I didn't read
any of the articles, and it was actually just this
morning that I braced myself to just go through the
headlines and not actually click on the articles. But every
single headline was what I said, how I felt that
(16:59):
I was crying, and you predicted it. And that's exactly
how it was covered. And that is eye opening to me,
and I hope it's eye opening to a lot of people,
because again, when we were recording this and going through
this authentic moment we were having that we've had before,
and we wanted to, you know, for all the reasons,
put it out there. It never crossed my mind that
(17:23):
there would be any racial element to this. Now when
we're actually just having our own private moments. Do you
I'm curious, do you edit yourself as a black man
knowing that your girlfriend's a white woman?
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Okay, okay, I was actually curious about that.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
And even when we recorded, to your point just then,
even when we recorded this, that wasn't on my mind
about how this is going to be viewed. I need
to be careful how I'm talking. We just really the
MIC's were just there. We just talked, so that wasn't
a thing. But to hear it was more so hearing
our Amy Sugarman's response. To hear what she was saying
is the thing that got me off the fence and
(18:03):
solidly in that camp of well, oh this can we
cannot let this go out. And I even told you
I was talking to too many white people in preparation
of this podcast going out. I started calling back to
Alabama and Arkansas. I was like, yo, to my people,
and you were in the room when I was having
conversations with my folks, and they were going in in
(18:24):
a much different way and concerned about me and concerned
about even doing a follow up, and the concern I
everybody knows. If you listen to this I don't read comments.
I don't read headlines and tabloids, not at all. I
stay away from it. I had to in preparation for
this podcast, at least, I had to read through comments
(18:45):
on the show's page on Instagram. Got it this morning,
bounced up five am, went right to the computer, just
looked at our The very first comment I wasn't looking
for one, but the very first one when I started
reading was from my guy named Sam, who wasn't on
our side. He wasn't like he was being supportive of us.
Preface that, but then he said this, but let's all
(19:09):
agree he's the problem because he's black.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
WHOA.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
All these comments are saying everything but that shake my head.
The first comment IRA was from Sam, and he noticed
that thing before I even got a chance to read Sam.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
White or black. I'm okay, okay, got it.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
That's just a part of it. And people bring their
own experiences and biases yes to a conversation like that.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
It's it.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
This has been, like I said, incredibly eye opening. I
will say, when you got to a place where you
were kind of I don't know, you just said, you
know what, just let's just Eric and I don't I'm
not doing it to say I told you so, But
you basically said I know what's going to happen, and
I was I was like, really, you think that's going
(19:57):
to happen? I mean, I knew we were both gonna
take hits, and they people were gonna say whatever they
were gonna say. We're very used to negative comments and
negative publicity and negative headlines.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
That's nothing new for us right now.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
But you called it and it absolutely played out the
way you thought it would. How do you feel now
about airing it? I know we I think we're both
glad we did it, But what are your feelings now
after reading all the comments and seeing the headlines.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I don't want to do that again, right it's you.
That's an honest answer, and I hate to be that
kind of honest because what I'm saying is I am
now scared to speak my mind because of what the
potential fallout is going to be anyone who took to us.
So many of the comments were just people who listened
to a forty five second teaser, a promo, or they
(20:47):
read a headline. Obviously many people were just jumping on.
I get that, but it makes you hesitate to put
yourself out there and as be and be as And
again we had every opportunity to say no, we listened
to this thing we had so it it does, and
you know this, we talk about it. It just like, Wow,
(21:07):
you've always been strong like I do not. I am
not going to let the fear of somebody saying something
negative about me keep me from but man, after an
experience like this, and I hate to say I told
you so, but you and I talked about this. I said,
watch what's going to happen?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
You literally said that exact thing to me, And sure enough,
we were monitoring throughout the day yesterday and then this
morning before we came here to record this, really did
a full sweep about what the coverage was, what the
comments were, and it was as you said. And you
know what, I know, I could never ask you to
(21:41):
put yourself in that position. And I honestly didn't even
realize you were putting yourself in a position until you
mentioned it. And it's something I think we have to
talk about in order for things to get better. But
you shouldn't have to be the person who puts yourself
out there, So I would never ask that of you.
I do want to say this to anyone who who
(22:01):
did actually listen to it, or maybe people who who
just think they know what was said based on clips
and headlines. But I am not proud of the fact
that I cry easily.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
I cry all the time.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And so I want to say, as your girlfriend, arguing
with you has been the most peaceful, respectful, even though
it's frustrating, because all arguments are I think because you're
not seeing it the way I want you to see it,
and I'm not seeing it the way you want me
to see it. But I have never had more respectful
(22:40):
disagreements with anyone in my life than I have with you.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
You are so it's a pleasure to argue. It is
not a pleasure. I don't like arguing.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I don't like it, but I you. You are very
measured and calm and logical, and I tend to be
more emotional. And i'd like to think that I make
some points. But to what everyone is saying, I actually
(23:13):
am shocked because I'm thinking to myself, were you and
the same Did you hear the same conversation I heard?
Because I heard somebody who actually never raised his voice
and even though he was frustrated, never lost his cool
or his temper, and frankly, I was impressed. I have
been impressed with how you've handled arguments.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
You're welcome, let's argue more, Let's argue you more.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Kidding No, And it's funny because you asked me what
I was surprised by. So all of these things have
all been surprising and hopefully a little bit enlightening where
we can have a conversation and talk and maybe unpack
what happened or how people have reacted. But something else
that surprised me is how surprised people were that I
was insecure. I think some people actually said, you're too
(24:01):
old to be insecure, Like, really, there's an age at
which you stop worrying or thinking that maybe you aren't enough.
I don't know, And look, it's not something that feels.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Good to say.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yes, I have insecurities. Yes I am insecure at times,
And that also was surprising to me. It's not easy
to admit, but I feel like, if we're all being honest,
all of us have different degrees of insecurity. Maybe mine's
just glaring, but in a fight, I think it definitely
came out, and when I listened to it back, I
heard it even more I've never denied it, but I
(24:37):
actually was a little surprised that at how I sounded,
and I learned from that, but I was surprised that
people thought it was outrageous that I was insecure at
the age of fifty.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Well, you're not supposed to. Uh, That's what we all
try to keep from people, all right, our insecurities. I
think you have spent so much time throughout your or
life and career making sure you never appear to have
any weakness, and I think it the only thing that
drives you crazier about being weak is for somebody to
(25:15):
think you're weak. Yeah, and I don't think you're not
a weak person at all. But we are all human beings.
We all have these moments and insecurities. But I do
I think that it drives you crazy. I think people
are shocked given how much I think I've talked to
you about it during our relationship with sometimes like wow,
you're such a little girl, or because I'm surprised because
(25:36):
you always want to exude you always always always have
that thing, So I can see where why someone now
it shouldn't be insulted, like oh, caw dare you have insecurity?
Not that but I think people who know you tangentially
would go, well, she's secure. Yeah, I never saw that.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I have always tried to put on that show, and
obviously I'm not always okay, and so yes in our
conversations that are uncomfortable and difficult, and yeah, I do
so that whole I'm scared thing. I also wanted to
talk a little bit about that because I think some
(26:13):
women related to that, and some people might have misunderstood that,
because the scared thing was I have finally I am
with somebody now who I am deeply invested in in
a way where I feel like there's a real balance,
(26:36):
like we're in this together. And I don't feel in control.
And I'm not saying that you should feel in control,
that that's the sign of a good or a bad relationship,
But all of a sudden, when you decide to go
into a relationship and you're like, yeah, I don't, I
have no control over what's going to happen. And I
think if you think you have control, it's a false
sense of security, perhaps even but that's what I'm just saying.
(26:58):
And so in those moments, if things aren't going well
or things aren't going right, all of a sudden, you
start to worry and you go into worst case scenario mode,
and that's on me. That has nothing to do with you,
and that has.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Only to do with me.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
You see where that comes from. People think, well, if
this person here is not feeling safe and secure in
their relationship, but they feel scared to day, to more
or at any point, then it must be something about
their partner, right, that's not making them feel secure or
making them feel scared. I think that's a natural jump
that people make, well, and I.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Want to clarify that that is, but I do, but
because that isn't something that should be on you, That
should be something that's on me. And that was something
that stood out to me that I look, I'm always
trying to work on myself and I'll probably be doing that,
hopefully I'll be doing that until the day I die.
Because I'm somebody who believes we're here to learn, We're
(27:49):
here to connect and to love and to learn. And
so I'm god, I'm learning so much about myself too much,
Like I'd like another subject, please.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
What did you learn about yourself in this whole exercise?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
I learned that I need to.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Learn how to satisfy whatever need I have within myself
and not look outward to expect someone else to make
me feel okay. That is the healthy way forward, and
so you come into a relationship as a fully functional being.
I'm not saying that I don't have needs from you,
(28:42):
of course I do. But if I base my mood
or my feeling or my day on what I'm not
getting from you that I think I should, that is
a recipe for suffering and a recipe for.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Problems that I'm creating. That I'm creating.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
So I need to do better at satisfying my own
needs and then looking to you for yes, companionship and
camaraderie and support and security and all of that stuff.
But I can't say this is what you're not giving me,
(29:20):
and that's why I'm upset. No, I really do want
to do better at What I like to say is
it's not what you're not getting, it's what you're not giving.
And so I want to focus on what I can do.
And if you really focus on your own power as
a human being to not only soothe yourself, but to
then give in a situation instead of complaining about what
(29:40):
you're not getting, that is the way forward for a peaceful,
joyful life, and so you're that way, you are in control.
It's not about someone else, and so I don't want
to be somebody who points the finger and blame someone.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I have to.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Accept and surrender more. That's what I learned from listening
to it.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Back that fight we had spawned at least one and
maybe two others, because at this point now you're in
a position to where we don't have to fight about
well you said, and well you said, no, no, no, no.
What you really said was, oh I had to do
is roll the tape.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
And let me go back to timecode twenty three four
when you said, well, let me just play it.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yep. But if you go to time code fifteen twenty two,
you were breathing really hard there, and that sent the message, Look.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Hey, would you would you recommend Hell No, I was
just gonna say couples to record their arguments, because if
you're not in a good place already, that sets up
someone perfectly to be an even bigger asshole than they
were during the actual fight.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Because no one wants that person to say, aha, I
told you or I was right. Nobody wants that. We
weren't listening to it back to try to call each
other something. We were listening to it as producers essentially
and listening through it, and I absolutely I found myself
more upset with you by listening back to it than
(31:12):
I was when we were actually in it.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
I didn't like it.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
I didn't like it. We didn't set up, we didn't
set up the mics and records that conversation afterwards, because
that was a tough one.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, I don't think I ever want to record our
fight again, because if I made you mad the first time,
it's like with time and space, you get even re angered.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Or if we were angry, if.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
We didn't have to listen to it again, I think
we would have floated on and been fine. It's true,
but we were reliving in a trauma essentially, and I'm
listening to it back and listening to myself and listening.
But then I'm hearing you again, like wow, she really said,
I think.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
You caught things that you didn't like that I said
that you didn't catch we were having the actual argument,
so then there were more problems to do with.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
That is absolutely true.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
So no, people do not record your fights.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
You know. What they say was that ignorance is bliss. Yeah,
and I'm grateful for my forgetful mind.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
But it was fascinating to listen back to it, and look,
we had to do it at least five times, I bet.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Fascinating and excruciating. Yeah, I think those are the two
things I would put to it. And you know, I'm
I now know I never need to do that again.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
I don't know, do we, right, I don't. That was
and folks don't remember where that came from. It was
just an experiment we had. This was not a plan
or we need a podcast, we need an extra one.
We were fine and something was going on. I just yeah,
let me set up because it wasn't if we were
having a kickdown fight. There's no way I would have
(32:54):
set up Mike's. Then.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
We haven't had one, have we?
Speaker 1 (32:57):
There was one?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Oh yeah, there was one right now, But that's pretty amazing,
I think to say I can only recall one in
a year and a half.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
But that was that one was anger and that I
was fear. Yeah, and that was earlier. Now, that's being scared,
I understood, because I was scared at the time, like,
oh my god, like I was seeing something I wasn't
seeing before and I make a mistake that kind of
fear crept in. But that was a long time ago. Yeah,
that was a while back.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
But that's the only one I got a kick out of.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
You know, more than one person saying that that we
have an unhealthy relationship because we're arguing.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
I just the honeymoon is over. I saw a lot
of that. Do you think our honeymoon is over?
Speaker 1 (33:37):
How long our honeymoon?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
No, Seriously, what's generally considered honeymoon time for a relationship?
You get married on this day, then you got how
long that's considered the mother honeymoon per Is it a year?
Is a two years?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
I think some people I've actually looked it up. I
think people argue that it's between three months and three years,
and it just wow. And I've seen that kind of
spread as to what defines the honeymoon period in any
relations and hip, and I think ours is extra complicated
because we've.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Been friends for so long.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
We've kind of been in a friend zone honeymoon period
for a very long time where we just we didn't
have to deal with much of the ick of each other,
but we just got to enjoy the best of each other,
and so we kind of had a honeymoon friend zone.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
See I see it. I say it a little bit
different in that we we did enjoy the ick of
each other or got to experience the ich, but we
didn't care because I don't she's not my problem.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
That's right. I don't have to go home with him.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
So he did not.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
You can go work that other stuff out on his
own and I'll see him in the morning.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
It work, it work. But it was entertaining as hell
that you were, Oh, that's weird, she does that, see
you in the morning, not my problem, So that was
interesting to me. But yeah, it's it is. That is
if we talk about a honeymoon, If a honeymoon is
when you finally start to see the real person, If
the honey moon is when you start to get annoyed
(35:02):
by the little things that didn't annoy you before that,
if the honeymoon is when that stuff ends, then why
honeymoon is going as strong as hell?
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Oh yeah, this to me, you're like, wow, when all
those little things that you do that right now seem
cute to me, aren't I worry?
Speaker 1 (35:21):
So we're honeymoon and like crazy, No, we are good
at this point, and I don't know what to do
about this podcast being that place, for being that honest.
I we have to make the best call we can.
But I after my first instinct was to say no,
we shouldn't er it, and then after we aired it,
(35:44):
my first instinct is again to go, well, yeah, I
shouldn't do that again. And I, for myself, I hate
being ruled by outside forces.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
And I'm the same way. I don't like, as you
put it, the fear of something negative happening stop me
from doing something that I know has value to it.
But I do think there was value. Do you think
there was some value in that, at least exposure for Also,
you're talking about the audience, and then I mean hopefully
(36:14):
through this conversation, maybe for the audience.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
I think I'm making a mistake in thinking that that
vocal minority is really the majority opinion. And we obviously
we know better than to take every social media comment
as true or bond or whatever. We know better. But
(36:37):
I am hesitant, and I think there are plenty of
people who listened to that previous episode and they didn't call,
and they didn't write in, they didn't say they didn't
do any of that stuff, who listened and applied it
or didn't feel alone, or I think it helped folks
we don't know it helped or made people feel better
(36:59):
that we don't know feel better because we didn't hear
from them. I think that's the overwhelming majority. But again,
when you're hearing so much of it going the other way,
and you know, I said this as well, and on
the way in, don't want to be polarizing. I don't
want folks to take the guy side or the woman's side.
I don't want to split people. But we also, and
it was evident today there's this split between white and black,
(37:19):
and I don't want that either.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
This wasn't about I'm right, he's wrong, I'm right she's wrong.
This wasn't about who was right. It was about sharing
the fact that communication is really hard, that relationships are
tough but they're worth fighting for when you're at this
place where you have so many shared experiences and so
(37:43):
much love, but even the best of relationships, it still
is so tough. I think a lot of time for
men and women to communicate with each other. So it's
not about taking sides at all. And I definitely want
to make sure that was nothing that we were looking
to do. And I found I saw the ugly sides
of myself that I.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Could only have seen or heard listening.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah, that I can see that at times, And this
is not easy to admit that I'm more focused on
my own emotional needs and I'm so focused on my
own emotional needs that are real and I'm not poo
pooing how I feel. How I feel is how I feel.
But I'm clouded by that. I'm blinded by that, so
(38:28):
that I don't see yours, I don't hear yours. And
I heard myself doing that, bringing it back to me
instead of following up with what you just said to me.
And so I learned something about myself that I can
do better the next time we have a conversation like this,
(38:48):
or the next time you open up to me, or
the next time I'm telling you I want you to
let me in. I'm telling you that I want you
to turn to me. But if I don't give you
that safe space or that response acknowledging your needs, then
why would you turn to me? So I did hear that,
and that was an AHA moment for me listening back, I.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Agree to it. So it's not just and this wasn't
a I kind of was just resigned to it. Look
just put out there and see what happens, even though
I might've had a good indication of what might happen.
But it's hey, we are where we are, and we
live in the public, public eye, so we have to
understand that we're supposed to have a little thicker skin.
(39:30):
But it's just it could get really really frustrating when
what you want to come across, or what you actually
feel is not just not understood but actually plucked and
taken and twisted for someone else's gain or entertainment that stuff.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
It does feel good to have this platform, and I
hope that people who are listening really look at the
whole picture and hear you and hear me, and hear
what this is really all about. Do you regret airing it?
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Kenna? I'm not into the regret business.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
No smile, you have a smile on your face.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
I no regret doing anybody. If you gave me another
crack at it, You know what, if you gave me
another crack at it, I probably this is a damn shame.
Would be more careful in the initial conversation and fight
we had so not even getting to the point of
(40:31):
deciding to air it or not. But if I knew
it was going to air, and I knew all of
course all this was coming, I might have and this
is not a good way to be put on for
the sake of the audience. To the right way, and
that was I was on the phone with my boy
Montel down in Alabama this morning, and this was something
(40:56):
he was all over. He's coming from a place of
protecting me, He's coming from a place of looking out
for me. It's just difficult to talk about race.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Always. Everybody knows that I've loved talking about it with
you behind the scenes, and I've been great.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
I've loved those conversations because and you know, after talking
to me about it, it doesn't mean that many of
us are coming from it from a bad place. It's
just from an uninformed place and in a place that
we couldn't know. And so I think that's just for me,
the place to start is to say I don't know
(41:34):
and tell me about it, and I know it's that's
the whole thing, like, let me learn from you. But
it's just about trying to bridge a gap that is
clearly there, and to not acknowledge it is the worst
thing you can do. To say it doesn't exist is
the worst thing you can do, because how could you
possibly say that if you've never had that experience.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
You can always look you, you can always ask me.
You know this behind the scenes. But there are some
things I would I would die in front of the
microphone before I let you say some things because of
how somebody else would take it. Not because you're coming
from a bad place, but because I know you and
love you and know where you're coming from and you're
just trying to learn. If you don't ask the question,
(42:11):
how can you learn? But then the question too often
is then twist it and someone wants to call yeah,
you're a racist or you're ignorant because of at it,
And that's we're scared to speak yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
And I think that's something I've always loved about us,
is that I haven't been scared to speak to you
and you haven't been scared to speak to me. But
we both said no one could ever hear us have
this conversation ever.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
I mean, how many times have we said that?
Speaker 1 (42:37):
A lot? And I hope we don't get away from
what I think is certainly can be and even should
be our lane. I was ultimately proud that we put
(42:59):
that last episode. I like that took a lot. We
were so deliberate in our back and forth, and it
came at a It's some expense to us behind the
scenes in getting it prepared, and there were a lot
more conversations, very difficult ones. But I ultimately was proud
we put it out, and I am they talking about
(43:20):
lessons you took from that. I learned them in the
moment with you, like every time I taught every fight
we've ever had. The only time I am upset about
it or disappointed is if we didn't get something out
of it, if I feel like we're just having the
same fight we had before. I like new fights.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
We kind of have the same fight though.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Yeah, I don't like that.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
It's boring.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
I don't like it. But when it's the same thing
coming up over and over again, No, No, do some
new for me, Do some crazy. I would love for
you too. I want to find about something new.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
All right, all right, I'll give it a whirl.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Then I can learn.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
But I I.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Am and I have to learn to do. I've said it,
but this is another example, I have to do better
about when it's someone as close to me as you are,
about letting folks in when I'm shutting down to when
I'm struggling. That is hard to do. By my sister.
I was on the phone with her. I told you
(44:19):
I was, I had my black tribunal going this morning, like,
I gotta call my black folks today to find out
their reaction to this. I am not your sounding board, obviously.
Can you tell as soon as I got on you
can just hear my tone change.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
Oh, you were laughing, you felt comfortable again, The expression
was gone. I was like, Wow, what am I doing wrong?
He's not like that with me. Damn.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
It's also all of my sister all morning. And she
said it, He said, you take shutting down to a
whole other level. Like she was frustrated by listening to
the podcast the last episode and she had all her comments,
but she came back, dude, you are you shutting down?
You take it to a whole other level. And she
knows me better than anybody. She's seen me do it
(45:06):
in the room across the hall from her. Since you
and I talked about it. Actually, when we were in Arkansas,
she was like, I know, trust me, So I am
trying to do better about that. And I am in
this situation as well. Could have saved us some issues.
I could have saved us some time by being better
(45:31):
in those moments. So that's that's that is a constant
working prodgress. And I said to you privately, I'll say
you well, I said it in the last podcast. I
can't say it enough that I am sorry for that frustration.
I am sorry for my active role in putting us
in those positions. I am, but it was I love
you and I'm going to be with you. Whatever fight
(45:53):
comes next. That's going to be the result of said
fight is that we are still then be going strong.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
And I told you this privately as well. I am sorry,
I said in the last in the actual fight, I
wasn't sure what I did wrong. I said to you,
I don't know what I did wrong, and listening to
it back, I did figure out what I did wrong.
(46:23):
And it's what I said a few moments ago that
I have not been as good about and I haven't
been good at all in times in responding to your
emotional needs to not shifting straight to me or going
straight to a defense about why I did what I did.
(46:43):
So I want to be focused less on the explaining
and the defense and the wise and just more on
board with acknowledging how you're feeling, validating how you're feeling,
and apologizing for contributing.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
To the mess we're in.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
So that's my work, my work. I have a twofold thing.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Well, you have homework.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
I do.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Well, it's just kind of.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Putting it into practice. I intellectually know all of this,
but it is first of all to make sure that
I'm in control of my own needs and that I
take responsibility for how I'm feeling. No one can make
you feel a certain way. You love to say that,
and it's absolutely true. Number two being more of being
(47:26):
a better listener and being a better supporter.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
You know, some therapists could come in and damn it,
I was about to say unpacked, but I was.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
Looking for another we have this thing, we have this word.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Maybe in our former career, it was a very go
to way to describe something. We're going to unpack this
for you coming up next. And it got to the
point where it was silly, like it was in every
script at least like twice during the show we're going
to unpack this for you. So we kind of made
a point to.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
Never say it. But now I've I just actually said it, So.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
Okay, I got so I'm gonna find another word. Thesauris
dot com right, I look, some therapists could help us
with this and figure this out from our past. But
if they were to sit down and figure this out
with me, I am. I am a guy who grew
up around very strong southern black men, and there was
(48:25):
no I didn't hear the word mental health. I didn't
hear that phrase until I was well into my professional career.
There was never a time there was just for black
men generally. And I was raised this way, not taught
by sitting down and teaching a lesson by by examples
(48:46):
that were around me. You do not have time, and
nobody gives a damn about how you feel. Why are
you talking about your feelings? Your feelings don't matter. I
don't count here. You get it done, and I sometimes
am guilty of not even you were saying it here
with TJ. What I need to do. I need to
(49:06):
be more mindful of your feelings. Even I got uncomfortable
like my feelings, my feelings, but that's still something we
all got to get over. And again, like you say, intellectually,
I know better, but it's not something that is that
easy for me. But then when it does become something
that is I'm getting more comfortable with, and then it's
(49:30):
slightly rejected or not received, then I go back into
that shutdown mode. And as you know, I take shutting
down to a whole other level. It's like deaf cone five. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
So I.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Got that work to do, and it starts with just
an awareness of it, and I am aware that I
did I do that. So I'm working on it. Baby.
But even if we get into another fight, as you
heard earlier, I am a pleasure to fighter.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
It just never gets heated. It just it gets frustrating.
But I'll take that any day. And so I guess
we both have our homework assignments and our next fight
will we'll probably just keep to ourselves.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Okay, Actually I'm okay with that. We yeah, and that's
just we were honest and then we didn't know how
this was going to go. But that I just hate
saying that, but it is the truth. I hate being
fearful of being honest. Yeah, that's tough.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
Well, that's why most people aren't. I mean some of
the other podcasts we've had where we've been like brutally honest.
Oh people love throwing those barbes back.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
In our face. But you know what, it's okay, we
get it.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
We get we're public figures and we're we're creating the
content and everyone's allowed to have an opinion. And that's
just the way it is. But I will say this,
I want to thank many of you who did We
pointed out our friend from Dakota, but so many of
you wrote so many thoughtful, beautiful, wonderful, kind, supportive, amazing
(51:07):
things to us, And for all of you who took
the time to do that, I just want to say
thank you, because we did read them all this time,
and it did make a difference to see the support,
and it did feel good to know that at least
some people and hopefully many of you got something, got
some sort of takeaway from it, even if it was
to feel heard or to not feel so alone. So
(51:27):
thank you for those of you who did take the
time to say something kind.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
And if you would please, it does mean a lot.
You don't have to send in a note of support
for the two of us but it does help for
you all out there to take the time to actually
write in about maybe how you deal with conflict in
your own relationship, how you have, what's worked for you,
(51:53):
what hasn't worked for you, what you heard in our
conversation our relationship that is like youppreciate hearing that stuff.
So you can find us the podcast. The Instagram page
is at Amy and t J Podcast. You can find
us both personally on TikTok and on Instagram. Baby, thank
you for the chat. Now let's go listen to this
(52:16):
back and fight about it.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Oh, I think this is going to be a good
one to listen back to. Yeah, I do. I love you.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
I love you, Betty
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Amy Robach
T.J. Holmes
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