June 12, 2024 • 42 mins
Things get fascinating and a little fun when a LIVE audience — for the first time — gets to ask Amy & T. J. ANYTHING.
The couple is taken aback when one unexpected audience member asks them a question they’d never considered.
Plus, their friend and “America’s psychologist” Dr. Jeff Gardere joins Amy & T.J. onstage with a message about dealing with shame.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
While we get doctor Guardier America's psychologists, and there's a
couple of things we want to talk to him about.
But as we get him adjusted up here, we absolutely
wanted to take questions from you guys. I think it's
a small enough room that you all can shout them out.
So by all means, can we get doctor as we
get him up here, anybody got a question, you all
toss it out.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We need to talk.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Oh, by goodness, yes, this happened in a in a
crowded public place. People were all around us at the time, loud,
pardon good time, and we were sitting there the only
and I may say, hey, so are we going to talk?
Why aren't you acknowledging what's happening? So do you just
(00:54):
want to keep going the way we're going, because if
you want to, we can and I will drop it
and we're done. If not, we need to have a
conversation about what's happening and a way forward because we
are working together every day. We're together every day together
all the time. So either we address it and drop it,
or address it and figure out what we're going to
(01:15):
do about How wasn't this aggressive when I did?
Speaker 3 (01:17):
But but yeah, it was. It was a crowded room,
which actually was probably best because I said, can I
think about that? And then I think we talked about
it the next day, and then we kept talking about it.
But I was so shocked that he brought it up
that you, like, I think you maybe had a little
liquid courage, but I was not prepared for you to
(01:40):
call me out. And that was a moment when I thought, oh, wow,
we actually have to acknowledge this.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Anybody else, Gret, I'm curious, how are your colleagues that work?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
So we went back to work for two days after
that tabloid that shall not be named release those photos
of as we pointed out, just discovering us in a
private relationship. They did not catch us cheating. That was
not what happened. They found us in our private relationship.
(02:12):
But when we came back for those two days, we
were surrounded with support. My dressing room was full of
all of our colleagues.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Some of it fake, some of it fake absolutely, some
of it was bs.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
But once it was clear that we weren't coming back,
I never heard from most people again.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, and we get that to a certain degree, right,
everybody's trying to hold onto their job. They don't want
to be seen as being an ally of the two
people that ABC News doesn't like, and we get it
to a certain degree. And for us, even we stayed
away from some of our former colleagues because we were
worried about them. I don't think you would mind us
(02:55):
saying this. We had lunch with Stray what last week
before last last week. You wouldn't believe the effort we
put into it with straight hand, just that Okay, you
arrive at this time and then we'll come in and
you can come in after. And we sat down with
him and we were being a politic dude wish sar
and he said, you idiots stop, just you have to
(03:16):
stop being that way and thinking that way that we
are trying to protect you straight hand from us. That
is the shame I'm talking about with. This is a
guy we've been very close to for ten years now,
and even we didn't want to get whatever our stank
is on him for some reason, and we struggled to
(03:38):
get out of that mindset. But friends like that do help,
and time helps.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I used to say, it's not like I murdered someone,
but I definitely felt like that's how it seemed if
you read comments anywhere from all of these articles. I
will say when we did walk down the street, which
we didn't often, we got a lot of people yelling support,
like we support you, we love you. Love is love,
(04:02):
Like I want to definitely say that we like. No
one came up and said anything horrible to our faces.
But it was just all the comments and all the
commentary and all the headlines. It just it weighs you
down to the point where you think I'm the worst
person in the world, and you do feel like you've
committed a crime. It's bizarre. But yes, I mean, I
(04:23):
co hosted twenty twenty. I dealt in death and destruction,
you know, and so yes, it was strange to me
to suddenly, you know, be this just hated horrible person
for loving someone. It was frustrating too, because the narrative
was not true, and so it was frustrating.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
We lost the narrative off the top. Is the problem, Yeah,
is that once people were told what it was and
we didn't come out and make a statement, even though
we drafted statements that day that ABC News said, uh right,
we were encouraged to write these statements, and we had
statements to put out explaining much of the things we
said tonight. Once we lost that ability to speak and
to control the narrative, it was done. And in social
(05:05):
media age, nothing we could do.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Perception becomes reality.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And it's simple as that. I see hands going up now, doctor,
doctor Gourdia, come on and go ahead and have a seat.
You'll know, doctor, this is doctor Jeff Gardier here. He's
gonna help us. So I see a lot of hands
going up you all.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
So, yeah, I wanted to ask you made the you
mentioned controlling the narrative. Did either of you ever consider
going to ABC.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Before the photos room?
Speaker 5 (05:37):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
And okay, how did that go?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
We decided not to. We were We've said this, I
think we've already said this publicly, but we were threatened.
We were directly threatened that if we didn't do what
was being demanded of us, that we were going to
be outed. We were threatened, and two days after that threat,
(06:00):
photographers were seretitiously following us. So that is what happens now.
Even before I think even before that threat or certainly
after it, we said, you know what, let's just go
give ABC News the PR department. A guy, a friend
of ours, there who we were close to, just the
heads up to say, hey, we are going through divorce proceedings,
this is what happened, and we're dating now and leave
(06:22):
it at that. We we absolutely.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Had those We almost did. I mean in November, I
believe it was maybe the week before the pictures. We
had a long discussion back and forth about whether or
not we should just give them a heads up. And
what we decided was, let's just wait till after the
first of the year, so let's get through the holidays
and in January we will go and explain to them
what's happening.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Even we talked to an executive. I love this line,
he said, he said, So I'm not saying we saying this.
He said, ABC News. They're idiots. All they have to
do is take you guys, now, move you to the
entertainment side and print money, is actually what he said.
(07:05):
But we lost a net. Look, we worked at a
this was a company. This is a network, a network
owned by a company Disney. That I mean, it's iconic,
right image is a cute little mouse Disney. And that
cute little mouse has been with the same girl mouse
(07:26):
for one hundred years. For divorces. That ain't work.
Speaker 6 (07:33):
A follow up question to that piece about what two
to three years ago, when you all were in that happy,
healthy place in your careers and you're still very early
stage in both of your professional careers. I would imagine
that you have milestones, professional milestones, goals that were in
your line of sight, and knowing that there are only
such limited, high visibility platforms that exist in the world
(07:55):
that you are in, do you still believe that those
goals are achievable for you?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Are they still in cable or network news?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
They've changed. Absolutely. We sit here now with the idea
of going back to network news and doing that. It
doesn't appeal to us in the least bit. Did I mention?
Those jobs almost killed us, literally almost killed us. So
we think we're doing great, but we talk about a
cost of us being together. We don't ever talk about
(08:24):
the cost of being in those gigs in the first place. Oh,
look at what you guys lost. You had these great Yeah,
I should have maybe given that gig up a long
time ago.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Agreed, I have zero desire to go back to network
news and the grind. And you know, we know how
the sausage is made, and it got more and more
frustrating to me the more I got to a higher
level and I saw it. Look media bias. It does
not exist with how we tell stories as much as
(08:59):
it is the story we don't tell. And I was
very frustrated and I had moments where I wanted to
leave before any of this happened, just frustration with the industry.
It is a business, so I wanted to be a journalist,
and sometimes those two don't don't work well together. So
as hard as it was to lose our jobs, I
mean like they were lucrative and they were fairly easy,
(09:22):
like we could do it in our sleep. It was
we were we were printing money, but it wasn't challenging,
and it wasn't really what I wanted to do. So
we're hoping and we're hopeful that we can actually start
doing things we really want to do. So trying to
look at it as an opportunity now. And because we
never would have left those jobs, Like don't like we
would have never left, we would have stayed. And so
(09:45):
now we have to look at this as the street
we were supposed to be on, and we're gonna we're
gonna walk down it and see what happens.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
And doctor guard. Dear, can I ask we love it.
I cannot say it enough how much we love his brother.
But this love you love you Black when when you
(10:16):
can speak on us, sure, But for everybody else in
this room, the idea of that private shame causing you
to behave in ways that aren't really who you are.
Speaker 7 (10:29):
So we grow up with this fairy tale of your
life is really about pairing up with someone or you're
not successful. And so we achieve all these incredible things,
but it's never enough until we feel that we're in
(10:49):
that romance or in that family or that pairing that
really is the cherry on top, and it comes in time.
But when we're in relationships, and I would think every
single one of us have been in relationships that haven't
worked out.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
And I don't say so much failure.
Speaker 7 (11:09):
Because I'm a psychologist and I'm a positive thinker, but
when they don't work out, it's the shame that we're
not being successful at everything that we've learned, all the
pairing fantasies that we've learned as part of our culture
here in America, in the world, but especially in America.
So we live with a lot of that shame that
(11:32):
it's not working out, that there's nothing we can do
to really change that relationship, that we've failed at this thing,
and our friends will look at us in a different way,
and we have to get new friends and possibly new
family and so on.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
So that shame is very real.
Speaker 7 (11:49):
But I think in a lot of ways it plays
into a lot of the criticisms that you all experienced,
because one thing is we have to look at what
COVID it has done to the world, and what it's
done to America. We have unprecedented anxiety depression PTSD, and
(12:10):
so a lot of what I saw and I looked
at it, even though we've known each other for many,
many years, I looked at it psychologically, Why are they
attacking these two people who are just trying to live
their lives, who, according to many people, made these mistakes
and so on. And they went from this you know
(12:31):
this most loved you know TV pairing as co anchors
to you know, all these tabloid stories. And I think
a lot of it had to do with the fact
that we're all emotionally ill still from COVID, and we
were looking to project a lot of the anger and
(12:54):
the shame and a lot of the grieving that we
had as part of COVID, as part of what we're
going through coming through COVID. And I think you all
see this. And I'm not going to get into the politics,
but with the tribal politics, the hate that's out there,
(13:16):
the venom that's out there, it's not fashionable to say
I'm sorry. And you all have said I'm sorry, and
you all have said how you're grateful, which is an
amazing catharsist, this amazing walk that you're taking. And so
a lot of what we see is with this splitting
(13:36):
we're okay, you're bad, projection I'm okay, you're bad. I
think a lot of this played into what you were
going through. So we have to acknowledge and take responsibility
for our own shame instead of projecting it onto other people.
Number one and number two, we have to do the
(13:58):
hard work of realizing sometimes relationships don't work out, and
it's really important for us to learn as to what
it is that we can all do better instead of
pointing fingers at one person or just ourselves, but taking
the responsibility together of learning and going on to more
(14:19):
positive relationships. And I'll just end by saying, yes, I
hear you thinking, ABC News because you are on this
very very fascinating journey of pain and love and still
some shame. I think it still takes time to work
(14:40):
through that. But you're also helping so many other people
who experience life and experience that shame.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
And so.
Speaker 7 (14:54):
These two folks need a round of applause y'all for
the incredible work that they're doing.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Thank you, Jeff, Thank you doctor Guardier. I think we
have a question back here, Hi, Hi Amy, Hi TJ.
Speaker 8 (15:09):
You know me, we did conversation together with black men
and you facilitated that. Yeah, And I find it really
interesting that this is kind of like reflecting in a
weird way, like the experience I had before getting on
set where I was like, oh, like I am like
(15:31):
this like queer person who's coming in talking about my
black maleness, and they're like, don't go this far, because like,
if you go this far, that's not what like Disney
wants to hear, That's not what ABC wants to hear.
But I again, I just want to thank you because
you allowed me to like push those things in a
space that probably wouldn't allow me to do.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
So that is that is one of the greatest compliments, right,
I remember that, but that you took something away right
in that moment. I didn't know if I'd ever see
you again. That is the greatest compliment to hear that
in that moment I made you that kind of not
something I thought I wasn't trying to impress, but my
brother that that that that feels great to have you
(16:15):
stand up here and say that to me.
Speaker 8 (16:17):
And I guess, like my question is, it's like it
seems like there's a lot of like same similarities between
like coming out and like shame and like depression and
suicide and like also like new familial like structures. And
I'm like here, I'm like here with like this like
white man, that's my date.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
And I'm like, oh, white man, Like does white man
have a name? And we're just gonna go with white
white man Leodo.
Speaker 8 (16:48):
His name is Leto, all right. But I'm like, oh
my god, Like if my dad, if I told my
dad this when I was like sixteen, he'd be like,
you've done like ruined the whole family line.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
You've married. You're like you're going to like marry a
white man. That's crazy.
Speaker 8 (17:03):
But it's like, what do you guys feel like you
guys have like some sort of like alignment to kind
of like a queer experience. Have you been able to
talk to your like queer and LGBTQ like family or
friends about how there is kind of that.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
That's cool, Well, I have my two queer friends right here,
Joe and Preston right love that I called you out.
I'm sure, But you know, I think anytime you feel
like you're an outlier or you're not like the others,
or other people can look at you and say you're bad,
you're wrong, I think there is a shared experience, for sure.
(17:42):
I don't. We haven't had that conversation, have we. I mean,
it's I'm not even getting any feedback from you, Joe
at all. Okay, Preston saying no, but I do. I do.
We appreciate that I hadn't thought about it like that,
but I love to hear that there's a connection there,
because because anytime you feel like your relationship is viewed
(18:04):
to be morally wrong, there is a shared connection. So
we appreciate that, and I hadn't thought of it that way.
But I'm happy that in some way maybe you feel
seen or heard or just like you're not alone, because
not all relationships are put on a pedestal and appreciated
(18:26):
or even welcomed. So and I really hadn't thought about that.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
And again, we for a while thought we were the
only two people in America who ever experienced a divorce.
Like we felt that way, like we were maage to
feel like we were the only ones who had a
failed marriage and then started dating again. But we to
your point there, and again all this talked about everybody's
throwing barbs at you online on social media and whatnot.
(18:51):
You wouldn't believe the number of people that have come
up to us and said, who you think you guys?
You should hear my story, like who can relate to
life relationships, love, marriage, being complicated, being messy. It's not
a perfect package. But again, when you work where we worked,
you got to have the perfect package there. It has
(19:13):
to look perfect. We know it's not perfect, but oh,
I used to say this all the time. The network
would never tell us they expect us to be perfect.
But you better make damn sure nobody ever finds out
just how imperfect you are. That got us. Yeah, and
(19:38):
doctor GARDI does that make I haven't thought about it
that way? Before does this, But does that make sense
the parallels that were just described.
Speaker 7 (19:46):
Yeah, I think I think so. I mean, certainly feeling alone,
feeling like you may not you were fortunate and that
you had the support of family. But as we know,
many of our brothers and sisters, and you know, our
trans people in the LGBTQ I plus community feel very
(20:12):
much alone. That's why suicide is the third leading cause
of death in the LGBTQ community. And I was concerned.
I'm very concerned as to the lack of support that
we see to that community, to our community. But I'm
(20:34):
also and I was also concerned, and I said this
to the two of you on one of the podcasts.
I was concerned about the two of you in that,
you know, keeping that stiff upper lip and you know,
we're getting through this, and you know, we're going to
be strong, and we're gonna robot, We're.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Gonna do this.
Speaker 7 (20:52):
And and I said, you guys are really hurting you guys,
you guys are in pain. You know, there's a lot
of embarrassment that you all felt and that was projected
onto you. And it was important that you talk about
the experience and dissect the experience and emote the experience together.
(21:15):
And so every time you have one of these talks,
I keep hearing an invisible psychologist, not necessarily this one.
I'm invisible at home, don't get me started, but an
invisible psychologist saying yes, yes, say more about that, be
(21:36):
able to support one another, talk about that pain. The
catharsis is so important, and it's not about solving a problem.
It's not about putting a bow on it or a
cherry on top, but it's about letting out that pain.
And that's what you do each and every time. And
this thing about being that perfect you know, TV couple,
(21:59):
you better be the perfect TV couple. I think you're
giving a new definition that you better be a real
person on TV because that's what we need, not what
we're seeing on social media where everyone pretends as right,
you know, to be that person, because it's not authentic.
It's about living authentic lives. And so this is something
(22:22):
that I think we all need to learn the importance
of being authentic because if you're not, that's what leads
to illness, leads to strokes, heart attacks, Depression, anxiety can
contribute and put one at risk for other illnesses, including cancer,
and so on, which we know may be genetic environmental also,
(22:46):
but it's important that you're authentic in order to be healthy.
So continue to be authentic.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Thank you. This one thing I don't want people to.
Speaker 7 (22:55):
Miss here is the friendship that will building over the years.
And I can tell you sure you know you can
meet someone one night stand or you know you you
know online dating, you meet someone very quickly, you get married.
I've seen these marriages last for years and years. It
(23:17):
happens in a different way for everyone, but one of
the tried and true formulas, and you know this too,
of a strong, strong, strong relationship is building that friendship,
getting to know each other in a way where sex
(23:39):
does not get in the way of knowing one another,
understanding each other's vulnerabilities, being there for one another, and
taking the time to truly know one another.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
And that's important.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Hey friends, I'm Jessica Capshaw and this is Kamila Luddington
and we have a new podcast, call It What It Is.
You may know us from Gracelawn Memorial, but did you
know that we are actually besties in real life.
Speaker 9 (24:16):
And as all besties do, we navigate the highs and
lows of life together. When one of us sends out
the distress signal, the other one always answers the call,
big or small. We are there, and what does that
look like?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
A thousand pep talks a million. I've got yous, some
very urgent I'm coming.
Speaker 9 (24:32):
Overs, laughter through tears, no judgment, problem solving over glasses
of rose. Sometimes it takes tequila.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Because I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Let's face it, life can get even crazier than a
season finale of Grey's Anatomy.
Speaker 9 (24:45):
And now here we are opening up the friendship circle
to you.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Someone's cheating, We've got you on that. In laws or
in lawe.
Speaker 9 (24:53):
Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Toxic friendship, air it out. We're on your side to
help you with your concerns about ours and every once
in a while bring on an awesome guest to get
their take on the things that you bring us.
Speaker 9 (25:06):
While we may be a license to advise, we're gonna
do it anyway.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Listen to call it what it is. Starting June third
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
There's a guy in a red jacket. I'm sorry, the
guy Charles yelling at me.
Speaker 10 (25:25):
Here.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Oh, God, my boy, Charles, I was telling you about
he Oh my word, this isna go. Yeah.
Speaker 11 (25:34):
So seriously, though, at what point did you guys decide
to just come out to the public and try to
even live normal lives. Tell us tell me about that
experience doing normal.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Basically, man, I mean, Charles, we went into hiding d
No November thirtieth when an article came out. We were
in two places, either her place or my flat, taking
trains back and forth, but we were not out and
public doing anything. When we finally got we took a
(26:07):
trip in February thanks to Howard. I can't remember when
we ever actually got comfortable enough to go to a
Knix gang together, to go to a restaurant together to go.
We were absolutely shut down, in lockdown.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
When we went to Mexico, we thought we were in
the clear, and we had drones following us the entire time,
and four days into the into the into the vacation,
we oh, it was everywhere and it was just Remember
we shut the curtains and we like pretty much cried
and said, we can't go anywhere in the world where
we have to go back into hiding.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Charles, I'm serious, we don't know when the Mexico thing,
we thought we were okay and safe, and we saw
the pictures later, but we ended up dipping. Like we're
sitting on the beach having lunch, picked up our food
and ran inside because it was a drone overhead taking
pictures of us. We had a nice place we were
(27:03):
staying with the open looking out to the ocean, and
one morning she said, is that a drone looking ind
to the bedroom of where we were staying. This was so,
this was February of twenty twenty three. This is all
so now we're a couple of months into it. I
can't remember how far into it to where we got
(27:24):
comfortable enough. I mean, I do not know.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
I think, I honestly believe it wasn't until the podcast.
So our podcast launched December fifth, and once we started speaking,
because we had not spoken, we had not released a statement,
we had said nothing. And once we started speaking, the
tabloids cared a lot less because it was there was
a vacuum. There was a void, so they could fill
(27:49):
it and anytime they saw me walk out or you
walk out, they could create a story about our facial
expression or what we were doing. If we smiled we
were gloating, we were rubbing it in people's faces. We
weren't being respectful. If we had a sad look on
our face, we were breaking up, we had a fight,
we were doomed, and so it got to the point
where I didn't even want to walk my dog. So
(28:11):
it wasn't until we started speaking in our podcast. So
I really feel like it's just been in the last
three months where we now feel like we can hold
up our heads and then walk down the street and
the photographers went away for the most part once we
started talking.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
No, Charl's crazy, you asked that quite haven't thought about that.
We I guess it was almost a full year that
we weren't comfortable even going to lunch together. There's a
spot around the corner from us downtown that has a
We go in there to eat. We don't sit at
the bar. There is a wooden booth that we can
close the door and the only person that can see
(28:48):
is is the bartender who can come to us and
take like this. That was our place to do it.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
It was like we were in a confessional.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, so we were high. We were finding places to
be safe and to hide out, and so yeah, I
guess it did.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Sol House was one of them. Actually, yeah, membership hit
we go in here, but there was a chase in Manhattan.
We had to get police involved to get into Soho House.
I mean it was crazy. I was like, it was
the most bizarre experience. Even having been in the media
and seeing how other celebrities have dealt with things, you
don't know what it's like until you're in it, and
you just think, this is the most bizarre, like like
(29:22):
crazy experience I couldn't have imagined. But it beats you down.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
It's funny. We literally, guys one day we were imagine
this day, full daytime, daylight out, the two of us
running down this street right here to get to get
into Soho House because we're being chased walking. We were
sprinting and running down the street trying to get into
this building. So yeah, I guess it took a full year. Bro,
(29:47):
I know ed I got in the red jack. They're
waiting for a minute, go ahead, rather.
Speaker 10 (29:50):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Quick.
Speaker 10 (29:51):
Two part question. The first is, so, one thing they
don't teach you in like school is how relationships can
affect your career. So it's interesting that your personal relationship
that's private ended up having an impact on your career.
But say you were a doctor or a lawyer or
(30:13):
so many other professions, it's like no one cares. So
it's interesting to me, And I don't know how you
would like structure that and like and for someone who's
like growing up and thinking about these things and how
you could go about it. So I think you too,
are in a position to help lead the way for
people to like create a structure for thinking about this
for someone, because if you are thinking about your career
(30:35):
in journalism or I think like acting politics and like
journalism are the only ones who really care about this stuff,
others it's like no one cares, right Like, So that's
the first I would just love to hear observations about
that one. The second is you two were such fantastic journalists,
and you know, the country needs you, the country needs
your voice, And I just wonder, you know, no one
(30:56):
really watches I don't really watch network news like that anymore.
A lot of people aren't I And I know you
don't want to get back into that grind, but when
you see people like it's not a best example of
like Tucker Carlson on X or people choosing alternative, alternative
ways to reach the people, or even John Stewart going
back to Comedy Central, was there has there ever been
(31:18):
a thought, I know you're doing the podcast.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
Has there ever been a thought of saying like we
don't need ABC anymore? Like it's a new game now,
people are watching TV in different ways. We're going to
reach the people in another way because they need our
they need us there.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Cool. So I'll take the first part, yes, and you
can take the second. The first part is you know,
I love what you said because how many people actually
meet their spouses at work? I mean a lot of
people do. That is a huge source of relationships because
you spend most of your time with your coworkers when
you get to a certain age, so it would make
sense that you would likely hang out, go out after work,
(31:57):
and potentially fall in love with your coworker. And I
think that was our frustration. Because there was no power structure.
We were in the exact same position. No one was
a boss over the other. So the truth is they
had to we we yes, we got fired because of
the distraction, but they had to honor our contracts because
they could not fire us with fault because we didn't
(32:18):
technically do anything wrong.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
And they said that that we're not just saying that
to you.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
We put that is absolutely their word. So we didn't
do anything technically wrong. People fall in love at work
every day. It's what happens. The only issue is typically
if it's a boss and someone who has power over
someone else. That I understand. So it is incredibly frustrating
that to me, well, we've said this that that a tabloid,
(32:43):
a tabloid could actually take away our careers, and that
is what happened. So that is frustrating. But I would
I think it's insane and silly just to think that
you couldn't or shouldn't consider work being a place where
you'd meet somebody. That is something that's been happening for
the you know, since the beginning of time, and it's
not going to stop. So I just think as long
(33:06):
as you know that that's someone who's your equal, that
you don't have power over that person, there's absolutely nothing
wrong with it. Now, you do always have to consider
if you break up and you still have to work together,
what that's going to look like. So that would be
the only cautionary tale I think is you know, if
you can still be friends afterwards, or at least tolerate
working next to one another. That's probably the only legitimate
concern you should have about dating somebody who you work with.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, our podcast contract is more solid than any marriage
license we will ever sign, because that's the thing that's
going to keep us together. But my the guy you're
dealing with, Martin is a good friend of mine. Well,
he's a We went to University of Arkansas together and
he helped us put this together tonight. But he said
something that goes to your point about the second part,
which is you talk about the other outlets, and you
(33:49):
talk about the networks and being in journalism and your voice.
People are over it. They are over looking at something
that is inauthentic, that isn't relatable. And as soon as
you're able to relate, soon as you're able to be authentic.
(34:12):
I tell students this all the time. The only are
they're trying to be like this gualan TV or that
gallant TV. I'm gonna emulate that anchor. The only way
you can stand out is to be yourself. And we
have struggled to find our way, our footing and our voice.
I think as soon as we nail that, and we
are getting closer and closer and closer and getting out
of that shame we're talking about. When people see there
(34:32):
are more people that relate to they might not shout
it from the rooftops like yeah, I was I had
this issue in libraries, but they know it, they feel it,
they hear it, they relate to it. And if we
are speaking about it so openly and freely, I think
that is a freedom we now have that we didn't
have before. That we relish and having that taken away
again is not something we are interested in at all.
(34:55):
So I appreciate what you're saying about our voices and
lending to through the conversations going on out there, But
the type of conversations we want to have now at
this stage in our lives and careers are not happening
on network news.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
All right, And Martin's Got one and I see you
in front two.
Speaker 12 (35:15):
Hi Tej and Hi Amy. I'm Kyla. I'm not a
Jewish mom, but I am a divorcee and I can
relate in a lot of ways. The first part is
the comment, which is a quote from Obrah where she
says there's no wrong roads in life, that everything had
to happen a reason in life, for a reason for
you to get to where you are. So you might
take the wrong career, you might be in the wrong relationship,
(35:37):
but you had to kind of go on that path
to be where you are. So although maybe ideally you
didn't want to go in this direction, but I feel
like if it didn't go this way, you probably wouldn't
be here right now. The second but my question is, though,
do you feel like proximity has a lot to do
with relationships and especially as we get older in life,
when you start realizing who you really are and what
(35:57):
you have in common with people connecting with someone who
has a similar background or has a similar you see
where I'm going with this question.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
We've said this so many times that if we met
in our twenties, we would have hated each other. We
met in our thirties, maybe we wouldn't have hit it off,
but she and I have. You wouldn't believe the trajectories
of our lives and careers that are so paralleled. We
from where how we grew up, where we grew up schools,
we went to the paths that we took to go
(36:27):
from this market to that market to cable news to
network news and ended up in the same spot. The
parallels were just unreal.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
And a blackmail version of me.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
We'll edit that out as well, But that sounds yeah,
I know she said that before. I do believe that
timing is absolutely everything. And I wasn't ready for her
or this relationship ten years ago. I was wasn't ready
(37:01):
to receive a lot of the help she was giving
me when we started working there. I just wasn't there.
So to anybody. And again, you live enough life, you
know this and understand it. Sure, proximity can have a
lot to do with it. But we had so much
in common, and so many things in our lives had
to happen exactly the way they did before we ever
(37:23):
met for us to end up in this position. Our
second marriages, both of us. This is freaky. This will oh,
this is so free, This is freaky. We didn't know
each other in twenty ten, but we got both of
us individually, got married, didn't know each other, got married
two weeks and two days apart in twenty ten, didn't
(37:48):
know each other, but both of our weddings took place
two weeks and two days apart. Both of our divorces,
and the ends of our marriages took place three weeks
apart all those years later, so weird the exact same now,
(38:09):
some people universe talking to you, sending you a certainty.
You don't believe that. I believe in that, and I understand.
I know better now, I've lived enough to know when
the universe is giving you every signal. She likes to
call it, what you say, a lighted runway, lighter runway.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Just as we were realizing how we were feeling, ABC
was sending us every week to just these unbelievable destinations
doing all of these things together. I was like, how
I've never been sent around the world with one person
for a solid eight months straight. Right when all of
this was happening, it just felt like it felt like
a lighted runway. It really did.
Speaker 10 (38:49):
It was.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
It was a bizarre thing. But I do agree that
when you can find somebody that it's just easy with.
Not to say we don't fight, but we can be
silly together and we don't judge each other and we
like the same sh that makes it so much easier.
You don't have to be like that, but it's just
it's nice to just be able to fully.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Be yourself and we are we going to have to
write there was somebody you were pointing to.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
In this moment.
Speaker 8 (39:17):
How you feel right now after sharing it?
Speaker 11 (39:19):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Lighter? I mean he was so nervous before we came
on the stage. I was a little I've never seen
you so nervous, like genuinely, but how do you feel now?
I feel lighter, you.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Know, Mann? I was to be honest. We rode here
with my daughter, Sabine in the car with us, and
she actually said to me, yeah, you why are you
so nervous? And I asked, have you seen me nervous before?
She says she couldn't really come up with said maybe
one other time. And I was so nervous, because guys,
(39:53):
we are this is the first time for two people
who have spent twenty five plus your careers being in
front of people. This is the first time that we've
come face to face with an audience. That's a little
nerve wracking, you don't know. And I'm kind of jokingly
about the tomato in the back, but we always still
(40:17):
have that in the back of our minds that somebody
is after us. And I did. I said, Hey, if
this happens if somebody rushes the stage. I actually said
that if somebody, some YouTuber in here is trying to
make a point, get something to go viral and gonna
threaten us in some way, try to get we have
to prepare for. We actually did, and that sucks and
(40:39):
I'm sorry, but doing it now. And this is why
it was so important for doctor Garder to be here.
It was so important for we have so many friends
over here. You can't get to them because they're behind
the red velvet rope. But to have Sabine here, my daughter,
and to have her daughter, an Elysea in the room,
(40:59):
and what we've wanted and wanted and wanted is to
make sure our kids were exposed to us. We hang
out all the time, but to be exposed to us
and see that, oh wow, they do have support, Like
there are other people who love mom and dad, there
are other people who are supporting them. Was very important.
(41:20):
So do I feel lighter? Maybe the second Manhattan has
something to do with how light I'm feeling. But thank
you for that question. And yes, you all are part
of absolutely therapy for us, and we do sincerely thank
you for that.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Thank you, thank you for being so kind and warm
and we appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
We were given this to wrap. Thank you again and
again you all hand for doctor Guardier. Thank you, Amen JJ,
thank you doctor Guardia. Give them a closing thought. Anybody
who's thinking about their life now and the choices they're making,
give them a closing thought.
Speaker 7 (41:58):
So what we see here very quickly is that it
is not just the retelling of a story, but looking
for the meanings in the things that have happened and
understanding that everything is in divine order. We have a
lesson to learn each and every day. But to tell
(42:18):
your story, you have to be courageous and not own
the pathology of those who criticize all the time, because,
as I like to say, how can you criticize the
splinter in another person's eye when you have a plank
(42:40):
in your own. Don't own their stuff, Do your thing.
While we get doctor Guardier America's psychologists, and there's a
couple of things we want to talk to him about.
But as we get him adjusted up here, we absolutely
wanted to take questions from you guys. I think it's
a small enough room that you all can shout them out.
So by all means, can we get doctor as we
get him up here, anybody got a question, you all
toss it out.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We need to talk.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Oh, by goodness, yes, this happened in a in a
crowded public place. People were all around us at the time, loud,
pardon good time, and we were sitting there the only
and I may say, hey, so are we going to talk?
Why aren't you acknowledging what's happening? So do you just
(00:54):
want to keep going the way we're going, because if
you want to, we can and I will drop it
and we're done. If not, we need to have a
conversation about what's happening and a way forward because we
are working together every day. We're together every day together
all the time. So either we address it and drop it,
or address it and figure out what we're going to
(01:15):
do about How wasn't this aggressive when I did?
Speaker 3 (01:17):
But but yeah, it was. It was a crowded room,
which actually was probably best because I said, can I
think about that? And then I think we talked about
it the next day, and then we kept talking about it.
But I was so shocked that he brought it up
that you, like, I think you maybe had a little
liquid courage, but I was not prepared for you to
(01:40):
call me out. And that was a moment when I thought, oh, wow,
we actually have to acknowledge this.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Anybody else, Gret, I'm curious, how are your colleagues that work?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
So we went back to work for two days after
that tabloid that shall not be named release those photos
of as we pointed out, just discovering us in a
private relationship. They did not catch us cheating. That was
not what happened. They found us in our private relationship.
(02:12):
But when we came back for those two days, we
were surrounded with support. My dressing room was full of
all of our colleagues.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Some of it fake, some of it fake absolutely, some
of it was bs.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
But once it was clear that we weren't coming back,
I never heard from most people again.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, and we get that to a certain degree, right,
everybody's trying to hold onto their job. They don't want
to be seen as being an ally of the two
people that ABC News doesn't like, and we get it
to a certain degree. And for us, even we stayed
away from some of our former colleagues because we were
worried about them. I don't think you would mind us
(02:55):
saying this. We had lunch with Stray what last week
before last last week. You wouldn't believe the effort we
put into it with straight hand, just that Okay, you
arrive at this time and then we'll come in and
you can come in after. And we sat down with
him and we were being a politic dude wish sar
and he said, you idiots stop, just you have to
(03:16):
stop being that way and thinking that way that we
are trying to protect you straight hand from us. That
is the shame I'm talking about with. This is a
guy we've been very close to for ten years now,
and even we didn't want to get whatever our stank
is on him for some reason, and we struggled to
(03:38):
get out of that mindset. But friends like that do help,
and time helps.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I used to say, it's not like I murdered someone,
but I definitely felt like that's how it seemed if
you read comments anywhere from all of these articles. I
will say when we did walk down the street, which
we didn't often, we got a lot of people yelling support,
like we support you, we love you. Love is love,
(04:02):
Like I want to definitely say that we like. No
one came up and said anything horrible to our faces.
But it was just all the comments and all the
commentary and all the headlines. It just it weighs you
down to the point where you think I'm the worst
person in the world, and you do feel like you've
committed a crime. It's bizarre. But yes, I mean, I
(04:23):
co hosted twenty twenty. I dealt in death and destruction,
you know, and so yes, it was strange to me
to suddenly, you know, be this just hated horrible person
for loving someone. It was frustrating too, because the narrative
was not true, and so it was frustrating.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
We lost the narrative off the top. Is the problem, Yeah,
is that once people were told what it was and
we didn't come out and make a statement, even though
we drafted statements that day that ABC News said, uh right,
we were encouraged to write these statements, and we had
statements to put out explaining much of the things we
said tonight. Once we lost that ability to speak and
to control the narrative, it was done. And in social
(05:05):
media age, nothing we could do.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Perception becomes reality.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And it's simple as that. I see hands going up now, doctor,
doctor Gourdia, come on and go ahead and have a seat.
You'll know, doctor, this is doctor Jeff Gardier here. He's
gonna help us. So I see a lot of hands
going up you all.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
So, yeah, I wanted to ask you made the you
mentioned controlling the narrative. Did either of you ever consider
going to ABC.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Before the photos room?
Speaker 5 (05:37):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
And okay, how did that go?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
We decided not to. We were We've said this, I
think we've already said this publicly, but we were threatened.
We were directly threatened that if we didn't do what
was being demanded of us, that we were going to
be outed. We were threatened, and two days after that threat,
(06:00):
photographers were seretitiously following us. So that is what happens now.
Even before I think even before that threat or certainly
after it, we said, you know what, let's just go
give ABC News the PR department. A guy, a friend
of ours, there who we were close to, just the
heads up to say, hey, we are going through divorce proceedings,
this is what happened, and we're dating now and leave
(06:22):
it at that. We we absolutely.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Had those We almost did. I mean in November, I
believe it was maybe the week before the pictures. We
had a long discussion back and forth about whether or
not we should just give them a heads up. And
what we decided was, let's just wait till after the
first of the year, so let's get through the holidays
and in January we will go and explain to them
what's happening.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Even we talked to an executive. I love this line,
he said, he said, So I'm not saying we saying this.
He said, ABC News. They're idiots. All they have to
do is take you guys, now, move you to the
entertainment side and print money, is actually what he said.
(07:05):
But we lost a net. Look, we worked at a
this was a company. This is a network, a network
owned by a company Disney. That I mean, it's iconic,
right image is a cute little mouse Disney. And that
cute little mouse has been with the same girl mouse
(07:26):
for one hundred years. For divorces. That ain't work.
Speaker 6 (07:33):
A follow up question to that piece about what two
to three years ago, when you all were in that happy,
healthy place in your careers and you're still very early
stage in both of your professional careers. I would imagine
that you have milestones, professional milestones, goals that were in
your line of sight, and knowing that there are only
such limited, high visibility platforms that exist in the world
(07:55):
that you are in, do you still believe that those
goals are achievable for you?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Are they still in cable or network news?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
They've changed. Absolutely. We sit here now with the idea
of going back to network news and doing that. It
doesn't appeal to us in the least bit. Did I mention?
Those jobs almost killed us, literally almost killed us. So
we think we're doing great, but we talk about a
cost of us being together. We don't ever talk about
(08:24):
the cost of being in those gigs in the first place. Oh,
look at what you guys lost. You had these great Yeah,
I should have maybe given that gig up a long
time ago.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Agreed, I have zero desire to go back to network
news and the grind. And you know, we know how
the sausage is made, and it got more and more
frustrating to me the more I got to a higher
level and I saw it. Look media bias. It does
not exist with how we tell stories as much as
(08:59):
it is the story we don't tell. And I was
very frustrated and I had moments where I wanted to
leave before any of this happened, just frustration with the industry.
It is a business, so I wanted to be a journalist,
and sometimes those two don't don't work well together. So
as hard as it was to lose our jobs, I
mean like they were lucrative and they were fairly easy,
(09:22):
like we could do it in our sleep. It was
we were we were printing money, but it wasn't challenging,
and it wasn't really what I wanted to do. So
we're hoping and we're hopeful that we can actually start
doing things we really want to do. So trying to
look at it as an opportunity now. And because we
never would have left those jobs, Like don't like we
would have never left, we would have stayed. And so
(09:45):
now we have to look at this as the street
we were supposed to be on, and we're gonna we're
gonna walk down it and see what happens.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
And doctor guard. Dear, can I ask we love it.
I cannot say it enough how much we love his brother.
But this love you love you Black when when you
(10:16):
can speak on us, sure, But for everybody else in
this room, the idea of that private shame causing you
to behave in ways that aren't really who you are.
Speaker 7 (10:29):
So we grow up with this fairy tale of your
life is really about pairing up with someone or you're
not successful. And so we achieve all these incredible things,
but it's never enough until we feel that we're in
(10:49):
that romance or in that family or that pairing that
really is the cherry on top, and it comes in time.
But when we're in relationships, and I would think every
single one of us have been in relationships that haven't
worked out.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
And I don't say so much failure.
Speaker 7 (11:09):
Because I'm a psychologist and I'm a positive thinker, but
when they don't work out, it's the shame that we're
not being successful at everything that we've learned, all the
pairing fantasies that we've learned as part of our culture
here in America, in the world, but especially in America.
So we live with a lot of that shame that
(11:32):
it's not working out, that there's nothing we can do
to really change that relationship, that we've failed at this thing,
and our friends will look at us in a different way,
and we have to get new friends and possibly new
family and so on.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
So that shame is very real.
Speaker 7 (11:49):
But I think in a lot of ways it plays
into a lot of the criticisms that you all experienced,
because one thing is we have to look at what
COVID it has done to the world, and what it's
done to America. We have unprecedented anxiety depression PTSD, and
(12:10):
so a lot of what I saw and I looked
at it, even though we've known each other for many,
many years, I looked at it psychologically, Why are they
attacking these two people who are just trying to live
their lives, who, according to many people, made these mistakes
and so on. And they went from this you know
(12:31):
this most loved you know TV pairing as co anchors
to you know, all these tabloid stories. And I think
a lot of it had to do with the fact
that we're all emotionally ill still from COVID, and we
were looking to project a lot of the anger and
(12:54):
the shame and a lot of the grieving that we
had as part of COVID, as part of what we're
going through coming through COVID. And I think you all
see this. And I'm not going to get into the politics,
but with the tribal politics, the hate that's out there,
(13:16):
the venom that's out there, it's not fashionable to say
I'm sorry. And you all have said I'm sorry, and
you all have said how you're grateful, which is an
amazing catharsist, this amazing walk that you're taking. And so
a lot of what we see is with this splitting
(13:36):
we're okay, you're bad, projection I'm okay, you're bad. I
think a lot of this played into what you were
going through. So we have to acknowledge and take responsibility
for our own shame instead of projecting it onto other people.
Number one and number two, we have to do the
(13:58):
hard work of realizing sometimes relationships don't work out, and
it's really important for us to learn as to what
it is that we can all do better instead of
pointing fingers at one person or just ourselves, but taking
the responsibility together of learning and going on to more
(14:19):
positive relationships. And I'll just end by saying, yes, I
hear you thinking, ABC News because you are on this
very very fascinating journey of pain and love and still
some shame. I think it still takes time to work
(14:40):
through that. But you're also helping so many other people
who experience life and experience that shame.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
And so.
Speaker 7 (14:54):
These two folks need a round of applause y'all for
the incredible work that they're doing.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Thank you, Jeff, Thank you doctor Guardier. I think we
have a question back here, Hi, Hi Amy, Hi TJ.
Speaker 8 (15:09):
You know me, we did conversation together with black men
and you facilitated that. Yeah, And I find it really
interesting that this is kind of like reflecting in a
weird way, like the experience I had before getting on
set where I was like, oh, like I am like
(15:31):
this like queer person who's coming in talking about my
black maleness, and they're like, don't go this far, because like,
if you go this far, that's not what like Disney
wants to hear, That's not what ABC wants to hear.
But I again, I just want to thank you because
you allowed me to like push those things in a
space that probably wouldn't allow me to do.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
So that is that is one of the greatest compliments, right,
I remember that, but that you took something away right
in that moment. I didn't know if I'd ever see
you again. That is the greatest compliment to hear that
in that moment I made you that kind of not
something I thought I wasn't trying to impress, but my
brother that that that that feels great to have you
(16:15):
stand up here and say that to me.
Speaker 8 (16:17):
And I guess, like my question is, it's like it
seems like there's a lot of like same similarities between
like coming out and like shame and like depression and
suicide and like also like new familial like structures. And
I'm like here, I'm like here with like this like
white man, that's my date.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
And I'm like, oh, white man, Like does white man
have a name? And we're just gonna go with white
white man Leodo.
Speaker 8 (16:48):
His name is Leto, all right. But I'm like, oh
my god, Like if my dad, if I told my
dad this when I was like sixteen, he'd be like,
you've done like ruined the whole family line.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
You've married. You're like you're going to like marry a
white man. That's crazy.
Speaker 8 (17:03):
But it's like, what do you guys feel like you
guys have like some sort of like alignment to kind
of like a queer experience. Have you been able to
talk to your like queer and LGBTQ like family or
friends about how there is kind of that.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
That's cool, Well, I have my two queer friends right here,
Joe and Preston right love that I called you out.
I'm sure, But you know, I think anytime you feel
like you're an outlier or you're not like the others,
or other people can look at you and say you're bad,
you're wrong, I think there is a shared experience, for sure.
(17:42):
I don't. We haven't had that conversation, have we. I mean,
it's I'm not even getting any feedback from you, Joe
at all. Okay, Preston saying no, but I do. I do.
We appreciate that I hadn't thought about it like that,
but I love to hear that there's a connection there,
because because anytime you feel like your relationship is viewed
(18:04):
to be morally wrong, there is a shared connection. So
we appreciate that, and I hadn't thought of it that way.
But I'm happy that in some way maybe you feel
seen or heard or just like you're not alone, because
not all relationships are put on a pedestal and appreciated
(18:26):
or even welcomed. So and I really hadn't thought about that.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
And again, we for a while thought we were the
only two people in America who ever experienced a divorce.
Like we felt that way, like we were maage to
feel like we were the only ones who had a
failed marriage and then started dating again. But we to
your point there, and again all this talked about everybody's
throwing barbs at you online on social media and whatnot.
(18:51):
You wouldn't believe the number of people that have come
up to us and said, who you think you guys?
You should hear my story, like who can relate to
life relationships, love, marriage, being complicated, being messy. It's not
a perfect package. But again, when you work where we worked,
you got to have the perfect package there. It has
(19:13):
to look perfect. We know it's not perfect, but oh,
I used to say this all the time. The network
would never tell us they expect us to be perfect.
But you better make damn sure nobody ever finds out
just how imperfect you are. That got us. Yeah, and
(19:38):
doctor GARDI does that make I haven't thought about it
that way? Before does this, But does that make sense
the parallels that were just described.
Speaker 7 (19:46):
Yeah, I think I think so. I mean, certainly feeling alone,
feeling like you may not you were fortunate and that
you had the support of family. But as we know,
many of our brothers and sisters, and you know, our
trans people in the LGBTQ I plus community feel very
(20:12):
much alone. That's why suicide is the third leading cause
of death in the LGBTQ community. And I was concerned.
I'm very concerned as to the lack of support that
we see to that community, to our community. But I'm
(20:34):
also and I was also concerned, and I said this
to the two of you on one of the podcasts.
I was concerned about the two of you in that,
you know, keeping that stiff upper lip and you know,
we're getting through this, and you know, we're going to
be strong, and we're gonna robot, We're.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Gonna do this.
Speaker 7 (20:52):
And and I said, you guys are really hurting you guys,
you guys are in pain. You know, there's a lot
of embarrassment that you all felt and that was projected
onto you. And it was important that you talk about
the experience and dissect the experience and emote the experience together.
(21:15):
And so every time you have one of these talks,
I keep hearing an invisible psychologist, not necessarily this one.
I'm invisible at home, don't get me started, but an
invisible psychologist saying yes, yes, say more about that, be
(21:36):
able to support one another, talk about that pain. The
catharsis is so important, and it's not about solving a problem.
It's not about putting a bow on it or a
cherry on top, but it's about letting out that pain.
And that's what you do each and every time. And
this thing about being that perfect you know, TV couple,
(21:59):
you better be the perfect TV couple. I think you're
giving a new definition that you better be a real
person on TV because that's what we need, not what
we're seeing on social media where everyone pretends as right,
you know, to be that person, because it's not authentic.
It's about living authentic lives. And so this is something
(22:22):
that I think we all need to learn the importance
of being authentic because if you're not, that's what leads
to illness, leads to strokes, heart attacks, Depression, anxiety can
contribute and put one at risk for other illnesses, including cancer,
and so on, which we know may be genetic environmental also,
(22:46):
but it's important that you're authentic in order to be healthy.
So continue to be authentic.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Thank you. This one thing I don't want people to.
Speaker 7 (22:55):
Miss here is the friendship that will building over the years.
And I can tell you sure you know you can
meet someone one night stand or you know you you
know online dating, you meet someone very quickly, you get married.
I've seen these marriages last for years and years. It
(23:17):
happens in a different way for everyone, but one of
the tried and true formulas, and you know this too,
of a strong, strong, strong relationship is building that friendship,
getting to know each other in a way where sex
(23:39):
does not get in the way of knowing one another,
understanding each other's vulnerabilities, being there for one another, and
taking the time to truly know one another.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
And that's important.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Hey friends, I'm Jessica Capshaw and this is Kamila Luddington
and we have a new podcast, call It What It Is.
You may know us from Gracelawn Memorial, but did you
know that we are actually besties in real life.
Speaker 9 (24:16):
And as all besties do, we navigate the highs and
lows of life together. When one of us sends out
the distress signal, the other one always answers the call,
big or small. We are there, and what does that
look like?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
A thousand pep talks a million. I've got yous, some
very urgent I'm coming.
Speaker 9 (24:32):
Overs, laughter through tears, no judgment, problem solving over glasses
of rose. Sometimes it takes tequila.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Because I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Let's face it, life can get even crazier than a
season finale of Grey's Anatomy.
Speaker 9 (24:45):
And now here we are opening up the friendship circle
to you.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Someone's cheating, We've got you on that. In laws or
in lawe.
Speaker 9 (24:53):
Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Toxic friendship, air it out. We're on your side to
help you with your concerns about ours and every once
in a while bring on an awesome guest to get
their take on the things that you bring us.
Speaker 9 (25:06):
While we may be a license to advise, we're gonna
do it anyway.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Listen to call it what it is. Starting June third
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
There's a guy in a red jacket. I'm sorry, the
guy Charles yelling at me.
Speaker 10 (25:25):
Here.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Oh, God, my boy, Charles, I was telling you about
he Oh my word, this isna go. Yeah.
Speaker 11 (25:34):
So seriously, though, at what point did you guys decide
to just come out to the public and try to
even live normal lives. Tell us tell me about that
experience doing normal.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Basically, man, I mean, Charles, we went into hiding d
No November thirtieth when an article came out. We were
in two places, either her place or my flat, taking
trains back and forth, but we were not out and
public doing anything. When we finally got we took a
(26:07):
trip in February thanks to Howard. I can't remember when
we ever actually got comfortable enough to go to a
Knix gang together, to go to a restaurant together to go.
We were absolutely shut down, in lockdown.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
When we went to Mexico, we thought we were in
the clear, and we had drones following us the entire time,
and four days into the into the into the vacation,
we oh, it was everywhere and it was just Remember
we shut the curtains and we like pretty much cried
and said, we can't go anywhere in the world where
we have to go back into hiding.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Charles, I'm serious, we don't know when the Mexico thing,
we thought we were okay and safe, and we saw
the pictures later, but we ended up dipping. Like we're
sitting on the beach having lunch, picked up our food
and ran inside because it was a drone overhead taking
pictures of us. We had a nice place we were
(27:03):
staying with the open looking out to the ocean, and
one morning she said, is that a drone looking ind
to the bedroom of where we were staying. This was so,
this was February of twenty twenty three. This is all
so now we're a couple of months into it. I
can't remember how far into it to where we got
(27:24):
comfortable enough. I mean, I do not know.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
I think, I honestly believe it wasn't until the podcast.
So our podcast launched December fifth, and once we started speaking,
because we had not spoken, we had not released a statement,
we had said nothing. And once we started speaking, the
tabloids cared a lot less because it was there was
a vacuum. There was a void, so they could fill
(27:49):
it and anytime they saw me walk out or you
walk out, they could create a story about our facial
expression or what we were doing. If we smiled we
were gloating, we were rubbing it in people's faces. We
weren't being respectful. If we had a sad look on
our face, we were breaking up, we had a fight,
we were doomed, and so it got to the point
where I didn't even want to walk my dog. So
(28:11):
it wasn't until we started speaking in our podcast. So
I really feel like it's just been in the last
three months where we now feel like we can hold
up our heads and then walk down the street and
the photographers went away for the most part once we
started talking.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
No, Charl's crazy, you asked that quite haven't thought about that.
We I guess it was almost a full year that
we weren't comfortable even going to lunch together. There's a
spot around the corner from us downtown that has a
We go in there to eat. We don't sit at
the bar. There is a wooden booth that we can
close the door and the only person that can see
(28:48):
is is the bartender who can come to us and
take like this. That was our place to do it.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
It was like we were in a confessional.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, so we were high. We were finding places to
be safe and to hide out, and so yeah, I
guess it did.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Sol House was one of them. Actually, yeah, membership hit
we go in here, but there was a chase in Manhattan.
We had to get police involved to get into Soho House.
I mean it was crazy. I was like, it was
the most bizarre experience. Even having been in the media
and seeing how other celebrities have dealt with things, you
don't know what it's like until you're in it, and
you just think, this is the most bizarre, like like
(29:22):
crazy experience I couldn't have imagined. But it beats you down.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
It's funny. We literally, guys one day we were imagine
this day, full daytime, daylight out, the two of us
running down this street right here to get to get
into Soho House because we're being chased walking. We were
sprinting and running down the street trying to get into
this building. So yeah, I guess it took a full year. Bro,
(29:47):
I know ed I got in the red jack. They're
waiting for a minute, go ahead, rather.
Speaker 10 (29:50):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Quick.
Speaker 10 (29:51):
Two part question. The first is, so, one thing they
don't teach you in like school is how relationships can
affect your career. So it's interesting that your personal relationship
that's private ended up having an impact on your career.
But say you were a doctor or a lawyer or
(30:13):
so many other professions, it's like no one cares. So
it's interesting to me, And I don't know how you
would like structure that and like and for someone who's
like growing up and thinking about these things and how
you could go about it. So I think you too,
are in a position to help lead the way for
people to like create a structure for thinking about this
for someone, because if you are thinking about your career
(30:35):
in journalism or I think like acting politics and like
journalism are the only ones who really care about this stuff,
others it's like no one cares, right Like, So that's
the first I would just love to hear observations about
that one. The second is you two were such fantastic journalists,
and you know, the country needs you, the country needs
your voice, And I just wonder, you know, no one
(30:56):
really watches I don't really watch network news like that anymore.
A lot of people aren't I And I know you
don't want to get back into that grind, but when
you see people like it's not a best example of
like Tucker Carlson on X or people choosing alternative, alternative
ways to reach the people, or even John Stewart going
back to Comedy Central, was there has there ever been
(31:18):
a thought, I know you're doing the podcast.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
Has there ever been a thought of saying like we
don't need ABC anymore? Like it's a new game now,
people are watching TV in different ways. We're going to
reach the people in another way because they need our
they need us there.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Cool. So I'll take the first part, yes, and you
can take the second. The first part is you know,
I love what you said because how many people actually
meet their spouses at work? I mean a lot of
people do. That is a huge source of relationships because
you spend most of your time with your coworkers when
you get to a certain age, so it would make
sense that you would likely hang out, go out after work,
(31:57):
and potentially fall in love with your coworker. And I
think that was our frustration. Because there was no power structure.
We were in the exact same position. No one was
a boss over the other. So the truth is they
had to we we yes, we got fired because of
the distraction, but they had to honor our contracts because
they could not fire us with fault because we didn't
(32:18):
technically do anything wrong.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
And they said that that we're not just saying that
to you.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
We put that is absolutely their word. So we didn't
do anything technically wrong. People fall in love at work
every day. It's what happens. The only issue is typically
if it's a boss and someone who has power over
someone else. That I understand. So it is incredibly frustrating
that to me, well, we've said this that that a tabloid,
(32:43):
a tabloid could actually take away our careers, and that
is what happened. So that is frustrating. But I would
I think it's insane and silly just to think that
you couldn't or shouldn't consider work being a place where
you'd meet somebody. That is something that's been happening for
the you know, since the beginning of time, and it's
not going to stop. So I just think as long
(33:06):
as you know that that's someone who's your equal, that
you don't have power over that person, there's absolutely nothing
wrong with it. Now, you do always have to consider
if you break up and you still have to work together,
what that's going to look like. So that would be
the only cautionary tale I think is you know, if
you can still be friends afterwards, or at least tolerate
working next to one another. That's probably the only legitimate
concern you should have about dating somebody who you work with.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, our podcast contract is more solid than any marriage
license we will ever sign, because that's the thing that's
going to keep us together. But my the guy you're
dealing with, Martin is a good friend of mine. Well,
he's a We went to University of Arkansas together and
he helped us put this together tonight. But he said
something that goes to your point about the second part,
which is you talk about the other outlets, and you
(33:49):
talk about the networks and being in journalism and your voice.
People are over it. They are over looking at something
that is inauthentic, that isn't relatable. And as soon as
you're able to relate, soon as you're able to be authentic.
(34:12):
I tell students this all the time. The only are
they're trying to be like this gualan TV or that
gallant TV. I'm gonna emulate that anchor. The only way
you can stand out is to be yourself. And we
have struggled to find our way, our footing and our voice.
I think as soon as we nail that, and we
are getting closer and closer and closer and getting out
of that shame we're talking about. When people see there
(34:32):
are more people that relate to they might not shout
it from the rooftops like yeah, I was I had
this issue in libraries, but they know it, they feel it,
they hear it, they relate to it. And if we
are speaking about it so openly and freely, I think
that is a freedom we now have that we didn't
have before. That we relish and having that taken away
again is not something we are interested in at all.
(34:55):
So I appreciate what you're saying about our voices and
lending to through the conversations going on out there, But
the type of conversations we want to have now at
this stage in our lives and careers are not happening
on network news.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
All right, And Martin's Got one and I see you
in front two.
Speaker 12 (35:15):
Hi Tej and Hi Amy. I'm Kyla. I'm not a
Jewish mom, but I am a divorcee and I can
relate in a lot of ways. The first part is
the comment, which is a quote from Obrah where she
says there's no wrong roads in life, that everything had
to happen a reason in life, for a reason for
you to get to where you are. So you might
take the wrong career, you might be in the wrong relationship,
(35:37):
but you had to kind of go on that path
to be where you are. So although maybe ideally you
didn't want to go in this direction, but I feel
like if it didn't go this way, you probably wouldn't
be here right now. The second but my question is, though,
do you feel like proximity has a lot to do
with relationships and especially as we get older in life,
when you start realizing who you really are and what
(35:57):
you have in common with people connecting with someone who
has a similar background or has a similar you see
where I'm going with this question.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
We've said this so many times that if we met
in our twenties, we would have hated each other. We
met in our thirties, maybe we wouldn't have hit it off,
but she and I have. You wouldn't believe the trajectories
of our lives and careers that are so paralleled. We
from where how we grew up, where we grew up schools,
we went to the paths that we took to go
(36:27):
from this market to that market to cable news to
network news and ended up in the same spot. The
parallels were just unreal.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
And a blackmail version of me.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
We'll edit that out as well, But that sounds yeah,
I know she said that before. I do believe that
timing is absolutely everything. And I wasn't ready for her
or this relationship ten years ago. I was wasn't ready
(37:01):
to receive a lot of the help she was giving
me when we started working there. I just wasn't there.
So to anybody. And again, you live enough life, you
know this and understand it. Sure, proximity can have a
lot to do with it. But we had so much
in common, and so many things in our lives had
to happen exactly the way they did before we ever
(37:23):
met for us to end up in this position. Our
second marriages, both of us. This is freaky. This will oh,
this is so free, This is freaky. We didn't know
each other in twenty ten, but we got both of
us individually, got married, didn't know each other, got married
two weeks and two days apart in twenty ten, didn't
(37:48):
know each other, but both of our weddings took place
two weeks and two days apart. Both of our divorces,
and the ends of our marriages took place three weeks
apart all those years later, so weird the exact same now,
(38:09):
some people universe talking to you, sending you a certainty.
You don't believe that. I believe in that, and I understand.
I know better now, I've lived enough to know when
the universe is giving you every signal. She likes to
call it, what you say, a lighted runway, lighter runway.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Just as we were realizing how we were feeling, ABC
was sending us every week to just these unbelievable destinations
doing all of these things together. I was like, how
I've never been sent around the world with one person
for a solid eight months straight. Right when all of
this was happening, it just felt like it felt like
a lighted runway. It really did.
Speaker 10 (38:49):
It was.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
It was a bizarre thing. But I do agree that
when you can find somebody that it's just easy with.
Not to say we don't fight, but we can be
silly together and we don't judge each other and we
like the same sh that makes it so much easier.
You don't have to be like that, but it's just
it's nice to just be able to fully.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Be yourself and we are we going to have to
write there was somebody you were pointing to.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
In this moment.
Speaker 8 (39:17):
How you feel right now after sharing it?
Speaker 11 (39:19):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Lighter? I mean he was so nervous before we came
on the stage. I was a little I've never seen
you so nervous, like genuinely, but how do you feel now?
I feel lighter, you.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Know, Mann? I was to be honest. We rode here
with my daughter, Sabine in the car with us, and
she actually said to me, yeah, you why are you
so nervous? And I asked, have you seen me nervous before?
She says she couldn't really come up with said maybe
one other time. And I was so nervous, because guys,
(39:53):
we are this is the first time for two people
who have spent twenty five plus your careers being in
front of people. This is the first time that we've
come face to face with an audience. That's a little
nerve wracking, you don't know. And I'm kind of jokingly
about the tomato in the back, but we always still
(40:17):
have that in the back of our minds that somebody
is after us. And I did. I said, Hey, if
this happens if somebody rushes the stage. I actually said
that if somebody, some YouTuber in here is trying to
make a point, get something to go viral and gonna
threaten us in some way, try to get we have
to prepare for. We actually did, and that sucks and
(40:39):
I'm sorry, but doing it now. And this is why
it was so important for doctor Garder to be here.
It was so important for we have so many friends
over here. You can't get to them because they're behind
the red velvet rope. But to have Sabine here, my daughter,
and to have her daughter, an Elysea in the room,
(40:59):
and what we've wanted and wanted and wanted is to
make sure our kids were exposed to us. We hang
out all the time, but to be exposed to us
and see that, oh wow, they do have support, Like
there are other people who love mom and dad, there
are other people who are supporting them. Was very important.
(41:20):
So do I feel lighter? Maybe the second Manhattan has
something to do with how light I'm feeling. But thank
you for that question. And yes, you all are part
of absolutely therapy for us, and we do sincerely thank
you for that.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Thank you, thank you for being so kind and warm
and we appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
We were given this to wrap. Thank you again and
again you all hand for doctor Guardier. Thank you, Amen JJ,
thank you doctor Guardia. Give them a closing thought. Anybody
who's thinking about their life now and the choices they're making,
give them a closing thought.
Speaker 7 (41:58):
So what we see here very quickly is that it
is not just the retelling of a story, but looking
for the meanings in the things that have happened and
understanding that everything is in divine order. We have a
lesson to learn each and every day. But to tell
(42:18):
your story, you have to be courageous and not own
the pathology of those who criticize all the time, because,
as I like to say, how can you criticize the
splinter in another person's eye when you have a plank
(42:40):
in your own. Don't own their stuff, Do your thing.
Hosts And Creators
Amy Robach
T.J. Holmes
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