July 21, 2025 • 50 mins
In New York City, the dedicated podcasters who investigate these iconic episodes are members of an elite squad known as Are You A Charlotte?
Tamara Tunie has appeared in over 200 episodes of Law And Order: SVU but today she’s talking about a very memorable episode of Sex and the City. Tamara Tunie joins Kristin as they talk about it all, from peaches to the “P” word!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are
you a Charlotte? Everyone welcome. We have the amazing Tamara
Toney joining us. She plays one of Charlotte's power lesbians,
and you will know her from Law and Order Special
Victims Unit. She played the medical examiner and she did
(00:25):
two hundred and thirty episodes. Wow. She's also been on Broadway.
She's a director, actor, an incredible person. Such a joy
to have you. How are you doing.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm fantastic and thank you for having me? And yes, pleasure.
I love that episode and I just love saying power lesbian.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I know right, It's fun, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It's fun.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
It gives you a whole sense of like why Charlotte
was interested in trying to pretend to be one?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
You know?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yes, still feels that way today. I love your hair.
Can I just say thank you?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Incredible.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I appreciate it. It's its natural state color and curl.
And I'm just happy that I put away the die
bottles and going on naturrel.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I dream of that.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Someday.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Someday I will do it as well. Are you still
playing that same character on all of those SUV and whatnot?
Law and Order.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
No, no, no, no. I haven't done Law and Order
for a few years now. A couple of years now,
I did twenty three.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Seasons unbelievable, I mean as the same character, correct.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
As the same character.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
But however the past two years I did pop over
into Chris Maloney's version of SBU Organized Crime as Melinda
Warner with my natural hair color.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yes, that's amazing. I mean, how wonderful and rare and
what a joy that you've gotten to span all of
those different iterations.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Of Absolutely, I mean, and it's not unlike your show
in that it's the gift that keeps on giving, and
I am very very grateful for that.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Absolutely, Absolutely, I love that. I love the You're kind
of just the quintessential New York actor, where you know,
you've had these incredible opportunities on these incredibly New York shows.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Absolutely, And the beauty of being in New York also
is while I was doing Law and Order as THEU,
I was also doing As the World Turns Back in
the Day and at one point appearing on Broadway and
Julius Caesar all at the same time, and only in
New York City can an actor do that.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Incredible wow. I mean, it's just a that's just like
a dream.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
It is. It is it's a pinch yourself moment, you know.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Well, I do know, I absolutely know. And that's one
of the things that we have loved so much about
doing our show in New York. Not only is New
York a character, as everyone always mentioned, but you have
access to these incredible actors, and especially in the beginning
of the show, you know, it was another show added
because there were the soaps, the old, old fashioned, old
standing soaps. Then there was a phase like in the
(03:13):
late eighties nineties of sitcoms. You remember there was like
Michael J. Fox to say yes Cosby of course you
know previously, but that was kind of would come and go.
And I don't feel like sitcoms lasted. They were. They
moved more to Los Angeles for a while, and then
of course Law and Order started, which started you know,
(03:33):
many versions and SVU, you know, so many versions and
so many actors employed there, which was wonderful. But we
were a comedy that got to come in single camera
comedy as opposed to the sitcom. But the level of
actor who's available to come onto the show was so high,
you know, so impressive.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Absolutely. I mean, come on, it's New York City. It's
the cream of the.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Crop, right, and you know those shows like Sex and
the City, like Michael J.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Fox's shows, and even the soap opera. I mean, most
of us in New York City.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Come for theater, and you know, theater just doesn't afford
you the opportunity to you know, pay for your lifestyle
in New York City. Right, So then all the film
and television, of course was I always considered it like
the subsidy in order for me to do my theater.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Absolutely, absolutely, and such a dream for any actor.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Absolutely, yeah, no question.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
What do you remember before we actually recap the episode,
what do you remember about coming on the show? Like,
had you seen the show? Did you know the show
at the time that you came on?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Okay, of course, who didn't know the show? Right?
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Well, because it was early days. It was early day.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Season season two, right, it was season two, and yes,
and so of course you know the show was a juggernaut,
and you know, everybody loved the show and everybody knew
about the show. And I just remember remember, you know,
coming to read for the role. I remember it distinctly,
coming to read for the role and sitting outside the
(05:07):
casting office and Sarah Jessica kind of coming through to
go on her way somewhere, you know, and how she
stopped and said hello to me and to whatever other
actor was out there with me. There weren't a lot
of us hanging up, you know, but you know, she.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Stopped and said hello, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
And I just thought, yeah, that's classy, you know, nice
and you know, and that's what I do. So I
love that that's what she would do. So that was
that was my first encounter, right. So then you know,
coming onto the set and then meeting you, and the
first scene was in that art arts gallery and you
know that was on location somewhere down and soho right
(05:49):
as I recall, and then meeting you and you with
your charming sweet self you know who you know, just
like Charlotte is just a deer. Yeah, and you were
so warm and welcoming and you know, we just had
such a great time shooting it.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
So and then you know, I.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Just loved the I just loved the reveal of the
power lesbians right and under, you know, underlined by your
voiceover when you wear our backs are looking at some
artwork and then we turn and we so good.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, but you know, it was incredible.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
It's good, it was so good.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
I had forgotten that part. I remember the episode for
for a few obviously very odd reasons. One is that
I got to wear flat shoes, which was like so exciting, okay,
a loafers loafers, which I still have, Okay, and I
was just like beyond excited, and Pat let me wear pants.
But that was also very unusual. So I was having
(06:48):
just the most relaxed and best time hanging with the ladies.
And then I loved the idea of the story. And
I think that, you know, people think of Charlotte, especially
in the beginning, as being this prude, and I of
course understand why compared to some of the other characters.
But at the same time, she's so open, you know,
and she's really wants to, Like she says numerous times
(07:10):
during the episode, it's just so great to be surrounded
by this energy and not have to be worrying about men. Yes, okay,
I love that so much, and I personally feel the
same way.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Absolutely, And I'm sure so many people can identify with that,
you know, so many women can identify it with that
it's just a different vibe being around women, especially just.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
All women, you know.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yeah, so yeah, so it was really cool and not
concerned about men or talking about men. You know, I'm
sure it was very refreshing.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
For sure, it was great. And then it's just kind
of so sad when the super super powerful okay Cawa
lesbian asks her if she eats you know what, and
she was like no, and she goes, well, you know,
then you're never going to get to what does she say,
You're never going to get to come to veil or
something like this, which is literally like you can't hang
(08:01):
with us, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I mean, are we allowed to quote what you can?
Speaker 1 (08:05):
You can't. I am Charlotte. So it's hard for me
to say you can't say whatever you want tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Because it was a total drop the mic line, I mean,
and it was out of nowhere and it like cut
to the chase and she said basically because Charlotte, Charlotte
was saying, oh, you know, I just love being a
wild woman and it would be so great to come
and hang out with you on fail and you know,
et cetera, et cetera, And basically she said, listen if
you don't eat pea, you're not a dyke, and what.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
That's right, that's right, that's right. I love that you
can't say either. It's so exciting to me, I know,
because you think you can, and I know that this
is also how it is when you're acting right, Like
so many times I would have some crazy line to
Charlotte when she's like trying to say something to the
girls that has happened, and I would just.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Be I know, you get that little stutter.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, twenty five years later, it's still true. And I
had Meghan d Stellion on and she doesn't say the
pe word right, And I was like, well, you have
a whole song, and she said, but that's when I'm rapping.
It's like a different personality.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
It's a persona. That's right.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Isn't that funny?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Because if I were the character, I would so easily
it would just flow off my tongue.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
But of course, right right now myself was.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Like, I know, me too, me too, me too, which
is why it's great that I play Charlotte. But I mean,
it is funny. It is interesting and funny. And someone
said to me. I went on another podcast. We were
talking about my podcast and Rewatching, And one of the
reasons that I wanted to rewatch is to see what
was still true in terms of the themes and the storylines.
(09:40):
Was still true in twenty twenty five versus when we
did it in nineteen ninety seven onward. And a lot
of things are still true. And occasionally there's things that
we got wrong or that aren't true anymore or whatever, right,
but there's so many things that are still true. And
one of the things that someone said to me was,
you know, thank goodness that the show came along and
freed women to speak more freely, and don't you think
(10:04):
that that's why women can speak more freely now? And
what I said was, I do. I do think that.
Obviously we were a cultural thing. I get that, but
I also feel in my gut that you know, those
old rules were ready to fall, yeah, and we were
just at the right time, you know, we were like
speaking something that was already kind of happening.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yes, I agree, I totally agree, or.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
It wouldn't have been such a big, you know thing,
Like I think it was a timing. And that's totally ridiculous,
you know.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Because if the social climate wasn't right at that time,
you all wouldn't have been able to get away with
what you were able to get away with.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Right, totally, yes, yeah, I mean I do.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
So, yeah, I totally agree with you, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
And I do think it's interesting that still here you
and I are many years later can't say the P word.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
That's just because that's how my mama raised me.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I mean, yes, my mom would be like shocked, you know,
which was a stress in the beginning of the show,
because she'd be like, oh am, I gonna like this
week and I'd be like, yeah, no, mom, don't watch
it right.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Right right, you know.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
But at the same time, my mother would tell you
I cussed like a sailor. So you know, we all there,
we all live in complexity.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah, well put, well put. I also think it's you know,
what you're comfortable with, Like some things you might be
comfortable within, some things you might not be in. That's
as it should be, right.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yes, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
All right, that was fun. That was kind of fun.
I like that. All right, let's dive in. Let's dive in. Okay,
So this episode is called The Cheating Curve and it
is directed I believe it's the first episode directed by
John David Coles, who ended up doing I want to
say five or six. Maybe you guys could look that
up for me. He did a number of episodes and
he was a really fun director. I don't know if
you remember him so well.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I do remember him. He was wonderful.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, and he does that incredible thing. I had forgotten
that the show begins with the power lesbians, which I
love so much, and the scene that you were talking
about the reveal, where you know, you see this empty
gallery and it looks a lot like the gallery we're
using in and just like that, but I can't imagine
that it is, but it looks very similar, and the
gallery is filling up with art and filling up with
(12:19):
people slowly. And so just because giving the voice over
about Charlotte, you know, doing a art opening, and that
this particular art opening surpasses a regular you know, wine
and cheese cracker thing because it is a lesbian artist
and the power lesbians are there, at which point you
guys turn into camera and as you said, strutforward and
(12:41):
it's just so powerful and fantastic.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yes, yes it was.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
It was amazing, And you know what, I also loved
because I'm a director as well. And what I really
loved is, as you said at the top, it was
an empty gallery and the way it was peopled where
people just started appearing. First there was one person, then
there was set five person, then there was more. And
it wasn't like they walked in the room, you know.
It was like the magic of yes of filmmaking.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, where they just magically appeared. It was cool, it
was really hot.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
It's interesting because this in my mind, our first season,
nothing had aired right, so we were just kind of
working in a vacuum. We didn't really know what we
were doing exactly. We had a tiny budget, you know,
compared to later on, and we didn't really have such
strong directors in a way, like we had a lot
of kind of indie film directors. I remember them being
(13:44):
like someone who had the hot movie at Sundance or whatever.
And second season we start to get other HBO directors
like Alan Coulter who had been the episode before he
came from Sopranos, John David Cole's and here friends. We
started getting kind of more seasoned, not in ass necessarily
episodic TV directors either like a kind of cut above
(14:04):
you know that HBO was kind of cultivating these relationships
with these directors, and they really made a mark each one.
And the way they shot the chefs, you.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Know their style and absolutely and you can see it,
you can really.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Definitely, definitely, And I think it's so interesting because we
don't always think of or talk about the directors. We
talk about our writers so much because obviously there are
also our executive producers and very close to us and we're,
you know, intimately involved in all of it. But our
directors also, especially in the beginning, really made a mark
and John Davicole is definitely one of them. And one
(14:40):
of the things I love was is out of order.
But when I so, I go out afterwards to the
bar and he films through like a keyhole.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
He filmed through a p.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
And this is that word I can say because it
is the proper word for it. It was like a vagina, right.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Ah way, yes, look at it? How did I look
at it? And it was like.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I'm so dense and so.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Yeah, and you remember I'm dancing, and I remember him
really having some very specific ideas about how I should
dance because I was kind of going to do the
kind of like Charlotte goofy dance.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
But he wanted me to do this kind of slow
dreamy dance. And I feel like he shot it in
slow Moe, which was very cool. And you're such a creative,
very creative. And I remember anytime way back then that
we had anything dancing related, even like tangentially dance ish.
Sarah Jessica would get our choreographer to come in because
(15:49):
she was so nervous because it was like her Broadway self, right,
like she read direction like specifics, right, yes, yes, Oh
my god, I'm seeing a picture.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
See I'm seeing a picture of what do you think.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
I totally see what you're saying. Oh my god, it's
pinkish red too. I don't know how.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I missed that.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Good lord, good Lord, that's hysterical.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Go date John David Coles, really hysterically funny wows. Sometimes
I'm very Charlotte. That's a very Charlotte moment that I
didn't realize that. I'm sure I was so nervous about
the dancing that I just wasn't even like paying attention.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Well, I don't even think we saw it. I mean
I didn't. I didn't see it.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Until it aired, So I don't even know if you
saw what was being shot at that cool.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
I feel better. I feel better, yes, yes, because I
was not aware. I was not aware for sure. But
go him. You know, that's a great idea. I love
it so much. It's very brilliant. Okay, I'm going to
get back to my paper and try to rewatch. Sometimes
it's just more fun to talk. So we were at
the art and then oh, then, okay, it's funny because
(17:00):
they cut to Miranda, who's everyone's at my art opening.
That's how the show starts, right, And Miranda's with this guy,
Ethan Watson, who is a documentarian, and we're just gonna
go into some funny places. And Samanda sees her a
guy from her gym there and wants to go pick
him up, which she of course successfully picks him up.
And Carrie wants to leave because she's going somewhere she
(17:21):
doesn't want to tell us where, and she is going
to Bigg's house. And the thing that I love about
this when I rewatched first season, all my listeners know this.
I was kind of horrified by Big because he is
so withholding to Carrie and I hadn't remembered any of
that Also, it was the nineties and I think we
as women were just very used to this, you know,
withholding men. Wasn't like something that we would necessarily think about.
(17:43):
So from twenty twenty five you look back and you're like,
oh my gosh. But what I love about second season
is number one, I feel like he's much more out
of his shell. They have broken up, they're kind of
slightly getting back together now. I find it's so charming
and much more like in terms of just in the
moment with Carrie. But also I love the voice over
(18:05):
here because as she's sneaking out to go back to Biggs,
she's saying in her voice over that she doesn't want
to tell all of us because she feels bad about
it because she knows it's a bad decision because he's
a withholding man. And I'm like, yeah, see, we just
need to name it. And I feel better now that
it's just straight out like that's who he is. Let's
just admit that's who he is. We know this is
(18:26):
not smart. That doesn't mean she's not going to do it.
We all do stupid things.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Well, also, we all you know, it's kind of like
if you know, if you know what you're getting into
and you choose to get into it.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Then you know that's empowering too, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yes, it's because it's like you can always choose not
to absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
I think that's why I like that she's naming it like.
It's not like she doesn't know, right, you know, she's saying,
I know this is stupid. I know this man may
not be able to give me what I want, but
I'm going back because we have this incredible, incredile do
connection and I'm so drawn to him. And whatever she
says in her voice over, it's, of course more eloquently
said that I just did. But I had such a
(19:07):
sigh of relief. You know, Yes, I look better now. Yeah,
I can get behind this now. In a way, that
first season I felt a lot of anxiety watching it,
you know, but of course I know where it goes,
but still in the moment, I was feeling too anxiety.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
And let's not let's not forget that Big is incredibly
handsome and sexy, so let's just not forget.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
That part one and definitely now okay. I think that
was my other issue was when I looked back at
the first season, I didn't really feel that because he's
so pulled back that I was like, She's she's so
giving an emotionally present, and I feel like he's not
even sexy to me because he's so covered.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
You know, well you know for me, I mean for me,
yeah tomorrow, you know, I wouldn't waste my time with that.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Kind of you. They would waste my time.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yes, you know, for Carrie, it was what she needed
for whatever reason she needed it.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yes, absolutely absolutely, I think for me at the time,
and again complicated by the fact I was playing Charlotte
and Charlotte was always pro big So as an actor,
you don't really give it a critical thought if your
character's not giving in a critical thought, you know.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Absolutely yeah, And you can't judge your character. You can't
judge a character night. You can't judge a character. Your
character make choices and you figure out as an actor
how to support those choices. But that's right, stand in judgment.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Right, Definitely, not definitely not so. I did not give
any kind of critical thought to the Big Carry relationship.
But I do love in this episode once she does
confess to us, Charlotte is like what I was like,
Oh yay, yay, I'm so glad because a lot of
this I don't remember. I remember some things, and then
some things I have no memory, and I'm really just
kind of genuinely getting to rewatch it again, which is
(20:54):
so much fun because it's so good. So then we
go back to the gallery and uh oh yes, yes
I'm talking about the power lesbians. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
and I sell out the gallery, which I have never
done in my whole life. So Charlotte is doing well
at her job because of the ladies, which I love
so much. Oh and then I go back to the
storage room and find my you know, kind of eh
(21:17):
date making out with this young model, which is so ick,
but I think that also fuels Charlotte's whole like I
don't even want to deal with men around these powerful women.
Exactly makes perfect sense, perfect, perfect sense. Then we go
to the flea market. This is a scene that I
remember so vividly, and yes tell me, and this.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Is the scene that I love.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Oh do you tell me what you love?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Well, this is exactly where I was going because I
love the conversation about what is cheating?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah, what I remember about it. I think it's a
fantastically written scene. I loved every bit of it. I
love everyone's point of view. But the thing that I
remember about and as an actor, this is also John
David Coles making his mark. It's a very scene. We're
at a flea market, We're looking at things we were
always trying to be realistic, which is sometimes really hard
(22:07):
as an actor. Then we sit down on the bench
and have the more in depth conversation that's begun as
we're looking at elements of the flea market, and he
is able to shoot that conversation on the bench, which
is not easy. But the hardest part was the flea
market part, because I remember it was this very elaborate
dance where you know, different ones of us would move
(22:28):
forward at different times, and Alan Culture remembers kind of
starting this trend with us of like find the lens,
which is hard when there's four of you and then
extras right very mixed, and you're having to like, oh, yeah,
I have to move over here so that I'm ready
to lean my head forward when my line is ready,
and not slow down, right because Michael Patrick never wanted
(22:48):
you to slow down because it kills the comedy, right.
I remember that being like, oh can we do it?
You know, what I'm saying, Like, when I look back,
I'm like, oh, we're doing it. We're doing it, We're
doing it, you know. But it was David Cole is
really kind of upping the game of how to block
those scenes so that it's not boring.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
You know.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
And it's a dance. I mean, it's choreography right at
the end of the day, right.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yes, And so I love. Then they sit down on
the bench and then everyone has an excellent point to make,
which is that cheating is a very subjective thing, and
of course Samantha, Samantha. Everyone keeps reminding Samantha, like, well,
you think the cheating is fine because you cheat, And
she can't really argue with that, which is interesting.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
She doesn't say a word. She she just SIPs her
her lemonade or.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
She rips her glasses off. At one point says something
which also I was interested because Carrie and Samantha keep
their sunglasses on, and Brandon and I don't have her
sunglass on. But I think it's because the sun is
behind our head and they couldn't open their eyes looking
at us, you know, those days you're just like I
can't open my eyes exactly. And then when she has
(23:58):
some important line and she them off, you know, because
they're large, like glamorous sunglasses, and I remember all of
that a lot. But so we sit down and Samantha says,
men cheat the same reason why dogs lick their balls,
because they can. It's part of their biology, which you know,
I think that people do, still kind of feel and
(24:20):
I just feel like that is like such a cop out.
I agree, wouldn't that be true for women too? Like
why can't women cheat?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Well? And of course women do, of course.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, Like it's such a weird, like outmoded kind of
a thing to say. I feel like, I mean, everyone
can cheat, and some people choose to and some people don't.
But there's not really an excuse to say that.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
But also the line was funny.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
It was funny, of course, the line was no good point,
good point, good point, good point, good point. And then
Carrie points out the women cheat too, of course, like
we're saying and that it's different because we aren't driven
by testosterone. But I mean, testosterone to me is like
a very lame reason to cheat. I just feel like,
do you have a brain. Do you have a brain.
I think the answer is yes. Let's use the brain.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
You know, in a perfect world that would be fantastic,
so so true, so true.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
And then so we all have our different you know,
the viewpoints on the cheating. Of course, Charlotte is like, no,
you know, it's not okay, which I agree it's not okay,
but I mean life is complicated, of course. And then
Carrie says, someone's definition of what constitutes cheating is in
direct proportion to how much they themselves want to cheat,
which is pretty funny, yes, and very relevant I think
(25:36):
to the Big conversation, because that's that's kind of part
of her struggle with Big. You know, there was the
scene in the first season where he tells her he
has a work thing and then she sees him out
to dinner with a woman after she's spent like eight
days at home with him, which to me, I would
just I would just be done, I think. I mean,
(25:57):
I don't really know, I guess, but you know what
I'm saying. I mean, that seems a struggle. That seems
a struggle to me. That's part of why I didn't
like Big in the beginning. But it's okay, I'm working
through it. Then we go back to Carrie's apartment and
(26:21):
she's sitting writing and like a torn T shirt and
or underwear, Like it's so quintessential. I feel like this
is the phase of the show where we're really solidifying
certain kind of elements of what will be known as
iconic in the show. We don't really know that at
(26:42):
the time, of course, but like you know, we're I think,
feeling bolder about our choices. You know, she's sitting there,
she's not glamorous, but she's also not totally clothed. It's
very intimate. It's her thoughts, you know. I just there's
so many things that I love about it. So she's
sitting there writing and she's wondering, was Samantha right, is
(27:06):
cheating like the proverbial tree in the forest? Oh? This
is so good that that it doesn't exist if there's
no one around to catch you. Is it a gravity
free world of anything goes? And what constitutes cheating? Really
good questions, yes, and really hard to answer. Even still
absolutely I agree. What do you think I mean, does
(27:28):
it matter if no one catches you? I think it matters.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Well, I think it matters if you are someone with
any kind of conscience.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
You know, yeah, that doesn't mean you make that doesn't
mean you won't do it, but real.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
But you'll feel bad. It'll be an issue for you.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
You'll carry it. I mean, you'll.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Carry it, you know, whether you get caught or not,
whether you get caught or not. Absolutely I agree with one.
So then we see Samantha. She goes to the gym.
She has this kind of adorable thing with this big
beefy guy. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Well he was the trainer, right, he was the trainer, and.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
She was training with the trainer and she gets him
to train her, and it's kind of very h you know,
sexually laiden at the gym. And then more happens later,
and it just made me laugh because man, I relate
to all that stuff. Don't get me started. They were
back with me in the galleries the next morning, and
you guys come to get the painting, which is adorable,
(28:26):
and I find out that you're no longer a couple,
but you're good friends, which I really like. And this
is so true when you look at gay women, I think.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
And gay men too.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Gay man two, that's right, Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, I mean, and it may not be always the case, right,
but certainly I have friends who have remained friends with
their exes and good friends with their almost members.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Right, yeah, I love that so much, And what a
perfect world that would be if we could all be
like that. And that's when you guys out me up,
asked me up for drinks. And this is when I
go out all night and dance, I think, and I
make wonderful new friends, which is really fun. And then
Miranda's on this day with this guy Ethan. Oh my
good lord, so they're oh, I just love this scene
(29:13):
there walking down the beautiful village streets at night and
he's talking in depth about shoah versus Schindler's List, and
she has the absolute most serious face and she is
quiet for like an entire block, which literally never happens
with Miranda, Like she just has no expression on her
(29:34):
face and nothing to say, as this guy rattles on,
rattles on, rattles on, but passionately rattling on. And then
she just kisses him, which is so cute and very
innocent in a way. And then they end up back
in his apartment. They're making out, making out, and then
he turns on the TV onto a porn tape, as
she calls it that, and he says this, it's okay,
(29:58):
and she's like sure, and then come to find out
that this is like a deal breaker for him, that
it must have porn. But yeah, I think this whole
thing is funny because at that point in time, I
don't think that porn had kind of reached the you know,
kind of common ground that it is now, where like
porn you're just like, oh, yeah, porn, you know what
(30:20):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, it hadn't happened yet. Like this guy had porn tapes,
he had ready in his TV. And what he later
says to her, which I think is kind of heartbreaking
and sad, when she's like, no, I want you to
be having sex with me, not these women on the television,
and he goes, well, but I just met you, and
some of these women on the television I've had relationships
with for years.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
He just feel bad for that guy. Yeah, yes, he
has a porn addiction.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
He totally has a porn addiction, and it's kind of pathetic.
But at the same time, there are so many people
who have relationships that are are you know, virtual if
you will, Yeah, you know on that level.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
You know, I know it was ahead of it's time
that episode.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I think it really was. It really was.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
It was really like so much so that you have
to think back, like, oh yeah, porn used to be
like shocking exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
And you know what, I'm going to digress for a minute.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Just go for it.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Go back to the cheating part. What I also loved
about the exploration of cheating was that Carrie felt like
she was cheating on her friends with Big, you know,
and that that's another that was just another little nice nuance.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
About I know. I love that too, absolutely, yeah, absolutely,
and I think it's so good. The confession scene, which
we're coming up on pretty soon, well, first word, we
have Carrie at Biggs, which, oh my god, this scene
I love so much. She's cooking for him, which is
not her thing, and he's got that black turtleneck on,
and this is like very This is a theme that's
(31:58):
going to go on for quite time with them, like
into the movies where you know, they cook and they
dance at one point, do you remember this, Like it's
so beautiful to see the first version of it, and
they both look so great and you can tell because
you know when you've broken up with someone and then
you get back together. It's like so fantastic in the beginning,
you know, just look at them, you know, like she's
(32:20):
just looking at him with just such passion, and you know,
but she's trying to keep a lid on it, but
it's like so good. It's just I thought it was
fantastic and so great to see them. And he also
is just so much more fun than he used to be,
Like it's so much more relaxed, you know, And so
I was pleased for her. I feel like please for
Carrie in the scene. But but oh yeah, there all.
(32:42):
Then we do quickly kind of get back to her
trying to get him to say something, which of course
he doesn't want to basically do what I mean, which
is kind of annoying. And and I mean, I guess,
like you said, she has chosen to go back, so
it is you know, she is more kind of aware
of her choices and that she is going to get
(33:04):
in here and try again. But I'm also like, oh lord,
because the whole debate is should they go out in public,
should they tell their friends? She says, should they make
it official? She says, well, what are you going to
tell your friends? And he says nothing like she's an idiot, right,
because of course he's not going to talk to his
friends about her. And she goes, oh, right, because you
have no friends, which I thought was a very good comeback.
(33:24):
And then he goes, well, what would you want me
to tell them? Like it's all very familiar. I have
to say, guys.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
You know, yeah, yea.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
So then we have this scene walking Oh god, oh
this is so good. She's walking on the street after
she was at Biggs and she runs into Miranda and
at seven in the morning, oh.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yes, the Walk of Shame. Yes the walker.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Shane fully lies to Miranda that whole scene, and I
was like, wow, First of all, I can't believe Miranda
fell for this.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Well, I was going to say, right, and I was like,
did she really buy that? Really?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
I know, I know, I know, I know I felt
the same way. I mean, I think it's because I
think it's because so sometime has passed, right that that
Carrie has not been with Big, So we wouldn't be
thinking like, oh big, you know what I mean, and
Randa wouldn't be thinking oh big. But I think Miranda
would have been thinking like someone else, like of.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Course you're coming from somebody's apartment.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
You're not coming from the dentist, like really.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
And you're not on your way to the dentistam no.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Like it's crazy. It's crazy, but it's kind of adorable
also at the same time. And of course Miranda has
her poor an addiction boyfriend on her mind, so she
talks about that. Then we go to Samantha. This scene adorable.
His name is Thor the trainer, and the trainer basically
says that that he doesn't that he's never slept with
(34:48):
the client before. This is a fantasy of his, and
she's like, oh, fantastic. And then he says, you know,
let's shower because I think they've just come from the gym, right,
So they go in the shower. He's washed her legs,
which is quite fascinating, and then he says, are you
a dirty girl? And they got to Kim and she
has just the best look on her face. She just
(35:09):
looks up. She's like, well, that depends how you define it,
I guess, And then he said and then she says, oh,
had I known we were going to be doing this,
I would have shaved my legs something like that. And
he goes, oh, well, you know, I can do that,
like it seems very organic how it happens.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
You know.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
So he's shaving her legs, which she seems to find sensual.
I have never let a man shave my legs. I
was I'd be scared they were going to cut me.
I mean, I was like, wow, she's very trusting.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Well, I never thought of it as as four plays,
So no, no, I would think of it as for
play or even just like something that I would be like, oh, yes,
go ahead.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
I don't think I would do that. I don't think
I would do that. I would be very scared that
I would have a lot of cuts on my legs
and uh, private parts. Because as he goes up, he's like.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Specially right, yes, I mean.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Geez lo wais. So he's going up and he says
something like, you know, I don't even know if he asked.
He just keeps going and she looks like it's exciting,
which I'm just like, joh, I'm scary. So we find
out later cuts a lightning bolt into her pubic hair.
And the thing that I love the most about this
(36:19):
is that she then goes and talks to Miranda and
carry about it. I guess carries in the bathroom at
her apartment, but she's telling Miranda about it, and she
says something to the effect of, you know, this is
a big thing now. People are really you know, changing
how they take care of that area down there, And man,
is that an understatement? Like this was the beginning, okay
of that whole waxing situation that we went through for
(36:42):
quite some time, and then I thought it went away,
and then it seems like it's back. I'm not really sure.
I would love for some young ladies to tell me
how they feel about it on the Instagram page. So
(37:03):
she's telling they're in Carrie's apartment. Oh god, I forgot
about this scene. Carrie's in the bathroom, she's not coming out.
Samantha and Miranda are discussing this the shaving situation, and
then I show up in my headband and and also
a weird tube top. I'm like, whoa, so nineties very rare,
(37:26):
very rare. I have a code over it, thank god.
And at a certain point, Carrie has not come out
of the bathroom, so they're like, uh, what are you doing?
Is everything okay in there? And she says, no, actually not.
You know, I have this new diaphragm and it's stuck.
I remember this so well because there was a lot
of stress about this. There's a lot of conversation and
stress if this would ever happen in life. I believe
(37:46):
that one of the writers did have a story that
it was based on, which was always our thing that
the writers had to have some personal experience or a
friend with personal experience for it to be considered plausible,
I mean enough to be in the show. Were there advocating, yes,
this could happen. And so it is decided that Samantha
will be the one to go into the bathroom and
(38:07):
help her, and all of us are like, oh yeah,
you know, I have like a crazy look on my face,
and then it's over. But it was really something that
people do seem to remember, and I think it's really
funny and great. You know. Yeah, I don't know, I
don't know if it's realistic or not, but I think
it's funny and great.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Well, it's like, you know, what will your friends do
for you?
Speaker 1 (38:27):
That's right, that's exactly right, that's right, and they should
do whatever you need. And Samantha is there for her,
you know, that's right. Yeah, So then we walked down
the street and it's one of the first walk and
talks that I remember, with all four of us walking
multiple blocks and having an important scene, and that came
to be also a staple and so hard to do
(38:49):
because everyone has to be perfect in the master and
that might take many many blocks, and you have to
walk and then you have to stop and go back
right and do it again, and you have to hope
that no one drives by and honks at you. And
usually it's the wee hours you know that we're doing those,
which is why there's like no especial.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Times square yeap, which is where that scene takes place.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Exactly exactly, and you couldn't generally. I don't remember this
particular time, but I remember later on we filmed the
I'm Square and you couldn't start till ten or eleven
at night. They wouldn't give you a permit. So that's
when you're beginning those scenes, that's right. So we would
be there, oh night, oh the night long, all the
night long, all the night long. That was the job.
(39:31):
So this is when she Carrie confesses to us that
she was with Big and we all stop and we're
just like what and we say, all kinds of really funny,
funny things she tells them about Big. They get upset.
We say our opinions, he's an whole I say that.
I say carry he was such an ould to you.
So I'm like, yes, Charlotte, Yes, that's great. And then
(39:53):
we say, you know, why are you sneaking around behind us?
And then Carrie walks away because we're so upset. And
then she goes back to apartment and she says, the
problem is my friends are right, and you see her
walking back and forth kind of struggling inside herself with
the fact that she knows that we're right, but that
doesn't mean that she doesn't want to do it, which
(40:13):
I think is so relatable. Obviously, we all do things
that we are not one hundred percent about, but we're
still driven to do them. That's her life is. Then
we go to Charlotte going to that very very fancy
mansion with that crazy statue with all the lesbians, which
I love so much. And I'm sure that this Patty Aston,
(40:35):
who's supposed to be like the Queen Bee of the
power lesbians, I'm sure she was based on someone, but
I don't know who. I think Darren wrote this episode.
I should check back. I'm pretty sure Darren wrote it.
And I love it. I love everything about it that
she's you know, so powerful and so rich and it's
only women in this place, right, love it. And then
I finally meet Patty and then oh, tell your ride.
(40:57):
It's not veil, it's tell your ride. And they're like, oh,
her house, and tell your it's so amazing, and I'm like, oh,
I'd love to go, you know, because I'm just like, yeah, yeah,
I want to be a part of this group. And
then Patty asks if I'm gay. That's a very funny
way that my producers wrote this down. And Charlotte says
that I'm not, and then I say, you know, but
(41:17):
I just love the company of all the women and
it's so safe and warm, which is so true. It's
so true. And then Patty's just like, no, if you
don't eat the pea, he can't be in the group, basically,
and Charlotte looks really sad. Then oh, poor Samantha goes
to the steam room at the gym and there's a
(41:37):
naked lady in there with a lightning bowlt shaped into
her private area, and lady is all mad and she
gets up and she says he's such antole or some
such and then you know, Charlotte, Samantha realizes that, yeah,
she it was all an act on this trainer's part.
He was just going through all the clients, right. Never
(41:58):
a good feeling even for Samantha. The Then Miranda is
back at the porn guy and she's decided that she's
had enough. She asked him to turn it off. This
is when she says, it's either them on the TV
or me, and he says, you know, the ladies on
the TV I've had a relationship with for years. And
(42:18):
it's just kind of sad. And she leaves and he
turns the TV back on.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yes he does.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Gosh, I wonder what happened to him. Then we cut
to this beautiful scene with Carrie and Big and they're
dancing and I don't know where they're dancing. It's such
a glorious like old School.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
That's a supper club that was such a staple in
New York City.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Absolutely great, so great, beautiful, and they're dancing beautifully. There's
not many people there. It's kind of intimate, and she's
talking again about how, you know, are they seeing each
other again? Officially, and he's like, what does it even mean?
And then he says, well, why don't you tell me
why we broke up in the first place? And she
(43:01):
says this great monologue that he doesn't hear, but we
here the audience hears about how, you know, could he
ever love her the way she wants to be loved?
You know, it's really deep. But then she says, but
I but I took the easy way out, and I said,
I guess I was afraid, right. I thought that was
so good and I feel like I have done that
(43:22):
in life so many times. You're basically putting it on yourself,
you know what, it's actually questions you have about them.
You're making it seem like it's your own, your own issue.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, you're responsible.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Right, You're responsible for it. And it's about your you know,
lack of strength or or you know, insecurity, your insecurities absolutely,
which kind of hurt me to watch that. And then
then he says, but I did miss you a lot,
and that seems to make her happy, you know, And
(43:58):
then she says, did you cry, which I love so much?
He says, no, but I did listen to a lot
of Sinatra.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Right right, right, right right right.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
So like the thing that I think about it is
like that is his way of answering. That's what he
can do, you know what I'm saying. He can't cry,
and he certainly can't tell her that he cried, but
he can tell her I listened to a lot of Sinatra, right,
that is who that man is, right right right, and
she wants to be there with him exactly, And I
(44:31):
think that's good. So I love the episode so much
and I just think, I just think it's beautiful, like
and so, you know, there's like such a kind of
an innocence about it, you know, even though we're dealing
with these topics you know this, you know, porn this
and that and shaving public pubic areas, you know whatever,
(44:54):
like things like this, But at the same time, there's
like a like a sweetness about it that I I
love to see and it takes me back to kind
of the newness of it all because a show, you know,
it's nice, it's a good one. I'm so happy that
you were on it with me.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
I was so happy to do it. It was it
was a pleasure. It was such a joy to do,
so much fun.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
It was so much fun.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
I know. I wish Uchreloe could have just been a
little bit bolder and stayed in that group a little
longer somehow.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
But you know, one thing we miss. One of the
friends asked her if she told the lesbian she was
not a lesbian, and she was like, well, you know, no,
it doesn't matter what the right right?
Speaker 1 (45:37):
I love that, No, I know, and they're so right
where they're like, no, you need to tell them you're
leading them along and she looks like, what I can
actually be leading women along? And wait? Also, doesn't Miranda
have something really funny where she says like when I
was fourteen, I kissed this girl blah blah blah and
it was really fun. I was like, oh my god,
did we remember that? And just like that, I don't
(46:00):
think we did, because yes, there was something there. Should
have taken Miranda to the Power Lesbians party. Little did
we know where we would all be going many years later.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Many years later, so many years later later, which is
so fabulous.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Congratulations to you all.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
You know you we're so lucky.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Yeah, I mean you never thought, you know, when you
first signed on to that show, that the legacy that
is created.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
You know, we never would have dreamt.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yeah, never amazing.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
It is amazing, and we're so thankful to the fans really,
you know, because we could have gotten canceled. I mean,
anything could have happened.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Yes, you know, this business, I mean, even if the
show was popular, if new leadership comes into a company
and they decide, well, that's not my baby, you know,
I want to put something else there.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
You know, you're out.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
So true, it's really been through many a leadership.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Also, yes, so that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
It is, it is, it is. And also I just
remember so many things about like you know, like I
remember there was a time where they said, you know,
you're the show's not going to make it to syndication,
partly because we were HBO, which didn't have a track
record in this way, and partly because they said, you know,
women led shows don't travel. And then we became this
(47:24):
huge international.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
Yes, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
There's so many rules, so cold rules that we ended
up breaking, thank god, and then they very quickly forget.
And then the next thing comes along and breaks and
they're like, oh my god, and they're like no, you guys,
Like there's this, and then there's this, and then there's this,
like oh my gosh. But it's hard to change things.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
It is, but something always comes along.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
I mean when you say that, you know, I think
about Black Panther, and I think about the myth of
how you know, black lead films, et cetera, Yeah, don't
do well internationally or whatever, you know, and then Black
Panther comes along and just blows it up out of
the water. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
And then look at Cinners and now.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Centers and now Centers and now Centers, you know, which
is just incredible.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
And then again they're like, oh my god, and you're like, no, not,
oh my god, like.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
It's a surprise, you know. Unfortunately, what we have and
have had now is.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
We don't need to necessarily rely on the marketing departments
of the studios because that's where black lit things or
women let things get stuck because they don't put the
finances behind marketing it, you know. And so now that
we have social media and the word of mouth is
now you know, digital and all over the world, then
(48:43):
you know, they're not necessarily in control anymore how a
film or TV shows received, because the audience really.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Has the steering wheel. So I think that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
I think that's a really good point I think the
thing that's still frustrating to me is when you're pitching
the things.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
They're like.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Yes, and you're like you guys, come on.
Speaker 3 (49:03):
And that boils down to leadership, who's making the decisions,
you know, and getting more women, more people of color
in leadership positions who can green light stuff.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
As we know, as we And also there is the
thing now too where you can also make your own thing.
It may not be in such a huge way, right,
but as a calling card, as a way to get
your foot in the door. You can create your own
content in one way or another.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
Absolutely, and people are doing it now with their cell phones.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
So yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. All right, I like
that happy note to end on. It's been so great
having you.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure going
down memory lane with you.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
It was a pleasure. I love to see you, sending
love to you in New York. Continue on. I will
be watching thank you.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
Actually I'm in Atlanta because you're in Atlanta. Yeah, I'm
shooting the new Daytime drama Beyond the Gates. So that's
what's keeping me here.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Yes, amazing, are you baking?
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Baking? It's a thousand degrees.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Yeah, I'm from South Carolina, so my mom has been
keeping me updated on the temperature.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
Well, the temperature is the same here as it is
in New York right now.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Oh wow, yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
It's like one hundred degrees. It's one hundred degrees in
both places.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Oh my gosh. Well I would never know. You look
fresh as a daisy.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Thank you that I'm in their conditioning.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
I love it, love it, love it. Well, good luck
on this job, fantastic, thank you, thank you so much,
thanks for being Oh good, good good. I look forward.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
Okay, so next time, yes,
Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are
you a Charlotte? Everyone welcome. We have the amazing Tamara
Toney joining us. She plays one of Charlotte's power lesbians,
and you will know her from Law and Order Special
Victims Unit. She played the medical examiner and she did
(00:25):
two hundred and thirty episodes. Wow. She's also been on Broadway.
She's a director, actor, an incredible person. Such a joy
to have you. How are you doing.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm fantastic and thank you for having me? And yes, pleasure.
I love that episode and I just love saying power lesbian.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I know right, It's fun, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It's fun.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
It gives you a whole sense of like why Charlotte
was interested in trying to pretend to be one?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
You know?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yes, still feels that way today. I love your hair.
Can I just say thank you?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Incredible.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I appreciate it. It's its natural state color and curl.
And I'm just happy that I put away the die
bottles and going on naturrel.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I dream of that.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Someday.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Someday I will do it as well. Are you still
playing that same character on all of those SUV and whatnot?
Law and Order.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
No, no, no, no. I haven't done Law and Order
for a few years now. A couple of years now,
I did twenty three.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Seasons unbelievable, I mean as the same character, correct.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
As the same character.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
But however the past two years I did pop over
into Chris Maloney's version of SBU Organized Crime as Melinda
Warner with my natural hair color.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yes, that's amazing. I mean, how wonderful and rare and
what a joy that you've gotten to span all of
those different iterations.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Of Absolutely, I mean, and it's not unlike your show
in that it's the gift that keeps on giving, and
I am very very grateful for that.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Absolutely, Absolutely, I love that. I love the You're kind
of just the quintessential New York actor, where you know,
you've had these incredible opportunities on these incredibly New York shows.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Absolutely, And the beauty of being in New York also
is while I was doing Law and Order as THEU,
I was also doing As the World Turns Back in
the Day and at one point appearing on Broadway and
Julius Caesar all at the same time, and only in
New York City can an actor do that.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Incredible wow. I mean, it's just a that's just like
a dream.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
It is. It is it's a pinch yourself moment, you know.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Well, I do know, I absolutely know. And that's one
of the things that we have loved so much about
doing our show in New York. Not only is New
York a character, as everyone always mentioned, but you have
access to these incredible actors, and especially in the beginning
of the show, you know, it was another show added
because there were the soaps, the old, old fashioned, old
standing soaps. Then there was a phase like in the
(03:13):
late eighties nineties of sitcoms. You remember there was like
Michael J. Fox to say yes Cosby of course you
know previously, but that was kind of would come and go.
And I don't feel like sitcoms lasted. They were. They
moved more to Los Angeles for a while, and then
of course Law and Order started, which started you know,
(03:33):
many versions and SVU, you know, so many versions and
so many actors employed there, which was wonderful. But we
were a comedy that got to come in single camera
comedy as opposed to the sitcom. But the level of
actor who's available to come onto the show was so high,
you know, so impressive.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Absolutely. I mean, come on, it's New York City. It's
the cream of the.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Crop, right, and you know those shows like Sex and
the City, like Michael J.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Fox's shows, and even the soap opera. I mean, most
of us in New York City.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Come for theater, and you know, theater just doesn't afford
you the opportunity to you know, pay for your lifestyle
in New York City. Right, So then all the film
and television, of course was I always considered it like
the subsidy in order for me to do my theater.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Absolutely, absolutely, and such a dream for any actor.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Absolutely, yeah, no question.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
What do you remember before we actually recap the episode,
what do you remember about coming on the show? Like,
had you seen the show? Did you know the show
at the time that you came on?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Okay, of course, who didn't know the show? Right?
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Well, because it was early days. It was early day.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Season season two, right, it was season two, and yes,
and so of course you know the show was a juggernaut,
and you know, everybody loved the show and everybody knew
about the show. And I just remember remember, you know,
coming to read for the role. I remember it distinctly,
coming to read for the role and sitting outside the
(05:07):
casting office and Sarah Jessica kind of coming through to
go on her way somewhere, you know, and how she
stopped and said hello to me and to whatever other
actor was out there with me. There weren't a lot
of us hanging up, you know, but you know, she.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Stopped and said hello, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
And I just thought, yeah, that's classy, you know, nice
and you know, and that's what I do. So I
love that that's what she would do. So that was
that was my first encounter, right. So then you know,
coming onto the set and then meeting you, and the
first scene was in that art arts gallery and you
know that was on location somewhere down and soho right
(05:49):
as I recall, and then meeting you and you with
your charming sweet self you know who you know, just
like Charlotte is just a deer. Yeah, and you were
so warm and welcoming and you know, we just had
such a great time shooting it.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
So and then you know, I.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Just loved the I just loved the reveal of the
power lesbians right and under, you know, underlined by your
voiceover when you wear our backs are looking at some
artwork and then we turn and we so good.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, but you know, it was incredible.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
It's good, it was so good.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
I had forgotten that part. I remember the episode for
for a few obviously very odd reasons. One is that
I got to wear flat shoes, which was like so exciting, okay,
a loafers loafers, which I still have, Okay, and I
was just like beyond excited, and Pat let me wear pants.
But that was also very unusual. So I was having
(06:48):
just the most relaxed and best time hanging with the ladies.
And then I loved the idea of the story. And
I think that, you know, people think of Charlotte, especially
in the beginning, as being this prude, and I of
course understand why compared to some of the other characters.
But at the same time, she's so open, you know,
and she's really wants to, Like she says numerous times
(07:10):
during the episode, it's just so great to be surrounded
by this energy and not have to be worrying about men. Yes, okay,
I love that so much, and I personally feel the
same way.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Absolutely, And I'm sure so many people can identify with that,
you know, so many women can identify it with that
it's just a different vibe being around women, especially just.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
All women, you know.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yeah, so yeah, so it was really cool and not
concerned about men or talking about men. You know, I'm
sure it was very refreshing.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
For sure, it was great. And then it's just kind
of so sad when the super super powerful okay Cawa
lesbian asks her if she eats you know what, and
she was like no, and she goes, well, you know,
then you're never going to get to what does she say,
You're never going to get to come to veil or
something like this, which is literally like you can't hang
(08:01):
with us, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I mean, are we allowed to quote what you can?
Speaker 1 (08:05):
You can't. I am Charlotte. So it's hard for me
to say you can't say whatever you want tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Because it was a total drop the mic line, I mean,
and it was out of nowhere and it like cut
to the chase and she said basically because Charlotte, Charlotte
was saying, oh, you know, I just love being a
wild woman and it would be so great to come
and hang out with you on fail and you know,
et cetera, et cetera, And basically she said, listen if
you don't eat pea, you're not a dyke, and what.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
That's right, that's right, that's right. I love that you
can't say either. It's so exciting to me, I know,
because you think you can, and I know that this
is also how it is when you're acting right, Like
so many times I would have some crazy line to
Charlotte when she's like trying to say something to the
girls that has happened, and I would just.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Be I know, you get that little stutter.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, twenty five years later, it's still true. And I
had Meghan d Stellion on and she doesn't say the
pe word right, And I was like, well, you have
a whole song, and she said, but that's when I'm rapping.
It's like a different personality.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
It's a persona. That's right.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Isn't that funny?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Because if I were the character, I would so easily
it would just flow off my tongue.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
But of course, right right now myself was.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Like, I know, me too, me too, me too, which
is why it's great that I play Charlotte. But I mean,
it is funny. It is interesting and funny. And someone
said to me. I went on another podcast. We were
talking about my podcast and Rewatching, And one of the
reasons that I wanted to rewatch is to see what
was still true in terms of the themes and the storylines.
(09:40):
Was still true in twenty twenty five versus when we
did it in nineteen ninety seven onward. And a lot
of things are still true. And occasionally there's things that
we got wrong or that aren't true anymore or whatever, right,
but there's so many things that are still true. And
one of the things that someone said to me was,
you know, thank goodness that the show came along and
freed women to speak more freely, and don't you think
(10:04):
that that's why women can speak more freely now? And
what I said was, I do. I do think that.
Obviously we were a cultural thing. I get that, but
I also feel in my gut that you know, those
old rules were ready to fall, yeah, and we were
just at the right time, you know, we were like
speaking something that was already kind of happening.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yes, I agree, I totally agree, or.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
It wouldn't have been such a big, you know thing,
Like I think it was a timing. And that's totally ridiculous,
you know.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Because if the social climate wasn't right at that time,
you all wouldn't have been able to get away with
what you were able to get away with.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Right, totally, yes, yeah, I mean I do.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
So, yeah, I totally agree with you, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
And I do think it's interesting that still here you
and I are many years later can't say the P word.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
That's just because that's how my mama raised me.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I mean, yes, my mom would be like shocked, you know,
which was a stress in the beginning of the show,
because she'd be like, oh am, I gonna like this
week and I'd be like, yeah, no, mom, don't watch
it right.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Right right, you know.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
But at the same time, my mother would tell you
I cussed like a sailor. So you know, we all there,
we all live in complexity.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah, well put, well put. I also think it's you know,
what you're comfortable with, Like some things you might be
comfortable within, some things you might not be in. That's
as it should be, right.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yes, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
All right, that was fun. That was kind of fun.
I like that. All right, let's dive in. Let's dive in. Okay,
So this episode is called The Cheating Curve and it
is directed I believe it's the first episode directed by
John David Coles, who ended up doing I want to
say five or six. Maybe you guys could look that
up for me. He did a number of episodes and
he was a really fun director. I don't know if
you remember him so well.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I do remember him. He was wonderful.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, and he does that incredible thing. I had forgotten
that the show begins with the power lesbians, which I
love so much, and the scene that you were talking
about the reveal, where you know, you see this empty
gallery and it looks a lot like the gallery we're
using in and just like that, but I can't imagine
that it is, but it looks very similar, and the
gallery is filling up with art and filling up with
(12:19):
people slowly. And so just because giving the voice over
about Charlotte, you know, doing a art opening, and that
this particular art opening surpasses a regular you know, wine
and cheese cracker thing because it is a lesbian artist
and the power lesbians are there, at which point you
guys turn into camera and as you said, strutforward and
(12:41):
it's just so powerful and fantastic.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yes, yes it was.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
It was amazing, And you know what, I also loved
because I'm a director as well. And what I really
loved is, as you said at the top, it was
an empty gallery and the way it was peopled where
people just started appearing. First there was one person, then
there was set five person, then there was more. And
it wasn't like they walked in the room, you know.
It was like the magic of yes of filmmaking.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, where they just magically appeared. It was cool, it
was really hot.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
It's interesting because this in my mind, our first season,
nothing had aired right, so we were just kind of
working in a vacuum. We didn't really know what we
were doing exactly. We had a tiny budget, you know,
compared to later on, and we didn't really have such
strong directors in a way, like we had a lot
of kind of indie film directors. I remember them being
(13:44):
like someone who had the hot movie at Sundance or whatever.
And second season we start to get other HBO directors
like Alan Coulter who had been the episode before he
came from Sopranos, John David Cole's and here friends. We
started getting kind of more seasoned, not in ass necessarily
episodic TV directors either like a kind of cut above
(14:04):
you know that HBO was kind of cultivating these relationships
with these directors, and they really made a mark each one.
And the way they shot the chefs, you.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Know their style and absolutely and you can see it,
you can really.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Definitely, definitely, And I think it's so interesting because we
don't always think of or talk about the directors. We
talk about our writers so much because obviously there are
also our executive producers and very close to us and we're,
you know, intimately involved in all of it. But our
directors also, especially in the beginning, really made a mark
and John Davicole is definitely one of them. And one
(14:40):
of the things I love was is out of order.
But when I so, I go out afterwards to the
bar and he films through like a keyhole.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
He filmed through a p.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
And this is that word I can say because it
is the proper word for it. It was like a vagina, right.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Ah way, yes, look at it? How did I look
at it? And it was like.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I'm so dense and so.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Yeah, and you remember I'm dancing, and I remember him
really having some very specific ideas about how I should
dance because I was kind of going to do the
kind of like Charlotte goofy dance.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
But he wanted me to do this kind of slow
dreamy dance. And I feel like he shot it in
slow Moe, which was very cool. And you're such a creative,
very creative. And I remember anytime way back then that
we had anything dancing related, even like tangentially dance ish.
Sarah Jessica would get our choreographer to come in because
(15:49):
she was so nervous because it was like her Broadway self, right,
like she read direction like specifics, right, yes, yes, Oh
my god, I'm seeing a picture.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
See I'm seeing a picture of what do you think.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
I totally see what you're saying. Oh my god, it's
pinkish red too. I don't know how.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I missed that.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Good lord, good Lord, that's hysterical.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Go date John David Coles, really hysterically funny wows. Sometimes
I'm very Charlotte. That's a very Charlotte moment that I
didn't realize that. I'm sure I was so nervous about
the dancing that I just wasn't even like paying attention.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Well, I don't even think we saw it. I mean
I didn't. I didn't see it.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Until it aired, So I don't even know if you
saw what was being shot at that cool.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
I feel better. I feel better, yes, yes, because I
was not aware. I was not aware for sure. But
go him. You know, that's a great idea. I love
it so much. It's very brilliant. Okay, I'm going to
get back to my paper and try to rewatch. Sometimes
it's just more fun to talk. So we were at
the art and then oh, then, okay, it's funny because
(17:00):
they cut to Miranda, who's everyone's at my art opening.
That's how the show starts, right, And Miranda's with this guy,
Ethan Watson, who is a documentarian, and we're just gonna
go into some funny places. And Samanda sees her a
guy from her gym there and wants to go pick
him up, which she of course successfully picks him up.
And Carrie wants to leave because she's going somewhere she
(17:21):
doesn't want to tell us where, and she is going
to Bigg's house. And the thing that I love about
this when I rewatched first season, all my listeners know this.
I was kind of horrified by Big because he is
so withholding to Carrie and I hadn't remembered any of
that Also, it was the nineties and I think we
as women were just very used to this, you know,
withholding men. Wasn't like something that we would necessarily think about.
(17:43):
So from twenty twenty five you look back and you're like,
oh my gosh. But what I love about second season
is number one, I feel like he's much more out
of his shell. They have broken up, they're kind of
slightly getting back together now. I find it's so charming
and much more like in terms of just in the
moment with Carrie. But also I love the voice over
(18:05):
here because as she's sneaking out to go back to Biggs,
she's saying in her voice over that she doesn't want
to tell all of us because she feels bad about
it because she knows it's a bad decision because he's
a withholding man. And I'm like, yeah, see, we just
need to name it. And I feel better now that
it's just straight out like that's who he is. Let's
just admit that's who he is. We know this is
(18:26):
not smart. That doesn't mean she's not going to do it.
We all do stupid things.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Well, also, we all you know, it's kind of like
if you know, if you know what you're getting into
and you choose to get into it.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Then you know that's empowering too, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yes, it's because it's like you can always choose not
to absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
I think that's why I like that she's naming it like.
It's not like she doesn't know, right, you know, she's saying,
I know this is stupid. I know this man may
not be able to give me what I want, but
I'm going back because we have this incredible, incredile do
connection and I'm so drawn to him. And whatever she
says in her voice over, it's, of course more eloquently
said that I just did. But I had such a
(19:07):
sigh of relief. You know, Yes, I look better now. Yeah,
I can get behind this now. In a way, that
first season I felt a lot of anxiety watching it,
you know, but of course I know where it goes,
but still in the moment, I was feeling too anxiety.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
And let's not let's not forget that Big is incredibly
handsome and sexy, so let's just not forget.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
That part one and definitely now okay. I think that
was my other issue was when I looked back at
the first season, I didn't really feel that because he's
so pulled back that I was like, She's she's so
giving an emotionally present, and I feel like he's not
even sexy to me because he's so covered.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
You know, well you know for me, I mean for me,
yeah tomorrow, you know, I wouldn't waste my time with that.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Kind of you. They would waste my time.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yes, you know, for Carrie, it was what she needed
for whatever reason she needed it.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yes, absolutely absolutely, I think for me at the time,
and again complicated by the fact I was playing Charlotte
and Charlotte was always pro big So as an actor,
you don't really give it a critical thought if your
character's not giving in a critical thought, you know.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Absolutely yeah, And you can't judge your character. You can't
judge a character night. You can't judge a character. Your
character make choices and you figure out as an actor
how to support those choices. But that's right, stand in judgment.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Right, Definitely, not definitely not so. I did not give
any kind of critical thought to the Big Carry relationship.
But I do love in this episode once she does
confess to us, Charlotte is like what I was like,
Oh yay, yay, I'm so glad because a lot of
this I don't remember. I remember some things, and then
some things I have no memory, and I'm really just
kind of genuinely getting to rewatch it again, which is
(20:54):
so much fun because it's so good. So then we
go back to the gallery and uh oh yes, yes
I'm talking about the power lesbians. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
and I sell out the gallery, which I have never
done in my whole life. So Charlotte is doing well
at her job because of the ladies, which I love
so much. Oh and then I go back to the
storage room and find my you know, kind of eh
(21:17):
date making out with this young model, which is so ick,
but I think that also fuels Charlotte's whole like I
don't even want to deal with men around these powerful women.
Exactly makes perfect sense, perfect, perfect sense. Then we go
to the flea market. This is a scene that I
remember so vividly, and yes tell me, and this.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Is the scene that I love.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Oh do you tell me what you love?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Well, this is exactly where I was going because I
love the conversation about what is cheating?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah, what I remember about it. I think it's a
fantastically written scene. I loved every bit of it. I
love everyone's point of view. But the thing that I
remember about and as an actor, this is also John
David Coles making his mark. It's a very scene. We're
at a flea market, We're looking at things we were
always trying to be realistic, which is sometimes really hard
(22:07):
as an actor. Then we sit down on the bench
and have the more in depth conversation that's begun as
we're looking at elements of the flea market, and he
is able to shoot that conversation on the bench, which
is not easy. But the hardest part was the flea
market part, because I remember it was this very elaborate
dance where you know, different ones of us would move
(22:28):
forward at different times, and Alan Culture remembers kind of
starting this trend with us of like find the lens,
which is hard when there's four of you and then
extras right very mixed, and you're having to like, oh, yeah,
I have to move over here so that I'm ready
to lean my head forward when my line is ready,
and not slow down, right because Michael Patrick never wanted
(22:48):
you to slow down because it kills the comedy, right.
I remember that being like, oh can we do it?
You know, what I'm saying, Like, when I look back,
I'm like, oh, we're doing it. We're doing it, We're
doing it, you know. But it was David Cole is
really kind of upping the game of how to block
those scenes so that it's not boring.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
You know.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
And it's a dance. I mean, it's choreography right at
the end of the day, right.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yes, And so I love. Then they sit down on
the bench and then everyone has an excellent point to make,
which is that cheating is a very subjective thing, and
of course Samantha, Samantha. Everyone keeps reminding Samantha, like, well,
you think the cheating is fine because you cheat, And
she can't really argue with that, which is interesting.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
She doesn't say a word. She she just SIPs her
her lemonade or.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
She rips her glasses off. At one point says something
which also I was interested because Carrie and Samantha keep
their sunglasses on, and Brandon and I don't have her
sunglass on. But I think it's because the sun is
behind our head and they couldn't open their eyes looking
at us, you know, those days you're just like I
can't open my eyes exactly. And then when she has
(23:58):
some important line and she them off, you know, because
they're large, like glamorous sunglasses, and I remember all of
that a lot. But so we sit down and Samantha says,
men cheat the same reason why dogs lick their balls,
because they can. It's part of their biology, which you know,
I think that people do, still kind of feel and
(24:20):
I just feel like that is like such a cop out.
I agree, wouldn't that be true for women too? Like
why can't women cheat?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Well? And of course women do, of course.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, Like it's such a weird, like outmoded kind of
a thing to say. I feel like, I mean, everyone
can cheat, and some people choose to and some people don't.
But there's not really an excuse to say that.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
But also the line was funny.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
It was funny, of course, the line was no good point,
good point, good point, good point, good point. And then
Carrie points out the women cheat too, of course, like
we're saying and that it's different because we aren't driven
by testosterone. But I mean, testosterone to me is like
a very lame reason to cheat. I just feel like,
do you have a brain. Do you have a brain.
I think the answer is yes. Let's use the brain.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
You know, in a perfect world that would be fantastic,
so so true, so true.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
And then so we all have our different you know,
the viewpoints on the cheating. Of course, Charlotte is like, no,
you know, it's not okay, which I agree it's not okay,
but I mean life is complicated, of course. And then
Carrie says, someone's definition of what constitutes cheating is in
direct proportion to how much they themselves want to cheat,
which is pretty funny, yes, and very relevant I think
(25:36):
to the Big conversation, because that's that's kind of part
of her struggle with Big. You know, there was the
scene in the first season where he tells her he
has a work thing and then she sees him out
to dinner with a woman after she's spent like eight
days at home with him, which to me, I would
just I would just be done, I think. I mean,
(25:57):
I don't really know, I guess, but you know what
I'm saying. I mean, that seems a struggle. That seems
a struggle to me. That's part of why I didn't
like Big in the beginning. But it's okay, I'm working
through it. Then we go back to Carrie's apartment and
(26:21):
she's sitting writing and like a torn T shirt and
or underwear, Like it's so quintessential. I feel like this
is the phase of the show where we're really solidifying
certain kind of elements of what will be known as
iconic in the show. We don't really know that at
(26:42):
the time, of course, but like you know, we're I think,
feeling bolder about our choices. You know, she's sitting there,
she's not glamorous, but she's also not totally clothed. It's
very intimate. It's her thoughts, you know. I just there's
so many things that I love about it. So she's
sitting there writing and she's wondering, was Samantha right, is
(27:06):
cheating like the proverbial tree in the forest? Oh? This
is so good that that it doesn't exist if there's
no one around to catch you. Is it a gravity
free world of anything goes? And what constitutes cheating? Really
good questions, yes, and really hard to answer. Even still
absolutely I agree. What do you think I mean, does
(27:28):
it matter if no one catches you? I think it matters.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Well, I think it matters if you are someone with
any kind of conscience.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
You know, yeah, that doesn't mean you make that doesn't
mean you won't do it, but real.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
But you'll feel bad. It'll be an issue for you.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
You'll carry it. I mean, you'll.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Carry it, you know, whether you get caught or not,
whether you get caught or not. Absolutely I agree with one.
So then we see Samantha. She goes to the gym.
She has this kind of adorable thing with this big
beefy guy. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Well he was the trainer, right, he was the trainer, and.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
She was training with the trainer and she gets him
to train her, and it's kind of very h you know,
sexually laiden at the gym. And then more happens later,
and it just made me laugh because man, I relate
to all that stuff. Don't get me started. They were
back with me in the galleries the next morning, and
you guys come to get the painting, which is adorable,
(28:26):
and I find out that you're no longer a couple,
but you're good friends, which I really like. And this
is so true when you look at gay women, I think.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
And gay men too.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Gay man two, that's right, Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, I mean, and it may not be always the case, right,
but certainly I have friends who have remained friends with
their exes and good friends with their almost members.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Right, yeah, I love that so much, And what a
perfect world that would be if we could all be
like that. And that's when you guys out me up,
asked me up for drinks. And this is when I
go out all night and dance, I think, and I
make wonderful new friends, which is really fun. And then
Miranda's on this day with this guy Ethan. Oh my
good lord, so they're oh, I just love this scene
(29:13):
there walking down the beautiful village streets at night and
he's talking in depth about shoah versus Schindler's List, and
she has the absolute most serious face and she is
quiet for like an entire block, which literally never happens
with Miranda, Like she just has no expression on her
(29:34):
face and nothing to say, as this guy rattles on,
rattles on, rattles on, but passionately rattling on. And then
she just kisses him, which is so cute and very
innocent in a way. And then they end up back
in his apartment. They're making out, making out, and then
he turns on the TV onto a porn tape, as
she calls it that, and he says this, it's okay,
(29:58):
and she's like sure, and then come to find out
that this is like a deal breaker for him, that
it must have porn. But yeah, I think this whole
thing is funny because at that point in time, I
don't think that porn had kind of reached the you know,
kind of common ground that it is now, where like
porn you're just like, oh, yeah, porn, you know what
(30:20):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, it hadn't happened yet. Like this guy had porn tapes,
he had ready in his TV. And what he later
says to her, which I think is kind of heartbreaking
and sad, when she's like, no, I want you to
be having sex with me, not these women on the television,
and he goes, well, but I just met you, and
some of these women on the television I've had relationships
with for years.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
He just feel bad for that guy. Yeah, yes, he
has a porn addiction.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
He totally has a porn addiction, and it's kind of pathetic.
But at the same time, there are so many people
who have relationships that are are you know, virtual if
you will, Yeah, you know on that level.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
You know, I know it was ahead of it's time
that episode.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I think it really was. It really was.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
It was really like so much so that you have
to think back, like, oh yeah, porn used to be
like shocking exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
And you know what, I'm going to digress for a minute.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Just go for it.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Go back to the cheating part. What I also loved
about the exploration of cheating was that Carrie felt like
she was cheating on her friends with Big, you know,
and that that's another that was just another little nice nuance.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
About I know. I love that too, absolutely, yeah, absolutely,
and I think it's so good. The confession scene, which
we're coming up on pretty soon, well, first word, we
have Carrie at Biggs, which, oh my god, this scene
I love so much. She's cooking for him, which is
not her thing, and he's got that black turtleneck on,
and this is like very This is a theme that's
(31:58):
going to go on for quite time with them, like
into the movies where you know, they cook and they
dance at one point, do you remember this, Like it's
so beautiful to see the first version of it, and
they both look so great and you can tell because
you know when you've broken up with someone and then
you get back together. It's like so fantastic in the beginning,
you know, just look at them, you know, like she's
(32:20):
just looking at him with just such passion, and you know,
but she's trying to keep a lid on it, but
it's like so good. It's just I thought it was
fantastic and so great to see them. And he also
is just so much more fun than he used to be,
Like it's so much more relaxed, you know, And so
I was pleased for her. I feel like please for
Carrie in the scene. But but oh yeah, there all.
(32:42):
Then we do quickly kind of get back to her
trying to get him to say something, which of course
he doesn't want to basically do what I mean, which
is kind of annoying. And and I mean, I guess,
like you said, she has chosen to go back, so
it is you know, she is more kind of aware
of her choices and that she is going to get
(33:04):
in here and try again. But I'm also like, oh lord,
because the whole debate is should they go out in public,
should they tell their friends? She says, should they make
it official? She says, well, what are you going to
tell your friends? And he says nothing like she's an idiot, right,
because of course he's not going to talk to his
friends about her. And she goes, oh, right, because you
have no friends, which I thought was a very good comeback.
(33:24):
And then he goes, well, what would you want me
to tell them? Like it's all very familiar. I have
to say, guys.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
You know, yeah, yea.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
So then we have this scene walking Oh god, oh
this is so good. She's walking on the street after
she was at Biggs and she runs into Miranda and
at seven in the morning, oh.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yes, the Walk of Shame. Yes the walker.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Shane fully lies to Miranda that whole scene, and I
was like, wow, First of all, I can't believe Miranda
fell for this.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Well, I was going to say, right, and I was like,
did she really buy that? Really?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
I know, I know, I know, I know I felt
the same way. I mean, I think it's because I
think it's because so sometime has passed, right that that
Carrie has not been with Big, So we wouldn't be
thinking like, oh big, you know what I mean, and
Randa wouldn't be thinking oh big. But I think Miranda
would have been thinking like someone else, like of.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Course you're coming from somebody's apartment.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
You're not coming from the dentist, like really.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
And you're not on your way to the dentistam no.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Like it's crazy. It's crazy, but it's kind of adorable
also at the same time. And of course Miranda has
her poor an addiction boyfriend on her mind, so she
talks about that. Then we go to Samantha. This scene adorable.
His name is Thor the trainer, and the trainer basically
says that that he doesn't that he's never slept with
(34:48):
the client before. This is a fantasy of his, and
she's like, oh, fantastic. And then he says, you know,
let's shower because I think they've just come from the gym, right,
So they go in the shower. He's washed her legs,
which is quite fascinating, and then he says, are you
a dirty girl? And they got to Kim and she
has just the best look on her face. She just
(35:09):
looks up. She's like, well, that depends how you define it,
I guess, And then he said and then she says, oh,
had I known we were going to be doing this,
I would have shaved my legs something like that. And
he goes, oh, well, you know, I can do that,
like it seems very organic how it happens.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
You know.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
So he's shaving her legs, which she seems to find sensual.
I have never let a man shave my legs. I
was I'd be scared they were going to cut me.
I mean, I was like, wow, she's very trusting.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Well, I never thought of it as as four plays,
So no, no, I would think of it as for
play or even just like something that I would be like, oh, yes,
go ahead.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
I don't think I would do that. I don't think
I would do that. I would be very scared that
I would have a lot of cuts on my legs
and uh, private parts. Because as he goes up, he's like.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Specially right, yes, I mean.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Geez lo wais. So he's going up and he says
something like, you know, I don't even know if he asked.
He just keeps going and she looks like it's exciting,
which I'm just like, joh, I'm scary. So we find
out later cuts a lightning bolt into her pubic hair.
And the thing that I love the most about this
(36:19):
is that she then goes and talks to Miranda and
carry about it. I guess carries in the bathroom at
her apartment, but she's telling Miranda about it, and she
says something to the effect of, you know, this is
a big thing now. People are really you know, changing
how they take care of that area down there, And man,
is that an understatement? Like this was the beginning, okay
of that whole waxing situation that we went through for
(36:42):
quite some time, and then I thought it went away,
and then it seems like it's back. I'm not really sure.
I would love for some young ladies to tell me
how they feel about it on the Instagram page. So
(37:03):
she's telling they're in Carrie's apartment. Oh god, I forgot
about this scene. Carrie's in the bathroom, she's not coming out.
Samantha and Miranda are discussing this the shaving situation, and
then I show up in my headband and and also
a weird tube top. I'm like, whoa, so nineties very rare,
(37:26):
very rare. I have a code over it, thank god.
And at a certain point, Carrie has not come out
of the bathroom, so they're like, uh, what are you doing?
Is everything okay in there? And she says, no, actually not.
You know, I have this new diaphragm and it's stuck.
I remember this so well because there was a lot
of stress about this. There's a lot of conversation and
stress if this would ever happen in life. I believe
(37:46):
that one of the writers did have a story that
it was based on, which was always our thing that
the writers had to have some personal experience or a
friend with personal experience for it to be considered plausible,
I mean enough to be in the show. Were there advocating, yes,
this could happen. And so it is decided that Samantha
will be the one to go into the bathroom and
(38:07):
help her, and all of us are like, oh yeah,
you know, I have like a crazy look on my face,
and then it's over. But it was really something that
people do seem to remember, and I think it's really
funny and great. You know. Yeah, I don't know, I
don't know if it's realistic or not, but I think
it's funny and great.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Well, it's like, you know, what will your friends do
for you?
Speaker 1 (38:27):
That's right, that's exactly right, that's right, and they should
do whatever you need. And Samantha is there for her,
you know, that's right. Yeah, So then we walked down
the street and it's one of the first walk and
talks that I remember, with all four of us walking
multiple blocks and having an important scene, and that came
to be also a staple and so hard to do
(38:49):
because everyone has to be perfect in the master and
that might take many many blocks, and you have to
walk and then you have to stop and go back
right and do it again, and you have to hope
that no one drives by and honks at you. And
usually it's the wee hours you know that we're doing those,
which is why there's like no especial.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Times square yeap, which is where that scene takes place.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Exactly exactly, and you couldn't generally. I don't remember this
particular time, but I remember later on we filmed the
I'm Square and you couldn't start till ten or eleven
at night. They wouldn't give you a permit. So that's
when you're beginning those scenes, that's right. So we would
be there, oh night, oh the night long, all the
night long, all the night long. That was the job.
(39:31):
So this is when she Carrie confesses to us that
she was with Big and we all stop and we're
just like what and we say, all kinds of really funny,
funny things she tells them about Big. They get upset.
We say our opinions, he's an whole I say that.
I say carry he was such an ould to you.
So I'm like, yes, Charlotte, Yes, that's great. And then
(39:53):
we say, you know, why are you sneaking around behind us?
And then Carrie walks away because we're so upset. And
then she goes back to apartment and she says, the
problem is my friends are right, and you see her
walking back and forth kind of struggling inside herself with
the fact that she knows that we're right, but that
doesn't mean that she doesn't want to do it, which
(40:13):
I think is so relatable. Obviously, we all do things
that we are not one hundred percent about, but we're
still driven to do them. That's her life is. Then
we go to Charlotte going to that very very fancy
mansion with that crazy statue with all the lesbians, which
I love so much. And I'm sure that this Patty Aston,
(40:35):
who's supposed to be like the Queen Bee of the
power lesbians, I'm sure she was based on someone, but
I don't know who. I think Darren wrote this episode.
I should check back. I'm pretty sure Darren wrote it.
And I love it. I love everything about it that
she's you know, so powerful and so rich and it's
only women in this place, right, love it. And then
I finally meet Patty and then oh, tell your ride.
(40:57):
It's not veil, it's tell your ride. And they're like, oh,
her house, and tell your it's so amazing, and I'm like, oh,
I'd love to go, you know, because I'm just like, yeah, yeah,
I want to be a part of this group. And
then Patty asks if I'm gay. That's a very funny
way that my producers wrote this down. And Charlotte says
that I'm not, and then I say, you know, but
(41:17):
I just love the company of all the women and
it's so safe and warm, which is so true. It's
so true. And then Patty's just like, no, if you
don't eat the pea, he can't be in the group, basically,
and Charlotte looks really sad. Then oh, poor Samantha goes
to the steam room at the gym and there's a
(41:37):
naked lady in there with a lightning bowlt shaped into
her private area, and lady is all mad and she
gets up and she says he's such antole or some
such and then you know, Charlotte, Samantha realizes that, yeah,
she it was all an act on this trainer's part.
He was just going through all the clients, right. Never
(41:58):
a good feeling even for Samantha. The Then Miranda is
back at the porn guy and she's decided that she's
had enough. She asked him to turn it off. This
is when she says, it's either them on the TV
or me, and he says, you know, the ladies on
the TV I've had a relationship with for years. And
(42:18):
it's just kind of sad. And she leaves and he
turns the TV back on.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yes he does.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Gosh, I wonder what happened to him. Then we cut
to this beautiful scene with Carrie and Big and they're
dancing and I don't know where they're dancing. It's such
a glorious like old School.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
That's a supper club that was such a staple in
New York City.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Absolutely great, so great, beautiful, and they're dancing beautifully. There's
not many people there. It's kind of intimate, and she's
talking again about how, you know, are they seeing each
other again? Officially, and he's like, what does it even mean?
And then he says, well, why don't you tell me
why we broke up in the first place? And she
(43:01):
says this great monologue that he doesn't hear, but we
here the audience hears about how, you know, could he
ever love her the way she wants to be loved?
You know, it's really deep. But then she says, but
I but I took the easy way out, and I said,
I guess I was afraid, right. I thought that was
so good and I feel like I have done that
(43:22):
in life so many times. You're basically putting it on yourself,
you know what, it's actually questions you have about them.
You're making it seem like it's your own, your own issue.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, you're responsible.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Right, You're responsible for it. And it's about your you know,
lack of strength or or you know, insecurity, your insecurities absolutely,
which kind of hurt me to watch that. And then
then he says, but I did miss you a lot,
and that seems to make her happy, you know, And
(43:58):
then she says, did you cry, which I love so much?
He says, no, but I did listen to a lot
of Sinatra.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Right right, right, right right right.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
So like the thing that I think about it is
like that is his way of answering. That's what he
can do, you know what I'm saying. He can't cry,
and he certainly can't tell her that he cried, but
he can tell her I listened to a lot of Sinatra, right,
that is who that man is, right right right, and
she wants to be there with him exactly, And I
(44:31):
think that's good. So I love the episode so much
and I just think, I just think it's beautiful, like
and so, you know, there's like such a kind of
an innocence about it, you know, even though we're dealing
with these topics you know this, you know, porn this
and that and shaving public pubic areas, you know whatever,
(44:54):
like things like this, But at the same time, there's
like a like a sweetness about it that I I
love to see and it takes me back to kind
of the newness of it all because a show, you know,
it's nice, it's a good one. I'm so happy that
you were on it with me.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
I was so happy to do it. It was it
was a pleasure. It was such a joy to do,
so much fun.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
It was so much fun.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
I know. I wish Uchreloe could have just been a
little bit bolder and stayed in that group a little
longer somehow.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
But you know, one thing we miss. One of the
friends asked her if she told the lesbian she was
not a lesbian, and she was like, well, you know, no,
it doesn't matter what the right right?
Speaker 1 (45:37):
I love that, No, I know, and they're so right
where they're like, no, you need to tell them you're
leading them along and she looks like, what I can
actually be leading women along? And wait? Also, doesn't Miranda
have something really funny where she says like when I
was fourteen, I kissed this girl blah blah blah and
it was really fun. I was like, oh my god,
did we remember that? And just like that, I don't
(46:00):
think we did, because yes, there was something there. Should
have taken Miranda to the Power Lesbians party. Little did
we know where we would all be going many years later.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Many years later, so many years later later, which is
so fabulous.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Congratulations to you all.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
You know you we're so lucky.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Yeah, I mean you never thought, you know, when you
first signed on to that show, that the legacy that
is created.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
You know, we never would have dreamt.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yeah, never amazing.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
It is amazing, and we're so thankful to the fans really,
you know, because we could have gotten canceled. I mean,
anything could have happened.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Yes, you know, this business, I mean, even if the
show was popular, if new leadership comes into a company
and they decide, well, that's not my baby, you know,
I want to put something else there.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
You know, you're out.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
So true, it's really been through many a leadership.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Also, yes, so that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
It is, it is, it is. And also I just
remember so many things about like you know, like I
remember there was a time where they said, you know,
you're the show's not going to make it to syndication,
partly because we were HBO, which didn't have a track
record in this way, and partly because they said, you know,
women led shows don't travel. And then we became this
(47:24):
huge international.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
Yes, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
There's so many rules, so cold rules that we ended
up breaking, thank god, and then they very quickly forget.
And then the next thing comes along and breaks and
they're like, oh my god, and they're like no, you guys,
Like there's this, and then there's this, and then there's this,
like oh my gosh. But it's hard to change things.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
It is, but something always comes along.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
I mean when you say that, you know, I think
about Black Panther, and I think about the myth of
how you know, black lead films, et cetera, Yeah, don't
do well internationally or whatever, you know, and then Black
Panther comes along and just blows it up out of
the water. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
And then look at Cinners and now.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Centers and now Centers and now Centers, you know, which
is just incredible.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
And then again they're like, oh my god, and you're like, no, not,
oh my god, like.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
It's a surprise, you know. Unfortunately, what we have and
have had now is.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
We don't need to necessarily rely on the marketing departments
of the studios because that's where black lit things or
women let things get stuck because they don't put the
finances behind marketing it, you know. And so now that
we have social media and the word of mouth is
now you know, digital and all over the world, then
(48:43):
you know, they're not necessarily in control anymore how a
film or TV shows received, because the audience really.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Has the steering wheel. So I think that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
I think that's a really good point I think the
thing that's still frustrating to me is when you're pitching
the things.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
They're like.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Yes, and you're like you guys, come on.
Speaker 3 (49:03):
And that boils down to leadership, who's making the decisions,
you know, and getting more women, more people of color
in leadership positions who can green light stuff.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
As we know, as we And also there is the
thing now too where you can also make your own thing.
It may not be in such a huge way, right,
but as a calling card, as a way to get
your foot in the door. You can create your own
content in one way or another.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
Absolutely, and people are doing it now with their cell phones.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
So yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. All right, I like
that happy note to end on. It's been so great
having you.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure going
down memory lane with you.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
It was a pleasure. I love to see you, sending
love to you in New York. Continue on. I will
be watching thank you.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
Actually I'm in Atlanta because you're in Atlanta. Yeah, I'm
shooting the new Daytime drama Beyond the Gates. So that's
what's keeping me here.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Yes, amazing, are you baking?
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Baking? It's a thousand degrees.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Yeah, I'm from South Carolina, so my mom has been
keeping me updated on the temperature.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
Well, the temperature is the same here as it is
in New York right now.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Oh wow, yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
It's like one hundred degrees. It's one hundred degrees in
both places.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Oh my gosh. Well I would never know. You look
fresh as a daisy.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Thank you that I'm in their conditioning.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
I love it, love it, love it. Well, good luck
on this job, fantastic, thank you, thank you so much,
thanks for being Oh good, good good. I look forward.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
Okay, so next time, yes,
Host
Kristin Davis
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