August 5, 2025 • 30 mins
Would you consider it a compliment or an insult if someone described you as "woke?" Amy and T. J. get passionate and personal about President Trump's latest social media post that said "being woke is for losers." But being "woke" wasn't always considered a negative. Being woke was necessary.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, their folks sit. It's Tuesday, August the fifth. I
got a question for you. Do you consider yourself woke?
And do you consider woke a good thing or a
bad thing? In fact, is it an insult or a compliment?
If somebody says you're woke? Actually, let's go back a bit.
(00:22):
Do you even know what it means to be woke?
And with that, welcome to this very woke edition of
Amy and TJ Rope. Somebody calls you woke, you immediately
take that as what instinctively.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I would instinctively take it as a compliment. I'm aware
that I am interested in things outside of my world
and my lens that I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Even with all that we hear about woke these days,
you still would hear it and take it as a compliment.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, it depends on who was saying it and why
they were saying it. Yeah, that would be an important nuance.
But I do think generally speaking, I would consider someone
who is woke someone who is has been awakened, who
recognizes that you don't know what you don't know, and
that there are other people and other cultures and other
(01:21):
just issues that maybe you don't consider that you've now recognized.
So I guess in my head it's like it's a
cultural awakening, it's a that's kind of how I would
look at it. I understand it's thrown around in certain
ways now politically that are intended to be insulting. I
get that, But I still think, how is it a
bad thing to wake up to recognize, even if it's
(01:45):
what you don't know, How is that a bad thing?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Oh, it's not a bad thing. Obviously, the word has
been stolen, it's been co opted. It's been taken from us,
I should say those of us, in particular the black community.
It's been taken by and let's be specific, politicians, Republican politicians,
white Republican men, to be specific, is where this word
has and they have done a great job with their messaging,
(02:09):
because I don't even feel like black folks have control
of this word anymore, because in the I would say
ten years, in the past ten years, at least, the
majority of time I hear the word woke has been
all negative. It has been all political. In the years
prior to that, it was all black folks. It was
(02:31):
a positive thing. It was you were almost it was
almost an insult. If somebody considered you not to be woke,
that's not where we are anymore. The word is such,
it is thrown around as DII and it just it's
all negative. And this came up Rover. It's probably daily,
is it not that we end up doing a morning ryme,
(02:51):
we're doing our podcast, we're doing the news, and the
word woke comes up, and at some point sometimes I've
done it on the podcast in just a moment, are
certainly saying to you like, I'm so sick of this,
I'm so sick of hearing the word woke. We should
do something on it one day, And we finally got
here because actually was Trump that got us to this
point today with a very long, confusing post that he
(03:15):
went woke and I didn't see it coming, and it's
the Sidney Sweeney ad. We're still talking about that thing,
but that has people are celebrating that as being anti woke.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Which is I think assigning something to it that I
would like to believe was never the intention. But okay,
use that again as a political hot potato and use
it to then push this messaging out that yes, white
male politicians specifically have taken over and made to actually
support an anti wokeness basically in a way, if that
(03:54):
makes any sense. What is anti wokeness.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Anti woke is pro white, anti wokeness is anti blackness.
It's anti diversity if you are against that, and that's
how it's being used.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Now.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
We can say this all day long, and we are
not unlet We should make this clear, Robes. We are
not trying to have a political discussion right now. We
are not trying to get on the sides of people
who think this is an ideology or not. I have
my feelings about where it is when it comes to woke,
but this is not We're not trying to have a
political argument. All we were trying to do, Robes, And
I've been begging folks to just stop for a second,
(04:31):
take a beat, and examine what woke actually is and
don't just accept the negative definition that's being heaped on you,
because you're actually starting to think, and we're starting to
believe that if you are woke, then you are for diversity,
(04:52):
and that's bad. All. That's where the messaging now lie.
And we talk about those robes all the freaking time.
Do you even know if you walk down the street,
what is woke? I just asked three kid downstairs, all
white under the age of twenty two, about woke, and
(05:12):
their answer was all the same. It's negative.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It's an insult, which is crazy because so you've been
wanting to do this podcast for some time, and I
asked you to give me some of the just the
the articles, the research that you were using to go
back and really take a look at that word, where
it began and how it basically was stolen, especially in
(05:39):
the last few years. And I have to say I
learned a heck of a lot about that word that
I did not know, and I'm just fully admitting I
did not know the origins and I did not realize that.
I mean, even a few years ago, folks were saying,
go ahead and just exchange the word woke for black,
(06:01):
and that's basically what's being said, which is scary if
you think about it in those terms. If you just
replace woke with black, that's offensive as hell. With how
it's being used right now by many politicians, it.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Just drives me crazy that anytime it comes up, it's
automatically it's a word, it's a catch all. It is
a all encompassing phrase to represent anti diversity, it's this
idea that any effort to be progressive, any effort to
be inclusive, any effort to be anything other than heterosexual
(06:40):
and white, is woke. And I hate that we are
now using this as a word and using diversity itself,
the idea that we want to be inclusive as a negative.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
That's scary when you start to see businesses and we
have seen one by one by one dropping their DEAI departments,
dropping their DEI policies. Period. It's having real life impact
on a lot of folks, and we haven't even seen
(07:14):
the reality of what that's going to look like. You know,
we're seeing these businesses make these decisions now in real
time over the last couple of months. But what is
it going to look like? What are these businesses going
to look like? What is what are their policies going
to look like six months from now, a year from now?
What impact is that going to have on the people
who these companies are supposed to be serving?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
And I don't look, but it's not like all these
companies are very diverse when it comes to their corporate
leadership already. So now you take away a policy or
an idea, or at least a belief or at least
a declaration that we want to do better, that we
want to be more diverse. We are now embracing it, seems,
and yes, this Sidney Sweeney ad has a lot to
(07:56):
do with it, seeming to embrace this idea of yeah,
we don't give a damn and we're gonna boldface, We're
gonna look right in your eye and say we don't
give a damn about including you in our group. That
is now where the Sidney Sweeney ad. I don't think
it's what American Eagle was trying to do. Not knocking
Sidney Sweeney for it, but it's become a bigger part
(08:18):
of a conversation. And that's okay. I'm glad we are
talking about And you know what was the most encouraging
part of us doing this podcast right now, if nobody
else gets anything out of it, you just said, Wow,
I learned something I didn't know about a word you
hear all the time, and you hear me talk about
all the time, and you still learn by just taking
a beat on your own. And I think most people
(08:41):
aren't doing that.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Oh god no, And I'm telling you right now, it
was another one of those kind of humbling moments where
you hear something, you reference something, you use the word,
and then you realize, damn, I didn't know what I
was saying. I didn't know what I was talking about,
what the current use of it is, and I know
(09:03):
generally what it means, obviously, but I did not realize
the origins. And when you realize the origins, you will
think twice about how you use that word, when you
use that word, where you use that word, and why
you use that word.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah. It what set us off today talking about woke
is the President put on a long statement having to
do with Sidney Sweeney, but he took a couple of
swipes at other industries, not industries, other companies Jaguar and
bud Light in particular. Jaguar had an ad not too
terribly long a year ago, whole relaunch of their brand,
(09:41):
but they used just models that seem to be what's
the right way to put it dressed Androgyn's stress.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I guess right, like non gender specific, yes, And.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
It was seen as a as a woke commercial company.
He did terribly. CEO just resigned, so Trump jumped him
for that. Bud Light, same thing. It was a year ago,
two years ago had a campaign in which they featured
a trans influencer. People went crazy about that. Trump jumped
on him for that. He called Taylor Swift in the
same post a woke entertainer and that her career is hurting.
(10:20):
I don't think so. But the last line is the
one that got me. Quote. The tide has seriously turned.
Being woke is for losers. Being Republican is what you
want to be. Ah, that's tough. That's the president saying
(10:41):
that this idea of awareness, this idea of woke, or
at least the way they are defining is that if
you are any way in any way supportive of progressive
ideas or being diverse in any way, then you're a looser.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
The frustrating thing about it is, I think a lot
of people, and I'm guessing I'm gonna put Republicans and
some of the folks who are behind this way of
thinking that it's if you're woke, you're a loser. They
might be going up against or fighting back or pushing
(11:21):
back against overcorrection, like overcorrection like we have to nobody
can say anything, or we're gonna offend somebody if we
don't use the right pronouns, we're gonna offend something. So
I guess my point is you could still have an
argument for guys, let's everybody calm down. Let's not be
so quick to overcorrect and to be overly inclusive that
we end up alienating everybody. And I think a lot
(11:45):
of people can understand that. But that's not what he's saying,
and that's not what a lot of folks are saying,
or even the legislation we saw in Florida is saying.
Because I could understand that, I understand it. It's tough
sometimes when we go out of our way to the
point where we are trying to include everybody, but it
ends up excluding a lot of other people. You can
go too far, is my point. And I could get
(12:07):
behind that. I understand that, and that would be perhaps
maybe an appropriate lane to stay in. But that is
not the lane he's ever even been in. It's completely
all or nothing, and I don't think in any way
you operate if is that. Okay, you can't be all
or nothing. There has to be some middle ground. And
(12:28):
so if they're upset about overcorrection or even any conversation
about inclusion when it comes to people and wanting to
be a part of things, to go to the other
side of things and say, anyone who considers anyone who
doesn't look like you, sound like you, believe what you
believe in, if you try to then placate them, you're
a loser. That's ridiculous. That's so sad to me. And
(12:49):
I don't want to go and point the finger at
them or anyone else who feels that way. But think
about what you're doing and what you're saying. We're right,
you're wrong, us versus them. Tribalism, it's to visit and
it's we should be about trying to be inclusive and
understanding and curious, but not demonizing the other side or
(13:11):
demonizing someone who thinks differently than you. And that's exactly
what we're seeing from this leadership.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Was it the d D didn't they change? They took
John Lewis's name off of a what was it?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Well, they took I know they took Harvey Milk's name
off of the off of the airt aircraft Carria.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
The very good example now in wanting to honor an
LGBTQ plus icon by who had a military background.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Whose parents were military, he was military, I.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Told myself, I didn't want to use specific examples in
this because it's going to go sideways, but you've made
me think of it. There. If you just want to
honor this guy who had a military connection and was
an icon for the LGBTQ plus community, that's woke.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
No, That is showing people that there's presentation for people
who look like you or perhaps act like you, who
aren't like the others. That's important. And I can say
this is as and I can say this is a
white woman understanding that you can speak to it in
a way that I can't. How important it is to
see people who look like you, or act like you,
(14:18):
or feel the same way you do reflected in some way.
It doesn't mean we have to go over the top.
It just to take it away completely is so sad
to me.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
So, folks, do you know right now? Folks, do you
ask yourself, if you had to right now give me
a definition of woke, could you do it? Well? It
depends on who you ask. But today, most of the
time that we hear the word woke, this is the
definition that goes along with it. It is a negative.
It's defined often by conservatives as an ideology being woke
(14:51):
is to embrace progressive ideas that recognize social and racial injustices.
That's a negative.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
How is that negative?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Well, it is because no, no, no, I'm not going to
go with into their ideas, but it's that is what
being woke is today, that you embrace progressive ideas. Now
they want to go far their robes, and I didn't
want to get into that. But the idea of you're
actually embracing an ideology that suggests that America is systemically
(15:24):
racist in many of its facets of society has been,
and that black folks and people of color adding a
disadvantage from white people. If you believe that you are
wrong and you are woke, and you're embracing an ideology
that is wrong. There are many people who do want
to view this country as one that is completely fair
(15:44):
to all sides, and there are no advantages if you
are white and if you believe that you are woke
and you are wrong. That is the definition. But there
is another one, folks, that black folks have had for
the world. It's much different, and it goes back over
one hundred years. We continue now, folks, Robac and I
(16:16):
here we gave you a minute you had a little
break there. Did you come up with a definition of woke?
There is another definition of woke Roabes, and it goes
back some one hundred plus years. And I said, the
way I have heard and used woke up until about
ten years ago was all the time, you need to
wake up, you need to be aware. You ain't woke,
(16:38):
You ain't on this. It was a negative if you weren't.
I've been in environments where if I wasn't aware of
something going on, I was looked at and called out
for not being woke. How can you not know this?
How can you not be aware of this? That's how
it was used against me. You remember I had a
show with a black TV network. That show was called
(17:02):
Don't Sleep. And I remember the executive at the time,
we were trying to figure out what we should call
the show. All these meetings went out he and it
was a play on being woke. Don't Sleep.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
So I knew you were on that show. And I
thought the name don't Sleep was used because it was
late night.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
It was a play on that. But no, the idea
is don't sleep. We're going to tell you what you
need to be aware of. You need to be up on.
Don't sleep.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
It's about you gotta be aware. Yeah, and I'm asking
a question as a white girl, as a white person,
the point being if you're asleep, it could be dangerous. Yes,
that was.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
The origin of it. It was a warning you need
to be aware of what's around you. In particular, we're
going to get into it here in the South where
some boys were actually falsely accused of doing something and
ended up on trial and convicted of a crime they
did not commit because they weren't aware of their surroundings.
If you will, you wait, you and in Mississippi, you
(18:06):
and Alabama, you don't know. We need to be woke,
You need to be away in that crazy Yes, because
that word and that thing is now being stolen, co
opted by somebody else, and it's not ours anymore, at
least in the public conversation. Because there's no way I
should be going down there and talking to those three
white kids and the only thing on their mind. Yeah,
(18:26):
woke is a negative. That's terrible, it's bad. That shouldn't
be the case. That means we are losing that.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Battle, my goodness. Yes, because when you go back and
look at what the origins are I It makes sense
now that I know, but I was shocked at how
much I didn't know. And I mean, look, you, we've
talked about this a lot. Your head is always on
a swivel, and it always was a little perplexing to me.
I understood recently why your head was on a swivel
(18:54):
because there were people who were trying to take our
pictures and all of that, but I never really thought
about it historically from the perspective of who you are
as a black man, how you were raised, what you
were taught, what you needed to know, and what you
needed to do to be safe. And I never I
(19:17):
never put two and two together because I've never had
that experience as a woman. I've had other things, but nothing, nothing,
nothing compared to what I see you do each and
every day. And understanding that word now woke and understanding
you a little bit better by doing this research. It's
it's mind blowing to me how much I don't know
and how much I haven't had to experience in the
(19:38):
same way or in any only in a very small way.
And it makes sense now, but it also is just
incredibly gutting to me that not only has the word
been stolen and used politically, but it's being used against
the cause, against everything that your community has desperately tried
(19:59):
to protect itself from.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
White folks always do this to us. I said that
somewhat jokingly, but white power. That phrase that scares the
hell out of you came from black power. It was
taken from us. It was something that was a rallying
cry of black power, black lives matter, that was taken
from us. The same thing happened in this messaging and
(20:20):
language to where black lives matter became a negative. All
lives matter, Blue lives matter, So if you say black
lives matter, it was seen as a negative. These things happen,
and they have happened to us plenty, and once again
the idea of woke. So we're gonna go back to
nineteen twenty three Marcus Garvey. Did you know that name?
You may have, but he was a black nationalist, Jamaican
(20:44):
brother who was on this idea of black folks here
in America need to go back actually to Africa. But
he is considered a hero of the movement. But he
was one who so many years ago started using the
phrase again. Nineteen twenty three is the first time he
is attributed with saying it, but he was saying, wake
up Ethiopia, wake up Africa. He was trying to it
(21:09):
was a rallying cry. But that was one of the
earliest times we heard people use so nineteen twenty three,
Marcus Garvey a rallying cry for black folks. Today it's
a total negative.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I wonder what Marcus Garvey would be thinking right now.
I mean what I say, he's turning over in his grave.
But could he have even imagined maybe he could have baby?
He's like, yeah, that sounds about right. He probably would
say that. Eh, figures I could have predicted that one.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Sounds about right the next one. Though, we go from
nineteen twenty three to nineteen thirty eight, this is the
first time, is believe this word woke appeared in a song.
The song is called Scottsboro Boys. Now most of you
probably never heard of it, but it plays a significant
role because at the end of it, the singer led
Belly goes his name, but he was speaking at the
(21:58):
end and he's said, I advise everybody to be careful
when they go down there, stay woke, keep your eyes open.
The reference there was to these Scottsboro boys who had
been charged falsely with raping two white girls, and he
(22:19):
was speaking to them in this song, Scottsboro boys, be
careful when you go down there, stay woke, keep your
eyes open.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
It's well from what I understand, these boys were literally
just on a train that happened to also have white
women on it, and they couldn't They didn't realize that
they were in danger or that they could stand to
be accused of something just being in the presence of
white women.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Think about that, folks, stay woke. As you hear Governor
DeSantis telling everybody, this is Florida's where woke goes to
die and saying it's such a negative that this was
a warning to black boys who ended up charged with
a crime they didn't commit because they didn't heed the
(23:09):
warning to stay woke, stay aware. It's all this was.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You go.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Then to nineteen forty Negro mind workers in West Virginia.
They realized they weren't getting paid the same as their
white counterparts. They wrote to their bosses, quote, we were asleep,
but we will stay woke from now on. Nineteen sixty
two ropes That is the one that I think most
people point to as the first time, maybe in print,
(23:35):
but I think this is the one that's credited with
really almost coining the phrase.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
That article was fascinating, and you can google it and
you can read it from start to finish, and it
is I mean, it was eye opening, and I didn't
realize he was talking about how the white beat nicks,
the nineteen sixties folks who were in the jazz scene
trying and taking on the language the music of black people,
(24:03):
and specifically describing how all of a sudden, white folks
start taking black phrases or black words, and then all
of a sudden, the black community is like, yeah, we're
gonna move on and get a different word. But it's like,
you know, the black community, they've got great music, they've
got cool ways of speaking. And then going into the
fact that some of this language was created among black
(24:26):
people who were slaves, enslaved so that their masters couldn't
understand what they were saying, and that is part of
the history, and the fact that you've got every group
coming in going oh, that sounds cool. I'm going to
start saying that, I'm going to start using that phrase.
I'm going to start It was wild to see this
written in nineteen sixty two.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
So if you all get a chance this, please please
remember this. It's called if You're Woke, You dig It.
If You're woke, You dig It. It's an essay from
nineteen sixty two by author William Melvin Kelly. William Melvin Kelly,
If You're Woke, You dig It. I beg you all
to go check that thing out. I think it should
(25:09):
be required reading. If you were going to be engaged
in politics these days, you should read that, because woke
is everywhere, and unfortunately, I don't think most people uttering
it have any idea.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Oh they don't, they do not can I can speak
for all of those people we did not know, We
don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
I speak for the whites. But then in two thousand
and eight, this was when it became I guess it
was just a good song master teacher by Erica Bad
and it was repetitive in there. Woke, woke, woke was
said a whole bunch in there. But then in twenty
fourteen Rogues, when finally Michael Brown and Ferguson was killed,
that's when it became more a part of a modern
day rallying cry. With so much we were seeing.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
And the Black Lives Matter movement also around that time
as well, But it was it was interesting because it
was Erica Badou who said at this point after that song,
she said, you can go ahead and replace welk with black.
And so when you're saying what you're saying, just imagine
if you said black instead of woke, because that's what
it feels like to us each and every time you
say something. And that really stood out to me.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
That's a great way to put it. And that's how
I feel every time I see somebody standing at a
podium saying anti woke or woke agenda's bad, or we
won't cater to this woke agenda. It's not the right.
I understand politics as politics, but this one it feels
personal and it feels like an insult, and it doesn't
(26:35):
feel inclusive in the least bit. Look, plenty of things
don't feel inclusive, but this is you're looking in my
face and announcing we don't want you here, We don't
want you to be a part of this. You are
not a part of this. And even our products now
we're not even going to pretend like we want you
to use. We don't even want you to be a
customer of ours that it's just it's starting to fit.
(26:56):
It feels awful.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Do you feel like I have a question for you.
You that the woke the anti woke campaign, do you
feel like it was more directed or seems to have
gotten more legs based on the LGBTQ plus community, that
that's when it really rose to another level. When you're
talking about trans rights and you're talking about bathrooms and
who get like. I feel like that's when it really
(27:19):
took on a whole other level. And it wasn't even
about the black community, which is another slap in the
face in a way.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Anything progressive, anything that's not the norm, and the norm
is to some all American, white, conservative, heterosexual and if
it's not that, then it's not really America. I don't
(27:47):
owe your question again there.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Well, my question was do you think that it even
took on a whole other level with the LGBTQ plus community.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
I say that, I say yes, just because it gave
folks another target. We have another option. First, we were just
talking about you black folks. Now we can talk about
you folks over here and you folks over here. Now
we just got more groups we can we can actually
discriminate against if you will. I think that just gave
them another talking point and another agenda, and another and
(28:15):
another way to divide us to win elections. To be honest,
I think that's really all that wasn't just I do.
This is not about politicians. This is not about a
political issue. This is not us trying to get you
to go this way or that way. It's just trying
to get folks to be a little more aware of
what you're hearing, what's being said to you, where it
comes from, why, and just and make your own call
(28:38):
about how you use that word, when you use that word,
and how you feel when you actually hear it. It's
not an insult to be woke, folks, It's just not God.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
No, I hope that that actually I mean, I feel
like that resonates. Why would it ever be a bad
thing to not be asleep at the wheel, to be awake,
to understand, to do the research to understand history. There's
a reason why we have history classes. The problem is
we're not taught history. We're taught white history. We're taught
(29:09):
very specific history. We're not given the full breadth of
what and how we got to where we are.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
We didn't even mention the Stop Woke Act in Florida. Florida,
they literally have passed a law to keep folks from
learning about some of this stuff, some diversity, because they
think if you learn about how the country started, then
the little white kid that's six years old now is
going to think he's privileged.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Or he's or he's a bad person because people who
came before him are pressed.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yes, I just I don't. It just drives me crazy,
And I just hope folks that this came off the
way we wanted it to come off, which was just
to get you to think a little more about the
word when you hear it, and you're going to hear
it probably tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Maybe even tonight in a tweet, in a truth social post.
But it is fascinating to understand the history of it,
to understand its origins, and to understand its actual meaning
versus how it's being used in politics today.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I was about to say, just I'm gonna leave it
though there's only one word I can think of. We
took from white folks that they had first. And with that, folks,
we always appreciate you taking a listen with us. I'm
CJ on the behalf of my pard n Amy robot,
who has a facing her.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Hands because I know the word yes that you're referencing.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
We will, We'll see y'allsoo
Hey, their folks sit. It's Tuesday, August the fifth. I
got a question for you. Do you consider yourself woke?
And do you consider woke a good thing or a
bad thing? In fact, is it an insult or a compliment?
If somebody says you're woke? Actually, let's go back a bit.
(00:22):
Do you even know what it means to be woke?
And with that, welcome to this very woke edition of
Amy and TJ Rope. Somebody calls you woke, you immediately
take that as what instinctively.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I would instinctively take it as a compliment. I'm aware
that I am interested in things outside of my world
and my lens that I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Even with all that we hear about woke these days,
you still would hear it and take it as a compliment.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, it depends on who was saying it and why
they were saying it. Yeah, that would be an important nuance.
But I do think generally speaking, I would consider someone
who is woke someone who is has been awakened, who
recognizes that you don't know what you don't know, and
that there are other people and other cultures and other
(01:21):
just issues that maybe you don't consider that you've now recognized.
So I guess in my head it's like it's a
cultural awakening, it's a that's kind of how I would
look at it. I understand it's thrown around in certain
ways now politically that are intended to be insulting. I
get that, But I still think, how is it a
bad thing to wake up to recognize, even if it's
(01:45):
what you don't know, How is that a bad thing?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Oh, it's not a bad thing. Obviously, the word has
been stolen, it's been co opted. It's been taken from us,
I should say those of us, in particular the black community.
It's been taken by and let's be specific, politicians, Republican politicians,
white Republican men, to be specific, is where this word
has and they have done a great job with their messaging,
(02:09):
because I don't even feel like black folks have control
of this word anymore, because in the I would say
ten years, in the past ten years, at least, the
majority of time I hear the word woke has been
all negative. It has been all political. In the years
prior to that, it was all black folks. It was
(02:31):
a positive thing. It was you were almost it was
almost an insult. If somebody considered you not to be woke,
that's not where we are anymore. The word is such,
it is thrown around as DII and it just it's
all negative. And this came up Rover. It's probably daily,
is it not that we end up doing a morning ryme,
(02:51):
we're doing our podcast, we're doing the news, and the
word woke comes up, and at some point sometimes I've
done it on the podcast in just a moment, are
certainly saying to you like, I'm so sick of this,
I'm so sick of hearing the word woke. We should
do something on it one day, And we finally got
here because actually was Trump that got us to this
point today with a very long, confusing post that he
(03:15):
went woke and I didn't see it coming, and it's
the Sidney Sweeney ad. We're still talking about that thing,
but that has people are celebrating that as being anti woke.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Which is I think assigning something to it that I
would like to believe was never the intention. But okay,
use that again as a political hot potato and use
it to then push this messaging out that yes, white
male politicians specifically have taken over and made to actually
support an anti wokeness basically in a way, if that
(03:54):
makes any sense. What is anti wokeness.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Anti woke is pro white, anti wokeness is anti blackness.
It's anti diversity if you are against that, and that's
how it's being used.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Now.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
We can say this all day long, and we are
not unlet We should make this clear, Robes. We are
not trying to have a political discussion right now. We
are not trying to get on the sides of people
who think this is an ideology or not. I have
my feelings about where it is when it comes to woke,
but this is not We're not trying to have a
political argument. All we were trying to do, Robes, And
I've been begging folks to just stop for a second,
(04:31):
take a beat, and examine what woke actually is and
don't just accept the negative definition that's being heaped on you,
because you're actually starting to think, and we're starting to
believe that if you are woke, then you are for diversity,
(04:52):
and that's bad. All. That's where the messaging now lie.
And we talk about those robes all the freaking time.
Do you even know if you walk down the street,
what is woke? I just asked three kid downstairs, all
white under the age of twenty two, about woke, and
(05:12):
their answer was all the same. It's negative.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It's an insult, which is crazy because so you've been
wanting to do this podcast for some time, and I
asked you to give me some of the just the
the articles, the research that you were using to go
back and really take a look at that word, where
it began and how it basically was stolen, especially in
(05:39):
the last few years. And I have to say I
learned a heck of a lot about that word that
I did not know, and I'm just fully admitting I
did not know the origins and I did not realize that.
I mean, even a few years ago, folks were saying,
go ahead and just exchange the word woke for black,
(06:01):
and that's basically what's being said, which is scary if
you think about it in those terms. If you just
replace woke with black, that's offensive as hell. With how
it's being used right now by many politicians, it.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Just drives me crazy that anytime it comes up, it's
automatically it's a word, it's a catch all. It is
a all encompassing phrase to represent anti diversity, it's this
idea that any effort to be progressive, any effort to
be inclusive, any effort to be anything other than heterosexual
(06:40):
and white, is woke. And I hate that we are
now using this as a word and using diversity itself,
the idea that we want to be inclusive as a negative.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
That's scary when you start to see businesses and we
have seen one by one by one dropping their DEAI departments,
dropping their DEI policies. Period. It's having real life impact
on a lot of folks, and we haven't even seen
(07:14):
the reality of what that's going to look like. You know,
we're seeing these businesses make these decisions now in real
time over the last couple of months. But what is
it going to look like? What are these businesses going
to look like? What is what are their policies going
to look like six months from now, a year from now?
What impact is that going to have on the people
who these companies are supposed to be serving?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
And I don't look, but it's not like all these
companies are very diverse when it comes to their corporate
leadership already. So now you take away a policy or
an idea, or at least a belief or at least
a declaration that we want to do better, that we
want to be more diverse. We are now embracing it, seems,
and yes, this Sidney Sweeney ad has a lot to
(07:56):
do with it, seeming to embrace this idea of yeah,
we don't give a damn and we're gonna boldface, We're
gonna look right in your eye and say we don't
give a damn about including you in our group. That
is now where the Sidney Sweeney ad. I don't think
it's what American Eagle was trying to do. Not knocking
Sidney Sweeney for it, but it's become a bigger part
(08:18):
of a conversation. And that's okay. I'm glad we are
talking about And you know what was the most encouraging
part of us doing this podcast right now, if nobody
else gets anything out of it, you just said, Wow,
I learned something I didn't know about a word you
hear all the time, and you hear me talk about
all the time, and you still learn by just taking
a beat on your own. And I think most people
(08:41):
aren't doing that.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Oh god no, And I'm telling you right now, it
was another one of those kind of humbling moments where
you hear something, you reference something, you use the word,
and then you realize, damn, I didn't know what I
was saying. I didn't know what I was talking about,
what the current use of it is, and I know
(09:03):
generally what it means, obviously, but I did not realize
the origins. And when you realize the origins, you will
think twice about how you use that word, when you
use that word, where you use that word, and why
you use that word.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah. It what set us off today talking about woke
is the President put on a long statement having to
do with Sidney Sweeney, but he took a couple of
swipes at other industries, not industries, other companies Jaguar and
bud Light in particular. Jaguar had an ad not too
terribly long a year ago, whole relaunch of their brand,
(09:41):
but they used just models that seem to be what's
the right way to put it dressed Androgyn's stress.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I guess right, like non gender specific, yes, And.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
It was seen as a as a woke commercial company.
He did terribly. CEO just resigned, so Trump jumped him
for that. Bud Light, same thing. It was a year ago,
two years ago had a campaign in which they featured
a trans influencer. People went crazy about that. Trump jumped
on him for that. He called Taylor Swift in the
same post a woke entertainer and that her career is hurting.
(10:20):
I don't think so. But the last line is the
one that got me. Quote. The tide has seriously turned.
Being woke is for losers. Being Republican is what you
want to be. Ah, that's tough. That's the president saying
(10:41):
that this idea of awareness, this idea of woke, or
at least the way they are defining is that if
you are any way in any way supportive of progressive
ideas or being diverse in any way, then you're a looser.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
The frustrating thing about it is, I think a lot
of people, and I'm guessing I'm gonna put Republicans and
some of the folks who are behind this way of
thinking that it's if you're woke, you're a loser. They
might be going up against or fighting back or pushing
(11:21):
back against overcorrection, like overcorrection like we have to nobody
can say anything, or we're gonna offend somebody if we
don't use the right pronouns, we're gonna offend something. So
I guess my point is you could still have an
argument for guys, let's everybody calm down. Let's not be
so quick to overcorrect and to be overly inclusive that
we end up alienating everybody. And I think a lot
(11:45):
of people can understand that. But that's not what he's saying,
and that's not what a lot of folks are saying,
or even the legislation we saw in Florida is saying.
Because I could understand that, I understand it. It's tough
sometimes when we go out of our way to the
point where we are trying to include everybody, but it
ends up excluding a lot of other people. You can
go too far, is my point. And I could get
(12:07):
behind that. I understand that, and that would be perhaps
maybe an appropriate lane to stay in. But that is
not the lane he's ever even been in. It's completely
all or nothing, and I don't think in any way
you operate if is that. Okay, you can't be all
or nothing. There has to be some middle ground. And
(12:28):
so if they're upset about overcorrection or even any conversation
about inclusion when it comes to people and wanting to
be a part of things, to go to the other
side of things and say, anyone who considers anyone who
doesn't look like you, sound like you, believe what you
believe in, if you try to then placate them, you're
a loser. That's ridiculous. That's so sad to me. And
(12:49):
I don't want to go and point the finger at
them or anyone else who feels that way. But think
about what you're doing and what you're saying. We're right,
you're wrong, us versus them. Tribalism, it's to visit and
it's we should be about trying to be inclusive and
understanding and curious, but not demonizing the other side or
(13:11):
demonizing someone who thinks differently than you. And that's exactly
what we're seeing from this leadership.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Was it the d D didn't they change? They took
John Lewis's name off of a what was it?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Well, they took I know they took Harvey Milk's name
off of the off of the airt aircraft Carria.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
The very good example now in wanting to honor an
LGBTQ plus icon by who had a military background.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Whose parents were military, he was military, I.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Told myself, I didn't want to use specific examples in
this because it's going to go sideways, but you've made
me think of it. There. If you just want to
honor this guy who had a military connection and was
an icon for the LGBTQ plus community, that's woke.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
No, That is showing people that there's presentation for people
who look like you or perhaps act like you, who
aren't like the others. That's important. And I can say
this is as and I can say this is a
white woman understanding that you can speak to it in
a way that I can't. How important it is to
see people who look like you, or act like you,
(14:18):
or feel the same way you do reflected in some way.
It doesn't mean we have to go over the top.
It just to take it away completely is so sad
to me.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
So, folks, do you know right now? Folks, do you
ask yourself, if you had to right now give me
a definition of woke, could you do it? Well? It
depends on who you ask. But today, most of the
time that we hear the word woke, this is the
definition that goes along with it. It is a negative.
It's defined often by conservatives as an ideology being woke
(14:51):
is to embrace progressive ideas that recognize social and racial injustices.
That's a negative.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
How is that negative?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Well, it is because no, no, no, I'm not going to
go with into their ideas, but it's that is what
being woke is today, that you embrace progressive ideas. Now
they want to go far their robes, and I didn't
want to get into that. But the idea of you're
actually embracing an ideology that suggests that America is systemically
(15:24):
racist in many of its facets of society has been,
and that black folks and people of color adding a
disadvantage from white people. If you believe that you are
wrong and you are woke, and you're embracing an ideology
that is wrong. There are many people who do want
to view this country as one that is completely fair
(15:44):
to all sides, and there are no advantages if you
are white and if you believe that you are woke
and you are wrong. That is the definition. But there
is another one, folks, that black folks have had for
the world. It's much different, and it goes back over
one hundred years. We continue now, folks, Robac and I
(16:16):
here we gave you a minute you had a little
break there. Did you come up with a definition of woke?
There is another definition of woke Roabes, and it goes
back some one hundred plus years. And I said, the
way I have heard and used woke up until about
ten years ago was all the time, you need to
wake up, you need to be aware. You ain't woke,
(16:38):
You ain't on this. It was a negative if you weren't.
I've been in environments where if I wasn't aware of
something going on, I was looked at and called out
for not being woke. How can you not know this?
How can you not be aware of this? That's how
it was used against me. You remember I had a
show with a black TV network. That show was called
(17:02):
Don't Sleep. And I remember the executive at the time,
we were trying to figure out what we should call
the show. All these meetings went out he and it
was a play on being woke. Don't Sleep.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
So I knew you were on that show. And I
thought the name don't Sleep was used because it was
late night.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
It was a play on that. But no, the idea
is don't sleep. We're going to tell you what you
need to be aware of. You need to be up on.
Don't sleep.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
It's about you gotta be aware. Yeah, and I'm asking
a question as a white girl, as a white person,
the point being if you're asleep, it could be dangerous. Yes,
that was.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
The origin of it. It was a warning you need
to be aware of what's around you. In particular, we're
going to get into it here in the South where
some boys were actually falsely accused of doing something and
ended up on trial and convicted of a crime they
did not commit because they weren't aware of their surroundings.
If you will, you wait, you and in Mississippi, you
(18:06):
and Alabama, you don't know. We need to be woke,
You need to be away in that crazy Yes, because
that word and that thing is now being stolen, co
opted by somebody else, and it's not ours anymore, at
least in the public conversation. Because there's no way I
should be going down there and talking to those three
white kids and the only thing on their mind. Yeah,
(18:26):
woke is a negative. That's terrible, it's bad. That shouldn't
be the case. That means we are losing that.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Battle, my goodness. Yes, because when you go back and
look at what the origins are I It makes sense
now that I know, but I was shocked at how
much I didn't know. And I mean, look, you, we've
talked about this a lot. Your head is always on
a swivel, and it always was a little perplexing to me.
I understood recently why your head was on a swivel
(18:54):
because there were people who were trying to take our
pictures and all of that, but I never really thought
about it historically from the perspective of who you are
as a black man, how you were raised, what you
were taught, what you needed to know, and what you
needed to do to be safe. And I never I
(19:17):
never put two and two together because I've never had
that experience as a woman. I've had other things, but nothing, nothing,
nothing compared to what I see you do each and
every day. And understanding that word now woke and understanding
you a little bit better by doing this research. It's
it's mind blowing to me how much I don't know
and how much I haven't had to experience in the
(19:38):
same way or in any only in a very small way.
And it makes sense now, but it also is just
incredibly gutting to me that not only has the word
been stolen and used politically, but it's being used against
the cause, against everything that your community has desperately tried
(19:59):
to protect itself from.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
White folks always do this to us. I said that
somewhat jokingly, but white power. That phrase that scares the
hell out of you came from black power. It was
taken from us. It was something that was a rallying
cry of black power, black lives matter, that was taken
from us. The same thing happened in this messaging and
(20:20):
language to where black lives matter became a negative. All
lives matter, Blue lives matter, So if you say black
lives matter, it was seen as a negative. These things happen,
and they have happened to us plenty, and once again
the idea of woke. So we're gonna go back to
nineteen twenty three Marcus Garvey. Did you know that name?
You may have, but he was a black nationalist, Jamaican
(20:44):
brother who was on this idea of black folks here
in America need to go back actually to Africa. But
he is considered a hero of the movement. But he
was one who so many years ago started using the
phrase again. Nineteen twenty three is the first time he
is attributed with saying it, but he was saying, wake
up Ethiopia, wake up Africa. He was trying to it
(21:09):
was a rallying cry. But that was one of the
earliest times we heard people use so nineteen twenty three,
Marcus Garvey a rallying cry for black folks. Today it's
a total negative.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I wonder what Marcus Garvey would be thinking right now.
I mean what I say, he's turning over in his grave.
But could he have even imagined maybe he could have baby?
He's like, yeah, that sounds about right. He probably would
say that. Eh, figures I could have predicted that one.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Sounds about right the next one. Though, we go from
nineteen twenty three to nineteen thirty eight, this is the
first time, is believe this word woke appeared in a song.
The song is called Scottsboro Boys. Now most of you
probably never heard of it, but it plays a significant
role because at the end of it, the singer led
Belly goes his name, but he was speaking at the
(21:58):
end and he's said, I advise everybody to be careful
when they go down there, stay woke, keep your eyes open.
The reference there was to these Scottsboro boys who had
been charged falsely with raping two white girls, and he
(22:19):
was speaking to them in this song, Scottsboro boys, be
careful when you go down there, stay woke, keep your
eyes open.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
It's well from what I understand, these boys were literally
just on a train that happened to also have white
women on it, and they couldn't They didn't realize that
they were in danger or that they could stand to
be accused of something just being in the presence of
white women.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Think about that, folks, stay woke. As you hear Governor
DeSantis telling everybody, this is Florida's where woke goes to
die and saying it's such a negative that this was
a warning to black boys who ended up charged with
a crime they didn't commit because they didn't heed the
(23:09):
warning to stay woke, stay aware. It's all this was.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You go.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Then to nineteen forty Negro mind workers in West Virginia.
They realized they weren't getting paid the same as their
white counterparts. They wrote to their bosses, quote, we were asleep,
but we will stay woke from now on. Nineteen sixty
two ropes That is the one that I think most
people point to as the first time, maybe in print,
(23:35):
but I think this is the one that's credited with
really almost coining the phrase.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
That article was fascinating, and you can google it and
you can read it from start to finish, and it
is I mean, it was eye opening, and I didn't
realize he was talking about how the white beat nicks,
the nineteen sixties folks who were in the jazz scene
trying and taking on the language the music of black people,
(24:03):
and specifically describing how all of a sudden, white folks
start taking black phrases or black words, and then all
of a sudden, the black community is like, yeah, we're
gonna move on and get a different word. But it's like,
you know, the black community, they've got great music, they've
got cool ways of speaking. And then going into the
fact that some of this language was created among black
(24:26):
people who were slaves, enslaved so that their masters couldn't
understand what they were saying, and that is part of
the history, and the fact that you've got every group
coming in going oh, that sounds cool. I'm going to
start saying that, I'm going to start using that phrase.
I'm going to start It was wild to see this
written in nineteen sixty two.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
So if you all get a chance this, please please
remember this. It's called if You're Woke, You dig It.
If You're woke, You dig It. It's an essay from
nineteen sixty two by author William Melvin Kelly. William Melvin Kelly,
If You're Woke, You dig It. I beg you all
to go check that thing out. I think it should
(25:09):
be required reading. If you were going to be engaged
in politics these days, you should read that, because woke
is everywhere, and unfortunately, I don't think most people uttering
it have any idea.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Oh they don't, they do not can I can speak
for all of those people we did not know, We
don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
I speak for the whites. But then in two thousand
and eight, this was when it became I guess it
was just a good song master teacher by Erica Bad
and it was repetitive in there. Woke, woke, woke was
said a whole bunch in there. But then in twenty
fourteen Rogues, when finally Michael Brown and Ferguson was killed,
that's when it became more a part of a modern
day rallying cry. With so much we were seeing.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
And the Black Lives Matter movement also around that time
as well, But it was it was interesting because it
was Erica Badou who said at this point after that song,
she said, you can go ahead and replace welk with black.
And so when you're saying what you're saying, just imagine
if you said black instead of woke, because that's what
it feels like to us each and every time you
say something. And that really stood out to me.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
That's a great way to put it. And that's how
I feel every time I see somebody standing at a
podium saying anti woke or woke agenda's bad, or we
won't cater to this woke agenda. It's not the right.
I understand politics as politics, but this one it feels
personal and it feels like an insult, and it doesn't
(26:35):
feel inclusive in the least bit. Look, plenty of things
don't feel inclusive, but this is you're looking in my
face and announcing we don't want you here, We don't
want you to be a part of this. You are
not a part of this. And even our products now
we're not even going to pretend like we want you
to use. We don't even want you to be a
customer of ours that it's just it's starting to fit.
(26:56):
It feels awful.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Do you feel like I have a question for you.
You that the woke the anti woke campaign, do you
feel like it was more directed or seems to have
gotten more legs based on the LGBTQ plus community, that
that's when it really rose to another level. When you're
talking about trans rights and you're talking about bathrooms and
who get like. I feel like that's when it really
(27:19):
took on a whole other level. And it wasn't even
about the black community, which is another slap in the
face in a way.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Anything progressive, anything that's not the norm, and the norm
is to some all American, white, conservative, heterosexual and if
it's not that, then it's not really America. I don't
(27:47):
owe your question again there.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Well, my question was do you think that it even
took on a whole other level with the LGBTQ plus community.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
I say that, I say yes, just because it gave
folks another target. We have another option. First, we were just
talking about you black folks. Now we can talk about
you folks over here and you folks over here. Now
we just got more groups we can we can actually
discriminate against if you will. I think that just gave
them another talking point and another agenda, and another and
(28:15):
another way to divide us to win elections. To be honest,
I think that's really all that wasn't just I do.
This is not about politicians. This is not about a
political issue. This is not us trying to get you
to go this way or that way. It's just trying
to get folks to be a little more aware of
what you're hearing, what's being said to you, where it
comes from, why, and just and make your own call
(28:38):
about how you use that word, when you use that word,
and how you feel when you actually hear it. It's
not an insult to be woke, folks, It's just not God.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
No, I hope that that actually I mean, I feel
like that resonates. Why would it ever be a bad
thing to not be asleep at the wheel, to be awake,
to understand, to do the research to understand history. There's
a reason why we have history classes. The problem is
we're not taught history. We're taught white history. We're taught
(29:09):
very specific history. We're not given the full breadth of
what and how we got to where we are.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
We didn't even mention the Stop Woke Act in Florida. Florida,
they literally have passed a law to keep folks from
learning about some of this stuff, some diversity, because they
think if you learn about how the country started, then
the little white kid that's six years old now is
going to think he's privileged.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Or he's or he's a bad person because people who
came before him are pressed.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yes, I just I don't. It just drives me crazy,
And I just hope folks that this came off the
way we wanted it to come off, which was just
to get you to think a little more about the
word when you hear it, and you're going to hear
it probably tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Maybe even tonight in a tweet, in a truth social post.
But it is fascinating to understand the history of it,
to understand its origins, and to understand its actual meaning
versus how it's being used in politics today.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I was about to say, just I'm gonna leave it
though there's only one word I can think of. We
took from white folks that they had first. And with that, folks,
we always appreciate you taking a listen with us. I'm
CJ on the behalf of my pard n Amy robot,
who has a facing her.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Hands because I know the word yes that you're referencing.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
We will, We'll see y'allsoo
Hosts And Creators
Amy Robach
T.J. Holmes
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