Big Feelings & Burnout

Jen talks to Liz Fosslien co-author and illustrator of the national best-seller Big Feelings and the Wall Street Journal best-seller No Hard Feelings and an expert on how to make work better.

Jen and Liz really drill down into what it means to "sit with uncertainty" and how to notice the early signs of Burnout.

For more info on Liz Fosslien go here: https://www.fosslien.com

For more information on Jen Kirkman, the host of Anxiety Bites, please go here: https://jenkirkman.bio.link

and to get the takeaways for this episode please visit: http://www.jenkirkman.com/anxietybitespodcast

To send an email to the show write to anxietybitesweekly at gmail dot com

Follow Jen on Twitter @jenkirkman or Instagram @jenkirkman

Anxiety Bites is distributed by the iHeartPodcast Network and co-produced by Dylan Fagan and JJ Posway.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I
am your host, Jen Kirkman. Today my guest is Liz Fosslin.
She is the co author of the national bestseller Big Feelings,
and we will talk about a few concepts from that

(00:31):
book in today's interview. I appreciate the title Big Feelings
because this book is about anxiety, the anxiety of uncertainty,
going into anxious fixing instead of sitting figuring out our
feelings in any given moment. It's the book is a

(00:54):
lot about burnout work burnout, which is obviously a certain
kind of anxiety as well. But I appreciate that the
overall tone is thinking about it in terms of feelings, right,
because what's underneath a lot of anxiety is feelings. You know,
we are a perfect mix. If you've learned anything from

(01:16):
last week's episode, Joseph Lead neuroscientists that yes, we are
a batch of chemicals and memories and reactions, but we
have emotions and we have human feelings, and everybody may
experience the same symptoms of anxiety, sweaty palms, rapid heartbeat,

(01:38):
panic attacks, whatnot. There's this universal symptoms of anxiety and panic.
But we are each unique creatures with our specific feelings
in any given moment, and a lot of times are
feelings inform how severe our anxiety is around a certain situation,
and a lot of times it's important to get under

(02:02):
the hood and figure out what we're really feeling. You know,
it's incredible that we have such simple and easy solutions
to lower our heart rate and to pass through panic.
As doctor clear Weeks once said, but let's not discount
that we are humans with feelings, and if we can

(02:25):
look at our feelings, we can decrease our anxiety, and
we can also just feel better. I mean, forget the
pressure of have I decreased my anxiety? We can just
understand ourselves better, which helps us make decisions, which helps
us become who we are looking to become. And although
the book Big Feelings covers many topics and does so

(02:46):
really expertly, I highly recommend this book. I wanted to
really zero in on one or two chapters, and the
ones that we talked about are uncertain t and how
do we actually practice sitting with our uncertainty? You know
what does that mean? Because every episode. I mean, in

(03:08):
the first episode of this podcast, Dr jud Brewer said
the only thing that's certain in life is that there
is uncertainty. And that's true, and that's great and that's smart.
But I had other things to talk to him about,
so we didn't drill down into it, and now is
the time to answer, Okay, I get it. I'm willing
to sit with uncertainty. I accept that life is uncertain.
I know I can't control a lot of life. But

(03:30):
what do you mean sit with the uncertainty? Am I
supposed to literally sit on my bed or something? And yeah,
I mean, that is one thing you can do, but
there's more to it. It's just about stopping for a
minute and asking yourself some questions so you can figure
out what's going on underneath in that moment. And it

(03:51):
doesn't have to be this deep dive into your childhood
and you don't have to be a therapist to do it,
and you don't need a therapist to do that with
you in the moment. It's it's a very intimate solo
exercise that you can do. And if you don't like uncertainty,
even though you accept it and you are very much
aware that there's no getting up, there's no getting through

(04:14):
life without it being full of uncertainty. There's some really
interesting ways to look at it, because the science and
the data back up that people hate uncertainty so much
that they would rather know for sure that something bad
is going to happen tomorrow. If presented with the option,
something bad can happen tomorrow and you can know about it.

(04:36):
Or I could tell you that you have a fifty
percent chance of something bad happening tomorrow, which means you
also have a fifty percent chance of nothing bad happening tomorrow,
So you can have that knowing that something bad or
nothing bad or yes, definitely something bad. I'll tell you
what it is and when. Most people would choose yeah,

(04:57):
just yeah, give me this something bad and tell me
when and what instead of taking the risk and then
maybe nothing that will happen. And within the uncertainty, there's
also not just the uncertainty of if I walk outside,
will a piano fall on my head? But when we
do make a plan, I mean we obviously have to

(05:18):
make a plan at times. You know, we have to
schedule things. If you have a job, you have to
create whatever it is you create at your job, you
have to raise a child. Whatever you're doing, there has
to be intention and planning behind it, but then there
has to be accounting for mistakes and uncertainty and just
things going wrong. And in the book, Liz talks about

(05:43):
how even scientists that NASA say that they make plans,
but they think of agendas as plans from which we deviate.
So when you make a plan, learning to be flexible,
like included in that plan is the flexibility of if
it deviates from your plan, And that is how to

(06:03):
set yourself up for having less anxiety when something deviates
because you took the uncertainty out of it. You were
certain that there was uncertainty in your plan. And then
we talk about work burnout, something very near and dear
to my heart, and Liz explains that you cannot cure
work burnout with a you know, a weekend away and

(06:24):
then go right back into what's burning you out. It
really takes kind of sitting and assessing what you want
out of life and are you the person that you
aspire to be in your head or are you living
your values? If you're saying, you know, money is not
important to me, I don't want to chase something because
I don't really care about my legacy or I don't

(06:46):
care about being the most productive worker and winning the
award or for best attendance or whatever. You know, then
are you living according to that? Are you saying I'm
someone who wants to spend more time with family and
friends and get it out in nature more, or sleep more,
read more, or just have more free time? Are you

(07:07):
actually doing that? And and how much of that is
again within your control? So, and with burnout, it's something
that most people don't know they are experiencing until they
hit that wall to where you know, you might end
up sick in the hospital. You might end up just

(07:29):
saying I can't do this anymore, you know, leaving a job.
Who knows how burnout could affect you, but most people
don't address it until it's like at the breaking point.
And there are signs of burnout along the way that
seem kind of normal, like they don't seem like burnout signs.
One of them is called revenge bedtime procrastination, which is

(07:53):
when you go to bed and you want to sleep
and you love sleeping and you can sleep, you don't
have insomnia, but you have felt so just like you
have no control over your schedule. Everyone wants something from
you. You You didn't. You didn't get a minute to yourself
except maybe when you went to Pete. You didn't get
a minute to yourself that day, And damn it, you're

(08:14):
gonna get that time. Now. You're gonna go to bed
and you're gonna scroll your phone and look at the
internet or play a game or whatever, even though you
desperately need sleep, and this will cut into your sleep,
which will set you up for being exhausted the next day.
Hence you're on the road to burn out. But it
is the only way you can think to get time

(08:36):
for yourself. Even if, again, if you were to schedule
and plan your life and dream big, you wouldn't say
the best way I can spend time with myself is
playing a game on my phone two in the morning,
you know. So it's things like that that have become
so normalized that are actually signs of burnout. So we
talked about that as well. So let's just get into
it so you can actually here the genius of my guest,

(08:58):
Liz fosse Len, who ill tell you a little bit
about right now. Liz is the co author and illustrator
of the national bestseller Big Feelings, which again she co
authored with Molly west Duffy. Liz is an expert on
how to make work better. She's the head of Content
and Communications at WHUMO. She helps teams and leaders develop
the skills and habits that allow them to unlock their

(09:20):
full potential. She regularly leads interactive, scientifically backed workshops about
how to build resilience, help remote workers avoid burnout, and
effectively harness emotion as a leader. And again, you can
find more information about Liz in the show notes. And
I hope that you enjoy this conversation. I'm going to

(09:46):
be um awkwardly reading to you from your book that
you wrote with Molly west Duffy, Big Feelings, How to
Be Okay when Things are not Okay. And I wanted
to start with one of the chapters in your book,
which is Uncertainty. And I you know, obviously uncertainty has
come up on this podcast before and one of my guests,

(10:08):
I think my first guest, Dr Judge Brewer, said the
only thing we can be certain of is that there
is uncertainty. But something about reading this in your book
made me realize we need to go over this again,
because as you wrote, UM, myths about uncertainty, you say
myth number one, certainty is attainable. And so I think,

(10:29):
even though people have heard a million times that the
only thing certain about life is that it's uncertain, I
still do think there's something in our heads that goes well. No,
I think we can I think we can get a
lot of certainty. I think we can try to get
some more. And so can you give you had said that, um,
Behavioral scientists have shown that we're overly optimistic about the

(10:51):
things we want to happen, but we tend to overlook
longer term shifts, and we overemphasize the importance of new
information that fits into our existing beliefs. So that's kind
of a mouthful. Can you kind of give me an
example and game that out for me? What what that is? What?
What does our brain actually do to think we have certainty? Yeah,

(11:11):
so there's additional research, I mean, all kinds of studies
that show that humans hate uncertainty, Like we would rather
know for sure that something bad is going to happen
tomorrow then have a fifty chance of that's something bad happening,
because in the former we can plan for it, and
it just it feels like we still have some semblance
of control. So because we have this deep aversion to uncertainty,

(11:36):
our brains play all kinds of tricks on us to
make us feel like we can predict the future. We're
somehow different than everybody else on the planet. And so
one is like if you, let's say you decide you
want to go on an international trip and the hotel
you were kind of looking at suddenly has a sale
on hotel rooms, You're going to see that It's like,

(11:57):
this is the sign. This is like I should go
on this. This is confirmation by us essentially, But if
the flight tickets go up, you're just not going to
read that heavily into that. Um. And so that's an
example M again just try like picking certain information to
support what we kind of already want to happen or
want to believe about the future. UM. You know. That's

(12:19):
also I see this a lot recently with economic uncertainty,
where people if they really believe, let's say the housing
market is going to go down and I think no
one quite knows it's going to happen, yet, they'll see
like one house on the market that's been on the
market longer than normal and take that as like, this
is the indicator that I'm right, And then if a

(12:40):
house cells really quickly, they'll be like if that's that's
just a blip. Um. So there's lots of examples of this,
but very common bias that we're susceptible too. And so
the danger in this because I know someone could say, well,
that's great, you've got a great attitude. You know, the
flights are going down, and so you your dream trip,

(13:01):
and you don't you don't notice the negative that the
hotels are are going up or not on sale. I
could see someone saying that life, what's wrong with that?
You're seeing the positive? But I think the bigger picture
is probably that if something doesn't work out right, there's
like this extra disappointment because you were approaching it from

(13:21):
a place of certainty and like maybe mild vagueness in
some ways. Is that with the dangerous Is that like
then that could lead to I don't know whatever, beating
yourself up or anxiety or something. Yeah. Absolutely, when we
overestimate how much control we have over the future, or
have too high expectations, you're absolutely right. Then when something

(13:41):
doesn't work out we kind of put it on ourselves.
We beat ourselves up for it. We think it's our
faults somehow. Um. And it's also it prevents us from
making rational decisions. Right if you write, if the flights
go up too much, maybe you shouldn't take the trip
right now, like there's a lot of stuff that. Um.
You know, it prevents us also from just being flexible

(14:03):
as things change, right, And yeah, I we remember when
I had a fear of flying, I would look for
any little sign I could, depending on what I was
looking for that day. Sometimes I wanted confirmation that I
should not take this play because it was dangerous. Sometimes
I wanted reassurance that it would be okay. But I
could read into anything. And it's like if I looked

(14:26):
at a flight one day and it went up the
next day, instead of learning, oh, well, you looked on
on Monday and that's when flight prices go up. You know,
I would think, oh my god, I can't afford this,
so I'm not going to go, and I just saved
my life, you know. I would look at it that way,
and it's like none of that is happening. And at
the very least, even though I guess no harm is

(14:47):
coming to me. By doing that, I'm really training my
brain to believe every thought I have. Totally. It's funny
as you bring that up. I also sometimes get nervous
about flying, and it reminds me when Molly and I
were interviewing people as we were writing this book about uncertainty,
many people said that what helped them move forward was

(15:08):
asking themselves like, what's the worst thing that could happen?
And then they would say, you know, the worst thing
wasn't actually that bad, and then it it just helped
me feel more calm. That has never worked for me
because I'm a catastrophizer, So for me, the worst thing
that could happen is like catastrophically bad. It's not just
like a little thing. It's like I will come up

(15:30):
with a dark, dark scenario that is terrifying, and I
will not move forward. So what I've found helpful is
also to ask like, what is the likelihood of this
worst case scenario? And usually it's infinitesimally small. Um. So
I just for anyone out there who has gotten the
advice what's the worst that could happen? It might not

(15:50):
work for you. And if you do find yourself obsessing
over a horrible worst case scenario. You can pull it
back a little bit by saying, how, like, what is
the actual probability that this is going to happen? It's
probably far and away not the most likely outcome. That's
really smart advice. And yeah, because when someone would say
that to me, what's the worst that could happen? I'm thinking,

(16:13):
do you think I'm an amateur at this? I've already
gained out the worst that could happen. That's why I'm
nervous about booking this flight or you know, taking this
road trip. I mean, you can't out catastrophize a catastrophizer,
and that doesn't always help. I mean, you know, I've
done exercises where I do just um let myself actually

(16:34):
really feel with that all might feel like and it
does bring it around too well. I ultimately have no control.
But I think that the example you gave is the
likelihood is a great example of if the other one
doesn't work for people. And I think this brings me
to your other myth that you say about uncertainty is
that anxiety accurately reflects risk. So is that sort of

(16:56):
what you're talking about, that there's a mismatch between house
stressed we feel about something and the likelihood that will happen. Yes, exactly,
so when we it's normal to feel anxiety in the
face of uncertainty. But it's really easy for us to
lean into that and and I believe that it's our
intuition rather than just like a bunch of scrambled noise um.

(17:19):
And that's it's hard to figure out, you know, what
is actually my gut instinct, what is just my anxiety speaking.
But one research study that I found really fascinating was
there were researchers. They split people randomly into two groups,
and then one group had a chance of getting harmless
but painful electric shock, and the other group had a

(17:42):
fifty percent chance. And then the researchers said to each group, like,
how much are you willing to pay not to get
this shock? And so you would think that the group
that had a lower percentage chance would pay less, because
that just sort of rational. We are not rational creatures.
So the two groups paid exactly the same, and so
again goes to show them how we per how afraid

(18:04):
we feel like we're actually more anxious often when things
are uncertain than when they're sure. And so even it
could be that actually, like the fact that you're so
nervous about what might happen tomorrow just means that there's
a small chance something bad will happen. But that's so
stressful that that's generating more anxiety in you than knowing
like tomorrow I'm going to have this like dentist appointment

(18:26):
that I'm really dreading. You might dread it, but you
might not be as anxious. Um So I think just
important to keep that in mind and not just let
yourself like lean into this anxiety and see it as
this means for sure that something terrible is going to happen.
But I think that is tough for anxious people to

(18:48):
be told, you know, go with your gut feeling. It's like,
I don't know my gut. I've never had an organic
gut feeling. I've only had these a weird paranoid And
even people can do it in the positive sense, you know.
You see it all the time when people eat someone
they like and as having a really good feeling about
this person and then it ends up like this a
horrible relationship or doesn't work out. They goes to the
person or whatever. But it's like Feelings aren't facts, and

(19:13):
it's okay to have them, but I feel like it's
all about just keeping them in their place, not believing
them and going down that rabbit hole. Yeah, I love,
feelings aren't facts. I think it really is about sitting
with it, even though it's so uncomfortable. Like I think
often we just leap to the assumption that what we're

(19:34):
feeling is a fact, because it's actually more uncomfortable to
sit with it and try to understand it and just
breathe through it than to be like, Okay, I feel this,
I'm going to take action. Like that feels better in
the moment because we can run from the emotion when
actually what's most productive is for us to just have
that really uncomfortable five minutes that actually, long term is

(19:56):
better for us because we've better understand what's going on
within ourselves. Yeah, our brains really want to do the opposite,
because if something if I'm having a terrible feeling about
something and it's not a fact, technically, that's amazing. I'm
so glad, you know, um in general that I'm not
right about this thing. But in the moment, even if
it's something terrible, I think is going to happen. I

(20:16):
can't give up being right about it because I think
I'm protecting myself. And it wasn't until I learned really
how to feel feeling. And again I always thought I
was someone who did feel feelings. I can't cry easily.
I feel all the normal feelings that people feel at
the right times at funerals and weddings and holidays. But
when I'm anxious, I have to realize there's a feeling

(20:39):
underneath there, and if I can sit with it right,
I always want to take action get rid of the
anxiety or get rid of the thing that I think
is causing the anxiety. And often there's that feeling underneath
that's very human, and it's not one of the fun
feelings that you feel at a wedding or appropriate feeling
at funeral. It's like, I don't know, self doubt, own

(21:00):
or shame or something you know, And it's really hard
to want to sit with it, even though I guess
my point is it's really hard to want to sit
with it even though it really takes it takes a
lot less time to sit with it, right. Yeah, So
I used to do. I was very similar. I would

(21:22):
just like run from feelings because it felt productive. It
felt like, oh, and I can do it all. This
is a motivational tool or whatever. Um, and so I
would do something psychologists called anxious fixing, which you're sort
of describing, which is you feel a lot of anxiety,
and so you just start doing stuff. You vacuum the floor,
you wash the dishes, you get through your inbox, you

(21:44):
answer d ms on Twitter, whatever it might be, and
so you it feels good in the moment to cross
things off your to do list, and it kind of
distracts you from your anxiety. But usually at the end
of the day, what's happened is that you haven't addressed
the root causes of what's making you anxious. You have
and sat with that emotion, and so now not only
are you exhausted because you've been running around in a frenzy,

(22:06):
but you also haven't made that anxiety go away. So
it's sort of worse at the end of the day.
Even though while you're frantically trying to get to in
box zero, it feels like you have control and everything's good. Um.
So you know it's the next time you feel this urge.
I say this to myself all the time. Like, yeah,
we don't have to empty the dishwasher. We need to

(22:27):
sit and understand where the anxiety has come from from.
That's long term what's better for you. It's so hard,
and I definitely am an anxious fixer. And I love
it to do list and I love to see in
box go to zero. I love everything crossed off. But
I know when I'm doing it in a way that like,
none of this needs to be done today. And it's

(22:49):
not just oh but I'm super productive. Why not? It's
like something's under there. And if I managed to get
all the two dues done by the time it's time
to go to bed, I have that feeling. It's like
an emotional like I ate too much ice cream feeling.
I don't feel right. I might not feel anxious, like
my palms are sweaty, but I just feel bad, just

(23:10):
the most descriptive I can think of. And it feels like, oh,
maybe I should have meditated, or maybe I should have
just journaled or sat there and been like what is
this feeling? Sometimes it's really nothing and it's like what
is this feeling? I don't know. I just feel crappy today,
all right, you know. And sometimes it's a bigger thing,
which is like, I'm afraid to do this projects what
if I fail? And then you know, and I really

(23:32):
when I was reading the book and I saw the
anxious fixing, I was like, oh, yeah, I do that,
and I was like, I'm not willing to stop doing
Yeah for me too. And it's you know, it's it's
not the it's not the worst, right, there's lots of
far worse coping mechanisms um And I think even just
getting to the point where you could be aware of
it can be helpful because it's like, Okay, maybe I

(23:53):
do need to get to inbox zero and I'm going
to use this anxiety to fuel that, But then I
really do need to come to it and explore it more.
I think it's easier for me to do because I
live alone, But in the times when I didn't live alone,
if I lived at the partner, had a roommate or whatever,
it's very Actually, that kind of energy is very off

(24:14):
putting to other people. You know, It's like they can
feel what you're doing and it can get a little
hectic and like you kind of end up ignoring the
people in your life. So I feel like I can
get away with it right now because I'm I'm living
alone and I don't have to answer to anybody. But
when I would anxious fix with other people, like directly
living with me, it really was a problem. And I

(24:36):
didn't see it back then. I thought like, what, I'm
getting things done and I think they could tell, but
you don't have any bandwidth for me or for anything else.
And so, you know, I feel like it's something that
I don't know it can really affect everyone else in
our lives. Yeah, that resonates a lot. I think I
even had the This was before I did all this

(24:57):
research and when I was much more emotionally re asked.
I even had the reaction of like, look at me,
I'm so productive, Get on my level. What are you
doing right? Why is everyone nailing it like this? Yeah,
like oh my god, my my boyfriends are lazy or
my friends are so late. Yeah, totally, it's like, okay,
you need to tell so we'll be right back. So

(25:27):
when you talked about the anxious fixing, you know, we
always say okay, sit with uncertainty, but like someone listening
is going to be like, yeah, I keep hearing that,
but what the hell do you mean? Do you mean,
I literally sit on my bed and just sit there, like,
can you give me some um examples of how to

(25:48):
if you catch yourself anxious fixing and you go, Okay,
I'm gonna explore what's really going on, Like what can people?
I know this sounds kind of productive, but do or
not do? Yeah, so it might if some of it
is being on your bed literally sitting with it. But
then the next step it's not. It's not just sitting
down and be like I'm anxious and then moving on.
It's really starting to turn your anxiety into fears. So

(26:11):
anxiety is this sort of instinctually nebulous, bad feeling we
have in the face of uncertainty, and a fear is
tied to something specific. So fears are actually more useful
in a way because they are again indicative of what
we're actually afraid of happening, and therefore we can take
action about it. So let's say I have a blood phobia,

(26:35):
like I hate getting my blood drawn. Um, I've actually
been in like cognitive behavioral therapy for it, Like it's
a very big deal for me, and so what's helped
me is the day before I always have just like
all this frantic energy, and so it's to sit down
and say, like, what are the specific scenarios that I'm
afraid of, And in that case, it's like kind of

(26:56):
just envisioning. Okay, I'm afraid of past thing out. I'm
just afraid of, like that moment of walking into the hospital,
I'm afraid of, you know, I'm going to stop there
in case other people have the same book beyond just
like I think it's just but it does help me
feel a little more in control because it's it's like, Okay,

(27:17):
I can do that. I've done this before, and in
that case it is like, Okay, if I pass out,
it's gonna be terrible. It's not fun, but it's also
not the end of the world. It has happened to
be before I survived, Like they know how to handle
it there Um and that it's again it's turning it
into specifics and then starting to think through what you're

(27:38):
going to do in those different scenarios how likely they are,
and that usually helps me relax. Um. The other thing
I'll say is it is really important to draw a
boundary when you're doing this around what's within your control
and what's not. So for example, if I said I'm
afraid if as I'm walking to the hospital that I'll

(27:59):
get hit by a car. I can look around, you know,
but like basically it's just like I'm not even gonna
worry about this, and so I'm going to put this
into this like beyond category of things that are beyond
my control versus within is taking some deep breaths, you know,
reminding myself I've done this before. Um So it's sitting

(28:20):
with it, whatever that might look like for you, turning
it into specific fears, and then thinking through like which
of these fears can I do something about and which
are kind of just not even really worth my attention
right now. Yeah, you see in the book it's separate
the withins from the beyonds, And I want to get
into that because I was really excited about that. It
was something I hadn't heard before. But I want to

(28:41):
go back a little bit to the fears. I like
the notion of if you're catching yourself doing anxious fixing,
you kind of need to get in touch with what's
really going on. I like the notion of thinking about
sitting wherever you're going to sit and asking, you know,
what I'm afraid of right now? Because I feel like
it's a little less psychobabble, a little less deep feelings,

(29:05):
because some people for for them, they there's a whole
bunch of symptoms of different anxiety disorders where people really
do have trouble naming and feeling feeling of feeling that
can be overwhelming, or sometimes we go too deep, Oh
my god, did I have trauma that I don't remember?
And like we're so worried at something big, And so
if it is as simple as can I start with,
is there a fear going on? Then it's like, oh, yeah,

(29:27):
I have to get my blood drawn tomorrow, or I'm
procrastinating on a project. And then you can just take
it from there instead of going, I don't know what
it is, and I maybe I need like seven therapisiness.
And and then what I like from there is you're
not asking someone to think of the worst case. You're
asking someone to just think of what you're afraid of,

(29:48):
which often isn't the worst case. It's just I don't
like the sensation of the needle, or I don't like
speaking in front of people or whatever. And I think
even just knowing that TA makes that urge. We have
to cover it up. So, in other words, let's say
someone has your fear of blood stuff, they're anxious fixing

(30:11):
their vacuuming there, whatever, And if they sit and take
a minute, label the fear, recognize it, and just make
a little plan for themselves for the next day, maybe
it takes away that urge to cover up the feelings.
And if they weren't anxious fixing, and they hadn't covered
up the feelings, like maybe they would do something else,
like have a few glasses of wine. Now they're hungover

(30:34):
and dehydrated, it's going to make the blood work even worse.
It's hard to drop blood when you're so they're just
it just seems like it's a good stopper for doing
kind of maladaptive things that aren't going to help. And
so for some people it could be anxious fixing. For
other people it could be like getting drunk, you know,
or I don't know, they buy a pack of cigarettes,

(30:55):
or they pick a fight with someone like it could
just be things that make more drama. And I feel
like at the very least, like stopping and identifying a
fear or something, at the very least, even if it
doesn't stop your fear, it like stops you from taking
actions that aren't that helpful, which then will create more drama,
which then makes you more anxious. Yeah, exactly. And something

(31:19):
you alluded to that I want to make explicit to
is it doesn't get rid of it completely, but it
makes it far less likely that we judge ourselves. So
in the case where it's like I have so much
anxiety I need seven therapists, I think that's often where
we layer on I'm this anxious, anxiety riddled person, who
could ever love me? There's so much wrong with me?

(31:39):
How have I not gotten over this? Versus if it's
I'm afraid of getting my blood drawn. Yeah, maybe there's
still some self judgment there, but basically like that seems reasonable, um,
and it's it's a lot. I think we do this
so often when we have a stigmatized emotion like anxiety,
like the like anger, where instead of just sitting with

(32:03):
it and exploring it, we immediately jump to action, or
we jump to I'm a horrible person for having this
emotion in the first place, and then we jumped to
really destructive action. Sometimes, truly, the best advice is just
breathe through it, just and if it's not if you
can't do ninety seconds, do five and then do five again,

(32:23):
and then do five again. And I think actually going
through I've heard this from I live in San Francisco,
so I have a lot of friends who have done
like silent meditation treats and all that jazz um, And
what a lot of them say is you can build
the muscle of just living through something really uncomfortable, and
once you've done it a couple of times, it actually

(32:45):
really helps you deal with those bigger emotions, sometimes even
painful emotions of just like this too will pass, even
if all I do is sit here, like I will
get to a better place. And you talked about adopting
them intra of I am a person who is learning
blank instead of that, I can't believe I still have this.

(33:07):
I can't you know, blah blah blah, blah blah blah.
And I think that's a great I'm really into any
kind of mantra or positive affirmation that isn't bullshit, you know,
like I'm going to have this, which is adding more
pressure on the person, but it's just true. You know,
I am a person who is learning how to feel

(33:27):
my feelings more or get more comfortable whatever. I don't know,
whatever it is, I just think that that's really a
powerful thing. Yeah, it's been really helpful for me. I Yeah.
I remember I lost my father in law to cancer
about a year ago, and I could even at that

(33:48):
time since in myself a couple of weeks later that
I was like, I should just be feeling better. I should.
I had all these I should and instead of said like,
I'm just learning to live of with the loss of
someone that was a huge part of my life and
that I've had a lot of excited hopes for in
the future. Um, And that just allowed me to give

(34:09):
myself some more grace. And that's something Molly and I
say over and over in the book is I think
so much self help centers around we'll fix you. Do this,
you won't feel anxiety again. And that's a completely unrealistic expectation.
It's more about recovery and progress. Like I it's actually

(34:30):
comforting to me to be like, I will never not
be anxious. That's kind of I'm wired. But it's like
that's fine. I don't have to listen to it as much.
I'm learning to live with it. I've made a lot
of progress and that should be celebrated, and it again,
it's set some more reasonable expectation than why haven't I

(34:50):
gotten rid of this? Well, you might never and that's
also totally fine. Like some days you might just wake
up and you're sad for no reason. That's also okay.
I have that too, um, but kind of accepting that
and be like, I'm just a person who needs to
learn how to live with a sad day once in
a while. It's just I'm just like, okay, so I'm
eating ice cream and watching Netflix, going for a walk

(35:13):
tomorrow will be better. And that's such a healthier response.
And as you say in the book, you know you
don't need all of the answers right now, and that
was something that once I came to that, that's very
comforting to me too, because if I'm sitting there thinking
I need answers right now, then that's going to lead
to action. And you know, I've always been surprised when
I sit and I don't know the answers to things,

(35:35):
whether it's big life questions with you, that's usually what
I don't know the answers to is is um, whatever
answer I think I get, I get it when I
need it. And it makes sense to me then, and
if I get the answer too soon, it's probably the
wrong answer. I don't know. There was just something. It's
it's in that same vein right of just acceptance. I
guess it is really the big one word description of

(35:57):
of all of that. Yeah, it's all. So what came
up for me as you were speaking was I feel
like so often people, my parents, people often ask like, well,
what you know, what's what's your long term goal? Where
do you want to be in five years? Where do
you want to be in ten years? And that's putting
all this weight on us to have answers to some

(36:18):
of these bigger questions. And so I've started to look
back five ten years ago, and I would never have
predicted where I am now, you know, like there's so
much about it that was unforeseen that like, I don't
even know what my plan was five years ago, but
it probably wasn't what I'm doing now. And I feel
pretty good with what I'm doing now. So I've started

(36:40):
to push back against it and be like, I don't
have a five year plan. I have something. I know
what my values are, I know what I enjoy doing.
I have a rough idea of where I want would
be in a year, but I don't care about the
five year plan. The world is going to change so much.
I'm not going to answer that question. I'd love to
hear more about that, because I know, you know, when

(37:03):
people hear ritual it sounds like, oh God, like I
don't have any more time, I can't add another thing
to my schedule, like it sounds like, especially with an
anxious brain reading a book, going, I can't do that.
You know, it's like, what do you mean, now, I've
got to meditate for an hour every morning? And it's
like we probably are already doing rituals that we don't
even think of as as rituals, Like, are there examples

(37:25):
of of what a ritual is that helps reduce our
stress levels? Yeah? So yeah, so research shows that rituals
are really helpful also even if you don't believe in them.
So they forced people who are like I am very
skeptical of this to do the same thing every day
at the same time, and it still made them feel
better and they started to look forward to it. So, yeah,

(37:47):
exactly what you said. It's not adding more expectations to yourself.
It's not now you have to start running five miles
every morning. It can be I'm just gonna have a
cup of coffee when I wake up, and I'm wake
up at very different times, but just like making myself
this cup of coffee as the ritual. Um. It can
be something around taking your makeup off, getting into bed,

(38:10):
reading a book like actually very soothing short things. Um,
even just getting up from your desk and having lunch somewhere. Personally,
I've had the same breakfast for probably seven years, and
I'm a little bit of a maniac around it. So
I like, probably too rigid about it, but for me,
it's just helpful. It's very easy to put together. It

(38:32):
doesn't require a lot of cooking. I wake up at
different times on the weekend and during the week and
when I travel. It's just it's this grounding thing of
even when everything else is up in the air, this
is this small routine that always I look forward to
that kind of helps me recenter. Um. So I would
just encourage people exactly what you said, look at what

(38:54):
you're already doing and then don't. It's not if you
have a day where you don't do it, it's not
the end of the world. It doesn't need to be
this big, massive life change, it really should be something
that feels good to you, and most likely that's going
to be something you're already doing. And yeah, it's funny
you mentioned that it doesn't have to be at a

(39:14):
specific time, because when I was reading your book, I thought, oh, yeah,
there's already rituals I do every day. And then I
my next thought was, but I'm not doing it right
because it's at all different times. So you know, some mornings,
I might wake up at six. Some mornings, I might
wake up at nine. Some nights I go to bed
at tens, and nights I go to bed at doing
the morning. And just hearing you say right now, it
doesn't matter what time it is. I do the same

(39:35):
thing every day when I wake up, and I do
the same thing every night before I go to bed.
And that's great. I mean, I think that's more consistency
than probably most people. You know. Um, And but I
was a little bit beating myself up because I'm I know,
I just want to be one of those people that
goes to bed at this time and wakes up at
this time. But it's not always possible. Depending on what

(39:57):
you're doing on certain days, or you know anything, how
you fee you all. And but there's this um I
can get kind of I think it's perfectionist about a ritual.
I remember, you know Steve Jobs, where was the same
He's got seven black turtlenecks, and a lot of people
live that way. They just have one outfit they wear,
and I'm always like, that's the ultimate way to live.

(40:18):
And it's like, well, maybe it is if those people
want to, but I clearly don't want to because I'm
not doing that. But there's always this like I'm doing
it wrong. So it's good to hear that there's no
rules except the rule of do the same thing. Yeah,
you're ritual might be pick a fun outfit every day,
you know, very different. But still I had this where

(40:39):
I recently got on TikTok and I'm now just constantly
on TikTok and there's so many like hot girl rituals
of making avocado toast in the morning, and I don't
like avocado toast. I'm just gonna put it out there.
So that's an example of like there's all this it's
kind of social pressure from social media, like this is
the ritual of a woman who has it all and

(41:02):
like looks great and have a cool life, but the
fundamental fact is like I don't enjoy that, and so
it would actually be really bad for me to make
that my ritual. So again it's just casting all out
aside and looking into yourself and say, like, what actually
is comforting to me. There's a magazine I think it's
I think it's Harper's Bizarre or just Bizarre. Um. It

(41:25):
used to be my favorite part of every issue. They
ask a very successful person what their daily schedule is,
and it's always like, I'm an Italian shoe designer, you know,
and it's this fabulous lifeel like I get up at
six thirty and I make a cappuccino and then I
stretch with my personal trainer, and then I take a walk,
and then I check my email at nine, and then

(41:47):
then it's like then I make a big lunch and
it's two hours long and there's wine, and it just
sounds like a great day. But it's very regimented at
the same time, and they always get like no sleep,
Like then I could have been at midnight and I
can't think six, you know, And I'm Whenever I read those,
I get so convinced that this person really lives this
way and that I'm failing at not And I'm like,

(42:08):
I know, if I showed up at your villa, you're not.
There's no way you go make a cappuccino and don't
check your email. I just don't believe you. Maybe you
did that once. Maybe you're talking about your goal, but like,
come on, like, nobody's perfect, and if they are, that's great.
Like I celebrate that perfect person that I read about,
But um, I'm going to achieve that for sure. Your

(42:31):
assistant told you it's lunchtime. Your chef has made you lunch.
You know, It's like, yeah, I don't have an assistant.
I don't have a chef. My life looks different. I'm
gonna get a hot pocket. We'll continue the interview on
the flip side of a quick message from our sponsors

(42:56):
getting back to you at the brilliant separating them withins
from the beyonds As you talked about, the next part
of that, you say is when we talk about the within,
so things that are within our control. The caveat to
that is make a plan from which you'll deviate. And
you say that a NASA scientist or doctor told you

(43:19):
that the teams. They are refer to agendas as quote
plans from which we deviate. So even if NASA can reroute,
I think we can in our daily lives. So I
love that. It's like, one of my favorite expressions is
get out of result. Is there an example of a
way to know what is within your control and then
be ready for the possible deviation. Yeah, So I think

(43:45):
even just kind of already setting out with this idea
of a plan from which I'll deviate opens you up
to learning along the way to being flexible. So many
example of let's say you're looking for a new job,
you might map out here are kind of two to
three specific things I can do, and then a reasonable
time frame is the next two weeks. And so the

(44:06):
plan from which I'll deviate is I'll send out ten resumes.
I'll reach out to five people in my network, and
I will send out an email or make a post
on LinkedIn or whatever it might be wherever you're looking
for a job. Um, and then from there it's like, okay,
if I get interviews, here's how I'll prepare. But it's
still being open to while it could be that one

(44:27):
of my friends has this crazy opening at their company.
That's amazing. Um. And so it's like I'm going to
prepare for the traditional interview, but I'm also going to
be ready to deviate from that if there's something unexpected
that comes up, or it could be that something in
my life changes that makes me want to stay where
I am right now. UM. So it just it helps

(44:49):
you unhook from the sense of I need to control
every step of the path and if something else comes up,
it's very disruptive as opposed to potentially really cool opportunity
that you just haven't thought about. That's why I found
it really helpful too. I love what you're saying about,
like get out of results. Um. And I would add

(45:10):
to that too, just it's it's more useful to be
clear on what you enjoy and what you value and
what you're sort of big picture goals are Like maybe
your big picture goal is money, or it's free time,
or it's just freedom to do whatever you want, because
that's a much more flexible thing to work with. Then

(45:32):
I need to be a lawyer. Um, there's so many
different kinds of lawyers, Like do you actually want to
be a lawyer? That could change, but most likely if
you have this fundamental like I just I really like
to control my time. Then that's a better way to
take this new opportunity and say, like, will this allow
me to continue living on the schedule that I really
enjoy or is it suddenly gonna make me wake up

(45:53):
at six am every morning? It's just a better decision
making framework. It's really I feel, at the end of
the day, all work with feelings, emotions, anxieties is like,
the more you know yourself and can design a life
that makes you as comfortable as possible, there's no right
or wrong. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, um and and yeah, and

(46:19):
that takes a lot of courage. It's not easy. Um.
So I'm a proud introvert. And so what I've found
actually really is valuable to me is having one weekend
day where I have no plans, where it's like I'm
just going to read a book. I'm going to not
see anyone, and I've made that a rule. I've also
found that people take rules less personally than just a no.

(46:41):
So now my friends all know, like this is Lez's
weird Saturday rule. And it was that very uncomfortable to
say that at first, to be like I would love
to have dinner with you. But I have this rule
where on Saturdays I just need downtime to see nobody
and do nothing. Um, but it's become much more easy,
and then it actually allows me to show up the

(47:01):
next time I see them and be a way better
friend because I'm not like this was supposed to be
my Saturday where I was lying in bed, you know,
like why am I here? I'm not like dragging myself
to these events anymore. It's like, oh, this is fun,
and I know that I have a day to myself
coming up to I love that, and it brings us
into burnout, which I wanted to talk about. I have

(47:22):
the same thing where right now I'm in a burnout.
I'm I'm on my way out of it. There's a
there's a light at the end of the tunnel. But
I just happened to have a billion jobs at once,
and none of them were negotiable, and it it was
like one job was supposed to start January and it
didn't start to October, which is when another one was starting,
and like, I just had to do both, and I
wanted to do both. I suppose I could have just

(47:44):
blown one up and been like no, but I knew
I could get it all done, but it was a
seventy hour work week I couldn't. So I would do
this kind of people pleasing thing. If a friend asked
me to hang out, I'd be like, well, I don't
have a plan for Saturday, but it would be my
one day free because I would work about six days
a week. And at one point I just had to
say to a few friends of mine, I felt like

(48:06):
unless I had like a thing I had to do
that I could tell them about that. I couldn't say
I need me time because I think I didn't want
to hear it. In other words from them, you work
too much and then you're alone on this one day.
It's like, I know, but when I'm overworked, that's what
I need. Like going out with people seems like work.
So I'm so sorry. You might not see me for

(48:27):
a couple of months, you know, or you might if
we I'm into spontaneity weirdly, but that one day I
really need and it was it was hard to to do. Ultimately,
everybody was fine. It does bring up a lot of
unsolicited advice I wasn't asking for, but um, you know,
I think that's really great because I cannot function if

(48:49):
I'm just go, go, go, go go. I do need
a lot of down time that isn't oh I'm at home.
Maybe I'll just putter around and do some work like
update my website or whatever. It's like, no, no, no no,
I need to read a book. If I don't do that,
I will hit a like mini burnout, and I will
cancel everything and I will hide, which feels stressful because

(49:12):
people are wondering where I am and I'm not communicating,
and I'll binge like you know, stranger things for three days,
and so I have to balance that kind of like
I can lay on the couch and binge, but it
feels better if people know about it. Then if I'm
like hiding from the world because I'm so overwhelmed. That
was just a long monologue, not a question, but no,

(49:32):
that resonates a lot. It reminds me of this, and
I think, yeah, like every I think we often we
just feel all this pressure, especially if you're people pleaser
to say yes, and then we forget about when you
say yes to one thing, you're saying no to something else,
and we often just don't see it that way, and
so starting to be like Okay, if I say yes

(49:52):
to taking my Saturday and you know, going on a
bar crawl or you know, running to the beach, running
to this and running whatever it is, you're saying no
to feeling good on Sunday, You're saying no to checking
in with your friends for the whole next week because
you're going to be exhausted. And so I think actually
starting to get clear on like what's the no within

(50:15):
this yes can help you make a better decision and
be like, actually, I don't want to say no to
these things, so I'm going to say no to the
first one. Um. And I think we often don't do that.
It's just like, oh I feel those pressure, Okay, I'll
say yes, and then we actually end up in a
way worse spot than if we had just been up front,
like you said, I'm just communicated and said like, hey,
i'm you know, I'm really working hard. Here's what's going

(50:37):
on with my projects. I'm excited about them. It's probably
gonna be like this for a month or two, but like,
let's definitely grab dinner when things settled down. Like that's
totally fair, absolutely, And you reminded me of you know,
during the pandemic like the I mean, it's still going on,
but like I mean, the first few months, I was

(50:58):
very burned out. And in the book, um, I think
it was Molly that wrote the essay about flying all
the time and seeing everyone in first class that you
know they were there and able to afford those tickets
because they flew so much, they had miles. And that
was the story of my life. And I never enjoyed
first class. I just sat there typing and doing another project,
on the way to another project, and I was starting

(51:20):
to burn out. And I remember saying to someone, and
I swear this is way before this is like probably
three weeks before, however, COVID manifested in that wet market,
Like before that happened. I said to someone, I for
my schedules already said I'm on this tour and I
don't want to do it, and I need I don't

(51:42):
need a vacation, I need for one year of the
world to stop. I literally said that, Um I did this,
I forgot to tell it. When to stop, I said,
a year. But but I mean, I really I was
lucky because I got some other work. I could work
from home and it made no difference but um, I

(52:02):
needed to stop this touring life. I didn't want to
do anymore, and I didn't want to do fifty things
at once. And I got to the point where I said,
I need time off. And there's always something right, like
you're doing my podcast right now, Like someone wants you
to do their podcast, someone wants you to whatever whatever.
Talk to their friend's son for a minute about I

(52:22):
don't know the cologe you went to or your book
you wrote. And yes, each individual thing is ten minutes
or an hour, and yes, do I have an hour? Yes,
But if I say but if I make it a
rule that like, for the next three months while we're
in lockdown, I am not doing podcasts. I'm not doing
your son wants to pick my brain about comedy, nothing

(52:45):
everyone gets known. Then it's easier because what tends to
happen is I make an exception when I can do this,
and then I keep doing it. And then I look
at my calendar and every day has like three quote
interruptions in it that I don't need to do. It's
not making me any money, it's not furthering me in
any way. They're just favors, which is fine. Every once
in a while to do them, but I was just

(53:05):
so burned out that even an hour of giving my
time I couldn't do it. I was And that was
like tough, because, like you say in your book, burnout
is not obvious. So other people like when you mean
you're burnt out, and it seems like you're being rude,
but it's I never want to get to that place
again where I have to completely shut down and I'm
glad that there's a global pandemic for a year. I mean,

(53:26):
that's not a normal way to live, where it's like
balls to the wall and then oh good, we're locked
in our owns, Like that's not that's not good. Yeah.
I mean I've heard this from so many people who, yeah,
obviously the pandemic was hugely challenging for infinite number of reasons.
But people kind of saying like there was the silver lining,

(53:50):
which was just getting to breathe for a second, and
suddenly you didn't have to say yes to everything, um,
because we couldn't be in a room with other people. Um.
And So I think one thing you're bringing up that
is that I try to keep in mind too, is
we is just remembering that, like your health is the
foundation for everything else you want to do. And so

(54:13):
again we often we just say yes. We say yes.
We say yes because we feel like we should or
we don't want to be rude. But it's actually like,
if you want to make an impact on the world,
if you actually want to help other people, you really
do have to take care of yourself first. So on
an extreme level, it's easy to see this if you're
like so sick, you're in the hospital, you can't take
on any work. But then we were just not able

(54:36):
to see the less extreme but equally important version, which
is like, well, yeah, but if you're run down, if
you're exhausted, if you're not sleeping, you're also not really
showing up in the way you want to um, and
so it's it's real. Yeah, it's I used to do
this thing where I would I would try to set
boundaries by punting stuff into the future, so I'd be like, Okay,

(54:58):
I can't do it this month, but I can it
next month, and that funds really good. But then I
would get to the next month and be like, oh
my god, what is going on this month? Because it
was just like a complete mess. My calendar was a
disaster zone. It's like throwing something in your closet to
put away later, and when doing you open it and
just like avalanches on you. Yeah, exactly. And so now

(55:19):
I've started to be like, don't commit to this in
two months. Just be like I just can't take this
on right now or like or like you said, you know,
like that, I just have a lot going on, and
so I'm sort of saying no, of blanket no to
these kinds of things. Um, but yeah, I just also
want to encourage people. Don't do the like I'll do
it next month, I'll do it in two months, because

(55:40):
that month is you're going to run yourself into the ground.
Anxiety bites will be right back after a quick little
message from one of our sponsors. One thing I've also seen,

(56:00):
and I don't know how many people this applies to,
but I reached out to someone once just asking them like, yeah,
like I would love advice on this thing, and they
had actually put together a short pdf, just being like,
here are some resources, because I get asked this question
kind of frequently, and so they said, I don't have
time to meet with everyone, but here's a pdf that

(56:20):
other people have told me as helpful, and so it
was this really nice way of you obviously genious, it's
so smart. Um. And so I think if there is
something that you get asked frequently, that's a nice way
of still offering help. But you're not, you know, dedicating
an hour of your time every three days to this conversation.

(56:43):
It's like that thing on your text when UM isn't
I think there's a thing you can set on your
text that's just like be right there, you know, or
something so like yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like it's like
the bigger version of that. Well, it's interesting that because
and I know you have to go, I'll let you go,
like I minutes even give me fun worth. But I
feel like, um, culturally it's really hard because everyone else,

(57:07):
even if it's not like a high powered CEO, even
it's just someone with like a regular old job where
you know, there's a million other jobs like it, but
they're just busy. They've got their thing, they've got their kids,
they've got their job that I don't know whatever. I
feel like everyone is in a burnout, not just like
the highest powered CEO or real estate agent or whatever.
And so I I found like, unless I'm in the hospital,

(57:29):
there is not a lot of sometimes, um, I don't know,
it's not compassion or but there's there's been a lot
of um oh, you take such good care of yourself,
Like I'm doing something extra by saying, hey, you know,
I got in last night late from you know, my tour.
My plane landed at one, I went to bed at three,

(57:51):
So I think getting brunch at noon, I think it's
just gonna be. I think I need to sleep and
just you know, not have mimosas. It's like, wow, you're
a real health not and it's like, no, that should
not be considered like a health night, you know. And
I've the most regiment that I've ever been. And that's
why in one way I miss touring is I had
my routines, you know, get there, do a little work

(58:14):
out at the hotel, have a five o'clock dinner, shower,
do the shows, go to bed, repeat. I didn't do
any extra it and go out after because I'd have
to take care of my voice. And also, like even
free pandemic, you know, you can get a cold from someone,
um if you go out and or close talking in
a bar and it's midnight, and I just I mean
also just never was tempted to go out that lad.

(58:36):
I was always tired, but people would say, wow, you're
a hypochondriac. I'm like, it's it's not a hypochondria to
say I use my voice for a living. If there's
no show, there's no money, I cannot lose my voice.
So I'm not gonna go screaming in a bar tonight.
But there there is this like, if you take the
littlest care of yourself I have had, it's not pushedback,

(58:57):
but comments, and it sometimes admire ring, you know, but
like wow, what great. I'm like, this is not where
we should be as a society. That should not be
considered like extreme self care, you know. So I think
it's really hard because we're all in the cycle of
everyone else is doing the burnout thing and we look
like kind of like princess e divas, and that's for

(59:20):
all genders. If we set boundaries, it's hard, Yeah, totally.
It's also it's not just the comments. It's what we're
rewarded for in society. So you're going to be rewarded
for doing a ton of shows and having an interview
and being featured in this and that. No one's going
to reward you for a setting Saturday aside two binge

(59:44):
watch Netflix, right, Like right, there's no one's clapping for you,
no one's thumbs up in that accomplishment on Twitter or
whatever it is. Um So I think it does come
back to, yeah, just having essentially the courage to say,
this is my reward to myself. This is like what
I need to do, and it's in. You also brought

(01:00:06):
up the being on tour, you had this set routine,
and I've heard from so many people over and over
again like this sounds bad, but the thought of getting
a little sick, or the thought of having my internet
go down, or that it's like these mini pandemics. You know,
it's like it would be such a relief because I
could finally take a breather. Um And so that, yeah,

(01:00:29):
that's a horrible place to be in. Like you should
never see your vacation as a recovery. You should never
see getting sick as like a much needed break. You know,
that's not a brand, that's your body shutting down. Um
And so I think the more you can internalize that
and really remind yourself this is just like whatever anyone says,

(01:00:52):
it doesn't matter if I get likes for this. This
is actually what I need to do to show up
for the things that are important to me, that I
need to pay the bills, that kind of thing. And Yeah,
as you see in the book, burnout isn't obvious, So
no one's going to come up to you go, oh
my god, you need a break. Like It's right. It's
the final moment of burnout where you're like, Okay, I'm

(01:01:12):
shutting the world down. I'm collapsing him in the hospital. Sure,
that's obvious, but all the moments, the many things that
are creating the burnout that's going to come, that's never obvious, right,
like to ourselves, even I guess as well. Yeah. One
thing that it's been funny because I've done a lot
of like talks and workshops around the book with Molly,

(01:01:33):
and one thing that really seems to resonate with people
is when we say, watch out for the early signs
of burnout. So one of them is this thing called
revenge bedtime procrastination. Yes, yes, And it's like, yeah, you
it's this thing where it's not obvious, but the moment
someone articulates that, you're like, oh my god, that's what

(01:01:55):
I've been doing. So it's you have a really busy day,
you don't have time for yourself, you get into bed
at all, then whatever, Um, and you should go to
sleep because you're exhausted and your body is asleep, and
maybe you have an early wake up time, and instead
you get on TikTok, you start checking your email, you're
reading articles, you're on Twitter, whatever it might be. And

(01:02:16):
so it's this, it's basically your self sabotaging and you're
getting into a cycle where now you're even more tired
the next day. And then it builds and builds and builds.
And what that is a signal of is that you
just have not had time for yourself during the day.
So this is you trying to claw back some sense
of control, some sense of me time. Um. And it

(01:02:37):
is like, yeah, when when we talk about this, we
like that I do that. So and so there are
these smaller signals of burnout that we're just not aware of.
No one has told us this is a sign that
you need to build more breaks into your day. Um.
It's so yeah, I think there's just we're a society

(01:03:01):
that rewards business and under educates people about these early
signs of like you are not living a sustainable life.
And lastly, I love what you said. Your friend Navid
created a Google document titled who am I, and he

(01:03:22):
wrote what his values are and you can expand on it,
but it basically he looked at it was like, I'm
not doing any of this. Yeah, yeah, so he had
gotten He also now it's interesting, he's a coach who
helps other people who have gone through burnout. So and
this it's sort of based on this experience he had.

(01:03:42):
We worked really hard for this promotion and got promoted
and felt terrible and it just wasn't this huge milestone
accomplishment he had expected it to be. So he made
the schoogle doc and then set aside the job career
expectations and wrote out things he knew that made him
feel good, that brought him lightness. Um and I can't

(01:04:03):
remember exactly it was on those, but things like I
invest in others, I take care of my health by exercise,
I have hobbies I enjoy. And then he went through
the list and highlighted the ones that he was actually practicing,
and he was there was almost nothing on the list
that was he was actually doing. And so that's when
he realized that this promotion. Again, it was it was

(01:04:25):
just not aligned with his values at all. And so
then he started to think, like, what is a career
that would be better aligned with these things? And now
he makes it a regular practice to go into this
document and just do a quick check in of you
know it to be like more than fifty of the
things are true in this moment, like I am taking
care of myself, I am prioritizing my friends, um. And

(01:04:47):
he says that that is for him. The best way
to check in on has he built a sustainable life
for himself or is he kind of veering off of
his values and getting too influenced by outside pressures that
aren't actually helping him achieve what he wants to achieve.
Is there any big, big ticket item of inspiration that

(01:05:10):
you don't want to leave anybody? I would just say,
you know, giving yourself grace along the way. Some of
these things might not work for you, some might work great.
There's not a one size fits all. And again the
goal shouldn't be I'm going to never feel anxiety and
never be exhausted. That's just you sign up for life.

(01:05:31):
You're gonna be tired, You're gonna be anxious, right, it's
more about just coping with it and having better responses.
So you've been moved through it more quickly. I hope
you enjoyed my conversation with Liz fossil Ling, and these
are the takeaways for this episode. Again, you can find

(01:05:52):
the takeaways on my website Jen Kirkman dot com and
then click anxiety Bites. As always, the link is in
the show notes, which are located on whatever podcast app
you're listening to this one. So the big takeaways from
my talk with Liz vos Lean about big feelings. Studies

(01:06:13):
show that humans hate uncertainty. Most people would rather know
for sure that something bad is going to happen tomorrow
than only have a fifty chance of something bad happening tomorrow.
Humans have a deep aversion to uncertainty because our brains
play tricks on us to make us feel like we
can predict the future, which makes us feel a sense

(01:06:34):
of control. Anxiety does not accurately affect risk or reflect risk.
There's a mismatch between how stressed we feel about something
and the likelihood that it will happen. People can go
into quote anxious fixing, vacuuming, making to do lists, et cetera,

(01:06:54):
instead of sitting down and taking five minutes to check
in and feel how their feeling, and then people end
up exhausted after all this anxious fixing and are still
no closer to getting rid of the anxiety that they
were originally feeling. How do you sit and notice your feelings?
You can sit down anywhere and ask yourself if you

(01:07:17):
have a specific fear going on, are the specific scenarios
that you're afraid of realistic? Name them and look realistically
at what you can do about it. Draw a boundary
between what you can control and what you can't. You
have to separate the withins from the beyond, things within

(01:07:38):
your control and things beyond your control. Adopting a mantra
of I am a person who is learning how to
blank instead of trying to be perfect helps You don't
need to know all of the answers to anything that
you're anxious about right now. It's okay to not know

(01:07:58):
what your five year plants. Doing Any kind of ritual,
even if it's having the same breakfast every day or
doing the same things before bed every night, can help
us with anxiety. Any kind of ritual counts, and it
doesn't have to be at the same time every day.
Even scientists at NASA say that they make plans, but

(01:08:20):
they think of agendas as plans from which we deviate.
Learning how to make a plan, but be flexible for
that plan if it doesn't go exactly how you wanted.
Is how to handle things without anxiety. Some people have
more tolerance of uncertainty, and that's okay. We are allowed
to design the life we want, and if we are

(01:08:41):
drawn to riskier or safer jobs, that's up to each
individual to assess. Work. Burnout is not something that you
can recover from by taking a one week vacation. People
usually ignore the signs of burnout because they don't know
what they are. One example of them is revenge bedtime procrastination.

(01:09:02):
Thanks again for listening to Anxiety Bites. Stay tuned for
another new episode next week, and just remember Anxiety Bites,
but You're in control. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.