October 14, 2025 • 36 mins
Bob Lupton moved into inner-city Atlanta, where he learned the hard lesson that most of his charitable work was toxic. This led him to radically change how he showed up. And to write the bestselling book Toxic Charity that rocked our world and likely will rock yours.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
We've got to change the way we view our neighbors.
Instead of seeing them as people in need, we've got
to start seeing them as people with resources, people with talents,
people with abilities, and that no one is so poor
(00:24):
in our community. No one is so poor that they
have nothing to contribute. Everybody has something to contribute in
the community.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father,
I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm a football coach an inner
City Memphis. And that last part, well, it actually led
to an oscar for a film about one of my teams.
It's called Undefeated. Guys, I believe are choose. Problems are
(01:01):
never going to be solved by a bunch of fancy
people in nice suits using big words that nobody ever
uses on CNN and Fox, but rather by an army
of normal folks. Y'all. That's us, just you and me deciding, Hey,
you know what, maybe I can help. That's what Bob Lupton,
(01:21):
the voice you just heard, has done. Bob and his
family moved into inner city Atlanta, where he learned the
hard lessons that most of his charitable work was toxic.
This led him to radically change how he showed up
and to write the best selling book, Toxic Charity that's
rocked the world of millions of Americans, and his story
(01:44):
is likely going to rock yours because I'm gonna tell
you something, a rocked bond. You'll hear this right after
these brief messages from our general sponsors. Well, everybody, today,
(02:10):
we have for you a very unorthodox episode for two reasons.
One my guest is not with me, and two Alex
hasn't done his job. So here's how that works. As
you guys know, every episode, we interview a normal person,
the dude you're about to be introduced to that we're
(02:32):
featuring today. In doing interviews anymore, I think he's had
as full of interviews. But he's a great guy and
his story's phenomenal. Giving the number of interviews he's done
at his age, he's aren't that right, But Alex just
loves this guy's story and message so much that he's
(02:53):
felt really compelled to bring it to our audience, our army,
and he loves it so much that we're about to
feature one of his talks and we'll comment on it
to be candid. I know a little bit about the
guy's story, but I have no idea what's coming in
this speech that we're going to listen to together and
comment on. And the second part I said, Alex has
(03:17):
given me zero prep. I think he wants me to
hear this for the first time, as you're listening to
it first time, so we can kind of have this
revealed to us together. Here's a little bit about Bob
Lovedon before we get into his talk. Bob has invested
over forty years of his life in inner city Atlanta.
(03:40):
In response to a call that he first felt while
serving in Vietnam. He left a budding business career to
work with delinquent urban youth. Bob and his wife, Peggy,
and their two sons sold their suburban home and moved
into the inner city, where they have lived and served
as neighbors among those in need. You talk about a
(04:03):
guy that burned the boat. Their life's work has been
rebuilding of urban neighborhoods where families can flourish and children
can grow into healthy adults. Bob is a Christian community
developer and entrepreneur who brings together communities of resources with
communities of need. Focused Community Strategies is the name of
(04:27):
an organization I think he founded, and through FCS Focused
Community Strategies, he has developed two mixed income subdivisions, organized
a multi racial congregation, started a number of businesses, created
housing for hundreds of families, and initiated a wide range
(04:47):
of human services in this community. He's the author of
several books, including the Widely Read which I actually owned
the book and haven't read it. I've opened it twice,
but now I have to the title. The book is
Toxic Charity, How churches and charities hurt those they help
(05:09):
and how to reverse it. Weeks of just the title
weeks of Turkey Person, and I have no idea if
that's really what it's about, but I will tell you
a friend, after hearing the Turkey person a story, bought
me this book, So it's got to be at least
interwoven the kind folks at Nyzorene Compassionate Ministries. They've been
(05:34):
really kind. They've allowed us to feature Bob's talk to
their group on our podcast, and as we listen to
it together, we'll comment as we go. So Alex roll tape. Hey,
I've always wanted to say that I feel like a corrector.
We go sounds goodbody.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
During that ten year period we had start did a
number of programs that I felt very good about. We've
got use of an old Presbyterian church that had closed
down and I got permission to set up our office
there and invite the community in for programs and worship,
(06:18):
and so we did. It started a good number of
what I felt very good about programs for our neighbors.
The one that created the most excitement was what we
called our adopt a Family program that was at Christmas
time and we would give the names of kids that
(06:42):
were not going to get anything for Christmas to carrying
people from around the city who would go shopping, and
then on Christmas Eve they would bring those toys to
the homes of the kids, and it created a lot
of excitement, as you can imagine. But the first year
(07:03):
that we were living in the neighborhood as neighbors, that
was really the first time I had the opportunity to
be in the homes of the recipient families when the
gift bearing families arrived, and I saw something that I
had just never noticed before. The kids, of course, they
(07:24):
were all exciteds like Santa Claus is coming. The moms
were gracious, little reserved, perhaps perhaps a little embarrassed. But
if there was a dad in a household, he just disappeared.
He went out the back door and it dawned. I mean,
what was happening was that these parents were being exposed
(07:48):
for their inability to provide in front of their kids,
and the moms would endure that indignity for the sake
of the kids. But it was just more than a
father's sense of pride could handle. It was as though
his impotence was being exposed in front of his wife
(08:09):
and kids in his own living room, killing them. I
never saw that before, and it made me wonder, are
the other programs that we are doing, the clothes closet,
the food pantry. It made me wonder, is this same
(08:32):
kind of indignity going on in the way we are
doing our charity. I was reading everything I could get
my hands on. In those days, there wasn't a lot
of literature. John Perkins hadn't written his book yet, and
I came across one author by the name of Jacques
(08:54):
l Lewell. He's a French philosopher, theologian, and and this
quote jumped off the page at me a little said, almsgiving,
that's the old word for charity. Almsgiving is Mammon's perversion
(09:15):
of giving. It affirms the superiority of the giver, It
finds the recipient and demands gratitude. It humiliates him and
reduces him to a lower state than he had before.
(09:36):
Can you see why that hit me right in heart?
That one why we were there to diminish anybody, certainly
not to humiliate anybody. We were there to affirm, to encourage.
And it sent me on a search through everything we
(10:00):
were doing. The clothes closet that was, that was an
easy one to start up. You know, we don't wear
out our clothes in this culture except the man. They
tend to a little bit. We gathered in clothes from
folks around the city and we had plenty of room
in that in the old Presbyterian church, and so we
(10:22):
invited the community in. We said, these are the free
gifts of God's people. They've been freely given. Help yourself,
And it was it was a beautiful spirit of sharing
until we actually opened the doors, and then folks came
charging in and grabbing up as many handfuls as clothes
(10:45):
as they could carry out, and then I'd find a
clothes scattered around outside, no place to try them on,
and realized, whoa this is? This is not good stewardship.
So we hastily drew up some rules and posted them.
Limit the number of garments per visit, limit the number
of visits per month. Well that was like saying, let
(11:10):
the games begin. Can we get some clothes for our
kids that are in school? Well that's reasonable. Can we
get some clothes for my sick uncle who can't get
in here today? You just know where this is going.
(11:31):
In no time, we were acting like temple police, guarding
the resources of the kingdom against the very folks we
were there to serve among. It turned into an adversarial
relationship almost overnight. Then why we were there. We were
(11:52):
there to share, to share our lives, to share our resources,
to share our friends, not become the words against neighbors.
Greed wasn't what we intended at all. The food pantry
was that was a hard one to get to get equitable.
(12:17):
Somebody would donate a couple dozen canned hams, which is
a very desired commodity. Well, we got fifty people standing
in line. How do you allocate those equitably, and somebody
gets canned corn and somebody else gets pickled beats. Well,
(12:37):
like o'luell said, the system demands gratitude. You expect folk
to say thank you, but just underneath the surface, you
just didn't know what the feelings were.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
And now a few messages from our general sponsors. But first,
please consider signing up to join the Army at Normalfolks
dot us. By signing up, you'll receive a weekly email
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(13:18):
reading about our incredible guests. Please sign up. The more numbers,
the more impact. We'll be right back. You know, when
(13:40):
I'm listening to Bob one of my first I can't
help but go back to after Undefeated was released and
before the Academy Awards, after it did so well, to
the south By Southwest Festival. We got invited to a
bunch of film festivals Toronto, New York, all of them,
(14:04):
and we were at the New York City Film Festival.
And this is only forty five days before the before
the Oscars, and we were just now starting to get
some Oscar buzz. And the way these film showings work
is they show the film, the audience watches film, and
then afterwards, those involved in the film come up on
(14:26):
stage and they go through a thirty or forty five
minute Q and a, and film showed. I'd done a
few ways, you know, after south By Southwest, I'd done
a few so I kind of knew what to expect.
And the questions were typically, you know, are you still
in touch with the boys where they now? How did
(14:48):
the team do the following season? How did you do
the following season? You know, how did you feel when
Montreal got a scholarship? Same really kind of questions. This
time was different, though, when when we got up and
we sat in the chairs up on stage and the
lights went up and the questions came, a woman in
(15:10):
the back stood up and asked this question, Coach Bill,
how do you respond to those of us who watch
this film and think of it as nothing but yet
(15:30):
another paternalistic trope? Alex, I didn't even know what heard.
I didn't I'm the guy that wants to answer every
question and really have honest discourse with people about everything,
and I was so naive. I didn't even understand I'd
(15:52):
never heard the word paternalistic or paternalism in my life
at that point, and I Paul, and I fear that
the pause means I admit to the people in the
audience that I was afraid to answer the question. I
wasn't the case at all. I didn't even understand the question.
I didn't even know what the words were. And Dan,
(16:14):
one of the directors, looked at TJ, the other director,
who those two guys are from la and they certainly
knew what the question was. And TJ began to answer
on my behalf, and he said some really kind things
about me. And as I, as I listened to the answer,
(16:39):
I started to understand what paternalism was. And sitting here
listening to Bob reminds me of that so much to
this day, that so much of what we do we
have to be very careful not to come off paternalistically.
(17:02):
And I mean, people will take what you have when
they're starving or they have nothing, But are they truly
appreciative of what you're doing, and are you doing it
for the right reasons or are you actually subjecting them
to paternalism? Are you actually they're taking it because they
(17:27):
need it? But you're embarrassing them and the work that
you're doing by the way you're approaching them. And I
think it's a fair question. I mean, have you ever
considered that, Alex.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Oh, Yeah, you're going to love everything Bob's about to share.
We're about to get much deeper into it, and I
think all the listeners are and you are going to
be excited about the solutions that he propose us to us.
So there are better ways we can do these things.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, the paternalistic things are real deal. I've sometimes argued
that government programs many I'm not want to sweep a
too broader brush, but many government programs are the epitome
of paternalism in that. And I really do think most
(18:10):
government programs to help the needy had a wholesome, real intent,
and either as happens in bureaucracies, they've morphed into something
they weren't originally intended or they've outlived their usefulness. But
(18:31):
because so many people depend on them, it makes them
very hard to change. But when somebody, when a person
in our world has to have what the government's doling
out just to sustain the basics of life, but if
(18:56):
they achieve a little bit of a higher level, they
lose that sustenance from the government, but ultimately by making more,
they get less because they're not high enough over the
line of sustenance to actually make enough to make up
(19:20):
for what they would have gotten from the government. So
it's better to just sit below the line, so they
get the government stuff, which ultimately keeps them from ever
trying to achieve their way out of a hole. And
to me, that's a very definition of journalism, which is
(19:40):
you stay where you are and I'll give you enough
to keep you basically basically sustained, but don't you dare
try to lift yourself out of it, because if you do,
I'll pull that back. And I don't think at all
that that was the intent. I don't mean to say
that that was the intent of many of our government
program but effectively that's exactly all the work.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I think.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
What's interesting is, you know, we'll get into more here
with Bob is it's easy to dismiss the government programs
that like. The harder reflection is so many of our
charitable programs that a lot of us are giving money
to or doing the exact same thing, and they're treating
people as problems to be managed and not actually empowering
them to escape poverty.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I'll love it, let's continue.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
It led to disingenuous kind of relationships rather than deep
and genuine relationships, not at all what we had in mind.
We had in mind building community, building trust, bearing one
another's burdens. Service projects. That's one that if you're in
(20:47):
a community of need, you're a desired commodity, because everybody's
into service these days. Churches, serly, youth groups, schools, businesses,
everybody is into service. And of course in the community
(21:09):
of need, there's an endless array of things that need
to be done. And so I planned hundreds of those
weekend and sometimes longer involvements, volunteers coming in to do
to do really wonderful things that we needed. They patched
(21:32):
the roofs of home bound seniors, They built handicapped ramps,
neighborhood playgrounds, actually built some new homes like the Habitat model.
A lot of really good volunteer activity that I felt
very good about until one day we were I was
(21:57):
sitting on my front porch with my neighbor, Virgil across
the street. I forget what we were talking about. It
was a Saturday morning, and down the street in front
of in front of my house came a fourteen passenger
church van and they got in front of the house
(22:18):
and there were kids in there and they were they
were waving. They had obviously come to do a service
project in our community. And Virgil said something that that
really took me off guard. He said, you know, I
just hated when those volunteers come down here. I said, really,
He said, I I thought you liked volunteers. Volunteers built
(22:42):
your house. He said, oh yeah, he said they do good.
But he said they he said, they insult in They
don't even know they're insulting. He told me about one
woman that she was volunteer in the community. She came
into his house.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
And was just going on and on about how neat
and clean his house was. They said, I know she
didn't mean anything by it, but he says, I know
it's behind that that she was surprised that a black
family in the inner city wasn't living.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
In a hubble. And another woman that was raving about
how smart and well behaved his children were. He said,
he said, I know she didn't mean harm, but he says,
I know it's behind it that she was surprised that
my kids were different from the image that she has
(23:37):
of inner city black kids, that they're ignorant and rowdy.
He said, they had just insult you and they don't
even know it. Well, I'm going to tell you it
was a series of experiences like this that rocked my world.
(23:57):
I was there to do good and in fact was
ending up doing harm. I was spreading a kind of
toxin among my neighbors that I just had no awareness of.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
So it really started me down a road of introspection, saying,
I need to find a way to somehow detoxify what
we're doing. I thought we were helping. I need to
figure out how to stop hurting people and really helping.
(24:48):
And when I really looked at my own motivations, I
certainly did enjoy being in the position of the giver
that was I wouldn't want to change places. And so
I confirmed what o'lewell said, demand's gratitude. I started to
(25:11):
see a pattern that kept repeating itself over and over
again in the way we were doing our charity. If
I would give somebody something one time, it always elicited appreciation, surprise, delight,
(25:33):
oh Jay, thank you so much. If I gave somebody
something twice, I noticed that it started to create a
little anticipation. Oh, I wonder if this is something he does.
I wonder if this is some kind of a program
(25:55):
that he's going to start. If I gave somebody something
three times, it created an expectation. I know he does this.
I need to position myself so I'm in line for
the next installment that's coming, because there is an expectation
(26:16):
that this is going to continue. By the fourth time,
it's become an entitlement you owe me. I would like
a ham this Thanksgiving rather than a turkey Thank you.
I have a voice in this. This is a right.
(26:40):
And by the fifth time, it's just pure dependency. Can't stop.
Now we're counting on this, We're depending on this. I
saw that pattern repeating itself over and over again in
the way we were doing our charity, and I realized
that most of our charity was toxic. As We've got
(27:04):
to stop. We've got to we've got to find a
better way of serving. So the first thing I said
was we're cutting it out.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Wow, when you first saw that or heard that, what
was your response.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
I mean, I've never heard anyone formulate it that before
in terms of the you give once, you give twice,
and how the nature. I think he actually might even
have one more level after this I'm remembering, but it's
almost like you almost like hate the person on the
sixth level or anyways, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
It kind of rings of familiarity can breed contempts.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Contempt, So that's the word I was looking for.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, it kind of rings of And honestly, again, I
know we're talking about charity, but if you'll think about
the work we've tried to do socially as a social
construct within our government and our country, it's exactly what
(28:10):
he says. You end up creating dependency. And when you
create dependency, you strip the ability of the individual to
raise themselves up. So ultimately, through trying to do something nice,
if you approach it wrong, you cripple the very person
you seek to help.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Yeah, I mean, maybe I'm being a broken record here,
but I think like the harder thing to think about
is like I think I'll get a new more but
like souit cansons, food pantries, you know, some of the
homeless shelters, I mean the same exact dynamics can happen there.
We're serving the same people over and over and over
and over and over again. They're not Actually their lives
aren't getting better in any way. You've done it that
(28:50):
many times, you're breeding dependency and contempt.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
And neither is your life getting better in any way.
You've just become You can end up not doing it
because you really want to help, but now because you
just feel obliged, and that's also unhealthy. It's interesting, Okay, more.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yeah, Yeah, I mean there's other point too, of I
wouldn't want to switch who I am in this relationship.
That's where I know my intentions and motives are messed up,
Like I don't want to be the recipient. I like
having the power of being the giver. And you know,
I think a lot of us, you know, frankly feel
that way if we're honest with ourselves.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
It's interesting.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
And I realized that most of our charity was toxic.
Is we've got to stop. We've got to we've got
to find a better way of serving. So the first
thing I said was we're cutting it out. We're just
(29:54):
going to stop all these programs. And the only way
that we're gonna get of things out is when there
is a genuine emergency, and that's somebody gets burnt out
of their house or a calamity. A crisis then will
give but otherwise it's it's only in a time of crisis.
(30:20):
As soon as that word got out, the incidence of
crises skyrocketed. Everybody had a crisis. I said, no, wait
a second, Wait a second. There's a difference between what
is a real crisis and what is a function of
(30:42):
chronic need. A crisis that's when a calamity befalls somebody.
Chronic poverty is a matter of a series of decisions
that have been made. There's a difference. A crisis demands
(31:06):
an emergency intervention, no question about it. That's like when
an earthquake hits Haiti. That is a crisis, and so
we get in there with life saving medical supplies and
food and clothing and shelter, do anything that it takes
to stop the bleeding. That's the same thing in the States,
(31:31):
if a hurricane blows through or tornado or somebody's house
burns down, you get in there with emergency assistance. But
as soon as the bleeding has stopped, as soon as
all the medical supplies in the food have been distributed.
(31:52):
Now it's time to help folks start rebuilding. Now it's
shifts into chronic need. Rebuild their lives, rebuild their jobs,
rebuild their homes. That's development work. When you address a
crisis with a crisis intervention, lives are saved. It's absolutely
(32:19):
the right thing to do. On the other hand, if
you address a chronic need with a crisis intervention.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
People are harmed.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Let me give you an example of that. Do you
remember it's been ten years ago now when Katrina hit
New Orleans. Remember that sat on television every night, Folks
stranded on the top of buildings. That was a crisis.
And as a nation, we responded emergency assistance and it
(32:57):
did save lives. Indeed it did. It was not very
well organized, as I recall, but it was the right response.
I was in New Orleans last fall. You know what's
going on in New Orleans today, ten years later. There
are convoys of carrying people that drive into New Orleans
(33:22):
loaded down with emergency supplies to minister to the victims Oftrina.
Get the victims of Katrina. We've created a whole victim
class of people who are dependent for their livelihoods on
the ongoing outpouring of compassionate giving, and we've created a
(33:48):
community of dependency. An example of how people are harmed
when you continue to operate on a crisis intervention when
within six months after Katrina that should have shifted shifted
to development, helping folks rebuild their lives, certainly not become
(34:11):
dependent on charity. Why do we do it Well, it's easier.
Touches the heart. Makes us feel really good when we
are convinced that we're really helping folks in need. It's
(34:34):
just that our charity has gone largely unexamined, haven't looked
deeper than the surface. So we said, we've got to
We've got to change your model. We've got to change
the way we go about it. The for thing, we said,
(35:00):
we've got to narrow our focus. We can't serve the
poor on the whole South side of Atlanta, No way
you can have any kind of personal relationships or accountability
in that. So we're narrowing it down to our immediate neighborhood.
That way, we have the opportunity to build relationships with folks.
We get to know them on a personal level. They're
(35:22):
not objects of our charity programs. They're neighbors with names
and issues in their lives, not only needs, but also abilities.
And then we've got to change the way we view
our neighbors. Instead of seeing them as people in need,
(35:45):
we've got to start seeing them as people with resources,
people with talents, people with abilities.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
And that concludes one of our feature on Bob Lupton,
and you don't want to miss part two. It's now
available to listen to. Together, guys, we can change this country,
but it starts with you. I'll see you in part two.
We've got to change the way we view our neighbors.
Instead of seeing them as people in need, we've got
to start seeing them as people with resources, people with talents,
people with abilities, and that no one is so poor
(00:24):
in our community. No one is so poor that they
have nothing to contribute. Everybody has something to contribute in
the community.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father,
I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm a football coach an inner
City Memphis. And that last part, well, it actually led
to an oscar for a film about one of my teams.
It's called Undefeated. Guys, I believe are choose. Problems are
(01:01):
never going to be solved by a bunch of fancy
people in nice suits using big words that nobody ever
uses on CNN and Fox, but rather by an army
of normal folks. Y'all. That's us, just you and me deciding, Hey,
you know what, maybe I can help. That's what Bob Lupton,
(01:21):
the voice you just heard, has done. Bob and his
family moved into inner city Atlanta, where he learned the
hard lessons that most of his charitable work was toxic.
This led him to radically change how he showed up
and to write the best selling book, Toxic Charity that's
rocked the world of millions of Americans, and his story
(01:44):
is likely going to rock yours because I'm gonna tell
you something, a rocked bond. You'll hear this right after
these brief messages from our general sponsors. Well, everybody, today,
(02:10):
we have for you a very unorthodox episode for two reasons.
One my guest is not with me, and two Alex
hasn't done his job. So here's how that works. As
you guys know, every episode, we interview a normal person,
the dude you're about to be introduced to that we're
(02:32):
featuring today. In doing interviews anymore, I think he's had
as full of interviews. But he's a great guy and
his story's phenomenal. Giving the number of interviews he's done
at his age, he's aren't that right, But Alex just
loves this guy's story and message so much that he's
(02:53):
felt really compelled to bring it to our audience, our army,
and he loves it so much that we're about to
feature one of his talks and we'll comment on it
to be candid. I know a little bit about the
guy's story, but I have no idea what's coming in
this speech that we're going to listen to together and
comment on. And the second part I said, Alex has
(03:17):
given me zero prep. I think he wants me to
hear this for the first time, as you're listening to
it first time, so we can kind of have this
revealed to us together. Here's a little bit about Bob
Lovedon before we get into his talk. Bob has invested
over forty years of his life in inner city Atlanta.
(03:40):
In response to a call that he first felt while
serving in Vietnam. He left a budding business career to
work with delinquent urban youth. Bob and his wife, Peggy,
and their two sons sold their suburban home and moved
into the inner city, where they have lived and served
as neighbors among those in need. You talk about a
(04:03):
guy that burned the boat. Their life's work has been
rebuilding of urban neighborhoods where families can flourish and children
can grow into healthy adults. Bob is a Christian community
developer and entrepreneur who brings together communities of resources with
communities of need. Focused Community Strategies is the name of
(04:27):
an organization I think he founded, and through FCS Focused
Community Strategies, he has developed two mixed income subdivisions, organized
a multi racial congregation, started a number of businesses, created
housing for hundreds of families, and initiated a wide range
(04:47):
of human services in this community. He's the author of
several books, including the Widely Read which I actually owned
the book and haven't read it. I've opened it twice,
but now I have to the title. The book is
Toxic Charity, How churches and charities hurt those they help
(05:09):
and how to reverse it. Weeks of just the title
weeks of Turkey Person, and I have no idea if
that's really what it's about, but I will tell you
a friend, after hearing the Turkey person a story, bought
me this book, So it's got to be at least
interwoven the kind folks at Nyzorene Compassionate Ministries. They've been
(05:34):
really kind. They've allowed us to feature Bob's talk to
their group on our podcast, and as we listen to
it together, we'll comment as we go. So Alex roll tape. Hey,
I've always wanted to say that I feel like a corrector.
We go sounds goodbody.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
During that ten year period we had start did a
number of programs that I felt very good about. We've
got use of an old Presbyterian church that had closed
down and I got permission to set up our office
there and invite the community in for programs and worship,
(06:18):
and so we did. It started a good number of
what I felt very good about programs for our neighbors.
The one that created the most excitement was what we
called our adopt a Family program that was at Christmas
time and we would give the names of kids that
(06:42):
were not going to get anything for Christmas to carrying
people from around the city who would go shopping, and
then on Christmas Eve they would bring those toys to
the homes of the kids, and it created a lot
of excitement, as you can imagine. But the first year
(07:03):
that we were living in the neighborhood as neighbors, that
was really the first time I had the opportunity to
be in the homes of the recipient families when the
gift bearing families arrived, and I saw something that I
had just never noticed before. The kids, of course, they
(07:24):
were all exciteds like Santa Claus is coming. The moms
were gracious, little reserved, perhaps perhaps a little embarrassed. But
if there was a dad in a household, he just disappeared.
He went out the back door and it dawned. I mean,
what was happening was that these parents were being exposed
(07:48):
for their inability to provide in front of their kids,
and the moms would endure that indignity for the sake
of the kids. But it was just more than a
father's sense of pride could handle. It was as though
his impotence was being exposed in front of his wife
(08:09):
and kids in his own living room, killing them. I
never saw that before, and it made me wonder, are
the other programs that we are doing, the clothes closet,
the food pantry. It made me wonder, is this same
(08:32):
kind of indignity going on in the way we are
doing our charity. I was reading everything I could get
my hands on. In those days, there wasn't a lot
of literature. John Perkins hadn't written his book yet, and
I came across one author by the name of Jacques
(08:54):
l Lewell. He's a French philosopher, theologian, and and this
quote jumped off the page at me a little said, almsgiving,
that's the old word for charity. Almsgiving is Mammon's perversion
(09:15):
of giving. It affirms the superiority of the giver, It
finds the recipient and demands gratitude. It humiliates him and
reduces him to a lower state than he had before.
(09:36):
Can you see why that hit me right in heart?
That one why we were there to diminish anybody, certainly
not to humiliate anybody. We were there to affirm, to encourage.
And it sent me on a search through everything we
(10:00):
were doing. The clothes closet that was, that was an
easy one to start up. You know, we don't wear
out our clothes in this culture except the man. They
tend to a little bit. We gathered in clothes from
folks around the city and we had plenty of room
in that in the old Presbyterian church, and so we
(10:22):
invited the community in. We said, these are the free
gifts of God's people. They've been freely given. Help yourself,
And it was it was a beautiful spirit of sharing
until we actually opened the doors, and then folks came
charging in and grabbing up as many handfuls as clothes
(10:45):
as they could carry out, and then I'd find a
clothes scattered around outside, no place to try them on,
and realized, whoa this is? This is not good stewardship.
So we hastily drew up some rules and posted them.
Limit the number of garments per visit, limit the number
of visits per month. Well that was like saying, let
(11:10):
the games begin. Can we get some clothes for our
kids that are in school? Well that's reasonable. Can we
get some clothes for my sick uncle who can't get
in here today? You just know where this is going.
(11:31):
In no time, we were acting like temple police, guarding
the resources of the kingdom against the very folks we
were there to serve among. It turned into an adversarial
relationship almost overnight. Then why we were there. We were
(11:52):
there to share, to share our lives, to share our resources,
to share our friends, not become the words against neighbors.
Greed wasn't what we intended at all. The food pantry
was that was a hard one to get to get equitable.
(12:17):
Somebody would donate a couple dozen canned hams, which is
a very desired commodity. Well, we got fifty people standing
in line. How do you allocate those equitably, and somebody
gets canned corn and somebody else gets pickled beats. Well,
(12:37):
like o'luell said, the system demands gratitude. You expect folk
to say thank you, but just underneath the surface, you
just didn't know what the feelings were.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
And now a few messages from our general sponsors. But first,
please consider signing up to join the Army at Normalfolks
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(13:18):
reading about our incredible guests. Please sign up. The more numbers,
the more impact. We'll be right back. You know, when
(13:40):
I'm listening to Bob one of my first I can't
help but go back to after Undefeated was released and
before the Academy Awards, after it did so well, to
the south By Southwest Festival. We got invited to a
bunch of film festivals Toronto, New York, all of them,
(14:04):
and we were at the New York City Film Festival.
And this is only forty five days before the before
the Oscars, and we were just now starting to get
some Oscar buzz. And the way these film showings work
is they show the film, the audience watches film, and
then afterwards, those involved in the film come up on
(14:26):
stage and they go through a thirty or forty five
minute Q and a, and film showed. I'd done a
few ways, you know, after south By Southwest, I'd done
a few so I kind of knew what to expect.
And the questions were typically, you know, are you still
in touch with the boys where they now? How did
(14:48):
the team do the following season? How did you do
the following season? You know, how did you feel when
Montreal got a scholarship? Same really kind of questions. This
time was different, though, when when we got up and
we sat in the chairs up on stage and the
lights went up and the questions came, a woman in
(15:10):
the back stood up and asked this question, Coach Bill,
how do you respond to those of us who watch
this film and think of it as nothing but yet
(15:30):
another paternalistic trope? Alex, I didn't even know what heard.
I didn't I'm the guy that wants to answer every
question and really have honest discourse with people about everything,
and I was so naive. I didn't even understand I'd
(15:52):
never heard the word paternalistic or paternalism in my life
at that point, and I Paul, and I fear that
the pause means I admit to the people in the
audience that I was afraid to answer the question. I
wasn't the case at all. I didn't even understand the question.
I didn't even know what the words were. And Dan,
(16:14):
one of the directors, looked at TJ, the other director,
who those two guys are from la and they certainly
knew what the question was. And TJ began to answer
on my behalf, and he said some really kind things
about me. And as I, as I listened to the answer,
(16:39):
I started to understand what paternalism was. And sitting here
listening to Bob reminds me of that so much to
this day, that so much of what we do we
have to be very careful not to come off paternalistically.
(17:02):
And I mean, people will take what you have when
they're starving or they have nothing, But are they truly
appreciative of what you're doing, and are you doing it
for the right reasons or are you actually subjecting them
to paternalism? Are you actually they're taking it because they
(17:27):
need it? But you're embarrassing them and the work that
you're doing by the way you're approaching them. And I
think it's a fair question. I mean, have you ever
considered that, Alex.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Oh, Yeah, you're going to love everything Bob's about to share.
We're about to get much deeper into it, and I
think all the listeners are and you are going to
be excited about the solutions that he propose us to us.
So there are better ways we can do these things.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, the paternalistic things are real deal. I've sometimes argued
that government programs many I'm not want to sweep a
too broader brush, but many government programs are the epitome
of paternalism in that. And I really do think most
(18:10):
government programs to help the needy had a wholesome, real intent,
and either as happens in bureaucracies, they've morphed into something
they weren't originally intended or they've outlived their usefulness. But
(18:31):
because so many people depend on them, it makes them
very hard to change. But when somebody, when a person
in our world has to have what the government's doling
out just to sustain the basics of life, but if
(18:56):
they achieve a little bit of a higher level, they
lose that sustenance from the government, but ultimately by making more,
they get less because they're not high enough over the
line of sustenance to actually make enough to make up
(19:20):
for what they would have gotten from the government. So
it's better to just sit below the line, so they
get the government stuff, which ultimately keeps them from ever
trying to achieve their way out of a hole. And
to me, that's a very definition of journalism, which is
(19:40):
you stay where you are and I'll give you enough
to keep you basically basically sustained, but don't you dare
try to lift yourself out of it, because if you do,
I'll pull that back. And I don't think at all
that that was the intent. I don't mean to say
that that was the intent of many of our government
program but effectively that's exactly all the work.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I think.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
What's interesting is, you know, we'll get into more here
with Bob is it's easy to dismiss the government programs
that like. The harder reflection is so many of our
charitable programs that a lot of us are giving money
to or doing the exact same thing, and they're treating
people as problems to be managed and not actually empowering
them to escape poverty.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I'll love it, let's continue.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
It led to disingenuous kind of relationships rather than deep
and genuine relationships, not at all what we had in mind.
We had in mind building community, building trust, bearing one
another's burdens. Service projects. That's one that if you're in
(20:47):
a community of need, you're a desired commodity, because everybody's
into service these days. Churches, serly, youth groups, schools, businesses,
everybody is into service. And of course in the community
(21:09):
of need, there's an endless array of things that need
to be done. And so I planned hundreds of those
weekend and sometimes longer involvements, volunteers coming in to do
to do really wonderful things that we needed. They patched
(21:32):
the roofs of home bound seniors, They built handicapped ramps,
neighborhood playgrounds, actually built some new homes like the Habitat model.
A lot of really good volunteer activity that I felt
very good about until one day we were I was
(21:57):
sitting on my front porch with my neighbor, Virgil across
the street. I forget what we were talking about. It
was a Saturday morning, and down the street in front
of in front of my house came a fourteen passenger
church van and they got in front of the house
(22:18):
and there were kids in there and they were they
were waving. They had obviously come to do a service
project in our community. And Virgil said something that that
really took me off guard. He said, you know, I
just hated when those volunteers come down here. I said, really,
He said, I I thought you liked volunteers. Volunteers built
(22:42):
your house. He said, oh yeah, he said they do good.
But he said they he said, they insult in They
don't even know they're insulting. He told me about one
woman that she was volunteer in the community. She came
into his house.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
And was just going on and on about how neat
and clean his house was. They said, I know she
didn't mean anything by it, but he says, I know
it's behind that that she was surprised that a black
family in the inner city wasn't living.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
In a hubble. And another woman that was raving about
how smart and well behaved his children were. He said,
he said, I know she didn't mean harm, but he says,
I know it's behind it that she was surprised that
my kids were different from the image that she has
(23:37):
of inner city black kids, that they're ignorant and rowdy.
He said, they had just insult you and they don't
even know it. Well, I'm going to tell you it
was a series of experiences like this that rocked my world.
(23:57):
I was there to do good and in fact was
ending up doing harm. I was spreading a kind of
toxin among my neighbors that I just had no awareness of.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
So it really started me down a road of introspection, saying,
I need to find a way to somehow detoxify what
we're doing. I thought we were helping. I need to
figure out how to stop hurting people and really helping.
(24:48):
And when I really looked at my own motivations, I
certainly did enjoy being in the position of the giver
that was I wouldn't want to change places. And so
I confirmed what o'lewell said, demand's gratitude. I started to
(25:11):
see a pattern that kept repeating itself over and over
again in the way we were doing our charity. If
I would give somebody something one time, it always elicited appreciation, surprise, delight,
(25:33):
oh Jay, thank you so much. If I gave somebody
something twice, I noticed that it started to create a
little anticipation. Oh, I wonder if this is something he does.
I wonder if this is some kind of a program
(25:55):
that he's going to start. If I gave somebody something
three times, it created an expectation. I know he does this.
I need to position myself so I'm in line for
the next installment that's coming, because there is an expectation
(26:16):
that this is going to continue. By the fourth time,
it's become an entitlement you owe me. I would like
a ham this Thanksgiving rather than a turkey Thank you.
I have a voice in this. This is a right.
(26:40):
And by the fifth time, it's just pure dependency. Can't stop.
Now we're counting on this, We're depending on this. I
saw that pattern repeating itself over and over again in
the way we were doing our charity, and I realized
that most of our charity was toxic. As We've got
(27:04):
to stop. We've got to we've got to find a
better way of serving. So the first thing I said
was we're cutting it out.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Wow, when you first saw that or heard that, what
was your response.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
I mean, I've never heard anyone formulate it that before
in terms of the you give once, you give twice,
and how the nature. I think he actually might even
have one more level after this I'm remembering, but it's
almost like you almost like hate the person on the
sixth level or anyways, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
It kind of rings of familiarity can breed contempts.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Contempt, So that's the word I was looking for.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, it kind of rings of And honestly, again, I
know we're talking about charity, but if you'll think about
the work we've tried to do socially as a social
construct within our government and our country, it's exactly what
(28:10):
he says. You end up creating dependency. And when you
create dependency, you strip the ability of the individual to
raise themselves up. So ultimately, through trying to do something nice,
if you approach it wrong, you cripple the very person
you seek to help.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Yeah, I mean, maybe I'm being a broken record here,
but I think like the harder thing to think about
is like I think I'll get a new more but
like souit cansons, food pantries, you know, some of the
homeless shelters, I mean the same exact dynamics can happen there.
We're serving the same people over and over and over
and over and over again. They're not Actually their lives
aren't getting better in any way. You've done it that
(28:50):
many times, you're breeding dependency and contempt.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
And neither is your life getting better in any way.
You've just become You can end up not doing it
because you really want to help, but now because you
just feel obliged, and that's also unhealthy. It's interesting, Okay, more.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yeah, Yeah, I mean there's other point too, of I
wouldn't want to switch who I am in this relationship.
That's where I know my intentions and motives are messed up,
Like I don't want to be the recipient. I like
having the power of being the giver. And you know,
I think a lot of us, you know, frankly feel
that way if we're honest with ourselves.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
It's interesting.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
And I realized that most of our charity was toxic.
Is we've got to stop. We've got to we've got
to find a better way of serving. So the first
thing I said was we're cutting it out. We're just
(29:54):
going to stop all these programs. And the only way
that we're gonna get of things out is when there
is a genuine emergency, and that's somebody gets burnt out
of their house or a calamity. A crisis then will
give but otherwise it's it's only in a time of crisis.
(30:20):
As soon as that word got out, the incidence of
crises skyrocketed. Everybody had a crisis. I said, no, wait
a second, Wait a second. There's a difference between what
is a real crisis and what is a function of
(30:42):
chronic need. A crisis that's when a calamity befalls somebody.
Chronic poverty is a matter of a series of decisions
that have been made. There's a difference. A crisis demands
(31:06):
an emergency intervention, no question about it. That's like when
an earthquake hits Haiti. That is a crisis, and so
we get in there with life saving medical supplies and
food and clothing and shelter, do anything that it takes
to stop the bleeding. That's the same thing in the States,
(31:31):
if a hurricane blows through or tornado or somebody's house
burns down, you get in there with emergency assistance. But
as soon as the bleeding has stopped, as soon as
all the medical supplies in the food have been distributed.
(31:52):
Now it's time to help folks start rebuilding. Now it's
shifts into chronic need. Rebuild their lives, rebuild their jobs,
rebuild their homes. That's development work. When you address a
crisis with a crisis intervention, lives are saved. It's absolutely
(32:19):
the right thing to do. On the other hand, if
you address a chronic need with a crisis intervention.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
People are harmed.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Let me give you an example of that. Do you
remember it's been ten years ago now when Katrina hit
New Orleans. Remember that sat on television every night, Folks
stranded on the top of buildings. That was a crisis.
And as a nation, we responded emergency assistance and it
(32:57):
did save lives. Indeed it did. It was not very
well organized, as I recall, but it was the right response.
I was in New Orleans last fall. You know what's
going on in New Orleans today, ten years later. There
are convoys of carrying people that drive into New Orleans
(33:22):
loaded down with emergency supplies to minister to the victims Oftrina.
Get the victims of Katrina. We've created a whole victim
class of people who are dependent for their livelihoods on
the ongoing outpouring of compassionate giving, and we've created a
(33:48):
community of dependency. An example of how people are harmed
when you continue to operate on a crisis intervention when
within six months after Katrina that should have shifted shifted
to development, helping folks rebuild their lives, certainly not become
(34:11):
dependent on charity. Why do we do it Well, it's easier.
Touches the heart. Makes us feel really good when we
are convinced that we're really helping folks in need. It's
(34:34):
just that our charity has gone largely unexamined, haven't looked
deeper than the surface. So we said, we've got to
We've got to change your model. We've got to change
the way we go about it. The for thing, we said,
(35:00):
we've got to narrow our focus. We can't serve the
poor on the whole South side of Atlanta, No way
you can have any kind of personal relationships or accountability
in that. So we're narrowing it down to our immediate neighborhood.
That way, we have the opportunity to build relationships with folks.
We get to know them on a personal level. They're
(35:22):
not objects of our charity programs. They're neighbors with names
and issues in their lives, not only needs, but also abilities.
And then we've got to change the way we view
our neighbors. Instead of seeing them as people in need,
(35:45):
we've got to start seeing them as people with resources,
people with talents, people with abilities.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
And that concludes one of our feature on Bob Lupton,
and you don't want to miss part two. It's now
available to listen to. Together, guys, we can change this country,
but it starts with you. I'll see you in part two.
Host
Bill Courtney
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