November 17, 2021 • 41 mins
Jen talks to clinical psychologist Dr. Jennifer Contarino Panning about her work with adolescents with anxiety. They also discuss the rise in anxiety among college students and how simple things like nature and building a life work well along with therapy in curbing anxiety.
Dr. Panning also coined the term "Trump Anxiety Disorder" and was a contributer to the 2017 book: 'The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President.'
For more information on Dr. Panning's work click here: https://www.evanstonpsychologists.com/our-evanston-therapists/dr-jennifer-contarino-panning-evanston-psychologist/
Anxiety Bites is distributed by the iHeartPodcast Network and co-produced by Dylan Fagan and JJ Posway.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode. My guest today is
Dr Jennifer Panning. Now, before I tell you all about
Dr Panning, I guess I'll give you a little bit
of heads up about this episode. We talk about politics,
(00:30):
and in specific, we talk about Donald Trump. Now, I
want everyone who listens to this podcast to feel included.
This is certainly not a political podcast, but there is
an element to politics and how we consume media, about
politics being a cause for some of our anxiety, and
(00:56):
there was a phenomenon where a lot of people who
wouldn't label themselves as political started paying attention to politics
after Trump got elected, and they also found themselves experiencing anxiety.
So there is a connection and it's a conversation to
(01:16):
be had. However, if you are a Donald Trump supporter
and you don't want to sit around for the Trump bashing,
which truly, in my humble opinion, I don't think it is,
but I know we're really divided on this as a nation.
I still think you can get a lot out of
this episode by just thinking about again your relationship to
(01:38):
the media you consume, what do we do when politics
has caused us some anxiety. So that's just my little caveat,
because this episode is different than a lot of the
other ones because we do talk about the real world
and not that anything else I've talked about isn't the
real world, but you know what I'm saying. We also
(02:00):
do discuss the pandemic of I know it's still going on,
but the initial lockdown of and how it changed all
of our lives and how that caused and contributed to anxiety.
And we talk about Dr Panning's main career right now,
which is working with students, and so we do segue
(02:22):
into a conversation about what teenagers and young people are
facing right now that is unique to their generation, and
some of the things about being young that is not
unique to any generation, and how you can support the
young people in your life. So. Dr Jennifer Panning is
the founder and president of the Mindful Psychology Associates PC.
(02:43):
She's been an Illinois licensed clinical psychologist for sixteen years.
She received her doctors Psychology degree in clinical psychology from
Chicago School of Professional Psychology in two thousand three. She
completed trainings at Northwestern University Counseling and Psychological Services Center
and Northern Illinois University Counseling and Student Development Center, developing
(03:04):
her expertise in college student mental health. She has her
private practice in Evanston, Illinois, which she has had since
two thousand four. However, in she authored a chapter for
the New York Times bestselling book The Dangerous Case of
Donald Trump twenty seven Mental Health Experts Assess a President.
(03:25):
Her contribution was entitled Trump Anxiety Disorder, and from coining
that term, she was that led her to being interviewed
a lot, writing and speaking about the anxiety and fear
amidst the existing socio political climate. Dr Panning has since
been featured in New York Magazine, The Washington Post, Esquire,
(03:49):
CBS News, and many more. So again, I talked to
Dr Panning today about about all of this. How you know.
I have a theory that people who had anxiety before
Trump became president maybe didn't talk about it, maybe they
weren't even aware that they had it. But everyone who
was of the same political stripes bonding over the fact
(04:10):
that they didn't want this man to be president, it
felt more comfortable for them to say I have anxiety
about the president. Oh me too, whereas before they wouldn't say, well,
I have anxiety about how I feel I'm performing at
work or if I'm a good parent to my kids.
But it gave us a common language. Now that's my theory.
Doctor panting will enlighten me more on what she thinks
(04:30):
about that, because I've read her credentials out loud to you,
and I don't have any of those credentials. I'm just,
as I say, a dumb comedian. We talk about how
the pandemic caused us anxiety, and how a lot of
people are continuing to languish despite things being semi back
to normal or at least not in total lockdown here
in America, and what will post COVID life look like.
(04:52):
I do have to give you a heads up. We
did record this interview before the Delta variant was rampant
in America, So if we ever sound hopeful or maybe
even naive, like do they not know about the Delta variant,
we did not yet at the time of this recording.
And again we talked about her work with college students
and what it's like to be young and have anxiety today,
(05:15):
to not be able to draw on too much life
experience and say, oh, I've been in this situation before.
I'll be okay. Young people are at the beginning of
their life journey and they need adults to help give
them proper tools and to validate how they feel as well.
So I hope you enjoy my talk with Dr Panning
and we'll catch you on the flip side of the
(05:36):
interview with some takeaways that we got from Dr Panning.
Thank you so much for being here, Dr Panning. I
know we have the first same first name, Jennifer. Yeah, okay,
well I might, but I like to be respected. You
can call me Dr Kirkman. So I want to have
(06:00):
you on the show because you're you're really an expert
in two areas. I know that your real uh. I
was gonna see your real life as though you have
an alternate life. Your day to day practice. You are
working with college students. Yes, I own a I own
a group practice in Evanston, Illinois, which is one suburb
north of Chicago. The practice is called Mindful of Psychology
(06:23):
Associates and so um, I'm uh I had it. And
then we have a other therapist and we're hiring more therapists.
So I started in private practice in two thousand four
in Evanston after doing my post doctoral training at Norcosterian
University Counseling Center. So I've been working with college students
for almost twenty years now. M HM and you also
(06:45):
were part of a book that came out a couple
of years ago about President Trump and I. The name
of that book was Dangerous Case of Donald Trump. Mental
Health Experts assass the President. You coined the term Trump
anxiety disorder? Is that that's true right now? I had
read an article at the beginning of Trump's presidency, and
(07:06):
I have people in my life who I know that
they're anxious. I can see it. Um, there's no way
that I have anxiety and they don't, but there is
some denial. But when Trump became president, it was almost
actually a very freeing thing for them to start saying,
I'm anxious because Trump is dot dot dot right, give
them permission to talk about it openly. So when when
(07:28):
we talk about the many ways that Trump being president
and the media and social media around Trump gave people anxiety,
do you think though, that some people had anxiety in general,
perhaps even generalized anxiety disorder already, and this just gave
them a story to tell. Um, I don't think I
gave a story to tell, but I do think people
(07:49):
who had pre existing anxiety disorders or tendency towards anxiety,
we're certainly more impacted by Trump than than other people
because you think about anxiety disorder, like the uncertainty and
the unpredictability is a big component of anxiety, right, People
who like to be in control, you know, because they think,
if if I control my world, I will have you know,
(08:11):
my ability to feel calm and feel like I don't
know what's coming next. And Trump just blew all of
that up, right. I mean, that is the biggest I
think take away from his presidency was just the chaos
and the uncertainty and the you know, day to day
checking the news, what is he saying, what is he tweeting?
What outlandish thing is happening next? So I think that
(08:33):
people just really you know, who were anxious before picked
up on that and it was really um hard and
traumatic for them to make sense of that. I think,
you know, we see now like Biden is like a normal,
boring president, right, I mean, a typical president in that
we're not worrying, you know, what he's he's doing. On
a daily basis with all these sort of outlandish, chaotic
(08:56):
tweets and things like that, we kind of know he's
doing president central things, as did Obama, as did Bush,
I mean, all the you know, typical presidents beforehand. So
Trump was just a completely different um president than we've
ever had, and for for many of us, we struggled
and suffered with how like, how do we reconcile that
(09:17):
and how do we stay rounded with all this chaos
and uncertainty happening. Well, it's interesting that you say, you know,
we all say this, Biden's boring, thank god, But I
think it's funny because you know, um, as a doctor,
that boring is really not the opposite of chaos, right,
you know, it's more like content would be the opposite
(09:38):
of chaos. I mean, obviously, without getting too deep into
politics about it all, but if if we want to
look at it very basically, the man who was on
social media all day and who did have the you know,
key to the nuclear football, he's he's not there. So technically,
on one level, a lot has dissipated just because of that. Now,
obviously we have a whole other world with conspiracy theorists
(10:02):
going on and we still always have to fight for
a democracy no matter what. But the big head has
been cut off the hydros. So does that just mean
the anxiety goes away for people that just developed anxiety
because of Trump? And mean that can't be true, right,
Are they left with PTSD or they what do they do? Yeah,
(10:23):
I'm seeing a lot of people who are both grateful
for this. You know, let's say may be boring, but
traditional like a traditional president, right, a typical president American
president where he's working behind the scenes. There's you know,
we're seeing things like the vaccine rollouts. We're seeing all
these things happening, but we're not hearing him brag about
it or you know, talk about in outlantish ways. So
(10:45):
you know, I think we are coming down. I mean
the other thing that you know, obviously in terms of
we look at Trump's presidency back in the early um
days of it. In this past year, we have this
confluence of anxiety for producing factors. We had the pandemic,
we had the politicized part of the pandemic, we had
(11:06):
George Floyd's murder, the resulting protests. Um, they're just you know,
racial tension that was kind of out in the UH
in our direct we couldn't avoid it anymore. And then
you know, still going on with with the pandemic. UM
people were sick and all sorts of things that came together,
(11:28):
right and Trump is you know, obviously was in that mix.
But for people who struggle with anxiety and just people
in general, this past year has increased anxiety and mental
health has deteriorated across the board across America. We you know,
you can find statistics all over the place that talked
about how much depression anxiety symptoms have increased this past
(11:51):
year and how much UM in particular, you know, young
adults are are struggling, and so I think, you know,
I look at us, this just layered issue in terms
of there was so much going on and so much uncertainty.
You know, there were so many parts of this and
still the pandemic is not over. But we're still coming
down from all of this. And I don't think we're
(12:12):
going to see the psychological emotional impact until later this year,
possibly into twenty two. Because you think about it, you know,
we're we've been on survival mode because we've had to write,
and you think about like we I've talked a lot
about the phases of the pandemic, right the this is
kind of like a summer party and we're all in
its together a phase, and then the oh my gosh,
(12:34):
we're not this isn't going to be gone by summer,
and the you know, trying to juggle kids and remote
learning and all sorts of uncertainty in terms of both,
as you said, like the conspiracy theory still going on
and also really confusing information that was changing quite rapidly.
We're still figuring that out in terms of psychologically having
to survive that and having to be on a sort
(12:56):
of day to day adrenaline fueled trying to understand how
to how to be safe. But that's gonna take a
while to really come down from that because humans are
not designed for long term trauma and crisis. We're designed
for short term, you know crisis you think about, you know,
with um our fight or flight system that's designed for
(13:17):
like short term running away from a threat. As humans,
our brains and our bodies are not designed for long
term threat assessments. So we're exhausted. We're feeling just sort
of you know, kind of languishing and not feeling great
and that's part of this process of coming down from
such an intensely exhausting time in our history. It's interesting
(13:40):
you said languishing. I did read an article in the
New York Times recently that said we were languishing, And
you know, I never really understood what that word meant.
I confuse it with luxuriating and and languishing, you know,
as I just came to learn means, you know, that
feeling of why do I wake up in the morning
and just look at social media and I can't really
start my day and I'm just but it's not enjoyable,
It's not leisure or you know. Yeah, and it's interesting.
(14:02):
You know, I'm fully vaccinated, and I went and flew
home to see my family. I live in Californiay live
in Massachusetts, and I hadn't seen them in sixteen months.
It was so normal that I remember thinking it really
was like, alway, should have not them yesterday. Oh this
is normal. There was there was zero feeling that had
ever happened. Do you think that what I'm describing as
sort of feeling like it never happened is some kind
(14:22):
of trauma response. Absolutely, And in my practice what I'm
seeing a lot of is people's anxieties around going back
to pre COVID life, right, and what does that look like?
You know, will I still feel connected to my family
and my friends? Like I think that is definitely a
traumal response. And you know something I've been talking a
lot about with people, It's like, Okay, all your feelings
(14:45):
make total sense. You're you know, we're getting back to normal,
but we're not really normal. You know that. I mean
that just is where we're at right now in terms
of uh in our country. Yeah, things will feel normal,
And you know what I will often talk of up
with clients, It's like, Okay, remember that shift that we
had to make in March. Everything changed, people working from home,
(15:07):
people who were in school, We're going to zoom classes,
Like everything changed pretty drastically within that month. This re
entry into society is not going to feel as extreme
as that, because it will be kind of the sense
like what you're talking about, like having a through all this,
and then at some point we will feel a little
more settled and safe with celebrations like we will have
(15:31):
grief in terms of you know, remembering like wow, the
you know graduation last year, my song graduated from eighth
grade last year, and it was like a drive through
graduation and they did the best they could with you
do during COVID, but there were so many events that
people we were canceled, that missed out on. It had
to dramatically change. And so I think when we re
(15:52):
fall back into um society, things like you know, holidays
or weddings or graduations, our milestone birthdays, we may have
some grief coming up remembering like, wow, this feels so
good and we missed you know, a lot of this
and the year plus that we were kind of in
in lockdown. We'll be right back after this quick message
(16:17):
from one of our sponsors. So as you're working with
college students, can you just tell me about what what
they're experiencing and how it is kind of the same
as it ever was and maybe even a little bit
different for this generation. Yeah, so a little backstory. I mean,
(16:41):
college student mental health has been detererating for probably about
ten years. So we just kind of see year after
year that more students are struggling, that more reaching out
for you know, to their compling centers of the universities
and they can't keep up with the demand and therapists
often aren't able to keep up with the demand for services,
so they are able to google symptoms. But they also
(17:02):
talk openly about therapy. You know, they're like sharing their
tips from you know, their therapists with their friends. There
there's not a stigma about going to therapy is just
like really weird, you know, bad sign. I think they
see it as more healthy and a positive thing. So
that is you know, coud generation of being able to
see this as a healthy and I think their parents
(17:24):
often are more educated around you know, seeing therapy and
mental health services as a proactive way to get support. UM.
So you know, that is sort of the bigger picture
that the issue around college state mental health has vendeturiating
for years, year after year, UM, and the pandemic just
continue to kind of blow that apart. When you think
(17:44):
about college student development in terms of they're like psychological
emotional task during college is to separate from their families
of origin and develop their own identity, right to start
that process of separating from you know, what they were
in their family unit and figuring out who am I
on my own and independently you know, of my family
(18:04):
or of other expectations that people might have for me.
So when you think about that, I mean a lot
of college students, you know, they're living on their own.
They were, you know, doing their thing with their friends,
with their activities, and all that came to a halt.
I mean for many college students, you know, the dorms
shut down, they had to go back and live with
their parents all of a sudden, and their parents were home,
(18:26):
you know as well. Mostly so I mean just being
able to shift from being on your own with friends,
with your community and then being with parents, and you know,
for some it was just kind of you know, bummer, like,
I gotta be around my folks again. But for some people,
there are certainly more unsafe living environments, things that were
(18:47):
more traumatic in terms of family stress, and very unsafe
living environments. So there's always you know, levels of distress
of things like that. My mom's eight two and she
was saying, I loved a year in my life. I mean,
I could die any time. I'm maybe two and I'm
thinking one forty seven and I'm single, and I'm about
to go into menopause and I have more wrinkles now
and I should be out there dating. And you know,
(19:08):
everyone thinks their age is the worst to be stuck
at home and lose quote a year of their life.
But I mean, honestly, it probably is the FID who
is getting ready to go back to college or go
to college for the first time that that disappointment of
when do I start my life? I mean, at least
an example of my mom and me, we have a
whole life to look back on that we've lived. I
can't imagine how you know it. It seems like that
(19:32):
could be very almost too much to handle, Like how
would they even soothe themselves or feel a sense of hope?
That must rob them of hope. Yes, I mean, you know,
I work a lot of less university students, which is
where my my practice is located, and they had a
commencement last year, but it was like it was aversuum,
and this year they're doing something it's kind of like
(19:53):
attacked on to the graduation. So it's like they're getting
a little taste of it, but it's not the same,
you know, And a lot of people we saw last year,
a lot of people weren't able to say goodbye to professors,
to friends, to their community who are graduating, and they
had to just kind of deal with that process in
a very different way than the traditional like closure of
(20:15):
you know, having celebrations having left, you know, gatherings of
friends being able to have a celebration of accomplishments, but
like a goodbye to these people in these communities that
they've been been in for four years. So I think
there was some you know, loss and grief, and I
anticipate that that will continue to come up for certain
people with seeing perhaps younger friends graduate and just missing
(20:38):
but that they didn't have that experience. How do you handle?
You know? So for me, growing up with anxiety my
whole life. So I'm in college, I have anxiety. I'm
having panic attacks. My teachers don't know it of some
of them accused me of being on drugs because it
was acting so weird. But at the end of the day,
once I figured out what anxiety was for me, um,
it was the very classic like not understanding that my
(21:01):
fight or flight was kicking in and for a lot
of my anxiety was phobia. Is so everything I learned
about my anxiety was, hey, you know what, everything I've
anxiety about isn't really real, you know, um, And that
was a relief. Unfortunately, Uh, you know, I had anxiety
as a kid, I grew up during the eighties. I
thought we were going to get nuked every five minutes,
you know. So there was that as well, and that
(21:23):
was very real, and that dissipated once you know, we
sort of didn't nuke anyone or get to But then
my anxiety became more phobic. But how do you deal
and how what do you say to students who are
anxious about very real things? I mean, the world climate
change is worse now than it was when I was
in college. You know, Um, there there are actual terrible things.
(21:47):
You can't tell them it's fight or flight or so,
so how do you help them? Right? It'd be invalidating
to tell somebody, oh, this is irrational, right because there
their fears and their anxieties around the pandemic, around being isolated,
around this job market, climate curses, um, racial injustice. Everything
is legit and real and Trump, you know, in terms
(22:10):
of what we went through with with that presidency. So
I think when what I come down to with um,
those situations, it's like, Okay, where do you have control? Right?
Because a lot of anxiety is when we feel out
of control, um, And so you know, what, what do
you have control? Of birds. You know you're yourself is
that you know your um, your abilities to how you
(22:32):
spend your time, how what media you consume, UM, connections
that you make with other people, relationships all that. So
being able to help people understand, you know and validate like, yeah,
it's really scary too. You know, think about the world, um,
the state of the world and the real issues that
we're facing. And if you stay in that place too long,
(22:54):
you're probably gonna be just like curled up in a ball,
uh and unable to function because it's just and you
know that emotional reasoning and part of the brain will
just start going off and people will start feeling just
a lot of anxiety, a lot of stress, and that's
not going to be really that helpful for that person.
So in that way, it's like, you know, talking about
(23:15):
things that they have control over and also ways to
cope with that stress. I mean, you know, exercise, like
being able to release some of that physiological stress is
so important, and you know, I kind of I sometimes
she use my class like, I know, your therapist is
telling you to exercise, like you know that's so difficult,
(23:36):
and you know there's there's physiological reasons why that is
helpful because we need to be able to release you know,
that emotion and that physiological stress being outside, you know,
being able to be in nature. There's so many studies
around like the benefits of being around green trees and
how that relaxes are our brains because we're able to
(23:57):
have there's patterns of nature that we don't have, you know,
in our computer screens and some of the basics. You know,
coming back to those basics, are people sleeping enough, are
they eating enough? How much are they using on their smartphone?
Because we know, you know, logically how much that can
be damaging because we read something that is a real
(24:17):
threat um but we can unfortunately activate our finer flight
system and all of a sudden we're worrying about the
world again. And so it's not naive to be able
to protect ourselves, to be able to have some sense
of calm and connection. Well, you know, it's interesting, Uh
it sounds like, I mean, we all know what people
can do for anxiety, right, breathing exercises and thoughts stopping
(24:39):
and all that therapy stuff, But it sounds like, honestly,
underneath it all, what you're saying is like you're not
saying it like this, but get a life, And I
mean that in the best, like, have a big life,
you know. And I do think they're I think social
media has exacerbated this, this sense of if we're not
aware every second of how terrible everything is, not a
(25:00):
good enough citizen, We're not a good enough liberal, We're
not a good enough whatever. And when I've talked to
younger people, a lot of them have accused me of
being a little more chill in my forties. Oh, you
must be rich, you must have everything I'll figured out,
And I'm like, no, no, Now, I'm actually just in
acceptance of the uncertainty, you know. Um, and I cannot
(25:20):
we cannot come together on the two generations. I cannot
convince them that it's just as scary at forty seven
to not know what's going on as it is at seventeen.
But I think the one thing that really I have
learned getting older is that you know, it's it's it's everything.
You said, what do I have control over? And I
don't need to be flippant, but I have a big
(25:42):
inner life as well, you know, a spiritual life, a
sense that I'm not just this material world. I'm not
just a citizen of America. I'm also a soul and
I like to dance and sing you know around my
apartment of course, but you know things like that where
it's like it doesn't seem important, but it is kind
to the point of life, you know. And and uh,
(26:03):
I think these generations are a little bit further from
that than mine was. You know, maybe because I'm old
enough touch I I worry are they having fun or
young people having fun? You know, that's an interesting point.
I was talking about this yesterday actually, So we know,
like the young people are not taking as many risks
as our generation. And there's some good things about that, right,
(26:25):
They're having less sex, they're having pure relationship dating relationships,
they're not like driving as early, they're not experimenting as
much with substances. Like there's some good things about all
of that, right, in terms of being cautious, thoughtful, et cetera.
But then there's also some learning that they miss ada, right,
I mean, you know, think about like dating normally, you know,
(26:47):
people go through some dating experiences that aren't so great
because then they learn about who they are and what
they're looking for in a partner, and that's very helpful information.
So I see some of the young adults and I think,
you know, a pendulum past plug. I'm, you know, forty six,
and I remember my parents drapping me off of college
like hey, good luck, and I'll talk to you in
(27:08):
a week. Right, That's was parenting back then. It was
very kind of hands off and a little distant. And
now the pendulum is swung way in the extreme of
the other way. And sometimes I worry about the young
adults not having built up some of those skills to
cope with like daily, you know, stressors on their own volition.
You know, they're they're able to tax parents or other
(27:31):
people right away if they're feeling some feelings instead of
maybe just sitting with those feelings and kind of thinking
what do I want to do with this? You know, yeah,
sitting with feelings. You know, it's interesting. I found a
bunch of letters, big box of letters that my friends
and I had sent each other in college. You know,
my friends and I weren't were different colleges, and we
would write letters. And you know, there was obviously no internet,
(27:56):
no cell phones, and kids out there listening. If your
friend was in college in Colorado when you were in Boston.
That was a long distance call. Nobody had that money.
So your letters, people were sitting down writing with pen
and paper, which I know studies have shown gets you
connected to your feelings, calms calms you down. So these
little things that we I wasn't sitting there going, oh,
(28:17):
I'm hoping my nervous system. But we naturally did things
every day that actually destressed and calmed our nervous systems
and made us sit with our feelings. It takes an
hour to write a long letter, you know, Um, it
takes five seconds to send an emoji on a text.
And I again, anyone listening, I know, I sound like
the old lady, but I'm I'm doing it too. Now.
I don't write letters anymore. I send a smiley face
(28:38):
like I'm tent. We can't like get rid of technology
and give everyone a pen. But in a weird way,
it's like it's hard for them to I think believe
when you say exercise or journal, because that wasn't a
part of life every day. You know, it seems like
just some crap someone's making up. Yeah, And you know,
(28:59):
we we know we need to wonder and we need
to be able to have time just to like be creative, right,
and just like I like to put around my house
right on, like on a Saturday morning, just have my
coffee and and that's when I think about things and
result things and you know, think about ideas and such,
and so I think, you know, those simple things are
(29:19):
not always um encourage because we do have so much
of that access to technology. Uh that's immediate and always there.
It's chronic. And so yeah, I think this generation of
being able to be be outside, take a walk, you know,
being able to not have their phones connected to them
on seven. I have a twelve and a fifteen year
(29:42):
old and you know, well, I was like, all right,
we're doing an activity today. That activity is going to
the forest preserve and taking a walk with her dog.
Basic stuff because you know, during co baby couldn't do
much more than that. But you know, the rules were
like no phones, no technology. We were just gonna hang
out and it is what we could see around us,
and that was it, right, And I think there is
(30:04):
something really important about that. That's when our brain relaxes
and kind of let's go a little bit and we
notice things that are interesting. You know, it's like, yeah,
like look at that really huge tree and not beautiful.
You know those leaves that look like they've been there
for thousands of years? How long has that tree been there?
(30:25):
You know, just things that we can really immerse ourself in.
That's great too when you mentioned like an old tree,
you know, even something that gives you the sense of Okay,
so Earth has been here longer than me, probably be
here long after me. I'm just in this universe. I
know some people don't like that, but for me, the
smaller I can think of myself is very comforting, like
I don't have to solve the world's problems. In ten years,
(30:47):
we will be through this completely. There might be something
else going on, but we will be able to look
in the rear very mirror at this time in the
past and say like, oh, this is what I remember,
these are the things I took from that. And we'll
also probably honestly minimize some of the stress and the
anxiety look back at I don't know, World War two
or you know different very very stressful times in our
(31:10):
country's history. I think people have had to minimize how
really stressful and awful it was just living through that. Absolutely,
anxiety bites will be right back after a quick little
message from one of our sponsors. You know, I have
(31:36):
a quick story for you about my parents, which is
going to lead me to a question about parenting. And
then I have one last question for you know, let
you go. Thank you for taking so much time with
me today. Um So, when I was nineteen and in college,
my fear flying was out of control. I had only
flown about once a year. Every year with my parents,
we fly from Lost into Florida go to Disney World.
(31:56):
So I'd only flown about five times, ten times to
you count that it's around trip. And I had panic
attacks on plane since I was eight, and at one point,
at age fourteen, I said, the anxiety from the flight
is not worth the one week of fun in Disney World,
and I'm not flying anymore. My parents said okay, and
we didn't go. And I got to college and I
didn't do any of the trips abroad that were offered
(32:18):
through my school because I was afraid to fly. And
you know, my parents are they're not boomers, they're older,
they're silent generation. So my parents attitude, honestly was more
like I don't know, I don't know, I don't have
no advice about anything. I don't have any expectations. I
don't have any So in a way, I think that
was helpful because they also had no judgment, if that
makes sense. They just accept it for what it was. Yeah,
(32:41):
but they didn't try to fix our help But then
one day my mom said, you know, there's a fear
of flying course at the Boston Logan Airport. You might
want to look into it, and they paid for it.
And my fear flying was so bad that I also
had a fear of driving, and and once I got
close to the airport and saw the planes, I would panic.
So I couldn't go alone. So once a week my
dad drove me to the class and it was by
a very old school Boston therapist who smoked cigarettes in
(33:05):
the building because you could back in, drank coffee during class,
and was very irreverent and funny, and um my dad
loved the class. He allowed my dad to sit in
on it, so long story short, he gave us these
tapes that we had to listen to every night, and
basically what we were doing was a relaxation response body
scan and I loved it. So I lay on the
living room floor and listen to the tapes and my
(33:27):
parents would get on the floor and do it with me. Well,
there was no parenting class they took or be supportive.
But what I look back and realize is they didn't
act like I had anxiety and it was something weird
and different. So is there anything accidentally great about what
my parents did in the sense of, like, what do
(33:47):
you say to parents whose teenagers have anxiety? How can
they help them? Yeah? Man, I love that story because
I think what they did was they very indirectly like
made you feel like, Okay, this is just something that's
going on, and you know we're going to help you
through then be there for you and do whatever you
know we can do to to address it, and is
(34:07):
indirect right, And so I joke, I have a fifteen
year old son. We have the best conversations when we're
in the car and I'm driving and he's in the
passenger seat because there's no eye contact, right, And so
for teenagers that's like too much. They don't like eye contact.
So we can talk really freely when there's not that
pressure of eye contact. Um, So you know I think
(34:27):
with parents, yeah, like just being real, I mean, I
think one of the generation, one of the generational improvements
UM and parents is certainly an openness to talk about feelings,
to talk about depression and anxiety, to talk about scary
things and talk about that openly. Um. You know, and
I know that's not true across the board, but I
(34:47):
just think in terms of parents that I know, like
we are really good at validating feelings and talking about,
you know, how our kids they're doing, and really being
open to listening to what they're they're going and through.
You know, it sounds really basic, but I think a
lot of it is like show your teenagers that you
care and like that you're not shaming them or judging
(35:08):
them or telling them what to do. UM. I had
this incident with my twelve year old daughter. She was
talking about me and girls at school, and I of
course gotten to like mom bear mode. I was like, oh,
just you know, really making me mad that she's going
through this. And I said, do you maybe just to
listen or do you want me to like help you
figure this out? She goes, I just need you to listen.
So she went on and on just was I was like, Oh,
(35:30):
that's so hard and it's terrible, and I hate that
for you when you're experiencing that, and then at the end,
I was like, do you need any more support or
you know, how are you feeling? No, I'm feeling good.
I just needed to like let it out. And so parents,
I think, you know, if anything, we're over parenting or
like a little over evolved um right now on our
stage of of this parenting generation. And so like, our
(35:53):
kids don't need us to fix them, they just need
us to listen and take care and to be open
to hearing what they're thinking. That's great advice because you know,
I think that that's what a lot of couples therapy
advice is to right, Like sometimes your partner just wants
you to listen. And so it's like, oh, yeah, our kids,
our kids. I have no kids, but parenting and parents
and children, it's all relationship like any other. And from
(36:16):
our generation of how we were parents, and many of
us were either in validated. It's like, why are you
feeling like that? What's that about? Shame to feeling emotions,
shut down, told to get over it, like those types
of things. And so I think, you know, the other
end of that is just not not going to the fixing,
because that might be opposite of what we experienced but
going to just being open and listening and caring and
(36:40):
you know, figuring out with them and like collaborating what
I mean, Teens really want to be respected, you know,
because they're used to being told what to do. They're
used to be treated like they don't know anything, and
so for teens, it's really important for them to feel
like a sense of Okay, mom and dad, you know,
respect me, and they value my opinion and like how
to navigate that. And you know, sounds kind of simplistic,
(37:01):
but I think that's really like the foundation of being
able to help teens. Well, it does sound simplistic, but
I know that if I take that and really internalize
it. It It is hard sometimes to respect people younger than
you because you kind of a little bit you know
their future. You know where they're going to change. You
may not know what they're going to like or dislike
as they get older, where they're going to live, but
you know, in general, one day they'll look back and go, oh,
(37:24):
why did I worry so much about blah blah blah.
Like it's hard to kind of know a little bit
of the future and not try to live it for
them or speed them through it, you know, and so
is there anything that I didn't ask you that you
would love to to say to anyone listening, Um, teenagers
with anxiety, people anxious about the state of the world,
just anything that I didn't cover. Yeah, you know, I
(37:45):
think I think we do have to remember the perspective.
We will get through this and emotionally things will will
feel better because we're back to our our normal routines
and there's so much help with build block there. I
think that's the awesome part of the Internet. Terms of
obviously therapists, I mean telehealth, Um, we're still as a
practice all working from home because it's the safest thing
(38:07):
to do right now. So tell Health has improved access
to therapy. You know, people can just take an hour
of their day and be in their living room and
see their therapists through through Zoom. So you know, the
accessibility to therapy. Um, there's so many you know, great
self health books and different models of therapy that are
specific to people dealing with anxiety and depression. There's a
(38:30):
lot of resources out there, and it's okay, it's also
not know where to start and to know, like you know,
part of it's just kind of figuring out what what
fit's for that person, right. It's very individualized, and you
know that's part of like, well we talk about themes
and talk about you know, suggestions and things like that.
I never really know like what will really resonate if
one person will be very different based on each individual.
(38:58):
I hope you enjoyed my chat with Dr Jennifer Panning
and here's some takeaways some things to remember. Uncertainty and
unpredictability is a big component of anxiety. People with anxiety
mistakenly think if I can control my world, I will
have my ability to feel calm and feel like I
(39:18):
know what's coming up next. For people with anxiety, pandemic
and political situations increased anxiety and mental health statistically has
deteriorated across the board. Now that might sound upsetting, but
the one silver lining is that you are not alone.
(39:40):
Humans are designed for short term crisis, not long term
crisis like we've experienced since and the start of the pandemic.
So again, if you are asking yourself, well, why don't
I feel better? You're not alone and you're very normal.
An important part of young people differentiating from their fami
only is the ability to ask themselves the questions who
(40:02):
am I on my own and independently of my family
or of other expectations that people might have for me.
Grief seemingly out of nowhere may now come up for
students who didn't have a normal graduation experience in now.
If the world is stressing you out and you don't
have control over the world, ask yourself where do you
(40:26):
have control? Is it how you spend your time? What
media are you consuming, What connections are you making with
other people? Exercise can release the physiological and psychological stress
that we have. And it's a cliche because it's true.
Take a walk, being in nature, not looking at our
(40:47):
phone actually benefits our brain. Take a walk before you
sit around worrying what your diagnosis is. Get back to basics.
Are you sleeping enough, are you eating enough? How much
are you on your phone? All of that can affect
your fight or flight syndrome, And don't be afraid to
(41:10):
get a life. You're allowed to have some fun even
with everything going on. Nobody needs you to be seven vigilante,
constantly checking Twitter, making sure you know every single person
that's suffering in the world. You're allowed to take that
walk in nature, put your phone down, connect with your
friends and enjoy your life. Thanks for listening to Anxiety Bites.
(41:35):
We'll be back next week. I promise no politics next
week Anxiety Bites, but you're in control. For more podcasts
from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode. My guest today is
Dr Jennifer Panning. Now, before I tell you all about
Dr Panning, I guess I'll give you a little bit
of heads up about this episode. We talk about politics,
(00:30):
and in specific, we talk about Donald Trump. Now, I
want everyone who listens to this podcast to feel included.
This is certainly not a political podcast, but there is
an element to politics and how we consume media, about
politics being a cause for some of our anxiety, and
(00:56):
there was a phenomenon where a lot of people who
wouldn't label themselves as political started paying attention to politics
after Trump got elected, and they also found themselves experiencing anxiety.
So there is a connection and it's a conversation to
(01:16):
be had. However, if you are a Donald Trump supporter
and you don't want to sit around for the Trump bashing,
which truly, in my humble opinion, I don't think it is,
but I know we're really divided on this as a nation.
I still think you can get a lot out of
this episode by just thinking about again your relationship to
(01:38):
the media you consume, what do we do when politics
has caused us some anxiety. So that's just my little caveat,
because this episode is different than a lot of the
other ones because we do talk about the real world
and not that anything else I've talked about isn't the
real world, but you know what I'm saying. We also
(02:00):
do discuss the pandemic of I know it's still going on,
but the initial lockdown of and how it changed all
of our lives and how that caused and contributed to anxiety.
And we talk about Dr Panning's main career right now,
which is working with students, and so we do segue
(02:22):
into a conversation about what teenagers and young people are
facing right now that is unique to their generation, and
some of the things about being young that is not
unique to any generation, and how you can support the
young people in your life. So. Dr Jennifer Panning is
the founder and president of the Mindful Psychology Associates PC.
(02:43):
She's been an Illinois licensed clinical psychologist for sixteen years.
She received her doctors Psychology degree in clinical psychology from
Chicago School of Professional Psychology in two thousand three. She
completed trainings at Northwestern University Counseling and Psychological Services Center
and Northern Illinois University Counseling and Student Development Center, developing
(03:04):
her expertise in college student mental health. She has her
private practice in Evanston, Illinois, which she has had since
two thousand four. However, in she authored a chapter for
the New York Times bestselling book The Dangerous Case of
Donald Trump twenty seven Mental Health Experts Assess a President.
(03:25):
Her contribution was entitled Trump Anxiety Disorder, and from coining
that term, she was that led her to being interviewed
a lot, writing and speaking about the anxiety and fear
amidst the existing socio political climate. Dr Panning has since
been featured in New York Magazine, The Washington Post, Esquire,
(03:49):
CBS News, and many more. So again, I talked to
Dr Panning today about about all of this. How you know.
I have a theory that people who had anxiety before
Trump became president maybe didn't talk about it, maybe they
weren't even aware that they had it. But everyone who
was of the same political stripes bonding over the fact
(04:10):
that they didn't want this man to be president, it
felt more comfortable for them to say I have anxiety
about the president. Oh me too, whereas before they wouldn't say, well,
I have anxiety about how I feel I'm performing at
work or if I'm a good parent to my kids.
But it gave us a common language. Now that's my theory.
Doctor panting will enlighten me more on what she thinks
(04:30):
about that, because I've read her credentials out loud to you,
and I don't have any of those credentials. I'm just,
as I say, a dumb comedian. We talk about how
the pandemic caused us anxiety, and how a lot of
people are continuing to languish despite things being semi back
to normal or at least not in total lockdown here
in America, and what will post COVID life look like.
(04:52):
I do have to give you a heads up. We
did record this interview before the Delta variant was rampant
in America, So if we ever sound hopeful or maybe
even naive, like do they not know about the Delta variant,
we did not yet at the time of this recording.
And again we talked about her work with college students
and what it's like to be young and have anxiety today,
(05:15):
to not be able to draw on too much life
experience and say, oh, I've been in this situation before.
I'll be okay. Young people are at the beginning of
their life journey and they need adults to help give
them proper tools and to validate how they feel as well.
So I hope you enjoy my talk with Dr Panning
and we'll catch you on the flip side of the
(05:36):
interview with some takeaways that we got from Dr Panning.
Thank you so much for being here, Dr Panning. I
know we have the first same first name, Jennifer. Yeah, okay,
well I might, but I like to be respected. You
can call me Dr Kirkman. So I want to have
(06:00):
you on the show because you're you're really an expert
in two areas. I know that your real uh. I
was gonna see your real life as though you have
an alternate life. Your day to day practice. You are
working with college students. Yes, I own a I own
a group practice in Evanston, Illinois, which is one suburb
north of Chicago. The practice is called Mindful of Psychology
(06:23):
Associates and so um, I'm uh I had it. And
then we have a other therapist and we're hiring more therapists.
So I started in private practice in two thousand four
in Evanston after doing my post doctoral training at Norcosterian
University Counseling Center. So I've been working with college students
for almost twenty years now. M HM and you also
(06:45):
were part of a book that came out a couple
of years ago about President Trump and I. The name
of that book was Dangerous Case of Donald Trump. Mental
Health Experts assass the President. You coined the term Trump
anxiety disorder? Is that that's true right now? I had
read an article at the beginning of Trump's presidency, and
(07:06):
I have people in my life who I know that
they're anxious. I can see it. Um, there's no way
that I have anxiety and they don't, but there is
some denial. But when Trump became president, it was almost
actually a very freeing thing for them to start saying,
I'm anxious because Trump is dot dot dot right, give
them permission to talk about it openly. So when when
(07:28):
we talk about the many ways that Trump being president
and the media and social media around Trump gave people anxiety,
do you think though, that some people had anxiety in general,
perhaps even generalized anxiety disorder already, and this just gave
them a story to tell. Um, I don't think I
gave a story to tell, but I do think people
(07:49):
who had pre existing anxiety disorders or tendency towards anxiety,
we're certainly more impacted by Trump than than other people
because you think about anxiety disorder, like the uncertainty and
the unpredictability is a big component of anxiety, right, People
who like to be in control, you know, because they think,
if if I control my world, I will have you know,
(08:11):
my ability to feel calm and feel like I don't
know what's coming next. And Trump just blew all of
that up, right. I mean, that is the biggest I
think take away from his presidency was just the chaos
and the uncertainty and the you know, day to day
checking the news, what is he saying, what is he tweeting?
What outlandish thing is happening next? So I think that
(08:33):
people just really you know, who were anxious before picked
up on that and it was really um hard and
traumatic for them to make sense of that. I think,
you know, we see now like Biden is like a normal,
boring president, right, I mean, a typical president in that
we're not worrying, you know, what he's he's doing. On
a daily basis with all these sort of outlandish, chaotic
(08:56):
tweets and things like that, we kind of know he's
doing president central things, as did Obama, as did Bush,
I mean, all the you know, typical presidents beforehand. So
Trump was just a completely different um president than we've
ever had, and for for many of us, we struggled
and suffered with how like, how do we reconcile that
(09:17):
and how do we stay rounded with all this chaos
and uncertainty happening. Well, it's interesting that you say, you know,
we all say this, Biden's boring, thank god, But I
think it's funny because you know, um, as a doctor,
that boring is really not the opposite of chaos, right,
you know, it's more like content would be the opposite
(09:38):
of chaos. I mean, obviously, without getting too deep into
politics about it all, but if if we want to
look at it very basically, the man who was on
social media all day and who did have the you know,
key to the nuclear football, he's he's not there. So technically,
on one level, a lot has dissipated just because of that. Now,
obviously we have a whole other world with conspiracy theorists
(10:02):
going on and we still always have to fight for
a democracy no matter what. But the big head has
been cut off the hydros. So does that just mean
the anxiety goes away for people that just developed anxiety
because of Trump? And mean that can't be true, right,
Are they left with PTSD or they what do they do? Yeah,
(10:23):
I'm seeing a lot of people who are both grateful
for this. You know, let's say may be boring, but
traditional like a traditional president, right, a typical president American
president where he's working behind the scenes. There's you know,
we're seeing things like the vaccine rollouts. We're seeing all
these things happening, but we're not hearing him brag about
it or you know, talk about in outlantish ways. So
(10:45):
you know, I think we are coming down. I mean
the other thing that you know, obviously in terms of
we look at Trump's presidency back in the early um
days of it. In this past year, we have this
confluence of anxiety for producing factors. We had the pandemic,
we had the politicized part of the pandemic, we had
(11:06):
George Floyd's murder, the resulting protests. Um, they're just you know,
racial tension that was kind of out in the UH
in our direct we couldn't avoid it anymore. And then
you know, still going on with with the pandemic. UM
people were sick and all sorts of things that came together,
(11:28):
right and Trump is you know, obviously was in that mix.
But for people who struggle with anxiety and just people
in general, this past year has increased anxiety and mental
health has deteriorated across the board across America. We you know,
you can find statistics all over the place that talked
about how much depression anxiety symptoms have increased this past
(11:51):
year and how much UM in particular, you know, young
adults are are struggling, and so I think, you know,
I look at us, this just layered issue in terms
of there was so much going on and so much uncertainty.
You know, there were so many parts of this and
still the pandemic is not over. But we're still coming
down from all of this. And I don't think we're
(12:12):
going to see the psychological emotional impact until later this year,
possibly into twenty two. Because you think about it, you know,
we're we've been on survival mode because we've had to write,
and you think about like we I've talked a lot
about the phases of the pandemic, right the this is
kind of like a summer party and we're all in
its together a phase, and then the oh my gosh,
(12:34):
we're not this isn't going to be gone by summer,
and the you know, trying to juggle kids and remote
learning and all sorts of uncertainty in terms of both,
as you said, like the conspiracy theory still going on
and also really confusing information that was changing quite rapidly.
We're still figuring that out in terms of psychologically having
to survive that and having to be on a sort
(12:56):
of day to day adrenaline fueled trying to understand how
to how to be safe. But that's gonna take a
while to really come down from that because humans are
not designed for long term trauma and crisis. We're designed
for short term, you know crisis you think about, you know,
with um our fight or flight system that's designed for
(13:17):
like short term running away from a threat. As humans,
our brains and our bodies are not designed for long
term threat assessments. So we're exhausted. We're feeling just sort
of you know, kind of languishing and not feeling great
and that's part of this process of coming down from
such an intensely exhausting time in our history. It's interesting
(13:40):
you said languishing. I did read an article in the
New York Times recently that said we were languishing, And
you know, I never really understood what that word meant.
I confuse it with luxuriating and and languishing, you know,
as I just came to learn means, you know, that
feeling of why do I wake up in the morning
and just look at social media and I can't really
start my day and I'm just but it's not enjoyable,
It's not leisure or you know. Yeah, and it's interesting.
(14:02):
You know, I'm fully vaccinated, and I went and flew
home to see my family. I live in Californiay live
in Massachusetts, and I hadn't seen them in sixteen months.
It was so normal that I remember thinking it really
was like, alway, should have not them yesterday. Oh this
is normal. There was there was zero feeling that had
ever happened. Do you think that what I'm describing as
sort of feeling like it never happened is some kind
(14:22):
of trauma response. Absolutely, And in my practice what I'm
seeing a lot of is people's anxieties around going back
to pre COVID life, right, and what does that look like?
You know, will I still feel connected to my family
and my friends? Like I think that is definitely a
traumal response. And you know something I've been talking a
lot about with people, It's like, Okay, all your feelings
(14:45):
make total sense. You're you know, we're getting back to normal,
but we're not really normal. You know that. I mean
that just is where we're at right now in terms
of uh in our country. Yeah, things will feel normal,
And you know what I will often talk of up
with clients, It's like, Okay, remember that shift that we
had to make in March. Everything changed, people working from home,
(15:07):
people who were in school, We're going to zoom classes,
Like everything changed pretty drastically within that month. This re
entry into society is not going to feel as extreme
as that, because it will be kind of the sense
like what you're talking about, like having a through all this,
and then at some point we will feel a little
more settled and safe with celebrations like we will have
(15:31):
grief in terms of you know, remembering like wow, the
you know graduation last year, my song graduated from eighth
grade last year, and it was like a drive through
graduation and they did the best they could with you
do during COVID, but there were so many events that
people we were canceled, that missed out on. It had
to dramatically change. And so I think when we re
(15:52):
fall back into um society, things like you know, holidays
or weddings or graduations, our milestone birthdays, we may have
some grief coming up remembering like, wow, this feels so
good and we missed you know, a lot of this
and the year plus that we were kind of in
in lockdown. We'll be right back after this quick message
(16:17):
from one of our sponsors. So as you're working with
college students, can you just tell me about what what
they're experiencing and how it is kind of the same
as it ever was and maybe even a little bit
different for this generation. Yeah, so a little backstory. I mean,
(16:41):
college student mental health has been detererating for probably about
ten years. So we just kind of see year after
year that more students are struggling, that more reaching out
for you know, to their compling centers of the universities
and they can't keep up with the demand and therapists
often aren't able to keep up with the demand for services,
so they are able to google symptoms. But they also
(17:02):
talk openly about therapy. You know, they're like sharing their
tips from you know, their therapists with their friends. There
there's not a stigma about going to therapy is just
like really weird, you know, bad sign. I think they
see it as more healthy and a positive thing. So
that is you know, coud generation of being able to
see this as a healthy and I think their parents
(17:24):
often are more educated around you know, seeing therapy and
mental health services as a proactive way to get support. UM.
So you know, that is sort of the bigger picture
that the issue around college state mental health has vendeturiating
for years, year after year, UM, and the pandemic just
continue to kind of blow that apart. When you think
(17:44):
about college student development in terms of they're like psychological
emotional task during college is to separate from their families
of origin and develop their own identity, right to start
that process of separating from you know, what they were
in their family unit and figuring out who am I
on my own and independently you know, of my family
(18:04):
or of other expectations that people might have for me.
So when you think about that, I mean a lot
of college students, you know, they're living on their own.
They were, you know, doing their thing with their friends,
with their activities, and all that came to a halt.
I mean for many college students, you know, the dorms
shut down, they had to go back and live with
their parents all of a sudden, and their parents were home,
(18:26):
you know as well. Mostly so I mean just being
able to shift from being on your own with friends,
with your community and then being with parents, and you know,
for some it was just kind of you know, bummer, like,
I gotta be around my folks again. But for some people,
there are certainly more unsafe living environments, things that were
(18:47):
more traumatic in terms of family stress, and very unsafe
living environments. So there's always you know, levels of distress
of things like that. My mom's eight two and she
was saying, I loved a year in my life. I mean,
I could die any time. I'm maybe two and I'm
thinking one forty seven and I'm single, and I'm about
to go into menopause and I have more wrinkles now
and I should be out there dating. And you know,
(19:08):
everyone thinks their age is the worst to be stuck
at home and lose quote a year of their life.
But I mean, honestly, it probably is the FID who
is getting ready to go back to college or go
to college for the first time that that disappointment of
when do I start my life? I mean, at least
an example of my mom and me, we have a
whole life to look back on that we've lived. I
can't imagine how you know it. It seems like that
(19:32):
could be very almost too much to handle, Like how
would they even soothe themselves or feel a sense of hope?
That must rob them of hope. Yes, I mean, you know,
I work a lot of less university students, which is
where my my practice is located, and they had a
commencement last year, but it was like it was aversuum,
and this year they're doing something it's kind of like
(19:53):
attacked on to the graduation. So it's like they're getting
a little taste of it, but it's not the same,
you know, And a lot of people we saw last year,
a lot of people weren't able to say goodbye to professors,
to friends, to their community who are graduating, and they
had to just kind of deal with that process in
a very different way than the traditional like closure of
(20:15):
you know, having celebrations having left, you know, gatherings of
friends being able to have a celebration of accomplishments, but
like a goodbye to these people in these communities that
they've been been in for four years. So I think
there was some you know, loss and grief, and I
anticipate that that will continue to come up for certain
people with seeing perhaps younger friends graduate and just missing
(20:38):
but that they didn't have that experience. How do you handle?
You know? So for me, growing up with anxiety my
whole life. So I'm in college, I have anxiety. I'm
having panic attacks. My teachers don't know it of some
of them accused me of being on drugs because it
was acting so weird. But at the end of the day,
once I figured out what anxiety was for me, um,
it was the very classic like not understanding that my
(21:01):
fight or flight was kicking in and for a lot
of my anxiety was phobia. Is so everything I learned
about my anxiety was, hey, you know what, everything I've
anxiety about isn't really real, you know, um, And that
was a relief. Unfortunately, Uh, you know, I had anxiety
as a kid, I grew up during the eighties. I
thought we were going to get nuked every five minutes,
you know. So there was that as well, and that
(21:23):
was very real, and that dissipated once you know, we
sort of didn't nuke anyone or get to But then
my anxiety became more phobic. But how do you deal
and how what do you say to students who are
anxious about very real things? I mean, the world climate
change is worse now than it was when I was
in college. You know, Um, there there are actual terrible things.
(21:47):
You can't tell them it's fight or flight or so,
so how do you help them? Right? It'd be invalidating
to tell somebody, oh, this is irrational, right because there
their fears and their anxieties around the pandemic, around being isolated,
around this job market, climate curses, um, racial injustice. Everything
is legit and real and Trump, you know, in terms
(22:10):
of what we went through with with that presidency. So
I think when what I come down to with um,
those situations, it's like, Okay, where do you have control? Right?
Because a lot of anxiety is when we feel out
of control, um, And so you know, what, what do
you have control? Of birds. You know you're yourself is
that you know your um, your abilities to how you
(22:32):
spend your time, how what media you consume, UM, connections
that you make with other people, relationships all that. So
being able to help people understand, you know and validate like, yeah,
it's really scary too. You know, think about the world, um,
the state of the world and the real issues that
we're facing. And if you stay in that place too long,
(22:54):
you're probably gonna be just like curled up in a ball,
uh and unable to function because it's just and you
know that emotional reasoning and part of the brain will
just start going off and people will start feeling just
a lot of anxiety, a lot of stress, and that's
not going to be really that helpful for that person.
So in that way, it's like, you know, talking about
(23:15):
things that they have control over and also ways to
cope with that stress. I mean, you know, exercise, like
being able to release some of that physiological stress is
so important, and you know, I kind of I sometimes
she use my class like, I know, your therapist is
telling you to exercise, like you know that's so difficult,
(23:36):
and you know there's there's physiological reasons why that is
helpful because we need to be able to release you know,
that emotion and that physiological stress being outside, you know,
being able to be in nature. There's so many studies
around like the benefits of being around green trees and
how that relaxes are our brains because we're able to
(23:57):
have there's patterns of nature that we don't have, you know,
in our computer screens and some of the basics. You know,
coming back to those basics, are people sleeping enough, are
they eating enough? How much are they using on their smartphone?
Because we know, you know, logically how much that can
be damaging because we read something that is a real
(24:17):
threat um but we can unfortunately activate our finer flight
system and all of a sudden we're worrying about the
world again. And so it's not naive to be able
to protect ourselves, to be able to have some sense
of calm and connection. Well, you know, it's interesting, Uh
it sounds like, I mean, we all know what people
can do for anxiety, right, breathing exercises and thoughts stopping
(24:39):
and all that therapy stuff, But it sounds like, honestly,
underneath it all, what you're saying is like you're not
saying it like this, but get a life, And I
mean that in the best, like, have a big life,
you know. And I do think they're I think social
media has exacerbated this, this sense of if we're not
aware every second of how terrible everything is, not a
(25:00):
good enough citizen, We're not a good enough liberal, We're
not a good enough whatever. And when I've talked to
younger people, a lot of them have accused me of
being a little more chill in my forties. Oh, you
must be rich, you must have everything I'll figured out,
And I'm like, no, no, Now, I'm actually just in
acceptance of the uncertainty, you know. Um, and I cannot
(25:20):
we cannot come together on the two generations. I cannot
convince them that it's just as scary at forty seven
to not know what's going on as it is at seventeen.
But I think the one thing that really I have
learned getting older is that you know, it's it's it's everything.
You said, what do I have control over? And I
don't need to be flippant, but I have a big
(25:42):
inner life as well, you know, a spiritual life, a
sense that I'm not just this material world. I'm not
just a citizen of America. I'm also a soul and
I like to dance and sing you know around my
apartment of course, but you know things like that where
it's like it doesn't seem important, but it is kind
to the point of life, you know. And and uh,
(26:03):
I think these generations are a little bit further from
that than mine was. You know, maybe because I'm old
enough touch I I worry are they having fun or
young people having fun? You know, that's an interesting point.
I was talking about this yesterday actually, So we know,
like the young people are not taking as many risks
as our generation. And there's some good things about that, right,
(26:25):
They're having less sex, they're having pure relationship dating relationships,
they're not like driving as early, they're not experimenting as
much with substances. Like there's some good things about all
of that, right, in terms of being cautious, thoughtful, et cetera.
But then there's also some learning that they miss ada, right,
I mean, you know, think about like dating normally, you know,
(26:47):
people go through some dating experiences that aren't so great
because then they learn about who they are and what
they're looking for in a partner, and that's very helpful information.
So I see some of the young adults and I think,
you know, a pendulum past plug. I'm, you know, forty six,
and I remember my parents drapping me off of college
like hey, good luck, and I'll talk to you in
(27:08):
a week. Right, That's was parenting back then. It was
very kind of hands off and a little distant. And
now the pendulum is swung way in the extreme of
the other way. And sometimes I worry about the young
adults not having built up some of those skills to
cope with like daily, you know, stressors on their own volition.
You know, they're they're able to tax parents or other
(27:31):
people right away if they're feeling some feelings instead of
maybe just sitting with those feelings and kind of thinking
what do I want to do with this? You know, yeah,
sitting with feelings. You know, it's interesting. I found a
bunch of letters, big box of letters that my friends
and I had sent each other in college. You know,
my friends and I weren't were different colleges, and we
would write letters. And you know, there was obviously no internet,
(27:56):
no cell phones, and kids out there listening. If your
friend was in college in Colorado when you were in Boston.
That was a long distance call. Nobody had that money.
So your letters, people were sitting down writing with pen
and paper, which I know studies have shown gets you
connected to your feelings, calms calms you down. So these
little things that we I wasn't sitting there going, oh,
(28:17):
I'm hoping my nervous system. But we naturally did things
every day that actually destressed and calmed our nervous systems
and made us sit with our feelings. It takes an
hour to write a long letter, you know, Um, it
takes five seconds to send an emoji on a text.
And I again, anyone listening, I know, I sound like
the old lady, but I'm I'm doing it too. Now.
I don't write letters anymore. I send a smiley face
(28:38):
like I'm tent. We can't like get rid of technology
and give everyone a pen. But in a weird way,
it's like it's hard for them to I think believe
when you say exercise or journal, because that wasn't a
part of life every day. You know, it seems like
just some crap someone's making up. Yeah, And you know,
(28:59):
we we know we need to wonder and we need
to be able to have time just to like be creative, right,
and just like I like to put around my house
right on, like on a Saturday morning, just have my
coffee and and that's when I think about things and
result things and you know, think about ideas and such,
and so I think, you know, those simple things are
(29:19):
not always um encourage because we do have so much
of that access to technology. Uh that's immediate and always there.
It's chronic. And so yeah, I think this generation of
being able to be be outside, take a walk, you know,
being able to not have their phones connected to them
on seven. I have a twelve and a fifteen year
(29:42):
old and you know, well, I was like, all right,
we're doing an activity today. That activity is going to
the forest preserve and taking a walk with her dog.
Basic stuff because you know, during co baby couldn't do
much more than that. But you know, the rules were
like no phones, no technology. We were just gonna hang
out and it is what we could see around us,
and that was it, right, And I think there is
(30:04):
something really important about that. That's when our brain relaxes
and kind of let's go a little bit and we
notice things that are interesting. You know, it's like, yeah,
like look at that really huge tree and not beautiful.
You know those leaves that look like they've been there
for thousands of years? How long has that tree been there?
(30:25):
You know, just things that we can really immerse ourself in.
That's great too when you mentioned like an old tree,
you know, even something that gives you the sense of Okay,
so Earth has been here longer than me, probably be
here long after me. I'm just in this universe. I
know some people don't like that, but for me, the
smaller I can think of myself is very comforting, like
I don't have to solve the world's problems. In ten years,
(30:47):
we will be through this completely. There might be something
else going on, but we will be able to look
in the rear very mirror at this time in the
past and say like, oh, this is what I remember,
these are the things I took from that. And we'll
also probably honestly minimize some of the stress and the
anxiety look back at I don't know, World War two
or you know different very very stressful times in our
(31:10):
country's history. I think people have had to minimize how
really stressful and awful it was just living through that. Absolutely,
anxiety bites will be right back after a quick little
message from one of our sponsors. You know, I have
(31:36):
a quick story for you about my parents, which is
going to lead me to a question about parenting. And
then I have one last question for you know, let
you go. Thank you for taking so much time with
me today. Um So, when I was nineteen and in college,
my fear flying was out of control. I had only
flown about once a year. Every year with my parents,
we fly from Lost into Florida go to Disney World.
(31:56):
So I'd only flown about five times, ten times to
you count that it's around trip. And I had panic
attacks on plane since I was eight, and at one point,
at age fourteen, I said, the anxiety from the flight
is not worth the one week of fun in Disney World,
and I'm not flying anymore. My parents said okay, and
we didn't go. And I got to college and I
didn't do any of the trips abroad that were offered
(32:18):
through my school because I was afraid to fly. And
you know, my parents are they're not boomers, they're older,
they're silent generation. So my parents attitude, honestly was more
like I don't know, I don't know, I don't have
no advice about anything. I don't have any expectations. I
don't have any So in a way, I think that
was helpful because they also had no judgment, if that
makes sense. They just accept it for what it was. Yeah,
(32:41):
but they didn't try to fix our help But then
one day my mom said, you know, there's a fear
of flying course at the Boston Logan Airport. You might
want to look into it, and they paid for it.
And my fear flying was so bad that I also
had a fear of driving, and and once I got
close to the airport and saw the planes, I would panic.
So I couldn't go alone. So once a week my
dad drove me to the class and it was by
a very old school Boston therapist who smoked cigarettes in
(33:05):
the building because you could back in, drank coffee during class,
and was very irreverent and funny, and um my dad
loved the class. He allowed my dad to sit in
on it, so long story short, he gave us these
tapes that we had to listen to every night, and
basically what we were doing was a relaxation response body
scan and I loved it. So I lay on the
living room floor and listen to the tapes and my
(33:27):
parents would get on the floor and do it with me. Well,
there was no parenting class they took or be supportive.
But what I look back and realize is they didn't
act like I had anxiety and it was something weird
and different. So is there anything accidentally great about what
my parents did in the sense of, like, what do
(33:47):
you say to parents whose teenagers have anxiety? How can
they help them? Yeah? Man, I love that story because
I think what they did was they very indirectly like
made you feel like, Okay, this is just something that's
going on, and you know we're going to help you
through then be there for you and do whatever you
know we can do to to address it, and is
(34:07):
indirect right, And so I joke, I have a fifteen
year old son. We have the best conversations when we're
in the car and I'm driving and he's in the
passenger seat because there's no eye contact, right, And so
for teenagers that's like too much. They don't like eye contact.
So we can talk really freely when there's not that
pressure of eye contact. Um, So you know I think
(34:27):
with parents, yeah, like just being real, I mean, I
think one of the generation, one of the generational improvements
UM and parents is certainly an openness to talk about feelings,
to talk about depression and anxiety, to talk about scary
things and talk about that openly. Um. You know, and
I know that's not true across the board, but I
(34:47):
just think in terms of parents that I know, like
we are really good at validating feelings and talking about,
you know, how our kids they're doing, and really being
open to listening to what they're they're going and through.
You know, it sounds really basic, but I think a
lot of it is like show your teenagers that you
care and like that you're not shaming them or judging
(35:08):
them or telling them what to do. UM. I had
this incident with my twelve year old daughter. She was
talking about me and girls at school, and I of
course gotten to like mom bear mode. I was like, oh,
just you know, really making me mad that she's going
through this. And I said, do you maybe just to
listen or do you want me to like help you
figure this out? She goes, I just need you to listen.
So she went on and on just was I was like, Oh,
(35:30):
that's so hard and it's terrible, and I hate that
for you when you're experiencing that, and then at the end,
I was like, do you need any more support or
you know, how are you feeling? No, I'm feeling good.
I just needed to like let it out. And so parents,
I think, you know, if anything, we're over parenting or
like a little over evolved um right now on our
stage of of this parenting generation. And so like, our
(35:53):
kids don't need us to fix them, they just need
us to listen and take care and to be open
to hearing what they're thinking. That's great advice because you know,
I think that that's what a lot of couples therapy
advice is to right, Like sometimes your partner just wants
you to listen. And so it's like, oh, yeah, our kids,
our kids. I have no kids, but parenting and parents
and children, it's all relationship like any other. And from
(36:16):
our generation of how we were parents, and many of
us were either in validated. It's like, why are you
feeling like that? What's that about? Shame to feeling emotions,
shut down, told to get over it, like those types
of things. And so I think, you know, the other
end of that is just not not going to the fixing,
because that might be opposite of what we experienced but
going to just being open and listening and caring and
(36:40):
you know, figuring out with them and like collaborating what
I mean, Teens really want to be respected, you know,
because they're used to being told what to do. They're
used to be treated like they don't know anything, and
so for teens, it's really important for them to feel
like a sense of Okay, mom and dad, you know,
respect me, and they value my opinion and like how
to navigate that. And you know, sounds kind of simplistic,
(37:01):
but I think that's really like the foundation of being
able to help teens. Well, it does sound simplistic, but
I know that if I take that and really internalize
it. It It is hard sometimes to respect people younger than
you because you kind of a little bit you know
their future. You know where they're going to change. You
may not know what they're going to like or dislike
as they get older, where they're going to live, but
you know, in general, one day they'll look back and go, oh,
(37:24):
why did I worry so much about blah blah blah.
Like it's hard to kind of know a little bit
of the future and not try to live it for
them or speed them through it, you know, and so
is there anything that I didn't ask you that you
would love to to say to anyone listening, Um, teenagers
with anxiety, people anxious about the state of the world,
just anything that I didn't cover. Yeah, you know, I
(37:45):
think I think we do have to remember the perspective.
We will get through this and emotionally things will will
feel better because we're back to our our normal routines
and there's so much help with build block there. I
think that's the awesome part of the Internet. Terms of
obviously therapists, I mean telehealth, Um, we're still as a
practice all working from home because it's the safest thing
(38:07):
to do right now. So tell Health has improved access
to therapy. You know, people can just take an hour
of their day and be in their living room and
see their therapists through through Zoom. So you know, the
accessibility to therapy. Um, there's so many you know, great
self health books and different models of therapy that are
specific to people dealing with anxiety and depression. There's a
(38:30):
lot of resources out there, and it's okay, it's also
not know where to start and to know, like you know,
part of it's just kind of figuring out what what
fit's for that person, right. It's very individualized, and you
know that's part of like, well we talk about themes
and talk about you know, suggestions and things like that.
I never really know like what will really resonate if
one person will be very different based on each individual.
(38:58):
I hope you enjoyed my chat with Dr Jennifer Panning
and here's some takeaways some things to remember. Uncertainty and
unpredictability is a big component of anxiety. People with anxiety
mistakenly think if I can control my world, I will
have my ability to feel calm and feel like I
(39:18):
know what's coming up next. For people with anxiety, pandemic
and political situations increased anxiety and mental health statistically has
deteriorated across the board. Now that might sound upsetting, but
the one silver lining is that you are not alone.
(39:40):
Humans are designed for short term crisis, not long term
crisis like we've experienced since and the start of the pandemic.
So again, if you are asking yourself, well, why don't
I feel better? You're not alone and you're very normal.
An important part of young people differentiating from their fami
only is the ability to ask themselves the questions who
(40:02):
am I on my own and independently of my family
or of other expectations that people might have for me.
Grief seemingly out of nowhere may now come up for
students who didn't have a normal graduation experience in now.
If the world is stressing you out and you don't
have control over the world, ask yourself where do you
(40:26):
have control? Is it how you spend your time? What
media are you consuming, What connections are you making with
other people? Exercise can release the physiological and psychological stress
that we have. And it's a cliche because it's true.
Take a walk, being in nature, not looking at our
(40:47):
phone actually benefits our brain. Take a walk before you
sit around worrying what your diagnosis is. Get back to basics.
Are you sleeping enough, are you eating enough? How much
are you on your phone? All of that can affect
your fight or flight syndrome, And don't be afraid to
(41:10):
get a life. You're allowed to have some fun even
with everything going on. Nobody needs you to be seven vigilante,
constantly checking Twitter, making sure you know every single person
that's suffering in the world. You're allowed to take that
walk in nature, put your phone down, connect with your
friends and enjoy your life. Thanks for listening to Anxiety Bites.
(41:35):
We'll be back next week. I promise no politics next
week Anxiety Bites, but you're in control. For more podcasts
from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.