December 17, 2025 • 17 mins
The husband and wife leaders of “His Way Spirit Led Assemblies” were charged with murder along with two other members after the death of a 4-year-old boy and a 40-year-old man. Police say the murders happened more than 10 years apart, and there is another member who has been missing since 2019. Former members of the group who managed to escape, describe the bizarre and at times frightening atmosphere they lived in, for years.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, there are folks. It is Wednesday, December seventeenth. A
four year old dead, a forty year old dead. Their
deaths were thirteen years apart, but their deaths have now
been brought together in a bizarre, twisted, winding murder investigation
involving was described as a religious cult in California. And
(00:26):
with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ.
I try my best there to build this story where
with the best I could at the top. But that's
the way. It is, a winding, bizarre, strange story involving
two different deaths now two different homicides, and a whole
bunch of people involved now in being charged.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
With murder and a missing man still a former member
who they believe may also have been murdered. So there
is still some intrigue into what happened to a forty
one year old in that cult.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And we're talking about a group I had no idea about.
In fact, the city where they're based out there him
it and what is it called? Out there in California.
It's situated kind of between San Diego and La but
a little more inland. I didn't know it.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
No man's land basically, but thing called.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
His Way spirit Led Assemblies.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Correct, right, And there's a reason why we haven't heard
of it because even police described this as a secretive
California religious group. And when you hear from some former members,
they didn't want anyone to know about them, and they
didn't want anyone to leave. And if you tried to, well,
there were two missing men.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Well, and that's possibly why we now have some answers
and there might be some consequences for folks because some
folks finally got out and started talking. One of these
murders we're talking about. Yes, police are calling it the
murder of a four year old boy. This was back
in twenty ten. They investigated at the time and could
not bring charges until now. And this is all tied
to another murder investigation. So this let's just start at
(01:57):
the top here. His Way spirit Led Assemblies again. This
religious group is what they call themselves. What is the
word the prosecutor You didn't say cult, He.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Called him a highly secretive He said control.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Oh, a high control control group, a cult like high
control group is how they described it. But six members
were arrested, four of them charged with murder and two
of them charged with multiple murders.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
So that's the part of this heart six arrests. Not
everybody's involved in the murder. So let's take out some
of the people who are involved in that. That's just
weapons charge. Yes, okay, we'll get rid of them. It's
crazy to think that. But oh, they don't rise to
the level. What kind of in this case is these
other four rise to the level? And we're talking about
four people charged with two murders, one of them Tim Thomas.
(02:45):
Let's start there, the four year old.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Boy, Timothy Thomas.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
So Kat Martin, who is considered the prophetess of this group,
and her husband, Darryl Music Martin are charged along with
the boy's father, Andre Thomas, who was also a member
of this religious organization.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
So the three of them are charged with the murder
of four year old Timothy Thomas.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Okay, now, the other victim, Gannum is that Emilio forty
years old now murdered as well. But he's been missing,
ain't nobody's seen him or heard from him since twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Three, correct, And they found out they found his burned
out truck in the Mojave Desert and they found evidence
of murder by the way they've never found his body,
but they were finally able to get enough evidence from
that burned out truck to be able to charge. Now
two of the defendants. That's Kat Martin and her husband,
Darryl Music Martin, along with Rudy Moreno, who is another
(03:43):
member with his murder.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Do I have ryth ough Darryl is only facing chargers
in the Ganni murder and not the boys murder? Do
I have that right?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I actually saw.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
It's confusing, but I saw two different, uh, two different
news reports that had Darrell charged with both of the
murders and then had him charged with only one of
the murders. But there was a local California NBC report
who said that he was charged in both of them.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Okay, so this is what we're talking so we only
have Do I have it right that in two charged
in Gannum's murder, three charged in Ganham's murder? Then yes, right,
Oh my goodness, this is what we're talking about, folks
all over the place. I guess it will certainly stand
out robes when we're talking about the four year old boy,
Tim Thomas twenty ten, the way they describe how he
went about how he died and it was completely on.
(04:35):
It didn't have to happen.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
It's appalling actually, so I know you won't be surprised
to hear that I had appendicitis and had to have
my appendix removed. But if you do not have your
appendix removed, if you do not get medical attention, it's absolute, painful, agonizing,
horrific death. And they would not and did not seek
(04:57):
medical attention from him and his brother at the time.
He spoke to ABC News and said his brother was
writhing in pain, had fevers, was vomiting blood, was begging
for help, and they just said the Lord will save
him if he chooses, and let him die.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Yeah, a four year old who complained, who was in pain.
You're so you're talking about a kid who died through
days of agonizing pain.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
It was torture and her for a kid for a week,
it was horrifical.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Okay, So the bizarre things. So why is he in
their care? Yes, the dad had become a part of
this religious group and they separated the families as you
were saying there, but he was placed in the care
of these leaders of this church in their home. Essentially.
I didn't understand, like why they had to be separated.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
In all this, the brothers said, this is very much
like it reminds me of I was out there with
the FLDS. They in order to continue to lead and
be powerful, they actually separate families so they don't let
children live with their parents. They control everyone, and they
controlled the children especially. And so yes, Kat Martin and
Daryl Martin were the leaders, the husband and wife team,
(06:05):
and they let this sweet little boy die in horrific
pain when he absolutely could be saved.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
So this is in twenty ten. You move forward now, folks.
Emilio Gainum Ghanam Monk keep Saint wrong. Ghanam forty years old.
He went missing in twenty twenty three. He had left
the church as well. He had moved elsewhere, gone off
to Tennessee somewhere, came back for a visit, met with
somebody from the church, and he ain't been seen since
in twenty twenty three. His truck was found in the desert,
burned out in twenty twenty five this year, and police
(06:37):
say they saw evidence of a crime, a homicide in
that truck. That got them going on that case. But
it also got them looking at this death that this
boy once again, and they say yes. After years, some
more people were willing to talk.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
So this has been such a secretive society that now
that some members were able to and they say escape
in the middle of the night, those members and some
of them are still afraid to speak and give their names.
That's how afraid they were for their own safety. But
they finally started speaking to police. They finally were able
to put things together. And when it comes to Ganham,
he apparently he met a member in Starbucks and he
(07:14):
told this member that he was going to help a
high ranking member escape that this high ranking member said,
I want to get out. You were able to do it,
can you help me? But this member says he thinks
it was all a ruse to lure him back and
to get rid of him because he left and they
were saying that his new business was competing with their
business and they wanted him dead. It's some really scary
(07:35):
mob like mentality if that's exactly what happened. But they
purposely targeted him, according to this member, and got rid
of him.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So missing hasn't been seen, and we have another missing
hasn't been seen, and he is This other one is
the brother of someone also now facing charges. Again, folks,
we're trying to keep up ourselves and hope you're keeping up.
But this is a mess out there in California.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
With this, it really is.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
So they are looking for yes Moreno, he's forty one
years old. He hasn't been seen since twenty nineteen, not
a trace of him. And by the way, we mentioned
Gannum's body has never been found either.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
So this is mysterious.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
This is concerning, And certainly now this investigation has broken
wide open and they're going to be looking into all
of that. But when you start reading about what former
members are saying went on and has been going on
inside that cult for the past several decades, it is bizarre.
It is concerning, and there are still plenty of active
members living out there in this very desolate area of California,
(08:40):
continuing on in this cult like religion.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Have you seen any idn't any indications how large the
group is, how many.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I didn't get a sense of it, but they said
that this is this is much like the FLDS. They
have construction companies, they have pest control companies, and they
put all of these folks to work and send them
out and they said that they're earning about two million
dollars a year and they're able to do this all
tax free because you see, it's a religion, it's a church,
and so any money that these members make they give
back to the church, which is basically these leaders.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
And they've been raking it in.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
So it's big enough where they're generating two million dollars
of tax free income each year. So they say that
the motive for most of this has been greed in power,
which is isn't that the case for most of the world.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Oh my god? And look some of the folks who
we have gotten now you mentioned Tim Thomas's brother talked
about what they went through. But some of the reports
that we get out of what happened, and I guess
it's typical stuff that we have seen over the years
in high profile cases about cults. They've been quite frankly
in the mainstream in a lot of ways. Going back
to Waco, right, that's true. We have some sense of
understand I say, Waco, you can go back to Jonestown.
(09:47):
Even so, it's we see some of it, but it's
still always it's bizarre and it's disturbing to hear. And
now When you talk about a four year old dead
and you talk about a group that people knew exactly
what happened to him, and for fifteen years nobody would speak,
that's pretty damn secret.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
That speaks to the power of what these folks said.
So they say cat the folks who have gotten out.
Anthony Durand gave a fascinating interview to CBS News. He
got out of the or, he escaped, but his family
is still there. He said he hasn't spoken to his
mom in years. He told her that he and his
wife had a baby. He was able to get word
to her and she said, I don't want anything to
do with you and that demon child like.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
They actually look.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
People are looking for purpose, they're looking for a higher power.
They're looking for something to belong to, and this is
unfortunately they pray on folks who are looking for that
sense of belonging.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
But they say cat.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
The woman who has now been charged with two murders
was the prophetess.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
She would speak in tongues.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
They said, she would speak with a British accent when
she was prophetizing, and basically they said she was God.
Whatever she said went and nobody questioned it. But they
said she would shake and convulse, open her eyes really wide,
and start talking in tongues. So it's kind of what
we see in the movies depicted was actually and has
been happening there in California for decades.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Now.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I was gonna say this was also interesting to me.
Members of the church were told not to read the Bible,
and so they said, the Bible is not what you
should be basing this on. But church leaders what they said, Kat,
what Kat said, what her husband said, and so they
took the place of the Bible for these folks.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
That's when you put it that way, took the place
of the Bible. That's pretty significant power. But stay here, folks,
who mentioned that Tim Thomas, several people are facing charges
in their little four year old boy's death, among them
his dad, who is a former member. However, there are
some speaking strongly against the idea of the father actually
(11:48):
being responsible, saying he shouldn't be facing any charges at all.
We'll explains to her, all right, folks, We continue here
on Amy and TJ with his bizarre story of what,
by all accounts is described as a cult out in California.
(12:09):
His way spirit led assemblies where Several members are now
facing murder charges and two separate murders, one of them
for a four year old boy who died in twenty
ten after he didn't get medical treetment for appendicitis Rope.
We talked about this one in particular. It's just a shame.
He didn't have to die appendicy He just suffered. Four
year old boy, think about it, just suffered. Well, he
(12:30):
was there with his brother who was Certainly they're older now,
and you talk about the interview they gave. Who's responsible.
The dad is facing charges, yes, but he shouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Some will tell you his own son says he shouldn't
be because he said he was under the power of
these two cult leaders, just like everybody else, and no
one questioned what they said. So if they said Tim
is not getting medical attention, and by the way, no
one could see the doctor. They didn't allow anyone to
get help for anything. So they said that they weren't
(13:03):
allowed to seek medical attention, and that meant that they
didn't have enough faith in God. So it was very
much God's ability, so that if you wanted to seek
medical attention, that meant that you were not putting your
faith in God, your faith in God. God should be
able to heal you. And if God wants to heal you,
he'll heal you. And if he doesn't, you'll die. And
(13:23):
that's part of their culture. So yes, the father was
swept up in this ideology, and certainly the power structure
that was in place in this cult would never have
allowed him to go against what this couple at the
top said.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
You just made me think, what if you get life
saving treatment? Right? What if you actually get something treatment,
medical treatment to save your life. Does that mean then
that you went against God's wishes? Yes, because God wanted
you to die, and you went against the plan.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
According to this couple, and they prayed. But look, look,
I'm telling you. I was in the hospital for my appendicizes.
It took them a while to figure out what was
going on. I was in so much pain, babe, I
had morphine drips, I was delirious with a fever. I was.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
I actually came close to death because they couldn't figure
it out.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
I have a little feeling, or a little inkling of
what this poor little boy went through and I suffered
with morphine. It actually makes me want to sob to
think about this little boy not having any sort of
intervention or any help.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
That is one of the most painful things.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
To go through sepsis days steps is it takes that
long for the for the It's basically it's a bacterial infection,
and when your appendix bursts, it sends bacteria all through
in your body, like starts to shut down organ by organ.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
It is horrifically painful.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
It is.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
It's an I cannot even imagine.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Took him seven days to die. They said, yea, he
from the moment he complained seven days he was he
was dead seven days later, and he could one hospital,
visit and in anywhere in those seven days, and we
had a different outcome. So that's why these folks are
now facing charges. This is I mean, who knows how
this case is going to go, but it's bizarre. I
think this group is going to be under scrutiny a
(15:04):
lot more attention. How much can you do if they're
that secretive. I don't know, but this is a damn
shame of fifteen years to get this kid's some justice
potentially here. I don't know how in a case you
can make an argument that this is our religious belief.
I mean, people have these right, But where's the line
legally we should bring somebody in. Where's the line legally
between your religious beliefs and child and endangerment, child cruelty? Right?
(15:26):
You can't say yes, pray it.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Away when a life can be saved by modern medicine
and you don't allow someone who is underage to receive that.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Do you have the right based on your religious beliefs.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
You do not have the right to harm someone based
on your religious beliefs.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
And again the argument in court will be why non
action is still harm? We prayed if you're in action
led to the death of someone or the harm. Religious
beliefs are not a defense when it comes to that.
And so this is sad, and you know these leaders
when you start to hear these accounts making and we've
heard this similarly in other cult like organizations. But you
(16:04):
have to cut off anyone who isn't part of the church.
So if you leave, if that father left, his children
would have had to have stayed with him them, Like
you can't bring your family or your friends with you,
and you are cut off and you are alone, and
you have to completely lose touch with anyone who is
still inside that compound. So you think about that father,
perhaps all of these thoughts were swirling in his head
(16:25):
that he couldn't take his kids with him, or that
he just didn't think he was allowed. He might have
thought God was going to punish him. Who knows what
he believed based on these two people who were controlling
all of the folks inside this cult.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
It's fascinating, sure, in a lot of ways, but it
is sad to think of what happened to this little boy,
also that forty year old man, also the other man
who is now missing as well. But we will stay
on top of this. Reminders always top right corner of
that Apple podcast app where you see our show, little
button says follow click that and you can get our
updates coming to you all the time. And with that,
(16:57):
we always appreciate you spending some time with us on TJ.
Holmes on behalf of Amy. Robert will talk to your sir,
Hey, there are folks. It is Wednesday, December seventeenth. A
four year old dead, a forty year old dead. Their
deaths were thirteen years apart, but their deaths have now
been brought together in a bizarre, twisted, winding murder investigation
involving was described as a religious cult in California. And
(00:26):
with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ.
I try my best there to build this story where
with the best I could at the top. But that's
the way. It is, a winding, bizarre, strange story involving
two different deaths now two different homicides, and a whole
bunch of people involved now in being charged.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
With murder and a missing man still a former member
who they believe may also have been murdered. So there
is still some intrigue into what happened to a forty
one year old in that cult.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And we're talking about a group I had no idea about.
In fact, the city where they're based out there him
it and what is it called? Out there in California.
It's situated kind of between San Diego and La but
a little more inland. I didn't know it.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
No man's land basically, but thing called.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
His Way spirit Led Assemblies.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Correct, right, And there's a reason why we haven't heard
of it because even police described this as a secretive
California religious group. And when you hear from some former members,
they didn't want anyone to know about them, and they
didn't want anyone to leave. And if you tried to, well,
there were two missing men.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Well, and that's possibly why we now have some answers
and there might be some consequences for folks because some
folks finally got out and started talking. One of these
murders we're talking about. Yes, police are calling it the
murder of a four year old boy. This was back
in twenty ten. They investigated at the time and could
not bring charges until now. And this is all tied
to another murder investigation. So this let's just start at
(01:57):
the top here. His Way spirit Led Assemblies again. This
religious group is what they call themselves. What is the
word the prosecutor You didn't say cult, He.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Called him a highly secretive He said control.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Oh, a high control control group, a cult like high
control group is how they described it. But six members
were arrested, four of them charged with murder and two
of them charged with multiple murders.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
So that's the part of this heart six arrests. Not
everybody's involved in the murder. So let's take out some
of the people who are involved in that. That's just
weapons charge. Yes, okay, we'll get rid of them. It's
crazy to think that. But oh, they don't rise to
the level. What kind of in this case is these
other four rise to the level? And we're talking about
four people charged with two murders, one of them Tim Thomas.
(02:45):
Let's start there, the four year old.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Boy, Timothy Thomas.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
So Kat Martin, who is considered the prophetess of this group,
and her husband, Darryl Music Martin are charged along with
the boy's father, Andre Thomas, who was also a member
of this religious organization.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
So the three of them are charged with the murder
of four year old Timothy Thomas.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Okay, now, the other victim, Gannum is that Emilio forty
years old now murdered as well. But he's been missing,
ain't nobody's seen him or heard from him since twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Three, correct, And they found out they found his burned
out truck in the Mojave Desert and they found evidence
of murder by the way they've never found his body,
but they were finally able to get enough evidence from
that burned out truck to be able to charge. Now
two of the defendants. That's Kat Martin and her husband,
Darryl Music Martin, along with Rudy Moreno, who is another
(03:43):
member with his murder.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Do I have ryth ough Darryl is only facing chargers
in the Ganni murder and not the boys murder? Do
I have that right?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I actually saw.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
It's confusing, but I saw two different, uh, two different
news reports that had Darrell charged with both of the
murders and then had him charged with only one of
the murders. But there was a local California NBC report
who said that he was charged in both of them.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Okay, so this is what we're talking so we only
have Do I have it right that in two charged
in Gannum's murder, three charged in Ganham's murder? Then yes, right,
Oh my goodness, this is what we're talking about, folks
all over the place. I guess it will certainly stand
out robes when we're talking about the four year old boy,
Tim Thomas twenty ten, the way they describe how he
went about how he died and it was completely on.
(04:35):
It didn't have to happen.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
It's appalling actually, so I know you won't be surprised
to hear that I had appendicitis and had to have
my appendix removed. But if you do not have your
appendix removed, if you do not get medical attention, it's absolute, painful, agonizing,
horrific death. And they would not and did not seek
(04:57):
medical attention from him and his brother at the time.
He spoke to ABC News and said his brother was
writhing in pain, had fevers, was vomiting blood, was begging
for help, and they just said the Lord will save
him if he chooses, and let him die.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Yeah, a four year old who complained, who was in pain.
You're so you're talking about a kid who died through
days of agonizing pain.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
It was torture and her for a kid for a week,
it was horrifical.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Okay, So the bizarre things. So why is he in
their care? Yes, the dad had become a part of
this religious group and they separated the families as you
were saying there, but he was placed in the care
of these leaders of this church in their home. Essentially.
I didn't understand, like why they had to be separated.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
In all this, the brothers said, this is very much
like it reminds me of I was out there with
the FLDS. They in order to continue to lead and
be powerful, they actually separate families so they don't let
children live with their parents. They control everyone, and they
controlled the children especially. And so yes, Kat Martin and
Daryl Martin were the leaders, the husband and wife team,
(06:05):
and they let this sweet little boy die in horrific
pain when he absolutely could be saved.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
So this is in twenty ten. You move forward now, folks.
Emilio Gainum Ghanam Monk keep Saint wrong. Ghanam forty years old.
He went missing in twenty twenty three. He had left
the church as well. He had moved elsewhere, gone off
to Tennessee somewhere, came back for a visit, met with
somebody from the church, and he ain't been seen since
in twenty twenty three. His truck was found in the desert,
burned out in twenty twenty five this year, and police
(06:37):
say they saw evidence of a crime, a homicide in
that truck. That got them going on that case. But
it also got them looking at this death that this
boy once again, and they say yes. After years, some
more people were willing to talk.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
So this has been such a secretive society that now
that some members were able to and they say escape
in the middle of the night, those members and some
of them are still afraid to speak and give their names.
That's how afraid they were for their own safety. But
they finally started speaking to police. They finally were able
to put things together. And when it comes to Ganham,
he apparently he met a member in Starbucks and he
(07:14):
told this member that he was going to help a
high ranking member escape that this high ranking member said,
I want to get out. You were able to do it,
can you help me? But this member says he thinks
it was all a ruse to lure him back and
to get rid of him because he left and they
were saying that his new business was competing with their
business and they wanted him dead. It's some really scary
(07:35):
mob like mentality if that's exactly what happened. But they
purposely targeted him, according to this member, and got rid
of him.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So missing hasn't been seen, and we have another missing
hasn't been seen, and he is This other one is
the brother of someone also now facing charges. Again, folks,
we're trying to keep up ourselves and hope you're keeping up.
But this is a mess out there in California.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
With this, it really is.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
So they are looking for yes Moreno, he's forty one
years old. He hasn't been seen since twenty nineteen, not
a trace of him. And by the way, we mentioned
Gannum's body has never been found either.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
So this is mysterious.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
This is concerning, And certainly now this investigation has broken
wide open and they're going to be looking into all
of that. But when you start reading about what former
members are saying went on and has been going on
inside that cult for the past several decades, it is bizarre.
It is concerning, and there are still plenty of active
members living out there in this very desolate area of California,
(08:40):
continuing on in this cult like religion.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Have you seen any idn't any indications how large the
group is, how many.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I didn't get a sense of it, but they said
that this is this is much like the FLDS. They
have construction companies, they have pest control companies, and they
put all of these folks to work and send them
out and they said that they're earning about two million
dollars a year and they're able to do this all
tax free because you see, it's a religion, it's a church,
and so any money that these members make they give
back to the church, which is basically these leaders.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
And they've been raking it in.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
So it's big enough where they're generating two million dollars
of tax free income each year. So they say that
the motive for most of this has been greed in power,
which is isn't that the case for most of the world.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Oh my god? And look some of the folks who
we have gotten now you mentioned Tim Thomas's brother talked
about what they went through. But some of the reports
that we get out of what happened, and I guess
it's typical stuff that we have seen over the years
in high profile cases about cults. They've been quite frankly
in the mainstream in a lot of ways. Going back
to Waco, right, that's true. We have some sense of
understand I say, Waco, you can go back to Jonestown.
(09:47):
Even so, it's we see some of it, but it's
still always it's bizarre and it's disturbing to hear. And
now When you talk about a four year old dead
and you talk about a group that people knew exactly
what happened to him, and for fifteen years nobody would speak,
that's pretty damn secret.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
That speaks to the power of what these folks said.
So they say cat the folks who have gotten out.
Anthony Durand gave a fascinating interview to CBS News. He
got out of the or, he escaped, but his family
is still there. He said he hasn't spoken to his
mom in years. He told her that he and his
wife had a baby. He was able to get word
to her and she said, I don't want anything to
do with you and that demon child like.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
They actually look.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
People are looking for purpose, they're looking for a higher power.
They're looking for something to belong to, and this is
unfortunately they pray on folks who are looking for that
sense of belonging.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
But they say cat.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
The woman who has now been charged with two murders
was the prophetess.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
She would speak in tongues.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
They said, she would speak with a British accent when
she was prophetizing, and basically they said she was God.
Whatever she said went and nobody questioned it. But they
said she would shake and convulse, open her eyes really wide,
and start talking in tongues. So it's kind of what
we see in the movies depicted was actually and has
been happening there in California for decades.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Now.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I was gonna say this was also interesting to me.
Members of the church were told not to read the Bible,
and so they said, the Bible is not what you
should be basing this on. But church leaders what they said, Kat,
what Kat said, what her husband said, and so they
took the place of the Bible for these folks.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
That's when you put it that way, took the place
of the Bible. That's pretty significant power. But stay here, folks,
who mentioned that Tim Thomas, several people are facing charges
in their little four year old boy's death, among them
his dad, who is a former member. However, there are
some speaking strongly against the idea of the father actually
(11:48):
being responsible, saying he shouldn't be facing any charges at all.
We'll explains to her, all right, folks, We continue here
on Amy and TJ with his bizarre story of what,
by all accounts is described as a cult out in California.
(12:09):
His way spirit led assemblies where Several members are now
facing murder charges and two separate murders, one of them
for a four year old boy who died in twenty
ten after he didn't get medical treetment for appendicitis Rope.
We talked about this one in particular. It's just a shame.
He didn't have to die appendicy He just suffered. Four
year old boy, think about it, just suffered. Well, he
(12:30):
was there with his brother who was Certainly they're older now,
and you talk about the interview they gave. Who's responsible.
The dad is facing charges, yes, but he shouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Some will tell you his own son says he shouldn't
be because he said he was under the power of
these two cult leaders, just like everybody else, and no
one questioned what they said. So if they said Tim
is not getting medical attention, and by the way, no
one could see the doctor. They didn't allow anyone to
get help for anything. So they said that they weren't
(13:03):
allowed to seek medical attention, and that meant that they
didn't have enough faith in God. So it was very
much God's ability, so that if you wanted to seek
medical attention, that meant that you were not putting your
faith in God, your faith in God. God should be
able to heal you. And if God wants to heal you,
he'll heal you. And if he doesn't, you'll die. And
(13:23):
that's part of their culture. So yes, the father was
swept up in this ideology, and certainly the power structure
that was in place in this cult would never have
allowed him to go against what this couple at the
top said.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
You just made me think, what if you get life
saving treatment? Right? What if you actually get something treatment,
medical treatment to save your life. Does that mean then
that you went against God's wishes? Yes, because God wanted
you to die, and you went against the plan.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
According to this couple, and they prayed. But look, look,
I'm telling you. I was in the hospital for my appendicizes.
It took them a while to figure out what was
going on. I was in so much pain, babe, I
had morphine drips, I was delirious with a fever. I was.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
I actually came close to death because they couldn't figure
it out.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
I have a little feeling, or a little inkling of
what this poor little boy went through and I suffered
with morphine. It actually makes me want to sob to
think about this little boy not having any sort of
intervention or any help.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
That is one of the most painful things.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
To go through sepsis days steps is it takes that
long for the for the It's basically it's a bacterial infection,
and when your appendix bursts, it sends bacteria all through
in your body, like starts to shut down organ by organ.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
It is horrifically painful.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
It is.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
It's an I cannot even imagine.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Took him seven days to die. They said, yea, he
from the moment he complained seven days he was he
was dead seven days later, and he could one hospital,
visit and in anywhere in those seven days, and we
had a different outcome. So that's why these folks are
now facing charges. This is I mean, who knows how
this case is going to go, but it's bizarre. I
think this group is going to be under scrutiny a
(15:04):
lot more attention. How much can you do if they're
that secretive. I don't know, but this is a damn
shame of fifteen years to get this kid's some justice
potentially here. I don't know how in a case you
can make an argument that this is our religious belief.
I mean, people have these right, But where's the line
legally we should bring somebody in. Where's the line legally
between your religious beliefs and child and endangerment, child cruelty? Right?
(15:26):
You can't say yes, pray it.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Away when a life can be saved by modern medicine
and you don't allow someone who is underage to receive that.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Do you have the right based on your religious beliefs.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
You do not have the right to harm someone based
on your religious beliefs.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
And again the argument in court will be why non
action is still harm? We prayed if you're in action
led to the death of someone or the harm. Religious
beliefs are not a defense when it comes to that.
And so this is sad, and you know these leaders
when you start to hear these accounts making and we've
heard this similarly in other cult like organizations. But you
(16:04):
have to cut off anyone who isn't part of the church.
So if you leave, if that father left, his children
would have had to have stayed with him them, Like
you can't bring your family or your friends with you,
and you are cut off and you are alone, and
you have to completely lose touch with anyone who is
still inside that compound. So you think about that father,
perhaps all of these thoughts were swirling in his head
(16:25):
that he couldn't take his kids with him, or that
he just didn't think he was allowed. He might have
thought God was going to punish him. Who knows what
he believed based on these two people who were controlling
all of the folks inside this cult.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
It's fascinating, sure, in a lot of ways, but it
is sad to think of what happened to this little boy,
also that forty year old man, also the other man
who is now missing as well. But we will stay
on top of this. Reminders always top right corner of
that Apple podcast app where you see our show, little
button says follow click that and you can get our
updates coming to you all the time. And with that,
(16:57):
we always appreciate you spending some time with us on TJ.
Holmes on behalf of Amy. Robert will talk to your sir,
Hosts And Creators
Amy Robach
T.J. Holmes
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