March 20, 2025 • 39 mins
Amy and T. J. get into a heated debate about Disney's new live-action "Snow White," which opens in theaters this week. They take on the various controversies that have plagued the film, and ask: Is it OK for a historically white character to be portrayed as something other than white? Forgive us for this but ... the answer isn't so black and white.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey there, folks, do you have a problem. Hey, if
snow White is not white, welcome to this episode of
Amy and TJ. What is the big Well, Robes, this
is a huge, big production this week, the big movie
coming out Snow White with a character that is not
white as the lead.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You had a problem, And do you know what? I
hesitate because I feel like, yes.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
And no, it's not black or white.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
That is actually the truth, you know, because it isn't
that simple, and a lot of it for me is
the why behind it. And yeah, yeah, and also look,
I think we all agree, everyone agrees there needs to
be more stories with people of different races and religions
and creeds and background so that people can look to
(00:52):
and have characters to rally behind and see themselves in.
But I'm all for creating these new stories. And if
you want to tell stories of female empowerment and showing
girls and boys with different backgrounds succeeding and winning and thriving,
and that's awesome. Who wouldn't love that? But rewriting and
(01:13):
changing and you're just going to cause controversy, You're going
to piss people off. And I just don't know why
it's necessary to retell old stories and change them and
then expect people to embrace them.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
See that is where okay to that point, So let's
just stick with snow White. We have, there's plenty to
get there. Let's just stick with the beloved snow White.
If you change and again, Rachel Zeckler is the lead
character here. She's playing snow white, young lady of Polish
and Columbian descent. I got that right, But no, her
skin is not white as snow. This has been going
(01:49):
on for years. When he announced she was the lead character,
people took issue with Disney. People took issue with her.
She was the lot of hate was directed her way,
certainly unfairly.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
She was a breakout star, a young star for being
cast in Steven Spielberg's rendition remake of West Side Story,
where she played Maria, a girl of Hispanic descent. That
makes perfect sense. She was perfectly cast for that role.
She's an amazing talent, incredible voice, and she fit the
role as it was traditionally written. And that works.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Okay, So she comes along. Of course, a lot of
people just upset, why do you have to take this story?
And when Disney announced they're doing a live action version.
Why do you have to take this lead character and
make her something other than what we know her as
remember her as, and she historically was a character who
had skin as white as snow now, so let me
just stick with that initial thing. Should snow white ever
(02:41):
be played ever by anyone other than someone who looks
like they have white skin?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I don't know the answer to that. I really don't.
I just I don't like the idea of them doing
it deliberately to be woke. That is annoying to me.
I think there was incredible success. We talked about this
with what Linn Manuel did with Hamiltons. I thought that
was so cool. You made history interesting when you only
have a bunch of white men, and now you make
them cool honestly by giving a different kind of music,
(03:12):
a different kind of reflection on history. That all made
brilliant sense to me. This feels contrived and like almost
deliberately controversial and woke it. They had plenty of people
they could have.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Chosen deliberately placating. Is that yes?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
And I think that is what's irritating.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Okay, plenty of people they could have chosen. Here'sn't a
thought what if she was the best.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Then that's different.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
What if they were I don't know this, No one
has said that. But what if they were able to
look through all of their options and she actually crushed
it and was the best option for this role. I
do not know that. I don't know when Disney first
set out to do a remake, if they said we
don't want snow White to be white, I don't think.
We don't know that was said. Was it open to everybody?
(04:00):
I certainly would embrace if they open casting for snow
White and they said everybody's welcome. Sure, that's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I don't have a problem with that either. I really don't.
And I think if she is, and she may have
been the absolute best person for the role, it just
no one's said that. And I just wonder how deliberate
it was to find someone specifically who was not white
because they thought that would be cool. And that is
at this point, that is I don't know how to
(04:30):
feel about that. Look. I don't think that we have
to stick to exactly look castings. We know from movies.
You have a role, whoever wrote the role or wrote
the screenplay has an idea of who the character is,
and oftentimes if you look at scripts, they have a
description of what the character looks like, so I don't
(04:54):
obviously we know this was a character that was specifically
written for a specific looking person, and therefore her character's
name is snow White because as you pointed out, her
skin was as white as snow. So this was a
role that was written for that look. I can see
why some people would take issue with it, because is
this going too far? I think there is oftentimes when
(05:16):
there is a need for diversity and a need for
bigger and better and more interesting and more complete stories
to be told, that's so true. But when you feel
like it's an overcorrection, or if it's a decision made
to be woke, that's when it feels inauthentic and a
little icky. But I don't know. I don't know what
(05:38):
the decision was behind it.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Having a non white snow and white does it? No
matter what? Is it ultimately going to do more good
than it does harm in that there are going to
be a lot more little girls looking at snow White
and seeing themselves in this character, seeing themselves reflect it.
Does this widen that full of inspiration? I think a
(06:02):
little girl of color can certainly be inspired by seeing
a white character and in the reverse, of course, but
does that it help in that way? It can't hurt, obviously,
but does it take away from is anybody turned off
because snow white skin isn't white as snow in a
movie opening this week?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I think some people are turned.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Off, I mean to be upset by I think so far. Okay,
obviously they are, and that controversy has been out there
now we're talking about just going back and forth on
just what they call, I guess race switching, race swapping
or something in Hollywood. But this movie has been in
trouble for a number of reasons. Now Rachel Zegler and
Gal Goadote, who stars in the movie as well. Look,
(06:43):
they are worried now about this movie because these two
actresses have said some things that have turned some people off.
I guess Robes, as you have gotten more into it,
I guess Rachel Zegler has more of a history of
some comments that really turned people off.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
So it's interesting. Recently we've been hearing all about Gal Gadot,
so that is what I know. She is an Israeli actress,
and she has made pro Israel comments, which actually isn't
that to me controversial. Given where she is from and
where she was raised, it's not surprising her allegiances would
be to her home country. However, that of course has
(07:20):
brought the ire from Palestinian folks who say, hey, you
need to also show some empathy and show some concern
for the Palestinians in this conflict. So I get that controversy.
What I hadn't realized until I really started digging a
little bit deeper is Rachel Zegler's comments that have caused
controversy have dated back since I believe many many years,
(07:40):
because this has been a film in the work since
twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Okay, she's twenty three, is you know, so a lot
of the stuff she was a very old.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
She was young, and so she has put some things
out on what's now known as X and then had
to delete them. But yes, she has made some comments
that have drawn ire in reference to modernizing the story
of Snow White, and in reference to her political beliefs
in this country and to her feelings on the Middle
East conflict. So she's got a trifecta of comments that
(08:10):
have caused some controversy.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
First of all, those are the three things your publicists say,
don't touch these three things.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
So where do you want to do? You want to
start with.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
What, you know, what I was the comments. Let me
let me go with the specifically about the movie. First
of all. Okay, and so if people didn't already give
her much favor and our snow white fans, this didn't.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Help correct So she well, first of all, the first
tweet that I know that she had to delete on
X was when she said, yes I am snow white. No,
I am not bleaching my skin for the role. She
had to delete that. That brought a lot of hate
her way, as she said. Then she said, speaking of
the original film, she said they were going to modernize it,
(08:58):
but she said, but our version is a refreshing story
about a young woman who has a function beyond someday
my principle come. She's dreaming about the leader. She knows
she can be all right. But then she went to
go on and say that the nineteen thirty seven original
version had a big focus on her love story with
a guy who literally stalks her. Weird, weird, So we
(09:20):
didn't do that this time. She also said she was
scared of the original film. She watched it once, but
she could never watch it again. So she for people
who love the film, who grew up with the film,
who feel a real sense of nostalgia about the film,
she just kind of spit in their faces.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
So Prince Charming is his name? Yes?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Is this the right guy?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Okay, he's a stalker, That's what she said. We have
all come up with this dude, and he was a stalker.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Do you know what? This reminds me of a beloved
Christmas song that people now call a rape song. It's
you know in I think we have to at least
give some of these stories, even that song, a little
bit of perspective that those times and look, even as
someone my age I was, I grew up looking for
(10:07):
Prince Charming. I understand why that narrative is outdated. I
understand I have two daughters where we want to empower
our young girls. But what's is it something so terrible
to dream about a prince? Is it so terrible to
have a prince kit with a kiss? Wake you up?
I mean, you know, I get we're all trying. Like
even Frozen went on to say that the love story
was between sisters, not about a guy, and we're doing
(10:29):
that a lot. We're seeing that a lot, and that's wonderful.
But is it so wrong for a girl to fall
in love with a guy and to be happy. I
don't know. I just feel like sometimes we go too
far in the other direction. So that upset a lot
of people.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
So now those were tough, Well, those were tough. It
almost sounds as if and you and I have been
watching this a lot recently, guy, in anticipation. We've been
watching some of the comments and the updates and the
interviews she's been given, and it's one of the things
she does was make sure she gives absolute respect to
that previous version. Now she does, Now she does. She's
(11:04):
so careful in what she says, and that poor thing.
I mean, I know she's got to be terrified at
this point because this is a two hundred and fifty
million dollar movie. Yes, that is possibly in a little
bit of trouble because of controversy.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
So she had all of that controversy right, and then
when the elections were held just a few months ago,
after November, she went back on to X and she
had to delete this tweet. But I'm going to go ahead.
Can I just say the expletive I'm sure they'll just
leap me out.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Well, if you have to ask, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Gonna say so. After the election, she put this out
on x She tweeted, this is Rachel Zegler Trump and
made Trump supporters and Trump voters and Trump himself never
know peace.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Okay, all those Trump supporters are moviegoers. You can't turn
off half the country by Okay, maybe she made a mistake.
I don't know what she was in her moment, but
obviously she knows that was a.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Bad she did oologized later. She deleted the post and
said she let her emotions get the best of her. However,
it's really hard to unsay some things like that. And
to your point, more than half the country voted for
President Trump. And now you're asking the entire country and
frankly the world to come to your movie.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Okay, what's the last one on the Then? Yes?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
And so. Then she also posted this on X She posted,
free Palestine. I can't watch children die. I don't think
that should be a hot take.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Did she take that one down?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I didn't see that she took that one down. And yes,
she doubled down when asked about it to a magazine.
That's when she said I can't watch children die. I
don't think that should be a hot take, but yeah,
she posted free Palestine.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So as much was we talking about the movie. Getting
back to what our debate really is about, is is
it okay if snow White ain't white? And I don't
know if it's gotten hotter because of her, not because
she's non white, but because she's all right, we already
don't like that you got the role, but now you're
(13:17):
just giving us easy little bait to take here. Is
it hotter because of some of that stuff?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Absolutely? And I think you know you pointed out her age.
I have a daughter who is one year younger than her,
and she's also very passionate about her beliefs. And I
just think especially this younger generation. I sound old now,
but with the empowerment of social media and TikTok and
just feeling like you are protected by others who think
like you and you don't recognize that there are so
(13:45):
many others who don't think like you, and the backlash
that that can create. I think there's a I don't
want to be patronizing to say that she's naive, but
she's twenty three and aren't you just inherently naive, even
if you've been a movie star, and even if you've
been in the public eye, you don't really understand fully
the weight of your words. Perhaps, and maybe she is
learning that the hard way, But I think there's this
(14:06):
sense of empowerment. I can say what I want. It's
my voice needs to be heard. I need to speak up.
And so I'm sure she felt passionate and felt like
she was doing something and speaking on behalf of people
in her generation who aren't afraid to speak out.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So to this point, with her as a lead character,
we've seen this several times in some very famous and
very controversial cases. But I asked that question at the top,
is that, okay, if snow white isn't white? And I
don't think this is a blanket question either, as I
ask it, can anyone play anyone? Can any actor no
eligibly play anyone? No, that is no a question? But
(14:44):
why right? Based on I don't want to go with age,
I mean, just.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Take marginalized communities.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I mean, where right Johnny Depp played Tanto?
Speaker 2 (14:54):
How long ago was that?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Ten plus? I mean what was that? Probably fifteen?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Exactly? The world has changed significantly when it comes to wokeism.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
In the last wint And played the ancient one in
Doctor Strange that wasn't that long ago. What I'm saying is,
when we go, when we think about it, sometimes there
is a whitewashing that takes place that we don't necessarily
get the same screaming and yelling about when it But
when it's a white character, a famous white character that
they tweak, there is a different type of backlash. I
(15:25):
think folks would really understand why.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Certainly, well, you've got snow white, then you've got like
black Panther, right, so obviously it would never be okay
if there was any kind of a remake where a
white person would play anyone in Black.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Panther, I would watch that show.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
But let me, what do you think about it? You know,
do you feel like there is that anyone can play
any role?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Okay, let me throw a couple of factors in for you.
Does it matter if it's a fictional or a real character.
Does that actually make a difference? Possibly it does. Do
you care if the race has changed if that character
is a fictional character, a Superman, a whatever it may be,
an Ariel, yeah, okay, versus a real person like Thomas Jefferson,
(16:13):
George wash Ch Hamlin, that kind of a thing. It's
tough to I hate to put Hamilton into this conversation
because even Lynn Manuel admited this was a They weren't
playing the guys necessarily. They had the names, but they
were new, totally new iterations, so it was hard to
just say he's You're not given Thomas Jefferson's words. So
that's a hard comparison. But we saw an easy switch,
(16:34):
and plus you had hip hop. That's kind of a
different beast. But does it make a difference, Right, nobody's
gonna a white guy's not gonna play Malcolm X, right,
and that kind of a thing.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Use we're talking about race right now. But you can
also now there is a huge, huge push in Hollywood
that a gay person should play a gay character, and
a trans person should play a trans character, and you
should not. You know, a deaf character should be played
by a deaf actor. So I guess there is a
(17:06):
question about art too, because aren't actors. Isn't that this
whole point that you step into the role or into
the world of another person and you learn it and
you craft it. It's not about playing someone like you,
or someone who looks like you, or someone who acts
like you, but actually someone who's completely different than you.
That's part of the craft, that's part of the skills.
So we're getting into a point and I'm some of
this is necessary, and so I'm not. But you do
(17:28):
get to a point where who can play what roles?
And why I don't I don't know the answer.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
You hadn't made a good You made a good point
on earlier about the motivation matters, right, if it's coming
from a good place, there's thought put into it, and
even the appearance or the background of the character is
put into the story, woven in some way. That's one thing.
It's another of just let's make a black just because,
and we're trying to appear to be more diverse.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
That's a different feeling as a Black American. Would you
prefer to have new stories told with black characters or
people from different colors and backgrounds, or is it the
same to take old stories and retell them using like
(18:18):
Does one make a bigger difference than the other. Because
I have read online that there are plenty of black
people who are offended by this, saying don't throw us
a bone or placate us, or say you're showing diversity
by taking a white story and just putting black actors
in there? Is that offensive in any ways?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
It depends certainly on how it's done. I was saying earlier,
but I don't think it's done well. We have too often.
But Black Panther, right, that was a phenomenon, and a
lot of folks didn't get why that was such a
big deal to us. But for some a black, certainly
a man, to get superhero treatment in that way is
(19:02):
just unheard of. Look, I'm sitting here at forty seven now,
but I was into my thirties before I ever dreamed
that this country could have a black president. I grew
up not looking at a Barack Obama. I didn't have
that as an example. So I love the original and
the idea of possibility of black stories. Black Panther is
(19:23):
the best example you can come up with in recent history.
But Jesus' criminy. The problem is that was twenty sixteen.
I'm sitting here with you at twenty Yes, it was
that long.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Ago, but it was more impactful for you to have
a black panther.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Looking at that that that's me a reflection. It is
not just putting my skin tone on somebody you created
to be white.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Right, so if you made a Superman is black, it
would not have had I don't think the same impact
as Black Panther.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
No, I just don't want to see a black Superman
flying a while around just because now I think that
could be a great film and and it's done well.
If we get to a point that him being black
has nothing to do with the story, that he's not
asked a single question during the press junket about being
a black man. If we get to that point, hell, yes,
(20:16):
But until we get there that yes, to your point,
Black Panther meant more to me because it is a
black story versus just throwing my skin tone on somebody
you have always imagined to be white. Now there is it? Okay?
We talk about Ari's album is a good example of
people really thought it was a possibility he could be
the next James Bond. You know I Love Me from
(20:37):
James Bond. Does that character matter? He was fictional in
the British Secret Service, always been depicted as white. Does
it change a thing to see a black man or
any other color man playing that role? To me?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I would just want that man to play that role
to be British.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
That's it, That's all with you right there.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
For me, that keeps true to the character. His skin
color or skin tone doesn't matter too much as much
to me as the fact that he's British.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
That's a very good point, So Zendaia, I think you
mentioned her here at the beginning, played MJ and Superman.
MJ was traditionally but pale skin, redheaded. Yep, right, yes,
did that make a difference at all in that movie
To not see a white, redheaded MJ didn't mix.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
To me at all.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
No.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
So, and this is where we get Halle Bailey.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Some different territory, Halle Bailey, ariol that was all she
got so much.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
So much because there's a oh, you know, white skinned
mermaid Ariel, who is this famous iconic and yes she
was animated, but even in Broadway, you know, anytime anyone
wore an Ariel costume to school, which I think my
girls might have one time for it was the red
wig and the so yes, it was such an iconic girl.
People really had a hard time wrapping their heads around that.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
I'm looking at another one here. There's a lot of redheads. Annie.
There was a remake not too terribly long ago, probably
past ten years, Black Girl play Danny. Does that character
need to keep that red hair and that pale, freckled face.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Right, I mean, it's just so iconic with the role.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
That the look of that character goes with that. Yeah. See,
that's the question. If the race plays you being, whatever
ethnicity plays, is a factor in the identity of that character,
then it needs to stay in that race.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I would say, I feel like it's just it doesn't
feel like what is the reasoning behind it that again,
if you can tell me why, then that's fine.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
But not just a reimagining. Is that enough?
Speaker 2 (22:46):
I just would prefer another story to be told, a
different story to be told. I don't know why we
have to to rewrite.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Was that one different enough? It was Jamie Foxx playing
the billionaire in town.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Daddy Warbucks. I actually so, I saw that on Broadway
and I thought it was amazing. So I was actually
gonna say Daddy Warbucks didn't. But Annie and her iconic
red hair with a there's just something about that look,
you know what. I did see it on Broadway and
it didn't bother me at all. But I can understand
why it sometimes rubs people the wrong way because they're
(23:19):
wondering if you're doing it just to do it, just
to get the controversial comments, just to get people to
watch it. But if there's good that comes from it,
what harm did it actually do? Not very much? You know,
That's how I look at it.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Y Are Shahiti played tinker Bell in a recent Peter
Pan and Wendy, a remake of a classic. Michael B.
Jordan played Johnny Storm Fantastic Four, historically been a white character. Now,
there was an updated Scooby Doo that was on HBO
Max that Minnie Kling was behind and it was called Velma,
(23:53):
and so it was the whole crew together, but the
crew did look like the crew that we grew up
with on Scooby Doo. Velma is act actually bisexual and
of South Asian descent. Shaggy is now a black man,
and then one other character is Asian, I believe as well.
Now to diversify that crew, that's an iconic crew for
(24:16):
all of us coming up, Scoofy, Shaggy for that crew,
love Love Love. Do you update it for a new generation?
Does it matter? I haven't seen the show so I
can't say what those roles play into their characters.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
And the way for me, having a new round, a
new generation love the same type of goofy storytelling that
was silly, family fun does not bother me at all
of the If the new characters, yeah they're not going
back and doing the same episodes and redoing them, but
just switching out skin tones. That feels strange, but yeah,
when you're retelling it and you've got it, so you're
(24:50):
getting an entire new generation to see different stories. I'm
sure there are slightly different scenarios. If it weren't for
those what are they meddling kids, I would have gotten
away with it. I'm sure hopefully they can. Honestly, I'd
be more upset if they somehow took that line out.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I'm not sure that it is. So if you close
it to your point, it just closed your eyes and
everybody can imagine the crew from Scooby Doo yep, now
Shaggy just make them black, Just color them in black
and give them a fade like that type of thing.
Just putting the color on top, doesn't it feels inauthentical.
(25:28):
You have to have a good story. So yes, it
was a retelling to your point, which makes more sense
to you.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
And so I think that is what Disney was trying
to do with this snow White, because they did change
the story slightly. They did take out snow White and
the Seven Dwarves, which is what it was originally called,
correct and now it's just snow White. So they did
say it was a retelling, and perhaps in that vein
with exactly the argument we are making, I guess they're saying, see,
(25:54):
that's what we were doing. That's what we are doing.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Okay, So yes, if that is what they're doing, and
they're trying to open this up and show change the
story a little bit and have it more about empowerment
and female empowerment and not having to be saved by
a prince and all these things, and they're going to
make no ideaverse. But Peter Dinkledge says, wait a minute, Disney,
(26:27):
then why the hell did you do this to the
Seven Dwarfs.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
So there are two issues with the Seven Dwarfs. First,
they didn't use little people, so they didn't use actual actors.
They used CGI. So there are plenty of little people
who are in acting who are available. You couldn't find
seven amazing little people who can act to actually give
(26:55):
them roles, iconic roles that they were literally meant to play.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
You just broke my heart. I didn't think about it
that way. There's gotta be a shortage of roles already
for them. Yes, this is one where there are seven
there are star seven starring roles, and we don't want
you all for any of them. I'm thinking about it
that way. This would not just because those are a
lot of options, seven roles available, but it's on the
(27:21):
biggest stage possible. What that could have meant exactly?
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So that was to me, that's a huge missed opportunity,
and that was a huge part of Yes, some of
the criticism, but it's not just that. And Peter Dinklage,
I love this man. I mean he is one of
the most brilliant actors ever, I believe, not just because
I love Game of Thrones, but he's just please, elf,
I don't even get me started. I love Peter ding.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
I'm never gonna get you started on that man.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Oh he's an angry ye okay, sorry, what's the one
about the meat in the chair. He's like, you're not Santa,
you smell like meat.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And cheese, you sit on a throne. That's the one.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yes. Anyway, I sorry that will say that for a
Christmas episode. But so the other thing is, this is
what Peter Dinkliche said. He said, you know, so if
you're talking about the film and it's heroin being modernized,
the fact that you still have seven dwarves with names
like Dopey, you know that has to be questioned as well.
So I'm going to quote Peter Dinklisch there. He said,
(28:21):
I was a little taken aback. They were very proud
to cast a Latina actress a snow White, but you're
still telling the story of snow White and the seven Dwarves.
Take a step back and look at what you're doing there.
It makes no sense to me. You're progressive in one way,
but you're still making that looking backward story about seven
dwarves living in a cave together. Have I done nothing
(28:43):
to advance the cause? From my soapbox? I guess I'm
not loud enough.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Wow, I mean from him, Okay, I mean, how you
take issue with that? And I didn't think about it
that way until I actually ended up seeing his comments.
That's devastating.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
You can't modernize one group and say we're woke on
this issue. But you know what, the other big part
of this story, we're not even gonna give you acting roles,
and we're gonna still have you called dopey and grumpy
and so like. If you're gonna change the story, it's
a slippery slope because if you're gonna try to make
one character or some characters look better in the world
(29:24):
we live in and empower them, but you don't do
that for another huge part of the story, which happens
to be a very marginalized community who has overlooked in
so many ways and completely overlook them while making this film.
That's hard to defend.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
You to that even I think they did. I can't
remember the actors. I'm trying to look it up here,
but he is a little person who did some voice work.
I believe you know what I'm talking about, all I do.
He was upset about a lot of the premieres and
a lot of things being canceled because of controversy, and
again they didn't get the role in the movie. But
(30:02):
now here's an opportunity to walk a red carpet, to
be out there to talk about it and they're not
getting that opportunity either. That's that's Peter Dinklis. He is
he is, Yes, he is the one. He has been
out there. But to his point, are certain people screaming
louder than others? Are certain people's voices being value? The
answer is yes.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
The answer is yes, and certain voices are heard more
than others, and you are. I mean, I think that
he just nailed it when he said that.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So I don't know before all of this we've been
talking about several weeks. Now that's coming out. I don't
know if it would have been on my list of
things to watch, but it might be now out of
curiosity and quite frankly, I hear the movie is good,
like it's a great Disney spectacle. They know how to
put on a movie like.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
This, and Rachel Zegler can sing, oh there's talent, she
can say beyond how did you find? Oh? Yes, I
do so. The little person who he was on one
hand defending Disney because he said it gave him his life,
it gave him his career and he was able at
least to voice grumpy. His name is Martin Klebba and
(31:13):
he was in the Pirates of the Caribbean. So he's
done a lot of work with Disney, so he didn't
want to throw them under the bus, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
But and folks, you know his face. As soon as
you see him, you say, oh, yeah, you can't remember
what he was in, but he was very prominently featured
in the.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Parts of the Caribbean. Yes, so you know, he just said, yeah,
you could have tried to find seven little people, and
he you know, so it's hard to not say you
can't say that they couldn't have. Of course they could have,
and they chose not to. That was a decision. So
that's you know, there are just we were starting down
this podcast path by saying, okay, wow, is it okay
(31:50):
to have snow White not be white? And then you
start looking at all the other controversies. This has been
a lightning rod and it's coming at it from so
many different places. I have a question for you. It
just dawned on me while we were talking snow White
being played by a Latina actress, and people are that's controversial, right,
Could snow White be played by a black actress?
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Would it be? Would the controversy be any different?
Speaker 1 (32:18):
I very similar? Certainly intense, but I think it would
be intense from two sides, right. I think we are
just there's a dearth of roles for black folks in
these very prominent ways. Now, I am I would be
(32:40):
more on board if it was a black actress and
there's a retelling I am putting a black one. I
am very glad it's not a black woman that's being
put in this role right now. A retelling. And we
were talking about this earlier. We haven't said it yet
before we started Brandy Cinerelli playing Cinderella. Yes, it was
a black Cinderella, but the whole story.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Rudy Houston was the fairy Godmother and they retold it
and it came from a black lens, and so it
made sense to cast.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Black brothers Wizard of the Wiz the Wiz best favor
again telling it's a retelling of the story. So no,
I don't just want to see a black actress there.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
The music was changed, the cultural significance of it all
a shame, so it made sense. It didn't feel inauthentic.
It was an authentic retelling of a parallel story. And
I think that's super cool, and I think that's an
awesome thing for everyone to see and witness.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
There's a do you know there was a Rapunzel coming,
There's a Tangled. They're doing a live action version, and
this young lady just believe Indian actress in the American
I believe I have that right. Just her being rumored,
everybody came after her, just being rumored possibly to be
a part of Rapunzel Entangled. People came after her.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Well, that's not kind or fair at all. That's terrible
and awful. Again, I do believe that is the role
of an actor to assume different characters and different roles
and make them your own. And I think that's one
of the cool things about the art and craft of acting.
But I do think that when you do and when
you're a company and you make a choice to remake
(34:22):
a traditional story, and especially something like snow White, you're
going to have to expect people to be upset when
you change it so much that it doesn't even maybe
feel like the original, and yet you're trying to tell
an original story. It's not the Whiz, it's not Brandy sindirect.
It's that those are yes, those are very different. Now
(34:44):
we haven't seen snow White and we were going to
see it correct. I think we have to know.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
This has nothing to do about a criticism of the movie,
nothing at all. This is just this debate that continues
to happen and probably will continue to happen, that it's
okay we hate to leave a white character white, and
it's also sometimes okay to make that white character not
white anymore. It really is a case by case basis,
but sometimes it feels like forced diversity. You don't like that.
(35:12):
I don't like that. I don't like this push. And
if you're just putting a black character up there, and
then every producer, every writer, every grip guy, everybody on
set is still majority white, you're not diversifying anything. You're
just trying to make people out there think you're diverse.
I ain't on board with that.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
It's patronizing.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Yes, that doesn't feel good, but this will continue to
come up.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
And who Like we were just in La we saw
the protests around the you know, the skilled back.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
We didn't need Opening night.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
We didn't even know because.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
It was blocked off with these huge bushes. You couldn't
even tell that there was a premiere happening. Yes, all
the stars we walked right past where it was happening.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Had no idea.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Because the only reason we had a general idea is
because there were protess on the corner.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
So it's been you know, massively scaled back. And then
we saw gal Gado getting her star. We saw them
literally buffing it. We were walking by, and then we
saw them set up the tents as we were leaving
for her big moment, her big star on the Hollywood
Walk of Fame. But so that controversy was so fresh
(36:23):
in my mind because we were hearing about the Palestinian
conflict with Hamas and Gaza. But when you really start
taking a look at this movie, it has It has
been under fire for years now.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And that's too bad because a lot of people did
good work on this movie for sure, and again from
all accounts, it is a good movie.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
It'll be interesting to see how it does.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Go up for it is the thing. It's gotten me interested.
I'm curious to see it now. I wouldn't have gone.
I'm just not my jam.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
I am so excited. You're gonna go see it with me?
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Oh my goodness, No, we're in Okay, call him up.
Everybody wants to go see it. But are people going
to now go see it because of the controversy. Are
people going to sit out because of the controversy? Do
you think any little white girl is looking at this now? Oh,
she's not white anymore. I'm not interested.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
No, I don't think so. I don't think that's going
to stop any little girl. And frankly, as a mom
my girls are grown, but that would never ever say
they aren't telling the story right, Nah, But I think
there is some eye rolling and we'll know how people
feel when we see what this opening weekend ends up being.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Well, we've had actually all day today as we're recording here,
we're in the living room and we have had Snow
White on, had it playing on the original y is
the original just during the day. There's still something about it. Yes,
obviously there were issues with it, but there's still something
nostalgic about it. It makes you go just ah, I just
look up and see grumpy and whistle.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Why you work?
Speaker 1 (38:01):
I mean, there's something about it that still brings true
to your heart, makes you smile.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
It's nostalgia. It's your childhood's We all grew up watching
it and singing it. And you know what, maybe this
new movie will have a whole new generation loving it
for lots of different reasons, and us old people can
just go away.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
And shut up. Old people go away to shut up.
Now we will go see it, probably won't come back
and do a review, but we kind of want to
intentionally talk about this before we went to see it,
so we wouldn't have been because we're gonna love Rachel
in it, and then we would come back and say, well,
I'm sure she didn't mean to sing that, okay, but
(38:43):
we wanted to get this out ahead of time, so
enjoy it. Watch it if you want to enjoy it.
But for now I'm teaching.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
And I'm Amy. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Put the Guts
Hey there, folks, do you have a problem. Hey, if
snow White is not white, welcome to this episode of
Amy and TJ. What is the big Well, Robes, this
is a huge, big production this week, the big movie
coming out Snow White with a character that is not
white as the lead.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You had a problem, And do you know what? I
hesitate because I feel like, yes.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
And no, it's not black or white.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
That is actually the truth, you know, because it isn't
that simple, and a lot of it for me is
the why behind it. And yeah, yeah, and also look,
I think we all agree, everyone agrees there needs to
be more stories with people of different races and religions
and creeds and background so that people can look to
(00:52):
and have characters to rally behind and see themselves in.
But I'm all for creating these new stories. And if
you want to tell stories of female empowerment and showing
girls and boys with different backgrounds succeeding and winning and thriving,
and that's awesome. Who wouldn't love that? But rewriting and
(01:13):
changing and you're just going to cause controversy, You're going
to piss people off. And I just don't know why
it's necessary to retell old stories and change them and
then expect people to embrace them.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
See that is where okay to that point, So let's
just stick with snow White. We have, there's plenty to
get there. Let's just stick with the beloved snow White.
If you change and again, Rachel Zeckler is the lead
character here. She's playing snow white, young lady of Polish
and Columbian descent. I got that right, But no, her
skin is not white as snow. This has been going
(01:49):
on for years. When he announced she was the lead character,
people took issue with Disney. People took issue with her.
She was the lot of hate was directed her way,
certainly unfairly.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
She was a breakout star, a young star for being
cast in Steven Spielberg's rendition remake of West Side Story,
where she played Maria, a girl of Hispanic descent. That
makes perfect sense. She was perfectly cast for that role.
She's an amazing talent, incredible voice, and she fit the
role as it was traditionally written. And that works.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Okay, So she comes along. Of course, a lot of
people just upset, why do you have to take this story?
And when Disney announced they're doing a live action version.
Why do you have to take this lead character and
make her something other than what we know her as
remember her as, and she historically was a character who
had skin as white as snow now, so let me
just stick with that initial thing. Should snow white ever
(02:41):
be played ever by anyone other than someone who looks
like they have white skin?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I don't know the answer to that. I really don't.
I just I don't like the idea of them doing
it deliberately to be woke. That is annoying to me.
I think there was incredible success. We talked about this
with what Linn Manuel did with Hamiltons. I thought that
was so cool. You made history interesting when you only
have a bunch of white men, and now you make
them cool honestly by giving a different kind of music,
(03:12):
a different kind of reflection on history. That all made
brilliant sense to me. This feels contrived and like almost
deliberately controversial and woke it. They had plenty of people
they could have.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Chosen deliberately placating. Is that yes?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
And I think that is what's irritating.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Okay, plenty of people they could have chosen. Here'sn't a
thought what if she was the best.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Then that's different.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
What if they were I don't know this, No one
has said that. But what if they were able to
look through all of their options and she actually crushed
it and was the best option for this role. I
do not know that. I don't know when Disney first
set out to do a remake, if they said we
don't want snow White to be white, I don't think.
We don't know that was said. Was it open to everybody?
(04:00):
I certainly would embrace if they open casting for snow
White and they said everybody's welcome. Sure, that's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I don't have a problem with that either. I really don't.
And I think if she is, and she may have
been the absolute best person for the role, it just
no one's said that. And I just wonder how deliberate
it was to find someone specifically who was not white
because they thought that would be cool. And that is
at this point, that is I don't know how to
(04:30):
feel about that. Look. I don't think that we have
to stick to exactly look castings. We know from movies.
You have a role, whoever wrote the role or wrote
the screenplay has an idea of who the character is,
and oftentimes if you look at scripts, they have a
description of what the character looks like, so I don't
(04:54):
obviously we know this was a character that was specifically
written for a specific looking person, and therefore her character's
name is snow White because as you pointed out, her
skin was as white as snow. So this was a
role that was written for that look. I can see
why some people would take issue with it, because is
this going too far? I think there is oftentimes when
(05:16):
there is a need for diversity and a need for
bigger and better and more interesting and more complete stories
to be told, that's so true. But when you feel
like it's an overcorrection, or if it's a decision made
to be woke, that's when it feels inauthentic and a
little icky. But I don't know. I don't know what
(05:38):
the decision was behind it.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Having a non white snow and white does it? No
matter what? Is it ultimately going to do more good
than it does harm in that there are going to
be a lot more little girls looking at snow White
and seeing themselves in this character, seeing themselves reflect it.
Does this widen that full of inspiration? I think a
(06:02):
little girl of color can certainly be inspired by seeing
a white character and in the reverse, of course, but
does that it help in that way? It can't hurt, obviously,
but does it take away from is anybody turned off
because snow white skin isn't white as snow in a
movie opening this week?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I think some people are turned.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Off, I mean to be upset by I think so far. Okay,
obviously they are, and that controversy has been out there
now we're talking about just going back and forth on
just what they call, I guess race switching, race swapping
or something in Hollywood. But this movie has been in
trouble for a number of reasons. Now Rachel Zegler and
Gal Goadote, who stars in the movie as well. Look,
(06:43):
they are worried now about this movie because these two
actresses have said some things that have turned some people off.
I guess Robes, as you have gotten more into it,
I guess Rachel Zegler has more of a history of
some comments that really turned people off.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
So it's interesting. Recently we've been hearing all about Gal Gadot,
so that is what I know. She is an Israeli actress,
and she has made pro Israel comments, which actually isn't
that to me controversial. Given where she is from and
where she was raised, it's not surprising her allegiances would
be to her home country. However, that of course has
(07:20):
brought the ire from Palestinian folks who say, hey, you
need to also show some empathy and show some concern
for the Palestinians in this conflict. So I get that controversy.
What I hadn't realized until I really started digging a
little bit deeper is Rachel Zegler's comments that have caused
controversy have dated back since I believe many many years,
(07:40):
because this has been a film in the work since
twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Okay, she's twenty three, is you know, so a lot
of the stuff she was a very old.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
She was young, and so she has put some things
out on what's now known as X and then had
to delete them. But yes, she has made some comments
that have drawn ire in reference to modernizing the story
of Snow White, and in reference to her political beliefs
in this country and to her feelings on the Middle
East conflict. So she's got a trifecta of comments that
(08:10):
have caused some controversy.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
First of all, those are the three things your publicists say,
don't touch these three things.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
So where do you want to do? You want to
start with.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
What, you know, what I was the comments. Let me
let me go with the specifically about the movie. First
of all. Okay, and so if people didn't already give
her much favor and our snow white fans, this didn't.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Help correct So she well, first of all, the first
tweet that I know that she had to delete on
X was when she said, yes I am snow white. No,
I am not bleaching my skin for the role. She
had to delete that. That brought a lot of hate
her way, as she said. Then she said, speaking of
the original film, she said they were going to modernize it,
(08:58):
but she said, but our version is a refreshing story
about a young woman who has a function beyond someday
my principle come. She's dreaming about the leader. She knows
she can be all right. But then she went to
go on and say that the nineteen thirty seven original
version had a big focus on her love story with
a guy who literally stalks her. Weird, weird, So we
(09:20):
didn't do that this time. She also said she was
scared of the original film. She watched it once, but
she could never watch it again. So she for people
who love the film, who grew up with the film,
who feel a real sense of nostalgia about the film,
she just kind of spit in their faces.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
So Prince Charming is his name? Yes?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Is this the right guy?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Okay, he's a stalker, That's what she said. We have
all come up with this dude, and he was a stalker.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Do you know what? This reminds me of a beloved
Christmas song that people now call a rape song. It's
you know in I think we have to at least
give some of these stories, even that song, a little
bit of perspective that those times and look, even as
someone my age I was, I grew up looking for
(10:07):
Prince Charming. I understand why that narrative is outdated. I
understand I have two daughters where we want to empower
our young girls. But what's is it something so terrible
to dream about a prince? Is it so terrible to
have a prince kit with a kiss? Wake you up?
I mean, you know, I get we're all trying. Like
even Frozen went on to say that the love story
was between sisters, not about a guy, and we're doing
(10:29):
that a lot. We're seeing that a lot, and that's wonderful.
But is it so wrong for a girl to fall
in love with a guy and to be happy. I
don't know. I just feel like sometimes we go too
far in the other direction. So that upset a lot
of people.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
So now those were tough, Well, those were tough. It
almost sounds as if and you and I have been
watching this a lot recently, guy, in anticipation. We've been
watching some of the comments and the updates and the
interviews she's been given, and it's one of the things
she does was make sure she gives absolute respect to
that previous version. Now she does, Now she does. She's
(11:04):
so careful in what she says, and that poor thing.
I mean, I know she's got to be terrified at
this point because this is a two hundred and fifty
million dollar movie. Yes, that is possibly in a little
bit of trouble because of controversy.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
So she had all of that controversy right, and then
when the elections were held just a few months ago,
after November, she went back on to X and she
had to delete this tweet. But I'm going to go ahead.
Can I just say the expletive I'm sure they'll just
leap me out.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Well, if you have to ask, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Gonna say so. After the election, she put this out
on x She tweeted, this is Rachel Zegler Trump and
made Trump supporters and Trump voters and Trump himself never
know peace.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Okay, all those Trump supporters are moviegoers. You can't turn
off half the country by Okay, maybe she made a mistake.
I don't know what she was in her moment, but
obviously she knows that was a.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Bad she did oologized later. She deleted the post and
said she let her emotions get the best of her. However,
it's really hard to unsay some things like that. And
to your point, more than half the country voted for
President Trump. And now you're asking the entire country and
frankly the world to come to your movie.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Okay, what's the last one on the Then? Yes?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
And so. Then she also posted this on X She posted,
free Palestine. I can't watch children die. I don't think
that should be a hot take.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Did she take that one down?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I didn't see that she took that one down. And yes,
she doubled down when asked about it to a magazine.
That's when she said I can't watch children die. I
don't think that should be a hot take, but yeah,
she posted free Palestine.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So as much was we talking about the movie. Getting
back to what our debate really is about, is is
it okay if snow White ain't white? And I don't
know if it's gotten hotter because of her, not because
she's non white, but because she's all right, we already
don't like that you got the role, but now you're
(13:17):
just giving us easy little bait to take here. Is
it hotter because of some of that stuff?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Absolutely? And I think you know you pointed out her age.
I have a daughter who is one year younger than her,
and she's also very passionate about her beliefs. And I
just think especially this younger generation. I sound old now,
but with the empowerment of social media and TikTok and
just feeling like you are protected by others who think
like you and you don't recognize that there are so
(13:45):
many others who don't think like you, and the backlash
that that can create. I think there's a I don't
want to be patronizing to say that she's naive, but
she's twenty three and aren't you just inherently naive, even
if you've been a movie star, and even if you've
been in the public eye, you don't really understand fully
the weight of your words. Perhaps, and maybe she is
learning that the hard way, But I think there's this
(14:06):
sense of empowerment. I can say what I want. It's
my voice needs to be heard. I need to speak up.
And so I'm sure she felt passionate and felt like
she was doing something and speaking on behalf of people
in her generation who aren't afraid to speak out.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So to this point, with her as a lead character,
we've seen this several times in some very famous and
very controversial cases. But I asked that question at the top,
is that, okay, if snow white isn't white? And I
don't think this is a blanket question either, as I
ask it, can anyone play anyone? Can any actor no
eligibly play anyone? No, that is no a question? But
(14:44):
why right? Based on I don't want to go with age,
I mean, just.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Take marginalized communities.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I mean, where right Johnny Depp played Tanto?
Speaker 2 (14:54):
How long ago was that?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Ten plus? I mean what was that? Probably fifteen?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Exactly? The world has changed significantly when it comes to wokeism.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
In the last wint And played the ancient one in
Doctor Strange that wasn't that long ago. What I'm saying is,
when we go, when we think about it, sometimes there
is a whitewashing that takes place that we don't necessarily
get the same screaming and yelling about when it But
when it's a white character, a famous white character that
they tweak, there is a different type of backlash. I
(15:25):
think folks would really understand why.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Certainly, well, you've got snow white, then you've got like
black Panther, right, so obviously it would never be okay
if there was any kind of a remake where a
white person would play anyone in Black.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Panther, I would watch that show.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
But let me, what do you think about it? You know,
do you feel like there is that anyone can play
any role?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Okay, let me throw a couple of factors in for you.
Does it matter if it's a fictional or a real character.
Does that actually make a difference? Possibly it does. Do
you care if the race has changed if that character
is a fictional character, a Superman, a whatever it may be,
an Ariel, yeah, okay, versus a real person like Thomas Jefferson,
(16:13):
George wash Ch Hamlin, that kind of a thing. It's
tough to I hate to put Hamilton into this conversation
because even Lynn Manuel admited this was a They weren't
playing the guys necessarily. They had the names, but they
were new, totally new iterations, so it was hard to
just say he's You're not given Thomas Jefferson's words. So
that's a hard comparison. But we saw an easy switch,
(16:34):
and plus you had hip hop. That's kind of a
different beast. But does it make a difference, Right, nobody's
gonna a white guy's not gonna play Malcolm X, right,
and that kind of a thing.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Use we're talking about race right now. But you can
also now there is a huge, huge push in Hollywood
that a gay person should play a gay character, and
a trans person should play a trans character, and you
should not. You know, a deaf character should be played
by a deaf actor. So I guess there is a
(17:06):
question about art too, because aren't actors. Isn't that this
whole point that you step into the role or into
the world of another person and you learn it and
you craft it. It's not about playing someone like you,
or someone who looks like you, or someone who acts
like you, but actually someone who's completely different than you.
That's part of the craft, that's part of the skills.
So we're getting into a point and I'm some of
this is necessary, and so I'm not. But you do
(17:28):
get to a point where who can play what roles?
And why I don't I don't know the answer.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
You hadn't made a good You made a good point
on earlier about the motivation matters, right, if it's coming
from a good place, there's thought put into it, and
even the appearance or the background of the character is
put into the story, woven in some way. That's one thing.
It's another of just let's make a black just because,
and we're trying to appear to be more diverse.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
That's a different feeling as a Black American. Would you
prefer to have new stories told with black characters or
people from different colors and backgrounds, or is it the
same to take old stories and retell them using like
(18:18):
Does one make a bigger difference than the other. Because
I have read online that there are plenty of black
people who are offended by this, saying don't throw us
a bone or placate us, or say you're showing diversity
by taking a white story and just putting black actors
in there? Is that offensive in any ways?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
It depends certainly on how it's done. I was saying earlier,
but I don't think it's done well. We have too often.
But Black Panther, right, that was a phenomenon, and a
lot of folks didn't get why that was such a
big deal to us. But for some a black, certainly
a man, to get superhero treatment in that way is
(19:02):
just unheard of. Look, I'm sitting here at forty seven now,
but I was into my thirties before I ever dreamed
that this country could have a black president. I grew
up not looking at a Barack Obama. I didn't have
that as an example. So I love the original and
the idea of possibility of black stories. Black Panther is
(19:23):
the best example you can come up with in recent history.
But Jesus' criminy. The problem is that was twenty sixteen.
I'm sitting here with you at twenty Yes, it was
that long.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Ago, but it was more impactful for you to have
a black panther.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Looking at that that that's me a reflection. It is
not just putting my skin tone on somebody you created
to be white.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Right, so if you made a Superman is black, it
would not have had I don't think the same impact
as Black Panther.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
No, I just don't want to see a black Superman
flying a while around just because now I think that
could be a great film and and it's done well.
If we get to a point that him being black
has nothing to do with the story, that he's not
asked a single question during the press junket about being
a black man. If we get to that point, hell, yes,
(20:16):
But until we get there that yes, to your point,
Black Panther meant more to me because it is a
black story versus just throwing my skin tone on somebody
you have always imagined to be white. Now there is it? Okay?
We talk about Ari's album is a good example of
people really thought it was a possibility he could be
the next James Bond. You know I Love Me from
(20:37):
James Bond. Does that character matter? He was fictional in
the British Secret Service, always been depicted as white. Does
it change a thing to see a black man or
any other color man playing that role? To me?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I would just want that man to play that role
to be British.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
That's it, That's all with you right there.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
For me, that keeps true to the character. His skin
color or skin tone doesn't matter too much as much
to me as the fact that he's British.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
That's a very good point, So Zendaia, I think you
mentioned her here at the beginning, played MJ and Superman.
MJ was traditionally but pale skin, redheaded. Yep, right, yes,
did that make a difference at all in that movie
To not see a white, redheaded MJ didn't mix.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
To me at all.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
No.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
So, and this is where we get Halle Bailey.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Some different territory, Halle Bailey, ariol that was all she
got so much.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
So much because there's a oh, you know, white skinned
mermaid Ariel, who is this famous iconic and yes she
was animated, but even in Broadway, you know, anytime anyone
wore an Ariel costume to school, which I think my
girls might have one time for it was the red
wig and the so yes, it was such an iconic girl.
People really had a hard time wrapping their heads around that.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
I'm looking at another one here. There's a lot of redheads. Annie.
There was a remake not too terribly long ago, probably
past ten years, Black Girl play Danny. Does that character
need to keep that red hair and that pale, freckled face.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Right, I mean, it's just so iconic with the role.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
That the look of that character goes with that. Yeah. See,
that's the question. If the race plays you being, whatever
ethnicity plays, is a factor in the identity of that character,
then it needs to stay in that race.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I would say, I feel like it's just it doesn't
feel like what is the reasoning behind it that again,
if you can tell me why, then that's fine.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
But not just a reimagining. Is that enough?
Speaker 2 (22:46):
I just would prefer another story to be told, a
different story to be told. I don't know why we
have to to rewrite.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Was that one different enough? It was Jamie Foxx playing
the billionaire in town.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Daddy Warbucks. I actually so, I saw that on Broadway
and I thought it was amazing. So I was actually
gonna say Daddy Warbucks didn't. But Annie and her iconic
red hair with a there's just something about that look,
you know what. I did see it on Broadway and
it didn't bother me at all. But I can understand
why it sometimes rubs people the wrong way because they're
(23:19):
wondering if you're doing it just to do it, just
to get the controversial comments, just to get people to
watch it. But if there's good that comes from it,
what harm did it actually do? Not very much? You know,
That's how I look at it.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Y Are Shahiti played tinker Bell in a recent Peter
Pan and Wendy, a remake of a classic. Michael B.
Jordan played Johnny Storm Fantastic Four, historically been a white character. Now,
there was an updated Scooby Doo that was on HBO
Max that Minnie Kling was behind and it was called Velma,
(23:53):
and so it was the whole crew together, but the
crew did look like the crew that we grew up
with on Scooby Doo. Velma is act actually bisexual and
of South Asian descent. Shaggy is now a black man,
and then one other character is Asian, I believe as well.
Now to diversify that crew, that's an iconic crew for
(24:16):
all of us coming up, Scoofy, Shaggy for that crew,
love Love Love. Do you update it for a new generation?
Does it matter? I haven't seen the show so I
can't say what those roles play into their characters.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
And the way for me, having a new round, a
new generation love the same type of goofy storytelling that
was silly, family fun does not bother me at all
of the If the new characters, yeah they're not going
back and doing the same episodes and redoing them, but
just switching out skin tones. That feels strange, but yeah,
when you're retelling it and you've got it, so you're
(24:50):
getting an entire new generation to see different stories. I'm
sure there are slightly different scenarios. If it weren't for
those what are they meddling kids, I would have gotten
away with it. I'm sure hopefully they can. Honestly, I'd
be more upset if they somehow took that line out.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I'm not sure that it is. So if you close
it to your point, it just closed your eyes and
everybody can imagine the crew from Scooby Doo yep, now
Shaggy just make them black, Just color them in black
and give them a fade like that type of thing.
Just putting the color on top, doesn't it feels inauthentical.
(25:28):
You have to have a good story. So yes, it
was a retelling to your point, which makes more sense
to you.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
And so I think that is what Disney was trying
to do with this snow White, because they did change
the story slightly. They did take out snow White and
the Seven Dwarves, which is what it was originally called,
correct and now it's just snow White. So they did
say it was a retelling, and perhaps in that vein
with exactly the argument we are making, I guess they're saying, see,
(25:54):
that's what we were doing. That's what we are doing.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Okay, So yes, if that is what they're doing, and
they're trying to open this up and show change the
story a little bit and have it more about empowerment
and female empowerment and not having to be saved by
a prince and all these things, and they're going to
make no ideaverse. But Peter Dinkledge says, wait a minute, Disney,
(26:27):
then why the hell did you do this to the
Seven Dwarfs.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
So there are two issues with the Seven Dwarfs. First,
they didn't use little people, so they didn't use actual actors.
They used CGI. So there are plenty of little people
who are in acting who are available. You couldn't find
seven amazing little people who can act to actually give
(26:55):
them roles, iconic roles that they were literally meant to play.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
You just broke my heart. I didn't think about it
that way. There's gotta be a shortage of roles already
for them. Yes, this is one where there are seven
there are star seven starring roles, and we don't want
you all for any of them. I'm thinking about it
that way. This would not just because those are a
lot of options, seven roles available, but it's on the
(27:21):
biggest stage possible. What that could have meant exactly?
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So that was to me, that's a huge missed opportunity,
and that was a huge part of Yes, some of
the criticism, but it's not just that. And Peter Dinklage,
I love this man. I mean he is one of
the most brilliant actors ever, I believe, not just because
I love Game of Thrones, but he's just please, elf,
I don't even get me started. I love Peter ding.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
I'm never gonna get you started on that man.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Oh he's an angry ye okay, sorry, what's the one
about the meat in the chair. He's like, you're not Santa,
you smell like meat.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And cheese, you sit on a throne. That's the one.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yes. Anyway, I sorry that will say that for a
Christmas episode. But so the other thing is, this is
what Peter Dinkliche said. He said, you know, so if
you're talking about the film and it's heroin being modernized,
the fact that you still have seven dwarves with names
like Dopey, you know that has to be questioned as well.
So I'm going to quote Peter Dinklisch there. He said,
(28:21):
I was a little taken aback. They were very proud
to cast a Latina actress a snow White, but you're
still telling the story of snow White and the seven Dwarves.
Take a step back and look at what you're doing there.
It makes no sense to me. You're progressive in one way,
but you're still making that looking backward story about seven
dwarves living in a cave together. Have I done nothing
(28:43):
to advance the cause? From my soapbox? I guess I'm
not loud enough.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Wow, I mean from him, Okay, I mean, how you
take issue with that? And I didn't think about it
that way until I actually ended up seeing his comments.
That's devastating.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
You can't modernize one group and say we're woke on
this issue. But you know what, the other big part
of this story, we're not even gonna give you acting roles,
and we're gonna still have you called dopey and grumpy
and so like. If you're gonna change the story, it's
a slippery slope because if you're gonna try to make
one character or some characters look better in the world
(29:24):
we live in and empower them, but you don't do
that for another huge part of the story, which happens
to be a very marginalized community who has overlooked in
so many ways and completely overlook them while making this film.
That's hard to defend.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
You to that even I think they did. I can't
remember the actors. I'm trying to look it up here,
but he is a little person who did some voice work.
I believe you know what I'm talking about, all I do.
He was upset about a lot of the premieres and
a lot of things being canceled because of controversy, and
again they didn't get the role in the movie. But
(30:02):
now here's an opportunity to walk a red carpet, to
be out there to talk about it and they're not
getting that opportunity either. That's that's Peter Dinklis. He is
he is, Yes, he is the one. He has been
out there. But to his point, are certain people screaming
louder than others? Are certain people's voices being value? The
answer is yes.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
The answer is yes, and certain voices are heard more
than others, and you are. I mean, I think that
he just nailed it when he said that.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So I don't know before all of this we've been
talking about several weeks. Now that's coming out. I don't
know if it would have been on my list of
things to watch, but it might be now out of
curiosity and quite frankly, I hear the movie is good,
like it's a great Disney spectacle. They know how to
put on a movie like.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
This, and Rachel Zegler can sing, oh there's talent, she
can say beyond how did you find? Oh? Yes, I
do so. The little person who he was on one
hand defending Disney because he said it gave him his life,
it gave him his career and he was able at
least to voice grumpy. His name is Martin Klebba and
(31:13):
he was in the Pirates of the Caribbean. So he's
done a lot of work with Disney, so he didn't
want to throw them under the bus, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
But and folks, you know his face. As soon as
you see him, you say, oh, yeah, you can't remember
what he was in, but he was very prominently featured
in the.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Parts of the Caribbean. Yes, so you know, he just said, yeah,
you could have tried to find seven little people, and
he you know, so it's hard to not say you
can't say that they couldn't have. Of course they could have,
and they chose not to. That was a decision. So
that's you know, there are just we were starting down
this podcast path by saying, okay, wow, is it okay
(31:50):
to have snow White not be white? And then you
start looking at all the other controversies. This has been
a lightning rod and it's coming at it from so
many different places. I have a question for you. It
just dawned on me while we were talking snow White
being played by a Latina actress, and people are that's controversial, right,
Could snow White be played by a black actress?
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Would it be? Would the controversy be any different?
Speaker 1 (32:18):
I very similar? Certainly intense, but I think it would
be intense from two sides, right. I think we are
just there's a dearth of roles for black folks in
these very prominent ways. Now, I am I would be
(32:40):
more on board if it was a black actress and
there's a retelling I am putting a black one. I
am very glad it's not a black woman that's being
put in this role right now. A retelling. And we
were talking about this earlier. We haven't said it yet
before we started Brandy Cinerelli playing Cinderella. Yes, it was
a black Cinderella, but the whole story.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Rudy Houston was the fairy Godmother and they retold it
and it came from a black lens, and so it
made sense to cast.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Black brothers Wizard of the Wiz the Wiz best favor
again telling it's a retelling of the story. So no,
I don't just want to see a black actress there.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
The music was changed, the cultural significance of it all
a shame, so it made sense. It didn't feel inauthentic.
It was an authentic retelling of a parallel story. And
I think that's super cool, and I think that's an
awesome thing for everyone to see and witness.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
There's a do you know there was a Rapunzel coming,
There's a Tangled. They're doing a live action version, and
this young lady just believe Indian actress in the American
I believe I have that right. Just her being rumored,
everybody came after her, just being rumored possibly to be
a part of Rapunzel Entangled. People came after her.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Well, that's not kind or fair at all. That's terrible
and awful. Again, I do believe that is the role
of an actor to assume different characters and different roles
and make them your own. And I think that's one
of the cool things about the art and craft of acting.
But I do think that when you do and when
you're a company and you make a choice to remake
(34:22):
a traditional story, and especially something like snow White, you're
going to have to expect people to be upset when
you change it so much that it doesn't even maybe
feel like the original, and yet you're trying to tell
an original story. It's not the Whiz, it's not Brandy sindirect.
It's that those are yes, those are very different. Now
(34:44):
we haven't seen snow White and we were going to
see it correct. I think we have to know.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
This has nothing to do about a criticism of the movie,
nothing at all. This is just this debate that continues
to happen and probably will continue to happen, that it's
okay we hate to leave a white character white, and
it's also sometimes okay to make that white character not
white anymore. It really is a case by case basis,
but sometimes it feels like forced diversity. You don't like that.
(35:12):
I don't like that. I don't like this push. And
if you're just putting a black character up there, and
then every producer, every writer, every grip guy, everybody on
set is still majority white, you're not diversifying anything. You're
just trying to make people out there think you're diverse.
I ain't on board with that.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
It's patronizing.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Yes, that doesn't feel good, but this will continue to
come up.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
And who Like we were just in La we saw
the protests around the you know, the skilled back.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
We didn't need Opening night.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
We didn't even know because.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
It was blocked off with these huge bushes. You couldn't
even tell that there was a premiere happening. Yes, all
the stars we walked right past where it was happening.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Had no idea.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Because the only reason we had a general idea is
because there were protess on the corner.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
So it's been you know, massively scaled back. And then
we saw gal Gado getting her star. We saw them
literally buffing it. We were walking by, and then we
saw them set up the tents as we were leaving
for her big moment, her big star on the Hollywood
Walk of Fame. But so that controversy was so fresh
(36:23):
in my mind because we were hearing about the Palestinian
conflict with Hamas and Gaza. But when you really start
taking a look at this movie, it has It has
been under fire for years now.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And that's too bad because a lot of people did
good work on this movie for sure, and again from
all accounts, it is a good movie.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
It'll be interesting to see how it does.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Go up for it is the thing. It's gotten me interested.
I'm curious to see it now. I wouldn't have gone.
I'm just not my jam.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
I am so excited. You're gonna go see it with me?
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Oh my goodness, No, we're in Okay, call him up.
Everybody wants to go see it. But are people going
to now go see it because of the controversy. Are
people going to sit out because of the controversy? Do
you think any little white girl is looking at this now? Oh,
she's not white anymore. I'm not interested.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
No, I don't think so. I don't think that's going
to stop any little girl. And frankly, as a mom
my girls are grown, but that would never ever say
they aren't telling the story right, Nah, But I think
there is some eye rolling and we'll know how people
feel when we see what this opening weekend ends up being.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Well, we've had actually all day today as we're recording here,
we're in the living room and we have had Snow
White on, had it playing on the original y is
the original just during the day. There's still something about it. Yes,
obviously there were issues with it, but there's still something
nostalgic about it. It makes you go just ah, I just
look up and see grumpy and whistle.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Why you work?
Speaker 1 (38:01):
I mean, there's something about it that still brings true
to your heart, makes you smile.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
It's nostalgia. It's your childhood's We all grew up watching
it and singing it. And you know what, maybe this
new movie will have a whole new generation loving it
for lots of different reasons, and us old people can
just go away.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
And shut up. Old people go away to shut up.
Now we will go see it, probably won't come back
and do a review, but we kind of want to
intentionally talk about this before we went to see it,
so we wouldn't have been because we're gonna love Rachel
in it, and then we would come back and say, well,
I'm sure she didn't mean to sing that, okay, but
(38:43):
we wanted to get this out ahead of time, so
enjoy it. Watch it if you want to enjoy it.
But for now I'm teaching.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
And I'm Amy. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Put the Guts
Hosts And Creators
Amy Robach
T.J. Holmes
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