June 6, 2023 • 47 mins
Tommy is the most famous police officer in America, with 2 million followers on Facebook and 1 million on Instagram. His radical and yet simple love for his community accidentally made him famous. However, that's not what motivates him and he's committed to staying in his same beat in North Little Rock, AR. Whatever your calling, his love will inspire you.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Three steps. If you can make it under someone's front lawn,
your front line is probably sacred. My front line is
pretty sacred. I'm on their front liwne. They're okay with it.
Next step is make it onto their front porch. You're
sitting on their front porch even more of a sacred area,
and you get invited into their living room and their
kitchen for lunch or breakfast or dinner. As a police
(00:27):
officer on shift, on shift, I've had many good candid yams,
some Thanksgiving dinner, a Coke zero, which is my drink
of choice, and so.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
On shift, you would developing up relationships. So they'd say,
come in and have lunch with me.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah, and how many if you see a police officer
walk into a house, Yeah, there's something kind of You're
not getting ready to sit down and have a big
plate of food. You're usually getting ready to walk out
with someone in handcuffs. Now, like I said, front yard first,
still front ports, and then come on in your family.
Now we're gonna feed you.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, a father, an entrepreneur,
and I'm a football coach in Inner City Memphis, and
the last part unintentionally led to an oscar for the
film about our football team. It's called Undefeated. I believe
our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch
(01:31):
of fancy people and nice suits talking big words that
nobody understands on CNN and Fox. Rather an army of
normal folks US, just you and me deciding hey, I
can help. That's what Tommy Norman, the voice we just heard,
has done. He's been called the Michael Jordan of community policing,
and Tommy's radical love for his community of North Little Rock,
(01:55):
Arkansas has led him to accidentally become the most famous
police officer the entire United States, with two point two
million followers on Facebook and a million on Instagram. But
as you're about to see, Tommy never sought fame and
it's definitely not his purpose on this earth. Let's get
(02:15):
started right after these brief messages from our general sponsors,
Tommy Norman, it is a honor to meet you, buddy.
Thank you for being here now.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I'm honored to be here to meet you, coach. I
really do appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
And it's I've been looking forward to hanging out with
you and learning more about you for sometime now. When
I heard that Alex and the production team booked you,
I was like, I can't wait to talk to this cat,
because You've got to screw this a little bit, don't you.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yes, I do somewhere.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So as you know, this is an army of normal
folks and there's not much. I mean, you're as normal
as they come. And I want our listeners to know
a little bit about you. So tell me about Tommy
the young man. Where Tommy comes from, how Tommy grow up?
Speaker 1 (03:15):
So North Little Rock, Arkansas. Little Rock is the capital
city of the state, around two hundred thousand population north
of the Rock. It is just north of Little Rock,
and it's around sixty seven thousand.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Is it a suburb? Would you consider it? Would you
consider it high end, blue collar?
Speaker 1 (03:31):
So it's not a suburb, it's its own, separate municipality.
I would say blue collar, high end, impoverished areas, all
that mixed into one city. Really, Yes, of seventy thousand, yes, yes,
So born and raised in North Rock, Arkansas, and six
sisters and two brothers, and I'm the youngest. I have
a twin sister and bill. For as far back as
(03:53):
I can remember, my mom always instilled in us to give,
whether that was to give to someone that didn't look
like us, someone that needed to pair of shoes or
shirt off of your back, just to be nice to people.
And you know, I followed that model my entire life.
I learned from the best. Who is my mom? And
she's actually still here. Six you said, six, six sisters,
two brothers, nine of you, Yes, nine including six brothers
(04:17):
and you nine nine.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yes, your mom has been given one thing for years.
That's birth, Yes, good grief and she what was it?
She what?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
She'd also adopted one of my sisters, Kathy, So Kathy
is included in that in that sixth So she has
eight kids and then she sees Kathy and she had
legally adopts Kathy. And but when you talk about love
and loving people, my mom is just the definition of that.
And I learned from the best, and that's what I've
(04:47):
been doing my entire life.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So, I mean, did you die Dad? Did he make
a lot of money? He was.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
He worked in carpentry kind of you know, worked with
lumber and wood, and he was really good with his hands.
He was a foreman, at a construction company, and he
would go around and kind of check on construction sites.
And he worked hard, really hard to help support the family.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
But with nine kids, I mean you couldn't have I
guess you would consider yourself blue.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Collar, yes, absolutely blue collar. Yes, my mom we didn't
have a lot. She had to make, you know, money stretch,
food stretch. But I mean we've all grown up to
be I think, productive citizens back in central Arkansas, and
we've all remained humble.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
So you must shared rooms.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yes, we slept sometimes two and three to a room.
My dad did add on to the house. Now, at
one point we had one bathroom.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
A carpenter at least can make the house.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
So at one point we had one bathroom. And you
know you're taking turns. I remember by the time.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I got how many of you were in the house.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
There were nine of us in the house with one bathroom.
Until my dad had to get up at three in
the morning get ready to go to school. Or if
I was the last in the bathroom, you had all
the fumes of hairspray and makeup everywhere. And you're right,
so get up early to beat your sisters to the
bathroom where you wait till the last.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, it spray on that out of your hand, say
you can breathe. I remember those days that equal that
would kill somebody. Graduate from what Old Main.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
It was Old Main High School back then in nineteen
ninety and so nineteen ninety I graduated. And at the time,
I'm a huge Michael Jordan fan. Still today love Michael Jordans.
So I'm thinking I want to be the next Michael Jordan.
I'm dribbling on basketball everywhere, dribbling with my left hand
because I'm right handed. If I went to the store,
I went to the rec center, you know I've got
a basketball. I would go out to Burns Park, It's
(06:47):
a big park in north of the Rock, and it
would be dark. So that turned the light switch on
to the to the light pole that illuminated the basketball court.
By Michael Jordan Posters magazines. Michael Jordan got a lot
of my money. It still gets something today. So when
I remember I tried out for the high school basketball
team at o Main High School, I made the first cut.
(07:10):
Coach Gary Goss was gonna make two cuts. I didn't
make the second cut. But what was so cool about
coach GOSSI is he knew how much I loved basketball
that he said I could be the statman for the team.
So I'm there with the clipboard keeping stats, and I
can picture this coach because you know, when the basketball
team gets ready to run out of the locker room
on to the court, I was the lead man with
(07:32):
the clipboard. I led the basketball team on to the court.
If I was going to be the next Michael Jordan
on the basketball court, let me be the best stat man.
Let me either be the Michael Jordan or the community.
I wanted to just to be the best, because to me,
Michael Jordan was the best. He gave it all, his
aulid everything that he did. My head is bald. You
(07:55):
see a shiny bald head. True story, coach, true story.
I shaved my today because of Michael Jordan because he
pretty much had a bald head some of his career.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
So I think it's safe to say you're a huge
Michael Jordan fav.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Not the biggest, but pretty big. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So, did something in your childhood or did an occasion
in your life what inspired you to be a police officer.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Well, it's a great question and I love telling the story.
So my uncle Don Wooton was a chief of police
in a small town in Arkansas called Hot Springs Village. Yeah, yeah,
so Hot Springs.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
That's where the horse track is, Yes, Oakland, Oakland, Yes,
so Hot Springs Village. Actually interesting side note, I think
didn't the didn't like the Chicago New York mob used
to hang out in Hot Springs, Arkansas.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I am very impressed. Yes, yes, a not a lot
of people know about that, but I mean it was
like before Vegas. It was a big mob stop. And
I believe that Babe Ruth even visited Hot Springs once.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
And and I think I think there's supposedly uh canals
or or like tunnels built through some of the that
the that the mob built the hot stuff had to
shuttle around. I mean, isn't that right?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, you're correct, you're correct. I don't know a lot
of the history behind that, but that is accurate that
a lot of the mobsters were there, you know, the gangsters.
And and then you know, if you talk about sports,
some of the biggest sports figures stopped through there.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And because of the Hot Springs themselves, yes, exactly, the
water was supposed to be Yeah, make sure something.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
People still go today and they get gallons of waters.
They'll come from all over the US just to get
some of that Hot Springs water and take it back
with them, some of the purest water ever.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
So crazy.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
All right, So your uncle uncle Don police, he was
a chief of police in Hot Springs village. And I
remember one summer visiting my uncle. Family reunion was pretty
much every summer at his house, and he had on
this uniform that was no wrinkles pressed, and he had
on his shiny police boots, and he wore a leather
gun belt and anytime he would walk around or get
(09:58):
out of the seat or get up and move, his
leather gum belt would squeak. And I thought the squeaky
leather gun belt was the coolest thing ever. I don't
know why. Yeah, I know, I.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Think anybody listening can identify with that noise, that that
patent shiny black leather and when it rubs on something,
it does that squeaking on it squeaks. Loved that.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
I just I don't know why. Today, but even today
I can picture my uncle Don, and you know he's
not here anymore. But if he walked, I didn't say
a word because I wanted to hear that leather gum
belt squeak to me. The squeak meant, all right, this
is my uncle. He's a chief of police of this town.
It's a pretty cool experience to see him. That was
one of the reasons I want to be a police officer.
(10:41):
But I never thought that I had what it took
to be a police officer, because back then, all I
really knew was police officers pulled people over, they wrote
people tickets, and they took people to jail. When I
told some of my close friends of my family that
I wanted to apply to be a police officer in
North of the Rock, some of them weren't as support
because they thought that if I became a police officer,
(11:02):
it would take away what I was my entire life,
and that was loving and giving. So in early nineteen
ninety eight, I see that there is an opening to
be a Northrop police officer. Now, back then, Coach, it's newspapers,
the print paper that's where you saw openings of jobs.
Now it's all live. Yeah, they're classified. So I apply
(11:24):
and not thinking i'd get a call. So I apply
and they call me in for an interview. This kind
of resembles the interview table. I'm sitting here. There's three
officers over here, and they asked me a question, why
do you want to be a police officer? And I
paused because the answer that I had tucked away in
my heart was I want to love people. I want
(11:47):
to care for people. I want to part my police
car and get out at given the opportunity and just
talk to people. I want to get on people's front
lawns or front porches and ultimately going to their homes
if enough trust is built. So the clock is ticking.
It's quiet in there, and I'm afraid if I give
that answer, which I think maybe was a cheesy answer,
(12:07):
they're not going to hire me, because they're not looking
for a guy that's trying to get out here and
care about people. So the answer I gave them was
I want to pull people over, I want to write
people tickets. I want to take people to jail. All right,
that's the answer I gave them. A got the job,
well hold on. So so finished that, and I kept
(12:28):
getting all these calls physical fitness tests. Got a call
or a letter in the mail, you passed it. Background check. Now,
background checks for police officers. They talk to everybody. They
talked to the neighbors that you're living next to. Now,
the neighbors you lived previously to, they talked to your job,
and now if they didn't do it back then. But
I want to include this for anyone that's listening, not
(12:50):
just law enforcement, but any line of work. They check
your social media's that's that's a big one.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Talk to kids, kids. I've coached my own kids that
one stupid post can screw up a lifetime of opportunity
if you're not careful. Exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
And so at the time, I'm working at Pinnacle Point
Hospital in Little Rock, Arkansas. I'm a mental health worker.
It was around April to nineteen ninety eight, and I
get a call. It was a police recruiter. Her name
was Sergeant Armstrong, and she says, mister Norman, we got
good news. You've been hired at the North of Rock
Police Department and you need to report June fifteenth. So
June fifteenth, nineteen nine of backflips. I was so excited.
(13:27):
I was actually in the gym playing basketball with the
kids at the hospital and when I hung up that phone,
I probably could have dunked that basketball. I was that excited.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
So what about do I got a question. Was your
uncle alive at the time still, yes, Had you spoken
to him about what it was like to be a cop?
What it was really like. I mean, if you're a
I would think, if you're applying and you're really trying
to be a cop, you've got this cool resource, a
guy that you've idolized since you were a kid. Did
(13:59):
you talk to him about I did?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
He encouraged me, and I struggled with once again, if
I put on that uniform, can I still get out
and do what I was raised to do? And that's
part of that story will come later. But so I
was excited. So I called my friends, my family, Hey,
I got the job. I'm going to be a police
officer in the city that helped raise me. So at
(14:22):
the time, I was a homebody. I was married to
my son and my daughter's mom, and I didn't like
being away from home. So the police academy I just
I was. I don't know, I got homesick a lot.
I just think because we were so close as a family,
I was so used to being home. I remember I
went to Nolan Richardson's basketball camp in favor of Arkansas,
(14:43):
and my dad gave me this calling card that had
so many minutes on it, and I maxed that thing
out within the first day calling back home because I
was just I was. I just loved being home. So
the police academy was in Camden, Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Let me ask something, do you There has to be
a reason for that, Tommy, And.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
You're right, and I don't. And I've been asked before,
why did you get homesick?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Do you still get home sick?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
No? I'm good now. Yeah, I mean with the platform
God has blessed me with, I've traveled all over you
and I don't get homesick. I don't know if I was,
if I was younger. I will say this, and this
may come off kind of funny, but it's not. But
my mom would always nurture us, even as adults today.
If I told my mom, Mom, I'm getting my tee
clean next week, she'd want to be there at the
chair watch me get my teeth clean. So I don't
(15:32):
tell her when I'm getting my tee clean.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Nine kids, and she's still she's a special person.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
She is and she's gonna Mom, if you're listening, I
love you. I think she's the reason I got homesick.
I've never really been asked that question and have to
answer it, but I really feel like.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
You have to answer it. That's a pretty record. I
have to answer all questions.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
And I will. I feel like that the love that
my mom showed us, and she loved us so much,
I didn't want to be too far away from her.
You felt a real sense of longing at home, and
I still do. I'm still a mama's boy, fifty years old.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Coach Well, and the thing is, I think about, you know,
nine kids in one bathroom. You're either gonna be really
kind and supportive and close, or you're gonna hate each
other's guts, because that's a lot of selflessness, fighting over
just your little corner of space in the world. And
(16:29):
a home like that. What was what was the dynamic
at home going up?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Well, there were a few knockdowns. There were there was
a few knockdown dragouts. My mo mom had this brown
leather belt, oh boy, and I'm glad that leather belt
just went missing. I won't I won't say what happened
to the leather belt. But if you ever re late
getting home, if you ever smarted off, if you didn't
say yes, ma'am ory, yes, sir, And you never said, huh,
(16:57):
you don't say hung around my mom, yep, And she
would whoop that.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
We uh.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Not even but it would the belt would come across
your face, I mean whatever she could get right. Thank
god we didn't call Child Protective Services back because but
my mom, that's how we ended up the way we
are today.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Let me tell you something. I've got four kids. They
are now twenty seven, twenty six, twenty five, and twenty four,
meaning they were one, two, three, and four. Now there
wasn't nine of them, but there are four and four years.
And I was working growing my business, coaching football, and
so I was seventy eighty hours a week working. Now,
when I was home, I was home, and I wasn't
(17:37):
I'm not saying I was a dad that wasn't there,
but Lisa was alone with kids a lot, and with
four kids that close to each other. You know your
mama had a belt, Well, my wife had a wooden spoon,
and my wife kept a wooden spoon in her person
all times. She had three wooden spoons. One was on
the night stand, one was at her person all times.
(17:59):
She kept one under advisor of her car. And you
might not like this as a safety patrol officer running
around seeing people drive like this, But my wife could
drive with her left hand doing sixty down the interstate
and smack kids in the rear back seat of a
suburban with a wooden spoon and not vesa beat. I
have seen. I have seen my family drive up in
(18:21):
my driveway and all four kids are kind of plastered
up against the sidewalls of the back of the thing
to avoid the reach of the wooden spoon. So I
guess I could identify with your mom. When she'd had enough.
She probably looked like an octopus with that butt leather
belt well y all scattering like hell too.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
And then I learned to put the book in the
back of my pants. But now you just told the
story about Lisa. I think I'd prefer the leather belt
over that wooden spoon.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
That wouldn't spoon. I mean, I could hear that thing
slapping two rooms away. So yeah, so it's followed by
some squalling by one or four kids. Yeah, But at.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
The end of the day, she loved us, and when
we woke up the next morning, she loved us. And
I feel like thinking about it right now, sitting here
across from you, that that's probably one of the reasons
that I didn't like being away from home, because I
just counted so much on my mom and my family
and acceptance. Well, yes, we'll be right back. So I'm
(19:30):
at the police academy. It's a twelve week academy. Halfway through,
I give into the homesickness. I pack up, and I'm
driving back home. I just told the instructors at the
police academy when my kids were sick. I lied, and
halfway back home, I call my mom, said, Mom, I
want to get a job that requires me not to travel.
I can go back to work at Pinnacle Point, I
(19:51):
can be a mental health worker, go to nurse. I
thought about being a nurse. I go to nursing school.
I'll make it work. She said, pull over right now.
She said. You want to always make your family proud.
You've always want to be a police officer. You want
to make your uncle Don proud. She said, You're turned around.
You're going back to the police academy.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
And I did.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I went back and crawled back in bed.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
It's interesting that you caught your mom and not your wife.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yes, yes, exactly. My wife may have said, Okay, come
on back home, right, But there's only one mom out there,
and that woman knew I was going to regret that
decision and I went back. And you know the story
now behind that is really really powerful.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I mean, that's a real turning point in your life,
because if your mom had said, no, baby, I love you,
come on home, your life's trajectory would be one hundred
and eight degrees effort than it is today.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
And I thought, Coach that if I would have gave
into that homesickness and kept on traveling and not called
my mom until the next day and there's no going back. Then,
you know, if I say, Okay, I want to come back,
they're not going to let me back at the police academy, No,
you bolted, right, and would I thought, Well, then the
next days and weeks, when I didn't follow my dream
and I see these police officers and these police cars, Yeah,
(21:09):
I want to be in that police car. I want
to at least see what kind of difference can I
make in North of Rock, Arkansas with the badge in
a police car and more importantly, with a heart.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
You know, one of the purposes of the show is
to obviously one of them is to tell compelling stories
and hopefully, over time literally build an army of normal folks,
just normal people doing extraordinary things of their community that
(21:47):
maybe has an opportunity to change the trajectory of our
culture today. Now that's a moon mission. I mean, this
is a podcast where we talked to interesting people and
to interesting stories, and I have no idea of it's
going to have the legs or power to actually create
a movement, but it would be great if it did,
(22:07):
and that movement would be shepherded by people like you
and others whose stories we tell. But it's so important
that people listening to us understand when we're talking about
an army and normal folk, we're not talking about people
born into wealthy families who have all kinds of advantages
(22:28):
and have the nice suits and live in the big
houses and appear on Fox and CNN and all of that.
You know, because those people have been in charge for decades,
and I think we can look at largely their success
(22:48):
in our society and say that their efforts have been
woefully inadequate. Our government a lot of places that I
just I get so frustrated with all the power and
ability that ends up doing a lot of self serving
for them work and leaves a lot of folks wanting.
(23:15):
So for an army and normal folks to work, we
have to establish it's an army of normal folks. And
to hear your story to grow up with one bathroom
and a mom who loves you and a blue collar
dad who you know by all practical purposes, Tommy, you
were poor. You just didn't know it because that's all
(23:37):
you knew. And to hear that you wanted to be
a cop because of your uncle in Hot Springs, and
then you finally get the opportunity, and halfway through it
you pack up your car and you leave because you're homesick.
I mean, those are just real struggles. But that's what
normal people go through, isn't it. Yes, it's just a
normal dude. Yes, just a normal dude with your own
(24:00):
insecurities and your own homesickness and everything else. You side
a dream, but you're just a normal dude. And the
point is we all struggle with weird stuff. And your mom,
who knew you best, said pull your drawers up and
get your back to camp, exactly what she said, and
(24:23):
change the trajectory of your life because you listen to
your mom to overcome your own insecurities. I mean, I
think that's a beautiful thing, and I think it says
it should say to everybody listening to this right now
has insecurities. Because we're human beings. We have them. Everybody
has something they have to overcome. And sometimes it's just
(24:45):
as much as putting your head down to the side
and I'm gonna get this head on and so that's
what you did.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
And code something else to add on to my homesickness
was I kind of always question as a police officer,
can I even make a difference, because you know, so
if I'm leaving because I'm homesick, I'd already been questioning,
you know, can police officers do more than righte tickets
and take people to jail? And I didn't know yet
because I haven't worked one minute on the street. So
(25:13):
I gave into those insecurities until my mom.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, you let the doubt, you let the doubt cloudshit.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
So homesickness and the icing on the cake that not
I started to drive back home was okay. I've kind
of questioned, anyway, is this occupation? Is it going to
change you? I don't want it to change who I am.
My mom taught me our entire life, you better not
forget where you came from. So I had two confirmations
in my mind. I'm homesick and maybe this is not
what I want to do anyway.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Because I may not be able to be me with
this badge on exactly, which is what we're going to
get to in a little Yes, So I guess you
turn around because your mom had told you to, and
she still had a belt at that time, even though
you've grown.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Eggs, she would have still used it police officer or not?
Would she would still let me?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
And you go back and you graduate, Yes, And what
year do you become a full fledged policeman?
Speaker 1 (26:08):
So nineteen ninety eight, graduated from the academy, probably towards
the end of the year. And when you graduate from
the academy, you come back and you train for six
months with a field training officer.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Meaning you're riding.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
You're riding with someone and eventually they'll let you drive
and they kind of monitor you and observe you. And
after six months, here's a key, here's a police car.
You're on midnight shift. Your day's offer Tuesday Wednesday. Now
I'm excited I finally get to get out in the
community and the police.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I have a question because I really don't know, and
I imagine most ton't. I've actually always wondered this. So
when they say, here's your key, here's your police car,
here's your shift, go, do you have a like a
set coordinates of a part of a city that you
quote patrol or do you can you go anywhere?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Now you're assigned what we call a certain beat.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
A beat, beat beat, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah beat.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
So the beat that I was assigned to was the
beat that I wanted. I grew up in North Rock
and it was what we call downtown North Rock in
some areas that are impovers, families that are poor, families
that have really never been given a chance.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I gotta believe that's one of the more danger series. Though.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Yes it's definitely not a walk in the park. But
that's what you want, what I wanted, That's what I wanted.
But I'm a midnight shift coach. Everybody's asleep. I want
people that are awake, people that I can interact with.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
So you wanted that, you wanted that beat, but you
didn't want that shift.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
With seniority you're not going to get the hours you want.
So this is where I hope people listening to this
pay real close attention because it gets even more powerful.
So after a couple of years, I'm on second shift,
still not with the best days.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I'm at second.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Chef two pm to ten pm.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Okay, love it.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
There's cars, there's people outside, there's kids. So what I
do initially is I part my police car one time
allowed and I would walk different streets and talk to people.
Some people would wait back, some people would engage with me.
Some people would turn their backs and go inside their houses.
There's this new police officer assigned to our neighborhood. What
is he doing walking down the street. What is he
(28:26):
doing wanting to say hi to us?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I think the initial reaction of anybody is when you
see a cop walking down the street, something bad's happened or.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
About to happen, exactly exactly. And so I was a
little discouraged. But I'm telling myself, Okay, you finished the academy,
this is what you wanted to do. You get back
out the next day, in the next week, and the
next month and the next year.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
And I did.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I remember one evening right before dark, I part my
police car on a church parking lot and I start walking.
This is probably within the first five years of my career.
And after a few minutes, I looked to the right,
there's a line of kids on the right. I looked
to the left. There's a line of kids on the left.
And we're walking like an army. And I'm smiling, thinking
(29:14):
this is working. In two thousand and five, I'm a
seven year officer. My shift ended at two pm. By
that time, I was on day shift. A gentleman in
Little Rock, Arkansas called the police department and said he
was urgent that he saw me. It couldn't wait, so
I go over to the Little Rock. This gentleman is homeless.
(29:34):
He's sitting in front of a payphone at the gas station.
I sit down next to him. I'm still in uniform.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Old older. This homeless guy called the police and wanted
to see you.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yes, but in Little Rock. I work at North Little Rock.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Okay, so can you do that? Can you cross?
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Well, I'm off work, you know. I did tell my
supervisor he I want to go over here and see
what this guy wants. But yeah, I still in uniform.
I drive over and I get out and sit down
next to him, and after five minutes of convers he
tells me he's a murder suspect inside a homeless camp.
A week before this, he beat a man to death
(30:08):
with a piece of two by four and I remember
seeing the story on the news and they were looking
for this guy. So I get on my radio, I
call my dispatch. They call Little Rock police. They're showing
up within a matter of minutes. And one of the
first things an officers said when I got out of
his police cars, how did you find this guy? We've
been looking for him and he found you. My response
(30:31):
was I didn't find him, he found me. So they
lift him up, put him in handcuffs, a very peaceful arrest.
But I could not let them drive away with this
guy until I asked him this question. Sir, you never
met me before. Why do you call me to turn
yourself in? He said he was afraid that it was
(30:53):
so exhausting to hide from the police. He asked another
homeless guy in Little Rock, what can I do that
homeless guy I don't even know who he is today,
said call Tommy Norman a north of the Rock, and
you could surrender with dignitine respect. The moral of that
story is my reputation solved the murder.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
My reputation solved the murder. And it goes back to
my mom raising me to treat people. I don't care
if they were different color than I was. They didn't
have as much as we had. That was confirmation. Thank
god I turned around and went back to the police academy,
and thank god I followed my uncle Don's advice. My
seven years of just being nice to people, not slapping
(31:32):
handcuffs on people or taking people to jail, but seven
years of being nice to people took a murder off
the streets.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Well, let's first of all, it's amazing, probably the first
murder case ever solved because a cop was sweet. I mean,
that's phenomenal. But let's talk about the seven years that
led up to that and the ensuing years of your career. Now,
(31:58):
which is the extraordinary thing that you have done. Is
our culture today says that if your let's just be candid,
if you're black or brown or a minority, that you
(32:20):
know the first thing you do is fear a cop.
You fear that badge, you fear that uniform, You fear
the police because nothing good happens with the cops, and
so that that has become a cultural thing. I have
a really really good friend who I coached his sons
(32:42):
and my sons came up playing football together, and we
actually coached their like sixth and seventh grade football team
and in through seventh grade, actually third through seventh grade.
And the guy played in the NFL, and he is
now a executive with a pharmaceutical company. He lives in
(33:05):
a really nice suburb of Memphis and a forty five
hundred square foot house, and his kids go to very
expensive private schools. I mean, by all practical purposes. He's
upper end, wealthy cat who's done really really well. And
he's black and his sons are black, but he's on
the very high end of the socioeconomic scaling. He and
(33:28):
I are are tight. We're buddies. And I asked him
when his oldest son was first driving, you know, how
it was going, and he said, well, you know, he's
going well. His insurance good, he had ninety REX. He's
doing good. And he said, but I did have to have,
you know, the talk with him. And I said that,
(33:51):
what do you mean the talk? And he said, man,
I forget you're white. And I'm like, what are you
talking about? I'm white and he said, well to talk
about how to act if an officer pulls him over.
And I'm like, dude, he's you live out in the suburbs,
(34:12):
You're driving around a nice car. This kid's got you know,
he's squared away. He's not you know, what's he got
to be worried about. And he looked at me like
I was a fool and he said, man, to have
worked so much in the inner city and to be
so in tune with what's going on, he said, it
shocks me how naive you can be sometimes. That's what
(34:32):
he said to me, and I'm like, what are you
talking about? He said, my son's black. And he said
black folks, when they get pulled over by the cops,
have a lot greater potential to have bad things happen
than new white people. And I said, do you really
believe that? And he said, I don't believe it. I've
(34:53):
lived it. And I'm going to tell you. When I
heard that, it really bothered me because I didn't believe it.
And that kid I've known since he was in third grade. Hell,
he's better mader than my own sons. I'd have traded
my two kids for that one kid. He was that
good a kid, you know what I mean, And I
mean he was. He was a great kid. And I
(35:15):
couldn't ever imagine him being pulled over and being treated
in a bad way just because he was black. And
then it happened. He got pulled over, and it was
near the school, and my sons and some of their
friends saw them get pulled over, and they pulled my
(35:38):
kid's friends pulled over in a parking lot not far
from where it was, and they got their phones out,
and all he was doing was he took a turn
without a blinker, and they pulled him over. They made
him get out, They searched him, They spread him on
the car and searched them. They looked all through the car,
(35:58):
they went through the truck, asked him not if he
had anything on him, but said specifically, where you hide
in your weed, and treated him with and a an
assumption that was in nowhere near in line with with
(36:20):
who he was as a kid. And my kids had
been pulled over plenty of times in our suburb and
never asked to do anything but show them their driver's license,
and my kids came home and said, man, it is different,
and that's heartbreaking to me. And but with that story
(36:46):
in my consciousness, which I will never forget, I think
about a white dude who's a cop, park in his
car in a predominantly African American part of North Little
Rock and walking down the sidewalk. I get what the
(37:07):
the man did seven years later, once you've established a relationship.
But I have to believe that most people are looking
at you like you were out of your damn mind
and none of them wanted anything to do with you
because they were afraid of you because of the reality
of their experience with white police. Now, is what I'm
(37:27):
saying true? Or is what I'm saying sensationalized?
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Now what you're saying is absolutely real life. It happens.
So I kind of skipped out on day one to two.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
I was going to go day one to It's cool.
It would would jump around how did I get there?
But I want to know what it was really like
for you those first six months. Forget everything that we're
going to get to, everything that's happened, because that's inspiring
and beautiful and hopeful. But I'm just from from my
(38:00):
experience with my children and my children's friends, and what
I now know to be true that as a person
who works in the inner city, I still didn't understand it,
and I finally do. I cannot imagine when those people
must thought you were out of your damn mind walking
up down the sidewalk as a white guy in a uniform,
(38:22):
and I can't imagine any of them warmed to you.
There had to have been a first. There had to
have been, you know, and I want to hear about that.
I want to understand how you broke through that cultural
expectation that you were the enemy.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
I came back. When I say I came back, coach,
is if I walk through this neighborhood to day, I
came back the next day. I think coming back and
keeping your promise and being that familiar face is one
of the big ways to kind of slowly but surely
chip away at these barriers that are between communities of
color and police officers, most specifically white police officers. And
(39:03):
when I say I come back, is you know, you
meet a family, and you check on this family every day, and.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Then what do you mean you literally go up, knock
on the door and say.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Oh, you exchange numbers. Even on your day off. You
call them, Hey, it's officer Norman. How's it going. You
ask them you.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Should call people on your day off.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Oh, absolutely absolutely. We're family. We're I'll get to how
we became family. But your family. So you narrow it
down to one family. Now, I do things in the
masses and big, big numbers, but you narrow it down
the one. If you can change one family's perception of
police officers, I think you've done a pretty good job.
So you want to know where does a dad work,
(39:42):
where does a mom work, How are the kids doing
in school? You know, did someone just get married, does
someone just have a baby. Right, You don't just want
to know their license plate numbers and their addresses on
front of their house. You want to know what's behind
I want people to know what's behind my badge. I
want to know what's behind that address on that house.
What was really cool to me is after about the
first year of being a police officer.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
So it did take a year.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Oh it took a while because guess what, that badge
is not going to earn you trust and respect. It's not.
It's not for some people it will, but for people
in these communities that don't really trust police officers. Your
uniform is not going to cut it, your police car
is not going to cut it, but your heart will.
And you have to come back. So after the first year,
(40:25):
this one family, I get invited to a six year
old's birthday party. This little girl. We were buddies, we
became friends. But guess what I said yes to the invitation.
You think I wore my uniform. No, I don't want
people just to see me in my uniform. I wore
a pair of Levi's and a button down shirt and
(40:46):
I had the best time. You talked party like at
their house or sea.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
It was at their house.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
And if a police in your beat, in my beat.
But let me say this, there were people looking at
me because, first of all, Officer Norman showed up at
a birthday party and blue jeans and a button down shirt.
And just like you talked about, Coach, I've been to
multiple birthday parties, now, visits to children's hospital. I've been
(41:12):
the wedding, spoke at a few funerals. They forget when
you actually wear your uniform to one of these places,
you're still a police officer. Officer Norman and you talked about.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
So instead of seeing the badge first, now they see Tommas.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
And that was my goal. That has been my goal
since since day one. And I don't want to say
no that all these invitations you get, I think as
a police officer, you need to honor most of those
because if you go above and beyond and you're showing
up at birthday parties and people are sick and they
want you there, that is a humbling and a huge privilege.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Have you ever pulled up in those early years, You
ever pulled up on kids and they.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Just run off? Yes, run run from you?
Speaker 2 (41:55):
What was your reaction to them?
Speaker 1 (41:57):
First of all, chase them?
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Really?
Speaker 1 (41:59):
I mean if they're running from you for a reason.
I didn't know exactly what you were talking about. But no,
as far as as far as kids being scared, okay, yea.
So I have another story. I'm getting excited. I need
to slow down. So there's a story of a young
man and his siblings that are at a playground and
they see me coming and they run inside their apartment
(42:22):
public housing, and I see the door that this young
man goes in. When you say young men age eight
or nine, okay, and they bolt to their apartment and
they got in that back door fast. Now you know
why they've been taught when they see the cops to
haul properly. So I see the door, I get out
(42:43):
of my police car and I knock on the door.
It's a metal door, so it's a loud knock, and
the mom comes to the door. Is everything okay?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Off?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
So Norman, not really? Because I'm driving down the street
and your kids run into their apartment and I just
want to know why. And she called the kids.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
You just said why, Yeah, I just want to know why,
not in an accusing one. No, you really wondered, And I.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Told her that they haven't done anything wrong, and she
called them. There were four kids. She called them up
to the door and offer them, wants to know why
you ran from him? And they're scared of police officers.
That bothered me. That bothered me because I want them
to run. My goal has been my entire career is
I want kids to run to my police car, not
(43:30):
run from my police car. Now what could I have done?
I could have kept driving. Oh those kids ran for me.
I don't know why, but I stopped. It helped that
I saw what apartment they went in and they told
me they kept it as real as they could. As kids,
we're scared of police officers. So I made it a
point to.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
What did you say to him? Did you say? Did you?
I mean, I can imagine kneeling down, getting on one
knee on their level and looking at the eye and say, hey,
I'm officer Norman and don't be afraid of me. I'm
here for you.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
I mean, what did you It's one thing to say that,
but it's another thing to show that and prove that.
So I remember the address, and I kept coming back
and visiting the kids. Whenever they saw something about kids
is they remember the numbers to a police car. So
the I have a every police car has a number
on their police unit. Kids know me so well down
(44:22):
to the number of my police car, and they remember that.
Now that's that's pretty cool if you think about it.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
That is.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
And so you know these kids now it's been a
few years and I still see them. But my goal
was it's one thing to say you care about someone
and not to be scared, but you've got to show it.
You've got to show it.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
And so.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
That that was just a story of I don't kids,
you just keep going by, keep going by. Some of
the things I do. And you know, sometimes people will
kind of give me a hard time. But in the
trunk of my police car, it's toys, it's peanut butter crackers,
it's pop tarts, it's it's it's squeezed, it's it's not
you know, it's not swat gear, it's not you know,
battering rams. You know, it's still.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
It just dawned on me. You are you almost like
I mean, I know you wear a gun on patrol.
But the old Dady gripped the show, the sheriff that
wouldn't ever wear a gun on his holster. I mean,
you're carrying around stuff most cops don't care.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Round I mean it. And you know, my skin is
thicker today after twenty five years in law enforcement, but
early in my career, you know, people are he's giving
out pop tarts and peanut butter crackers. Absolutely, I am
for a few reasons. Sometimes that's all the food the
kids will get that day. And secondly, if this kid's
five years old, when he's twenty five years old, he's
(45:42):
going to remember that exchange from my hand to his
peanut butter crackers. It filled his belly and it made
him happy.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Well, that concludes part one of our conversation with Officer Norman,
and I really hope you'll listen to part two that's
now available. Trust me, this interview just keeps getting better.
But if you don't, make sure you join the Army
of Normal Folks at normalfolks dot us and sign up
to become a member of our movement. It only takes
(46:15):
committing to doing one new thing this year to help others.
And there will be a ton of awesome ideas on
this podcast when the folks were featuring, and some of
them will resonate with you deeply and others may not
at all, and that's okay. We're all called to do
different things with our different talents. By signing up, you'll
also receive a weekly email with a short episode summary
(46:36):
in case you happen to miss an episode or prefer
reading about our incredible guests. Together, with each of us
doing what we can, we can change this country. And
it starts with you. Lent it game
Three steps. If you can make it under someone's front lawn,
your front line is probably sacred. My front line is
pretty sacred. I'm on their front liwne. They're okay with it.
Next step is make it onto their front porch. You're
sitting on their front porch even more of a sacred area,
and you get invited into their living room and their
kitchen for lunch or breakfast or dinner. As a police
(00:27):
officer on shift, on shift, I've had many good candid yams,
some Thanksgiving dinner, a Coke zero, which is my drink
of choice, and so.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
On shift, you would developing up relationships. So they'd say,
come in and have lunch with me.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah, and how many if you see a police officer
walk into a house, Yeah, there's something kind of You're
not getting ready to sit down and have a big
plate of food. You're usually getting ready to walk out
with someone in handcuffs. Now, like I said, front yard first,
still front ports, and then come on in your family.
Now we're gonna feed you.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, a father, an entrepreneur,
and I'm a football coach in Inner City Memphis, and
the last part unintentionally led to an oscar for the
film about our football team. It's called Undefeated. I believe
our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch
(01:31):
of fancy people and nice suits talking big words that
nobody understands on CNN and Fox. Rather an army of
normal folks US, just you and me deciding hey, I
can help. That's what Tommy Norman, the voice we just heard,
has done. He's been called the Michael Jordan of community policing,
and Tommy's radical love for his community of North Little Rock,
(01:55):
Arkansas has led him to accidentally become the most famous
police officer the entire United States, with two point two
million followers on Facebook and a million on Instagram. But
as you're about to see, Tommy never sought fame and
it's definitely not his purpose on this earth. Let's get
(02:15):
started right after these brief messages from our general sponsors,
Tommy Norman, it is a honor to meet you, buddy.
Thank you for being here now.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I'm honored to be here to meet you, coach. I
really do appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
And it's I've been looking forward to hanging out with
you and learning more about you for sometime now. When
I heard that Alex and the production team booked you,
I was like, I can't wait to talk to this cat,
because You've got to screw this a little bit, don't you.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yes, I do somewhere.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So as you know, this is an army of normal
folks and there's not much. I mean, you're as normal
as they come. And I want our listeners to know
a little bit about you. So tell me about Tommy
the young man. Where Tommy comes from, how Tommy grow up?
Speaker 1 (03:15):
So North Little Rock, Arkansas. Little Rock is the capital
city of the state, around two hundred thousand population north
of the Rock. It is just north of Little Rock,
and it's around sixty seven thousand.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Is it a suburb? Would you consider it? Would you
consider it high end, blue collar?
Speaker 1 (03:31):
So it's not a suburb, it's its own, separate municipality.
I would say blue collar, high end, impoverished areas, all
that mixed into one city. Really, Yes, of seventy thousand, yes, yes,
So born and raised in North Rock, Arkansas, and six
sisters and two brothers, and I'm the youngest. I have
a twin sister and bill. For as far back as
(03:53):
I can remember, my mom always instilled in us to give,
whether that was to give to someone that didn't look
like us, someone that needed to pair of shoes or
shirt off of your back, just to be nice to people.
And you know, I followed that model my entire life.
I learned from the best. Who is my mom? And
she's actually still here. Six you said, six, six sisters,
two brothers, nine of you, Yes, nine including six brothers
(04:17):
and you nine nine.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yes, your mom has been given one thing for years.
That's birth, Yes, good grief and she what was it?
She what?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
She'd also adopted one of my sisters, Kathy, So Kathy
is included in that in that sixth So she has
eight kids and then she sees Kathy and she had
legally adopts Kathy. And but when you talk about love
and loving people, my mom is just the definition of that.
And I learned from the best, and that's what I've
(04:47):
been doing my entire life.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So, I mean, did you die Dad? Did he make
a lot of money? He was.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
He worked in carpentry kind of you know, worked with
lumber and wood, and he was really good with his hands.
He was a foreman, at a construction company, and he
would go around and kind of check on construction sites.
And he worked hard, really hard to help support the family.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
But with nine kids, I mean you couldn't have I
guess you would consider yourself blue.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Collar, yes, absolutely blue collar. Yes, my mom we didn't
have a lot. She had to make, you know, money stretch,
food stretch. But I mean we've all grown up to
be I think, productive citizens back in central Arkansas, and
we've all remained humble.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
So you must shared rooms.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yes, we slept sometimes two and three to a room.
My dad did add on to the house. Now, at
one point we had one bathroom.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
A carpenter at least can make the house.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
So at one point we had one bathroom. And you
know you're taking turns. I remember by the time.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I got how many of you were in the house.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
There were nine of us in the house with one bathroom.
Until my dad had to get up at three in
the morning get ready to go to school. Or if
I was the last in the bathroom, you had all
the fumes of hairspray and makeup everywhere. And you're right,
so get up early to beat your sisters to the
bathroom where you wait till the last.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, it spray on that out of your hand, say
you can breathe. I remember those days that equal that
would kill somebody. Graduate from what Old Main.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
It was Old Main High School back then in nineteen
ninety and so nineteen ninety I graduated. And at the time,
I'm a huge Michael Jordan fan. Still today love Michael Jordans.
So I'm thinking I want to be the next Michael Jordan.
I'm dribbling on basketball everywhere, dribbling with my left hand
because I'm right handed. If I went to the store,
I went to the rec center, you know I've got
a basketball. I would go out to Burns Park, It's
(06:47):
a big park in north of the Rock, and it
would be dark. So that turned the light switch on
to the to the light pole that illuminated the basketball court.
By Michael Jordan Posters magazines. Michael Jordan got a lot
of my money. It still gets something today. So when
I remember I tried out for the high school basketball
team at o Main High School, I made the first cut.
(07:10):
Coach Gary Goss was gonna make two cuts. I didn't
make the second cut. But what was so cool about
coach GOSSI is he knew how much I loved basketball
that he said I could be the statman for the team.
So I'm there with the clipboard keeping stats, and I
can picture this coach because you know, when the basketball
team gets ready to run out of the locker room
on to the court, I was the lead man with
(07:32):
the clipboard. I led the basketball team on to the court.
If I was going to be the next Michael Jordan
on the basketball court, let me be the best stat man.
Let me either be the Michael Jordan or the community.
I wanted to just to be the best, because to me,
Michael Jordan was the best. He gave it all, his
aulid everything that he did. My head is bald. You
(07:55):
see a shiny bald head. True story, coach, true story.
I shaved my today because of Michael Jordan because he
pretty much had a bald head some of his career.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
So I think it's safe to say you're a huge
Michael Jordan fav.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Not the biggest, but pretty big. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So, did something in your childhood or did an occasion
in your life what inspired you to be a police officer.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Well, it's a great question and I love telling the story.
So my uncle Don Wooton was a chief of police
in a small town in Arkansas called Hot Springs Village. Yeah, yeah,
so Hot Springs.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
That's where the horse track is, Yes, Oakland, Oakland, Yes,
so Hot Springs Village. Actually interesting side note, I think
didn't the didn't like the Chicago New York mob used
to hang out in Hot Springs, Arkansas.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I am very impressed. Yes, yes, a not a lot
of people know about that, but I mean it was
like before Vegas. It was a big mob stop. And
I believe that Babe Ruth even visited Hot Springs once.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
And and I think I think there's supposedly uh canals
or or like tunnels built through some of the that
the that the mob built the hot stuff had to
shuttle around. I mean, isn't that right?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, you're correct, you're correct. I don't know a lot
of the history behind that, but that is accurate that
a lot of the mobsters were there, you know, the gangsters.
And and then you know, if you talk about sports,
some of the biggest sports figures stopped through there.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And because of the Hot Springs themselves, yes, exactly, the
water was supposed to be Yeah, make sure something.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
People still go today and they get gallons of waters.
They'll come from all over the US just to get
some of that Hot Springs water and take it back
with them, some of the purest water ever.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
So crazy.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
All right, So your uncle uncle Don police, he was
a chief of police in Hot Springs village. And I
remember one summer visiting my uncle. Family reunion was pretty
much every summer at his house, and he had on
this uniform that was no wrinkles pressed, and he had
on his shiny police boots, and he wore a leather
gun belt and anytime he would walk around or get
(09:58):
out of the seat or get up and move, his
leather gum belt would squeak. And I thought the squeaky
leather gun belt was the coolest thing ever. I don't
know why. Yeah, I know, I.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Think anybody listening can identify with that noise, that that
patent shiny black leather and when it rubs on something,
it does that squeaking on it squeaks. Loved that.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
I just I don't know why. Today, but even today
I can picture my uncle Don, and you know he's
not here anymore. But if he walked, I didn't say
a word because I wanted to hear that leather gum
belt squeak to me. The squeak meant, all right, this
is my uncle. He's a chief of police of this town.
It's a pretty cool experience to see him. That was
one of the reasons I want to be a police officer.
(10:41):
But I never thought that I had what it took
to be a police officer, because back then, all I
really knew was police officers pulled people over, they wrote
people tickets, and they took people to jail. When I
told some of my close friends of my family that
I wanted to apply to be a police officer in
North of the Rock, some of them weren't as support
because they thought that if I became a police officer,
(11:02):
it would take away what I was my entire life,
and that was loving and giving. So in early nineteen
ninety eight, I see that there is an opening to
be a Northrop police officer. Now, back then, Coach, it's newspapers,
the print paper that's where you saw openings of jobs.
Now it's all live. Yeah, they're classified. So I apply
(11:24):
and not thinking i'd get a call. So I apply
and they call me in for an interview. This kind
of resembles the interview table. I'm sitting here. There's three
officers over here, and they asked me a question, why
do you want to be a police officer? And I
paused because the answer that I had tucked away in
my heart was I want to love people. I want
(11:47):
to care for people. I want to part my police
car and get out at given the opportunity and just
talk to people. I want to get on people's front
lawns or front porches and ultimately going to their homes
if enough trust is built. So the clock is ticking.
It's quiet in there, and I'm afraid if I give
that answer, which I think maybe was a cheesy answer,
(12:07):
they're not going to hire me, because they're not looking
for a guy that's trying to get out here and
care about people. So the answer I gave them was
I want to pull people over, I want to write
people tickets. I want to take people to jail. All right,
that's the answer I gave them. A got the job,
well hold on. So so finished that, and I kept
(12:28):
getting all these calls physical fitness tests. Got a call
or a letter in the mail, you passed it. Background check. Now,
background checks for police officers. They talk to everybody. They
talked to the neighbors that you're living next to. Now,
the neighbors you lived previously to, they talked to your job,
and now if they didn't do it back then. But
I want to include this for anyone that's listening, not
(12:50):
just law enforcement, but any line of work. They check
your social media's that's that's a big one.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Talk to kids, kids. I've coached my own kids that
one stupid post can screw up a lifetime of opportunity
if you're not careful. Exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
And so at the time, I'm working at Pinnacle Point
Hospital in Little Rock, Arkansas. I'm a mental health worker.
It was around April to nineteen ninety eight, and I
get a call. It was a police recruiter. Her name
was Sergeant Armstrong, and she says, mister Norman, we got
good news. You've been hired at the North of Rock
Police Department and you need to report June fifteenth. So
June fifteenth, nineteen nine of backflips. I was so excited.
(13:27):
I was actually in the gym playing basketball with the
kids at the hospital and when I hung up that phone,
I probably could have dunked that basketball. I was that excited.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
So what about do I got a question. Was your
uncle alive at the time still, yes, Had you spoken
to him about what it was like to be a cop?
What it was really like. I mean, if you're a
I would think, if you're applying and you're really trying
to be a cop, you've got this cool resource, a
guy that you've idolized since you were a kid. Did
(13:59):
you talk to him about I did?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
He encouraged me, and I struggled with once again, if
I put on that uniform, can I still get out
and do what I was raised to do? And that's
part of that story will come later. But so I
was excited. So I called my friends, my family, Hey,
I got the job. I'm going to be a police
officer in the city that helped raise me. So at
(14:22):
the time, I was a homebody. I was married to
my son and my daughter's mom, and I didn't like
being away from home. So the police academy I just
I was. I don't know, I got homesick a lot.
I just think because we were so close as a family,
I was so used to being home. I remember I
went to Nolan Richardson's basketball camp in favor of Arkansas,
(14:43):
and my dad gave me this calling card that had
so many minutes on it, and I maxed that thing
out within the first day calling back home because I
was just I was. I just loved being home. So
the police academy was in Camden, Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Let me ask something, do you There has to be
a reason for that, Tommy, And.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
You're right, and I don't. And I've been asked before,
why did you get homesick?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Do you still get home sick?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
No? I'm good now. Yeah, I mean with the platform
God has blessed me with, I've traveled all over you
and I don't get homesick. I don't know if I was,
if I was younger. I will say this, and this
may come off kind of funny, but it's not. But
my mom would always nurture us, even as adults today.
If I told my mom, Mom, I'm getting my tee
clean next week, she'd want to be there at the
chair watch me get my teeth clean. So I don't
(15:32):
tell her when I'm getting my tee clean.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Nine kids, and she's still she's a special person.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
She is and she's gonna Mom, if you're listening, I
love you. I think she's the reason I got homesick.
I've never really been asked that question and have to
answer it, but I really feel like.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
You have to answer it. That's a pretty record. I
have to answer all questions.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
And I will. I feel like that the love that
my mom showed us, and she loved us so much,
I didn't want to be too far away from her.
You felt a real sense of longing at home, and
I still do. I'm still a mama's boy, fifty years old.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Coach Well, and the thing is, I think about, you know,
nine kids in one bathroom. You're either gonna be really
kind and supportive and close, or you're gonna hate each
other's guts, because that's a lot of selflessness, fighting over
just your little corner of space in the world. And
(16:29):
a home like that. What was what was the dynamic
at home going up?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Well, there were a few knockdowns. There were there was
a few knockdown dragouts. My mo mom had this brown
leather belt, oh boy, and I'm glad that leather belt
just went missing. I won't I won't say what happened
to the leather belt. But if you ever re late
getting home, if you ever smarted off, if you didn't
say yes, ma'am ory, yes, sir, And you never said, huh,
(16:57):
you don't say hung around my mom, yep, And she
would whoop that.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
We uh.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Not even but it would the belt would come across
your face, I mean whatever she could get right. Thank
god we didn't call Child Protective Services back because but
my mom, that's how we ended up the way we
are today.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Let me tell you something. I've got four kids. They
are now twenty seven, twenty six, twenty five, and twenty four,
meaning they were one, two, three, and four. Now there
wasn't nine of them, but there are four and four years.
And I was working growing my business, coaching football, and
so I was seventy eighty hours a week working. Now,
when I was home, I was home, and I wasn't
(17:37):
I'm not saying I was a dad that wasn't there,
but Lisa was alone with kids a lot, and with
four kids that close to each other. You know your
mama had a belt, Well, my wife had a wooden spoon,
and my wife kept a wooden spoon in her person
all times. She had three wooden spoons. One was on
the night stand, one was at her person all times.
(17:59):
She kept one under advisor of her car. And you
might not like this as a safety patrol officer running
around seeing people drive like this, But my wife could
drive with her left hand doing sixty down the interstate
and smack kids in the rear back seat of a
suburban with a wooden spoon and not vesa beat. I
have seen. I have seen my family drive up in
(18:21):
my driveway and all four kids are kind of plastered
up against the sidewalls of the back of the thing
to avoid the reach of the wooden spoon. So I
guess I could identify with your mom. When she'd had enough.
She probably looked like an octopus with that butt leather
belt well y all scattering like hell too.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
And then I learned to put the book in the
back of my pants. But now you just told the
story about Lisa. I think I'd prefer the leather belt
over that wooden spoon.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
That wouldn't spoon. I mean, I could hear that thing
slapping two rooms away. So yeah, so it's followed by
some squalling by one or four kids. Yeah, But at.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
The end of the day, she loved us, and when
we woke up the next morning, she loved us. And
I feel like thinking about it right now, sitting here
across from you, that that's probably one of the reasons
that I didn't like being away from home, because I
just counted so much on my mom and my family
and acceptance. Well, yes, we'll be right back. So I'm
(19:30):
at the police academy. It's a twelve week academy. Halfway through,
I give into the homesickness. I pack up, and I'm
driving back home. I just told the instructors at the
police academy when my kids were sick. I lied, and
halfway back home, I call my mom, said, Mom, I
want to get a job that requires me not to travel.
I can go back to work at Pinnacle Point, I
(19:51):
can be a mental health worker, go to nurse. I
thought about being a nurse. I go to nursing school.
I'll make it work. She said, pull over right now.
She said. You want to always make your family proud.
You've always want to be a police officer. You want
to make your uncle Don proud. She said, You're turned around.
You're going back to the police academy.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
And I did.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I went back and crawled back in bed.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
It's interesting that you caught your mom and not your wife.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yes, yes, exactly. My wife may have said, Okay, come
on back home, right, But there's only one mom out there,
and that woman knew I was going to regret that
decision and I went back. And you know the story
now behind that is really really powerful.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I mean, that's a real turning point in your life,
because if your mom had said, no, baby, I love you,
come on home, your life's trajectory would be one hundred
and eight degrees effort than it is today.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
And I thought, Coach that if I would have gave
into that homesickness and kept on traveling and not called
my mom until the next day and there's no going back. Then,
you know, if I say, Okay, I want to come back,
they're not going to let me back at the police academy, No,
you bolted, right, and would I thought, Well, then the
next days and weeks, when I didn't follow my dream
and I see these police officers and these police cars, Yeah,
(21:09):
I want to be in that police car. I want
to at least see what kind of difference can I
make in North of Rock, Arkansas with the badge in
a police car and more importantly, with a heart.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
You know, one of the purposes of the show is
to obviously one of them is to tell compelling stories
and hopefully, over time literally build an army of normal folks,
just normal people doing extraordinary things of their community that
(21:47):
maybe has an opportunity to change the trajectory of our
culture today. Now that's a moon mission. I mean, this
is a podcast where we talked to interesting people and
to interesting stories, and I have no idea of it's
going to have the legs or power to actually create
a movement, but it would be great if it did,
(22:07):
and that movement would be shepherded by people like you
and others whose stories we tell. But it's so important
that people listening to us understand when we're talking about
an army and normal folk, we're not talking about people
born into wealthy families who have all kinds of advantages
(22:28):
and have the nice suits and live in the big
houses and appear on Fox and CNN and all of that.
You know, because those people have been in charge for decades,
and I think we can look at largely their success
(22:48):
in our society and say that their efforts have been
woefully inadequate. Our government a lot of places that I
just I get so frustrated with all the power and
ability that ends up doing a lot of self serving
for them work and leaves a lot of folks wanting.
(23:15):
So for an army and normal folks to work, we
have to establish it's an army of normal folks. And
to hear your story to grow up with one bathroom
and a mom who loves you and a blue collar
dad who you know by all practical purposes, Tommy, you
were poor. You just didn't know it because that's all
(23:37):
you knew. And to hear that you wanted to be
a cop because of your uncle in Hot Springs, and
then you finally get the opportunity, and halfway through it
you pack up your car and you leave because you're homesick.
I mean, those are just real struggles. But that's what
normal people go through, isn't it. Yes, it's just a
normal dude. Yes, just a normal dude with your own
(24:00):
insecurities and your own homesickness and everything else. You side
a dream, but you're just a normal dude. And the
point is we all struggle with weird stuff. And your mom,
who knew you best, said pull your drawers up and
get your back to camp, exactly what she said, and
(24:23):
change the trajectory of your life because you listen to
your mom to overcome your own insecurities. I mean, I
think that's a beautiful thing, and I think it says
it should say to everybody listening to this right now
has insecurities. Because we're human beings. We have them. Everybody
has something they have to overcome. And sometimes it's just
(24:45):
as much as putting your head down to the side
and I'm gonna get this head on and so that's
what you did.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
And code something else to add on to my homesickness
was I kind of always question as a police officer,
can I even make a difference, because you know, so
if I'm leaving because I'm homesick, I'd already been questioning,
you know, can police officers do more than righte tickets
and take people to jail? And I didn't know yet
because I haven't worked one minute on the street. So
(25:13):
I gave into those insecurities until my mom.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, you let the doubt, you let the doubt cloudshit.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
So homesickness and the icing on the cake that not
I started to drive back home was okay. I've kind
of questioned, anyway, is this occupation? Is it going to
change you? I don't want it to change who I am.
My mom taught me our entire life, you better not
forget where you came from. So I had two confirmations
in my mind. I'm homesick and maybe this is not
what I want to do anyway.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Because I may not be able to be me with
this badge on exactly, which is what we're going to
get to in a little Yes, So I guess you
turn around because your mom had told you to, and
she still had a belt at that time, even though
you've grown.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Eggs, she would have still used it police officer or not?
Would she would still let me?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
And you go back and you graduate, Yes, And what
year do you become a full fledged policeman?
Speaker 1 (26:08):
So nineteen ninety eight, graduated from the academy, probably towards
the end of the year. And when you graduate from
the academy, you come back and you train for six
months with a field training officer.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Meaning you're riding.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
You're riding with someone and eventually they'll let you drive
and they kind of monitor you and observe you. And
after six months, here's a key, here's a police car.
You're on midnight shift. Your day's offer Tuesday Wednesday. Now
I'm excited I finally get to get out in the
community and the police.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I have a question because I really don't know, and
I imagine most ton't. I've actually always wondered this. So
when they say, here's your key, here's your police car,
here's your shift, go, do you have a like a
set coordinates of a part of a city that you
quote patrol or do you can you go anywhere?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Now you're assigned what we call a certain beat.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
A beat, beat beat, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah beat.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
So the beat that I was assigned to was the
beat that I wanted. I grew up in North Rock
and it was what we call downtown North Rock in
some areas that are impovers, families that are poor, families
that have really never been given a chance.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I gotta believe that's one of the more danger series. Though.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Yes it's definitely not a walk in the park. But
that's what you want, what I wanted, That's what I wanted.
But I'm a midnight shift coach. Everybody's asleep. I want
people that are awake, people that I can interact with.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
So you wanted that, you wanted that beat, but you
didn't want that shift.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
With seniority you're not going to get the hours you want.
So this is where I hope people listening to this
pay real close attention because it gets even more powerful.
So after a couple of years, I'm on second shift,
still not with the best days.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I'm at second.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Chef two pm to ten pm.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Okay, love it.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
There's cars, there's people outside, there's kids. So what I
do initially is I part my police car one time
allowed and I would walk different streets and talk to people.
Some people would wait back, some people would engage with me.
Some people would turn their backs and go inside their houses.
There's this new police officer assigned to our neighborhood. What
is he doing walking down the street. What is he
(28:26):
doing wanting to say hi to us?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I think the initial reaction of anybody is when you
see a cop walking down the street, something bad's happened or.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
About to happen, exactly exactly. And so I was a
little discouraged. But I'm telling myself, Okay, you finished the academy,
this is what you wanted to do. You get back
out the next day, in the next week, and the
next month and the next year.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
And I did.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I remember one evening right before dark, I part my
police car on a church parking lot and I start walking.
This is probably within the first five years of my career.
And after a few minutes, I looked to the right,
there's a line of kids on the right. I looked
to the left. There's a line of kids on the left.
And we're walking like an army. And I'm smiling, thinking
(29:14):
this is working. In two thousand and five, I'm a
seven year officer. My shift ended at two pm. By
that time, I was on day shift. A gentleman in
Little Rock, Arkansas called the police department and said he
was urgent that he saw me. It couldn't wait, so
I go over to the Little Rock. This gentleman is homeless.
(29:34):
He's sitting in front of a payphone at the gas station.
I sit down next to him. I'm still in uniform.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Old older. This homeless guy called the police and wanted
to see you.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yes, but in Little Rock. I work at North Little Rock.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Okay, so can you do that? Can you cross?
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Well, I'm off work, you know. I did tell my
supervisor he I want to go over here and see
what this guy wants. But yeah, I still in uniform.
I drive over and I get out and sit down
next to him, and after five minutes of convers he
tells me he's a murder suspect inside a homeless camp.
A week before this, he beat a man to death
(30:08):
with a piece of two by four and I remember
seeing the story on the news and they were looking
for this guy. So I get on my radio, I
call my dispatch. They call Little Rock police. They're showing
up within a matter of minutes. And one of the
first things an officers said when I got out of
his police cars, how did you find this guy? We've
been looking for him and he found you. My response
(30:31):
was I didn't find him, he found me. So they
lift him up, put him in handcuffs, a very peaceful arrest.
But I could not let them drive away with this
guy until I asked him this question. Sir, you never
met me before. Why do you call me to turn
yourself in? He said he was afraid that it was
(30:53):
so exhausting to hide from the police. He asked another
homeless guy in Little Rock, what can I do that
homeless guy I don't even know who he is today,
said call Tommy Norman a north of the Rock, and
you could surrender with dignitine respect. The moral of that
story is my reputation solved the murder.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
My reputation solved the murder. And it goes back to
my mom raising me to treat people. I don't care
if they were different color than I was. They didn't
have as much as we had. That was confirmation. Thank
god I turned around and went back to the police academy,
and thank god I followed my uncle Don's advice. My
seven years of just being nice to people, not slapping
(31:32):
handcuffs on people or taking people to jail, but seven
years of being nice to people took a murder off
the streets.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Well, let's first of all, it's amazing, probably the first
murder case ever solved because a cop was sweet. I mean,
that's phenomenal. But let's talk about the seven years that
led up to that and the ensuing years of your career. Now,
(31:58):
which is the extraordinary thing that you have done. Is
our culture today says that if your let's just be candid,
if you're black or brown or a minority, that you
(32:20):
know the first thing you do is fear a cop.
You fear that badge, you fear that uniform, You fear
the police because nothing good happens with the cops, and
so that that has become a cultural thing. I have
a really really good friend who I coached his sons
(32:42):
and my sons came up playing football together, and we
actually coached their like sixth and seventh grade football team
and in through seventh grade, actually third through seventh grade.
And the guy played in the NFL, and he is
now a executive with a pharmaceutical company. He lives in
(33:05):
a really nice suburb of Memphis and a forty five
hundred square foot house, and his kids go to very
expensive private schools. I mean, by all practical purposes. He's
upper end, wealthy cat who's done really really well. And
he's black and his sons are black, but he's on
the very high end of the socioeconomic scaling. He and
(33:28):
I are are tight. We're buddies. And I asked him
when his oldest son was first driving, you know, how
it was going, and he said, well, you know, he's
going well. His insurance good, he had ninety REX. He's
doing good. And he said, but I did have to have,
you know, the talk with him. And I said that,
(33:51):
what do you mean the talk? And he said, man,
I forget you're white. And I'm like, what are you
talking about? I'm white and he said, well to talk
about how to act if an officer pulls him over.
And I'm like, dude, he's you live out in the suburbs,
(34:12):
You're driving around a nice car. This kid's got you know,
he's squared away. He's not you know, what's he got
to be worried about. And he looked at me like
I was a fool and he said, man, to have
worked so much in the inner city and to be
so in tune with what's going on, he said, it
shocks me how naive you can be sometimes. That's what
(34:32):
he said to me, and I'm like, what are you
talking about? He said, my son's black. And he said
black folks, when they get pulled over by the cops,
have a lot greater potential to have bad things happen
than new white people. And I said, do you really
believe that? And he said, I don't believe it. I've
(34:53):
lived it. And I'm going to tell you. When I
heard that, it really bothered me because I didn't believe it.
And that kid I've known since he was in third grade. Hell,
he's better mader than my own sons. I'd have traded
my two kids for that one kid. He was that
good a kid, you know what I mean, And I
mean he was. He was a great kid. And I
(35:15):
couldn't ever imagine him being pulled over and being treated
in a bad way just because he was black. And
then it happened. He got pulled over, and it was
near the school, and my sons and some of their
friends saw them get pulled over, and they pulled my
(35:38):
kid's friends pulled over in a parking lot not far
from where it was, and they got their phones out,
and all he was doing was he took a turn
without a blinker, and they pulled him over. They made
him get out, They searched him, They spread him on
the car and searched them. They looked all through the car,
(35:58):
they went through the truck, asked him not if he
had anything on him, but said specifically, where you hide
in your weed, and treated him with and a an
assumption that was in nowhere near in line with with
(36:20):
who he was as a kid. And my kids had
been pulled over plenty of times in our suburb and
never asked to do anything but show them their driver's license,
and my kids came home and said, man, it is different,
and that's heartbreaking to me. And but with that story
(36:46):
in my consciousness, which I will never forget, I think
about a white dude who's a cop, park in his
car in a predominantly African American part of North Little
Rock and walking down the sidewalk. I get what the
(37:07):
the man did seven years later, once you've established a relationship.
But I have to believe that most people are looking
at you like you were out of your damn mind
and none of them wanted anything to do with you
because they were afraid of you because of the reality
of their experience with white police. Now, is what I'm
(37:27):
saying true? Or is what I'm saying sensationalized?
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Now what you're saying is absolutely real life. It happens.
So I kind of skipped out on day one to two.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
I was going to go day one to It's cool.
It would would jump around how did I get there?
But I want to know what it was really like
for you those first six months. Forget everything that we're
going to get to, everything that's happened, because that's inspiring
and beautiful and hopeful. But I'm just from from my
(38:00):
experience with my children and my children's friends, and what
I now know to be true that as a person
who works in the inner city, I still didn't understand it,
and I finally do. I cannot imagine when those people
must thought you were out of your damn mind walking
up down the sidewalk as a white guy in a uniform,
(38:22):
and I can't imagine any of them warmed to you.
There had to have been a first. There had to
have been, you know, and I want to hear about that.
I want to understand how you broke through that cultural
expectation that you were the enemy.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
I came back. When I say I came back, coach,
is if I walk through this neighborhood to day, I
came back the next day. I think coming back and
keeping your promise and being that familiar face is one
of the big ways to kind of slowly but surely
chip away at these barriers that are between communities of
color and police officers, most specifically white police officers. And
(39:03):
when I say I come back, is you know, you
meet a family, and you check on this family every day, and.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Then what do you mean you literally go up, knock
on the door and say.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Oh, you exchange numbers. Even on your day off. You
call them, Hey, it's officer Norman. How's it going. You
ask them you.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Should call people on your day off.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Oh, absolutely absolutely. We're family. We're I'll get to how
we became family. But your family. So you narrow it
down to one family. Now, I do things in the
masses and big, big numbers, but you narrow it down
the one. If you can change one family's perception of
police officers, I think you've done a pretty good job.
So you want to know where does a dad work,
(39:42):
where does a mom work, How are the kids doing
in school? You know, did someone just get married, does
someone just have a baby. Right, You don't just want
to know their license plate numbers and their addresses on
front of their house. You want to know what's behind
I want people to know what's behind my badge. I
want to know what's behind that address on that house.
What was really cool to me is after about the
first year of being a police officer.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
So it did take a year.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Oh it took a while because guess what, that badge
is not going to earn you trust and respect. It's not.
It's not for some people it will, but for people
in these communities that don't really trust police officers. Your
uniform is not going to cut it, your police car
is not going to cut it, but your heart will.
And you have to come back. So after the first year,
(40:25):
this one family, I get invited to a six year
old's birthday party. This little girl. We were buddies, we
became friends. But guess what I said yes to the invitation.
You think I wore my uniform. No, I don't want
people just to see me in my uniform. I wore
a pair of Levi's and a button down shirt and
(40:46):
I had the best time. You talked party like at
their house or sea.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
It was at their house.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
And if a police in your beat, in my beat.
But let me say this, there were people looking at
me because, first of all, Officer Norman showed up at
a birthday party and blue jeans and a button down shirt.
And just like you talked about, Coach, I've been to
multiple birthday parties, now, visits to children's hospital. I've been
(41:12):
the wedding, spoke at a few funerals. They forget when
you actually wear your uniform to one of these places,
you're still a police officer. Officer Norman and you talked about.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
So instead of seeing the badge first, now they see Tommas.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
And that was my goal. That has been my goal
since since day one. And I don't want to say
no that all these invitations you get, I think as
a police officer, you need to honor most of those
because if you go above and beyond and you're showing
up at birthday parties and people are sick and they
want you there, that is a humbling and a huge privilege.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Have you ever pulled up in those early years, You
ever pulled up on kids and they.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Just run off? Yes, run run from you?
Speaker 2 (41:55):
What was your reaction to them?
Speaker 1 (41:57):
First of all, chase them?
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Really?
Speaker 1 (41:59):
I mean if they're running from you for a reason.
I didn't know exactly what you were talking about. But no,
as far as as far as kids being scared, okay, yea.
So I have another story. I'm getting excited. I need
to slow down. So there's a story of a young
man and his siblings that are at a playground and
they see me coming and they run inside their apartment
(42:22):
public housing, and I see the door that this young
man goes in. When you say young men age eight
or nine, okay, and they bolt to their apartment and
they got in that back door fast. Now you know
why they've been taught when they see the cops to
haul properly. So I see the door, I get out
(42:43):
of my police car and I knock on the door.
It's a metal door, so it's a loud knock, and
the mom comes to the door. Is everything okay?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Off?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
So Norman, not really? Because I'm driving down the street
and your kids run into their apartment and I just
want to know why. And she called the kids.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
You just said why, Yeah, I just want to know why,
not in an accusing one. No, you really wondered, And I.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Told her that they haven't done anything wrong, and she
called them. There were four kids. She called them up
to the door and offer them, wants to know why
you ran from him? And they're scared of police officers.
That bothered me. That bothered me because I want them
to run. My goal has been my entire career is
I want kids to run to my police car, not
(43:30):
run from my police car. Now what could I have done?
I could have kept driving. Oh those kids ran for me.
I don't know why, but I stopped. It helped that
I saw what apartment they went in and they told
me they kept it as real as they could. As kids,
we're scared of police officers. So I made it a
point to.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
What did you say to him? Did you say? Did you?
I mean, I can imagine kneeling down, getting on one
knee on their level and looking at the eye and say, hey,
I'm officer Norman and don't be afraid of me. I'm
here for you.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
I mean, what did you It's one thing to say that,
but it's another thing to show that and prove that.
So I remember the address, and I kept coming back
and visiting the kids. Whenever they saw something about kids
is they remember the numbers to a police car. So
the I have a every police car has a number
on their police unit. Kids know me so well down
(44:22):
to the number of my police car, and they remember that.
Now that's that's pretty cool if you think about it.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
That is.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
And so you know these kids now it's been a
few years and I still see them. But my goal
was it's one thing to say you care about someone
and not to be scared, but you've got to show it.
You've got to show it.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
And so.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
That that was just a story of I don't kids,
you just keep going by, keep going by. Some of
the things I do. And you know, sometimes people will
kind of give me a hard time. But in the
trunk of my police car, it's toys, it's peanut butter crackers,
it's pop tarts, it's it's it's squeezed, it's it's not
you know, it's not swat gear, it's not you know,
battering rams. You know, it's still.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
It just dawned on me. You are you almost like
I mean, I know you wear a gun on patrol.
But the old Dady gripped the show, the sheriff that
wouldn't ever wear a gun on his holster. I mean,
you're carrying around stuff most cops don't care.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Round I mean it. And you know, my skin is
thicker today after twenty five years in law enforcement, but
early in my career, you know, people are he's giving
out pop tarts and peanut butter crackers. Absolutely, I am
for a few reasons. Sometimes that's all the food the
kids will get that day. And secondly, if this kid's
five years old, when he's twenty five years old, he's
(45:42):
going to remember that exchange from my hand to his
peanut butter crackers. It filled his belly and it made
him happy.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Well, that concludes part one of our conversation with Officer Norman,
and I really hope you'll listen to part two that's
now available. Trust me, this interview just keeps getting better.
But if you don't, make sure you join the Army
of Normal Folks at normalfolks dot us and sign up
to become a member of our movement. It only takes
(46:15):
committing to doing one new thing this year to help others.
And there will be a ton of awesome ideas on
this podcast when the folks were featuring, and some of
them will resonate with you deeply and others may not
at all, and that's okay. We're all called to do
different things with our different talents. By signing up, you'll
also receive a weekly email with a short episode summary
(46:36):
in case you happen to miss an episode or prefer
reading about our incredible guests. Together, with each of us
doing what we can, we can change this country. And
it starts with you. Lent it game
Host
Bill Courtney
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