Holistic Healing

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I
am your host Jen Kirkman. Today I am chatting with
Alison Sepinara. She's an anxiety healer, a licensed professional counselor,
Certified Specialist one and two school counselor. And I'll get

(00:32):
into everything that she and I talked about in just
a moment. And by the way, she is teaching a
seven days of Anxiety Healing master class for all of
you who would love to take a class for a week.
It's online and heal your anxiety. Everybody talks about getting

(00:53):
a beach body for the summer. Never mind, now, why
don't you get a beach nervous system. That's that's not
a thing. But um well, I'll just give you the
info right now so you will get off if you
put anxiety bites all smushed together, no spaces between anxiety
and bites, all upper case, and I'll put it in

(01:15):
the show notes exactly how you should do it. So
there's a link down there. And again you're gonna get
off of her Anxiety Healing master Class which begins on
June and that is just for my listeners. Before I
get to that, I probably won't be doing another all
listener email episode because we just have so many wonderful

(01:39):
guests coming up and we're pretty booked up. So season
one ends um second week of August, and our our
calendar is packed until then. So I thought I would
just read some emails at the beginning of every episode,
and I have to tell you the A d h

(02:00):
D episode, I got such an overwhelming number of emails.
I think only second to the O c D episode
where people we're contacting me just from everywhere and saying
that they felt so much better hearing that the number one,

(02:22):
you know, most popular, the most normal symptom of O
c D are these unwanted thoughts about harming others, and
it just it just helped so many people. But today
I will read you the emails from the fellow A
d h D rars out there, and I will tell
you this, that episode meant so much to me because

(02:44):
it really took I hate saying this because it's such
a my own research, and again I don't say that
about other things, but it did take my own research,
not not. It's not you know when people say I
did my own research about the vaccine. I'm not talking
about I'll her native research to research that's out there.
I'm talking about the people that I was working with.

(03:05):
My therapist had no information on a d h D,
and I just felt like I was spinning my wheels.
And I pardoned ways with my therapist this year. And
and honestly, if it was from everything I've learned on
this podcast, in the sense that I realized that there
are certain specialties I need to find a therapist that,

(03:28):
you know, who deals more with certain things. There's certain things.
Do I actually need a therapist, you just need more
tools over here or whatnot? I mean, I've been with
my therapist over fifteen years agoing once a week, So
it's like, you know, I don't recommend everyone to jump
up and leave their therapist, but this, this was something
I've been thinking about for about a year, but it
really became crystal clear when I realized I think she's
misdiagnosed by a d h D as other things. And

(03:48):
then of course I have a psychiatrist who you know,
prescribes medication and who yes, says I have a d
h D. And and but it's it's just from. He
doesn't have it himself, and so he's not going to
know every single thing or how it affects women as
opposed to you know, and so he doesn't specialize in

(04:09):
a d h D. So sometimes I teach him things
from what I've read from other a d h D
experts or whatnot. But just the things I've been reading
about a d h D all year have really put
into perspective my entire life. Moments in my entire life
where I thought, what was that about? What was that reaction?
What was this? And it's actually very easy to forgive

(04:31):
myself because I just had this kind of thing that
it felt like something all over was wrong with me,
and in a way it was. I had this, you know,
neural neurodevelopmental disorder that does touch on a lot of
the executive functions of the brain that that have to

(04:52):
do with emotion, or maybe you're bad with money, or
maybe this or that. But when it's all happening at once,
it's hard when someone said as oh, you're acting like
this maybe of quote dependency or maybe of this, and
you're like, yeah, but what of all the other things?
And you start to think about just like straight up
crazy which I know is not a term we like
to use, but in the privacy of our own heads,

(05:14):
I do think we worry about that whatever we think
crazy means, and again like to have something that impedes
your executive functions. It doesn't make you a lost cause,
it doesn't make you a hopeless case, and it certainly
doesn't make you quote crazy. It just means now you've
an answer this one. And it all comes down to
the same thing self soothing. And for me, it's changing

(05:37):
my mind about what will make me feel better. I'm
still stuck in the loop a lot of times that
getting the thirty five item to do list done in
an unreasonable amount of time, meaning a short amount of
time will is the only thing that will make me
feel better. When everything is off my plate, I can
my life is over there. My life is just beyond
the to do list. And it really, honestly, you know,

(06:00):
we can sit in therapy sessions and have someone say
do you have intimacy issues, and it's like, I don't.
I can't even relate to what you're saying. And I'm
not being defensive, I just no, I'm trying to explain
that I can't get past this wall in front of me,
which is there is no relief until all thirty five
things are done on this list. Do I have to

(06:21):
pull an all nighter and then my life begins the
next day? Then I'll have time to call friends back,
maybe go on a date, maybe a grocery shop, and
make dinner for myself. And it's like, in times of
uncertainty and stress, that can be louder for me, this
notion that my life is on the other end of
the to do list. I actually had a really good

(06:42):
handle on it during the lockdown. I didn't have to
worry about an income, I had some writing jobs that
I was doing remotely, and I just had this realization that,
oh wow, I spent a lot of my time pre
law down in this notion that life begins after the

(07:03):
to do list, and then, as you know, that to
do list never ends. And I had a real concrete
example of you know, how many nights that I wish
I'd gone out and met that friend, or you know,
if I'm writing a script or something, you know, I
wish I'd taken a two hour coffee break to see
a friend. Because if you're a writer, you don't actually
write nine to six you know, eight am to eight pm.
You procrastinating and take breaks, but I get in this

(07:23):
zone where I can't even engage with other people. And
and so I had this really great balance, you know,
right after the vaccine came out and I was fascinated
and I felt like I was getting back to things,
and I really from having spent a year alone, I
felt this real sense of I'm never again going to
let the overwhelm trick me into thinking I can't do X,

(07:46):
Y and Z until I finished this other stuff. And
it worked for a while, but again that was a
perspective that's temporary because we get used to whatever we're in.
So back to life. I fell back into the way
I used to do life. And now that I can
look at it as this a d h D thing,

(08:08):
which is like, look, I can keep doing it this
way and insisting that there's a day when this to
do list ends or I can sell now. When you
try to take that to do list away from me,
say Jen, you're gonna go to bed right now, or
you're going to watch the TV and you're not going
to get this thing done tonight, and it's not even
due to marrows, so you don't need to do it tomorrow,
I know, But so what feeling are you trying to accomplish?

(08:30):
And it's like, I'm trying to accomplish a feeling that
everything is done so that it's not in the back
of my head when I'm trying to enjoy my life.
And it's like, well, then your job, Jen is to
try to enjoy your life knowing you've got this thing
to write that you're going to perform next month, knowing
that you have to finish this script you're ready, you know.

(08:50):
It's like I I have to relearn to to integrate better,
and I had done it before, and so I noticed
that it's that a d h D thing when I
have trouble self soothing around it. If you try to
tell me you have to take a break and go
see a friend for an hour, knowing you have things
to do when you get home, that actually disturbs me physically.

(09:14):
I start to feel uncomfortable. And I know that intellectually
I don't even agree with the person that doesn't want
to take the break. I'm I'm gonna take a break person.
I'd rather never work again, to be honest. But it's
like it doesn't matter where it comes from it is
it would seem too simple for a therapist. It's it's like,

(09:35):
I know they get excited when things seem to connect,
but it's not. And how But in your child, did
you do have friendships? Like I'm a totally social person.
I don't have intimacy issues. I I literally have this
bizarre overwhelm right now, and I am convinced that doing
the same thing over and over is going to get
me the result I want, even though it's not the

(09:55):
definition of insanity. Right So I have to force myself
to do things differently, and it can be putting less
things on the to do list for me. Recently, I
started bullet journaling, which is the thing I never thought
I would do, but it helps my a d h D.
And I can get into that another time. But so,
just learning everything I've learned this year has changed my perspective.

(10:19):
It's helped me actually help myself, and it's showed me
what types of therapy are working for me right now
and what types aren't. Anyway, I feel like all of
you who wrote to me, who know that you have
a d h D or weren't sure what you had,
you had a similar realization just by listening to the episode,
and it makes me really happy. Again. I'm not here

(10:40):
to diagnose anyone. I just want people to listen and
if they hear something they like. We're never going to
solve any anxiety issue in any one episode, but I'm
hoping that you take the bread crumbs from an episode
and keep learning for yourself or bring it to your
therapist or whatever. So I'm just glad that it got
a lot of your minds going. So I'm going to

(11:01):
read these, Hi, jan First of all, I want to
acknowledge what a wonderful person you are. Okay I didn't.
I'm not trying to compliment myself, Okay, I'm just fast forward.
What a great episode. I learned so much and it stuck.
I didn't even take my normally obsessive notes. The funny
thing is, when I saw the title of this week's podcast,

(11:23):
I was thinking that maybe I should skip this episode
because I didn't think it would be that much of
an interest to me regarding the A d h D.
But because I have a sister that had it as
a child, I thought maybe I'll be able to learn
something about her. So I was only kind of listening
to it at first. However, halfway into it, I was like, WHOA,
that's me. Well that's me as well, that's totally me,
and it kept happening. I ended up skipping the nap

(11:46):
I was planning and finished the podcast. I happened to
have counseling this afternoon, so I talked to my counselor
about looking into diagnosis. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I think I finally found what's going on with my
head and to boot I turned forty and my coping
mechanisms have all gone to pot. So I am grateful
to have learned that I am right on time coming
to this realization. I love the surf exercise. I am

(12:09):
in DBT Dialectical behavioral Therapy, and it reminds me of
the stop skill, a skill I have found a lot
of value in. Stop stands for stop, take a step back, observe,
proceed mindfully. Oh I like that, but it's not as poignant,
doesn't quite scratch the itch. Kristen Carter has showed how

(12:29):
to process an emotion, something I have longed for. A
lot of people say you have to feel it and
not stuff it, and then they don't really give you
a map. This feels like she's given me directions to
emotional freedom. Now if I could remember the task long
enough to complete it. Ha ha. I really appreciate what
you were doing in this world. Who knew an episode
of drunk History would lead me to finding you doing

(12:51):
this wonderful work. Um. I won't say her name because
she didn't say if I could. That makes me so
I love. I love that someone sees the title of
an episodes, doesn't that's not for me, and it turns
out it is. I do that all the time with stuff. Hello, Jen,
I'm an a d H D er. I feel like

(13:12):
I got a double birthday gift from me. One. I
woke up to a new episode of anxiety bites, so
that started my day off great. Two And most importantly,
I identified with most of the points Kristen and you discussed.
Everything I need to do is all of the utmost importance.
I shut down if I can't get things done to perfection.
And I can remember a random day in elementary school

(13:32):
with crystal clarity, yet can't remember to pick up everything
I went to the store for. Fortunately, I have an
appointment with my therapist next week and I'm going to
bring this up to her and see what she has
to say. Thank you for putting this podcast out. Love
all the good you're doing Again. I won't say his
name because he didn't indicate if I could. Um and

(13:52):
my last one here, I just picked three, but there
are so many, Dear Jen. Listening to the episode with
Kristen Carter almost made me I on the train traveling home,
listening to the executive functions and the explanation of all
tasks being at the volume resonated so deeply that it
actually explains my inability to be able to focus on

(14:14):
any one task when I have multiple pressing deadlines. Writing
all the lists in the world never helps, just overwhelms
to the point I can be so stressed and anxious
that absolutely nothing gets done because I don't know where
to start. It has also been a stalling point in
progressing further in my career. Although listening to the podcast
has given names to my anxiety, this episode resonates so

(14:37):
deeply that I have been on the fence about asking
my doctor about a referral, but now the appointment is
made to get started on a resolution, which is my
at times crippling social anxiety will also get a look in,
but that's another story. Thank you for the podcast, love
all that you do. Well. It's interesting you say that.
My guest today, Alison stepan Are, has a lot of

(14:59):
wisdom about social anxiety. She is someone that has suffered
social anxiety herself. We actually didn't talk about it a
lot on this podcast, and I know that it's a
subject I've danced around with a few guests here and there,
never totally went deep, deep into it. But again I
highly recommend her seven day Mental Health master class. It
will guide you towards a life of anxiety relief in

(15:20):
her peace and mental health recovery. Seven days is all
it takes to start your healing journey, and there's no
better time than right now to work on your mental health. Remember,
you are in control of your life. You deserve to
give yourself a chance to get better and be better
off if you use the code anxiety bites all caps

(15:42):
words mushed together in the show notes and again today
my guest Alison stepan Are. What I love about her
book is that it's almost like you just want to
mark up every page. It's everything you would ever need
if you are into not just cognitive behavioral therapy as

(16:05):
something that helps your anxiety. But if you're into I
think spiritual is too spiritual over word to use. But
if you're into more using your creativity, it's not manifesting
like the toxic positivity episode we had a little while ago.
It's not it's not that kind of thing. It's but
it's visualization, which is really good for your brain and
really good as a form of a meditation in a

(16:30):
way to calm yourself down. But to visualize what you
want without getting focused on you must achieve the results
or you're some being a loser, but just feeling how
it feels in your body two figure out what you
even want. We might have this idea of what we want,
but if we actually sat down and did a visualization
exercise of what what what would that look like? And
what would I be doing? Sometimes you realize I don't

(16:52):
even really want this, or I do want this, and oh,
I'm getting excited about thinking when I think about it
this way instead of when I just let it roll
around in my head without the construct of a visual
visualization exercise. I start to say negative self talk. So
but I really like about her book, The Anxiety Healer's
Guide Coping Strategies and mindful techniques to calm the mind

(17:12):
and body is It is a just jam packed, but
it's a small book. Perfect book to take on a plane,
perfect book to take on a car trip. Keep it
in your bag, your purse, whatever, you can always flip
through and just find one thing that you can do
in that moment, and it's not just your typical take

(17:32):
a deep breath. I mean that's in there too, and
breathing is important. I'll tell you, I'll tell you something
about our episode. I wanted to make a vision board,
and her book talks about making vision boards, and she
and I have a like a mini therapy session about it.
I also wanted to bring up my resistance to making
a vision board with her so she could give me

(17:53):
a little therapy, so that you could all hear what
a therapy session a lot of times sounds like. In
case you still are in the dark about it and
you're thinking, I don't know if that's for me, or
did they go too deep, or how is it helpful?
I think our ten minute talk about vision boards could
then you could be a nice fly on the wall
in that moment um. I'm gonna be totally honest. I

(18:15):
recorded the outrode in this episode a few weeks ago,
and I don't remember if I talked about what I
ended up doing about the vision board, I may have
said I started it, but but either way, I'm recording
this now, just a few days before the episode comes out,
and I finished my vision board. So you're getting a spoiler,

(18:39):
but I think that's okay. But what I noticed was
everything on the board is everything I already have or
I'm capable of having, because it's something I've had before.
It's just I want more and bigger, and and that's
not bad. I'm not putting myself down by saying it
that way. You know. I hum things on there about
performing and specific places and spaces, and I'm working towards that.

(19:03):
There hasn't been any struggles to get there. It's just
I'm at the beginning of the journey, so I'm hoping
it leads to these certain performance spaces there on my
vision board, I'm working on a one woman show. I've
I've kind of changed careers, left stand up commenting one
more towards doing it this way. Um, you know, I
have on there that I'm a writer who sells TV shows.
What I have done that before I am a writer.

(19:24):
But I just what I mean is I want to
keep doing that. I want to stay in my career
and not have it end. Okay, let's hope. You know. Um,
I want to live in New York. I want to
live in l A. I have both of those on there.
I do live in both, but I'm renting apartments. And
you know, it's like I want everything that I already have,
but just a little more financial security, a little more stability,

(19:47):
and a little more ownership of things, and then a
lot of travel, which there's really nothing stopping me right
now except I don't have time due to all my
jobs I need to work. It's a little expensive right
now to actually think of traveling. And then I'm a
little just kind of kind of bummed out about COVID,
like just don't feel like traveling. But all of these
things are very achievable. And what I noticed was I'm

(20:10):
already mostly living the life I want to live, and
the only thing is getting in the way are really big,
big things way out of my control. Because that before
COVID or just like yeah, I mean, before I have
this beautiful, brand new apartment in New York or home
in Los Angeles. I've got to earn more money, and
I've got to save, and I've got to hopefully someday

(20:31):
be financially in a place where I can, you know,
buy these dream homes that I may never achieve. But
there are millions of dollars, so it's fine if not,
you know. But I'm basically mostly living the life I want.
The vision board is not something that I look at
and think, well, I could never have any of this.
It really showed me that I'm already there in a way.

(20:52):
I just want more of what I have, and honestly,
I just want to guarantee that none of it will end.
So I thought that was very interesting. It made me,
I don't know what it made me feel. They definitely
didn't make me feel anything bad. I didn't think, oh,
you're you know, you don't have any dreams left, You're
just so boring. I thought the opposite. I was, I'm

(21:14):
really proud of myself, but I still have a ways
to go in terms of there needs to be just
some more security around certain things. Don't We all want them,
But I think the amount I want is a reasonable amount,
and in my industry there's there's very little security it
doesn't always last more than a few months. You know,
jobs are strange and they come and they go. So anyway,

(21:38):
I did the vision board and I don't feel embarrassed
about it. It is on my kitchen table and you know,
nobody's come over, but if they did, I wouldn't be
ashamed of it. So it'll really be interesting, I think
for you to hear my little therapy session with Allison,
because everything in my head, it's not even really how
I feel, and I wouldn't have known it until like

(21:59):
to the steps to tell her and then to then
do the assignment. Okay, well this was a very long intro,
and when I am done talking, you're going to hear
my conversation with the absolutely wonderful Alison Stepanock. I have
your book in front of me, even though no one

(22:20):
else can see this but you, but the Anxiety Healer's Guide,
Coping Strategies and mindfulness Techniques to calm the mind and body.
What I love about this book is, to me, it's
a bible of every single thing about anxiety, from the mental,

(22:41):
to the physical to the spiritual. Do you know what
I mean? Yes, well I have. I have actually called
it that before and other interviews. I had the Bible
of anxiety, or I actually call it now the encyclopedia.
That's the word I'm using. Less religious, the encyclopedia. Yeah, yeah,
non domination. Um, but yeah, essentially. I so I've struggled

(23:03):
with anxiety for most of my life. I didn't realize
I struggled with anxiety as a child up until like
ten years ago. I didn't really know. I knew I
had problems as a child socially and emotionally. I'm a
very highly sensitive person. Um, But I don't think there
was a lot of language back then for my parents
and most people to know what kids were going through.

(23:24):
And anxiety and a child looks very different than it
doesn't an adult. Children don't have words to express themselves,
so it comes out thematically a lot of times. So
for me, it was in my stomach all the times.
I had stomach aches all the time. So I recently,
um started you know, not recently, and my journey has
been probably ten fifteen years since I had like a
real my first real panic attack, and that's when I

(23:46):
knew something was really wrong. Um. It was on my
thirtieth birthday and my sister threw me a surprise party,
and that will never happen again. No one will throw
me surprise parties. UM. I was just going through a
really hard time in my life at that point. I
hadn't talked to anybody about it, and so my sister
had invited all these people to this party that I
didn't even like anymore, and I didn't even want to

(24:07):
talk to you and ended up in the bathroom and
in my room the entire day, and everyone's like, what's
going on, what's wrong with you? It was, Yes, it
was really really difficult, and so UM that day, I
knew something was definitely wrong because that was a panic attack.
So I started seeking out. And I am a psychologist

(24:27):
full disclosure, you know, I'm a therapist to UM, but
I'm also human first. So I realized that I definitely
needed to get some extra support, which I did, and
started researching a lot about anxiety and reading more on
it UM and understanding more about the therapy that I
had been working on with clients that I wanted to
try it on myself, which is cognitive behavioral therapy that's

(24:51):
the research on that has been so effective for anxiety
disorders UM. So I started learning more about my childhood
and just that I've really struggle with social anxiety, which
no one would ever who knows me, would ever say,
because I'm very energetic and I'm engaged with people when
I'm out, I'm really engaging, but I'm also very insecure,

(25:11):
and sometimes being in that environment, it's almost like I
have to be on I have to be this type
of person, and that's what gives me the anxiety. So
in doing all that education research for myself and for
the clients that I worked with, I started putting together
this toolkit for myself um of all different strategies and

(25:33):
resources and coping techniques and created this toolkit for myself.
And I remember thinking as I was thinking about the book,
like I wish I had something like this book when
I was going through this in the beginning that I
could go to and say, oh, my gosh, you need
to create a toolkit. But I don't even know what
these tools are, Like it took me years to research

(25:53):
a lot of these Eastern you know, Eastern world tools, right,
Like in the holistic world, Eastern medicine is not something
that's taught a lot in the Western world. Learning a
lot more about meditation and I kind of consider myself
a Buddhist, so I am spiritual. Um, you don't have
to be, you know, to do this work, but um,

(26:15):
you know, learning more about just nature and the therapy
of nature is huge for me. And how to use
your mind to visualize calming spaces, and um, what kind
of tools are really self soothing, like tangible tools and
all of them. I just wanted an encyclopedia. There was
something that really hit me about your surprise party that
gave you a panic attack. To the uninitiated, to someone

(26:38):
who's never heading anxiety, they might think, oh, she just
doesn't like a lot of people, and the surprise is
what gave our panic attack. But when you said, you know,
some of these people didn't really like anymore, I feel
like there's something with being someone that has anxiety. Sometimes
it takes us a really long time to kind of
know what our feelings are, and we may not even

(27:00):
be sharing our thoughts and lives with those closest to us.
We're figuring it out for ourselves. So there's no world
where your sister would know who you like and don't like.
And it's almost like you're living this separate life and
people are like well, I didn't know what I mean,
how was I supposed to know? And You're like, why

(27:20):
I didn't know to tell you? And I just think
it sounds more like the anxiety was about this isn't
my life? Why are you giving me this party? Like
this isn't me? Was that what you're experiencing? You just
hit the nail on the head, because I don't think
I really knew who I was until like ten years ago.
So I'm forty going to be forty two, and so
that was kind of close to my thirty birthday. So

(27:43):
after that and I started really this journey of learning
more about myself and why I react in certain environments.
So for ten years I've been sort of learning and
creating this toolkit. But before then I had no idea.
I actually in my twenties, I numbed a lot of
depression that I had. Also, an anxiety and depression are
very connected as well. I kind of called them siblings,

(28:05):
like their symptoms look very different, but the thoughts we
have are very similar, and we go through both of them.
So I was struggling with both. But I had a
lot of depression and I was masking it with drinking.
I was drinking a lot. I was going out with
my friends a lot. I mean, obviously, you're in your
twenties are going to be like having fun, but like
I was blacking out and that's not healthy. Um, I
couldn't remember some of my nights I remember, again, going

(28:27):
back to the social aspect of it, I've always been
more insecure around men, right, So I you know, I
enjoyed the whole fun of like meeting guys, and I
never really knew how to have like a steady boyfriend.
I sort of was just like I loved the attention
from guys so like, but I was so insecure. So
I would go out and the only way I would

(28:48):
feel scure about myself as if I drank a lot.
So that was that was something that stemmed from childhood
that I learned about that I just didn't feel good
about my body and I had this sort of disordered
eating also, um, and just had to learn so much
that that was connected a lot to my childhood because
I know we're talking about this before we started, but
I was bullied really bad in grade school. And you know,

(29:13):
when you think of trauma, you know a lot of
people hear the word trauma, they think of a huge catastrophe.
And these are traumas for sure, like and very serious
ones and different types of abuse, right, Like, definitely taking
that serious and that's traumatic. But there's also other traumas
that happened in people's lives that I don't think, um,
they give credit to because maybe it's like a little

(29:34):
t trauma, you know, and they're just like, maybe that's
not a bit of a deal, but it really is,
especially for children. So like, bullying is a huge traumatic
thing for a child, and the situation I went through
has carried on. Well, you mentioned, you know in your
intro that when you were talking about your book, that
kids experience anxiety differently, so it's so madic for them.

(29:57):
Does that mean that means in the body right, yes,
because children don't really have the language to know how
to express their feelings. So a lot of the work
I do in my private practice with kids is feelings education.
So I'll give them, um, you know, feeling faces with
the feeling word underneath and like a page of them,
and I'll teach them how to use ice statements at
that say I feel this because and honestly I do

(30:19):
that with some adults too, because if you're not taught
that as a child, You're not gonna know. We'll be
right back. When I was a kid, I went to
the nurse's office a lot with the stomach game. And

(30:42):
I remember that again like just kind of vague memories,
hushed tones. Is there trouble at home? It always went
to there must be big T trauma going on and
you being hit or beaten, which I wasn't, you know,
like the stomach gigs were happening us cool because I
was being picked on by some people. I had friends,

(31:04):
but then there were boys that picked on me, and
it was weird because it went to this. People didn't
have language for this in the eighties, so it was
either you're being beaten by your parents or everything is normal.
And since I wasn't being beaten by my parents, nobody
could figure out what the stomach aches where. My mom
took me to the doctor and they said she's allergic
to milk. But I I brought the bullying to my

(31:29):
parents and they treated it seriously. But the school didn't.
And this was you know, for years and years, they
just did not They just thought it was normal. And
so my point is that those little T traumas it's
It's been very hard for me as an adult to
think that that had anything to do with anything I

(31:52):
may feel now, because I go, I wasn't trying to
be friends with the boys that are bullying me. I
truly thought they were jerks. I didn't I really didn't
value their opinion at a very good self esteem. But
of course it hurts, and it does something to you,
and people are just being cruel for no reason, and

(32:12):
adults won't protect you like that has to do something, right,
What does that do to the kids? Well, word, no
matter how old you are, like words, if someone says
something about you. And I think that's the hardest part
of this entire journey, and that's so connected to mental
health in general, is really loving who you are. And

(32:33):
so as a child, you don't really have Again, you
don't have the language to your You're learning who you are,
so like, who do I love? I don't know, I'm
learning who I am, right, So it's up to your
caregivers and it's up to the people around you to
like reinforce those things about you that are wonderful, and
but they can't control everything right, And so much of

(32:54):
anxiety about wanting to control things, so the people around
you you feel so out of control as a child
because the other people around you don't know how to
protect you either. So the trauma is basically this sense
of feeling this loss of control and not knowing how
to regulate yourself. So that's where kind of like the
science comes in because we have our nervous system, our

(33:15):
autonomic nervous system has a sympathetic side and a parasympathetic side,
and the sympathetic nervous system is our fight or flight response,
and our parasympathetic side is our you know, rest and digest. So, um,
there's back then there was again wasn't really education about there.
There's way more research now to show that there are

(33:36):
hundreds and thousands of exercises and strategies you can use
to activate the parasympathetic nervous system, which is basically my book.
Every single exertise in my book has been researched and
activates that parasympathetic nervous system. So being able to kind
of create a toolkit of what works for you of

(33:57):
these strategies and your support systems and these exercise is
is and coping tools, breathing exercises, that's the best thing,
like returning to your breath, UM, like yoga, meditation, learning
how what works for you, UM and creating that is
going to help regulate your nervous system. But you have
to make it like a daily practice. You can't just
kind of open the book when you're in the middle

(34:17):
of a panic attack and it will calm you down instantly.
That's not really how it works. Well, you know, it's
so thinking back about bullying. So when somebody is bullied,
for example, and it's in their body, and you know,
their therapists tells them or something twenty thirty years later
as an adult, but that's still affecting them, that's how

(34:39):
right it's not. I think a lot of people go, no, no, no,
it doesn't affect me because they're they're thinking about feelings, right,
They're not feeling sad about it, they're not feeling mad
about it. But you're saying, if somebody bullied me or
bullied someone, that's going to upset your nervous system. You're
going to go into some kind of fight or flight
as a kid. And then maybe if there's a situation
that mirrors that when you're an adult, that kicks in

(35:00):
again and you're and you're in fight or flight and
you need to learn to regulate. Is that is that
how it works. But even even worse than that is
that when you experience any type of trauma, you sort
of your body goes into the and your mind goes
into the state of fight or flight and actually never

(35:20):
really leaves it. It's sort of in that state. There's
ways that people might feel, you know, well, I'm laying
in bed right now. You know, I'm not. I'm not
really like having a panic attempt right it doesn't look
like I'm panic, But their mind could be racing about
a million things. They could be watching a show. So
it's you know, you're in this constant state of it

(35:42):
a fight or flight and sometimes you just don't know
because we have like fifty thoughts a day in our
conscious and subconscious mind. So just being able to process
those thoughts that's why I'm obviously a therapist, but I
so a proponent of therapy. Um. But it's it's just
having someone that can help you kind of tear away

(36:05):
at the brain like kind of an onion, like peel
away those thoughts and like see which are intrusive. And
that's where the CBT comes in for me. Why it's
so effective being able to understand your thought patterns and
how intrusive they are, what thoughts are irrational, how you
can challenge your thoughts a little bit, and what you
can do to challenge them and learn how to love
yourself and find self compassion more often. I mean, it's

(36:26):
all part of the process. It's a lifelong journey too.
It's not just you're going to be like cured, you know.
So it's like to anyone listening who hasn't started on
their journey of anxiety recovery, it's like, it doesn't take
thirty years to feel better. It just takes thirty years
to keep learning every single thing. Yeah, but you will
feel better. I think you could feel better by the

(36:47):
end of the day if you started doing some little
things here and there, right at the very least right well, So,
so that's and I don't I don't know if you
got to this part of the introduction, but that's why
in the introduction is so important. So I would say,
you don't need to read my book like cover to cover, um,
except for the intro. Read the intro definitely, and then

(37:08):
create your tool kit by practicing some of the exercises
in whatever chapter you want to start with. I mean
there's a chapter of breath work, and then visualization exercises,
self soothing tools, distraction ideas. I mean, there's all different chapters.
You don't have to go, you know, in chronological order.
But with the introduction, one of the most important things
you can do to start with is begin by rating
yourself every day. So I have a rating scale in

(37:31):
the introduction and it goes from one to ten. Ten
being the most scared and anxious you've ever felt. Maybe
you had a panic attack and you're in the e
er right, that's like the worst, and one is the
most calm you've ever felt. I mean, where are you?
What's your happy place? Right like your brain? You just
feel really calm and balanced. And the reason it's not

(37:51):
zero is because the emotion of fear and worry is
something we need, right like actual emotion. Both of those
emotions they protect us in a way from actual danger.
So if we're actually and if we're in front of
a bear, we need we need worry and we need
fear to tell us what to do. Like our sympathetic

(38:14):
nervous system. Do we fight, flight, freeze, you know, what
do we need to do in that moment. The hard
thing about anxiety is that anxiety is just a really
debilitating and perceived fear and worry. Right. It's something we
perceive is dangerous, but in reality it's really not that dangerous. Right,
It's like there's actually no bear no, but our body
doesn't know the difference. So that's why people with panic attacks,

(38:37):
they could be sitting in the middle of class and
they just start having a panic attack, and it's because
their brain is something, the thoughts they're having something is
making them feel they're unsafe. So you want to start
by rating yourself from one to ten. So wake up
in the morning and rate yourself right in the middle
of the day, right yourself at the end of the night,
rate yourself. And there's actually another writing scale that's on

(38:59):
the the other page that is like how to heal
yourself when you're at that certain number. So you know,
if you're at a two or three, you want to
practice like one or two of your healing tools all
that stuff. Um, when you get to the higher numbers,
it's going to be a lot harder to come out
of that. So you could practice. You could definitely practice
some of these tools, especially breathing is really good. These

(39:22):
breathing exercises are great when you start to panic, but
it's going to be very hard because our brain is
already in an irrational state, so we're not going to
be able to come out of it. So that's why
I say, practice whatever is in your tool kit when
you're at like A two or three or four. So
that's a mix. It a daily practice, and then it
becomes a habit, and then you just know what to
do when you start feeling these triggers. I had this exact.

(39:44):
One of my first experiences with working on any kind
of anxiety was I had never been to therapy, but
when I was nineteen or twenty, I took a Fear
of Flying class Stop. Yeah, I went to the airport.
We talked about this m on our pod, my podcast
to the Anxiety Checks. We talked about this and my
my co host at this class. It was the best

(40:06):
thing I've ever done. It was it was in Boston,
you know, back in the nineties, and you could just
kind of walk into the airport and they had there
was a conference room in the Delta Airlines lounge and
there was a plane parked right outside of the window.
And my panic was so bad around flying, my phobia,
which turned out, you know, as we all know, just

(40:27):
a fear of panicking on a plane. Yes, once I
found out, oh it can't really crash, I mean, you know,
the odds or this and that, well, I still have
the sensations. And that's because I'd had a panic attack
on a plane as a kid and that never wanted
to feel that again. And then it just kept getting
worse and worse. And then I practiced avoidance for years
and didn't get on planes and missed out on so

(40:48):
many things, and we basically desensitized ourselves slowly. So that
plane that I said that was outside the window. He
didn't open the blinds until the third week of class,
and then we spent one class with just a plane
right out there, and we would rate our panic levels
or anxiety levels beginning middle end of class. He taught

(41:10):
us what to avoid eating, not for life, but just
you know, obviously, don't have coffee before you get on
the plane. Simple things. But we did visualizations every night
while we were supposed to do That was our homework,
and we had to do thirty minutes of progressive Muslim
relaxation every night, my favorite, my favorite, and then we

(41:32):
had to visualize ourselves um in a happy place. But
then the visualizations graduated to try to keep that feeling
of the happy place, but now visualize yourself on the plane.
And anyway, we It didn't make sense to me at
the time because again you were doing all this in

(41:52):
the safety of our living room. And but we did
it every night, and it does change. You know. I
still had a lot of anxiety on the flight, but
it wasn't as bad as as it used to. Got on,
I got on, we flew. I think everyone in the
class honestly did a little better than me. But it
because I still didn't fly for a while after that.

(42:14):
I needed more practice. But because I could, I honestly
was stubborn. I couldn't let go of the fact that
this like it was like, well, it's working, but what
if it doesn't. I couldn't stop the what if it
doesn't the hardest But anyway, all that to say that
when I think about hearing the words visualization or practice

(42:37):
this when you're calm, it is actually one of the
greatest things that helped me, because you're giving yourself as
you know your own experience that you can when you're
in an anxious situation, you can say, hey, remember when
I was sitting on my couch and I felt great
or I felt relaxed, Let's try to go there now.

(43:00):
Instead of someone telling you how to feel, you you
have your own experience to draw and you you know
you don't. It doesn't feel like someone's telling you what
to do. You it's your own work that you've done.
I mean, those those exercises and PMR Progressive mess or
relaxation is like a huge it's bold, like stars in
my tool kit because it is the most effective I

(43:24):
think for people that experience stomach aches or other physical
symptoms often that don't turn into a full blown panic
attack yet, but you know, you can feel like things
are happening. Progressive muscle relaxation is so helpful for that.
But yeah, practicing these exercises like when you're you know,
at the lower when you wake up, I mean most
people will wake up at that I've talked to you

(43:45):
at like a two or three. UM, but there's people
that you struggle with morning anxiety for sure that they'll
wake up at a higher level. But in general, UM,
it's a good if you can fit that into like
your morning routine something as far as you know, UM journaling.
I also talk a lot about in the book doing
some gratitude exercise in the morning, UM, doing a short

(44:07):
yoga UM for anxiety video or a meditation. I love
inside timer. It's my favorite. I know people use calm
and headspace and they're all great, Um, I just love
insight timer. I like that no to youah, and just
making it part of your routine in the morning as
best as you can. I know people have families and kids,
and I know sometimes like what am I supposed to

(44:27):
do that when I'm like trying to pack a million lunches,
but being able to make it a priority so and
and I hope people listening are and be like, oh
my god, I can't do that. But waking up like
fifteen minutes earlier, if you know that you have you
don't have that time, and just making it you don't
even need to leave your bed, just do a meditation
in your bed for them. I've done that to where

(44:49):
it's like I always feel so great in the morning.
I'm because I'm probably sleepy, but it feels very calm.
So it's hard for me to motivate to do anything.
So like I feel great, you know, but I've started to, UM,
you know, I'm not started to, but I've realized that, well, yeah,
this is the time to do that stuff. And of course,
like I don't have kids, so I can you know,
just get up and do that. But of course it doesn't.

(45:10):
It's still hard to motivate, you know. UM. And I
will do a five minute laying in bed meditation and
I'll set my alarm just in case I fall asleep.
But you know that perfectionistic brain goes five minutes also
going to do anything. And if I can shut that
up and do it, it's motivating me to do maybe
five minutes more. You know. It feels good, yes, yes,

(45:34):
And and that's I mean, perfectionism and anxiety are very
very connected as well. I mean every single client I
work with, am I in my UM practice and people
I've talked to in my d M s UM, perfectionism
is huge. And I think what what it comes down
to is so in the CBT world, UM, we talk

(45:54):
a lot about something called core beliefs, and essentially they're
just these like beliefs that we have about ourselves that
kind of create our world view and how we see
and perceive the world, and they're very, very deep rooted,
so it's difficult. It's way more difficult to change those
core beliefs than it is to kind of challenge a
thought right or reframe a thought like that's that's easier

(46:16):
to try and do those exercises, but when it comes
down to these core beliefs, it is really hard to
change them. But it's not impossible, and it's one a
thousand percent. You know, in recovery, you can do it. Um.
I For me, I I thrived when I was with
a professional and helping me with this. But I would

(46:38):
say that's the core beliefs for people with anxiety. I
would say, like the number one this is not based
on my research, but that I've heard over and over
again and with myself is feeling like you're not good enough.
And so with perfectionism comes this belief about yourself. A
lot of times it's like I'm not doing enough, I'm
not good enough. Um you know, I just did a
post on my Instagram about this today, about feeling like

(47:01):
you're it's so easy to compare yourself to other people
now with social media and we didn't have that back
when we were younger. I mean it was kind of nice.
This is the one part I was happy about during
my bullying thing. I could actually go home from school
and not have to I couldn't escape it. I didn't
have social media, and I that saved me. I feel

(47:23):
like being able to not see those kids are here
or nothing. They weren't able to do anything besides school,
and so being able to but I think that, you know,
contributed to my belief about myself is like why am
I not enough? Why are these people saying these things
about me? So the perfectionism is real and being able
to tap into that belief and understand like where does

(47:45):
that come from? And am I really not enough? But
what makes me enough? You know? And that comes that
there comes a self love and a self compassion piece, Like,
there's so many different parts of who I am, and
anxiety is one piece and that makes me feel damaged sometimes,
but there's so many other wonderful parts of myself. What
are they? You know? Are they really things that? And

(48:06):
sometimes when you're first starting this work, you're just like
I don't think I have any parts of my and
you're just like, um, okay, we let's think about what
do you do in your life, what do you like
to do? And then you kind of talk about it
and you just learned to love yourself more. We'll continue
the interview on the flip side of a quick message
from our sponsors. I don't think my anxiety got manageable

(48:35):
or better or dissipated until I truly loved myself. And
I wish I could tell people how I did it,
but it just was over years and years of work,
and I didn't even know I didn't love myself because
I you know, it's hard to explain what that feels like, right,
But it was more like my life was more chaotic
when I did, And I don't know how to put it,

(48:56):
you know, yes, sure, yeah, And so I think that
for anxiety, it's it's like for people that can't begin
to do the littlest thing to alleviate symptoms, I always
suspect somewhere in their mind is a belief you you

(49:16):
have it worse than anyone, you can't get better, which,
then under that is like, you know, what do you
even deserve to feel better for? You know? Yeah, well,
I mean there's almost there's also so much shame because
there's still stigma associated with mental health in our country.
I mean, and let's not even talk about other countries
that don't even some of them don't even have mental
health resources. They don't even really believe in psychology, you know.

(49:39):
I mean, there's UM which is why I actually love
my platform because Instagram is like, sometimes I'll get messages
from people in India or other other countries that have
no access to therapy or resources and the only education
they're getting is Instagram my page. And you know, I wonder,

(50:00):
how like I just think about how amazing that is
that they can actually get information, at least if they
can't have access to it. I was interviewing UM, this
woman named Dr Nina Vassin, who is a She works
at Stanford University and she teaches kind of young entrepreneurs
how to create things that will help in the anxiety space.

(50:25):
Because there's some statistic I'm gonna get it wrong, but
it's it's out there on the previous episode that of
all the millions and billions of people that have enough
anxiety to warrant help, there just aren't enough therapists. And
so things like your Instagram page and things like your
book or even this podcast or whatever can help people

(50:46):
because it's not like you do nothing or you go
to therapy. There's those little breadcrumbs along the way, like
someone can pick up your book and they can learn
to rate their anxiety. They can learn rectangle breathing. That's
going to alleviate things. It will change their anxiety, They'll
have a little more self esteem, they'll be able to
get up and do the next thing. Maybe some people

(51:06):
don't even need therapy right, Maybe they just need some tools.
Maybe they'll need therapy later or whatever. But I think,
you know, I'm I'm glad to hear doctors and therapists
saying no, this is good because I'm always afraid, Oh
my god. You know, I can do a podcast, but anxiety.
I'm not a therapist. Like, we're not giving therapy, we're
giving um actual tools that people can use. It's sort

(51:30):
of like you watch a home improvement show on h
G TV. No one saying now you're an interior designer.
They're just saying, here's here's what ship lap is and
here's how to put it up in your kitchen. Like
you're allowed to do that even though you're not a
therapist or a client or patient of one, Like, I
think that stigma too of like are we allowed to
do this? You know it always seems like that is

(51:51):
for the closed doors and laying on a couch and
and it's liberating too to say we can help each other, right,
totally it is. And it's so great now that you know,
this is the upside of social media. Right. I talked
about a lot of the pros and kinds of it,
but being able to work with people like you, right,
and we can work together, I mean, and I think

(52:13):
it's so wonderful that I've been able to meet so
many different people that aren't just I. Not not just
in the psychology field. I mean I just being able
to end the stigma for mental health and raise awareness
for it, but not being able to yeah, like have
And it's really about education, right, So we're talked about
like kind of bringing a full circle. We talked about

(52:35):
as kids, we didn't our parents didn't have feeling education
or like and if you think about it, it's no
one's fault, right, Like it's a generational thing. Like their parents, Um,
their parents were just trying to survive. I mean, there
was like the Great Depression, right, No one's thinking about
like how you're feeling there just trying to eat every day,
but we're just learning that feelings education is so important,

(52:56):
which is why I was a school counselor for a
little while before I went into my private practice and
as an elementary school counselor. Now, the guidance counselors go
into the classrooms and they have guidance lessons, which I
think started maybe ten years ago. Yeah, so and I've
done a number of them. Go into the classrooms and
you have a you know, a lesson about feelings and

(53:18):
about anger management and social skills and yeah, and the
guidance counselors. I don't know in every single state, I
know just prefen Sylvania. Well I'm sure, yeah, but the
curriculum now definitely includes social emotional learning and a lot
of elementary schools which that was never a saying like
we never got social emotional learner. Can I tell you
in my other career as a comedian, I have a

(53:41):
bit about being bullied that I managed to make funny
and I finally struck back at the bullies one day
physically and I got in trouble for beating up a
boy with a hockey sta M hmm, look at you
that I had to go to anger management. They told
me boys would be boys. I had to go to
anger management. And I always joke, you don't know the

(54:03):
guidance counselor is there until you have to go see her.
And it's not the nurse's office. That's socially acceptable to
go lay down if you feel sick, but the guidance
counselor's office is like there's another door that you go
through the nurse's office, open the door to the guidance counselor.
She's like in some nether world and like you know,
she sits there and it's like you're the weirdo if

(54:25):
you go to the guidance counselor. And and that was
me and I remember, like, you know, I loved it
because I was like, yeah, I'm gonna chill and talk
to the guidance counselor. You know, I thought it was fun.
But it was like you know that now even now
you're even more stigmatized. First of all, you're the bullied person.
Now you're the person that talks to the guidance counselor.

(54:46):
Like so the fact that now the guidance counselor is
coming out from behind her office and it's so great.
Both so great. Yes, I mean I don't remember when
I was in schools and this was just like seven
eight years ago. Still like kids will come into my
office even though they knew me I was around. I
was not just in my office, but they came into

(55:08):
my office and sometimes asked me, you know, am I
in trouble, which is just so telling about still talking
about things openly, right, It's it's not you're not in trouble.
You know, talking about feelings is healthy, and then you know,
teaching them that it's okay. I mean again, there's still
a stigma. There's still a lot of cultures in the

(55:28):
US and a lot of family dynamics that talking openly
about feelings makes you weak, right, that there's this idea
that it makes you weak or um, you're just fine, right,
Like I grew up with parents that definitely I had
a lot of strong emotions. It's like you're fine, You're fine,
very dismissive, right, not validating. So yeah, it's kind of

(55:50):
just letting the kids understand that it's okay not to
be okay. Yeah, Well, you know, it's funny when when
I took that fear flying course. The panic was so
intense I couldn't drive to the airport myself because once
I saw the signs of the little pictures of the plane,
I'm full body shaking. I would have crashed the park.
So my dad drove me, and my dad's born and
there's therapy, you know, and he sat in on the

(56:13):
class and he look I could see him coming to life.
He'd never seen coping mac and he loved it. And
I just saw his world open up where I really
think he got a lot out of it. We never
really discussed it, but when I would do the progressive

(56:33):
muscle relaxation, he would join me in it. Um when
I played my little tapes and yes they were literally tapes.
And I think it's so important that like my parents
never I don't know where they got this instinct, because
again they did not have learning about this when they
were growing up. But I think they appreciated that even
though I feel like looking back on my life, nobody

(56:54):
was talking about it, was a little more than in
their lifetime, and so they were really supportive and they
did the progressive muscle relaxed Nation with me because they
thought it was fun. And like everyone should do it,
even if you've never been anxious in your life. And
so I feel like a lot of times parents will
write me and I'm like, okay, shit is bad if
you're writing a comedian with a podcast, it was no.
Kids like, I don't mean sh it's bad in your life.

(57:16):
I mean ship's bad out there. I mean yeah, And
I'm like all I can tell them is like what
my parents did, which is just they didn't have to
do too much to normalize it. They just had to
join in and make it seem like, hey, this is
kind of fun, Like this is a good life skill
anybody should have, you know, Like that's that makes a
huge difference. I think I love that you said that,
because you know, when a child comes into my office, right,

(57:41):
the parents are bringing them into my office, and um,
it used to be more often like this, but not
so much anymore, which is good. But the parents would
think they would just drop off the child and I
would work with the child and they picked them up
like they just wouldn't have like they're taking a piano
lesson or something. They don't have to be involved in
that because they don't know about yeah, right, And I'm

(58:03):
like and I so my first session is always with
just the parents, not even a child yet, and giving
them education about like how the process works and that
we're trying to change a dynamic of what's going on,
and not to say anything. A lot of parents I
think to just take on so much blame themselves, and
it's really nothing. The parents do the best that they
can with the tools that they know because they didn't

(58:24):
get tools from their parents. Like it's nobody's fault. It's
very generational. It's just about learning and a lot of
thank goodness. So many parents I work with are so
open to learning how to help their children. And that's
when sometimes will be in the room together and we'll
all do a feeling's education exercise together. Right, I'll hold
up the sign, I'll say, you know, to the dead,

(58:44):
can you say a nice statement with how you're feeling
right now? And they'll go around and it's so nice
to see the child they're like staring at the parents
and they're so it's so excited to see their parents
talking about openly about that and they're just like, wow,
you feel like that. It's so cute. And it is
more about just changing the dynamic anxiety bites will be

(59:07):
right back after a quick little message from one of
our sponsors. So what I love about your book is
how many things you have that are backed by science.
But I call them the fun things because they're what
I do for fun. Um affirmations, vision boards, yourself, soothing box,

(59:33):
tagging yourself in the mirror. And I know, if I'm
listening to this podcast, I always try to jump into
the listener's head. I think it's the comedian and me.
I'm coming out on stage. I'm like, already know what
you're gonna say. You're gonna hackle me this, but I
hear everyone, but I don't want to do all this.
You know, visions and this and that's cheesy. And it's like,

(59:54):
you know, maybe it's cheesy, but maybe it works. And
I love this as I keep calling it stuff. You
talk about visualizations and you know again. On another episode,
I talked to Whitney Goodman, the author talks of positivity,
and we were talking about when things like the secret

(01:00:17):
get all twisted in our society and we have people
trying to manifest a car or a house and then
it doesn't work and they blame themselves and that's not
what you're talking about with your visualizations, it's more, uh,
tell me the tell me the science backed, and like
why visualizing what you want is okay to do? Yes.

(01:00:39):
So I do believe that for some people it's wonderful,
and I think that it is great for for motivation.
It's very good like motivation for some people that I
think are in a stable place. But there's a lot
of days I feel really unstable and I'm not just
gonna like lay down and be like I want you know,
I want fifty new followers by tomorrow, l and I'm

(01:01:01):
going to manafact Like now, I'm actually feeling really down
and having imposter syndrome right now, So let's think about this.
So it's more I think that's the thing about visualization.
It's more of like validating for yourself. It's not going
to like right, it's you. You want to validate where
you are in that moment and what's going on. And
maybe you are sad or maybe you're scared or worried

(01:01:23):
about something and your brain is taking it to a
dark place. So a lot of times your brain take
and that's what anxiety does. Right. Your anxiety is like
your reactive brain and it's just going to react to
something you're triggered by, and it's going to take you
to a dark place. Sometimes it can make you start spiraling.
Like you said, you're what if thoughts. That's like for
me to what if thoughts right and just starts spiraling.

(01:01:44):
And by rating yourself right, by really gaining more control
over your body and like how you you can rate yourself,
you can decide to really shift what's going on in
your mind at that moment. Right, and you do have
these thoughts, you want to become more of an observer
of them and recognize that your thoughts don't have power, right.

(01:02:05):
Your thoughts are just thoughts. They seem scary, your anxiety
is trying to make you think they're scary, but they're
really just thoughts. You don't really know what's going to
happen in five minutes from now, five years from now.
You just need to be in the present moment. So
that's what a visualization exercise really doesn't. Everything in my
book is training the brain to be in the moment,
in the present moment. They are more of like what

(01:02:27):
we call guided imagery. If you've ever heard like a
guided imagery. Yeah, for example, I said insight time or before.
They have something called sleep stories, So if you ever
struggle with nighttime anxiety. The sleep stories are basically like
a deep meditation, but they use your your imagination to
to listen to a story someone is telling with a

(01:02:49):
very calm voice, is telling you a story. Um, that's
very descriptive. I've listened to these, by the way, Like
what I love about them is they're low key boring,
but in the best of ways. It's like the story
of the Man in the Castle and it's like, I
don't the man never even gets into the damn castle,
and I'm asleep because it's like he is walking on
the grass. It's so mindful, right, Yeah, So I I

(01:03:12):
listened to one about like a lilac field or something,
or it's about a flower field. And the reason it's
so effective is because the person is is literally describing
and using all of the senses to describe what this
place is like, like how it smells, how it looks,
how it feels. And that's a huge exercise I write

(01:03:33):
about in the book multiple times, is using our sense
of senses when we're in the middle of a panic
attack to recognize what you see around you. Like describe
the color and the texture, like what you can feel
around you, what you can hear, and that brings you
back to the present moment. That is one of the
most effective exercises. But that's what visualizations do and the
sleep stories do as well. Is it gives you this

(01:03:53):
image of this calm space. And as quickly as our
brain can imagine a dangerous place like anxiety, right our
brain can just make up that we're scared right now,
that's something Dad's going to happen. Our brain can also
reverse that by using these exercises and and remembering that
we're safe right now and we're in you know, we

(01:04:15):
can imagine ourselves in these safe places and our body
response to that, and I think a lot of people
things that go, well, I've got to imagine the worst
case because that's how I stay safe. And it's like, no,
you don't. You don't again, only if the bear is
actually there. But yeah, it's it's funny. So you're bringing
up something for me that I never realized the sleep
stories were about, which is it's not that they're boring

(01:04:37):
you to sleep, it's that you're using You're you're just
letting someone tell you what to think. You're using your
imagination and oddly it doesn't stimulate your brain to keep
you awake. I don't know how that works. It's kind
of magic. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's basically tapping into
a different part of the brain, right, it's and and
it's it's activating that part of your body, right, the

(01:04:58):
rest and digest part by creating this image in your
mind that is complete like serene, right, and and calming. Now,
obviously everybody has different traumas. So like if you something
happened to you on a beach, don't listen to a beach.
You know, if you've been bitten by shark, please turn

(01:05:20):
off the beach. Maybe the beach wouldn't be the best place.
I don't know, you know, But that's why this book
is about creating your own toolkit. Right, You're not going
to put like the beach visualization I have in my toolkit.
I love um three visualization exercises that I write in
the book is called my happy Place, the serene beach
scene in private garden. Like I love nature, so like
nature for me is always healing. So whatever I can

(01:05:42):
do to imagine myself in some type of nature outside
is going to be in my toolkit. Other people might
be like, no, I want to be, you know, in
my bed. It's just about figuring out what works for
you. You You talk about distraction, and you offer short term
distraction solutions for um, you know when you're anxious, and

(01:06:03):
of course you know, we always hear I feel your
feelings don't distract. But you're not saying that. You're just saying,
like in the moment, right, what what is a distraction technique? Um?
And people listening might go, I'm not supposed to distract.
What do you mean by them? Okay? So this and
I explained this kind of in the first part of
the chapter. So, um, you can read more information about

(01:06:25):
why this is effective. But in the short of it,
if you are finding that you're rating is going up
to like a five or six, right, we want to
get in. We want to stay in that like below
five range, that's like ideal you're anxious reading of one
to ten. Okay, yeah, yes, yes, um, that's ideal. So
if you find yourself like getting closer four or five,

(01:06:46):
you know, all that using a distraction technique, Like for me,
I love I'll watch a certain TV show I'll watch
like The Office and it completely gets my mind out
of something or a movie, or I'll do like a
game distract game on my phone, I'll do an app
um and that is in and of itself, it helps

(01:07:07):
me physically. It helps my body not to respond physically,
so I want my brain is starting to literally go
to a place that's going darker and saying, oh my gosh,
I'm scared. I'm feeling anxious. I'm getting scared what's going on.
Everything's gonna start spiraling. Being able to just distract myself
quickly and know that, yes, now, I know this already

(01:07:30):
that it's not a long term solution, right, Like distraction
ideas are not long term solutions. So in my mind
I already know that, right I have this tool kit,
Like I know that when I put on the office,
I'm not saying, oh good, I'm gonna not be anxious
at all. Ever again, I'm trying to regulate my nervous
system right now, and I need to kind of like focus.

(01:07:50):
Or another one is I'll get up and I'll walk,
I'll take I'll move my body and I'll get up
and I'll go into a different room or take a
walk outside. And it's all about just gregg elating my
nervous system. So these this is another way of just
helping your sympathetic nervous system not explode. And then as
you're as you know, your body is getting um a

(01:08:11):
little bit more calmer. Maybe you're into these shows, then
you can do some of these other exercises. Right you're
more like, okay, now, I kind of think I feel
like I'm ready for a meditation now. Yeah, So that
makes sense because I have a little like tool kit
that I bring on planes, um that I don't do
so much anymore because I really don't have the phobia

(01:08:32):
as much. But there are times when I've taken a
fashion magazine, I just looked at pictures and just distracted
myself to get down to a level where I'm no
longer about to go full blown panic. Then then I
can think about it. Then I can breathe if I want.

(01:08:52):
That's really what it is, because your brain, as you
start to get to a more panic attack mode, your
brain is not thinking rationally. So you might not be thinking, oh,
I'm going to try this breath exercise right now. You're
just thinking, oh my gosh, something's going to happen. Something
I'm scared. I'm really scared right now. And if you can,
if you can find what works for you to kind
of just distract you from that for a little while

(01:09:13):
and then recognize, Okay, my body is like at a balance,
stayed again for the most part. But I know, obviously
I need to, like I'm still there's still something that's
making me feel uncomfortable. So let's like figure out how
we can what else we can do. So, no, it's
not a long term solution. We'll be right back. I'm

(01:09:39):
going to utilize the fact that you're a therapist and
you're gonna give me like a mini session. You talk
about making vision boards in your book. Now, this is
something I used to do all the time. I'm living
in New York right now. In my apartment there's really
really small, and I I love making a vision board,
but I think, well, I don't want to hang it up.
It's too small in here, and I don't want to

(01:10:00):
put in the closet and then take it out. So
I get the perfectionism. I don't want to do it.
So then I go, okay, well, you know, maybe make
an online vision board. And I've googled online vision board
websites I have two apps, and I won't do them
because I'm like, it doesn't count to do it on
the phone. So now I can't do it because I
don't want to do one visually like physically, and I

(01:10:23):
don't think it counts on the app, And all day
long I think I'd like to make a vision board.
So what do we do here? What is the importance
of doing one for you? Why is this so important?
Because I do like the idea of getting the thoughts
out of my head and somewhere I can see them.
And I do have like goal and dreams like lists
that I make, but that's not working for me. I

(01:10:45):
want to see it in pictures. And I also just
want to do it because I just I feel like
why not. It's like an untapped thing and like maybe
all something will come of it. I don't know what
will come it, like if if the actual goal will
come true, or I'll just learn something about myself. But
I feel like something saying, hey, something's gonna shift. And

(01:11:08):
I really don't mean like I'm going to manifest, but
something's gonna shift if you do this, Like but I
think it sounds like to me because you've said this
earlier in our conversation that the perfectionist part of you
is keeping you from starting it, that there's some resistance
that if you do it the wrong way, then it's

(01:11:29):
not going to happen. Right, Oh okay, interesting, Right, If
I do it the wrong way, it whatever that is,
it is, whatever you're hoping to get out of, it
might not happen. So that's where a lot of procrastination
and avoidance comes in because we're really scared that will
either fail at it and we don't we'd rather just
not even know than to try it. So here's another

(01:11:51):
exercise for you. If someone, if if like a best
friend came to you or someone you love came to
you and said that same exact thing, what kind of
advice would you give them? I'd probably say it a
lot differently than like a therapist, but I'd be like,
just make a fucking vision board. Where do you embarrassed
to put it up in your kitchen? That's probably what
it is. You're embarrassed. You're embarrassed that you're in your
forties and you're making a fucking vision board like you

(01:12:12):
did in your twenties. Like, what in your life hasn't
come true that you need to make a vision board.
You know. That's well, that's I'd say that to the friend,
I'd say, that's what you're thinking. But make the Gandham
vision board. There's it's great, you should make it when
you're eighty. It's what's wrong with you? You're judging yourself?
I love that. But can you say that again in
a more self compassionate way to that person? Well, yes,

(01:12:34):
probably because that was so good and very much like
you learned a lot about yourself just then, right, like
why am I embarrassed at forty to do this? Like
there's something in me that feels embarrassed. So what would
I say to someone? And that's what you really want
to say to yourself, but in a compassionate way, So
I'd say, Okay, it's funny because at first I thought
it was embarrassed to make the vision board and have
it up just because it looks cheesy. But it's like

(01:12:55):
I have so many cheesy things in my apartment that
makes me happy. Like maybe someone wouldn't the wallpaper I have,
but to me, I think it's cool. So it's really
about like, oh, do you still need to do this? Oh?
Jan you know, and so which nobody would do. Everyone
I know would be like, I should make one. I
hang out with people that make vision boards. I don't
have anyone in my life that would judge that. Um

(01:13:17):
So I would say to myself, Yeah, I know, it
probably feels a little uncomfortable to make a vision board
because you're saying, but Jen, you're not saying things haven't
gone right in your life and that you know you
need to keep doing this. You're you want a big life.
You have a big life. You keep achieving so much,

(01:13:38):
you keep learning and growing and having so many new experiences.
You're just asking for more. Maybe you will have some
of the same goals that didn't come true, but maybe
they're not supposed to yet. But just make a vision board.
You're just cutting out pictures and put them on a thing.
I mean, it's supposed to be fun. Don't don't do
it unless it's fun. But you're not going to do
it beating yourself up. Yeah, and you just said you

(01:14:01):
said a word and all that. What do you say? Judgment? Judgment?
So a lot of times you're saying I feel embarrassed.
You know, there's there's probably a part of you that
feels judged sometimes or you don't want to feel judged
by other people. But every time that we think about
being judged from other people, were really judging ourselves. Because

(01:14:22):
if we loved who we were and didn't give a
ship like we don't care, if like five people were
in the room telling us that we sucked, we wouldn't care.
So it's really me. I'm judging me because honestly, I
am the only one that's going to see that vision board.
If I have some people over, Yeah, I might move
it in the closet just because it's my private thing.
Maybe it won't. So who's the big bad wolf in

(01:14:43):
this situation? Yeah? You just give yourself some credit because
you're diving deep into your own psyche right, and your
worldview about yourself and your and other people and why
there's certain things that you might choose to do or
certain environments that make you feel uncomfortable. That's going to
be really telling if you can have some like for

(01:15:05):
everyone going through this journey, being able to have more
awareness of yourself and your own triggers and your thoughts
and your feelings and your reactions to things is going
to be the healthiest place to start. So you're becoming
more aware of your emotions too. Right, just having this
short conversation, the feeling word that came up for you
was embarrassed. Right, So maybe you ask yourself and you

(01:15:26):
dive deeper later. Maybe I don't know if you like
to journal or whatever, but you know, why would I
feel so embarrassed if somebody saw this? Like, why would
that even matter to me? Why is the judgment there?
Like you can ask yourself those questions and dive deeper
into your own and get more awareness of your your
own judgment and why that might be happening. Well, this
is so exciting because I knew I was going to

(01:15:47):
ask you this question. I had a feeling where it
might go, where it's going to be just more about
procrastination and perfectionism. But I really didn't think that I
would uncover that I'm judging myself and then I'm embarrassed,
and then I think it's just like I'm to anyone listening,
Like this is the fun of therapy. But you can
also get Allison's book and do exercises like this on

(01:16:09):
your own. And like you said, journaling, I like to
think I love doing it, but man, do I have
to force myself and then once I'm doing it, I
love it. It's so it is really hard to start.
If if anyone listening asn't started yet, I can definitely
And that's why Actually my chapter that's dedicated to journaling,
I have like I don't know, over a hundred prompts

(01:16:31):
to use that actually will prompt you into whatever type
of anxiety or having or what part of your life
you're feeling like is lacking, because I think a lot
of people with anxiety like direction and structure. So sometimes
just saying okay, go journal, you're just like, Okay, what
am I writing about? Thank you so much for coming
onto my podcast. I mean, if you take one thing

(01:16:53):
on your plane ride with you, or if you're afraid
to fly, if you just start here, I keep holding
it up. I'll no one is looking at this. No,
I appreciate it. I know you keep voting it up.
And I love that when you held it up you
have um like post it notes on different pages, because
that's what people have been telling me. They've been putting
different um post it's and just so they can flip

(01:17:16):
through to the page that they need. And my whole
you know, talking to my publisher initially, the whole um.
You know, vision I had for this book was to
make it portable where like you take it with you,
like you take it with you wherever you are, and
you you know, bookmark those pages and so that almost
can make people feel safe in and of itself, just
to have the book with them. Absolutely. Um. I know

(01:17:39):
for sure when I have objects with me that have
information I need, it does make me feel safe, especially
when you bookmark something, because it means I've been here
before and I got through it all right. Who's going
to make a vision board with me? If you make
a vision board, will you send me a photo of it?
You can tag me on Twitter at Jen Kirkman or

(01:18:01):
on Instagram in the stories at Jen Kirkman, or email
me Anxiety Bites weekly at gmail dot com. Show me
your vision boards. I actually I told Alison that in
the wrap up to this episode I would give my
progress report. But I tend to record a lot of
these intros and outros a few weeks before each episode,

(01:18:22):
so I am coming to you from the past as
I talk. I've probably made some of my vision board already.
I did today by poster board, and I bought I
bought a huge one I mean, I've made vision boards
in the past. I think this might be the biggest
amount of poster board I've ever purchased. It's a huge,

(01:18:43):
huge size. So I've got a lot of visions and
I've got magazines. I've got glue, all kinds of I
really went nuts on the glue, all different kinds. I
don't know if I'm going to be in the mood
for like an Elmer's kind of paint, rubber glue. I've
got the stick glue, I've got a spray glue. Will
just say no, you will see what mood I'm in,

(01:19:04):
but I'll keep you updated on my vision board. But
I will be doing it. She really did. In that
quick little mini therapy session. She made me realize that
I was just in full self judgment and I'm really
only holding myself back from having an experience by judging myself.

(01:19:25):
Now again, am I going to make the vision board
and all my dreams are going to come true? Uh?
Probably not? Maybe not maybe. But the point is it's
not that I'm missing out on all my dreams coming
true if I don't make a vision board. It's just
that I'm missing out on doing an activity one day
for no good reason. You know, it's not dangerous, it

(01:19:46):
doesn't harm myself for others, and it's something I want
to do. The only reason I'm not doing it is
from a completely judgmental place and a place that is
not really from a place of self love or compassion.
So there's no reason to stay in avoidance of it
because I might feel a little embarrassed. Maybe that embarrassment
about making the vision board will be instructive in some way.

(01:20:08):
Maybe I'll learn something from it, Maybe I'll get an
interesting story out of it. Who knows, or maybe nothing
I'll feel embarrassed in. It will pass because everything passes, right.
So anyway, let's do the takeaways from my conversation with Alison.
And again these are always up on my website, Jen

(01:20:30):
Kirkman dot com click anxiety bites, but the link is
right there in the show notes and so you can
read these, print them out, whatever you do, send them
to a friend. So here are the takeaways from my
chat with Allison. Anxiety and depression are very much connected.
Even though the symptoms look very different, the thoughts of
an anxious or depressed person very similar. The word trauma

(01:20:52):
doesn't always have to stand for a major catastrophe or abuse.
There are small T traumas that happened to us in
childhood a k a. Only that stick with us. Because
children don't have language yet to express their feelings, their
anxiety is somatic for for them, which means in their body.
If you're not taught as a child how to face

(01:21:13):
a feeling by putting a word to it and saying
I feel, you are not going to just automatically know
how to do that when you become an adult. Part
of the journey of mental health is really learning to
love who you are. Caregivers and parents may be wonderful,
but they can't protect their children from everything in the world,

(01:21:36):
and some children can feel anxiety because seeing their caregivers
or parents not know how to protect them makes them
feel out of control. But it's a normal part of development.
An example of a little T trauma is like that
feeling of loss and control but not knowing how to
regulate yourself, meaning you don't know how to go from

(01:21:57):
the sympathetic nervous system and overdrive fight or flight to
letting the parasympathetic nervous system take over, rest and digest.
People with anxiety should create a tool kit of strategies, exercises,
coping tools that help regulate the nervous system. It can
be breathing exercises, yoga, meditation, listening to a podcast, listening

(01:22:18):
to an app, et cetera. Having an anxiety tool kit
is a daily practice. It's very difficult to just stop
a panic attack with a breathing exercise when you're in
the middle of one if you're not practicing those breathing
exercises every day when you're not feeling anxious or panicked.
One part of mastering anxiety is through cognitive behavior therapy,

(01:22:40):
and that just means understanding your intrusive thought patterns, what
thoughts are irrational, and how to challenge those thoughts while
finding compassion for yourself in the process. Reading how anxious
you are on a scale of one to ten, one
being the most calm, ten the most scared and anxious
you've ever felt. Doing this every day is a good

(01:23:01):
way to get to know your anxiety patterns. Check out
the Insight timer. That's an app. It's a great resource
for free guided meditations and other things. Allison sees that
most of her clients and patients who suffered from anxiety
tend to suffer from the disease of perfectionism. In cognitive

(01:23:27):
behavioral therapy, there's something called core beliefs. So these are
beliefs that we have about ourselves. They create our worldview,
how we see and perceive the world, and they're very
deep rooted, and it can be more difficult to challenge
our core beliefs than it is to challenge a thought
or to reframe a thought. A common core belief of

(01:23:48):
anxious people is that they're not quote good enough. Practicing
visualization is a way to train the brain to be
in the present moment, get away from what if thoughts.
For example, guided imagery is a really good practice for this.
For people with trouble sleeping, Allison recommends listening to sleep stories.

(01:24:10):
It's where someone with a calm voice tells you a
very descriptive story and you follow along in your mind,
and it helps your mind tap into that rest and
digest parasympathetic response. And trust me, I have listened to
these and I am passed out within usually seven minutes.
I call them boring. Alison, of course, has a more

(01:24:32):
scientific way of putting it anyway. In a moment of
high anxiety, using distraction techniques, like watching a favorite TV show,
listening to music, looking at a magazine. It can be
a good way to calm you down enough so that
you can then get into a breathing exercise or meditation
that gets you to regulate your sympathetic nervous system. Notice

(01:24:54):
the way you talk to yourself and ask yourself if
you talk to a friend this way. And finally, don't
judge yourself about making a vision board. Again, thank you
for listening. Rate the podcast five stars on Spotify or
Apple podcast. Those are the places that allow you to
leave podcast reviews, tell a friend about the show, and again,

(01:25:15):
remember anxiety fights, but you're in control. For more podcasts
from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Holistic Healing

On Purpose with Jay Shetty