February 13, 2025 • 36 mins
Kristin enlists the expertise of Clinical Psychologist Dr. Hillary Goldsher to analyze the notable topics that Sex and the City dives into right out of the gate. The topics are as important and relevant today in addition to how provocative they were then.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are
you a Charlotte. So, you, guys, this is exciting. I
have my very first expert on. She is doctor Hillary Goldscher.
She's a clinical psychologist based in Beverly Hills. She has
over ten years of experience of being a therapist and
(00:24):
she is incredibly smart. So we're going to talk to
her about some general issues and topics of Sex and
the City, but also we're going to talk to her
about they have Married Pigs and the sex tape storyline. Okay, hi,
doctor Goldscher, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
It's so nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
So wow, wow, I'm so excited. You're my first expert.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I'm happy to train you on.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Ya ya, I love it, love it. But part of
the reason that I'm excited to have you on is
that one of the things that I want to talk
about in general with the show and rewatching, especially the
beginning of Sex and the City. I don't know if
you have rewatched, or if you've seen the beginning long
time ago. In the beginning or more recently.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I saw it as a fan a long time ago. Now,
in preparation for this podcast, I watched I think episode one,
no no, season one, episode two and three.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Oh great, Okay, so you missed the pilot, which is
fine because my big questions do have to do with
two and three. But I mean, really, what I want
is I'm so kind of I had not rewatched it
until this podcast because for me, I didn't want to
live in the past. You know, I felt like that's
the past, and in my mind I had made it
(01:45):
somehow less good or whatever than like what we did
as we went along. I don't know exactly why, but
you know, we got this kind of wonderful opportunity to
develop as we went you know, HBO really let us
develop and change and shift. So like to me, in
the beginning, we really didn't know what we were doing.
We filmed the whole first season without it being on
the air. We didn't know the response. We were so
(02:08):
nervous about how people were going to respond. And in
some ways that makes sense because a there weren't really
for women talking about relationships and sex so openly, right,
So there was a lot of kind of shock and
oh my god. But then also when I watched the
first episode when we got picked up, which is models
and mortals, there's this crazy sex tape storyline and I
(02:31):
didn't remember it at all, Okay, Like I I was
just like, what is happening?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Like no apology for filming with no consent.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Right, no apology whatsoever. And so I want to talk
to you about like those types of issues and how
we've changed since then culturally, like the cultural kind of
norms and conversations around things I feel like have changed.
And I think that's a really good exams And I'm
shocked that we I mean, I have thoughts and I
(03:03):
want to know your thoughts on like the fact that
Carrie had to sit there with them and watch it
and say, like I need a cigarette, Like what's that about?
You know?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah? Yeah, I mean it's so interesting because it so
deliberately casts everyone in the perceived cultural roles that we're
supposed to embody, right, Harry is sort of cast as
the like bothered witness, right right, that isn't supposed to
have any other reaction, but like I'm a little hot
(03:34):
and bothered and maybe a little uncomfortable, And isn't that
sort of cute and sweet? Right right? And the idea
of impact from the male's perspective, Like, how does anyone
feel in this scenario isn't really adopted or explored. Having
said that, I mean just to hold both sides. We
can talk about our opinions, our thoughts in a moment,
(03:55):
but holding both sides, there is sort of an interesting
unapology jetic freedom around sex, right, no shock value around
these sort of fantasies and ideas and thoughts. And there's
something interesting about that. I mean, we've pivoted to a
completely other place currently for the most part, and perhaps
(04:20):
something is lost. I don't think we would want to
retain the lack of like consent and boundaries and like
open conversation about what's comfortable to people. But perhaps there's
like a spontaneity and an even enjoyable impulsivity that is
lost in translation.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
That's true, That's a good point. I mean, I do
think that in the beginning of the show, and from
the column that Candace Pushnell had written, the non judgmental
part was huge, right that, like they're kind of just
reporting Candace and her alter ego that she created for
the column, are just reporting what they've heard, you know
what I'm saying, They're not part of they're not saying, yes,
(05:01):
this is fine, They're just like, this is what happened,
this is what this dude is doing, you know, and
that's what he's doing, you know, which is interesting from
so many perspectives, and I feel like, yes, at the time,
it was a huge kind of taking the lid off right,
like freedom to discuss how does everyone feel about it?
(05:24):
What would you do? What do you think?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
You know?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Which was great and that's partly why I wanted to
do this podcast is that so many of those themes
and kind of issues we talked about are so interesting
to look at now, like are they still relevant? Are
they not relevant? And I mean, obviously, were we to
come across this guy now, it would be a whole
different reaction, and rightly so. But on the other hand,
(05:46):
I think at the time, because it wasn't really discussed,
there was a freedom we were trying to say, like
we're going to put it out there, We're not going
to necessarily judge it. The different characters might have different
feelings about it, Like remember when Kerrie then tells Samantha like, oh,
you don't want to go over there because this guy's
filling you know, models with and then she's like, well,
I want to be filmed, you know. And I thought
(06:08):
when I was watching it, like maybe that was Candice
and or whoever she was writing about kind of trying
to take back the power of of that. What do
you make of Samantha's.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yes, I was just going to say, I think Samantha's
POV in general is actually really valuable because with her
it's not really about consent per se. She's sort of
always up for whatever and will narrate her feelings and
desires with sort of unabashed energy. And there's something about
(06:43):
a woman, even now, certainly back then, a woman taking
responsibility for her own sexual journey, her own sexual pleasure. Yeah,
and it's curious and excited and energetic and connected and unashamed. Yes,
so powerful, right, is something that I think is so
completely relevant. I mean, today versus then, there's more dialogue
(07:06):
around that and more embodiment of that dynamic. But many
women still feel like, is it okay for me to
talk about my own orgasm in the context of my
relationship with my girlfriends, with my therapist. It's still to
some people not okay, or maybe there's a limit to
how much you can discuss it or how much you
can focus on it once actual desire and journey. So
(07:30):
I love that piece of it and the through line
in terms of Samantha's character and perspective, you know, kind
of throughout the series as far as I can remember,
really hold space for that.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
It does, and it's very unique, Like it's hard to
come up with in your mind other characters in film
or television who are so free and so connected. She's
not free where you're like that girl's damaged. You're like,
she's just that's who she is, and she's not going
to apologize, And there's something so amazing, and I feel
(08:02):
like that's why people there are, you know, so many
people who are so connected and resonant with Samantha because
she's so powerful and such a great example that like
most of us would struggle to try.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
To be like absolutely and relative to men's sexual journey,
both back then and now, it's sort of fair for
men to ow and direct and dedicate like machismo and
energy to their sexual pursuits, but for women that's still
even today. Absolutely, if we ran into Samantha, it's your
(08:39):
reaction to it in her community, you know, in terms
of the people that she touched and interacts with. So
I love the representation. I love the idea that they're
still room to think about how do women like on
a macro and a micro level, embody their sexuality in
a way that of course reflects boundaries and pace and
(09:00):
rhythm and changing of minds, right, But also it's like,
what am I curious about? What am I interested in?
What am I excited about? Like being able to hold
both is an amazing notion.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
It is an amazing notion. And I definitely feel that
we're still struggling, you know, to get there, and we're
I feel kind of confused in a way. I don't
know if I'm reading into it, but like for me,
so here, we've been doing the show. You know, we
started in nineteen ninety seven, which is insane to think about, right,
like so long ago, and yet now you can still
(09:33):
talk about almost all the different themes. Like if you
look at the pilot, the pilot was ghosting. We didn't
call it that, but it was ghosting. And then it
was can women have sex like men? Which is basically
what we're talking about, Like, for whatever reason, the way
that men are socialized and or hardwired, Like I'm not
sure you know which it is. They have a lot
more freedom. It seems like overall. Maybe this is stereotype.
(09:57):
I don't know, but they seem to have a lot
more freedom, Like this is what I'm into, you know,
don't kink shame me? You know what I mean? Like
they're very quickly defensive, like, how dare you kink shame me?
You know what I'm saying, which I mean, I don't
want to go too far, but sometimes people who have
done things that are not consensual with other people, or
the other people at least say that they weren't consensual,
(10:18):
then say you're kink shaming me, which is super fascinating,
like the woman is. It's just like sometimes I feel
like we're on very different pages.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Still, I think men are bestowed with a right to
explore and declare their sexuality and women are not. It's evolved,
it is still a distinct difference in terms of that
openness and flexibility expected from fascinating.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Do you feel like it's a hardwired thing or do
you feel like it's socialization.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I think it's a combination of both. I don't think
we can deny the roles of men and women. You know,
long ago in terms of being sort of hunters and
gathers men, which cast in the role of taking care
of and going out in the community and pursuing and
bringing back and in sort of that powerful in control
(11:18):
role and meant to you know, sort of keep things
in the community coming and buzzing and creating. Right, And
so then also have this sort of primitive edict to
pro create, and women are supposed to be the you know,
passive participant in that. I mean sort of from a
(11:40):
primitive standpoint. That's how were And so I think some
of it has been internalized in terms of the internal
desires that men and women feel. That men do feel
a poll to procreate and women do feel a poll
to like make a home and like take care of.
Some of that feels viscerally true for men. So I
(12:03):
agree some of it is chemical, biological hormonal that's sort
of in there. Even most evolved women sometimes acknowledge, Yeah,
I still have this poll to be in that role,
even though I don't even know if I intellectually want
to be. So there's something in there that feels like
it comes from an organic place. But there's no question
(12:24):
that many many arenas in our culture and society support
just this, you know, this idea that women are still
supposed to play small or they can only play and
embody sort of a larger persona if it's sexual in nature,
right in the object of desire or affection. Obviously, there
(12:44):
are many, many exceptions, and women have evolved in many
ways in many roles, but I'm talking about sort of
these stereotypes that are so woven into the culture. It's
much more acceptable for men to expand and take up
space in all the ways, including sexuality, and it's much
less acceptable for women to do so, more so than
when your show first came out.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Rightly, for sure, for sure, just personally, I went through
this thing where so I'm on the show, and the show,
you know, we kind of had a slow burn and
then more and more success, and then season three it
was just like, wow, you know, you're nominated for Emmys
(13:26):
whatever things we never thought would happen. And that was exciting, right,
but it was also a lot of pressure and you
had to kind of figure out how you were going
to present yourself. And I have a team, you know,
like a manager and a publicist at an agent, and I
remember when we got nominated for the Emmys. I didn't
know what to wear, and so I go to a stylist.
I first I went to all these designers myself, and
then I went to a stylist because all everyone on
(13:49):
my team had different opinions. So I had this one
dress that was like a cutout, like very sexy, skin
bearing dress, very not me, like I was not really
that comfort with it, but the designer really wanted me
to wear it. My manager was like, you've got to
wear that because people don't think you're sexy because you
play the prude on the show. And I was like, really,
(14:11):
are you sure because I am still on Sex and
the City, like the show itself is about talking about
sex and working through these things or whatever. He's like, no, no, no,
you need to wear that dress with all the skin.
Then my publicist, my head publicist, was like, oh no,
Darling's your She's like, you need to wear this princess
dress because you know class and you know, and I
(14:34):
was like okay. So it was this whole thing of
like how do I present myself? What am I trying
to do? Who am I within this conversation and it
was super stressful. And then my mother, of course would
not be wanting me to be wearing this skin bearing situation,
so I would have to deal with her feelings. So
I went with I think a middle ground. I think
(14:55):
I found a middle ground that I liked. I was like,
I'm just gonna wear what I like. I had talked
to the girls about what they were wearing. We were
trying to coordinate, right, but like just trying to find
what you're presenting. And then you look at how people
resent themselves. Now it's totally normal to have almost everyone
on a red carpet in a sheer dress where potentially
(15:17):
their nipples are showing, Like this never would have happened
back in the olden days. We were scared about showing
our nipples on the show. We were like, oh my god,
they want us to show our nipples. We were so
worried about it, right, like would we be shunned, would
we be you know, cast out or by the film
(15:37):
world or whatever, which is kind of insane to think about,
right because now they don't even really put sex in films, right, Like,
just all of this stuff is so interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, I mean, that's so interesting. Your personal journey about
reconciling what your character represented and who you are in
a relationship to that and the public perception. That's so
interesting that you had your own journey about what do
I want in communicate? It makes so much sense because
I imagine you didn't want to be cast as just
that as now herself in real life and even as
(16:09):
the character she's meant to be a much more nuanced
than that.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Absolutely, but that took some time, right, Like she wasn't.
None of us were, with the exception of Carrie, none
of us were really started in a nuanced way. We
just brought what we brought and they wrote towards us.
And in that way, we were just incredibly lucky that
that happened and that we got to continue on still
to this day, thank god. Right, And so for me,
(16:33):
I mean, people say like, oh, are you worried about
being typecasts whatever? I was like, why spend time worrying
about this? You know, we know this is how our
business is. It is what it is. I love Charlotte, right, Like,
I'm not against Charlotte in anyway. She's great in so
many ways, and in the beginning she wasn't all of
those things. But in my inners she was. You know
what I'm saying, Like inside. I was playing. I was
(16:54):
trying to play all those things and bring all those things,
and I didn't feel like, oh gosh, I'm such a prude,
like that never entered my mind because I know myself, right,
and I know my own existence, but also didn't feel like, oh,
I want to go prove to everybody that are not approved.
That seems crazy.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Well, I think the way that the perspectives played out
over the seasons did a service for the viewers, right
in the sense that I mean, there's always conversation of
who are who are you? Right?
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Right?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Able to relate to the different aspects of oneself and
have them represented in such silos really gave an opportunity
to like consider yourself in relation to each of those
kinds of personas.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
That's well put. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
And just to reflect back on what you were saying
in terms of this evolution of right there, you were
worried about showing a bit of cutout or your nipples
or something. In today, I think we just had someone
naked of the Grammy red carpet, right. I mean, so
the evolution is stark, but it's interesting because I think
you're making me think about the fact that it is
one arena and rightfully so that women have claimed empowerment
(18:01):
right that, like, I can show myself and present myself
and my body in any way I choose, and any
feedback or criticism that is bestowed upon me I refuse
to accept as a narrative about who I am. I
get to decide. And it's really interesting that presenting oneself
(18:25):
in a sexy way is a way of kind of
curating empowerment. Now that's one way, it's not the right
one way that really claim and prior women felt that
the judgment that might come from doing a small version
of that was too big of a sacrifice. And now
it's really utilized as a tool of like a declaration
(18:48):
of independence.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yes, that's well put. That's well put. I mean it's
so true, and I feel like that is a big shift,
you know.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, And I hope that.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Women or younger women especially, I hope that they perceive
it as an empowering thing.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yes, well, I was just going to say, I mean,
an important nuance to that. Maybe it's obvious, but we're saying,
is that that may or may not resonate with an
individual woman, right, an individual one, So that that's not
for me that that that isn't how my soul wants
to express empowerment. Great and the natural that's exactly how
my soul wants to express empowerment as right right.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Right there shouldn't be pressure, It should be very uniquely
you and organic to you. And that that's I think
the big message, and I feel like in some ways
that was also what we were hoping the message was
in terms of all four of us being so distinct,
right like, And that was one thing we wanted to
talk about too with you, is female friendships. And you know,
(19:48):
back in the beginning, Charlotte was this different voice I kept,
you know, continually talking about wanting to get married or whatever,
which is obviously very opposite to Samantha and the other
tour in the middle kind of well not really, They're
like no, and then different things happened to them in life.
But you know, it's I love how people really gravitate to,
you know, when like the line when I eventually I
(20:11):
can't remember if it's season three, season four, and I say,
maybe we could just be each other's soulmates, you know,
and people still talk about this, and it's so amazing
what people gravitate to and hold on to and what
do what do you think of that? And what do
you think of that?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Now?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Like, is female friendship more out in the open or
more honored?
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Do you think? Well? I then I think it was
a more unique concept and presented an alternative that really
resonated with community that like, oh, maybe there's an alternative.
Maybe I don't have to find the perfect person and
be married or partnered to be valued and in community
(20:53):
with others. Maybe there's an acceptability to my community of
women and sort of if you will, that can be
we're talking about empowerment, another potential source of empowerment that
starts to chip away at the often less than feeling
women feel if they're not partnered.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Right, can you just re say that because it was
so good, I just want to hear it again.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
So, women, unlike men, have this edict to be partnered,
I mean specifically to get married, but to be partnered.
And in the absence of that, there's an direct and
indirect sense that you have not completed your life mission.
You know that you are or inadequate in some way. Yeah,
(21:38):
So this presentation in that episode offered an alternative, Well,
maybe you can be good enough and empowered and in
affiliation and community through friendship, through other alternatives, maybe the
definition of who I am can be more expansive than
just by related to a man or related to the
(22:00):
possibility of marriage and a family.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yes, and it still just needs to be repeated, like
out in the world so much. I mean, as a
single person myself, it's just kind of an ongoing thing
like why are you single? Everyone's just very perplexed. Why
are you single? They just can't quite I.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Think that narrative is probably still as present as it.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Was back then, which is so interesting, right.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
I think there's more dialogue around it. There's more table
and sort of organic dialogue about Wow, what a strange
phenomenon and wow, I feel that pressure and why and
isn't that strange? But I still think it exists. That
is similar.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, that definitely.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I internally feel some degree of shame if they aren't
partnered and specifically not married. And so I love that
we're holding this dialogue up again because there's such a truth.
I mean, the show embodied it, but there's such a
truth in community, the power of community.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Right, absolutely, I really hope we were talking about this
by producer and I Hannah about like for the young
let's say twenties, let's put women specifically, not leaving you
(23:17):
out men on purpose. But I work with a bunch
of younger women at work when we're doing and just
like that, which is so much fun and super interesting, right,
because they all have just different takes on things, and
I'd love to hear their point of view. And they
definitely definitely talk about you know, we talk about men
and relationships and you know whatever, women and they want love, right,
(23:41):
But I don't hear them talking about getting married or
want to get married or feeling the pressure to get married.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Now.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Some of them come from other places where like all
their friends are married, and we talk about that, which
I definitely had as well growing up in South Carolina.
But they're saying they're kind of like, well, we're on
our own journey, you know, we're here in New York,
We're you know, doing this, we're doing that. We're on
our own journey. But they were definitely looking for love, right.
And then there's some of them who have friends who
got married in their twenties, which is super interesting to
(24:08):
me in a kind of bohemian way, right where they're
still hanging out with all their single friends. There's not
the separation so much that we used to have in
like Mary Bay of Pigs. It's very clearly demarked, right,
And I certainly experienced this in terms of my own life,
Like when someone got married, they shifted into this other
kind of world where you know they've moved, they're going
(24:30):
to have a baby soon, you know they're on it's tracked.
It's like a certain tract that you get on when
you get married. And that was your goal and you
were doing it whatever, or it wasn't your goal, and
you did it. You know what I'm saying, Not myself
but my friends. Yeah, but I mean I, as the
single person, would make all kinds of efforts to still
be in their lives. And you know, my best girlfriends,
(24:52):
I'm still in their lives, thank god, and you know
they're all still married, which is kind of amazing. But
you might be in their life and then they might
get divorced and whatever, they'd have kids and you go
through that with them. But as a single person, I
felt like I had to make an effort to be there,
you know what I'm saying, Like like I'm Auntie Kristen
and I'm here. You know, I'm available, I'm babysitting, I'm
doing this, I'm doing that, so that I'm part of
(25:14):
that whole existence. But now I feel like it's a
little looser in terms of the demarcation. You know, but
I don't feel like society as a whole is necessarily
caught up. Like, for instance, when you go to a wedding.
You know, if you go to a wedding as a
single person, you are still over there at this wacky
table that has like kids and possibly some grandparents and yourself,
(25:40):
which is a nightmare. You know, it's really rough, and
it hasn't changed. It's coming in the show when we
have weddings, and it's highly entertaining, I think, But like,
I can't believe that it hasn't changed.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, you're raising so many important issues. The first I
want to acknowledge and validate. You are right that not
just young young women, but relationship with marriage has shifted
and has evolved. There are plenty of people that feel
less pressure, feel like they can avail themselves of other
options outside of marriage, whether it's long term partnership or
(26:15):
just dating. Right, women feel much less pressure to get married,
to have a family earlier. There has been absolutely some evolution. God, yeah,
one of the things that was in my mind. And
this is anecdotal rather than empirical, but in my practice
I see adults, so a lot of adult women who
are either single or have gone through divorce, who discuss,
(26:38):
amongst other notions, but who discuss this still like internal
kind of deep rooted shame around singlehood. So it's not
as if the dialogue and conversation and even behavior hasn't changed.
And what I'm saying might not be true for everyone,
but anecdotal a still work with many women who still
have that like internalized notion that there's a less than quality,
(27:00):
if not or at least in a relationship. So I
want to acknowledge that there's a shift, and yet some
of that narrative still exists for some women. Definitely, Yeah,
but what you were saying, I think is it remains
a truth. I mean in some of it is just
the is like a systemic issue being in Western culture.
When you get married, generally speaking, you are going to
(27:23):
spend more of your time with your husband, You're going
to have a family, and it is going to mean
that you have less flexibility to be in community right
right through in Western culture, and obviously there's many many exceptions.
People of course exist with a lot of intention differently,
which is lovely, but it often happens that our married
(27:44):
friend or are assumed to be mama a friend is
not as available, leaving the pursuit of connection to the
single person who has more flexibility based on this system.
We're talking about that.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Most definitely, most definitely, and in the particular show Bay
of Married Pigs, which we love so much because when
I looked back on it, the show is so much
better than I realized, and all of the building blocks
that were to kind of get fleshed out later are
there in Bay of Married Pigs, which is really was
kind of amazing to me, and in some ways they're
there even earlier, but it really kind of gels and
(28:17):
Bay of Married Pigs. But you know, Carrie's begins with
Carrie visiting her married friends in the Hamptons and then this,
you know, the husband is standing they're naked in front
of her in the hallway and she's just like, oh,
you know, what do I do? And then she tells
the wife and then she has to leave, which they
don't show that part right, So it's unclear how difficult
(28:40):
that was or uncomfortable or whatever, but clearly it was
uncomfortable enough to the married friend that she that sent
carry back to the city. And then we see them
later and Carrie's not mad at her, which is also interesting,
Like Carrie really puts up with so much. You know,
she's like very easy going about everybody's feelings about everything
she's doing. But she didn't actually do this thing. The
(29:01):
man did it. So let's just discuss that for a
second and the wife's reaction, because it is super interesting
in terms of do you feel still that there is
a thing about married women feeling that single women are
a threat?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah, Anecdotally, I think women in long term partnerships that
have kids, with the stressors of like raising kiddos and
mortgage and all the like not so cute things about life,
start to feel that loss of intimate and romantic connection.
I mean, it's an old narrative because it exists often
it's hard to be married and raise kids and stay
yeah in a way that feels dynamic and sustainable. So
(29:41):
I think it's an outgrowth of that. Yeah, anything that
like there's this like disaffiliation in long term marriages sometimes
and it's less about the married person specifically, or even
the entity of less about the single person specifically, or
even single hood or single women, and more about the
(30:03):
difficulty of like long term marriages.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
That is often, Yeah, that's so smart, that's so smart.
It makes so much sense. I hadn't thought about it
like that, having never been married, but that makes a
lot of sense. Is that it's like a projection almost
in terms of you're just struggling through it, and you
might not have the strength of the connection that you
had when you first fall in love, and so then
that other person who's not in that same situation seems
(30:27):
threatening just because you don't have all of the things
that you wish you had from your spouse.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
There's like a like a disorientation destabilization that marges as
you just try to get through raising kids and staying
connected and the logistics, and it also can be lovely
and amazing and beautiful. It ebbs and flows for most people.
So of course it's a representation of like the wish
for connection, maybe the wish to have that kind of freedom,
(30:57):
and the potential threat of someone else catching your partner's attention.
Because it's hard to facilitate a way sometimes to feel
connected or catch your partner's attention when you're just dealing
with the days goings on, right, I think that's that
remain that piece remains present, and in a way maybe
(31:18):
more so because it's even harder to be a parent
and be in marriage these days. There's more pressure to
have your kid show up in the world a certain.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Way, and it isn't there gosh.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So I imagine that still exists in different forms in ways.
I think in the in the episode it felt more
of a more dichotomous in the sense that the issue
at hand was like, oh, is my husband going to
want another woman? You know sure sexually be drawn to
(31:53):
another woman? And what kind of threat am I under
when it is around? You know?
Speaker 1 (31:59):
So even though she had done anything like that, that's
the part as a single person, I'm like, but she
was just standing there like it's so hard, and it's
like Samantha at the party and the different of the
financial guy. She's trying to talk to this guy about
investing and then his wife comes up and it is
like you got to come in here, and she's just
standing there, the poor woman trying to get some advice
(32:19):
on you know, investment. Do you know what I mean? Like,
I've felt that myself.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
For a projection, and I think that's that's really a
spot on. It's it's a don't even mean it to
be critical. We all engage in projections. It's like a
bunch of projections going on, right, Yeah, listen, conversation and
innocent meeting in the hallway. Right projection is like, oh gosh,
I'm under threat. Something's going on here and right, As
I said, I think part of it might be the
(32:45):
situation and the women themselves, but most of it, I
think is just the entity and complication of long term partnership.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
It's f right, No, that's beautifully put, so well put.
Oh my gosh. And obviously the show's perspective is not
that perspective, right. The show was importantly trying to be
on the single person's perspective because that is kind of
unrepresented at that point and underrepresented still. I would say,
that's right.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Well, I think it's not an unimportant POV how it
feels to be on the receiving end of that energy,
because if you're Harrie in that scenario, you might feel
rejected or disaffiliated or misunderstood and not a part of
there is that scene where she arrived and she was
sort of the only single person in trying to find
(33:33):
right place and space. So the energy, the dual energy
is interesting and paradoxical right coming at her maybe is
some sense of threat or envy and coming back as
some sense of life. We're exactly do I belong right?
Speaker 1 (33:49):
And that's where I mean. Carrie is so interestingly just
investigating it all, you know. She's like, I'm trying to
figure out who I am in this and maybe I
don't want to get married. When she's with the the
marrying guy, she's like, I don't think I want this.
Here's Charlotte, you see if you want it, and we
were going to talk about this. I don't know if
we have time. But like for me, I didn't feel
like that was weird at all that she's like, no,
(34:11):
this is not for me. Charlotte tried out, and then
Charlotte tries it out, but she has a very strong
picture of what she wants and that dude's not it.
So he doesn't like the china she likes. She's like out,
you know, which I think is so hysterical for a girl.
Who talks about like I just want to get married.
I just want to get married. I just want to
get married. She's like, oh bad China pattern. No, like
she's got her own her own criteria. Right, that's right, right,
(34:35):
super interesting. But Carrie too, right, Like Carrie's like, well,
I tried this out and he brought the mobile out
for the baby, and that just turned me right off.
I am not that girl.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Well, we're talking about the intersection of macro and micro,
these macro under the surface dynamics and then these micro
idiosyncrasies like I want someone to like be in community
with me about my China pattern. You know, it's like
this mystery, magical thing that has to come together for
people to choose each other and it to work. You know.
(35:07):
So it really highlights all those complexities you know, that
are in many ways totally intangible. What makes it happen
and be sustainable.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Definitely, and why we still get to, you know, talk
about the show and make a different version of the
show and I mean they're so it's kind of like
a never ending investigation into all of those things.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
It really just hits on so many topics that are
interesting to explore in terms of how they evolved and
some that have like remained steady and the relevant. It's
a really interesting way.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yes, thank you for joining us. You're so smart and wonderful.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Oh it's so fun to come. I could talk forever.
I wish I didn't me too.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
I know we'll have you back and we'll talk about
the next the next couple themes.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Ye, well doctor, your first expert.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Oh thank you, it was really fun. I mean, as
you can see, I could just keep talking all day.
So thank you for your time, and have a eat
day and we'll have you back. I can't wait. So
thank you, Thank you, doctor Culcher. Bye,
Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are
you a Charlotte. So, you, guys, this is exciting. I
have my very first expert on. She is doctor Hillary Goldscher.
She's a clinical psychologist based in Beverly Hills. She has
over ten years of experience of being a therapist and
(00:24):
she is incredibly smart. So we're going to talk to
her about some general issues and topics of Sex and
the City, but also we're going to talk to her
about they have Married Pigs and the sex tape storyline. Okay, hi,
doctor Goldscher, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
It's so nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
So wow, wow, I'm so excited. You're my first expert.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I'm happy to train you on.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Ya ya, I love it, love it. But part of
the reason that I'm excited to have you on is
that one of the things that I want to talk
about in general with the show and rewatching, especially the
beginning of Sex and the City. I don't know if
you have rewatched, or if you've seen the beginning long
time ago. In the beginning or more recently.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I saw it as a fan a long time ago. Now,
in preparation for this podcast, I watched I think episode one,
no no, season one, episode two and three.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Oh great, Okay, so you missed the pilot, which is
fine because my big questions do have to do with
two and three. But I mean, really, what I want
is I'm so kind of I had not rewatched it
until this podcast because for me, I didn't want to
live in the past. You know, I felt like that's
the past, and in my mind I had made it
(01:45):
somehow less good or whatever than like what we did
as we went along. I don't know exactly why, but
you know, we got this kind of wonderful opportunity to
develop as we went you know, HBO really let us
develop and change and shift. So like to me, in
the beginning, we really didn't know what we were doing.
We filmed the whole first season without it being on
the air. We didn't know the response. We were so
(02:08):
nervous about how people were going to respond. And in
some ways that makes sense because a there weren't really
for women talking about relationships and sex so openly, right,
So there was a lot of kind of shock and
oh my god. But then also when I watched the
first episode when we got picked up, which is models
and mortals, there's this crazy sex tape storyline and I
(02:31):
didn't remember it at all, Okay, Like I I was
just like, what is happening?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Like no apology for filming with no consent.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Right, no apology whatsoever. And so I want to talk
to you about like those types of issues and how
we've changed since then culturally, like the cultural kind of
norms and conversations around things I feel like have changed.
And I think that's a really good exams And I'm
shocked that we I mean, I have thoughts and I
(03:03):
want to know your thoughts on like the fact that
Carrie had to sit there with them and watch it
and say, like I need a cigarette, Like what's that about?
You know?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah? Yeah, I mean it's so interesting because it so
deliberately casts everyone in the perceived cultural roles that we're
supposed to embody, right, Harry is sort of cast as
the like bothered witness, right right, that isn't supposed to
have any other reaction, but like I'm a little hot
(03:34):
and bothered and maybe a little uncomfortable, And isn't that
sort of cute and sweet? Right right? And the idea
of impact from the male's perspective, Like, how does anyone
feel in this scenario isn't really adopted or explored. Having
said that, I mean just to hold both sides. We
can talk about our opinions, our thoughts in a moment,
(03:55):
but holding both sides, there is sort of an interesting
unapology jetic freedom around sex, right, no shock value around
these sort of fantasies and ideas and thoughts. And there's
something interesting about that. I mean, we've pivoted to a
completely other place currently for the most part, and perhaps
(04:20):
something is lost. I don't think we would want to
retain the lack of like consent and boundaries and like
open conversation about what's comfortable to people. But perhaps there's
like a spontaneity and an even enjoyable impulsivity that is
lost in translation.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
That's true, That's a good point. I mean, I do
think that in the beginning of the show, and from
the column that Candace Pushnell had written, the non judgmental
part was huge, right that, like they're kind of just
reporting Candace and her alter ego that she created for
the column, are just reporting what they've heard, you know
what I'm saying, They're not part of they're not saying, yes,
(05:01):
this is fine, They're just like, this is what happened,
this is what this dude is doing, you know, and
that's what he's doing, you know, which is interesting from
so many perspectives, and I feel like, yes, at the time,
it was a huge kind of taking the lid off right,
like freedom to discuss how does everyone feel about it?
(05:24):
What would you do? What do you think?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
You know?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Which was great and that's partly why I wanted to
do this podcast is that so many of those themes
and kind of issues we talked about are so interesting
to look at now, like are they still relevant? Are
they not relevant? And I mean, obviously, were we to
come across this guy now, it would be a whole
different reaction, and rightly so. But on the other hand,
(05:46):
I think at the time, because it wasn't really discussed,
there was a freedom we were trying to say, like
we're going to put it out there, We're not going
to necessarily judge it. The different characters might have different
feelings about it, Like remember when Kerrie then tells Samantha like, oh,
you don't want to go over there because this guy's
filling you know, models with and then she's like, well,
I want to be filmed, you know. And I thought
(06:08):
when I was watching it, like maybe that was Candice
and or whoever she was writing about kind of trying
to take back the power of of that. What do
you make of Samantha's.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yes, I was just going to say, I think Samantha's
POV in general is actually really valuable because with her
it's not really about consent per se. She's sort of
always up for whatever and will narrate her feelings and
desires with sort of unabashed energy. And there's something about
(06:43):
a woman, even now, certainly back then, a woman taking
responsibility for her own sexual journey, her own sexual pleasure. Yeah,
and it's curious and excited and energetic and connected and unashamed. Yes,
so powerful, right, is something that I think is so
completely relevant. I mean, today versus then, there's more dialogue
(07:06):
around that and more embodiment of that dynamic. But many
women still feel like, is it okay for me to
talk about my own orgasm in the context of my
relationship with my girlfriends, with my therapist. It's still to
some people not okay, or maybe there's a limit to
how much you can discuss it or how much you
can focus on it once actual desire and journey. So
(07:30):
I love that piece of it and the through line
in terms of Samantha's character and perspective, you know, kind
of throughout the series as far as I can remember,
really hold space for that.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
It does, and it's very unique, Like it's hard to
come up with in your mind other characters in film
or television who are so free and so connected. She's
not free where you're like that girl's damaged. You're like,
she's just that's who she is, and she's not going
to apologize, And there's something so amazing, and I feel
(08:02):
like that's why people there are, you know, so many
people who are so connected and resonant with Samantha because
she's so powerful and such a great example that like
most of us would struggle to try.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
To be like absolutely and relative to men's sexual journey,
both back then and now, it's sort of fair for
men to ow and direct and dedicate like machismo and
energy to their sexual pursuits, but for women that's still
even today. Absolutely, if we ran into Samantha, it's your
(08:39):
reaction to it in her community, you know, in terms
of the people that she touched and interacts with. So
I love the representation. I love the idea that they're
still room to think about how do women like on
a macro and a micro level, embody their sexuality in
a way that of course reflects boundaries and pace and
(09:00):
rhythm and changing of minds, right, But also it's like,
what am I curious about? What am I interested in?
What am I excited about? Like being able to hold
both is an amazing notion.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
It is an amazing notion. And I definitely feel that
we're still struggling, you know, to get there, and we're
I feel kind of confused in a way. I don't
know if I'm reading into it, but like for me,
so here, we've been doing the show. You know, we
started in nineteen ninety seven, which is insane to think about, right,
like so long ago, and yet now you can still
(09:33):
talk about almost all the different themes. Like if you
look at the pilot, the pilot was ghosting. We didn't
call it that, but it was ghosting. And then it
was can women have sex like men? Which is basically
what we're talking about, Like, for whatever reason, the way
that men are socialized and or hardwired, Like I'm not
sure you know which it is. They have a lot
more freedom. It seems like overall. Maybe this is stereotype.
(09:57):
I don't know, but they seem to have a lot
more freedom, Like this is what I'm into, you know,
don't kink shame me? You know what I mean? Like
they're very quickly defensive, like, how dare you kink shame me?
You know what I'm saying, which I mean, I don't
want to go too far, but sometimes people who have
done things that are not consensual with other people, or
the other people at least say that they weren't consensual,
(10:18):
then say you're kink shaming me, which is super fascinating,
like the woman is. It's just like sometimes I feel
like we're on very different pages.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Still, I think men are bestowed with a right to
explore and declare their sexuality and women are not. It's evolved,
it is still a distinct difference in terms of that
openness and flexibility expected from fascinating.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Do you feel like it's a hardwired thing or do
you feel like it's socialization.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I think it's a combination of both. I don't think
we can deny the roles of men and women. You know,
long ago in terms of being sort of hunters and
gathers men, which cast in the role of taking care
of and going out in the community and pursuing and
bringing back and in sort of that powerful in control
(11:18):
role and meant to you know, sort of keep things
in the community coming and buzzing and creating. Right, And
so then also have this sort of primitive edict to
pro create, and women are supposed to be the you know,
passive participant in that. I mean sort of from a
(11:40):
primitive standpoint. That's how were And so I think some
of it has been internalized in terms of the internal
desires that men and women feel. That men do feel
a poll to procreate and women do feel a poll
to like make a home and like take care of.
Some of that feels viscerally true for men. So I
(12:03):
agree some of it is chemical, biological hormonal that's sort
of in there. Even most evolved women sometimes acknowledge, Yeah,
I still have this poll to be in that role,
even though I don't even know if I intellectually want
to be. So there's something in there that feels like
it comes from an organic place. But there's no question
(12:24):
that many many arenas in our culture and society support
just this, you know, this idea that women are still
supposed to play small or they can only play and
embody sort of a larger persona if it's sexual in nature,
right in the object of desire or affection. Obviously, there
(12:44):
are many, many exceptions, and women have evolved in many
ways in many roles, but I'm talking about sort of
these stereotypes that are so woven into the culture. It's
much more acceptable for men to expand and take up
space in all the ways, including sexuality, and it's much
less acceptable for women to do so, more so than
when your show first came out.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Rightly, for sure, for sure, just personally, I went through
this thing where so I'm on the show, and the show,
you know, we kind of had a slow burn and
then more and more success, and then season three it
was just like, wow, you know, you're nominated for Emmys
(13:26):
whatever things we never thought would happen. And that was exciting, right,
but it was also a lot of pressure and you
had to kind of figure out how you were going
to present yourself. And I have a team, you know,
like a manager and a publicist at an agent, and I
remember when we got nominated for the Emmys. I didn't
know what to wear, and so I go to a stylist.
I first I went to all these designers myself, and
then I went to a stylist because all everyone on
(13:49):
my team had different opinions. So I had this one
dress that was like a cutout, like very sexy, skin
bearing dress, very not me, like I was not really
that comfort with it, but the designer really wanted me
to wear it. My manager was like, you've got to
wear that because people don't think you're sexy because you
play the prude on the show. And I was like, really,
(14:11):
are you sure because I am still on Sex and
the City, like the show itself is about talking about
sex and working through these things or whatever. He's like, no, no, no,
you need to wear that dress with all the skin.
Then my publicist, my head publicist, was like, oh no,
Darling's your She's like, you need to wear this princess
dress because you know class and you know, and I
(14:34):
was like okay. So it was this whole thing of
like how do I present myself? What am I trying
to do? Who am I within this conversation and it
was super stressful. And then my mother, of course would
not be wanting me to be wearing this skin bearing situation,
so I would have to deal with her feelings. So
I went with I think a middle ground. I think
(14:55):
I found a middle ground that I liked. I was like,
I'm just gonna wear what I like. I had talked
to the girls about what they were wearing. We were
trying to coordinate, right, but like just trying to find
what you're presenting. And then you look at how people
resent themselves. Now it's totally normal to have almost everyone
on a red carpet in a sheer dress where potentially
(15:17):
their nipples are showing, Like this never would have happened
back in the olden days. We were scared about showing
our nipples on the show. We were like, oh my god,
they want us to show our nipples. We were so
worried about it, right, like would we be shunned, would
we be you know, cast out or by the film
(15:37):
world or whatever, which is kind of insane to think about,
right because now they don't even really put sex in films, right, Like,
just all of this stuff is so interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, I mean, that's so interesting. Your personal journey about
reconciling what your character represented and who you are in
a relationship to that and the public perception. That's so
interesting that you had your own journey about what do
I want in communicate? It makes so much sense because
I imagine you didn't want to be cast as just
that as now herself in real life and even as
(16:09):
the character she's meant to be a much more nuanced
than that.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Absolutely, but that took some time, right, Like she wasn't.
None of us were, with the exception of Carrie, none
of us were really started in a nuanced way. We
just brought what we brought and they wrote towards us.
And in that way, we were just incredibly lucky that
that happened and that we got to continue on still
to this day, thank god. Right, And so for me,
(16:33):
I mean, people say like, oh, are you worried about
being typecasts whatever? I was like, why spend time worrying
about this? You know, we know this is how our
business is. It is what it is. I love Charlotte, right, Like,
I'm not against Charlotte in anyway. She's great in so
many ways, and in the beginning she wasn't all of
those things. But in my inners she was. You know
what I'm saying, Like inside. I was playing. I was
(16:54):
trying to play all those things and bring all those things,
and I didn't feel like, oh gosh, I'm such a prude,
like that never entered my mind because I know myself, right,
and I know my own existence, but also didn't feel like, oh,
I want to go prove to everybody that are not approved.
That seems crazy.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Well, I think the way that the perspectives played out
over the seasons did a service for the viewers, right
in the sense that I mean, there's always conversation of
who are who are you? Right?
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Right?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Able to relate to the different aspects of oneself and
have them represented in such silos really gave an opportunity
to like consider yourself in relation to each of those
kinds of personas.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
That's well put. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
And just to reflect back on what you were saying
in terms of this evolution of right there, you were
worried about showing a bit of cutout or your nipples
or something. In today, I think we just had someone
naked of the Grammy red carpet, right. I mean, so
the evolution is stark, but it's interesting because I think
you're making me think about the fact that it is
one arena and rightfully so that women have claimed empowerment
(18:01):
right that, like, I can show myself and present myself
and my body in any way I choose, and any
feedback or criticism that is bestowed upon me I refuse
to accept as a narrative about who I am. I
get to decide. And it's really interesting that presenting oneself
(18:25):
in a sexy way is a way of kind of
curating empowerment. Now that's one way, it's not the right
one way that really claim and prior women felt that
the judgment that might come from doing a small version
of that was too big of a sacrifice. And now
it's really utilized as a tool of like a declaration
(18:48):
of independence.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yes, that's well put. That's well put. I mean it's
so true, and I feel like that is a big shift,
you know.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, And I hope that.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Women or younger women especially, I hope that they perceive
it as an empowering thing.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yes, well, I was just going to say, I mean,
an important nuance to that. Maybe it's obvious, but we're saying,
is that that may or may not resonate with an
individual woman, right, an individual one, So that that's not
for me that that that isn't how my soul wants
to express empowerment. Great and the natural that's exactly how
my soul wants to express empowerment as right right.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Right there shouldn't be pressure, It should be very uniquely
you and organic to you. And that that's I think
the big message, and I feel like in some ways
that was also what we were hoping the message was
in terms of all four of us being so distinct,
right like, And that was one thing we wanted to
talk about too with you, is female friendships. And you know,
(19:48):
back in the beginning, Charlotte was this different voice I kept,
you know, continually talking about wanting to get married or whatever,
which is obviously very opposite to Samantha and the other
tour in the middle kind of well not really, They're
like no, and then different things happened to them in life.
But you know, it's I love how people really gravitate to,
you know, when like the line when I eventually I
(20:11):
can't remember if it's season three, season four, and I say,
maybe we could just be each other's soulmates, you know,
and people still talk about this, and it's so amazing
what people gravitate to and hold on to and what
do what do you think of that? And what do
you think of that?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Now?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Like, is female friendship more out in the open or
more honored?
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Do you think? Well? I then I think it was
a more unique concept and presented an alternative that really
resonated with community that like, oh, maybe there's an alternative.
Maybe I don't have to find the perfect person and
be married or partnered to be valued and in community
(20:53):
with others. Maybe there's an acceptability to my community of
women and sort of if you will, that can be
we're talking about empowerment, another potential source of empowerment that
starts to chip away at the often less than feeling
women feel if they're not partnered.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Right, can you just re say that because it was
so good, I just want to hear it again.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
So, women, unlike men, have this edict to be partnered,
I mean specifically to get married, but to be partnered.
And in the absence of that, there's an direct and
indirect sense that you have not completed your life mission.
You know that you are or inadequate in some way. Yeah,
(21:38):
So this presentation in that episode offered an alternative, Well,
maybe you can be good enough and empowered and in
affiliation and community through friendship, through other alternatives, maybe the
definition of who I am can be more expansive than
just by related to a man or related to the
(22:00):
possibility of marriage and a family.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yes, and it still just needs to be repeated, like
out in the world so much. I mean, as a
single person myself, it's just kind of an ongoing thing
like why are you single? Everyone's just very perplexed. Why
are you single? They just can't quite I.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Think that narrative is probably still as present as it.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Was back then, which is so interesting, right.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
I think there's more dialogue around it. There's more table
and sort of organic dialogue about Wow, what a strange
phenomenon and wow, I feel that pressure and why and
isn't that strange? But I still think it exists. That
is similar.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, that definitely.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I internally feel some degree of shame if they aren't
partnered and specifically not married. And so I love that
we're holding this dialogue up again because there's such a truth.
I mean, the show embodied it, but there's such a
truth in community, the power of community.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Right, absolutely, I really hope we were talking about this
by producer and I Hannah about like for the young
let's say twenties, let's put women specifically, not leaving you
(23:17):
out men on purpose. But I work with a bunch
of younger women at work when we're doing and just
like that, which is so much fun and super interesting, right,
because they all have just different takes on things, and
I'd love to hear their point of view. And they
definitely definitely talk about you know, we talk about men
and relationships and you know whatever, women and they want love, right,
(23:41):
But I don't hear them talking about getting married or
want to get married or feeling the pressure to get married.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Now.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Some of them come from other places where like all
their friends are married, and we talk about that, which
I definitely had as well growing up in South Carolina.
But they're saying they're kind of like, well, we're on
our own journey, you know, we're here in New York,
We're you know, doing this, we're doing that. We're on
our own journey. But they were definitely looking for love, right.
And then there's some of them who have friends who
got married in their twenties, which is super interesting to
(24:08):
me in a kind of bohemian way, right where they're
still hanging out with all their single friends. There's not
the separation so much that we used to have in
like Mary Bay of Pigs. It's very clearly demarked, right,
And I certainly experienced this in terms of my own life,
Like when someone got married, they shifted into this other
kind of world where you know they've moved, they're going
(24:30):
to have a baby soon, you know they're on it's tracked.
It's like a certain tract that you get on when
you get married. And that was your goal and you
were doing it whatever, or it wasn't your goal, and
you did it. You know what I'm saying, Not myself
but my friends. Yeah, but I mean I, as the
single person, would make all kinds of efforts to still
be in their lives. And you know, my best girlfriends,
(24:52):
I'm still in their lives, thank god, and you know
they're all still married, which is kind of amazing. But
you might be in their life and then they might
get divorced and whatever, they'd have kids and you go
through that with them. But as a single person, I
felt like I had to make an effort to be there,
you know what I'm saying, Like like I'm Auntie Kristen
and I'm here. You know, I'm available, I'm babysitting, I'm
doing this, I'm doing that, so that I'm part of
(25:14):
that whole existence. But now I feel like it's a
little looser in terms of the demarcation. You know, but
I don't feel like society as a whole is necessarily
caught up. Like, for instance, when you go to a wedding.
You know, if you go to a wedding as a
single person, you are still over there at this wacky
table that has like kids and possibly some grandparents and yourself,
(25:40):
which is a nightmare. You know, it's really rough, and
it hasn't changed. It's coming in the show when we
have weddings, and it's highly entertaining, I think, But like,
I can't believe that it hasn't changed.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, you're raising so many important issues. The first I
want to acknowledge and validate. You are right that not
just young young women, but relationship with marriage has shifted
and has evolved. There are plenty of people that feel
less pressure, feel like they can avail themselves of other
options outside of marriage, whether it's long term partnership or
(26:15):
just dating. Right, women feel much less pressure to get married,
to have a family earlier. There has been absolutely some evolution. God, yeah,
one of the things that was in my mind. And
this is anecdotal rather than empirical, but in my practice
I see adults, so a lot of adult women who
are either single or have gone through divorce, who discuss,
(26:38):
amongst other notions, but who discuss this still like internal
kind of deep rooted shame around singlehood. So it's not
as if the dialogue and conversation and even behavior hasn't changed.
And what I'm saying might not be true for everyone,
but anecdotal a still work with many women who still
have that like internalized notion that there's a less than quality,
(27:00):
if not or at least in a relationship. So I
want to acknowledge that there's a shift, and yet some
of that narrative still exists for some women. Definitely, Yeah,
but what you were saying, I think is it remains
a truth. I mean in some of it is just
the is like a systemic issue being in Western culture.
When you get married, generally speaking, you are going to
(27:23):
spend more of your time with your husband, You're going
to have a family, and it is going to mean
that you have less flexibility to be in community right
right through in Western culture, and obviously there's many many exceptions.
People of course exist with a lot of intention differently,
which is lovely, but it often happens that our married
(27:44):
friend or are assumed to be mama a friend is
not as available, leaving the pursuit of connection to the
single person who has more flexibility based on this system.
We're talking about that.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Most definitely, most definitely, and in the particular show Bay
of Married Pigs, which we love so much because when
I looked back on it, the show is so much
better than I realized, and all of the building blocks
that were to kind of get fleshed out later are
there in Bay of Married Pigs, which is really was
kind of amazing to me, and in some ways they're
there even earlier, but it really kind of gels and
(28:17):
Bay of Married Pigs. But you know, Carrie's begins with
Carrie visiting her married friends in the Hamptons and then this,
you know, the husband is standing they're naked in front
of her in the hallway and she's just like, oh,
you know, what do I do? And then she tells
the wife and then she has to leave, which they
don't show that part right, So it's unclear how difficult
(28:40):
that was or uncomfortable or whatever, but clearly it was
uncomfortable enough to the married friend that she that sent
carry back to the city. And then we see them
later and Carrie's not mad at her, which is also interesting,
Like Carrie really puts up with so much. You know,
she's like very easy going about everybody's feelings about everything
she's doing. But she didn't actually do this thing. The
(29:01):
man did it. So let's just discuss that for a
second and the wife's reaction, because it is super interesting
in terms of do you feel still that there is
a thing about married women feeling that single women are
a threat?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah, Anecdotally, I think women in long term partnerships that
have kids, with the stressors of like raising kiddos and
mortgage and all the like not so cute things about life,
start to feel that loss of intimate and romantic connection.
I mean, it's an old narrative because it exists often
it's hard to be married and raise kids and stay
yeah in a way that feels dynamic and sustainable. So
(29:41):
I think it's an outgrowth of that. Yeah, anything that
like there's this like disaffiliation in long term marriages sometimes
and it's less about the married person specifically, or even
the entity of less about the single person specifically, or
even single hood or single women, and more about the
(30:03):
difficulty of like long term marriages.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
That is often, Yeah, that's so smart, that's so smart.
It makes so much sense. I hadn't thought about it
like that, having never been married, but that makes a
lot of sense. Is that it's like a projection almost
in terms of you're just struggling through it, and you
might not have the strength of the connection that you
had when you first fall in love, and so then
that other person who's not in that same situation seems
(30:27):
threatening just because you don't have all of the things
that you wish you had from your spouse.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
There's like a like a disorientation destabilization that marges as
you just try to get through raising kids and staying
connected and the logistics, and it also can be lovely
and amazing and beautiful. It ebbs and flows for most people.
So of course it's a representation of like the wish
for connection, maybe the wish to have that kind of freedom,
(30:57):
and the potential threat of someone else catching your partner's attention.
Because it's hard to facilitate a way sometimes to feel
connected or catch your partner's attention when you're just dealing
with the days goings on, right, I think that's that
remain that piece remains present, and in a way maybe
(31:18):
more so because it's even harder to be a parent
and be in marriage these days. There's more pressure to
have your kid show up in the world a certain.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Way, and it isn't there gosh.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So I imagine that still exists in different forms in ways.
I think in the in the episode it felt more
of a more dichotomous in the sense that the issue
at hand was like, oh, is my husband going to
want another woman? You know sure sexually be drawn to
(31:53):
another woman? And what kind of threat am I under
when it is around? You know?
Speaker 1 (31:59):
So even though she had done anything like that, that's
the part as a single person, I'm like, but she
was just standing there like it's so hard, and it's
like Samantha at the party and the different of the
financial guy. She's trying to talk to this guy about
investing and then his wife comes up and it is
like you got to come in here, and she's just
standing there, the poor woman trying to get some advice
(32:19):
on you know, investment. Do you know what I mean? Like,
I've felt that myself.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
For a projection, and I think that's that's really a
spot on. It's it's a don't even mean it to
be critical. We all engage in projections. It's like a
bunch of projections going on, right, Yeah, listen, conversation and
innocent meeting in the hallway. Right projection is like, oh gosh,
I'm under threat. Something's going on here and right, As
I said, I think part of it might be the
(32:45):
situation and the women themselves, but most of it, I
think is just the entity and complication of long term partnership.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
It's f right, No, that's beautifully put, so well put.
Oh my gosh. And obviously the show's perspective is not
that perspective, right. The show was importantly trying to be
on the single person's perspective because that is kind of
unrepresented at that point and underrepresented still. I would say,
that's right.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Well, I think it's not an unimportant POV how it
feels to be on the receiving end of that energy,
because if you're Harrie in that scenario, you might feel
rejected or disaffiliated or misunderstood and not a part of
there is that scene where she arrived and she was
sort of the only single person in trying to find
(33:33):
right place and space. So the energy, the dual energy
is interesting and paradoxical right coming at her maybe is
some sense of threat or envy and coming back as
some sense of life. We're exactly do I belong right?
Speaker 1 (33:49):
And that's where I mean. Carrie is so interestingly just
investigating it all, you know. She's like, I'm trying to
figure out who I am in this and maybe I
don't want to get married. When she's with the the
marrying guy, she's like, I don't think I want this.
Here's Charlotte, you see if you want it, and we
were going to talk about this. I don't know if
we have time. But like for me, I didn't feel
like that was weird at all that she's like, no,
(34:11):
this is not for me. Charlotte tried out, and then
Charlotte tries it out, but she has a very strong
picture of what she wants and that dude's not it.
So he doesn't like the china she likes. She's like out,
you know, which I think is so hysterical for a girl.
Who talks about like I just want to get married.
I just want to get married. I just want to
get married. She's like, oh bad China pattern. No, like
she's got her own her own criteria. Right, that's right, right,
(34:35):
super interesting. But Carrie too, right, Like Carrie's like, well,
I tried this out and he brought the mobile out
for the baby, and that just turned me right off.
I am not that girl.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Well, we're talking about the intersection of macro and micro,
these macro under the surface dynamics and then these micro
idiosyncrasies like I want someone to like be in community
with me about my China pattern. You know, it's like
this mystery, magical thing that has to come together for
people to choose each other and it to work. You know.
(35:07):
So it really highlights all those complexities you know, that
are in many ways totally intangible. What makes it happen
and be sustainable.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Definitely, and why we still get to, you know, talk
about the show and make a different version of the
show and I mean they're so it's kind of like
a never ending investigation into all of those things.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
It really just hits on so many topics that are
interesting to explore in terms of how they evolved and
some that have like remained steady and the relevant. It's
a really interesting way.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yes, thank you for joining us. You're so smart and wonderful.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Oh it's so fun to come. I could talk forever.
I wish I didn't me too.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
I know we'll have you back and we'll talk about
the next the next couple themes.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Ye, well doctor, your first expert.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Oh thank you, it was really fun. I mean, as
you can see, I could just keep talking all day.
So thank you for your time, and have a eat
day and we'll have you back. I can't wait. So
thank you, Thank you, doctor Culcher. Bye,
Host
Kristin Davis
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