October 7, 2025 • 37 mins
Adrianne's home of Tulare County has the highest rate of chronically unsheltered homelessness in America, with over 2,500 people experiencing homelessness in a county of 484,000. Despite not wanting to take action, Adrianne felt convicted that she must and her nonprofit Salt + Light built The Neighborhood Village, a brand-new community of 50 housing units with onsite whole-person care. Community changes everything and teaches all of us to love each other better.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
People are literally starving on the streets of Tilarrian Vicelia.
We started feeding people in the streets and it was
a game changer. It taught us what we needed to
know about people experiencing homelessness. But the back of your mind, meanwhile,
I got the wheels turn.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
On this village to build a village, right.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
And I needed a movement because I needed support right
in a lot of ways. Money, volunteers, all those things I.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Talk about a village, those are houses, houses, a development. Yes,
this is not cheap.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
No, it wasn't cheap. I say this a lot, and
I still think it's true that, Yes, our work is around,
you know, homelessness. But I always say, this is just
my sneaky little way to teach people to love each
other better.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father,
I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in
Inner City Memphis. And that last part, somehow it led
to an oscar for the film about our team. That
movie's called Undefeated. I believe our country's problems will never
(01:04):
be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice
suits using big words that really nobody ever uses on
CNN and Fox, but rather by an army of normal folks.
That's us, just you and me deciding, Hey, you know what,
maybe I can help. That's what Adrianne Hillman, the voice
you just start, has done. Adrianne is the founder of
(01:27):
Salt and Light, which lives in community with people experiencing homelessness,
both figuratively and literally. They built what's called the Neighborhood
Village with fifty homes for people experiencing homelessness and three
homes for missional residents. Because community, well, as she teaches us,
(01:51):
community changes everything. I cannot wait for you to meet
Adrianne right after these brief messages from our general sponsors.
Adrian Adrian Adrian Adrian, Adrian, Adrian Adrianne Hillman.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I am so good.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Welcome to Memphis. Thank you everybody. Adrian.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
And it's it's spelled A d R A N N E,
which feels like you know, Rockies Adrian, but it's Adrian.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Did I there's an A D R I A.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Mom?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Why didn't you just name me Adrian, like seriously would
have been Adrianne. Yes, I spent half my life correcting people.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Okay, well, and you corrected me before we went on air,
and the first thing out of my mouth.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I screwed it up.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
My husband called me that for a long time.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
He got it.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Adrianne is here. She is the founder and CEO of
Salt and Light. It's from the So.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
What is it?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Delia vice Elia.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Vadelia Vicealia.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
That's right, I did it, all right, Founder and CEO
of Salt Light from Delia with an s California. We
can't wait to tell you your story. It's only everybody.
It's ten in the morning, and she came from California.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I was supposed to fly in last night.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
So now you're on a six am or something.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, I got to be on the Red Eye.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I got super fun to stay in the weekend. That's right,
all right? Cool, Well, I hope.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
You enjoy all right, So, uh, We're gonna certainly get
Salt Light because that's why you're here and the work
that you've done. I've seen a YouTube video and I've
read all of Alex's prep work, and I have a
thousand questions for you. But first, before we get to that,
tell us about Tipton California, and where you came from,
(03:49):
and I think it's called Tilayr. I'll probably screwed that
up to.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
And close Larry Hilarry. So to Larry, Oh, for gosh.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Sake, I know, man.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
So the San Joaquin Valley I said that, right, although
expelled Joa Quinn. So I'm not Spanish clearly. So give
us a little background about you. Where are you from,
how you grew up, kind of establish who you are
as a human being.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
All right. I grew up in the middle of a
cornfield in Tipton, California. So Tipton is at most has
a thousand people, maybe pretty spread out, it's that's right.
And grew up on a dairy. My family on my
dad's side Portuguese descent. There's a pretty large population of
(04:40):
Portuguese folks in the Central Valley of California. And so
central Valley California for folks who don't know, is we
are right smack between Fresno and Bakersfield. So anybody's familiar.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
With fread basket of the world, that's right.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So grew up in a farming family.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
My dad is your family farm?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Oh? Absolutely? My dad grew corn and cotton and alfalfa.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Does that mean you were out of I was a
kid working with your dad on the farm many.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Little He didn't really want us on tractors. We had
a couple of accidents on our farm that were fatal,
and I think he wanted us to I I grew
up with three sisters. Yeah, no brothers, to his chagrin,
but I mean he loves us now, but I loved
us then. But I mean he was really wanted to.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah. I just killed that poor guy.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Yeah, it was a lot going on. So no, I
used to We actually lived about a mile from our dairy,
and I'd get on my bike and I'd ride my
bike down the canal. We had a canal bank right
next to us, and I'd ride it to the dairy,
right to my grandma's house, and spent a lot of
time on the dairy, picked figs on her out of
her tree and tomatoes out of her garden, and went
and teased the bulls in the in the pins. We
didn't get in the pens because that wasn't a good idea.
(05:45):
But so, yeah, I grew up on my family dairy
and it was just it was a It was a
good life. You know, rural, and then went on to
Fresle State. I didn't leave. I never really left the valley.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
The Bulldogs, Yeah, a bulldog who was the Fresno When
did you go to college?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So I graduated in two thousand.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
First State's pretty good in football back in those days.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
That was Derek.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
He's back.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
He moved to Fresno. He's been moving back to Fresnoe. Yeah, this,
he just decided to move back.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I could pretty much relate anything in the world to football,
and I could talk about it.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
But the Bulldogs were good. And I can't remember the
head coach's name. He was good.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
He was a really good coach.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah. Yeah, that Fresno State was worth going to back
in those days.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
You know, it was a great college. And I you know,
it's not super sexy. You know, there's no beach anywhere near.
It's not like a super duper college town. But I
loved it. I loved Fresno State, and I was really
happy with my education and did that, stayed around and
got married and had three little boys.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Your husband at Presno State.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
No, I actually so. The husband mister Hillman, mister Scott Hillman,
who I'm married to now is my second husband, I say, yep,
and so my first husband, father of my children. I
met him at my dad's racetrack. So my dad also
has a racetrack. So cars cars, okay, dirt cars, so
dirt track of four ten three sixties mini sprints, you know,
(07:05):
and so a' racing family. My dad's a dragstrew driver,
so and a farmer. So I kind of have some
interesting history.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Honestly, when you hear La, or you hear California and
you flew out LA, you think that you think you're
a country girl.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Oh yeah, but I flew out of LA because I
have business in LA. When I get back, and I
spent a lot of time in La. I love LA.
I actually love LA and San Francisco. I love California
and where I live it's the best place because well,
first of all, we're at the base of the Sequoias.
So Tillarry County is the home to the sequoias, the
giant sequoia trees, which are miraculous and everyone should come
to see them. They're they're inexplicable. I mean, I can't
(07:39):
describe just they're amazing. And so we're at the base
of Yosemite. About hour half out of Yosemite, we can
ski and surf in the same day, and I know
people who have done it. We're about two hours from
the beach and three hours out of San Francisco, two
and a half out of LA. It's kind of perfect.
I mean, it's also very rural. There are more cows
than people per capita in Tillarry County. True.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, there's more churches than gas stations in Memphis, so
we all.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Have our things.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, we have a lot of churches to yes. Yeah,
and incidentally, unfortunately a lot of folks experiencing homelesses too.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
All right, so it sounds like a pretty organic I
mean honestly, with the farm and the dirt track and everything,
it sounds like a cool, maybe middle upper middle lifestyle.
Coming up with a tight family. You used to ride
your bike to your grandparents, so I assume pretty organic,
multi generational.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Went to school close to home.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Right for miss California. I was Miss Hillarry County. That
was part of my college, paid for part of my college,
and you know, I stuck around. I was definitely So.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Would you do for a living out of college?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Right out of college? Incidentally, I was an investment rep
for Edward Jones, and I love Edward Jones as a company,
but hated the job. Just didn't want to sell people investments.
A nine to eleven hit at the time. When I
was a broker, a young broker in a field where
it was ninety six percent men, you know, and I
was twenty two years old. It wasn't the easiest to
get business, and I just didn't love it, and then
(09:11):
ended up having kids. I started having my first son
I had when he was twenty when I was twenty five,
and stayed home with them, and then eventually went through
a painful divorce. And then I was a professionally trained
life coach. I had a practice as a life coach
and a speaker, and was it was hosting retreats for
women and talking about boundaries and integrity and kind of
(09:32):
working through fear and some of those things. I had
a brand like.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
You might have learned some of that yourself.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, yeah, do It Afraid. I had a brand called
do It Afraid that I trademarked, and I utilized that
as an empowerment brand to kind of teach women to
use their fear as raw material for courage. You know,
and did that and then and then this whole thing unfolded, so.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Which we'll get to the stool. Yeah yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Again, cool life, doing your thing, me upbringing three sisters.
I bet you're probably pretty close too, if you're anything
like or at least and my four children.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Are very close.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
And I get it, but and not at all in
an disperiencing way. But it's not like that's this remarkable
life or somebody's tapping you on the shoulder and say,
go do something for the community. You're just living a
normal life.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah, but I've always had I mean, I've always wanted
to do I like doing work for the community, so
that was important. But that's not what this was. That's
not how this happened though. That wasn't even that. It
really came like as a call that I didn't want
to be frank. I mean, I've never been anywhere near homelessness.
I have had privilege. You kind of touched on that. Yeah, No,
(10:46):
how it all came to be was pretty crazy.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Really, So let's start with this and then we'll let
you unfold it.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
And I have some questions about it.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, I love pushback on oh goody oh hey, these
are my favorite interviews.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
But my pushback I'm not even sure if I believe it,
but I think many of our listeners might have it,
So I want to address it and let's just hash
it out a little.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
I would love it, and I will guess that I've
been asked this question.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
About, oh, with what you do. I'm sure you are.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
It's just interesting how similar our misconceptions or even beliefs
around homelessness, how homogenous they are really across the country.
It's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So you broke the egg.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
We'll go ahead and let everybody in on the thirty
thousand foot view before we get into the weeds. Salt
and Light Adrian Anne started Salt and Light and it
was to assist folks who are experiencing homelessness.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Did I say that right? Okay?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I was a beating with her before the interview whether
you do it. You didn't even say a word to
me about it, and I got it right.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
And it started very small, hasn't exploded like many of
our guests. And we're going to get to all that.
So folks who experience homelessness are what your work is about.
But first, before we even get to that, and how
you got to it. I read this, there's twenty five
(12:18):
hundred to three thousand people experiencing homelessness in Tilauri County
out of about a half million residents, which to me
is interesting. It's rule so you think of homelessness more
in urban areas. Memphis has an issue with it. San
Francisco certainly does, La and every other much policicity, but
(12:40):
you don't think about it really in the rural areas
as much. And I feel like twenty five hundred and
three thousand out half million is a lot, a lot.
And I think that nearly half of the nation's entire
homeless population is in the state of California.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
That's correct. Unpack that a little, all right.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
So to talk a little bit about Tillarry County, so.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So that we understand why you went to work in
it in the first place. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Well, and I didn't even really totally know all of this,
does I mean, I didn't know how bad the problem
really was. I had a really small view in our
little town. But it's rural. But it also isn't we
have you know, we have cities that are cities that
they're suburban, you know, and that's where most of our folks.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, I mean they're cities, but yeah, but we're not
talking we're not yes, right.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
We're not talking metropolitan cities. Fresno would be our closest,
you know, semi metropolitan city. But what I learned early
on was in twenty nineteen, Hudd's report to Congress said
that the Tilarry Kings continue of care. So our area
have the highest per capita rate of chronically homeless unsheltered
(13:55):
folks in the United States. That's crazy, crazy, higher than
San Francis, especially highly.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Here that agriculture people are always looking for workers.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
And so so that is a little bit of a
misnomer because Tilry County also is one of the most
poverty stricken counties in California and in the United States.
We're also the least educated, meaning the least amount of
secondary or post high school education. Doesn't mean our educational
system is bad where we are. It means that people
(14:25):
don't stay when they have a bachelor's degree or higher.
And that's tough because that's that affects systems, right, that
affects government, that affects the way we do things in
those spaces.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
So they get their degree in leaf, we.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Have what we call brain drain in the Central Valley.
And I'll be frank, I wanted to leave at points too.
I mean, I get the draw.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Nashville is sucking a lot of talent out of Memphis.
Same way.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, exactly, so you can understand. And that does change
the way the systems work. It changes funding, it changes
all kinds of things. However, we were also forty years
behind the eight ball in terms of having any kind
of structure or any kind of the shelter system or
anything in place for people experiencing homelessness. And you touched
on work, and you know, it looks like they need workers,
(15:10):
and the problem is this, It's that it's not that
people aren't necessarily getting work. We contend that the greatest
cause of homelessness is a loss of support or family,
because we all know people that are and we know
that there's mental illnesses it's certainly a factor, and addiction,
but we all know people who are mentally ill. We
all know people who are addicted, who are housed. What's
(15:31):
the difference. Difference is when someone loses all support for
whatever reason. This is not to point fingers at the family. Hey,
you're not supporting your people. For whatever reason, someone's lost
their support. And so once that happens, when people get
into the system of homelessness, it is incredibly difficult to
get out.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
And now a few messages from our gener sponsors. But
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(16:22):
fact that half the homelessness that exists in the nation
is in one state, California, admittedly a big stake, but still.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
With housing costs that are exorbited.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Well that's a big part of it, huge part of it.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
So there's an argument, and I'm going to let you
play with this. This is the pushback, But there's an
argument that in cities like San Francisco that provide basically
an enormous amount of services for people experiencing homelessness and
(17:06):
even open air areas to often continue to behave to
take part in.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Stuff that probably led to.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Their homelessness in the first place, and they tolerated and
actually work with it so well, and same thing in
some places in LA. That one of the reasons that
homelessness in California is half of the country's homeless population
(17:39):
is because the homeless snow they can go to California
and get services, and so a lot of the homeless
population is not necessarily indigenous, but invited in by some
of those very liberal open programs. When I say liberal,
I'm not talking politics. I mean open minded, progressive school liberal.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Hey, what you're saying those little yards major So I get.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
It, well, I am too, so and we can't get
into politics because Alex gets mad at me. But the
truth is I don't even know what side I'll I
land on anyway. So when I use the word liberal,
I mean it as it is in the definition of
the word liberal, open minded, progressive type thought. The point
is there is a and there's studies on it, there's
(18:27):
data on it, but that yes, California has fifty percent
of the of the homeless population in the United States,
but a big percent of that fifty percent is people
coming from outside the state because they know they can
get services there, thus exacerbating their own problem.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
There actually are studies on this.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I know I am.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I know what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
So I'm going to toss that up for you and
let you take a shot.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Let me let me swing the bat at that. Okay, Well,
there are a lot of studies that and one of
the things I learned, at least for Larry County, so
we actually did a huge study in to Larry County
kind of figure out where people are coming from, because
there is a pervasive myth across the country that says
people are being you s, it's a myth that people
are being bussed in.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
So I just I just mythologically tossed that out there.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Well, at least since I can speak for Toilarry County,
and I think there are other studies that will back
this up to say go for that. Even if you
look at Detroit, Let's say, let's go to a place
that's like freezing cold. I actually have a friend who
doesn't work in Oklahoma City and literally when it gets
super super cold, they're literally chiseling people off the street.
They're freezing to the concrete, it's that cold. But they're
(19:38):
from there. People stay where they're from, by and large. Now,
certainly people move around, but that bit about people moving
to California for it, it's a little issuy and in
Clarry County. I know this for a fact because we've
done the study on it. Ninety one percent of the
people that live in Larry County who are experiencing homelessness
are native to Toilarry County.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
So let's take that data.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
It's it's real, it's it's it's good data.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I know.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
I looked it up before I talked to you, but
I wanted to throw out the counterpoint to that.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, so that you had an opportunity to address it.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I love it. I like, I like your approach. Yeah,
I think that when Also for me, it's like, you
know what when we when when we other people and
we decide that they're from another state, another city, another town,
another country, another another, it's like we forget that we're
actually we all just belong to each other, right and
(20:35):
none of us are healed until we're all here.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Oh yeah, but we can't get into that part yet. Yeah,
that's later.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
But the deal is this For me, I agree with you,
but it's later.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Other people's children are my children. Like that's that's kind
of my stance. And it's kind of like if people
are experiencing homeless us and they're starving in front of me,
and like, excuse me, are you from Tillerry County? Because
if you're not, I'm gonna have you go get your
food in the next county.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
I know I've been.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I get all of that. But to understand why that matters,
we have to have a baseline for the bulk of
rational people thinking to understand where the.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Problem comes from.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
And if we think the problem comes from, well we're
moving them in. I don't really have a heart for
a problem when you're creating it yourself. Well, if we
can dispel that notion, we can step forward exactly, So
we're dispelling that notion.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
The second thing is, then.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
If that's not the case, which I used to think
it was, but I've done research and later found out
it is a myth.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I did do it because it's plausible. It actually makes
sense totally.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
And when the smart people on Seeing and in Fox
get up there with their nee graphics and their and
their ties and their and their big old words that
I can't pronounce clearly, how I butchered the beginning of this,
and they start saying that stuff well, you're inclined.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
To believe it.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
It makes for good TV.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
It makes for good TV, and it all also makes
for really good fodder to continue to have us separate
into our policy political corners.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
So anyway, and to wash your hands of a problem
we don't want to fix.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Well, it's also true. So that's a myth.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
We've established it, and if y'all don't like it, look
it up on Google and find out that you might
have been misled. But there is another fact that half
of the homeless population lives in your state.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
So if we're not moving them in the problem right.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So I'll tell you what I own. I have some
boys now they're twenty two, eighteen, and sixteen. Well, my
twenty two year old starts looking for apartments and what
he can probably get his hands on. The around twenty
five hundred bucks a month. Well, I don't know what
your first mortgage looked like, but mine was nowhere near.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
That almost five ninety five.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, I think mine was something like nine hundred for
a twenty five hundred square foot house.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I was sixteen hundred square feet.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
You were in hot cotton, Yeah, look at me go,
But I mean I wasn't hilarry, you know, California. But anyway,
the housing rates are insane. People are really struggling to
stay in housing. And once that happens, if someone wasn't
not already mentally having mental issues or addictive issues before
(23:17):
getting to the streets, and they, let's say they lost
their job, they lost their housing, chances are pretty good
that that's coming next, because living in survival on the streets,
nothing really is more traumatizing to the nervous system.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Adrian.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
One of the beautiful things about our country is we
have interstate travel free. You don't have to have a
passport to go from California Mississippi.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
A good point.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
So if you got that problem, why don't you get
you a fifty seven dollars greyhound bus ticket and haul
ass to somewhere where it doesn't cost that much and
they do need jobs.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, if you've got the money to do that.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
But well, I thought you were going to tell me
about the community part.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Now, well, I mean I would say that getting you know,
even my own dad, God bless him, and I know
he's going to listen to this. He already told me
he wants to listen to it. But he's Hey, Dad,
he said to me one time, and of course, you know.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
I said, does he have a crick in his neck
from going counterclockwise all his life on a mud truck?
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Always looking like.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
He actually isn't mud track driver. He's only a drags
for driver. But he has a mud track as an owner.
You know why because he liked to use the road
grader when he was planting cotton, and he uses the
hes going to say, yesterday I drove by the track.
I drove by the racetrack yesterday and I could see
my dad's tahoe.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Which Steve, Hey, Steve, what's up? You're listening.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
He's a good dude at a really hard worker. But
he asked me, why can't they just get a job.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
I'm giving you an opportunity to just spell the next
thing people will say, which is, there's chicken farms in
Arkansas and apartments for six hundred bucks. There's there's people
in North Mississippi looking for labor all the time and
good jobs where you can live for a thousand bucks
a month, no problem because the cost of living, obviously
in parts of the country much less. Why not if
(24:56):
you lose your house and your job, leave smooth?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, just move and go get a job somewhere, And
you're right, It's like people don't want to do that.
They want to stay. That's why we know that that
data we talked about earlier is correct. People basically stay
where they were planted. You know, they want to anyway
they know, but they know where the roots are. I mean,
look at me, I've stayed that whole time, and I
(25:20):
just it's so much more than a job. It's about community.
It's about what who you're surrounded with. It's about where
your roots are. And I know that people move all
over the country from their families. I have a sister
who lives in Texas. I mean yes, and also she
had to recreate a new community there in Texas and
a new family because we're all the way in California
and we love her and we get out there when
we can. But you have to create a new life
(25:42):
somewhere else, and that's pretty tough to do, especially if
you are struggling with you know, adverse childhood experiences, if
you've been abused, if you have had some sort of
catastrophic loss of family or support, and so having the
get up mental health issues which we know come from trauma,
and we know that that's what addiction is about, right.
Addiction is not about just crummy people. It's not. It's
(26:05):
about people who are trying to numb a pain.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Some of the best people are now reformer of it.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Hell yeah, one of my best friends is in recovery.
Is the bravest person I know. You know, it's like,
and we're all if we're trying to numb some of
there's lots of different ways to do it, just some
of them are more socially acceptable than others, and some
of them are less destructive than others. On the surface.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
We will be right back. Okay, So what we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I know you didn't know when you started this education
has evolved, but I think it's important to get to
the education and the evolution of the data and the
facts before we go back to where you started. To
set the table for our listeners to understand. People aren't
flocking to California because San Francisco is given away free needles.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Of a curve.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Although we think that, I know, people can move, but
when you're at the depths of despair, the last thing
you want to do is leave the few people in
the few places in the three of street things, you know,
and so while it sounds good in principle and true purpose,
(27:31):
it's unlikely to happen. The other thing is, in California,
housing is so desperately expensive that when you get underwater
just a little bit, that that teaspoon of choking can
become a flood and a hurry. And because it's hard
(27:54):
to move, it's hard to relocate, you don't want to
leave what you have. Many times, the trauma that you're
dealing with, the homelessness started when you were sixteen and abused.
The problems are more than just on a bus ticket.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
And so that's what we know now. But you didn't
know that.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Heck no, And I mean I told you already. I
came from some privilege. And the thing of it is,
I think that especially for people who've been nowhere near
homelessness or haven't even come close to.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
That, which is the vast majority of our listeners.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Right when we have not experienced something like that, it
takes a desire to want to know how this happened
with an open hand. And the thing of it is,
we can overlay what we think people should do with
their lives based on what would have worked for you
and I as people of privilege or wherever we came from.
I know, privilege, that's a charge word, and people get
(28:49):
really mad when you say it, But you know what,
I've never been anywhere near homelessness. I've never worried where
my next meal was going to come from. And I
say that not in a pride for way. I say
that to say I had a steep learning curve. So
I think that is partially why I've somewhat been successful
with this, because it's like I kind of speak both languages.
I had to learn how this happened, why it mattered.
(29:11):
I have a heart for people belonging as my heartbreak.
We'll get into that, and that's what led me to this.
But I also have lived a life of basically privilege
and had to figure out because I used to think
that my solutions for myself would be what would work
for my folks. With enough work with my people, just
get a job. Why can't you just go get a therapist?
(29:34):
You know what I mean. I'm overlaying things that I
can easily do, but that's way out of out of
reach for someone who's experienced the kind of I got
a guy who lives my village, and I mean, I'm
kind of no. Okay, well, I'm just telling you there
there are things I could not get my brain around
that are happening in my backyard, in my county, that
(29:55):
are so appalling and so shocking that we will all
people to live this way and then to condemn them.
I mean, father Greg Boyle, good friend of mine from
Homeboy Industries. He says it best. He says, we should
stand in awe of what the poor have to carry,
rather than in judgment of how they carry it. And
(30:17):
damn if that's not the best word, because it's that
probably has been one of the most singularly powerful messages
that I have internalized, taken in, and learn, and it
has changed the way I see everything.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Really, we have to stand in awe of what the
poor have to carry, rather than condemning them for the
way they carry it. Right, I will use that repeatedly.
One of my guests a while back said something easily
and simply profound, which is we can be great people
(30:50):
and stand in the river and pull drowning children out
of it all we want, but eventually we need to
go up river and find out why they're following in
river in the first place, same stuff.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Preach it that. I mean, I have said it to
people and they're like, the answers are incredible that people
have actually even said to that comment.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah, it's yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
So now we've set the stage, the table's laid, it's
all made, So here we are. You get a call
that felt very audible to you, and that was back
in twenty sixteen or seventeen, So tell me about that.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah, So I used to think that people said things
like when they said God told me this, or God,
I'm so.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Glad I just went through this with another guest.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Yeah, it actually did sound audible, which was shocking to me.
But I'd had one more thing. And it's funny. We brought
up my dad because it was actually when I was
in the middle of my divorce and I was pretty
outcasts from most people, and I remember this like audible,
like go talk to your dad. It like woke me
up in the middle of the night, and the right
thing to do was to go talk to my dad.
(31:58):
That was actually the next best step. So it turns out,
you know, somebody was telling me something and it sounded
like that. It actually happened almost the exact same way.
And I'm telling you, I used to think when people
said something like okay, yeah right, God talk to you. Sure, okay, cucko.
You know, I was at church. I was at church
and it wasn't about homelessess at all. It wasn't anything
about serving the poor.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Nothing.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
And my husband and I were sitting in the front row
and I get this kind of like you're gonna serve
the homeless. I'm like, no, I'm not. So we go outside.
I tell my husband about this because I tell him
everything that feels somewhat supernatural or whatever, and he's like, well,
you know, there is kind of a problem brewing. It
was we could start to see the snowballing was starting
to happen around that time. And I said, I've never
(32:43):
I've never even served in a soup kitchen. I'm not,
I can't. I don't even know what I'm doing. I'm
ill equipped, that's not my I love kids, and I
was going to be a teacher. I mean, I had
all these excuses.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Nah.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Three weeks later, we had a family friend who passed
away suddenly of a heart attack. She was sitting on
a board of a local non prop faith based nonprofit
serving women. Well at the time they called it. Yeah,
so it was a women's shelter, and they asked me
at her funeral if I A family friend came and
asked me if I would take her place. I'm like,
there it is. God was just like preparing my heart
(33:16):
so I could sit on a board there.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It is sure I could show up once quarter.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Huh No, it wasn't gonna be like that all and
right away, and they're good people. I sat on that
board with They're good people. However, I could see right
away this was not how I saw things. You know.
There were ways in which we were treating and talking
about people, but it was very normalized. No one was
doing anything you know, quote unquote wrong. It was how
everyone talked about those people. Those people just want to
(33:45):
use our hose pickets. We need to take them off
the building. Those people, I'm like, why don't we get
a shower truck? Well we can't afford that. Why don't
we you know? So I'm sorry to think about it.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
So funny, because I'll always do the you know, after
all this effort, you just can't help these funs.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Oh man, Well, it's just it's hard to hate people
from close up when we lean in, but when we
other them, it's so easy to demonize, right They just
it's easy for us because then we can wash our
hands with something that's complicated. And I couldn't. I couldn't
turn away, and so I did some work around it.
So I'll just to give you a little bit of
background at this church I was sitting at. This is
(34:20):
a church that took me in when another one kicked
me out.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah what yeah, why because it.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Was getting divorced. I was getting divorced and they didn't
like the circumstances around my.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Divorce, I say, And so you got kicked out.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Correct, really kicked out, like don't come back, okay, or
we'll send the elders after you, lovely.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I did start to notice in my own self that
I was really drawn to helping groups of people that
had been extricated to the margins. My friend, I had
a really good friend who was an actor in LA
who grew up in TI. Larry went to LA, was
on CSI, he was on in a movie all these
things and came back. He's gay and he started an
LGBTQ plus resource center in the reddest most not progressive
(35:09):
part of California. It was super brave what he did.
And I was really drawn to that work too because
we also I also found out in doing some of
this work, how many kids in the LGBTQ plus community
are are homeless catastrophic loss of family or support, right,
you know, it goes back to that. Anyway, I found
(35:29):
myself being drawn to these, to these you know, groups
of people. So the homeless thing, it wouldn't let me go.
But I was really frustrated right away. But I already
had my own life, coach business. I was doing my
own thing. I'm like, this is I don't know how
to start a nonprofit. I'm not I'm not doing this.
Then I'm listening to a podcast because I love podcasts,
and I was gen hatmaker and she was saying, hey,
(35:50):
I live in Austin. I lived just outside of Austin.
And if you are dealing with homelessess and all, you
should know Alan Graham. He wrote the book Welcome Homeless.
He's got you know, has a mobile food truck opera
twenty five years old, and they started a village called
the Community First village. You should you know, get to
know this guy. So I was this is an Austin.
So I read the book. I call Alan up and
(36:10):
I'm like, hey, I would love for you to come
to our community and do a fundraiser for this this
nonprofit I'm on the board for. He says, I want
you to come to me first. So I did and
was taken aback and really was like, this is it.
This is what's missing. It's like, this is the relational piece.
There's no the US and them, there's no other ing there.
People are living in community with one another. It's like
(36:30):
a little mini city. So I'm like, all right, I'm
going to take this model back to my nonprofit board
and they can implement it. And they're like, no, thank you,
And I'm like, what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
No thank you?
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Like this is a great idea, Like no, we don't
have to pass you that. No, we don't know. We
really aren't interested in doing that. We like kind of
like what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Okay, we're not like the church. We're not going to
kick you out, but we're not going to listen to
you either.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Well yeah, I mean, so there's some real themes that
were pretty you know, they were yeah, yeah, i mean,
I'm pretty sure I was never going to the charity.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Lest words in any dying organization are We've always done it.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
This way, and that that is like kryptonite to me.
Like if someone says to me, if I ask me
why they did something, they say it because I always
have done it that way, I'm like, I'm not sure
you're my people.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
And that concludes Part one of my conversation with Adriann Hillman,
and you don't want to miss part two that's now
available to listen to you together, guys, we can change
this country, but it starts with you. I'll see in
part two
People are literally starving on the streets of Tilarrian Vicelia.
We started feeding people in the streets and it was
a game changer. It taught us what we needed to
know about people experiencing homelessness. But the back of your mind, meanwhile,
I got the wheels turn.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
On this village to build a village, right.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
And I needed a movement because I needed support right
in a lot of ways. Money, volunteers, all those things I.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Talk about a village, those are houses, houses, a development. Yes,
this is not cheap.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
No, it wasn't cheap. I say this a lot, and
I still think it's true that, Yes, our work is around,
you know, homelessness. But I always say, this is just
my sneaky little way to teach people to love each
other better.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father,
I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in
Inner City Memphis. And that last part, somehow it led
to an oscar for the film about our team. That
movie's called Undefeated. I believe our country's problems will never
(01:04):
be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice
suits using big words that really nobody ever uses on
CNN and Fox, but rather by an army of normal folks.
That's us, just you and me deciding, Hey, you know what,
maybe I can help. That's what Adrianne Hillman, the voice
you just start, has done. Adrianne is the founder of
(01:27):
Salt and Light, which lives in community with people experiencing homelessness,
both figuratively and literally. They built what's called the Neighborhood
Village with fifty homes for people experiencing homelessness and three
homes for missional residents. Because community, well, as she teaches us,
(01:51):
community changes everything. I cannot wait for you to meet
Adrianne right after these brief messages from our general sponsors.
Adrian Adrian Adrian Adrian, Adrian, Adrian Adrianne Hillman.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I am so good.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Welcome to Memphis. Thank you everybody. Adrian.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
And it's it's spelled A d R A N N E,
which feels like you know, Rockies Adrian, but it's Adrian.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Did I there's an A D R I A.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Mom?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Why didn't you just name me Adrian, like seriously would
have been Adrianne. Yes, I spent half my life correcting people.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Okay, well, and you corrected me before we went on air,
and the first thing out of my mouth.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I screwed it up.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
My husband called me that for a long time.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
He got it.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Adrianne is here. She is the founder and CEO of
Salt and Light. It's from the So.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
What is it?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Delia vice Elia.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Vadelia Vicealia.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
That's right, I did it, all right, Founder and CEO
of Salt Light from Delia with an s California. We
can't wait to tell you your story. It's only everybody.
It's ten in the morning, and she came from California.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I was supposed to fly in last night.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
So now you're on a six am or something.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, I got to be on the Red Eye.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I got super fun to stay in the weekend. That's right,
all right? Cool, Well, I hope.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
You enjoy all right, So, uh, We're gonna certainly get
Salt Light because that's why you're here and the work
that you've done. I've seen a YouTube video and I've
read all of Alex's prep work, and I have a
thousand questions for you. But first, before we get to that,
tell us about Tipton California, and where you came from,
(03:49):
and I think it's called Tilayr. I'll probably screwed that
up to.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
And close Larry Hilarry. So to Larry, Oh, for gosh.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Sake, I know, man.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
So the San Joaquin Valley I said that, right, although
expelled Joa Quinn. So I'm not Spanish clearly. So give
us a little background about you. Where are you from,
how you grew up, kind of establish who you are
as a human being.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
All right. I grew up in the middle of a
cornfield in Tipton, California. So Tipton is at most has
a thousand people, maybe pretty spread out, it's that's right.
And grew up on a dairy. My family on my
dad's side Portuguese descent. There's a pretty large population of
(04:40):
Portuguese folks in the Central Valley of California. And so
central Valley California for folks who don't know, is we
are right smack between Fresno and Bakersfield. So anybody's familiar.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
With fread basket of the world, that's right.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So grew up in a farming family.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
My dad is your family farm?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Oh? Absolutely? My dad grew corn and cotton and alfalfa.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Does that mean you were out of I was a
kid working with your dad on the farm many.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Little He didn't really want us on tractors. We had
a couple of accidents on our farm that were fatal,
and I think he wanted us to I I grew
up with three sisters. Yeah, no brothers, to his chagrin,
but I mean he loves us now, but I loved
us then. But I mean he was really wanted to.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah. I just killed that poor guy.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Yeah, it was a lot going on. So no, I
used to We actually lived about a mile from our dairy,
and I'd get on my bike and I'd ride my
bike down the canal. We had a canal bank right
next to us, and I'd ride it to the dairy,
right to my grandma's house, and spent a lot of
time on the dairy, picked figs on her out of
her tree and tomatoes out of her garden, and went
and teased the bulls in the in the pins. We
didn't get in the pens because that wasn't a good idea.
(05:45):
But so, yeah, I grew up on my family dairy
and it was just it was a It was a
good life. You know, rural, and then went on to
Fresle State. I didn't leave. I never really left the valley.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
The Bulldogs, Yeah, a bulldog who was the Fresno When
did you go to college?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So I graduated in two thousand.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
First State's pretty good in football back in those days.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
That was Derek.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
He's back.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
He moved to Fresno. He's been moving back to Fresnoe. Yeah, this,
he just decided to move back.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I could pretty much relate anything in the world to football,
and I could talk about it.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
But the Bulldogs were good. And I can't remember the
head coach's name. He was good.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
He was a really good coach.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah. Yeah, that Fresno State was worth going to back
in those days.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
You know, it was a great college. And I you know,
it's not super sexy. You know, there's no beach anywhere near.
It's not like a super duper college town. But I
loved it. I loved Fresno State, and I was really
happy with my education and did that, stayed around and
got married and had three little boys.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Your husband at Presno State.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
No, I actually so. The husband mister Hillman, mister Scott Hillman,
who I'm married to now is my second husband, I say, yep,
and so my first husband, father of my children. I
met him at my dad's racetrack. So my dad also
has a racetrack. So cars cars, okay, dirt cars, so
dirt track of four ten three sixties mini sprints, you know,
(07:05):
and so a' racing family. My dad's a dragstrew driver,
so and a farmer. So I kind of have some
interesting history.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Honestly, when you hear La, or you hear California and
you flew out LA, you think that you think you're
a country girl.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Oh yeah, but I flew out of LA because I
have business in LA. When I get back, and I
spent a lot of time in La. I love LA.
I actually love LA and San Francisco. I love California
and where I live it's the best place because well,
first of all, we're at the base of the Sequoias.
So Tillarry County is the home to the sequoias, the
giant sequoia trees, which are miraculous and everyone should come
to see them. They're they're inexplicable. I mean, I can't
(07:39):
describe just they're amazing. And so we're at the base
of Yosemite. About hour half out of Yosemite, we can
ski and surf in the same day, and I know
people who have done it. We're about two hours from
the beach and three hours out of San Francisco, two
and a half out of LA. It's kind of perfect.
I mean, it's also very rural. There are more cows
than people per capita in Tillarry County. True.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, there's more churches than gas stations in Memphis, so
we all.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Have our things.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, we have a lot of churches to yes. Yeah,
and incidentally, unfortunately a lot of folks experiencing homelesses too.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
All right, so it sounds like a pretty organic I
mean honestly, with the farm and the dirt track and everything,
it sounds like a cool, maybe middle upper middle lifestyle.
Coming up with a tight family. You used to ride
your bike to your grandparents, so I assume pretty organic,
multi generational.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Went to school close to home.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Right for miss California. I was Miss Hillarry County. That
was part of my college, paid for part of my college,
and you know, I stuck around. I was definitely So.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Would you do for a living out of college?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Right out of college? Incidentally, I was an investment rep
for Edward Jones, and I love Edward Jones as a company,
but hated the job. Just didn't want to sell people investments.
A nine to eleven hit at the time. When I
was a broker, a young broker in a field where
it was ninety six percent men, you know, and I
was twenty two years old. It wasn't the easiest to
get business, and I just didn't love it, and then
(09:11):
ended up having kids. I started having my first son
I had when he was twenty when I was twenty five,
and stayed home with them, and then eventually went through
a painful divorce. And then I was a professionally trained
life coach. I had a practice as a life coach
and a speaker, and was it was hosting retreats for
women and talking about boundaries and integrity and kind of
(09:32):
working through fear and some of those things. I had
a brand like.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
You might have learned some of that yourself.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, yeah, do It Afraid. I had a brand called
do It Afraid that I trademarked, and I utilized that
as an empowerment brand to kind of teach women to
use their fear as raw material for courage. You know,
and did that and then and then this whole thing unfolded, so.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Which we'll get to the stool. Yeah yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Again, cool life, doing your thing, me upbringing three sisters.
I bet you're probably pretty close too, if you're anything
like or at least and my four children.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Are very close.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
And I get it, but and not at all in
an disperiencing way. But it's not like that's this remarkable
life or somebody's tapping you on the shoulder and say,
go do something for the community. You're just living a
normal life.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah, but I've always had I mean, I've always wanted
to do I like doing work for the community, so
that was important. But that's not what this was. That's
not how this happened though. That wasn't even that. It
really came like as a call that I didn't want
to be frank. I mean, I've never been anywhere near homelessness.
I have had privilege. You kind of touched on that. Yeah, No,
(10:46):
how it all came to be was pretty crazy.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Really, So let's start with this and then we'll let
you unfold it.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
And I have some questions about it.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, I love pushback on oh goody oh hey, these
are my favorite interviews.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
But my pushback I'm not even sure if I believe it,
but I think many of our listeners might have it,
So I want to address it and let's just hash
it out a little.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
I would love it, and I will guess that I've
been asked this question.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
About, oh, with what you do. I'm sure you are.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
It's just interesting how similar our misconceptions or even beliefs
around homelessness, how homogenous they are really across the country.
It's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So you broke the egg.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
We'll go ahead and let everybody in on the thirty
thousand foot view before we get into the weeds. Salt
and Light Adrian Anne started Salt and Light and it
was to assist folks who are experiencing homelessness.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Did I say that right? Okay?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I was a beating with her before the interview whether
you do it. You didn't even say a word to
me about it, and I got it right.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
And it started very small, hasn't exploded like many of
our guests. And we're going to get to all that.
So folks who experience homelessness are what your work is about.
But first, before we even get to that, and how
you got to it. I read this, there's twenty five
(12:18):
hundred to three thousand people experiencing homelessness in Tilauri County
out of about a half million residents, which to me
is interesting. It's rule so you think of homelessness more
in urban areas. Memphis has an issue with it. San
Francisco certainly does, La and every other much policicity, but
(12:40):
you don't think about it really in the rural areas
as much. And I feel like twenty five hundred and
three thousand out half million is a lot, a lot.
And I think that nearly half of the nation's entire
homeless population is in the state of California.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
That's correct. Unpack that a little, all right.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
So to talk a little bit about Tillarry County, so.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So that we understand why you went to work in
it in the first place. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Well, and I didn't even really totally know all of this,
does I mean, I didn't know how bad the problem
really was. I had a really small view in our
little town. But it's rural. But it also isn't we
have you know, we have cities that are cities that
they're suburban, you know, and that's where most of our folks.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, I mean they're cities, but yeah, but we're not
talking we're not yes, right.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
We're not talking metropolitan cities. Fresno would be our closest,
you know, semi metropolitan city. But what I learned early
on was in twenty nineteen, Hudd's report to Congress said
that the Tilarry Kings continue of care. So our area
have the highest per capita rate of chronically homeless unsheltered
(13:55):
folks in the United States. That's crazy, crazy, higher than
San Francis, especially highly.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Here that agriculture people are always looking for workers.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
And so so that is a little bit of a
misnomer because Tilry County also is one of the most
poverty stricken counties in California and in the United States.
We're also the least educated, meaning the least amount of
secondary or post high school education. Doesn't mean our educational
system is bad where we are. It means that people
(14:25):
don't stay when they have a bachelor's degree or higher.
And that's tough because that's that affects systems, right, that
affects government, that affects the way we do things in
those spaces.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
So they get their degree in leaf, we.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Have what we call brain drain in the Central Valley.
And I'll be frank, I wanted to leave at points too.
I mean, I get the draw.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Nashville is sucking a lot of talent out of Memphis.
Same way.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, exactly, so you can understand. And that does change
the way the systems work. It changes funding, it changes
all kinds of things. However, we were also forty years
behind the eight ball in terms of having any kind
of structure or any kind of the shelter system or
anything in place for people experiencing homelessness. And you touched
on work, and you know, it looks like they need workers,
(15:10):
and the problem is this, It's that it's not that
people aren't necessarily getting work. We contend that the greatest
cause of homelessness is a loss of support or family,
because we all know people that are and we know
that there's mental illnesses it's certainly a factor, and addiction,
but we all know people who are mentally ill. We
all know people who are addicted, who are housed. What's
(15:31):
the difference. Difference is when someone loses all support for
whatever reason. This is not to point fingers at the family. Hey,
you're not supporting your people. For whatever reason, someone's lost
their support. And so once that happens, when people get
into the system of homelessness, it is incredibly difficult to
get out.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
And now a few messages from our gener sponsors. But
first I hope you'll consider signing up to join the
army at normal Folks dota US. By signing up, you'll
receive a weekly email with short episodes summaries in case
you happen to miss an episode or if you prefer
reading about our incredible guests, we'll be right back. The
(16:22):
fact that half the homelessness that exists in the nation
is in one state, California, admittedly a big stake, but still.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
With housing costs that are exorbited.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Well that's a big part of it, huge part of it.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
So there's an argument, and I'm going to let you
play with this. This is the pushback, But there's an
argument that in cities like San Francisco that provide basically
an enormous amount of services for people experiencing homelessness and
(17:06):
even open air areas to often continue to behave to
take part in.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Stuff that probably led to.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Their homelessness in the first place, and they tolerated and
actually work with it so well, and same thing in
some places in LA. That one of the reasons that
homelessness in California is half of the country's homeless population
(17:39):
is because the homeless snow they can go to California
and get services, and so a lot of the homeless
population is not necessarily indigenous, but invited in by some
of those very liberal open programs. When I say liberal,
I'm not talking politics. I mean open minded, progressive school liberal.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Hey, what you're saying those little yards major So I get.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
It, well, I am too, so and we can't get
into politics because Alex gets mad at me. But the
truth is I don't even know what side I'll I
land on anyway. So when I use the word liberal,
I mean it as it is in the definition of
the word liberal, open minded, progressive type thought. The point
is there is a and there's studies on it, there's
(18:27):
data on it, but that yes, California has fifty percent
of the of the homeless population in the United States,
but a big percent of that fifty percent is people
coming from outside the state because they know they can
get services there, thus exacerbating their own problem.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
There actually are studies on this.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I know I am.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I know what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
So I'm going to toss that up for you and
let you take a shot.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Let me let me swing the bat at that. Okay, Well,
there are a lot of studies that and one of
the things I learned, at least for Larry County, so
we actually did a huge study in to Larry County
kind of figure out where people are coming from, because
there is a pervasive myth across the country that says
people are being you s, it's a myth that people
are being bussed in.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
So I just I just mythologically tossed that out there.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Well, at least since I can speak for Toilarry County,
and I think there are other studies that will back
this up to say go for that. Even if you
look at Detroit, Let's say, let's go to a place
that's like freezing cold. I actually have a friend who
doesn't work in Oklahoma City and literally when it gets
super super cold, they're literally chiseling people off the street.
They're freezing to the concrete, it's that cold. But they're
(19:38):
from there. People stay where they're from, by and large. Now,
certainly people move around, but that bit about people moving
to California for it, it's a little issuy and in
Clarry County. I know this for a fact because we've
done the study on it. Ninety one percent of the
people that live in Larry County who are experiencing homelessness
are native to Toilarry County.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
So let's take that data.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
It's it's real, it's it's it's good data.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I know.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
I looked it up before I talked to you, but
I wanted to throw out the counterpoint to that.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, so that you had an opportunity to address it.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I love it. I like, I like your approach. Yeah,
I think that when Also for me, it's like, you
know what when we when when we other people and
we decide that they're from another state, another city, another town,
another country, another another, it's like we forget that we're
actually we all just belong to each other, right and
(20:35):
none of us are healed until we're all here.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Oh yeah, but we can't get into that part yet. Yeah,
that's later.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
But the deal is this For me, I agree with you,
but it's later.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Other people's children are my children. Like that's that's kind
of my stance. And it's kind of like if people
are experiencing homeless us and they're starving in front of me,
and like, excuse me, are you from Tillerry County? Because
if you're not, I'm gonna have you go get your
food in the next county.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
I know I've been.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I get all of that. But to understand why that matters,
we have to have a baseline for the bulk of
rational people thinking to understand where the.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Problem comes from.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
And if we think the problem comes from, well we're
moving them in. I don't really have a heart for
a problem when you're creating it yourself. Well, if we
can dispel that notion, we can step forward exactly, So
we're dispelling that notion.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
The second thing is, then.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
If that's not the case, which I used to think
it was, but I've done research and later found out
it is a myth.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I did do it because it's plausible. It actually makes
sense totally.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
And when the smart people on Seeing and in Fox
get up there with their nee graphics and their and
their ties and their and their big old words that
I can't pronounce clearly, how I butchered the beginning of this,
and they start saying that stuff well, you're inclined.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
To believe it.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
It makes for good TV.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
It makes for good TV, and it all also makes
for really good fodder to continue to have us separate
into our policy political corners.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
So anyway, and to wash your hands of a problem
we don't want to fix.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Well, it's also true. So that's a myth.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
We've established it, and if y'all don't like it, look
it up on Google and find out that you might
have been misled. But there is another fact that half
of the homeless population lives in your state.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
So if we're not moving them in the problem right.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So I'll tell you what I own. I have some
boys now they're twenty two, eighteen, and sixteen. Well, my
twenty two year old starts looking for apartments and what
he can probably get his hands on. The around twenty
five hundred bucks a month. Well, I don't know what
your first mortgage looked like, but mine was nowhere near.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
That almost five ninety five.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, I think mine was something like nine hundred for
a twenty five hundred square foot house.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I was sixteen hundred square feet.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
You were in hot cotton, Yeah, look at me go,
But I mean I wasn't hilarry, you know, California. But anyway,
the housing rates are insane. People are really struggling to
stay in housing. And once that happens, if someone wasn't
not already mentally having mental issues or addictive issues before
(23:17):
getting to the streets, and they, let's say they lost
their job, they lost their housing, chances are pretty good
that that's coming next, because living in survival on the streets,
nothing really is more traumatizing to the nervous system.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Adrian.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
One of the beautiful things about our country is we
have interstate travel free. You don't have to have a
passport to go from California Mississippi.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
A good point.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
So if you got that problem, why don't you get
you a fifty seven dollars greyhound bus ticket and haul
ass to somewhere where it doesn't cost that much and
they do need jobs.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, if you've got the money to do that.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
But well, I thought you were going to tell me
about the community part.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Now, well, I mean I would say that getting you know,
even my own dad, God bless him, and I know
he's going to listen to this. He already told me
he wants to listen to it. But he's Hey, Dad,
he said to me one time, and of course, you know.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
I said, does he have a crick in his neck
from going counterclockwise all his life on a mud truck?
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Always looking like.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
He actually isn't mud track driver. He's only a drags
for driver. But he has a mud track as an owner.
You know why because he liked to use the road
grader when he was planting cotton, and he uses the
hes going to say, yesterday I drove by the track.
I drove by the racetrack yesterday and I could see
my dad's tahoe.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Which Steve, Hey, Steve, what's up? You're listening.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
He's a good dude at a really hard worker. But
he asked me, why can't they just get a job.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
I'm giving you an opportunity to just spell the next
thing people will say, which is, there's chicken farms in
Arkansas and apartments for six hundred bucks. There's there's people
in North Mississippi looking for labor all the time and
good jobs where you can live for a thousand bucks
a month, no problem because the cost of living, obviously
in parts of the country much less. Why not if
(24:56):
you lose your house and your job, leave smooth?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, just move and go get a job somewhere, And
you're right, It's like people don't want to do that.
They want to stay. That's why we know that that
data we talked about earlier is correct. People basically stay
where they were planted. You know, they want to anyway
they know, but they know where the roots are. I mean,
look at me, I've stayed that whole time, and I
(25:20):
just it's so much more than a job. It's about community.
It's about what who you're surrounded with. It's about where
your roots are. And I know that people move all
over the country from their families. I have a sister
who lives in Texas. I mean yes, and also she
had to recreate a new community there in Texas and
a new family because we're all the way in California
and we love her and we get out there when
we can. But you have to create a new life
(25:42):
somewhere else, and that's pretty tough to do, especially if
you are struggling with you know, adverse childhood experiences, if
you've been abused, if you have had some sort of
catastrophic loss of family or support, and so having the
get up mental health issues which we know come from trauma,
and we know that that's what addiction is about, right.
Addiction is not about just crummy people. It's not. It's
(26:05):
about people who are trying to numb a pain.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Some of the best people are now reformer of it.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Hell yeah, one of my best friends is in recovery.
Is the bravest person I know. You know, it's like,
and we're all if we're trying to numb some of
there's lots of different ways to do it, just some
of them are more socially acceptable than others, and some
of them are less destructive than others. On the surface.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
We will be right back. Okay, So what we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I know you didn't know when you started this education
has evolved, but I think it's important to get to
the education and the evolution of the data and the
facts before we go back to where you started. To
set the table for our listeners to understand. People aren't
flocking to California because San Francisco is given away free needles.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Of a curve.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Although we think that, I know, people can move, but
when you're at the depths of despair, the last thing
you want to do is leave the few people in
the few places in the three of street things, you know,
and so while it sounds good in principle and true purpose,
(27:31):
it's unlikely to happen. The other thing is, in California,
housing is so desperately expensive that when you get underwater
just a little bit, that that teaspoon of choking can
become a flood and a hurry. And because it's hard
(27:54):
to move, it's hard to relocate, you don't want to
leave what you have. Many times, the trauma that you're
dealing with, the homelessness started when you were sixteen and abused.
The problems are more than just on a bus ticket.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
And so that's what we know now. But you didn't
know that.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Heck no, And I mean I told you already. I
came from some privilege. And the thing of it is,
I think that especially for people who've been nowhere near
homelessness or haven't even come close to.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
That, which is the vast majority of our listeners.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Right when we have not experienced something like that, it
takes a desire to want to know how this happened
with an open hand. And the thing of it is,
we can overlay what we think people should do with
their lives based on what would have worked for you
and I as people of privilege or wherever we came from.
I know, privilege, that's a charge word, and people get
(28:49):
really mad when you say it, But you know what,
I've never been anywhere near homelessness. I've never worried where
my next meal was going to come from. And I
say that not in a pride for way. I say
that to say I had a steep learning curve. So
I think that is partially why I've somewhat been successful
with this, because it's like I kind of speak both languages.
I had to learn how this happened, why it mattered.
(29:11):
I have a heart for people belonging as my heartbreak.
We'll get into that, and that's what led me to this.
But I also have lived a life of basically privilege
and had to figure out because I used to think
that my solutions for myself would be what would work
for my folks. With enough work with my people, just
get a job. Why can't you just go get a therapist?
(29:34):
You know what I mean. I'm overlaying things that I
can easily do, but that's way out of out of
reach for someone who's experienced the kind of I got
a guy who lives my village, and I mean, I'm
kind of no. Okay, well, I'm just telling you there
there are things I could not get my brain around
that are happening in my backyard, in my county, that
(29:55):
are so appalling and so shocking that we will all
people to live this way and then to condemn them.
I mean, father Greg Boyle, good friend of mine from
Homeboy Industries. He says it best. He says, we should
stand in awe of what the poor have to carry,
rather than in judgment of how they carry it. And
(30:17):
damn if that's not the best word, because it's that
probably has been one of the most singularly powerful messages
that I have internalized, taken in, and learn, and it
has changed the way I see everything.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Really, we have to stand in awe of what the
poor have to carry, rather than condemning them for the
way they carry it. Right, I will use that repeatedly.
One of my guests a while back said something easily
and simply profound, which is we can be great people
(30:50):
and stand in the river and pull drowning children out
of it all we want, but eventually we need to
go up river and find out why they're following in
river in the first place, same stuff.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Preach it that. I mean, I have said it to
people and they're like, the answers are incredible that people
have actually even said to that comment.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah, it's yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
So now we've set the stage, the table's laid, it's
all made, So here we are. You get a call
that felt very audible to you, and that was back
in twenty sixteen or seventeen, So tell me about that.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah, So I used to think that people said things
like when they said God told me this, or God,
I'm so.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Glad I just went through this with another guest.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Yeah, it actually did sound audible, which was shocking to me.
But I'd had one more thing. And it's funny. We brought
up my dad because it was actually when I was
in the middle of my divorce and I was pretty
outcasts from most people, and I remember this like audible,
like go talk to your dad. It like woke me
up in the middle of the night, and the right
thing to do was to go talk to my dad.
(31:58):
That was actually the next best step. So it turns out,
you know, somebody was telling me something and it sounded
like that. It actually happened almost the exact same way.
And I'm telling you, I used to think when people
said something like okay, yeah right, God talk to you. Sure, okay, cucko.
You know, I was at church. I was at church
and it wasn't about homelessess at all. It wasn't anything
about serving the poor.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Nothing.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
And my husband and I were sitting in the front row
and I get this kind of like you're gonna serve
the homeless. I'm like, no, I'm not. So we go outside.
I tell my husband about this because I tell him
everything that feels somewhat supernatural or whatever, and he's like, well,
you know, there is kind of a problem brewing. It
was we could start to see the snowballing was starting
to happen around that time. And I said, I've never
(32:43):
I've never even served in a soup kitchen. I'm not,
I can't. I don't even know what I'm doing. I'm
ill equipped, that's not my I love kids, and I
was going to be a teacher. I mean, I had
all these excuses.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Nah.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Three weeks later, we had a family friend who passed
away suddenly of a heart attack. She was sitting on
a board of a local non prop faith based nonprofit
serving women. Well at the time they called it. Yeah,
so it was a women's shelter, and they asked me
at her funeral if I A family friend came and
asked me if I would take her place. I'm like,
there it is. God was just like preparing my heart
(33:16):
so I could sit on a board there.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It is sure I could show up once quarter.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Huh No, it wasn't gonna be like that all and
right away, and they're good people. I sat on that
board with They're good people. However, I could see right
away this was not how I saw things. You know.
There were ways in which we were treating and talking
about people, but it was very normalized. No one was
doing anything you know, quote unquote wrong. It was how
everyone talked about those people. Those people just want to
(33:45):
use our hose pickets. We need to take them off
the building. Those people, I'm like, why don't we get
a shower truck? Well we can't afford that. Why don't
we you know? So I'm sorry to think about it.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
So funny, because I'll always do the you know, after
all this effort, you just can't help these funs.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Oh man, Well, it's just it's hard to hate people
from close up when we lean in, but when we
other them, it's so easy to demonize, right They just
it's easy for us because then we can wash our
hands with something that's complicated. And I couldn't. I couldn't
turn away, and so I did some work around it.
So I'll just to give you a little bit of
background at this church I was sitting at. This is
(34:20):
a church that took me in when another one kicked
me out.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah what yeah, why because it.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Was getting divorced. I was getting divorced and they didn't
like the circumstances around my.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Divorce, I say, And so you got kicked out.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Correct, really kicked out, like don't come back, okay, or
we'll send the elders after you, lovely.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I did start to notice in my own self that
I was really drawn to helping groups of people that
had been extricated to the margins. My friend, I had
a really good friend who was an actor in LA
who grew up in TI. Larry went to LA, was
on CSI, he was on in a movie all these
things and came back. He's gay and he started an
LGBTQ plus resource center in the reddest most not progressive
(35:09):
part of California. It was super brave what he did.
And I was really drawn to that work too because
we also I also found out in doing some of
this work, how many kids in the LGBTQ plus community
are are homeless catastrophic loss of family or support, right,
you know, it goes back to that. Anyway, I found
(35:29):
myself being drawn to these, to these you know, groups
of people. So the homeless thing, it wouldn't let me go.
But I was really frustrated right away. But I already
had my own life, coach business. I was doing my
own thing. I'm like, this is I don't know how
to start a nonprofit. I'm not I'm not doing this.
Then I'm listening to a podcast because I love podcasts,
and I was gen hatmaker and she was saying, hey,
(35:50):
I live in Austin. I lived just outside of Austin.
And if you are dealing with homelessess and all, you
should know Alan Graham. He wrote the book Welcome Homeless.
He's got you know, has a mobile food truck opera
twenty five years old, and they started a village called
the Community First village. You should you know, get to
know this guy. So I was this is an Austin.
So I read the book. I call Alan up and
(36:10):
I'm like, hey, I would love for you to come
to our community and do a fundraiser for this this
nonprofit I'm on the board for. He says, I want
you to come to me first. So I did and
was taken aback and really was like, this is it.
This is what's missing. It's like, this is the relational piece.
There's no the US and them, there's no other ing there.
People are living in community with one another. It's like
(36:30):
a little mini city. So I'm like, all right, I'm
going to take this model back to my nonprofit board
and they can implement it. And they're like, no, thank you,
And I'm like, what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
No thank you?
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Like this is a great idea, Like no, we don't
have to pass you that. No, we don't know. We
really aren't interested in doing that. We like kind of
like what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Okay, we're not like the church. We're not going to
kick you out, but we're not going to listen to
you either.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Well yeah, I mean, so there's some real themes that
were pretty you know, they were yeah, yeah, i mean,
I'm pretty sure I was never going to the charity.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Lest words in any dying organization are We've always done it.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
This way, and that that is like kryptonite to me.
Like if someone says to me, if I ask me
why they did something, they say it because I always
have done it that way, I'm like, I'm not sure
you're my people.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
And that concludes Part one of my conversation with Adriann Hillman,
and you don't want to miss part two that's now
available to listen to you together, guys, we can change
this country, but it starts with you. I'll see in
part two
Host
Bill Courtney
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