October 31, 2022 • 64 mins
It’s May 19, 2009 you just watched the first episode of a new TV show called Glee. You can’t sit still, you feel alive, like you want to sing everything instead of speaking.
But how did we get here? What’s the real story behind the show? Well for starters…The original script was much darker, an iconic character…not included and Justin Timberlake, was in the mix?!
Creator Ryan Murphy joins Kevin and Jenna and takes us through the show's brightest of lights and the darkest of days, including the loss of Glee family members.
It’s time to start believin’ as we go behind the curtain, in part 1 of a very special 2-part opening number of “And That’s What You REALLY Missed!”
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And that's what you really missed with Jenna and Kevin
and I Heart radio podcast. We're back here. We are welcome. Oh,
welcome to and that's what you really missed. You be
rated us. You reached us on every social media platform.
(00:23):
You would not leave us alone. No, and we tried
to ignore it. It worked. Whatever you did worked. Thanks
for Thanks for coming back, Thanks for making us come back.
We're here with you, and we are we are excited
to revisit this with new eyes. Yeah. I think two
(00:46):
Eyes are very different from even two years ago. Yes,
and so it's nice to pick this back up. And
I think Jen and I have a plan for this
for this version. We're going in depth. We're going to
be very open. We're gonna we're not gonna sugarcoat. We're
gonna talk about everything. Um and I think ultimately, Jenna,
(01:07):
you and I talked about is that there was so
much joy in the process of making Glee. Yes, obviously
there are bad things and we will talk about them,
but there was a lot of good and we want
to explore that. We want to get into the details
of the nitty gritty of different departments and who the
show have impacted and affected and so going into this
(01:28):
first episode and to relaunching this whole thing, we were
talking about who could we have, Well, we figured we'd
start at the top, right who who better than the man,
the myth, the legend himself, Ryan Murphy. Ryan Murphy, Honestly,
I feel like there was a reckoning in the last
(01:49):
two years in the best way possible. Um, what you've
seen in the media, what you've seen is just a
snippet of all of them, of the madness that went
on around Glee. But there's so much good and there
was so much joy and this thing was, honestly, at
least the first couple of years, was made with so
(02:09):
much love and UM, I'm just really excited to share
that with you guys. And I feel like we've we've
had this, you know, open conversation with Ryan Murphy over
the last two years as well, and with all of that,
I think everybody's going to this with a new perspective
of some sort and and that's why we're doing this
(02:31):
and who better to kick it off. We just talk
to Ryan for almost three hours. He was so great, open,
an honest conversation, and we learned a lot of things
we never knew about behind the scenes. We asked a
lot of things, we had questions about that we we
(02:52):
have been dying to ask um that we may never
get those answers again. So and he was not shying
away from and and everything. Buckle up. We hope you
enjoy this. We sure did. We learned a lot and
here's our kickoff episode. Enjoy our conversation with Ryan Murphy.
Let's start at the very beginning, Ryan Murphy. For the people, everybody,
(03:16):
this is why old people right, this is Ryan Show today.
Seeing as we have you, we're not going to let
you go until we go through everything. And you signed
off on that I did. I sort of told you both, like,
you know, I've never really talked about Glee or the
(03:37):
making of Glee, and you know, for all of us,
I think it was the beginning of a lot of things,
the end of a lot of things. And I thought,
you know what, I'm just going to talk about all
of it and say an answer anything that's asked me,
and then this is going to be like a really
intense therapy session. So I have my clean xbox nearby,
(03:58):
and already your ugs on, you're on a couch, my
egs on. I'm on a couch. I decided to treat
this like a psychological experiment, and we've all taken and
we're ready. We're ready to dive deep. I'm ready to
deep dive and answer any arcane. There's no question too
small or too big. I think we all need this
for some reason. Glee happened over fifteen years ago, and
(04:21):
it keeps coming back and people won't let it die.
So let's just do it this. We're bringing it. Let's
let's go at the very beginning, very beginning. Yeah, I
think so two thousand seven or two thousand eight, Niptuck
was in the throes of success, still in the air. Um,
you remember you did a pilot called Pretty Handsome with
(04:44):
John Grof and you carry and Moss. Yeah, you showed us,
I showed you, guys, and that pilot didn't go didn't
go forward. How did you go from What was this
process like? Because the story we you heard was you
met someone at a gym and got handed a script
and eventually that turned into Glee. But what was your
(05:06):
experience of how did Glee happen coming off of Pretty
Handsome and Niptuck still being on the air. Mm hmm,
it was it was always a great It's a great
lesson that I always tell people, particularly young people, like
every crushing no leads to the ultimate, bigger yes. And
(05:27):
that's exactly what happened in the case of Glee. So
I had this big, shiny hit called Niptuck. And when
you have a hit like that, you know pretty much
the next thing that you do, particularly if you're doing
it for the same network, they will say, Okay, great,
let's do that. So I put my heart into this
show called Pretty Handsome with Joseph Findes. It was actually
(05:51):
the first time I think Jonathan Groff had ever been
before a camera, as I remember, and I remember saying like,
you can't look into the lens, like that's the rule
number one. And he was so charming and was you know,
the typical Johnny fashioned like Olivier and Take one. And
so I did it. It was it was very much
(06:11):
like Transparent. It was it was like ten years before Transparent,
and we all loved it and thought it was great.
It was about um, a male guyd of collegist who
realize that he's a woman and Dot Marie Jones was
in it, and you know, it was just an amazing
cast and they called me up and they said, we
(06:33):
love this, we think it's one of the best things
that we've ever seen. We cannot sell advertising for it.
The advertiser advertisers have already told us no, and we
can't put it on the air. And I was really
really upset, and I think I took to my bed
for two weeks. And right at the same time, I
had started an overall deal at Fox with Dana Walden,
(06:53):
who has gone on to be my big mentor and champion,
and she made me have a dinner where her and
she said, you can't be depressed about this. You just
have to keep going on and you have to challenge yourself.
And she said, what have you always wanted to do
that you've never done? And I said, well, I've always
(07:14):
wanted to do a musical. And she paused and she said, well,
that's not gonna work because there's never been a musical
that worked on television like there was famously this Stephen
Boco show called cop Rock, and then there was a
Melanie Griffith show around that time. I think it was
set in Las Vegas that was people singing, but it
didn't work. And I said, well, what if we do
(07:38):
a musical that goes on sometime after American Idol or
before American Idol, because that which was the biggest, biggest
show in the world. So while we were having these
conversations and I was trying to figure it out, like serendipity,
I went to the gym and I was in a
towel and a guy came up, Mike Novec came up
(07:58):
and handed me the script and he said said, I
have a feeling you were in show choir. Am I right?
And I was like, yeah, I guess I've got a
huge gay face in a towel in a gym, and
I said I was. And he said, my friend wrote
the script and you should read it, and he gave
it to me, and I didn't read it for a
couple of weeks while Dana and I were continually trying
(08:21):
to talk about, well, what is the musical to crack like,
what is it? At one point it was going to
be a draculum musical that would have gone over real great.
And so then I finally read Ian script on a plane,
and in Ian's original script, it was a very dark
comedy that had kind of the idea of it, and
Ian and I were both in quired and Mr Shoe
(08:45):
I believe as a crystal meth addict in Ian's script,
so I like doing was he like touching the children?
It was it was like a very dark dark It
was sort of like election, remember that Reese Wather's election,
but like the NC seventeen version of show Choir with
(09:06):
like a weird protagonist who is unraveling. And as soon
as I read it, I was like, Okay, well this
is it, and I said what if we? Because what
I loved was the idea of um kids in high school.
And one of the things that I have since learned
in um my career is it it seems like shows
(09:29):
that work or TV experiences that work very often feature
people going through quote unquote first times, first kiss, first loss,
first singing, singing experience, on and on and on. So
I kind of instinctively wanted to do something about first
and I wanted to do something after my transsexual show
(09:49):
didn't go that was the opposite of that. Like I
wanted something very very poppy and primary colors and blue
sky and not dark. I had done Niptuck and I
had done pretty handsome, and I was like, I just
need to do something optimistic, and so I convinced Ian
to work on a draft that sort of leaned into
(10:12):
all of that stuff, and we presented it to Dana
and she actually liked it and she said, I think
that this could actually work. So she was the first
champion of it, just as the idea UM. And then
we started writing that and it sort of took six
months to write it, and we wrote it, and then
(10:36):
the interesting thing was we turned it in and Kevin Riley,
who was had hired me at f f X and
was now running Fox with Peter Lagory, said I love
this pilot. It's weird, it'll probably never go It has
one huge problem, and knowing you, I'm shocked and disappointed
in you. And I said, oh my god, what And
(10:57):
he goes, there's no bad person in here, like all
these people are nice and optimistic, and he goes, there's
no one to hate, and I said, you're right, And
then Ian and I talked and within fifteen minutes, I said,
I know what it is. It's a horrible cheerleading coach
like Jane Jane Lynch type person. And I had worked
(11:17):
with Jane before UM, but we kept calling her Jane
Lynch like so that's then we put Cecil Vester into
the pilot script and if you notice going back that
character is not in it a lot um and and
and that's why because we just had to put it
in there to get it green lead. And then Kevin
was like, eureka, you've done it. So then it got
(11:41):
we got it picked up and we were off to
the races. But it was a very interesting, bizarre way
to make something. What's I remember you when you would
sort of tell us like the short version of that
story back in the day when you like I walked
into Fox and they were like, okay, sure, go for it.
Was like, who in the right mind would be like, yeah, um,
(12:04):
you this TV person who has created all these dark
shows and this pilot that we love that we can't
actually green light. We want you to go for this
thing that's probably the hardest thing to get success with.
And they were like, yeah, go for it. On multiple levels, well,
like do you feel like you were out of your
element or in your element? Because we always kept like
(12:25):
when we were doing press after the pilot, everybody was like,
this is so not Ryan Murphy. This is this is
the opposite of what Ryan Murphy does. Like, do you
feel like you are in or out of your element
creating this show. I really felt like I was in
my element because you know, I had kind of lived
that show in a weird way, because there were parts
(12:50):
of me in all of the regular parts, you know,
the small group of regulars. Then it became like you know,
Night of a Thousand Stars eventually, but they were like
five key part and I think there was a lot
of me in all of those parts, because you know,
Ian and I had really were working on the just
the ideas of it, and I felt very personal to
(13:10):
all of them, you know. Um, And you know, I
started this business writing Popular, which was a very also
a high school show that was a comedy. But then
I became the prince of Darkness. And I think that
what the town does is that you are your last hit, right,
so then you're suddenly that thing. And I never thought
(13:31):
it was true. And it was a very interesting time
in the life of show business in Hollywood because if
you look back at it now, you know, really the
two biggest champions of Glee, we're Dana Walden and Jen Sulky.
Jen has gone on to run Amazon, and these two
powerhouses were the ones I wouldn't say they were battling
(13:53):
the guys, because the guys, you know, Kevin Riley and
and Peter Rice and Peter Legory were always interested in it.
But it was a very interesting, long battle. But for
some there was something about it that as soon as
we made it, I just knew that it was special,
and I kept just saying to everybody, just get it
(14:15):
on the air, and if it gets on the air,
I know it's gonna work. So you know, when you
that was back when there was such a thing as
pilot season. So we made the pilot and we turned
it in and you had to do things called test screeners.
So we took Glee, Dane and I in Jen and
we went to some place in Studio City with a
(14:38):
test audience and we showed it to them, and I
think it literally got the worst scores in the history
of the bombed. It was just like complete bomb And
the thing that at the end of it um the
people didn't realize it was a musical, so they kept
there was like checked which category or you best, how
(15:01):
you would market this show? And they not a single
person and there were thirty six people in that room
thought that it was a musical. Um, so they one
person a lot of people thought it was a satire
and they would they wrote that, which it kind of was. Yeah.
So then there was the powerful person in the world
(15:28):
who really didn't understand it, and there was you know,
back then there all these different levels of programmers. There
was also a lot of I'll just say it, there
was a lot of homophobic fear about this show. Um.
There was one very powerful person within the corporation who
would repeatedly at screenings of it when they were showing
it before it was picked up, who kept calling it
the fag show, which made everybody in the executives who
(15:52):
had championed it furious. And that was back in the
day where you could say this in a room full
of people and nobody would bat an eye, especially you
were super super powerful, super powerful in your doctors, you know,
standing there and that you know, like this person also
came up to me a different no matter. It was
(16:14):
just hilarious. Like it was one of those things where
there were like really five people who believed in it.
And then there was Joe Early, who did the marketing
of it, instantly got what it was. He was the
one who working with me came up with the color
scape of the yellows and the reds and all of
you guys doing the l's on your head. It was
(16:38):
very simple, and we worked, Joe and I worked a
lot on that concept. But the thing about it that
was great is is it had all these guardian angels.
It had Dana first and foremost, who after that disastrous
test screating took me out for a drink and she said,
you know what, I don't care. I don't care what
they think they're wrong. What version was the test? Was
(17:00):
it the one that actually aired? No, the version of
the test had the infamous long Um disco dancing segment
with Mr She was a child Um. And I will say, like,
after that disastrous screening, the good thing about that screening
(17:20):
was it sort of made everybody put on there, Okay, well,
how do we convince people that this is a mainstream concept? Um?
And it was. The idea was if you take that
out and get right to you know, because that was
polarizing because the costumes were like based on Copacabana. It
was very very odd and so that that was the
(17:42):
first thing to go, and not much after that, and
once that we lifted that out I think it's since
been seen in like DVD cuts and things like that.
Um we um, yeah, we we took that out and
then um people were more comed rble with it. And
then we didn't make any changes at all. And then
the interesting thing was, I don't know if it was
(18:05):
based on my relationships, I think so. Um. And also
just because the like Dana and gen and and everybody
had been the ringer through it, we got like the
first thirteen ordered and that was a magical thing because
you know, we got to make those first the first
thirteen episodes, no one had seen it, no one had
(18:27):
watched it, and we were on the paramount lots. Yeah,
we were making it in a real bubble and it
was the only thing I was working on the Pray
Love with Julia Roberts at the time. But you know,
it was very, very singular. I don't even remember how
many of those did I direct three of the thirteen?
I think, um, maybe three or four. But I was
(18:53):
I just remember making it and not really caring if
it was going to be a hit or a bomb,
because I knew that the first third Team would get
on the air, and I thought, well, maybe this is
gonna be like a Freaks and Geeks thing where you know,
the third teen will air and then it will be canceled,
(19:13):
but people will look back on it. Finally, because I
knew that it would mean something to anybody who had
been in show choir. Yeah, what were your expectations? None? None,
and you know, there was it. My expectation was actually
when we aired the pilot, it aired in May, I think,
right around the American Idolphin. It was right after the
(19:36):
season finale American, and I thought, just I don't know
how this is gonna do. And it did. And I
remember the next morning and there was that you know,
back then it's just not that long ago, but so
long ago, you know, you'd get the call. Well it did, okay,
it didn't do great, you know, but we still love you.
(19:57):
We hope that you don't look at this as discouraging.
It's it's okay and you got your being seen and yeah,
so it was sort of I always thought it was
gonna be like that, Like I thought it was gonna
be niche, because you know, I had gone through niche
before with Popular, you know, which aired for two seasons
and had a very small loyal old audience. Back then,
(20:18):
we would call it CULTI, but you look at the
ratings for those shows that are culty. Those ratings existed today.
Popular was more would be like Game of Thrones, like
more and more people were just watching television, and the
ratings were so high compared to now. So I think
I remember it the pilot aired, I got on a
(20:42):
plane and flew to Bali, right, and I just thought, well,
that's what it's gonna be. It's gonna air in the fall,
and it's gonna be something that we loved making and
we were all proud of, and it's just gonna kind
of be a culty thing and that's that. And I
had no expectation for the back seven episodes, although I
(21:03):
had things in mind, and I knew that if it
did get picked up, I was going to do a
Madonna episode and that was going to be my big
swan song. I'd come here to do what I was
gonna do. So I had no exactly and I had
no plans other than that. And I don't know how
you guys felt. I remember the last day of shooting.
(21:25):
I remember getting the cast together and saying something because
I had a really bad experience with the with the
niptuck ending, you know, and going through something that burned
really bright, and then everybody kind of falling apart, and
I remember giving a speech about staying close and being
in it for the work. I don't know if you
remember that. I believe. I believe I cried that a
(21:46):
couple of times. God help. But you know what I
really remember about that time was, you know, even you're
you're saying that I showed you guys the pretty handsome pilot,
Like there were some time where, you know, almost all
of the cast was known in certain circles, Broadway circles, Jenna,
(22:07):
certainly Kevin from your musical background, but nobody really knew
a lot about the cast. And we spent every day together.
We had weekends together. I mean, I would bring you
guys into this little black room that was the size
of a closet, like thirteen of you, and I would
screen rough cuts just so that you would get excited
(22:29):
and people would be cheering everybody else's musical numbers. And
it was a very it was a very wonderful. You know,
I was single at the time. I had not you know,
but also Glee led me to my marriage, which is
another story. But yeah, it was like it was my life.
(22:51):
It was Julia Robertson, you guys and munt and we
were all we all that the stupidest things I could
possibly imagine. Stop talking now. Kevin and I remember we
talked about this a lot, like we spent It was
very much a bubble. The world hadn't seen the show yet.
We didn't know what it was going to be. Our
(23:12):
expectations were non um. In the middle of it, the
pilot airs and it does well, and all of a sudden,
there's these commercials of Glee was watched by fifteen million
people and the song's number one on iTunes. Were like,
we did the mall to this hot topic mall tour
or you know, like the thing that I'm glad that
you remember the headlines is being good because I remember
(23:34):
those headlines as well. They got fifteen million viewers, but
that's only because people who were watching American Idol forgot
to turn on the channel, So it's not a thing.
I remember thinking that because I was always sort of
the numbers guy, were like the cast. I would always
report back to the cast like what our ratings and
music were doing, and I remember being like, Okay, well,
they're like, really milking this. We don't really know yet,
(23:57):
but we are. In every department, I think it wasn't
just us, It wasn't just you. In every department, the crew, production,
behind the scenes, everyone felt the same thing, where no
one talked about if it was going to be successful
or not. We were just having the time of our lives.
We'd show up, we'd make the crew laugh, we'd have
to do these crazy musical numbers with the incredible Andrew
(24:19):
Mitchell and Steadycam and it was everyone just felt was
all in on making this thing work, that we you
were creating the formula as it was happening, and we
were all just sort of like, I don't know what
this is going to be. I don't know who this
is for, but we love it. It felt like it
was for us, and you know, it felt like you
(24:41):
were also you were very hands on with us from
the very beginning, where you gave us I don't know,
I think three or four speeches like the one you
talked about where and you did explain sort of vaguely
about coming off of this Niptuck experience where you wanted
to make sure that you handled this in a way
(25:01):
that you felt was better or healthier or a more
correct way to deal with the cast. And I think
because we were young and completely unknown and I don't
know us completely green, that you would talk us through,
like gently, sort of hold our hands through if their success,
if we're lucky enough to have any success, this is
(25:24):
sort of what will happen, and if it does happen,
this is how we should handle it together as a group.
And then when we did start to build momentum and
get success, you would sort of check in and be like, Okay,
here's where we are. This is very rare air and
this may never happen again. Yeah, like this is And
that was for you, that was for us, that was
for everyone. And I remember I feel like had you
(25:47):
not been there with the foresight to sort of talk
us through that you had been running shows before, but
you also didn't know at the time you were about
to be running this billion dollar business, so you didn't
know either. I knew nothing. Yeah, you know how to
run a successful show that was had a core fan
base and was getting picked up, and that's what you
(26:08):
were concerned about for us, which was I think very helpful.
But then it sort of exploded into this yeah, yeah,
it was. It was a I would say it was
like the best of times the worst of times for me.
The thing that I was very aware of was, Okay,
I hope this is a TV show that's like loved
(26:30):
and you know, along the lines of my so called
life at best. So I had only had really one
hit at that point, and it, let me tell you,
it was a cable hit, and so it was not
like it was not it was a smaller, utra ultra hit.
And then to go from being like, okay, you're a
showrunner to your the manager of a billion dollar brand
(26:54):
literally within a month, because what happened was the show
I was in Italy shooting with Julia when the shows
that we had had in the can started to shoot
started to air in September, and it was one of
those things where it came on and with every episode
(27:16):
it built and built and built, until I think by
episode three, when Kristin Chenowith came on the show, it
had just become a phenomenon that sometimes you see like
something just explodes out of the gate and then it's there.
So I was getting all of these calls from executive saying,
oh my god, it's doubled in the ratings, It's tripled
(27:38):
in the ratings. That that that, that that that, and
then the Fall Award nominations came out, and then the
music started to become it literally its own industry, and
I had that was overwhelming for me because you know,
pretty much for the first three years, any song that
was on Glee I handpicked, and it was because I
loved the song and I could sing it in car
(28:00):
like it was just like I would have CDs mixtapes
of things like. It was just I was a fan.
The show was about being a fan and a love
of pop music and Broadway music and classic rock yeah
who yeah, And a lot of that was Brad stuff.
You know, Brad was interested in the Springsteen stuff and
(28:21):
the Speedwagon stuff and um yeah, it was what was
interesting about it was so then it became suddenly like, Okay,
now you have a show that I believe, by the
time it hit the spring was the number one show
in the world. Then you had this other component, which
is the music, which for a long time, the record
(28:42):
held where the Glee cast was, you know, the number
one recording artist in the world. I think it held
until last year until Drake snatched it away with his
Canadian hands. You know, I love that drink. He also
played a wheelchair bound student in a high school show. Yes,
he did can Then we did that, and then of
(29:02):
course it was that thing that happened, which in hindsight
was probably a mistake, which was let's go on tour,
because what happened the first season we had fun doing
the little you know, the radio city music hall thing
that felt like that at that that aren't that. It
was silly and crazy. But then to go and then
you guys became like little Taylor Swifts like that became
(29:25):
this thing and it just was it was. I was
very overwhelmed by the three headed hydra element of it
because again I knew nothing, and I had never had
any experience doing this, right, I had never had any
experience of running something on this level. Yep. I mean
there's no training for that unless you've actually done it before.
(29:45):
There's no school, like, here are the things you need
to know when you're running a billion dollar business that
is TV and music and touring. Well, this is the
This is the thing that's very I think up about Hollywood,
right is you can be a person who is writing
a script you are sitting in a room by yourself
with your Starbucks and a sad, broken down laptop. You
(30:07):
can write something, you can turn it in, and then
you can have a corporation say here's a billion dollars,
go have fun. And you're like, I don't know how
to hire people. I don't know how to manage people.
I don't know how to how am I supposed to
do all this while working on the creative element of
the show. It's truly like, you still have to turn
in two episodes back then, yeah, twenty two, and the
(30:29):
three of you wrote those yes to all together, yes
for the first two seasons. Yes, So it was It's
just I wish that there was some for to sort
of formal training on how to be a showrunner. And
you weren't given the keys to the kingdom unless you
learned how to not just manage your time, not just
manage other people, but also how to manage your own
(30:51):
mental health. Because I don't know any CEO in the
world who becomes CEO without like at least ten years
of training. So it's absolutely insane to be able to
you know, manage something, let alone a cultural phenomenon. It
was very, very very difficult for me, and I remember
feeling like I failed a lot, and I did fail
(31:13):
a lot, and I have, you know, regrets about that
about I shouldn't have done a lot of those things.
I shouldn't have agreed to a lot of those things.
But at the same point, I'll never forget that opening
night at Staples Center. It was insane. It was like, well, who, like, okay,
check that up the bucket list. But there was a
(31:35):
cost to that, you know, there was I can't even imagine,
and I mean I do imagine, but like for you
guys having to not just do twenty two episodes a
year of a one hour but recorded the musical numbers
while in choreography between takes. I mean, thank god you
were all so young. But it was but you know,
(31:59):
back then and there was no conversation about mental health.
There was no conversation about, um, none of that stuff.
We want to we really want to dive into that
on this podcast too, about you know, like taking care
of yourself and what and how Hollywood does generate this
like go go go kind of hustle culture that um,
(32:20):
you you really do have to look out for yourself
and some people don't even know how to um. And
I think for us it was like over everything was
so overnight for you. For us, like this was all
brand new territory and we didn't know how to We
couldn't say no, We didn't know how to say no.
In a way, that's how I felt. I could not
(32:41):
say no because you know, for what, it's so hard
to get a job. You finally get a job, you
get hired on the show, and then it's successful, and
then on top of that, it's it means a lot
to people, you know, like you hope to get a job,
and you hope the check clears and you get to
keep going back every day. But at the same time,
we're now you know, hearing from people like what you
hope for the show, it did find his audience and
(33:02):
it was a lot bigger than you ever could have imagined.
And it's like, I think we come from the world
of especially the theater world with Jenna and Leah, where
it's like you just put your head down and work
that you say thank you and you go full out
whenever you're asked to work. And so I had the
same experience and the only gauge I had that we
(33:24):
were probably doing more than what was normal. Was sort
of from the crew. They're like, anything you do after
this is going to be easier. You know, I do
want to win in one thing that I just said,
because I was thinking about it about you know, the
(33:47):
truth of the matter is I did say yes that
the responsibility is on me. And I'll tell you why
I said yes to all of these things because when
I first started off in the business, you know, it
was a gay guy. I would go to meetings with
executives and some of them would literally imitate my voice
like it was rough. It was really really hard, and
(34:07):
I thought, I'm never going to be a success. I'm
never going to get a job. My show was canceled
the first two seasons after popular. After that, I struggled.
So I knew what it was like to have a
weird sensibility and to not work. So once you get
a green light and you're driving a very fast car,
if the next light is a green light, it's human
(34:28):
nature to go through the green light, to take the
yes because it may never come back again. And of
course I've since realized that that's probably was not the
way to be, but just for my own life, I
was like, well, this could be the end. So the
only time I ever said no was in the middle
of the third season. They really did want to do
(34:50):
a Darren Chris Dalton Warbler's spinoff, and I said, I
don't think that's I don't think I think. Wow, Yeah,
we we were talking about doing a Warbler spinoff, and
I said, I just I don't have the bandwidth. I
can't do it. And I should have done it. Actually,
looking back on it, what I wouldn't kill to have
done that show because it would have been great. Um,
(35:12):
it would have been and it would have solved a
lot of other problems. But I yeah, I mean, I
just would like to emphasize again, and I've said this
to you. You know, we had a really an interesting
thing that happened in my life when Naya passed away.
It was a moment where all of us were kind
(35:32):
of brought back together for a while in grief, and
we finally all got to say, you know what I
really think of you, and you know what I really
think you did, and you know how I really felt
about that experience. And it was really interesting for me
to hear the truth that you guys had, which was,
you know, we had started it in such a tight,
(35:56):
loving way. And then as it went on and it
became bigger, I sort of felt like I just became
so overwhelmed by the business aspect of it that I
became almost like an absentee father who shows up at
the end of the day and pats the kids. And
I had no idea to think that. You guys were like,
where did dad go? Why? What? Where did you go?
(36:19):
And where I was at was I was in meetings
looking at glee merch, trying to pick the right color
of blue, or planning the tour, or dealing with the
ratings or right the awards. Yes, it was. It was,
And it was interesting to go through that experience with
(36:39):
you guys not so long ago, to sort of sit
and be like, huh, yeah, I kind of that up.
And I wish I had been more present. I wish
I had known. I wish I had known how to
be um a proper parent like I did not know.
I was making it up as I was going along.
(37:01):
And the interesting thing about that whole experience was that
it really did prepare me for parenting. It taught me
a lot about how to be with young people, what
to do and what not to do and also more importantly,
like the most important thing is the human connection, and um, yeah,
(37:22):
all the other stuff doesn't matter, like the tour should
should not have mattered. And I wish I had just
sat my ass on that set and enjoyed the experience
and was there just because I remember sometimes when I
would show up later and waft in in my black
vampire outfits just sit there that you know, like I
(37:44):
remember just like you guys would look at me like
mm hmmmmnet there was a disconnect and then but slowly
you would all I would, I would, you know, be
sitting there and slowly the next thing that we'd be
sitting there singing Andy Monica songs like we did when
we were making the pilot and it felt like, oh,
that feeling that we all had the love that we
(38:06):
had for that's just each other, but what we were doing,
UM was still there. And I think a lot about
and you know, and also I had, UM I've never
been as close to a cast. I've never tried to
be as close to a cast, because I think that
all of our lines like where we friends, was I
your boss? I I was I was Actually the thing
(38:29):
that people also think about shoan Runners is like, you know,
we actually all worked for the same person. We were
all employees of Fox. I was not your boss. I
was an employee, although I was given this sort of
position of power that I really was not prepared for.
But yeah, it was a It was a particularly those
beginning years were really really heavy and overwhelming. But I
(38:52):
have to say I look back on it with a
real great degree of of affection because for every bad moment,
there were like a hundred great moments. And I just
the thing that I remember so vividly was I had
a house account at the Chateau Armant and I cannot
tell you how many nights we as a group shut
that place down. I mean we had a ball. We
(39:16):
had a ball, and I remember even some of the
first award shows we went to as a group. We
won't name them, but I just remember us having a
sense of what is happening, like it was so fun.
It was, it was so fun, and we we had
a ball, and we were just always together. We were
(39:37):
always together, whether it was filming at dinner, we were
together more than we were with our own families. And
and I think you're right, run like, thanks for sharing that.
I feel like in a parallel, parallel universe we were
going through the same thing where we didn't we weren't
prepared for what was happening in our lives, and we
(39:58):
weren't prepared for it, and we loved this show, and
we you know, I I look back with very fond memories.
Now a million good things outweigh the one bad thing
in the press that we see these days. You know,
a million great things that weren't talked about, And I
think that's what we want to do on this show,
is share all of those. But you know, in this
(40:18):
parallel universe, like the show was ours for those first
thirteen twenty episodes or however many we did before the
world kind of took it. And that's that was for
us to make for them in many ways, like it
changed many lives, it saved lives, and and I'm so
grateful for that because it kept us going and those
(40:40):
really hard and seasons of like people are still hanging
on and still with us and still really enjoying this,
so we do it for them. But um early on,
like it was ours and then all the power and
everything was kind of like it became so external, and
that was like an incredibly difficult shift that none of us,
(41:01):
I think had the time or energy to process at
that point. We were so exhausted and we were still working.
You were you started horror story at that point, Like
there were a million things going on that like nobody
got to sit in process until you come to a
point where you lose one friend, you lose two friends,
you lose three friends, you lose crew members, you lose
all these really important people in such a momentous time
(41:24):
in your life that you go back and go, what
was it really about? What was it that made it
so special that gives you that feeling of Like I
remember when we went to the upfronts for the first
time and we watched that trailer that we had made,
and I was bawling and They're like everybody's laughing at me,
but I was like, I love this thing. I get it,
like I got it before I think some people got
(41:46):
in and I was. I just so attached to it
and attached to all of us and this little family
that we had made. So yeah, I think I agree
with you. Like I look at back at that period
and I remember being emotional about every cut, like showing
you guys and sitting in those rooms and crying. And
I think, if you look back at it, it it was
(42:07):
a very interesting group of people because all of us
had something in common. And the thing that when I
look back is we all were kind of nerds, and
we all felt unloved and unseen, not just maybe in
our families but by the business. We all were like
these kind of people that had weird, unique talents that
(42:28):
were unseen and finally we got to show them. And
then against all odds, people loved us after hating us
for so long. At least that's how I felt. And
that's a very emotional thing that we went through because
we were kind of united. We were all marginalized people
and suddenly we became the establishment and the trend setters,
(42:51):
and that also can screw with your ego, and that
was also very interesting and bizarre to me, and um
a lesson learned. But yeah, I just I just, you know,
it's that thing. I always think, like, God, I really
did love it, and if I could, those those two
years I will say, from the making of the Glee
(43:12):
pilot probably to two thousand and eleven were, without questioned,
the happiest years of my life. Without a doubt. I
look back on that time and I think, wow, that's
what I was doing Glee. That's when I met my
better I mean, I've been friends with my better half,
but you know, I started dating him because he was
dating some guy who was like twenty years old. And
he called me up after a long time where I
(43:33):
hadn't spoken to me. He said, can you get me
Glee tickets from the guy? I'm like, you've got to
be kidding, and so he I got. I'm like, okay,
So I got him tickets to the Radio City Glee thing.
And I was, you know, chain smoking at the time,
so I was rail thin, and I was wearing this
Jill sound or coat and I looked good for like
(43:56):
two weeks in my life. And that was the period.
And then he saw remember the skinny mini, and then
he was like, who is what happened here? So that
that's how I started to date David that night and
then we kis married right David's But it's sort of
(44:17):
that was a great period in my life. Of listen,
there were battle royal's but it was fun because you know,
again I get back to it was the first the
first big success, the first moment in the spotlight where
you know, we were all kids, I think, knowing all
you guys who were singing in front of mirrors with
hair brushes, and then you get to be in a
(44:37):
global stage doing something like that, it was a wondrous time.
It was constantly, every single day was like all of
our wildest dreams coming true. I feel like, as easy
as it is now to look back and be like, yeah,
here are things we could have done differently, I also
feel like and that in the beginning, by you putting
yourself out there to be our friend, you know, and
(45:00):
be that close to us, for better or for worse,
it did make us feel safe and protected. Though. It
did allow us to show up every day and to
show our unique abilities and talents and skills that nobody
else cared to see before. And so I do think
because of that, because of the tone you said that, yeah,
even if we hadn't seen you for a while and
(45:21):
you'd come out set, we'd still run over to you
because you felt like a foundational aspect of who we are,
who we are or were in relationship to the show,
and so you allowed us to be all of those things.
You pushed us to be our better selves and get
(45:41):
our talent out there as much as possible. In the
very beginning, yes we're retired. Yeah yeah. And then of
course it was that thing where you know, I also
had I remember like I I was the person that
also had to be the disciplinarian about some of these things,
like you know, laying down the law, which is absolutely
(46:03):
absurd now, like you know what it should have been.
There should have been some person who was just in
charge of schedules and personalities, and it's like, you know,
there was there was no exactly but you know, like
I'll just speak graphically and we can cut it out,
you know, like if you want. But I started off
(46:27):
that job as a writer and a producer, and halfway
through that job, because of the phenomenon that it became
and the things that then happened when you were part
of a phenomenon, and some of them are good, some
of them are bad, you know, I had to deal
with things that are absolutely batshit crazy out of my knowledge.
(46:48):
Like I had no idea about how to handle domestic violence.
I had no idea how to handle addiction. I had
no idea how to handle unwanted pregnancies. I had no
idea how to do any of these things. So I
was in this role of like the boss but also
a friend and actually loving everyone. And then it was
(47:08):
just very, very overwhelming, and um again, it really did
teach me about parenting and what not to do, what
to do and yeah, and I'm just I'm just so
relieved and thrilled that at the end of the day.
And again, I'll go back to the Naya thing, which
was incredibly healing, but I'm glad that we all got
(47:28):
to have these It was like a couple of weeks
to really talk about what Glee did to us and
what Glee did for us, and those are two very
different things. And it was really healing and getting to
because you and I would tell you guys, like, Okay,
you had that feeling, but did you know that when
that was going on, I was doing X X Y Y,
(47:49):
and you guys had no idea because I would always
keep that stuff from you for the most part. But
that was that was interesting to share what I was
going through too, because so many times I think you
guys would think that I was just this sort of
automaton dressed in calmed Garson who would come level but
it wasn't that I was torn up and struggling and
(48:10):
trying to figure it out. I found it interesting when
when we did you the night when Naya I went missing,
you called me Ryan, and I remember thinking, because at
(48:34):
that point I was we were all distraught and you know,
wondering what was happening. And I remember in the sense
that I had anytime I talked to you always talked
about Glee with sort of this I don't know if
it was anger or it wasn't definitely wasn't positivity. It
was sort of like I'm over at everything's annoying, everyone's whatever.
And you called me and I was sort of like, look,
(48:57):
I don't know how it came up, but I was like,
I don't know what impression you have of the show,
but it has brought a lot of us, a lot
of good and a lot of positivity and a lot
of joy. And and then from there you and I
talked every day for I don't know, almost a month,
(49:19):
and very quickly it turned into you know, what do
we all have to lose by not talking to you
directly into each other about the things that brought us together,
and then what sort of took us apart? And it
was very interesting also to like watch your transformation sort
(49:41):
of every phone call of also working through things the
way we were also all working through things, and I
felt like it was very um as and it was
such odd timing but made sense that It's like, of
course Nia is going to just have us talk about everything,
through everything out there as she would. And it was
(50:03):
through grief, like you said, be able to completely sort
of like open up all the wounds from everyone and
just spill it. And you were like, I'll take it.
I will sit there and i will take it because
I want everyone to know that I'm listening and hearing
what they're saying and I'm accepting, you know, their experience,
(50:23):
and I was on the other side of it, and um,
it is interesting now to hear how you've also like
shifted and had this more you know, positive outlook, because
I think it's it's so easy to get way down,
especially externally by all like the ship people say who
weren't involved in it at all, and it's like, no,
we spent years having just incredible, incredible, positive, joyful experiences
(50:49):
and getting to do craziest things like in one weekend
we performed on Oprah and then went to the White
House and hung out at the White House and then
performed at the White House. Did it was like we
would rather you did. I was there, you were there,
We were doing insane things, and there were so many
great things that we And the reason we're always going
to be connected like this and so deeply is because
(51:11):
only we only have each other to relate to end this,
because nobody else went through this, and we all went
through a very specific set of circumstances. And so I
think that's also why we feel things so deeply with
each other. Where the highs are high and the lows
are low, is because like family, it's like, well, I
have no one else to relate to on this, so
like I, I either hate you or I love you,
(51:34):
and I can say I hate you because I love you.
And so it's sort of that high school drama that
you know doesn't ever and unless you face a head
on which you sort of spearheaded, that wasn't That was
an interesting um switch for me at Also other things
(51:54):
started to happen at that time, right, I mean, I
think the thing for me is like that idea of
being a part of a cultural phenomenon and sort of
going so high that once you're so high, you can
only come down, and the feeling coming down is not
good for anybody. It doesn't feel good. And then the
media starts to take, you know, shots at you and
(52:15):
punish you for the thing that they actually rewarded you
for identically six months before so. And then you did
warn us of that, by the way, I distinctly, but
I guess we were super young, but you did walk
us through those things until it happens. It's sort of
unbelievable theoretical. I think the thing that happened for me
(52:36):
was there was a there was a turning point for
me where, um, I was in it. I was in it.
I was and then you know that thing where you're
like the gay kid, who, what do you mean? You're
gonna make my dream horror show and green light that? Yes?
What do you mean? I can go do the normal
heart yes? Like I just was so thinking that I
would never work again that I took the yeses and
(52:58):
then I started to build this business that I've really enjoyed,
and that kind of took me further out to see.
And then I think you guys felt further estrange for
me because physically I wasn't there creatively. Then you know,
we added a writer's room and it became a bigger thing.
And I think the thing that happened for me to
(53:18):
be blunt was, you know, Corey died, and then after
Corey's death and I had to plan a memorial service,
I was like, I don't, I don't know how to
do this anymore. I can't, I don't know what to do. Um.
And it was so painful and dark, and I think
we all felt that. But you know, there was also
(53:39):
a very large crew who had been with us from
the beginning who was very little, yeah, just no turnover.
It was a family, and people wanted to keep working,
and well not everybody, there were a few that didn't,
but UM, I just think that after that, I was
sort of like Elvis has left the building. I think
my spirit had gone out of it. And I was
(54:00):
so devastated by his death, UM that I had to
step away from my own mental health, even though I
didn't call it mental health at the time. So it
did become like this sort of thing where there was
a lot of space between us. But then recently what
has happened is we all, most of us got back
(54:21):
together in a very adult good way and had adult conversations.
You guys are adults now you're not kids, you know,
And sort of that was a shift in all of
your lives. You have partners, you have children, like um,
you process it differently. And then now you know, Glee
is on Hulu, It's on Disney Plus, and every day
(54:44):
there are people who reach out to me about my
eight year old is watching this show. And these young
people have no memory of it being in the media
and a cultural phenomenon. They're just loving the musical experience
of it. So that to me has been sort of
reinvigorating and like, oh, the work lasted and the works
(55:05):
tested the you know. And it's also hilarious to me
some of the stuff that we did in those later
seasons that were so mercilessly attacked by the press. Example,
remember when we did those scenes with Sue as Jigsaw
and and like the Puppet and Jane had the hurt Rocker.
(55:27):
I believe that there were there were many columns written
about that I should be killed for those scenes, but
now they are among the most beloved watched streamed like,
so it's interesting, like everything comes still wrong, You're still
wrong for what the Fox is Kevin and Style. Okay,
(55:49):
let's talk about these two songs, which I have been
a gang of style and what the Fox says. I
would like you to put yourself in my little I
understand why you did it? Understand Okay, twenty two episodes
a year to fill. Right, So when you're doing it
and you're like, well, what's that. That's what's at the
top of the charts, like, um, yeah, And if you
(56:14):
look at that show, you can also look at like
what was popular and what was classic, like it was
a weird mixture. And yes, I will say Gangham style
not the best moment, but there was a reason why
it was only because it was so incredibly popular. And
Glee in some regards, was like the jukebox musical of
its day, the top of the pops. You could tune
(56:35):
in to see what was totally popular. But I don't know,
is that is that your least favorite number? Nay. I
felt like I was the last one to break out
of the cast, the last and that was my breaking
point because I think I think it's because I don't
(57:00):
I don't know, but there was something about having puppets
and doing that and doing that number or I it
was just like what fever? Dream? What has happened? Dream?
And there's an actual shot of me looking into the
camera where I'm just like, I don't know. I think
(57:21):
it was just because like, okay, am I allowed to break?
Now everyone else has broken. It took a very long
time for you. And this is my reaction. But I
will say, do you remember, like, speaking of all the
current music, people used to send you their music, like
I remember Gaga sent you Born Born this Way album
because Brad and you you guys walked back onto set
(57:42):
and Brad was like, oh, yeah, we just Lady Gaga's
people brought us over their music. Brad Falchuk the straightest
man on earth talking about listening to Lady Gaga and
I was like, oh my god, how was it like?
And he was like, oh yeah, there's probably some hits
on there. I'm like, where's Ryan? And so I knew
exactly what the hits with ye like that was? That was?
(58:04):
That was? You know, that was That was a very
interesting period and again McCartney sent his music over. UM.
I learned a lot from that period. Um. That was
a weird period where when Glee became popular that we
could reach out to any artist in the world, and
they would pretty much say yes except a few yeah.
(58:28):
But I also learned something like that from that, like
you know that whole Kings of Leon thing when when
that was the first rejection, I think, and I took
it personally and I gave an interview with a lot
of you briss in a really big head and and
said really stupid things, And looking back on it, I
feel like they were right, like you as an artist
should be allowed to, you know, do with your music
(58:51):
what you will. And I should never have said anything.
I that was just the I learned a lot of
life lessons and I was such a jerk in that interview.
I don't know why I said some stupid thing about
depriving America's children of Kings of Leam. I don't remember that,
but it was. It was not good. Don't remember then
they came out because I was devastated. I love you.
(59:14):
I love that we were sitting in the same row
as them at the Grammys. I was like, oh, I
was like, this is embarrassing. I love you. I had
I had that moment with Dave Grohl, who I really
love as an artist, and he spoke out against that interview.
I don't know if you recall saying, who is this
(59:35):
guy saying something? And I was going to some another
awful award show moment and he was in front of
me and turned around and goes, oh, hi hi, He goes,
It's all good. He was such a lovely guy. And
he was such a lovely guy. But again, things that
you learned, Like I never had any media training. I
(59:56):
was just so thrilled to literally have Taylor Swift and
Beyonce an Adele remember Adele Adele would talk about her
love of Glee and her love of Amber and just
like that was that was amazing, Like to be a
part of those that experience with that level of artists,
To have Stevie Nicks show up on set and send flowers,
(01:00:20):
remember that huge flower arrangement she sent, that craft room
we had, she gave, she talked to us in the
Glee in the classroom, and she was It was just
like that really great period where as a fan, you
could say, or I could say, like I wanted to
do songs and pay tribute to people that I loved,
(01:00:43):
like Barbara Streisan. You know, I got to meet Barbara
because of Glee and become friends with her. So it
was like past and present, but it was it was.
It was that show in the in the in the
moment in time, was UM an indisputable force in terms
of I was would say, you know, showcasing the love
of music, and to me, that's what it really was about.
(01:01:05):
It was about I love music. Music is something that
brings people together. It's a great equalizer. I, you know,
had the lead in every musical in high school. One
of my great tragedies is that I did not become
a pop music singer. What I really wanted to be
was a pop music singer and or the editor in
chief of Vogue, and I could not do either of them,
(01:01:25):
which is why I'm doing what I'm doing. So we know,
you can run a little bit. I can't actually, and
by run we mean I only I only could do
one thing. But it was just fun and UM that's
the that's the joy of that show is UM. I
(01:01:51):
think the love of music that even if you watch it,
I think you can tell now because I went back
in preparation for this and watch some of the old
episodes and you can tell, like, oh, they really did
love what they were doing and they really did have
a great appreciation and admiration for these artists, and we
were interpreting them in different ways and mashing things up,
and it was all like love letters to me, except
(01:02:15):
Gangham style not a love letter. Three am, what are
we going to do in here? But I still love
that song I do. I'm sorry, I love it selfishly.
I mean that K pop episode. I remember Brad turning
to me. He's like, do you I heard you like
K pop? I was like, I love K pop. He's like,
what can we put in the background of the scene.
I'm like, I'll send you a whole list and I
(01:02:36):
got my favorite K pop artists? You did? Yes, we're
like rehearsing to to Big Bang, which was my favorite
group at the time. But what season was this? What
was this? No? God three or four must have been
later um in the spirit of like artists and all
these amazing people. What about the guest stars and and
talk about the casting of the pilot as well, like
(01:02:58):
were you pitched big name like and what made you
decide to go with all of us little unknown? You know, well,
that was a that was a wondrous, amazing um casting
session that I've really only had once since, and that
was with the cast of Pose. It was a very
(01:03:19):
similar idea, which was, let's let's make stars. Let's there's
so much talent out there, let's let's find people. When
we were writing the the pilot, I've never really talked
about this. That pilot was written for Justin Timber, Mr
(01:03:40):
Shoe was written for Justice. Wait a second, hold up,
this is actually brand new information. I think we need
to pause and we'll we will talk about this next time.
So come back next week to hear the second part
of our almost three hour conversation with Ryan Murphy, because
(01:04:00):
you don't want to miss it. It's just getting started.
And that's what you really missed with Jenna and Kevin
and I Heart radio podcast. We're back here. We are welcome. Oh,
welcome to and that's what you really missed. You be
rated us. You reached us on every social media platform.
(00:23):
You would not leave us alone. No, and we tried
to ignore it. It worked. Whatever you did worked. Thanks
for Thanks for coming back, Thanks for making us come back.
We're here with you, and we are we are excited
to revisit this with new eyes. Yeah. I think two
(00:46):
Eyes are very different from even two years ago. Yes,
and so it's nice to pick this back up. And
I think Jen and I have a plan for this
for this version. We're going in depth. We're going to
be very open. We're gonna we're not gonna sugarcoat. We're
gonna talk about everything. Um and I think ultimately, Jenna,
(01:07):
you and I talked about is that there was so
much joy in the process of making Glee. Yes, obviously
there are bad things and we will talk about them,
but there was a lot of good and we want
to explore that. We want to get into the details
of the nitty gritty of different departments and who the
show have impacted and affected and so going into this
(01:28):
first episode and to relaunching this whole thing, we were
talking about who could we have, Well, we figured we'd
start at the top, right who who better than the man,
the myth, the legend himself, Ryan Murphy. Ryan Murphy, Honestly,
I feel like there was a reckoning in the last
(01:49):
two years in the best way possible. Um, what you've
seen in the media, what you've seen is just a
snippet of all of them, of the madness that went
on around Glee. But there's so much good and there
was so much joy and this thing was, honestly, at
least the first couple of years, was made with so
(02:09):
much love and UM, I'm just really excited to share
that with you guys. And I feel like we've we've
had this, you know, open conversation with Ryan Murphy over
the last two years as well, and with all of that,
I think everybody's going to this with a new perspective
of some sort and and that's why we're doing this
(02:31):
and who better to kick it off. We just talk
to Ryan for almost three hours. He was so great, open,
an honest conversation, and we learned a lot of things
we never knew about behind the scenes. We asked a
lot of things, we had questions about that we we
(02:52):
have been dying to ask um that we may never
get those answers again. So and he was not shying
away from and and everything. Buckle up. We hope you
enjoy this. We sure did. We learned a lot and
here's our kickoff episode. Enjoy our conversation with Ryan Murphy.
Let's start at the very beginning, Ryan Murphy. For the people, everybody,
(03:16):
this is why old people right, this is Ryan Show today.
Seeing as we have you, we're not going to let
you go until we go through everything. And you signed
off on that I did. I sort of told you both, like,
you know, I've never really talked about Glee or the
(03:37):
making of Glee, and you know, for all of us,
I think it was the beginning of a lot of things,
the end of a lot of things. And I thought,
you know what, I'm just going to talk about all
of it and say an answer anything that's asked me,
and then this is going to be like a really
intense therapy session. So I have my clean xbox nearby,
(03:58):
and already your ugs on, you're on a couch, my
egs on. I'm on a couch. I decided to treat
this like a psychological experiment, and we've all taken and
we're ready. We're ready to dive deep. I'm ready to
deep dive and answer any arcane. There's no question too
small or too big. I think we all need this
for some reason. Glee happened over fifteen years ago, and
(04:21):
it keeps coming back and people won't let it die.
So let's just do it this. We're bringing it. Let's
let's go at the very beginning, very beginning. Yeah, I
think so two thousand seven or two thousand eight, Niptuck
was in the throes of success, still in the air. Um,
you remember you did a pilot called Pretty Handsome with
(04:44):
John Grof and you carry and Moss. Yeah, you showed us,
I showed you, guys, and that pilot didn't go didn't
go forward. How did you go from What was this
process like? Because the story we you heard was you
met someone at a gym and got handed a script
and eventually that turned into Glee. But what was your
(05:06):
experience of how did Glee happen coming off of Pretty
Handsome and Niptuck still being on the air. Mm hmm,
it was it was always a great It's a great
lesson that I always tell people, particularly young people, like
every crushing no leads to the ultimate, bigger yes. And
(05:27):
that's exactly what happened in the case of Glee. So
I had this big, shiny hit called Niptuck. And when
you have a hit like that, you know pretty much
the next thing that you do, particularly if you're doing
it for the same network, they will say, Okay, great,
let's do that. So I put my heart into this
show called Pretty Handsome with Joseph Findes. It was actually
(05:51):
the first time I think Jonathan Groff had ever been
before a camera, as I remember, and I remember saying like,
you can't look into the lens, like that's the rule
number one. And he was so charming and was you know,
the typical Johnny fashioned like Olivier and Take one. And
so I did it. It was it was very much
(06:11):
like Transparent. It was it was like ten years before Transparent,
and we all loved it and thought it was great.
It was about um, a male guyd of collegist who
realize that he's a woman and Dot Marie Jones was
in it, and you know, it was just an amazing
cast and they called me up and they said, we
(06:33):
love this, we think it's one of the best things
that we've ever seen. We cannot sell advertising for it.
The advertiser advertisers have already told us no, and we
can't put it on the air. And I was really
really upset, and I think I took to my bed
for two weeks. And right at the same time, I
had started an overall deal at Fox with Dana Walden,
(06:53):
who has gone on to be my big mentor and champion,
and she made me have a dinner where her and
she said, you can't be depressed about this. You just
have to keep going on and you have to challenge yourself.
And she said, what have you always wanted to do
that you've never done? And I said, well, I've always
(07:14):
wanted to do a musical. And she paused and she said, well,
that's not gonna work because there's never been a musical
that worked on television like there was famously this Stephen
Boco show called cop Rock, and then there was a
Melanie Griffith show around that time. I think it was
set in Las Vegas that was people singing, but it
didn't work. And I said, well, what if we do
(07:38):
a musical that goes on sometime after American Idol or
before American Idol, because that which was the biggest, biggest
show in the world. So while we were having these
conversations and I was trying to figure it out, like serendipity,
I went to the gym and I was in a
towel and a guy came up, Mike Novec came up
(07:58):
and handed me the script and he said said, I
have a feeling you were in show choir. Am I right?
And I was like, yeah, I guess I've got a
huge gay face in a towel in a gym, and
I said I was. And he said, my friend wrote
the script and you should read it, and he gave
it to me, and I didn't read it for a
couple of weeks while Dana and I were continually trying
(08:21):
to talk about, well, what is the musical to crack like,
what is it? At one point it was going to
be a draculum musical that would have gone over real great.
And so then I finally read Ian script on a plane,
and in Ian's original script, it was a very dark
comedy that had kind of the idea of it, and
Ian and I were both in quired and Mr Shoe
(08:45):
I believe as a crystal meth addict in Ian's script,
so I like doing was he like touching the children?
It was it was like a very dark dark It
was sort of like election, remember that Reese Wather's election,
but like the NC seventeen version of show Choir with
(09:06):
like a weird protagonist who is unraveling. And as soon
as I read it, I was like, Okay, well this
is it, and I said what if we? Because what
I loved was the idea of um kids in high school.
And one of the things that I have since learned
in um my career is it it seems like shows
(09:29):
that work or TV experiences that work very often feature
people going through quote unquote first times, first kiss, first loss,
first singing, singing experience, on and on and on. So
I kind of instinctively wanted to do something about first
and I wanted to do something after my transsexual show
(09:49):
didn't go that was the opposite of that. Like I
wanted something very very poppy and primary colors and blue
sky and not dark. I had done Niptuck and I
had done pretty handsome, and I was like, I just
need to do something optimistic, and so I convinced Ian
to work on a draft that sort of leaned into
(10:12):
all of that stuff, and we presented it to Dana
and she actually liked it and she said, I think
that this could actually work. So she was the first
champion of it, just as the idea UM. And then
we started writing that and it sort of took six
months to write it, and we wrote it, and then
(10:36):
the interesting thing was we turned it in and Kevin Riley,
who was had hired me at f f X and
was now running Fox with Peter Lagory, said I love
this pilot. It's weird, it'll probably never go It has
one huge problem, and knowing you, I'm shocked and disappointed
in you. And I said, oh my god, what And
(10:57):
he goes, there's no bad person in here, like all
these people are nice and optimistic, and he goes, there's
no one to hate, and I said, you're right, And
then Ian and I talked and within fifteen minutes, I said,
I know what it is. It's a horrible cheerleading coach
like Jane Jane Lynch type person. And I had worked
(11:17):
with Jane before UM, but we kept calling her Jane
Lynch like so that's then we put Cecil Vester into
the pilot script and if you notice going back that
character is not in it a lot um and and
and that's why because we just had to put it
in there to get it green lead. And then Kevin
was like, eureka, you've done it. So then it got
(11:41):
we got it picked up and we were off to
the races. But it was a very interesting, bizarre way
to make something. What's I remember you when you would
sort of tell us like the short version of that
story back in the day when you like I walked
into Fox and they were like, okay, sure, go for it.
Was like, who in the right mind would be like, yeah, um,
(12:04):
you this TV person who has created all these dark
shows and this pilot that we love that we can't
actually green light. We want you to go for this
thing that's probably the hardest thing to get success with.
And they were like, yeah, go for it. On multiple levels, well,
like do you feel like you were out of your
element or in your element? Because we always kept like
(12:25):
when we were doing press after the pilot, everybody was like,
this is so not Ryan Murphy. This is this is
the opposite of what Ryan Murphy does. Like, do you
feel like you are in or out of your element
creating this show. I really felt like I was in
my element because you know, I had kind of lived
that show in a weird way, because there were parts
(12:50):
of me in all of the regular parts, you know,
the small group of regulars. Then it became like you know,
Night of a Thousand Stars eventually, but they were like
five key part and I think there was a lot
of me in all of those parts, because you know,
Ian and I had really were working on the just
the ideas of it, and I felt very personal to
(13:10):
all of them, you know. Um, And you know, I
started this business writing Popular, which was a very also
a high school show that was a comedy. But then
I became the prince of Darkness. And I think that
what the town does is that you are your last hit, right,
so then you're suddenly that thing. And I never thought
(13:31):
it was true. And it was a very interesting time
in the life of show business in Hollywood because if
you look back at it now, you know, really the
two biggest champions of Glee, we're Dana Walden and Jen Sulky.
Jen has gone on to run Amazon, and these two
powerhouses were the ones I wouldn't say they were battling
(13:53):
the guys, because the guys, you know, Kevin Riley and
and Peter Rice and Peter Legory were always interested in it.
But it was a very interesting, long battle. But for
some there was something about it that as soon as
we made it, I just knew that it was special,
and I kept just saying to everybody, just get it
(14:15):
on the air, and if it gets on the air,
I know it's gonna work. So you know, when you
that was back when there was such a thing as
pilot season. So we made the pilot and we turned
it in and you had to do things called test screeners.
So we took Glee, Dane and I in Jen and
we went to some place in Studio City with a
(14:38):
test audience and we showed it to them, and I
think it literally got the worst scores in the history
of the bombed. It was just like complete bomb And
the thing that at the end of it um the
people didn't realize it was a musical, so they kept
there was like checked which category or you best, how
(15:01):
you would market this show? And they not a single
person and there were thirty six people in that room
thought that it was a musical. Um, so they one
person a lot of people thought it was a satire
and they would they wrote that, which it kind of was. Yeah.
So then there was the powerful person in the world
(15:28):
who really didn't understand it, and there was you know,
back then there all these different levels of programmers. There
was also a lot of I'll just say it, there
was a lot of homophobic fear about this show. Um.
There was one very powerful person within the corporation who
would repeatedly at screenings of it when they were showing
it before it was picked up, who kept calling it
the fag show, which made everybody in the executives who
(15:52):
had championed it furious. And that was back in the
day where you could say this in a room full
of people and nobody would bat an eye, especially you
were super super powerful, super powerful in your doctors, you know,
standing there and that you know, like this person also
came up to me a different no matter. It was
(16:14):
just hilarious. Like it was one of those things where
there were like really five people who believed in it.
And then there was Joe Early, who did the marketing
of it, instantly got what it was. He was the
one who working with me came up with the color
scape of the yellows and the reds and all of
you guys doing the l's on your head. It was
(16:38):
very simple, and we worked, Joe and I worked a
lot on that concept. But the thing about it that
was great is is it had all these guardian angels.
It had Dana first and foremost, who after that disastrous
test screating took me out for a drink and she said,
you know what, I don't care. I don't care what
they think they're wrong. What version was the test? Was
(17:00):
it the one that actually aired? No, the version of
the test had the infamous long Um disco dancing segment
with Mr She was a child Um. And I will say, like,
after that disastrous screening, the good thing about that screening
(17:20):
was it sort of made everybody put on there, Okay, well,
how do we convince people that this is a mainstream concept? Um?
And it was. The idea was if you take that
out and get right to you know, because that was
polarizing because the costumes were like based on Copacabana. It
was very very odd and so that that was the
(17:42):
first thing to go, and not much after that, and
once that we lifted that out I think it's since
been seen in like DVD cuts and things like that.
Um we um, yeah, we we took that out and
then um people were more comed rble with it. And
then we didn't make any changes at all. And then
the interesting thing was, I don't know if it was
(18:05):
based on my relationships, I think so. Um. And also
just because the like Dana and gen and and everybody
had been the ringer through it, we got like the
first thirteen ordered and that was a magical thing because
you know, we got to make those first the first
thirteen episodes, no one had seen it, no one had
(18:27):
watched it, and we were on the paramount lots. Yeah,
we were making it in a real bubble and it
was the only thing I was working on the Pray
Love with Julia Roberts at the time. But you know,
it was very, very singular. I don't even remember how
many of those did I direct three of the thirteen?
I think, um, maybe three or four. But I was
(18:53):
I just remember making it and not really caring if
it was going to be a hit or a bomb,
because I knew that the first third Team would get
on the air, and I thought, well, maybe this is
gonna be like a Freaks and Geeks thing where you know,
the third teen will air and then it will be canceled,
(19:13):
but people will look back on it. Finally, because I
knew that it would mean something to anybody who had
been in show choir. Yeah, what were your expectations? None? None,
and you know, there was it. My expectation was actually
when we aired the pilot, it aired in May, I think,
right around the American Idolphin. It was right after the
(19:36):
season finale American, and I thought, just I don't know
how this is gonna do. And it did. And I
remember the next morning and there was that you know,
back then it's just not that long ago, but so
long ago, you know, you'd get the call. Well it did, okay,
it didn't do great, you know, but we still love you.
(19:57):
We hope that you don't look at this as discouraging.
It's it's okay and you got your being seen and yeah,
so it was sort of I always thought it was
gonna be like that, Like I thought it was gonna
be niche, because you know, I had gone through niche
before with Popular, you know, which aired for two seasons
and had a very small loyal old audience. Back then,
(20:18):
we would call it CULTI, but you look at the
ratings for those shows that are culty. Those ratings existed today.
Popular was more would be like Game of Thrones, like
more and more people were just watching television, and the
ratings were so high compared to now. So I think
I remember it the pilot aired, I got on a
(20:42):
plane and flew to Bali, right, and I just thought, well,
that's what it's gonna be. It's gonna air in the fall,
and it's gonna be something that we loved making and
we were all proud of, and it's just gonna kind
of be a culty thing and that's that. And I
had no expectation for the back seven episodes, although I
(21:03):
had things in mind, and I knew that if it
did get picked up, I was going to do a
Madonna episode and that was going to be my big
swan song. I'd come here to do what I was
gonna do. So I had no exactly and I had
no plans other than that. And I don't know how
you guys felt. I remember the last day of shooting.
(21:25):
I remember getting the cast together and saying something because
I had a really bad experience with the with the
niptuck ending, you know, and going through something that burned
really bright, and then everybody kind of falling apart, and
I remember giving a speech about staying close and being
in it for the work. I don't know if you
remember that. I believe. I believe I cried that a
(21:46):
couple of times. God help. But you know what I
really remember about that time was, you know, even you're
you're saying that I showed you guys the pretty handsome pilot,
Like there were some time where, you know, almost all
of the cast was known in certain circles, Broadway circles, Jenna,
(22:07):
certainly Kevin from your musical background, but nobody really knew
a lot about the cast. And we spent every day together.
We had weekends together. I mean, I would bring you
guys into this little black room that was the size
of a closet, like thirteen of you, and I would
screen rough cuts just so that you would get excited
(22:29):
and people would be cheering everybody else's musical numbers. And
it was a very it was a very wonderful. You know,
I was single at the time. I had not you know,
but also Glee led me to my marriage, which is
another story. But yeah, it was like it was my life.
(22:51):
It was Julia Robertson, you guys and munt and we
were all we all that the stupidest things I could
possibly imagine. Stop talking now. Kevin and I remember we
talked about this a lot, like we spent It was
very much a bubble. The world hadn't seen the show yet.
We didn't know what it was going to be. Our
(23:12):
expectations were non um. In the middle of it, the
pilot airs and it does well, and all of a sudden,
there's these commercials of Glee was watched by fifteen million
people and the song's number one on iTunes. Were like,
we did the mall to this hot topic mall tour
or you know, like the thing that I'm glad that
you remember the headlines is being good because I remember
(23:34):
those headlines as well. They got fifteen million viewers, but
that's only because people who were watching American Idol forgot
to turn on the channel, So it's not a thing.
I remember thinking that because I was always sort of
the numbers guy, were like the cast. I would always
report back to the cast like what our ratings and
music were doing, and I remember being like, Okay, well,
they're like, really milking this. We don't really know yet,
(23:57):
but we are. In every department, I think it wasn't
just us, It wasn't just you. In every department, the crew, production,
behind the scenes, everyone felt the same thing, where no
one talked about if it was going to be successful
or not. We were just having the time of our lives.
We'd show up, we'd make the crew laugh, we'd have
to do these crazy musical numbers with the incredible Andrew
(24:19):
Mitchell and Steadycam and it was everyone just felt was
all in on making this thing work, that we you
were creating the formula as it was happening, and we
were all just sort of like, I don't know what
this is going to be. I don't know who this
is for, but we love it. It felt like it
was for us, and you know, it felt like you
(24:41):
were also you were very hands on with us from
the very beginning, where you gave us I don't know,
I think three or four speeches like the one you
talked about where and you did explain sort of vaguely
about coming off of this Niptuck experience where you wanted
to make sure that you handled this in a way
(25:01):
that you felt was better or healthier or a more
correct way to deal with the cast. And I think
because we were young and completely unknown and I don't
know us completely green, that you would talk us through,
like gently, sort of hold our hands through if their success,
if we're lucky enough to have any success, this is
(25:24):
sort of what will happen, and if it does happen,
this is how we should handle it together as a group.
And then when we did start to build momentum and
get success, you would sort of check in and be like, Okay,
here's where we are. This is very rare air and
this may never happen again. Yeah, like this is And
that was for you, that was for us, that was
for everyone. And I remember I feel like had you
(25:47):
not been there with the foresight to sort of talk
us through that you had been running shows before, but
you also didn't know at the time you were about
to be running this billion dollar business, so you didn't
know either. I knew nothing. Yeah, you know how to
run a successful show that was had a core fan
base and was getting picked up, and that's what you
(26:08):
were concerned about for us, which was I think very helpful.
But then it sort of exploded into this yeah, yeah,
it was. It was a I would say it was
like the best of times the worst of times for me.
The thing that I was very aware of was, Okay,
I hope this is a TV show that's like loved
(26:30):
and you know, along the lines of my so called
life at best. So I had only had really one
hit at that point, and it, let me tell you,
it was a cable hit, and so it was not
like it was not it was a smaller, utra ultra hit.
And then to go from being like, okay, you're a
showrunner to your the manager of a billion dollar brand
(26:54):
literally within a month, because what happened was the show
I was in Italy shooting with Julia when the shows
that we had had in the can started to shoot
started to air in September, and it was one of
those things where it came on and with every episode
(27:16):
it built and built and built, until I think by
episode three, when Kristin Chenowith came on the show, it
had just become a phenomenon that sometimes you see like
something just explodes out of the gate and then it's there.
So I was getting all of these calls from executive saying,
oh my god, it's doubled in the ratings, It's tripled
(27:38):
in the ratings. That that that, that that that, and
then the Fall Award nominations came out, and then the
music started to become it literally its own industry, and
I had that was overwhelming for me because you know,
pretty much for the first three years, any song that
was on Glee I handpicked, and it was because I
loved the song and I could sing it in car
(28:00):
like it was just like I would have CDs mixtapes
of things like. It was just I was a fan.
The show was about being a fan and a love
of pop music and Broadway music and classic rock yeah
who yeah, And a lot of that was Brad stuff.
You know, Brad was interested in the Springsteen stuff and
(28:21):
the Speedwagon stuff and um yeah, it was what was
interesting about it was so then it became suddenly like, Okay,
now you have a show that I believe, by the
time it hit the spring was the number one show
in the world. Then you had this other component, which
is the music, which for a long time, the record
(28:42):
held where the Glee cast was, you know, the number
one recording artist in the world. I think it held
until last year until Drake snatched it away with his
Canadian hands. You know, I love that drink. He also
played a wheelchair bound student in a high school show. Yes,
he did can Then we did that, and then of
(29:02):
course it was that thing that happened, which in hindsight
was probably a mistake, which was let's go on tour,
because what happened the first season we had fun doing
the little you know, the radio city music hall thing
that felt like that at that that aren't that. It
was silly and crazy. But then to go and then
you guys became like little Taylor Swifts like that became
(29:25):
this thing and it just was it was. I was
very overwhelmed by the three headed hydra element of it
because again I knew nothing, and I had never had
any experience doing this, right, I had never had any
experience of running something on this level. Yep. I mean
there's no training for that unless you've actually done it before.
(29:45):
There's no school, like, here are the things you need
to know when you're running a billion dollar business that
is TV and music and touring. Well, this is the
This is the thing that's very I think up about Hollywood,
right is you can be a person who is writing
a script you are sitting in a room by yourself
with your Starbucks and a sad, broken down laptop. You
(30:07):
can write something, you can turn it in, and then
you can have a corporation say here's a billion dollars,
go have fun. And you're like, I don't know how
to hire people. I don't know how to manage people.
I don't know how to how am I supposed to
do all this while working on the creative element of
the show. It's truly like, you still have to turn
in two episodes back then, yeah, twenty two, and the
(30:29):
three of you wrote those yes to all together, yes
for the first two seasons. Yes, So it was It's
just I wish that there was some for to sort
of formal training on how to be a showrunner. And
you weren't given the keys to the kingdom unless you
learned how to not just manage your time, not just
manage other people, but also how to manage your own
(30:51):
mental health. Because I don't know any CEO in the
world who becomes CEO without like at least ten years
of training. So it's absolutely insane to be able to
you know, manage something, let alone a cultural phenomenon. It
was very, very very difficult for me, and I remember
feeling like I failed a lot, and I did fail
(31:13):
a lot, and I have, you know, regrets about that
about I shouldn't have done a lot of those things.
I shouldn't have agreed to a lot of those things.
But at the same point, I'll never forget that opening
night at Staples Center. It was insane. It was like, well, who, like, okay,
check that up the bucket list. But there was a
(31:35):
cost to that, you know, there was I can't even imagine,
and I mean I do imagine, but like for you
guys having to not just do twenty two episodes a
year of a one hour but recorded the musical numbers
while in choreography between takes. I mean, thank god you
were all so young. But it was but you know,
(31:59):
back then and there was no conversation about mental health.
There was no conversation about, um, none of that stuff.
We want to we really want to dive into that
on this podcast too, about you know, like taking care
of yourself and what and how Hollywood does generate this
like go go go kind of hustle culture that um,
(32:20):
you you really do have to look out for yourself
and some people don't even know how to um. And
I think for us it was like over everything was
so overnight for you. For us, like this was all
brand new territory and we didn't know how to We
couldn't say no, We didn't know how to say no.
In a way, that's how I felt. I could not
(32:41):
say no because you know, for what, it's so hard
to get a job. You finally get a job, you
get hired on the show, and then it's successful, and
then on top of that, it's it means a lot
to people, you know, like you hope to get a job,
and you hope the check clears and you get to
keep going back every day. But at the same time,
we're now you know, hearing from people like what you
hope for the show, it did find his audience and
(33:02):
it was a lot bigger than you ever could have imagined.
And it's like, I think we come from the world
of especially the theater world with Jenna and Leah, where
it's like you just put your head down and work
that you say thank you and you go full out
whenever you're asked to work. And so I had the
same experience and the only gauge I had that we
(33:24):
were probably doing more than what was normal. Was sort
of from the crew. They're like, anything you do after
this is going to be easier. You know, I do
want to win in one thing that I just said,
because I was thinking about it about you know, the
(33:47):
truth of the matter is I did say yes that
the responsibility is on me. And I'll tell you why
I said yes to all of these things because when
I first started off in the business, you know, it
was a gay guy. I would go to meetings with
executives and some of them would literally imitate my voice
like it was rough. It was really really hard, and
(34:07):
I thought, I'm never going to be a success. I'm
never going to get a job. My show was canceled
the first two seasons after popular. After that, I struggled.
So I knew what it was like to have a
weird sensibility and to not work. So once you get
a green light and you're driving a very fast car,
if the next light is a green light, it's human
(34:28):
nature to go through the green light, to take the
yes because it may never come back again. And of
course I've since realized that that's probably was not the
way to be, but just for my own life, I
was like, well, this could be the end. So the
only time I ever said no was in the middle
of the third season. They really did want to do
(34:50):
a Darren Chris Dalton Warbler's spinoff, and I said, I
don't think that's I don't think I think. Wow, Yeah,
we we were talking about doing a Warbler spinoff, and
I said, I just I don't have the bandwidth. I
can't do it. And I should have done it. Actually,
looking back on it, what I wouldn't kill to have
done that show because it would have been great. Um,
(35:12):
it would have been and it would have solved a
lot of other problems. But I yeah, I mean, I
just would like to emphasize again, and I've said this
to you. You know, we had a really an interesting
thing that happened in my life when Naya passed away.
It was a moment where all of us were kind
(35:32):
of brought back together for a while in grief, and
we finally all got to say, you know what I
really think of you, and you know what I really
think you did, and you know how I really felt
about that experience. And it was really interesting for me
to hear the truth that you guys had, which was,
you know, we had started it in such a tight,
(35:56):
loving way. And then as it went on and it
became bigger, I sort of felt like I just became
so overwhelmed by the business aspect of it that I
became almost like an absentee father who shows up at
the end of the day and pats the kids. And
I had no idea to think that. You guys were like,
where did dad go? Why? What? Where did you go?
(36:19):
And where I was at was I was in meetings
looking at glee merch, trying to pick the right color
of blue, or planning the tour, or dealing with the
ratings or right the awards. Yes, it was. It was,
And it was interesting to go through that experience with
(36:39):
you guys not so long ago, to sort of sit
and be like, huh, yeah, I kind of that up.
And I wish I had been more present. I wish
I had known. I wish I had known how to
be um a proper parent like I did not know.
I was making it up as I was going along.
(37:01):
And the interesting thing about that whole experience was that
it really did prepare me for parenting. It taught me
a lot about how to be with young people, what
to do and what not to do and also more importantly,
like the most important thing is the human connection, and um, yeah,
(37:22):
all the other stuff doesn't matter, like the tour should
should not have mattered. And I wish I had just
sat my ass on that set and enjoyed the experience
and was there just because I remember sometimes when I
would show up later and waft in in my black
vampire outfits just sit there that you know, like I
(37:44):
remember just like you guys would look at me like
mm hmmmmnet there was a disconnect and then but slowly
you would all I would, I would, you know, be
sitting there and slowly the next thing that we'd be
sitting there singing Andy Monica songs like we did when
we were making the pilot and it felt like, oh,
that feeling that we all had the love that we
(38:06):
had for that's just each other, but what we were doing,
UM was still there. And I think a lot about
and you know, and also I had, UM I've never
been as close to a cast. I've never tried to
be as close to a cast, because I think that
all of our lines like where we friends, was I
your boss? I I was I was Actually the thing
(38:29):
that people also think about shoan Runners is like, you know,
we actually all worked for the same person. We were
all employees of Fox. I was not your boss. I
was an employee, although I was given this sort of
position of power that I really was not prepared for.
But yeah, it was a It was a particularly those
beginning years were really really heavy and overwhelming. But I
(38:52):
have to say I look back on it with a
real great degree of of affection because for every bad moment,
there were like a hundred great moments. And I just
the thing that I remember so vividly was I had
a house account at the Chateau Armant and I cannot
tell you how many nights we as a group shut
that place down. I mean we had a ball. We
(39:16):
had a ball, and I remember even some of the
first award shows we went to as a group. We
won't name them, but I just remember us having a
sense of what is happening, like it was so fun.
It was, it was so fun, and we we had
a ball, and we were just always together. We were
(39:37):
always together, whether it was filming at dinner, we were
together more than we were with our own families. And
and I think you're right, run like, thanks for sharing that.
I feel like in a parallel, parallel universe we were
going through the same thing where we didn't we weren't
prepared for what was happening in our lives, and we
(39:58):
weren't prepared for it, and we loved this show, and
we you know, I I look back with very fond memories.
Now a million good things outweigh the one bad thing
in the press that we see these days. You know,
a million great things that weren't talked about, And I
think that's what we want to do on this show,
is share all of those. But you know, in this
(40:18):
parallel universe, like the show was ours for those first
thirteen twenty episodes or however many we did before the
world kind of took it. And that's that was for
us to make for them in many ways, like it
changed many lives, it saved lives, and and I'm so
grateful for that because it kept us going and those
(40:40):
really hard and seasons of like people are still hanging
on and still with us and still really enjoying this,
so we do it for them. But um early on,
like it was ours and then all the power and
everything was kind of like it became so external, and
that was like an incredibly difficult shift that none of us,
(41:01):
I think had the time or energy to process at
that point. We were so exhausted and we were still working.
You were you started horror story at that point, Like
there were a million things going on that like nobody
got to sit in process until you come to a
point where you lose one friend, you lose two friends,
you lose three friends, you lose crew members, you lose
all these really important people in such a momentous time
(41:24):
in your life that you go back and go, what
was it really about? What was it that made it
so special that gives you that feeling of Like I
remember when we went to the upfronts for the first
time and we watched that trailer that we had made,
and I was bawling and They're like everybody's laughing at me,
but I was like, I love this thing. I get it,
like I got it before I think some people got
(41:46):
in and I was. I just so attached to it
and attached to all of us and this little family
that we had made. So yeah, I think I agree
with you. Like I look at back at that period
and I remember being emotional about every cut, like showing
you guys and sitting in those rooms and crying. And
I think, if you look back at it, it it was
(42:07):
a very interesting group of people because all of us
had something in common. And the thing that when I
look back is we all were kind of nerds, and
we all felt unloved and unseen, not just maybe in
our families but by the business. We all were like
these kind of people that had weird, unique talents that
(42:28):
were unseen and finally we got to show them. And
then against all odds, people loved us after hating us
for so long. At least that's how I felt. And
that's a very emotional thing that we went through because
we were kind of united. We were all marginalized people
and suddenly we became the establishment and the trend setters,
(42:51):
and that also can screw with your ego, and that
was also very interesting and bizarre to me, and um
a lesson learned. But yeah, I just I just, you know,
it's that thing. I always think, like, God, I really
did love it, and if I could, those those two
years I will say, from the making of the Glee
(43:12):
pilot probably to two thousand and eleven were, without questioned,
the happiest years of my life. Without a doubt. I
look back on that time and I think, wow, that's
what I was doing Glee. That's when I met my
better I mean, I've been friends with my better half,
but you know, I started dating him because he was
dating some guy who was like twenty years old. And
he called me up after a long time where I
(43:33):
hadn't spoken to me. He said, can you get me
Glee tickets from the guy? I'm like, you've got to
be kidding, and so he I got. I'm like, okay,
So I got him tickets to the Radio City Glee thing.
And I was, you know, chain smoking at the time,
so I was rail thin, and I was wearing this
Jill sound or coat and I looked good for like
(43:56):
two weeks in my life. And that was the period.
And then he saw remember the skinny mini, and then
he was like, who is what happened here? So that
that's how I started to date David that night and
then we kis married right David's But it's sort of
(44:17):
that was a great period in my life. Of listen,
there were battle royal's but it was fun because you know,
again I get back to it was the first the
first big success, the first moment in the spotlight where
you know, we were all kids, I think, knowing all
you guys who were singing in front of mirrors with
hair brushes, and then you get to be in a
(44:37):
global stage doing something like that, it was a wondrous time.
It was constantly, every single day was like all of
our wildest dreams coming true. I feel like, as easy
as it is now to look back and be like, yeah,
here are things we could have done differently, I also
feel like and that in the beginning, by you putting
yourself out there to be our friend, you know, and
(45:00):
be that close to us, for better or for worse,
it did make us feel safe and protected. Though. It
did allow us to show up every day and to
show our unique abilities and talents and skills that nobody
else cared to see before. And so I do think
because of that, because of the tone you said that, yeah,
even if we hadn't seen you for a while and
(45:21):
you'd come out set, we'd still run over to you
because you felt like a foundational aspect of who we are,
who we are or were in relationship to the show,
and so you allowed us to be all of those things.
You pushed us to be our better selves and get
(45:41):
our talent out there as much as possible. In the
very beginning, yes we're retired. Yeah yeah. And then of
course it was that thing where you know, I also
had I remember like I I was the person that
also had to be the disciplinarian about some of these things,
like you know, laying down the law, which is absolutely
(46:03):
absurd now, like you know what it should have been.
There should have been some person who was just in
charge of schedules and personalities, and it's like, you know,
there was there was no exactly but you know, like
I'll just speak graphically and we can cut it out,
you know, like if you want. But I started off
(46:27):
that job as a writer and a producer, and halfway
through that job, because of the phenomenon that it became
and the things that then happened when you were part
of a phenomenon, and some of them are good, some
of them are bad, you know, I had to deal
with things that are absolutely batshit crazy out of my knowledge.
(46:48):
Like I had no idea about how to handle domestic violence.
I had no idea how to handle addiction. I had
no idea how to handle unwanted pregnancies. I had no
idea how to do any of these things. So I
was in this role of like the boss but also
a friend and actually loving everyone. And then it was
(47:08):
just very, very overwhelming, and um again, it really did
teach me about parenting and what not to do, what
to do and yeah, and I'm just I'm just so
relieved and thrilled that at the end of the day.
And again, I'll go back to the Naya thing, which
was incredibly healing, but I'm glad that we all got
(47:28):
to have these It was like a couple of weeks
to really talk about what Glee did to us and
what Glee did for us, and those are two very
different things. And it was really healing and getting to
because you and I would tell you guys, like, Okay,
you had that feeling, but did you know that when
that was going on, I was doing X X Y Y,
(47:49):
and you guys had no idea because I would always
keep that stuff from you for the most part. But
that was that was interesting to share what I was
going through too, because so many times I think you
guys would think that I was just this sort of
automaton dressed in calmed Garson who would come level but
it wasn't that I was torn up and struggling and
(48:10):
trying to figure it out. I found it interesting when
when we did you the night when Naya I went missing,
you called me Ryan, and I remember thinking, because at
(48:34):
that point I was we were all distraught and you know,
wondering what was happening. And I remember in the sense
that I had anytime I talked to you always talked
about Glee with sort of this I don't know if
it was anger or it wasn't definitely wasn't positivity. It
was sort of like I'm over at everything's annoying, everyone's whatever.
And you called me and I was sort of like, look,
(48:57):
I don't know how it came up, but I was like,
I don't know what impression you have of the show,
but it has brought a lot of us, a lot
of good and a lot of positivity and a lot
of joy. And and then from there you and I
talked every day for I don't know, almost a month,
(49:19):
and very quickly it turned into you know, what do
we all have to lose by not talking to you
directly into each other about the things that brought us together,
and then what sort of took us apart? And it
was very interesting also to like watch your transformation sort
(49:41):
of every phone call of also working through things the
way we were also all working through things, and I
felt like it was very um as and it was
such odd timing but made sense that It's like, of
course Nia is going to just have us talk about everything,
through everything out there as she would. And it was
(50:03):
through grief, like you said, be able to completely sort
of like open up all the wounds from everyone and
just spill it. And you were like, I'll take it.
I will sit there and i will take it because
I want everyone to know that I'm listening and hearing
what they're saying and I'm accepting, you know, their experience,
(50:23):
and I was on the other side of it, and um,
it is interesting now to hear how you've also like
shifted and had this more you know, positive outlook, because
I think it's it's so easy to get way down,
especially externally by all like the ship people say who
weren't involved in it at all, and it's like, no,
we spent years having just incredible, incredible, positive, joyful experiences
(50:49):
and getting to do craziest things like in one weekend
we performed on Oprah and then went to the White
House and hung out at the White House and then
performed at the White House. Did it was like we
would rather you did. I was there, you were there,
We were doing insane things, and there were so many
great things that we And the reason we're always going
to be connected like this and so deeply is because
(51:11):
only we only have each other to relate to end this,
because nobody else went through this, and we all went
through a very specific set of circumstances. And so I
think that's also why we feel things so deeply with
each other. Where the highs are high and the lows
are low, is because like family, it's like, well, I
have no one else to relate to on this, so
like I, I either hate you or I love you,
(51:34):
and I can say I hate you because I love you.
And so it's sort of that high school drama that
you know doesn't ever and unless you face a head
on which you sort of spearheaded, that wasn't That was
an interesting um switch for me at Also other things
(51:54):
started to happen at that time, right, I mean, I
think the thing for me is like that idea of
being a part of a cultural phenomenon and sort of
going so high that once you're so high, you can
only come down, and the feeling coming down is not
good for anybody. It doesn't feel good. And then the
media starts to take, you know, shots at you and
(52:15):
punish you for the thing that they actually rewarded you
for identically six months before so. And then you did
warn us of that, by the way, I distinctly, but
I guess we were super young, but you did walk
us through those things until it happens. It's sort of
unbelievable theoretical. I think the thing that happened for me
(52:36):
was there was a there was a turning point for
me where, um, I was in it. I was in it.
I was and then you know that thing where you're
like the gay kid, who, what do you mean? You're
gonna make my dream horror show and green light that? Yes?
What do you mean? I can go do the normal
heart yes? Like I just was so thinking that I
would never work again that I took the yeses and
(52:58):
then I started to build this business that I've really enjoyed,
and that kind of took me further out to see.
And then I think you guys felt further estrange for
me because physically I wasn't there creatively. Then you know,
we added a writer's room and it became a bigger thing.
And I think the thing that happened for me to
(53:18):
be blunt was, you know, Corey died, and then after
Corey's death and I had to plan a memorial service,
I was like, I don't, I don't know how to
do this anymore. I can't, I don't know what to do. Um.
And it was so painful and dark, and I think
we all felt that. But you know, there was also
(53:39):
a very large crew who had been with us from
the beginning who was very little, yeah, just no turnover.
It was a family, and people wanted to keep working,
and well not everybody, there were a few that didn't,
but UM, I just think that after that, I was
sort of like Elvis has left the building. I think
my spirit had gone out of it. And I was
(54:00):
so devastated by his death, UM that I had to
step away from my own mental health, even though I
didn't call it mental health at the time. So it
did become like this sort of thing where there was
a lot of space between us. But then recently what
has happened is we all, most of us got back
(54:21):
together in a very adult good way and had adult conversations.
You guys are adults now you're not kids, you know,
And sort of that was a shift in all of
your lives. You have partners, you have children, like um,
you process it differently. And then now you know, Glee
is on Hulu, It's on Disney Plus, and every day
(54:44):
there are people who reach out to me about my
eight year old is watching this show. And these young
people have no memory of it being in the media
and a cultural phenomenon. They're just loving the musical experience
of it. So that to me has been sort of
reinvigorating and like, oh, the work lasted and the works
(55:05):
tested the you know. And it's also hilarious to me
some of the stuff that we did in those later
seasons that were so mercilessly attacked by the press. Example,
remember when we did those scenes with Sue as Jigsaw
and and like the Puppet and Jane had the hurt Rocker.
(55:27):
I believe that there were there were many columns written
about that I should be killed for those scenes, but
now they are among the most beloved watched streamed like,
so it's interesting, like everything comes still wrong, You're still
wrong for what the Fox is Kevin and Style. Okay,
(55:49):
let's talk about these two songs, which I have been
a gang of style and what the Fox says. I
would like you to put yourself in my little I
understand why you did it? Understand Okay, twenty two episodes
a year to fill. Right, So when you're doing it
and you're like, well, what's that. That's what's at the
top of the charts, like, um, yeah, And if you
(56:14):
look at that show, you can also look at like
what was popular and what was classic, like it was
a weird mixture. And yes, I will say Gangham style
not the best moment, but there was a reason why
it was only because it was so incredibly popular. And
Glee in some regards, was like the jukebox musical of
its day, the top of the pops. You could tune
(56:35):
in to see what was totally popular. But I don't know,
is that is that your least favorite number? Nay. I
felt like I was the last one to break out
of the cast, the last and that was my breaking
point because I think I think it's because I don't
(57:00):
I don't know, but there was something about having puppets
and doing that and doing that number or I it
was just like what fever? Dream? What has happened? Dream?
And there's an actual shot of me looking into the
camera where I'm just like, I don't know. I think
(57:21):
it was just because like, okay, am I allowed to break?
Now everyone else has broken. It took a very long
time for you. And this is my reaction. But I
will say, do you remember, like, speaking of all the
current music, people used to send you their music, like
I remember Gaga sent you Born Born this Way album
because Brad and you you guys walked back onto set
(57:42):
and Brad was like, oh, yeah, we just Lady Gaga's
people brought us over their music. Brad Falchuk the straightest
man on earth talking about listening to Lady Gaga and
I was like, oh my god, how was it like?
And he was like, oh yeah, there's probably some hits
on there. I'm like, where's Ryan? And so I knew
exactly what the hits with ye like that was? That was?
(58:04):
That was? You know, that was That was a very
interesting period and again McCartney sent his music over. UM.
I learned a lot from that period. Um. That was
a weird period where when Glee became popular that we
could reach out to any artist in the world, and
they would pretty much say yes except a few yeah.
(58:28):
But I also learned something like that from that, like
you know that whole Kings of Leon thing when when
that was the first rejection, I think, and I took
it personally and I gave an interview with a lot
of you briss in a really big head and and
said really stupid things, And looking back on it, I
feel like they were right, like you as an artist
should be allowed to, you know, do with your music
(58:51):
what you will. And I should never have said anything.
I that was just the I learned a lot of
life lessons and I was such a jerk in that interview.
I don't know why I said some stupid thing about
depriving America's children of Kings of Leam. I don't remember that,
but it was. It was not good. Don't remember then
they came out because I was devastated. I love you.
(59:14):
I love that we were sitting in the same row
as them at the Grammys. I was like, oh, I
was like, this is embarrassing. I love you. I had
I had that moment with Dave Grohl, who I really
love as an artist, and he spoke out against that interview.
I don't know if you recall saying, who is this
(59:35):
guy saying something? And I was going to some another
awful award show moment and he was in front of
me and turned around and goes, oh, hi hi, He goes,
It's all good. He was such a lovely guy. And
he was such a lovely guy. But again, things that
you learned, Like I never had any media training. I
(59:56):
was just so thrilled to literally have Taylor Swift and
Beyonce an Adele remember Adele Adele would talk about her
love of Glee and her love of Amber and just
like that was that was amazing, Like to be a
part of those that experience with that level of artists,
To have Stevie Nicks show up on set and send flowers,
(01:00:20):
remember that huge flower arrangement she sent, that craft room
we had, she gave, she talked to us in the
Glee in the classroom, and she was It was just
like that really great period where as a fan, you
could say, or I could say, like I wanted to
do songs and pay tribute to people that I loved,
(01:00:43):
like Barbara Streisan. You know, I got to meet Barbara
because of Glee and become friends with her. So it
was like past and present, but it was it was.
It was that show in the in the in the
moment in time, was UM an indisputable force in terms
of I was would say, you know, showcasing the love
of music, and to me, that's what it really was about.
(01:01:05):
It was about I love music. Music is something that
brings people together. It's a great equalizer. I, you know,
had the lead in every musical in high school. One
of my great tragedies is that I did not become
a pop music singer. What I really wanted to be
was a pop music singer and or the editor in
chief of Vogue, and I could not do either of them,
(01:01:25):
which is why I'm doing what I'm doing. So we know,
you can run a little bit. I can't actually, and
by run we mean I only I only could do
one thing. But it was just fun and UM that's
the that's the joy of that show is UM. I
(01:01:51):
think the love of music that even if you watch it,
I think you can tell now because I went back
in preparation for this and watch some of the old
episodes and you can tell, like, oh, they really did
love what they were doing and they really did have
a great appreciation and admiration for these artists, and we
were interpreting them in different ways and mashing things up,
and it was all like love letters to me, except
(01:02:15):
Gangham style not a love letter. Three am, what are
we going to do in here? But I still love
that song I do. I'm sorry, I love it selfishly.
I mean that K pop episode. I remember Brad turning
to me. He's like, do you I heard you like
K pop? I was like, I love K pop. He's like,
what can we put in the background of the scene.
I'm like, I'll send you a whole list and I
(01:02:36):
got my favorite K pop artists? You did? Yes, we're
like rehearsing to to Big Bang, which was my favorite
group at the time. But what season was this? What
was this? No? God three or four must have been
later um in the spirit of like artists and all
these amazing people. What about the guest stars and and
talk about the casting of the pilot as well, like
(01:02:58):
were you pitched big name like and what made you
decide to go with all of us little unknown? You know, well,
that was a that was a wondrous, amazing um casting
session that I've really only had once since, and that
was with the cast of Pose. It was a very
(01:03:19):
similar idea, which was, let's let's make stars. Let's there's
so much talent out there, let's let's find people. When
we were writing the the pilot, I've never really talked
about this. That pilot was written for Justin Timber, Mr
(01:03:40):
Shoe was written for Justice. Wait a second, hold up,
this is actually brand new information. I think we need
to pause and we'll we will talk about this next time.
So come back next week to hear the second part
of our almost three hour conversation with Ryan Murphy, because
(01:04:00):
you don't want to miss it. It's just getting started.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.