May 15, 2025 • 56 mins
Kristin Davis and Sarah Jessica Parker talk fashion! Everything you want to know—from your head to your Manolos.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are
you a Charlotte? Everybody? Hi, welcome back, Sarah, Jessica is
still with us. Here we go. We're just going to
jump right back in. Now, let's go back to you.
It's been on my mind because our industry is in
such a flux again at this moment, and it reminds
(00:23):
me of the flux that we were lucky to start in.
You know, it's similar, possibly more so now, but it's
still interesting to me when So let's go back because
in my mind, what I remember is that you had
fluctuated in terms of wanting to commit before we did
the pilot, because at one point they sent me the
script saying will you read Darren who I know who
(00:45):
I'd done? Melos sent me the script saying, will you
read the script for Kerrie Bradshaw, And I was like, oh,
I know, I.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Are you?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Just like there's just no universe because you remember on
the page she also was not you ended up making
her she was. She was very body and kind of
bigger and X rated and whatnot. I was like, I'm
a little southern girl. I don't know what you're talking about, Darren,
I was like, with this other one, yes, this one
over here, yes, yes, but that I believed, and I
(01:17):
might have called him to discuss and he has said
at that point, I think, you know, we really want
Sara Deska Parker, but she's not sure about committing. And
I was like, oh my god, these guys start Parker
because I was such a fan.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Thank you. I don't know how I don't recall. That's
not that it didn't happen. I just don't recall it
taking a long time. I do recall Pippen, my oldest brothers,
and Matthew reading the script, the pilot script, yes, and
both of them saying absolutely, you must, you must do this. Well,
thank I know I always to get and then to
(01:50):
Matthew if I if I was conflicted or didn't know
or was just wondering about them. So I think my
conflict happened like post doing it, when I had to
really be held accountable for my for my own commitment
to it, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Well, also that there was that big contract. There was
a big contract.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
See, I don't think that. No, So when Chris don't
mine was that wrong? Yeah, Like I don't, I know
for a fact I did not sign a seven year contract.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Wow, good for a five year. I signed seven.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I don't think I can signed a five year, but
I could be corrected, I really and if I did.
I always felt that there was an out of freedom
in there. You know that nobody would want anybody to
be someplace that wasn't good for everybody.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I think Chris believed that, yeah, And I think Chris
was unusual in that way.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I think he ran his business. I think he and
Carolyn and mister Bucus, I feel like they all felt
like we're all going to agree if it's not good,
or if it's not holding it, if it's not holding
us all together in a way that we're excited about.
So however many i'd be curious. I'll ask Kevin. I
never I know it wasn't seven.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
And I'm not sure if it was five?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Got it? I mean, for me, I was like, yes,
sign my life away four women walking around New York City.
I am in. I will try my best to pull
it off. I'm not sure if I can. Beautifully, You're
so sweet. I'm having, as you know from listening so
many epiphanies watching the first season. But I want to go.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Back and ask you.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Okay, so Matthew, so we've filmed the pilot. I think
they had a year and a half because the cable
contracts were really long. I think they had a really
long time to decide.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Oh, they had the time to decide, right.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Unlike networks, where you were beholden to the fall season
and it was like very much a pickup.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, like a grid season. Right, do your pilot a
deferment for college or like, exactly do you like me
or not? I'm confused?
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Exactly. Yeah, So you had there was a grid like
for for regular pilot season in LA and we were
outside that grid because we were also remember when they
were like, we're a cable network and we don't have money.
Do you remember that?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
So interesting?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
That remeded itself over time, thank goodness, but it took
a while. Uh so we we you had we filmed
in New York. Of course, you were incredibly generous and
lovely to me. Do you remember the Dunkin Donuts? No? Sorry,
the Christy Kreme.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
I only because you told the story.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I have told that story over the year because for
me it was like such a moment that is seared
in my memory for so many reasons, because you know,
I had been on these network shows, right, I had
guest started on The R and Seinfeld and then Dune,
Melrose and all very much like traditional television shows, different sitcom,
single camera, blah blah blah. But they were, you know,
(04:42):
a certain way, and here we are already outside that
box in a wonderful, wonderful way of like, you know,
where are we filming. We're in the apartments, we're in
you know, we're walking down the street. We're wearing some
crazy shoes that I kept walk in. Oh my god,
you know any things, right, But also I had been
a fan of yours, you know, member Honeymoon Vegas, and
(05:02):
you know Ellie's story, like, oh fantastic, you know so
many things, and I thought you were had such an
intelligence no matter the part like elle story, you don't
look at that and go like, well, that character on
the page is really intelligent. You brought that, you know
what I'm saying. You brought that with you. And I thought,
this is a part that is so perfect for her
because she isn't an obvious Bombshelley type person like I
(05:24):
remember when I talked to Darren about it and told
him like I can't possibly play Carrie Bradshaw because he'd
written the body of Heather Lockley with the mind of
Dorothy Parker.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
And he's like, oh my god, right, oh my god, Well,
no one could be that. That's like a fantasy. Yeah,
I know, a human being.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
I would make. Oh come on, baby, Oh my god.
You haven't rewatched the show, My love You need to
one day, one.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Day at one time, let alone twice.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Okay, we're gonna get to that in a second. It's
revelatory to rewatch the show, My Lovely. I need to
tell you this. And someday if you ever get sick,
which you really don't, but maybe if you're sick one
day you could rewatch. Because I really have. It's like
a therapeutic situation to rewatch the show for me. Yeah,
and I am literally blown away by you every episode.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Oh my god, Kristen, I'm not kidding. I am like
I was.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
We were obviously so in it, you know, we were
so in it, and it was so challenging time wise,
and you know, I felt like it was very elevated
for me. It seemed very elevated in terms of the
quickness of the dialogue in this Stu. Yeah, so all
of that was encompassing me fully and I wasn't like objective.
(06:45):
I remember waiting for the VHS type tapes.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah yeah, and like really like wow, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
But also in my mind I had somehow felt the
first season was like not maybe our best right right right,
because like we want, we had very lofty goals, yeah,
and things to work through and discover that they weren't
going to be helpful, right yeah, not true? Okay, first
season wow wow wow.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
What was interesting about that is someone if anyone ever
asks me what my favorite episode is early, I don't
really remember most of them, but for some reason I
always say value of the twenty something. Oh, it's so
good because for some reason, that script, which I didn't
realize is Michael Patrick's first script I know, which I
(07:31):
did not put together. And when I said, I thought, oh,
he thinks I'm trying to solicit some kind of like
favor with him by saying that, but I wasn't. But
it to me that was like the best, the best
of what we were hoping to achieve without saying it, yeah,
like we didn't. I don't recall anyone standing around discussing
(07:56):
a standard or an idea of what the show should
be tonally, and that script to me tonally is like,
it's very dark. She goes to and forgive me, I
don't remember everybody's storyline, so I'm sorry, I'm not gonna
mention other characters. But then it gets like buoyant. It's
(08:17):
this other weird thing happens, I believe, with a crossword
puzzle and fifth Avenue so good, and I feel like, wow,
you let her kind of literally go to a basement literally,
and it's dark in the basement. And then the preceding
(08:39):
story is it stays kind of dark even though it's funny.
And he is so terrific. It's Timothy Oliphant. I believe,
it's amazing, so great, probably one of his first Jobs's amazing. Yes,
And we're in a tight space. We're always shooting in
these tight dark spaces and I don't know where are
pretty need attention, you know, they all neglect and like that.
(09:02):
And then she's walking down the street and everything on
her as I recall it is all used. It's all
from Aina's on Thompson Street. There's nothing on her. I
don't even know if her shoes were new, Like everything
on it was one hundred bucks are less, hundred bucks
are less, and I'm trying so hard to give it
a kind of this viv like a kind of a thing.
(09:23):
And then she pops by and she is walking past
not the maybe the Pierre Hotel, and I think it
is she's walking north on Fifth against the traffic, I
always like to say. And she sees himself and that
the grumpy guy, Yeah, a friend who's actor guy, and
she just corrects his crossword puzzled with a glove on.
(09:46):
And I think there's like some writing implement there. And
I just thought, like, yeah, I don't remember the first season.
And I always would assume that, like there were big
mistakes made and things we got wrong, and that we'd
let go and like you toss them aside. But that
Valley of the twenty something was like as good as it,
you know what I mean, just in terms of like
story and how everybody did their job. I agree, and
(10:09):
the kind of the the arcs of the up and
the down, which I think is really well put. But
I would also say to you, and then we're going
to go back to this other thing, but also going
to say to you, oh, come all, ye faithful the
end so good. At the end of the.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Season, the first season and you go to the church
to see.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Oh, come all you Faithful's the end of season one.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yes, can you believe that?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I'm could? I think you know what I'm I'm confusing
that with our sailor show post.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Sorry exactly No. I also I'm like, wait, what happens
in Come all ye faithful? Is about faith and relationships?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
She's good a church.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
She sees him outside church. She's just walking down the
beautiful street with his mother by Mary and Seldy's yes, incredible.
And you see them coming out of church and you're like,
you're across the street and you're and he comes over, like,
what are you doing here? Now? Let me also just
say while we're here, like, Big, it's kind of a jerk,
is he?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yes? Izzy?
Speaker 1 (11:10):
She said, Now this is something that was really news
to me in some ways because I was always team Big,
because I think Charlotte was always team Big. And also
I just don't remember like being objective about it all right,
Like I didn't think like, should I be team Big?
Is he withholding? Is she too good for him? I
(11:30):
never thought about these things. We were just in it,
you know, what I'm saying. I liked in it, you
liked all of it so interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
I'm not a team. I'm not. I have no teams.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Of course you have no teams, but I'm not trying
to be exists, right, So there's no teams at this point.
I hadn't gotten there yet. But I think the interesting
thing for me because the other reason, the first reason
I wanted to do the podcast was because I wanted
all of us to talk about coming together and to
actually get to share our stories that now relate to
this thing that has outlived what we ever dreams possible. Right.
(12:03):
But also I love to think about the themes and
the way that we start in the relationship issues and
themes and how they are now today. Are they the same,
are they different? I love to think about that, right,
because it is really interesting. So one thing that I
think about when I watch it is that Big is
really withholding and he does something that they is now
(12:24):
a word breadcrumbing. He gives you, like just enough to
keep you there, Carrie, Carrie, just enough to keep you there,
and you are so I mean, you just break my
heart watching you because yeah, oh my god, because you're
so You're so first of all, you're just so good, right,
(12:44):
you have many many layers going on, and in these
scenes with him where he's like shut down largely, you know,
like there's this scene, there's the episode where it begins
with you and he walking down the street with real
New Yorkers, so many people in the frame, and you
talk about being on an island of seven million people
and sometimes all you want to do is hold still
with someone and it has you and big and these
(13:05):
guys arm around you and you're talking and laughing, and
then you stop and you kiss in the middle, and
it's just a beautiful moment.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
It's so do you know what I'm wearing.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
You're wearing one of your coats?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I know South. It's the It's like a sandy colored coat.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
And no troulu We're not there yet. It's coming. It's coming.
But this is when we were probably in February, right,
or got it cold.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I don't remember this at all.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
I mean, I have no I know it's amazing, but
it's so incredibly good. So you talk about this and
you have been hold up with him in the story
for eight days. You haven't seen us, and you call
(13:52):
I think Miranda, and she's like we thought you were dead.
We were going to send someone to find you. And
you're like, oh no, just been hold up with Big,
like you're very busy in love, do you know what
I mean?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
And then we all you say, oh, but he has
a work thing tonight, so I can see you guys tonight.
So we all go out to dinner. I believe it
like a place that still exists in Union Square, like
Oceana maybe or uh huh, you know, yeah. And I'm
wearing like this wacky theory suit, like stylistically highly entertaining,
but you look great. And we're leaving the restaurant and
(14:25):
Big is in the corner having a dinner with a woman,
and you are so like thinking, this is the work
thing you carry. I know, it's really hard, Okay, it's
really hard. You talk about Carrie as she I talk
about Carrie as you.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I apologize about it. It's not you don't worry about it.
I am not offended, and I mean I'm not in
any way right, but this is it.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
There's another point I want to make about this later,
which is that like sometimes people talk about Carrie and
I'm like, what are you talking about? But that's because
I know you and I can't separate, but I'm just like,
what are you Actually, he's saying, this is not true,
you know, like people with their thoughts and feelings, right,
which we'll get to, but that's because I know you
and I can't SEPs do anyway. You we go up,
(15:10):
and you go up and you're like, hi to big.
The woman has her back to you, and you're thinking,
that's a work thing, and you're just strangely in the
corner of a restaurant with a woman at a work thing,
and he's like, uh, Carrie, and he gets up awkwardly
and you realize, oh my god. She turns and she's beautiful,
and you're like, and we're over there, like what's going on?
What's going on? You know, we're like we're like the
Meda Gallery, like the chorus, the Great Chorus, you know.
(15:32):
So yeah, and then you're here and it's just going
across your face. All the different things are going across
your face, and you're like, yeah, I thought you had
a work thing, and you're just you just break my heart,
like you're so vulnerable but also really trying so hard
to roll with it and make it okay. Yeah, you know,
(15:53):
and then you go out with Miranda and you're like,
maybe he meant no, no, no, no, maybe he meant
And she's like maybe he just you know, she like
cuts you, you know, in the middle, like she has
It's all very interesting. But then you you you have
a few drinks and you go over to his place.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yes, I know it's so much that I don't remember either.
And and you're and you had a few drinks a
double extra special episode of sex and no this was
a regular every.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
No, I'm only talking about you so much. Yes, it's
so much.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
She goes over there, drink, you've had some drinks.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
You go over there, You try to talk to him.
He won't talk to you.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
This is the apartment like of his. It's a beige wall.
So they opened the door and there's just basically they built.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
The wall one flat.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
You know, we haven't even seen his bedroom yet.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Especially we see his bedroom, which is two beige walls.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Do you know what I mean? It's really there was
a red bedroom.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Has a solid red big big We're not there yet,
ye yes, okay, we're not anyone near. Everything is beige.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Everything is at the end of the that says, what
didn't you marry. Somebody said that, babe, we're not there,
so sorry.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yes, babe, but we're not there. But it is interesting.
You paint your apartment a crew at the end of
the season and it's at length and.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
It's that's that's not that's a bad influence meaning meaning
it should have told you do break up with them
at the end.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
You do, you stand up. It's fantastic on the street, babe,
it's so great. What was what was she wearing that
might not be remembering.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
A fantastic outfit.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
You're wearing a beautiful a line skirt because.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You think you're going on vacation, but you also know
you have that's the crane shot that we did on
the stupid. So I think she's that's all thrift shop.
I think there's like a polka dot ape and I've
got a white yes shirt on which no, it's gone,
but I have to say it's good. It works.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
She was ready to go on a holiday, yes, well,
because also you've gone to the church in those crazy
straw yes. Oh yeah, they weren't going to be noticed. Oh,
Miranda in an orange drop a bible. You drop a bible.
It's very dramatic. So that whole episode is incredible.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
So that's so come will you face out? And that's
a season ender yep, And the crane shows up, Yeah, gorgeous. Yeah,
like I think they like to end seasons on a
crane shot.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
And look, now we use crane all the time. Who doesn't.
They're incredible. But that was his early use of a
crane chat because as you remember, it was often handheld
and much more the you know, production value was much less,
much to Michael Patrick's chagrin. But I find it so
charming to look back at.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
You know, I thought I felt I always felt like
it was always it always felt cinematic, like we were
always making a movie. I tried to express that to people,
I tried to convey it. They'd be like, are you
are you taping in New York? And it used to
be such a such a still be in my bonnet,
And I would say, gracefully, we're filming right, me too,
(19:04):
for eighteen hours today and tomorrow, Like we're not a
tape show. It's a point like, it's such a distinct
difference between But I always felt despite the speed at
which we had to work and how much we had
to accomplish and any budget constraints, which were not as
if they weren't being generous. It was just the cost
of doing what we wanted to do. I even though
(19:27):
I know the show got much more decadent, it felt
like a movie. It felt and looked like when I
used to have to watch it, you know. For Michael
it looked cinematic. It looked like film to me. But
I know we were working in a different way. But
I will say when we were shooting on film at
(19:50):
that speed and the volume of pages that we were
shooting a day, we were still you know, pushing freaking
cleagu lights from nineteen forty up and down avenues and
cross streets and small streets. Our crew members were dragging
panna visions and film magazines of film blocks and blocks
(20:15):
and blocks and building track, which nobody builds anymore.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I know.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah, So like all those hot lights were a big
part of it. So it was all there, the production value.
It just had a different look because that's what film,
and that's I think we also forget Michael mind, I
remember we wanted it to look like that. It's too dark.
The pilot.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Oh but I loved her.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
I loved her.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
That was a woman DP pilot was Stuart Dreiberg.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
And then the first was yes, the first love, and
I loved her stuff, loved but I guess it was
a little bit too dark.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
It was too dark. You can't barely see us. But
I love it. And I love the flares you know
on the street the way street lights and Claire on
the Super sixteen.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yes, I mean I love it.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And in comparison to now, obviously it's it's very different.
But we couldn't do what we did then and have
it play on an HD screen, you know just what
everyone has though they have remastered them obviously now.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
But I agree.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
I'm going to backtrack to this thing I want to
ask you about. So we do the pilot. There's this,
in my mind, very long break, because I'm literally waiting
every day, like, please pick us up. Why wouldn't you
pick us up? This is me, of course.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
How long it really was, I think it was like
a year.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
I think they had a year and a half and
they took a year.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Shot the pilot in June of shut the pilot in
June of nineties seven.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
That because you got married, I want to say, in
March I got married May nineteen.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Hey, okay, great in ninety seven, so it was right
after right right. We got married the morning after I
closed once but a mattress, right morning after the twenty
year before you close. Oh my god, because we we're
there for a year. But the thing I don't know
is what our first start date was on season one.
(22:03):
We don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
She should look it up someday, because I thought to
be available.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
I know someone in the room who knows. I mean Arloe.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
The thing that's easy to find is when it aired.
It's not easy to find it.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
When we start aired in ninety eight eight, right, so
in between June of ninety eight. It aired June of
ninety eight exactly. But we'd finished shooting, we had before
we went on the air first episode, so season that's
only six months we must have shot.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I feel like we went in February because remember how
cold it would be and they'd make us pretend like
it wash.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
So that's a very tight air date.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, we didn't seem to care. I don't know. I
don't know. I don't know how we did it now
thinking finished.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, we're not leaving ourselves any room.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
I know.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Wait a minute, so both of us are kind of wrong,
are so if we do, if we look at it
this way, and I want to waste your listener's time. Okay,
So if we shot the pilot in June of ninety
seven and we were on the air and dud of
ninety eight, we couldn't have been on hold that long
because we had to shoot a whole season pot so
we both think it was different than it really was.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
That's probably true. I think for me emotionally, it was
a very long So that's what that is something important
to talk about, Kristin. That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I definitely am not good at waiting, and I really,
really really I was writing on a decision like this,
and everybody has a different relationship to it, like yours
was much more. You went toward it, and my my
reaction to a big decision like that was to try
to run away from it. So that's why I just
turned it off and you kept it on. I kept
(23:37):
it on because you you weren't afraid of doing it.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I wasn't afraid at all, right, I was beyond So
that makes sense because I also knew how different it was,
and I wanted I felt when we you know, when
we started and again this is something that I think
people forget in some ways. And obviously we have our
incredible new audience thanks to Netflix of younger People, which
is amazing and never would have been in our thoughts
(24:06):
as a possibility. There weren't shows that were focused on
women from a woman's point of view in nineteen ninety
seven or before.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Well, there were a few Mary Tidnam Wore of course
that was.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Already made before, right, then Golden Girls, right, Murphy Brown, right,
But these were very different shows and they were spread
over like.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Fifty years to start. Also, of course, not to forget
Marlo Thomas.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Marlo Thomas Girl Yess is what we grew up on, right,
But then there was like a dearth, right, you know,
there was just kind of nothing, and there wasn't anything
that was super super modern in the way that they
had been for their time. So for us and for me,
who I was living in LA at that time, I
had been my poor out of work actor self in
New York. Then I had moved to LA and I
(24:54):
was surrounded by out of work actors and or people
who were working a little bit or whatever, fascinated by
the business, as you know, and so I had some
understanding of how different it was and how special it
was from a perspective of how it was going to
tell the stories and how unique it was that we
would get to film in New York that was a
(25:15):
very big deal, and that you know, this like upper
echelon of fashion, you know, which, to me, I was
just like, oh, what do you mean We're not wearing pantyhose?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I know this was scary for me. I I'm not
wearing pantyhose right, see CC.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
This is this is the origin to you guys.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
So one of the crazy stories that they wrote was
that the producers were the ones who came up with
the rules, and I was like, no, no, or care no.
It was Pat and Sara Jessica with the vision. You
had the vision you know, of how to be a
modern woman in New York. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I think Pat had a very Pat had a window,
like Pat had a window into a world that none
of us knew except for Mollie, who was always always
want to remind everybody, Molly was there from day one. Yes,
they they had a they had their hands in a
world that I knew about. But I was not privy too.
(26:22):
I was not in it. But I definitely knew about it,
like Pat Store on Eighth Street, like I had been
in that store many, many times, many times. It was
it was like what's that phrase, like you know something
you it's like a milestone in your life as a
young kid in New York growing up is like there's
(26:43):
you know, there's five shops you just have to visit.
And then I'm trying to remember there was the one
on the Upper west Side, Alice Underground, oh, Alex Underground,
Pat Store Field Sharavari at the time, and or Parishute.
We're a little bit passed few roucies. That was a
(27:04):
little bit earlier, but still I went there. Definitely certain
things at fifty ninth and Lex Bloomingdale's, which was the
Calvin Klein on only place you to get Calvin Kline
underwear we women at the time. And then a couple
thrift shops down on Broadway, Lower Broadway got it. But
so Pat had this like she touched on you know,
(27:27):
there was a a kind of fringy world that she
was very much a part of that. She was in
many cases godmother too, and so I knew about that
world and she drew heavily from that world. But but
(27:49):
but then there was overlap, like we shared living on
the streets in a certain way, or being invited to
or being observant of. So that's like the places in
which I could be a good partner to her and
or Molly or to any of the shoppers.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Right, you know, right, right, right?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
But yeah, no one, None of the producers ever made
their shows, although I will say that they came and
they had opinions about the board, and that was those
Those were good conversations, you know, and everybody were like
worthy combatants, like everybody, not me, meaning Pat and Molly
and Rebecca a little bit right at the time, yes,
(28:28):
and Darren and then then became Michael Patrick. And every
writer of a script was given the privilege or had
the right to come to those wardrobe discussions and have
their own opinions. And I'm sure you heard. If you
came back, Pat would find you on the said she'd
be like, Jenny says that she doesn't understand this dress,
you know, And then you'd say, but I understand the dress,
(28:49):
and she'd say you shoul talk to Jenny, or Darren says,
And then I'd say, oh, actually I get that. I
you know what it's fine. I get it. I understand
why he A, B and C or why Jenny. And
then sometimes you'd say, I'll talk to Jenny. I'll explain
why I feel like this is right because what's gonna
happen there and there and there? I want to make
sure we have bubbah blah blah blah or I just
(29:10):
love it and I think it will be a treat
and fun because it's not expected because nobody runs around
like that, you know, like all sorts of reasons and
you make your case and you win or you lose,
like so what that's collaborative, Like, that's what true collaboration
is is like not just one winner. No, there's always
somebody who's being heard and seen, like literally like see
(29:31):
the work, see it right, And that's that's good.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Definitely, that's good, good for all the time. And I
do feel in terms of our show then and now
you know, that's why it works is that everyone feels
passionately and I think that's key. And that doesn't mean
that it's always no no no, no roll in agreement.
You know, people are committed and they sometimes don't agree,
but this is what then the finished product is.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Better because of that. Hey, what does Michael Patrick always say,
hate me and hate me and may hate me today
love me and may totally.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Delly, that's a good one. I forgot that one. But
in terms of the fashion, because now we're on that,
but I am going to go back to my thing.
I remember bread crumbs. Nope, okay, interesting too though, Gosh,
(30:24):
so many threat they will come back next next season,
next season. No, we're not there yet. We're gonna talk
about fashion now because we're on it.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
No, I said, I'll come back.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Oh great, yes, next season, come back anytime, baby doors open.
We had to wait to have you though. That was exciting.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Almost we almost got it done. I know we almost
got it done, but then we didn't. It was too
early though.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
We needed to get I feel like I had to
get done with the first season to have a bunch
of thoughts for you to help us with, Okay, to
suss out so the fashion wise, obviously, there became a
time in our show where the fashion was almost like
the reason that we existed, or it seemed to everyone
else like the reason the existed, which I don't feel
like was the idea necessarily. You know, how do you
(31:07):
remember that happening or what was your thought on that happening.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Well, I remember, I remember that Fendy loaned us a bagette,
and up to that point nobody had been willing to
really give us anything. And I'm pretty sure our budget
for the first season was like ten thousand dollars, Like
we had no money. And it was the ingenuity of
(31:37):
Pat Molly and one and Century twenty one and Aina
right and just you know, intrepid digging around, pawing stuff,
going to some warehouses of vinted shops and things like that.
But we didn't have relationships yet. We had like no
infrastructure in the world of proper ziine houses.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
And but can I ask really quick, didn't you personally
already have some of these relationships?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
So I did. I had a few that were substantial,
Like they weren't substantial, but they were like real, They
weren't too flimsy, like I could count on. I felt
like I could make some call or reach out or
write a letter or whatever it was important.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Like the naked dress or so just that was from
your process.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
So I had. I wish I could be certain of
the Manola Blonnic. So I when I was younger and
I was living at the time in southern California, and
I had some friends whose family were involved in retail.
(32:48):
And I don't know if you remember Madeline Gallet and
Gallet on Sunset Plaza a little bit. So their daughter,
Rena Gallet, was a friend of a friend and her parents.
Her father owned Galley and her mother owned Madeline Galley,
and I think initially there was just a Galley, and
then there was a divorce, and then there was a
(33:09):
Madeline Galley, and then there was a Galley, and Galley
was a tiny house of very high end European primarily designers,
like very high end like that. Other one became the
one that's like everybody goes to and spends a million dollars.
That was initially on Doheany and Santa Monica that was scary,
like a dark case with like very expensive things came
(33:33):
and so they were a brighter version of that. And
let's see, Rina invited me. She said there was this
shoemaker coming to town and he was going to do
a trunk show at her mother's store, at Madeline Galleys store.
And it was February in southern California, which I came
to know because I'd been there in February once before
when I was Annie and had visited southern California in
(33:56):
February and it rained the entire time, and it was
puring rain in February. Like I came to understand, that's
what it should do in February, what it used to do,
and yeah, it used to rain, and so I said, yeah,
I'll come to a trunk show of this designer. I
don't think, I'm almost positive she didn't say the designer's name.
(34:18):
But it was fun and it was nice to be excited.
And I had an American Express card and and I
didn't have very much money in the bank and you
have to pay your American Express card off immediately and
it's not good for credit, which is a bummer. But
(34:38):
I went to Madeline gallet store and there was this
designer named Manla Blank and he nobody was there. There
was literally like three of us. It was puring rain
and cold, and you know, really unpleasant when it rains
like that and it's cold, and it's just rain is
so unusual anyway, Like it's such an amazing thing. Like
(35:00):
in London when it rains, it's one thing. Yes, son
of California when it rains, it's one thing. In New
York City when it rains, not to bother at all.
It doesn't matter at all for you. Okay. Anyway, there
was this sweet designer and I thought his shoes were beautiful,
so simple. Nothing I bought and try to remember, I'm
(35:22):
going to say, I bought like six pairs in an
American Express card that I had to pay off right away,
and it was going to be a long time. And
when I did finally get those shoes, when I lived
there and made them, he went off and made them
that trunk show, proper trunk show, where you pick your silhouette,
you pick your leathers, you pick any kind of trim,
(35:43):
et cetera. And he went off and he made them.
And when I received those shoes later, I picked up
the sock liner and they were all signed by him.
It was Renela Blank. So I came to love him,
even though I basically really really couldn't afford it like
I was. It wasn't like I couldn't afford it like
Carrie can't afford it, like I never made those kinds
of choices, like I always paid rent. I always took
(36:04):
care of myself and anybody else you needed taken care of, right,
But so I had that relationship. I had a relationship
at Calvin Klein, which I don't can't figure out how
that started. And Donna Karen I had a little bit
of a relationship. But for the most part we were
that's right, that's right. But still people were like not
(36:26):
tossing us stuff.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
No, no, not at all.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I kind of feel like that was perfectly good and
fine and maybe the best thing that could have happened
to us, because had we had access to more familiar
pieces sooner, it might have eclipsed what we were. Also,
I say we because we got the words and then
we tried to do our best with them. Absolutely, But really,
(36:51):
when I say we, what we were trying to do?
It really want to talk about the writers and what
they They're like, what was the momentum, like the trajectory,
like what were they trying to do? Because they always
had the whole season in mind and I never did.
I was like, not, don't tell me, I don't want
to know. I don't want to know. I don't want
(37:11):
to know. Right, So, had we had everything we ever
wanted sooner, I'm afraid it would have gotten in the way,
because yes, people were curious, and they enjoyed and some
delighted and some didn't at all in the sartorial efforts
(37:33):
of the show and what it was saying and who
we were, because it was really an attempt to really
be those people that we'd heard about, rehd about, knew about,
didn't We didn't have exchanges with those people, but I
certainly knew all about them, right, So we did our
best to tell that story as accurately as we could.
(37:54):
But what people connected to initially were these women talking
intimately about their lives, the intimate part of their lives,
the challenges of being a working woman, sexual politics, love
(38:17):
and how it eludes you. And as Richard Plepler always says,
where is home?
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
And I think if we had had an air mes bag, yeah,
and everything else and all these coveted pieces and straight
off the runway from Paris, I don't know that women
would have had such strong feelings, and men too, for
(38:46):
and against, and the against doesn't push them away, you know,
just because you're angry about a choice of character makes
doesn't mean you're gone in fact, And so I'm grateful
that we were bare knuckling it, you know, and really
having to be like as industrious, like call in favors,
(39:06):
bring clothes from home. How many times did you bring
clothes from home?
Speaker 1 (39:09):
I think the whole first season. I'm wearing my r right.
So they weren't good though, but.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
It doesn't matter, No, you're right, And so maybe it
was a virtuous thing that we were scraping and good thoughts,
you know, working on creativity, calling in favors. I mean,
because Pat certainly had relationships and Molly they they had
(39:34):
their they had their tentacles in the world. But it
wasn't until Fendy loans that bag at was that I.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Think second season, because I don't think I saw one
first season.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I think it was second place the whole.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
First season, really, And there's sometimes when I'm looking at things,
I'm thinking, are that is that? Sir Jessica's do you
remember bringing in clothes other than the naked dress, which
we know came from your own.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
I don't think I brought in what I ended up
bringing in clothes when we had holes and spaces that
were like and I would be like, I might have
a white shirt at home, I might well, you know
what I might have a bag. I might have a sweater,
I might have a cardigan. Little pieces, little pieces, because
she dressed so differently than I did, you know, and.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
So another thing people don't necessarily understand.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yeah, it was very hard to be her from my closet.
I also didn't have a lot of clothes.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
So you have the shoes, but you didn't have a
lot of clothes.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Yeah, and I probably didn't have as many shoes as ever.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Well, listen, if you had six pairs of Nola's from
a trunk show.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
You were aware of, but everyone else and I was
gonna say about those shoes, they were all stolen. Yeah,
it was a real sad story what happened.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
So I.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
I was traveling. It was very unusual year in that
I did. I'm trying to remember how this went. I
did three movies back to back, and the last two
were pocus Pocus and then Three Rivers or what came
(41:22):
to be called.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
With Hugh Grant.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
With Bruce Willis striking the Boats the Boats. A third
movie what was.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
The one with Hugh Grant had brown hair, and I.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Can't remember the name. Medical I'll tell you what it
wasn't called for weddings at a funeral, right, No, yes,
I auditioned for that. I didn't get that, so I
got the other one. But I had, you know how
like when you travel when you're well. When I was
just traveling back to back to back, I'm shooting a
movie in LA And then I went to Pittsburgh for
(42:00):
six months and shot a movie, and I just like
took everything I loved and I had been gifted from
a previous relationship of Chanell's suit. I also had a
Chanelle suit, and yeah, I had like So I traveled
with like all the things that were my favorite, including
(42:20):
Anthony Michaelhall and I had traded a sweatshirt and he
had given me like a Yankee sweatshirt that was so
old you could not believe it. It was the oldest
Yankee sweatshirt I'd ever seen in my life, and I
wore it everywhere. And so I decided that I was
going to see I can't remember if I shot, doesn't matter.
(42:42):
I decided that I was going to be really like
something and only packed to get back to New York City.
When I was done with all the movies. I was
going to FedEx my stuff home because by then I
had accumulated so much stuff. And you know when you
leave a hotel room, there's like papers everywhere in scripts
and you bought this, you have that you have like
(43:02):
presents for friends and families and Christmas presents. And I
was like, I'm going to do that thing that people
do and I'm gonna FedEx everything home. And it was
all stolen. So everything in that was stolen. So sad.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Oh, I know, so sad, but it was sad.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
It was pretty I was stunned. I was like, so
did it ever make it to the drop off point?
And you know, if you don't protect yourself now, I know,
in advance of shipping something, then you're only there's minimal
coverage for it. And I could see. I was like, well,
can let's watch this happen like it it did? It
(43:40):
got to the place okay, So it went to its place,
it's point of origin, and then it just disappeared. And
I was like, you know what if I opened those
boxes and I saw and I you know, the box
that made it back? What the dog stuff? With all
the dog stuff? I found a dog. I got a
dog there in lass Angelus. Yeah, dog at the Beverly
(44:02):
Center that had been in the window over and over
and over and over and over again. It was saddest thing.
So I took it that dog was mynas and all
her dishes, you know, and like papers, like papers that
use scribble stuff at the hotel, like yeah, I all
went and that's the box.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
So anyway, I didn't always have as many shoes as
but but you had a nice amount of shag your.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Toe in the water, right, Whereas like for me, I'd
never heard of Manila Blade. I didn't know how to
say it. Like, I was like, oh my god, you know,
that was my whole life at the beginning of the show,
was like how do I say this? How do I
wear it? Can I walk in those shoes? You know
all of that? Right?
Speaker 2 (44:40):
God, now look at you walk in those shoes.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
I don't know, baby. I almost killed myself. And I
was so cates this last season. I was like, I've
got to go down in the height. You you were
higher shoes than almost all of us. Well that's got
to stop. Okay, crazy just because I'm a crazy person,
Like I know, I had something. I was like, why
am I teeter tottering in those shoes? Because it was
the end of the season and the feet are swollen.
(45:02):
I'm like, why am I still doing this to myself?
Speaker 2 (45:04):
My god?
Speaker 1 (45:05):
And now everyone talks about you running in those shoes,
and everyone asked me, how does she do it? How
does she do it? I'm like, the woman, actually stay
it again. They call action, they call action.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
That's what you do.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
That's what of them. But honestly, you were the one
who like, we could be on cobblestones, we could, there
could be obstacles in your and you're like, I can
do it, and you could, you could, So all of
us were like, we've got to try to do what
she does. We've got to That's my thoughts.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
I feel like I feel like everybody did it. I mean,
I think that's because we were just trying to pull
it off, right, and that's what I was doing. I
mean I think that, you know, I think that it
was pretty familiar for I felt it didn't feel totally
unfamiliar to be navigating like cobblestone and stuff and not
(45:50):
wearing hoes and all that. That. Like, I definitely.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Felt that that was.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
I would almost call it normal, right, It was.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Normal for you because you were very fashionable New York City.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
I never thought my lady that way.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
But but you were you were. I definitely was. I
could understand fish nets and the double fish nets, and
I mean, like so many things. And remember the banana
clip and you know, God forbid. And remember that time
they tried to put me in the big velvet scrunchy.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Do you remember this? You know that big velvet scrunchies
are so in now.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
I know, I know, I do know, but I mean
this was as big as my face. It was as
big as my face. And that guy who tried to
cut my hair, I'm not going to say his name.
He was just around a little bit and you were
just like no, you know, you were very I was like, oh,
thank god, I can go to her. This was my
my light bulb moment of like I can go to
sarth Jusica when they because they would. You know, in
(46:47):
the beginning, we were trying to figure things out right
and for Charlotte, who was very much you know, not
based on one particular person, which I did finally get
get can confer, which was helpful, and Michael Patrick was like,
I don't know how to write for her. And Darren.
I think Darren really did have a vision for her
in the beginning in terms of like the lightness and
(47:08):
the funniness, and you know, he had wanted me to
be funny on Melrose and then he left, and then
they didn't know. They were like, what do we do
with her?
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Right?
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Oh god, oh god, I'm gonna foo every week. It's different.
So for for Charlotte, we got to create her together.
I felt like, but because I didn't really know those women,
I didn't really know this echelon of people or really
that much about them other than what I might have
read in Vogue, you know. And I remember just stalking
the Upper east Side.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Yeah, I heard you talking about that, and it's so
interesting that I think that came in question from one
of your listeners and I was like, oh, that is
so interesting that I didn't know that you were just
parading up and down Matt flloween people. It was such
a smart thing to do, because that is its own world.
(47:53):
I don't know that world as much because I wasn't
part of it. Cynthia didn't live in that part of
the world, right, Those were definitely different like breeds of people.
Definitely so smart of you. But you know, the funny
thing about how you have described, you know, how little
they seem to know what to do with Charlotte, or
(48:14):
how little like source material there was in a way,
or uh, just you know people the admission that they
weren't that Michael wasn't sure that he could write m
it's just you know, I haven't seen the show, so
you're gonna tell me, no, there is a fallow space
like where there's not gonna be the way I've heard
(48:36):
you talk about, You're like you can see or or
you felt that they were like sorting it out in
real time. But the funny thing about that is that
I remember it was totally full like I never thought.
And my guess is that we've talked about this before
that you've reminded me more than once, but I think
I've never heard you talk about it like so completely.
(48:58):
And because listeners are asked sking you questions, you're filling in.
You know, I had the broad strokes, but I never
really thought that it was incomplete. And I think what
I guess what you know, what happened in regards to
your character, I would say with the ambitions, even with
(49:19):
Miranda and Samantha and they were fulfilled, is that I
feel like every year, there was like a sort of
an agreement or Michael once my Michael took over, so
it sort of the second season was like a whole
new approach. Dude, not new approach, but it was now
(49:40):
another year, and I feel like he said to himself
or to and to the writers, Okay, we are taking
off a layer now this year, because you can't just
have archetypal people. You know, it's no good for the actor.
(50:00):
It's not going to be fun for us, and it's
not good for Carrie. It really like fulfilled like the
idea what it needed to do the first season, Like
we needed to understand that Miranda was going to react
this way, and Charlotte was going to react this way,
and Samantha was going to react this way, and that
Carrie could then write about it. And it was always
(50:22):
like the fulcrum for the column, and the column was
the episode. And Michael was like, well, no, you can't,
just you've got to Everyone has to go deeper, everyone
has to go deeper all the time. So what I
think is the first season, as you felt they were pondering,
well what do I do for Charlotte, I think they
(50:48):
took care of it, really, really well, because it feels
to me like I never felt in a scene like
she doesn't have enough meaning, like you.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
Gave it, you fild it up.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
But that's the job, like is to like you kind
of come to the set having to know more than
is being said and like project some more stuff into
it that isn't there necessarily, but it's going to add up.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
It's like scar tissue definitely.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
And so that then Michael and his extraordinary writers just
kept pushing so that so that very I would say
if recollection serves it, like by mid second season, end
of second season, you're having very big everyone's having big storylines,
(51:52):
like it's it's starting to get more independent, like everybody
needs each other, but they they are their lifeline is
not necessarily being reactionary and saying, but you've got to
get married, You've got to believe in love. Like I'm
(52:14):
just summarizing like an archetype, because archetypes are super important,
like they're not tiny. No, And I always wonder anyway
if it's real, like if the whole thing is.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Real, No, don't go down here again.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
You're not gonna say they were a dream blade down.
I just don't know if it exists.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Thirty years.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
Well, it's just a column, you kill me. I love
this so much because that's the case. Isn't that better?
Speaker 1 (52:50):
No, I don't live.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
What do you mean because if Carrie's a writer, oh
my god, this is just a story she's telling. Yes,
it doesn't diminish what happens. It means as much. Okay,
I'm just saying it gives you. You can move at
(53:14):
things differently. If we don't have to apply life rules.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
Do you feel like that's what we did?
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Sometimes we have to?
Speaker 1 (53:26):
Is that what we're still doing? Was?
Speaker 2 (53:28):
It was not a It was an always a slightly
alternate universe. It was always true. In fact, said oh
is this real? And you said absolutely not That New York.
This New York as portrayed, as painted in the late
(53:49):
nineties through the early aughts, was not entirely accurate. It
was heightened. True, was better and worse, much prettier and much.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Uglier in certain ways.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
It was richer and not addressing other things. So true,
it picked. But that's what Candae's columns were true. So
it wasn't law and order and toe tags, right, thank god,
it was purposefully heightened. Right, So when you're creating a
(54:30):
slightly alternate universe. You can ask yourself questions about the
provenance of a character.
Speaker 1 (54:40):
I love that we've actually gotten the whole story behind
something that you said. I think when the first show
was ending that I was like, why is she saying that?
I feel like I've been real more touching. Maybe that's true.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Think about somebody creating a world in which the friendships
were the central nervous system and heartbeat and arteries of
a life, like where somebody was saying, this is the
(55:20):
most important thing is our friendships. This is the thing
that that is life sustaining.
Speaker 1 (55:32):
It's true, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
It's even better than having the good fortune to have it.
If a woman is saying, look, I'm going to choose
to tell this story about these women, it's still like, deeply,
if it's real life, it's what great good fortune, what privilege?
But if it's an imagination, that's cool too.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
It is cool too. You give me many a chills
and got me cheered up, And you guys, we will
be back for another episode of Are You Charlotte
Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are
you a Charlotte? Everybody? Hi, welcome back, Sarah, Jessica is
still with us. Here we go. We're just going to
jump right back in. Now, let's go back to you.
It's been on my mind because our industry is in
such a flux again at this moment, and it reminds
(00:23):
me of the flux that we were lucky to start in.
You know, it's similar, possibly more so now, but it's
still interesting to me when So let's go back because
in my mind, what I remember is that you had
fluctuated in terms of wanting to commit before we did
the pilot, because at one point they sent me the
script saying will you read Darren who I know who
(00:45):
I'd done? Melos sent me the script saying, will you
read the script for Kerrie Bradshaw, And I was like, oh,
I know, I.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Are you?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Just like there's just no universe because you remember on
the page she also was not you ended up making
her she was. She was very body and kind of
bigger and X rated and whatnot. I was like, I'm
a little southern girl. I don't know what you're talking about, Darren,
I was like, with this other one, yes, this one
over here, yes, yes, but that I believed, and I
(01:17):
might have called him to discuss and he has said
at that point, I think, you know, we really want
Sara Deska Parker, but she's not sure about committing. And
I was like, oh my god, these guys start Parker
because I was such a fan.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Thank you. I don't know how I don't recall. That's
not that it didn't happen. I just don't recall it
taking a long time. I do recall Pippen, my oldest brothers,
and Matthew reading the script, the pilot script, yes, and
both of them saying absolutely, you must, you must do this. Well,
thank I know I always to get and then to
(01:50):
Matthew if I if I was conflicted or didn't know
or was just wondering about them. So I think my
conflict happened like post doing it, when I had to
really be held accountable for my for my own commitment
to it, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Well, also that there was that big contract. There was
a big contract.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
See, I don't think that. No, So when Chris don't
mine was that wrong? Yeah, Like I don't, I know
for a fact I did not sign a seven year contract.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Wow, good for a five year. I signed seven.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I don't think I can signed a five year, but
I could be corrected, I really and if I did.
I always felt that there was an out of freedom
in there. You know that nobody would want anybody to
be someplace that wasn't good for everybody.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I think Chris believed that, yeah, And I think Chris
was unusual in that way.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I think he ran his business. I think he and
Carolyn and mister Bucus, I feel like they all felt
like we're all going to agree if it's not good,
or if it's not holding it, if it's not holding
us all together in a way that we're excited about.
So however many i'd be curious. I'll ask Kevin. I
never I know it wasn't seven.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
And I'm not sure if it was five?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Got it? I mean, for me, I was like, yes,
sign my life away four women walking around New York City.
I am in. I will try my best to pull
it off. I'm not sure if I can. Beautifully, You're
so sweet. I'm having, as you know from listening so
many epiphanies watching the first season. But I want to go.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Back and ask you.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Okay, so Matthew, so we've filmed the pilot. I think
they had a year and a half because the cable
contracts were really long. I think they had a really
long time to decide.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Oh, they had the time to decide, right.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Unlike networks, where you were beholden to the fall season
and it was like very much a pickup.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, like a grid season. Right, do your pilot a
deferment for college or like, exactly do you like me
or not? I'm confused?
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Exactly. Yeah, So you had there was a grid like
for for regular pilot season in LA and we were
outside that grid because we were also remember when they
were like, we're a cable network and we don't have money.
Do you remember that?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
So interesting?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
That remeded itself over time, thank goodness, but it took
a while. Uh so we we you had we filmed
in New York. Of course, you were incredibly generous and
lovely to me. Do you remember the Dunkin Donuts? No? Sorry,
the Christy Kreme.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
I only because you told the story.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I have told that story over the year because for
me it was like such a moment that is seared
in my memory for so many reasons, because you know,
I had been on these network shows, right, I had
guest started on The R and Seinfeld and then Dune,
Melrose and all very much like traditional television shows, different sitcom,
single camera, blah blah blah. But they were, you know,
(04:42):
a certain way, and here we are already outside that
box in a wonderful, wonderful way of like, you know,
where are we filming. We're in the apartments, we're in
you know, we're walking down the street. We're wearing some
crazy shoes that I kept walk in. Oh my god,
you know any things, right, But also I had been
a fan of yours, you know, member Honeymoon Vegas, and
(05:02):
you know Ellie's story, like, oh fantastic, you know so
many things, and I thought you were had such an
intelligence no matter the part like elle story, you don't
look at that and go like, well, that character on
the page is really intelligent. You brought that, you know
what I'm saying. You brought that with you. And I thought,
this is a part that is so perfect for her
because she isn't an obvious Bombshelley type person like I
(05:24):
remember when I talked to Darren about it and told
him like I can't possibly play Carrie Bradshaw because he'd
written the body of Heather Lockley with the mind of
Dorothy Parker.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
And he's like, oh my god, right, oh my god, Well,
no one could be that. That's like a fantasy. Yeah,
I know, a human being.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
I would make. Oh come on, baby, Oh my god.
You haven't rewatched the show, My love You need to
one day, one.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Day at one time, let alone twice.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Okay, we're gonna get to that in a second. It's
revelatory to rewatch the show, My Lovely. I need to
tell you this. And someday if you ever get sick,
which you really don't, but maybe if you're sick one
day you could rewatch. Because I really have. It's like
a therapeutic situation to rewatch the show for me. Yeah,
and I am literally blown away by you every episode.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Oh my god, Kristen, I'm not kidding. I am like
I was.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
We were obviously so in it, you know, we were
so in it, and it was so challenging time wise,
and you know, I felt like it was very elevated
for me. It seemed very elevated in terms of the
quickness of the dialogue in this Stu. Yeah, so all
of that was encompassing me fully and I wasn't like objective.
(06:45):
I remember waiting for the VHS type tapes.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah yeah, and like really like wow, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
But also in my mind I had somehow felt the
first season was like not maybe our best right right right,
because like we want, we had very lofty goals, yeah,
and things to work through and discover that they weren't
going to be helpful, right yeah, not true? Okay, first
season wow wow wow.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
What was interesting about that is someone if anyone ever
asks me what my favorite episode is early, I don't
really remember most of them, but for some reason I
always say value of the twenty something. Oh, it's so
good because for some reason, that script, which I didn't
realize is Michael Patrick's first script I know, which I
(07:31):
did not put together. And when I said, I thought, oh,
he thinks I'm trying to solicit some kind of like
favor with him by saying that, but I wasn't. But
it to me that was like the best, the best
of what we were hoping to achieve without saying it, yeah,
like we didn't. I don't recall anyone standing around discussing
(07:56):
a standard or an idea of what the show should
be tonally, and that script to me tonally is like,
it's very dark. She goes to and forgive me, I
don't remember everybody's storyline, so I'm sorry, I'm not gonna
mention other characters. But then it gets like buoyant. It's
(08:17):
this other weird thing happens, I believe, with a crossword
puzzle and fifth Avenue so good, and I feel like, wow,
you let her kind of literally go to a basement literally,
and it's dark in the basement. And then the preceding
(08:39):
story is it stays kind of dark even though it's funny.
And he is so terrific. It's Timothy Oliphant. I believe,
it's amazing, so great, probably one of his first Jobs's amazing. Yes,
And we're in a tight space. We're always shooting in
these tight dark spaces and I don't know where are
pretty need attention, you know, they all neglect and like that.
(09:02):
And then she's walking down the street and everything on
her as I recall it is all used. It's all
from Aina's on Thompson Street. There's nothing on her. I
don't even know if her shoes were new, Like everything
on it was one hundred bucks are less, hundred bucks
are less, and I'm trying so hard to give it
a kind of this viv like a kind of a thing.
(09:23):
And then she pops by and she is walking past
not the maybe the Pierre Hotel, and I think it
is she's walking north on Fifth against the traffic, I
always like to say. And she sees himself and that
the grumpy guy, Yeah, a friend who's actor guy, and
she just corrects his crossword puzzled with a glove on.
(09:46):
And I think there's like some writing implement there. And
I just thought, like, yeah, I don't remember the first season.
And I always would assume that, like there were big
mistakes made and things we got wrong, and that we'd
let go and like you toss them aside. But that
Valley of the twenty something was like as good as it,
you know what I mean, just in terms of like
story and how everybody did their job. I agree, and
(10:09):
the kind of the the arcs of the up and
the down, which I think is really well put. But
I would also say to you, and then we're going
to go back to this other thing, but also going
to say to you, oh, come all, ye faithful the
end so good. At the end of the.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Season, the first season and you go to the church
to see.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Oh, come all you Faithful's the end of season one.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yes, can you believe that?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I'm could? I think you know what I'm I'm confusing
that with our sailor show post.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Sorry exactly No. I also I'm like, wait, what happens
in Come all ye faithful? Is about faith and relationships?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
She's good a church.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
She sees him outside church. She's just walking down the
beautiful street with his mother by Mary and Seldy's yes, incredible.
And you see them coming out of church and you're like,
you're across the street and you're and he comes over, like,
what are you doing here? Now? Let me also just
say while we're here, like, Big, it's kind of a jerk,
is he?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yes? Izzy?
Speaker 1 (11:10):
She said, Now this is something that was really news
to me in some ways because I was always team Big,
because I think Charlotte was always team Big. And also
I just don't remember like being objective about it all right,
Like I didn't think like, should I be team Big?
Is he withholding? Is she too good for him? I
(11:30):
never thought about these things. We were just in it,
you know, what I'm saying. I liked in it, you
liked all of it so interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
I'm not a team. I'm not. I have no teams.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Of course you have no teams, but I'm not trying
to be exists, right, So there's no teams at this point.
I hadn't gotten there yet. But I think the interesting
thing for me because the other reason, the first reason
I wanted to do the podcast was because I wanted
all of us to talk about coming together and to
actually get to share our stories that now relate to
this thing that has outlived what we ever dreams possible. Right.
(12:03):
But also I love to think about the themes and
the way that we start in the relationship issues and
themes and how they are now today. Are they the same,
are they different? I love to think about that, right,
because it is really interesting. So one thing that I
think about when I watch it is that Big is
really withholding and he does something that they is now
(12:24):
a word breadcrumbing. He gives you, like just enough to
keep you there, Carrie, Carrie, just enough to keep you there,
and you are so I mean, you just break my
heart watching you because yeah, oh my god, because you're
so You're so first of all, you're just so good, right,
(12:44):
you have many many layers going on, and in these
scenes with him where he's like shut down largely, you know,
like there's this scene, there's the episode where it begins
with you and he walking down the street with real
New Yorkers, so many people in the frame, and you
talk about being on an island of seven million people
and sometimes all you want to do is hold still
with someone and it has you and big and these
(13:05):
guys arm around you and you're talking and laughing, and
then you stop and you kiss in the middle, and
it's just a beautiful moment.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
It's so do you know what I'm wearing.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
You're wearing one of your coats?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I know South. It's the It's like a sandy colored coat.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
And no troulu We're not there yet. It's coming. It's coming.
But this is when we were probably in February, right,
or got it cold.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I don't remember this at all.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
I mean, I have no I know it's amazing, but
it's so incredibly good. So you talk about this and
you have been hold up with him in the story
for eight days. You haven't seen us, and you call
(13:52):
I think Miranda, and she's like we thought you were dead.
We were going to send someone to find you. And
you're like, oh no, just been hold up with Big,
like you're very busy in love, do you know what
I mean?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
And then we all you say, oh, but he has
a work thing tonight, so I can see you guys tonight.
So we all go out to dinner. I believe it
like a place that still exists in Union Square, like
Oceana maybe or uh huh, you know, yeah. And I'm
wearing like this wacky theory suit, like stylistically highly entertaining,
but you look great. And we're leaving the restaurant and
(14:25):
Big is in the corner having a dinner with a woman,
and you are so like thinking, this is the work
thing you carry. I know, it's really hard, Okay, it's
really hard. You talk about Carrie as she I talk
about Carrie as you.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I apologize about it. It's not you don't worry about it.
I am not offended, and I mean I'm not in
any way right, but this is it.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
There's another point I want to make about this later,
which is that like sometimes people talk about Carrie and
I'm like, what are you talking about? But that's because
I know you and I can't separate, but I'm just like,
what are you Actually, he's saying, this is not true,
you know, like people with their thoughts and feelings, right,
which we'll get to, but that's because I know you
and I can't SEPs do anyway. You we go up,
(15:10):
and you go up and you're like, hi to big.
The woman has her back to you, and you're thinking,
that's a work thing, and you're just strangely in the
corner of a restaurant with a woman at a work thing,
and he's like, uh, Carrie, and he gets up awkwardly
and you realize, oh my god. She turns and she's beautiful,
and you're like, and we're over there, like what's going on?
What's going on? You know, we're like we're like the
Meda Gallery, like the chorus, the Great Chorus, you know.
(15:32):
So yeah, and then you're here and it's just going
across your face. All the different things are going across
your face, and you're like, yeah, I thought you had
a work thing, and you're just you just break my heart,
like you're so vulnerable but also really trying so hard
to roll with it and make it okay. Yeah, you know,
(15:53):
and then you go out with Miranda and you're like,
maybe he meant no, no, no, no, maybe he meant
And she's like maybe he just you know, she like
cuts you, you know, in the middle, like she has
It's all very interesting. But then you you you have
a few drinks and you go over to his place.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yes, I know it's so much that I don't remember either.
And and you're and you had a few drinks a
double extra special episode of sex and no this was
a regular every.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
No, I'm only talking about you so much. Yes, it's
so much.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
She goes over there, drink, you've had some drinks.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
You go over there, You try to talk to him.
He won't talk to you.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
This is the apartment like of his. It's a beige wall.
So they opened the door and there's just basically they built.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
The wall one flat.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
You know, we haven't even seen his bedroom yet.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Especially we see his bedroom, which is two beige walls.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Do you know what I mean? It's really there was
a red bedroom.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Has a solid red big big We're not there yet,
ye yes, okay, we're not anyone near. Everything is beige.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Everything is at the end of the that says, what
didn't you marry. Somebody said that, babe, we're not there,
so sorry.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yes, babe, but we're not there. But it is interesting.
You paint your apartment a crew at the end of
the season and it's at length and.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
It's that's that's not that's a bad influence meaning meaning
it should have told you do break up with them
at the end.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
You do, you stand up. It's fantastic on the street, babe,
it's so great. What was what was she wearing that
might not be remembering.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
A fantastic outfit.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
You're wearing a beautiful a line skirt because.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You think you're going on vacation, but you also know
you have that's the crane shot that we did on
the stupid. So I think she's that's all thrift shop.
I think there's like a polka dot ape and I've
got a white yes shirt on which no, it's gone,
but I have to say it's good. It works.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
She was ready to go on a holiday, yes, well,
because also you've gone to the church in those crazy
straw yes. Oh yeah, they weren't going to be noticed. Oh,
Miranda in an orange drop a bible. You drop a bible.
It's very dramatic. So that whole episode is incredible.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
So that's so come will you face out? And that's
a season ender yep, And the crane shows up, Yeah, gorgeous. Yeah,
like I think they like to end seasons on a
crane shot.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
And look, now we use crane all the time. Who doesn't.
They're incredible. But that was his early use of a
crane chat because as you remember, it was often handheld
and much more the you know, production value was much less,
much to Michael Patrick's chagrin. But I find it so
charming to look back at.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
You know, I thought I felt I always felt like
it was always it always felt cinematic, like we were
always making a movie. I tried to express that to people,
I tried to convey it. They'd be like, are you
are you taping in New York? And it used to
be such a such a still be in my bonnet,
And I would say, gracefully, we're filming right, me too,
(19:04):
for eighteen hours today and tomorrow, Like we're not a
tape show. It's a point like, it's such a distinct
difference between But I always felt despite the speed at
which we had to work and how much we had
to accomplish and any budget constraints, which were not as
if they weren't being generous. It was just the cost
of doing what we wanted to do. I even though
(19:27):
I know the show got much more decadent, it felt
like a movie. It felt and looked like when I
used to have to watch it, you know. For Michael
it looked cinematic. It looked like film to me. But
I know we were working in a different way. But
I will say when we were shooting on film at
(19:50):
that speed and the volume of pages that we were
shooting a day, we were still you know, pushing freaking
cleagu lights from nineteen forty up and down avenues and
cross streets and small streets. Our crew members were dragging
panna visions and film magazines of film blocks and blocks
(20:15):
and blocks and building track, which nobody builds anymore.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I know.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah, So like all those hot lights were a big
part of it. So it was all there, the production value.
It just had a different look because that's what film,
and that's I think we also forget Michael mind, I
remember we wanted it to look like that. It's too dark.
The pilot.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Oh but I loved her.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
I loved her.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
That was a woman DP pilot was Stuart Dreiberg.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
And then the first was yes, the first love, and
I loved her stuff, loved but I guess it was
a little bit too dark.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
It was too dark. You can't barely see us. But
I love it. And I love the flares you know
on the street the way street lights and Claire on
the Super sixteen.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yes, I mean I love it.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And in comparison to now, obviously it's it's very different.
But we couldn't do what we did then and have
it play on an HD screen, you know just what
everyone has though they have remastered them obviously now.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
But I agree.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
I'm going to backtrack to this thing I want to
ask you about. So we do the pilot. There's this,
in my mind, very long break, because I'm literally waiting
every day, like, please pick us up. Why wouldn't you
pick us up? This is me, of course.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
How long it really was, I think it was like
a year.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
I think they had a year and a half and
they took a year.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Shot the pilot in June of shut the pilot in
June of nineties seven.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
That because you got married, I want to say, in
March I got married May nineteen.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Hey, okay, great in ninety seven, so it was right
after right right. We got married the morning after I
closed once but a mattress, right morning after the twenty
year before you close. Oh my god, because we we're
there for a year. But the thing I don't know
is what our first start date was on season one.
(22:03):
We don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
She should look it up someday, because I thought to
be available.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
I know someone in the room who knows. I mean Arloe.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
The thing that's easy to find is when it aired.
It's not easy to find it.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
When we start aired in ninety eight eight, right, so
in between June of ninety eight. It aired June of
ninety eight exactly. But we'd finished shooting, we had before
we went on the air first episode, so season that's
only six months we must have shot.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I feel like we went in February because remember how
cold it would be and they'd make us pretend like
it wash.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
So that's a very tight air date.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, we didn't seem to care. I don't know. I
don't know. I don't know how we did it now
thinking finished.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, we're not leaving ourselves any room.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
I know.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Wait a minute, so both of us are kind of wrong,
are so if we do, if we look at it
this way, and I want to waste your listener's time. Okay,
So if we shot the pilot in June of ninety
seven and we were on the air and dud of
ninety eight, we couldn't have been on hold that long
because we had to shoot a whole season pot so
we both think it was different than it really was.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
That's probably true. I think for me emotionally, it was
a very long So that's what that is something important
to talk about, Kristin. That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I definitely am not good at waiting, and I really,
really really I was writing on a decision like this,
and everybody has a different relationship to it, like yours
was much more. You went toward it, and my my
reaction to a big decision like that was to try
to run away from it. So that's why I just
turned it off and you kept it on. I kept
(23:37):
it on because you you weren't afraid of doing it.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I wasn't afraid at all, right, I was beyond So
that makes sense because I also knew how different it was,
and I wanted I felt when we you know, when
we started and again this is something that I think
people forget in some ways. And obviously we have our
incredible new audience thanks to Netflix of younger People, which
is amazing and never would have been in our thoughts
(24:06):
as a possibility. There weren't shows that were focused on
women from a woman's point of view in nineteen ninety
seven or before.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Well, there were a few Mary Tidnam Wore of course
that was.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Already made before, right, then Golden Girls, right, Murphy Brown, right,
But these were very different shows and they were spread
over like.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Fifty years to start. Also, of course, not to forget
Marlo Thomas.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Marlo Thomas Girl Yess is what we grew up on, right,
But then there was like a dearth, right, you know,
there was just kind of nothing, and there wasn't anything
that was super super modern in the way that they
had been for their time. So for us and for me,
who I was living in LA at that time, I
had been my poor out of work actor self in
New York. Then I had moved to LA and I
(24:54):
was surrounded by out of work actors and or people
who were working a little bit or whatever, fascinated by
the business, as you know, and so I had some
understanding of how different it was and how special it
was from a perspective of how it was going to
tell the stories and how unique it was that we
would get to film in New York that was a
(25:15):
very big deal, and that you know, this like upper
echelon of fashion, you know, which, to me, I was
just like, oh, what do you mean We're not wearing pantyhose?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I know this was scary for me. I I'm not
wearing pantyhose right, see CC.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
This is this is the origin to you guys.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
So one of the crazy stories that they wrote was
that the producers were the ones who came up with
the rules, and I was like, no, no, or care no.
It was Pat and Sara Jessica with the vision. You
had the vision you know, of how to be a
modern woman in New York. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I think Pat had a very Pat had a window,
like Pat had a window into a world that none
of us knew except for Mollie, who was always always
want to remind everybody, Molly was there from day one. Yes,
they they had a they had their hands in a
world that I knew about. But I was not privy too.
(26:22):
I was not in it. But I definitely knew about it,
like Pat Store on Eighth Street, like I had been
in that store many, many times, many times. It was
it was like what's that phrase, like you know something
you it's like a milestone in your life as a
young kid in New York growing up is like there's
(26:43):
you know, there's five shops you just have to visit.
And then I'm trying to remember there was the one
on the Upper west Side, Alice Underground, oh, Alex Underground,
Pat Store Field Sharavari at the time, and or Parishute.
We're a little bit passed few roucies. That was a
(27:04):
little bit earlier, but still I went there. Definitely certain
things at fifty ninth and Lex Bloomingdale's, which was the
Calvin Klein on only place you to get Calvin Kline
underwear we women at the time. And then a couple
thrift shops down on Broadway, Lower Broadway got it. But
so Pat had this like she touched on you know,
(27:27):
there was a a kind of fringy world that she
was very much a part of that. She was in
many cases godmother too, and so I knew about that
world and she drew heavily from that world. But but
(27:49):
but then there was overlap, like we shared living on
the streets in a certain way, or being invited to
or being observant of. So that's like the places in
which I could be a good partner to her and
or Molly or to any of the shoppers.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Right, you know, right, right, right?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
But yeah, no one, None of the producers ever made
their shows, although I will say that they came and
they had opinions about the board, and that was those
Those were good conversations, you know, and everybody were like
worthy combatants, like everybody, not me, meaning Pat and Molly
and Rebecca a little bit right at the time, yes,
(28:28):
and Darren and then then became Michael Patrick. And every
writer of a script was given the privilege or had
the right to come to those wardrobe discussions and have
their own opinions. And I'm sure you heard. If you
came back, Pat would find you on the said she'd
be like, Jenny says that she doesn't understand this dress,
you know, And then you'd say, but I understand the dress,
(28:49):
and she'd say you shoul talk to Jenny, or Darren says,
And then I'd say, oh, actually I get that. I
you know what it's fine. I get it. I understand
why he A, B and C or why Jenny. And
then sometimes you'd say, I'll talk to Jenny. I'll explain
why I feel like this is right because what's gonna
happen there and there and there? I want to make
sure we have bubbah blah blah blah or I just
(29:10):
love it and I think it will be a treat
and fun because it's not expected because nobody runs around
like that, you know, like all sorts of reasons and
you make your case and you win or you lose,
like so what that's collaborative, Like, that's what true collaboration
is is like not just one winner. No, there's always
somebody who's being heard and seen, like literally like see
(29:31):
the work, see it right, And that's that's good.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Definitely, that's good, good for all the time. And I
do feel in terms of our show then and now
you know, that's why it works is that everyone feels
passionately and I think that's key. And that doesn't mean
that it's always no no no, no roll in agreement.
You know, people are committed and they sometimes don't agree,
but this is what then the finished product is.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Better because of that. Hey, what does Michael Patrick always say,
hate me and hate me and may hate me today
love me and may totally.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Delly, that's a good one. I forgot that one. But
in terms of the fashion, because now we're on that,
but I am going to go back to my thing.
I remember bread crumbs. Nope, okay, interesting too though, Gosh,
(30:24):
so many threat they will come back next next season,
next season. No, we're not there yet. We're gonna talk
about fashion now because we're on it.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
No, I said, I'll come back.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Oh great, yes, next season, come back anytime, baby doors open.
We had to wait to have you though. That was exciting.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Almost we almost got it done. I know we almost
got it done, but then we didn't. It was too
early though.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
We needed to get I feel like I had to
get done with the first season to have a bunch
of thoughts for you to help us with, Okay, to
suss out so the fashion wise, obviously, there became a
time in our show where the fashion was almost like
the reason that we existed, or it seemed to everyone
else like the reason the existed, which I don't feel
like was the idea necessarily. You know, how do you
(31:07):
remember that happening or what was your thought on that happening.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Well, I remember, I remember that Fendy loaned us a bagette,
and up to that point nobody had been willing to
really give us anything. And I'm pretty sure our budget
for the first season was like ten thousand dollars, Like
we had no money. And it was the ingenuity of
(31:37):
Pat Molly and one and Century twenty one and Aina
right and just you know, intrepid digging around, pawing stuff,
going to some warehouses of vinted shops and things like that.
But we didn't have relationships yet. We had like no
infrastructure in the world of proper ziine houses.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
And but can I ask really quick, didn't you personally
already have some of these relationships?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
So I did. I had a few that were substantial,
Like they weren't substantial, but they were like real, They
weren't too flimsy, like I could count on. I felt
like I could make some call or reach out or
write a letter or whatever it was important.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Like the naked dress or so just that was from
your process.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
So I had. I wish I could be certain of
the Manola Blonnic. So I when I was younger and
I was living at the time in southern California, and
I had some friends whose family were involved in retail.
(32:48):
And I don't know if you remember Madeline Gallet and
Gallet on Sunset Plaza a little bit. So their daughter,
Rena Gallet, was a friend of a friend and her parents.
Her father owned Galley and her mother owned Madeline Galley,
and I think initially there was just a Galley, and
then there was a divorce, and then there was a
(33:09):
Madeline Galley, and then there was a Galley, and Galley
was a tiny house of very high end European primarily designers,
like very high end like that. Other one became the
one that's like everybody goes to and spends a million dollars.
That was initially on Doheany and Santa Monica that was scary,
like a dark case with like very expensive things came
(33:33):
and so they were a brighter version of that. And
let's see, Rina invited me. She said there was this
shoemaker coming to town and he was going to do
a trunk show at her mother's store, at Madeline Galleys store.
And it was February in southern California, which I came
to know because I'd been there in February once before
when I was Annie and had visited southern California in
(33:56):
February and it rained the entire time, and it was
puring rain in February. Like I came to understand, that's
what it should do in February, what it used to do,
and yeah, it used to rain, and so I said, yeah,
I'll come to a trunk show of this designer. I
don't think, I'm almost positive she didn't say the designer's name.
(34:18):
But it was fun and it was nice to be excited.
And I had an American Express card and and I
didn't have very much money in the bank and you
have to pay your American Express card off immediately and
it's not good for credit, which is a bummer. But
(34:38):
I went to Madeline gallet store and there was this
designer named Manla Blank and he nobody was there. There
was literally like three of us. It was puring rain
and cold, and you know, really unpleasant when it rains
like that and it's cold, and it's just rain is
so unusual anyway, Like it's such an amazing thing. Like
(35:00):
in London when it rains, it's one thing. Yes, son
of California when it rains, it's one thing. In New
York City when it rains, not to bother at all.
It doesn't matter at all for you. Okay. Anyway, there
was this sweet designer and I thought his shoes were beautiful,
so simple. Nothing I bought and try to remember, I'm
(35:22):
going to say, I bought like six pairs in an
American Express card that I had to pay off right away,
and it was going to be a long time. And
when I did finally get those shoes, when I lived
there and made them, he went off and made them
that trunk show, proper trunk show, where you pick your silhouette,
you pick your leathers, you pick any kind of trim,
(35:43):
et cetera. And he went off and he made them.
And when I received those shoes later, I picked up
the sock liner and they were all signed by him.
It was Renela Blank. So I came to love him,
even though I basically really really couldn't afford it like
I was. It wasn't like I couldn't afford it like
Carrie can't afford it, like I never made those kinds
of choices, like I always paid rent. I always took
(36:04):
care of myself and anybody else you needed taken care of, right,
But so I had that relationship. I had a relationship
at Calvin Klein, which I don't can't figure out how
that started. And Donna Karen I had a little bit
of a relationship. But for the most part we were
that's right, that's right. But still people were like not
(36:26):
tossing us stuff.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
No, no, not at all.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I kind of feel like that was perfectly good and
fine and maybe the best thing that could have happened
to us, because had we had access to more familiar
pieces sooner, it might have eclipsed what we were. Also,
I say we because we got the words and then
we tried to do our best with them. Absolutely, But really,
(36:51):
when I say we, what we were trying to do?
It really want to talk about the writers and what
they They're like, what was the momentum, like the trajectory,
like what were they trying to do? Because they always
had the whole season in mind and I never did.
I was like, not, don't tell me, I don't want
to know. I don't want to know. I don't want
(37:11):
to know. Right, So, had we had everything we ever
wanted sooner, I'm afraid it would have gotten in the way,
because yes, people were curious, and they enjoyed and some
delighted and some didn't at all in the sartorial efforts
(37:33):
of the show and what it was saying and who
we were, because it was really an attempt to really
be those people that we'd heard about, rehd about, knew about,
didn't We didn't have exchanges with those people, but I
certainly knew all about them, right, So we did our
best to tell that story as accurately as we could.
(37:54):
But what people connected to initially were these women talking
intimately about their lives, the intimate part of their lives,
the challenges of being a working woman, sexual politics, love
(38:17):
and how it eludes you. And as Richard Plepler always says,
where is home?
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
And I think if we had had an air mes bag, yeah,
and everything else and all these coveted pieces and straight
off the runway from Paris, I don't know that women
would have had such strong feelings, and men too, for
(38:46):
and against, and the against doesn't push them away, you know,
just because you're angry about a choice of character makes
doesn't mean you're gone in fact, And so I'm grateful
that we were bare knuckling it, you know, and really
having to be like as industrious, like call in favors,
(39:06):
bring clothes from home. How many times did you bring
clothes from home?
Speaker 1 (39:09):
I think the whole first season. I'm wearing my r right.
So they weren't good though, but.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
It doesn't matter, No, you're right, And so maybe it
was a virtuous thing that we were scraping and good thoughts,
you know, working on creativity, calling in favors. I mean,
because Pat certainly had relationships and Molly they they had
(39:34):
their they had their tentacles in the world. But it
wasn't until Fendy loans that bag at was that I.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Think second season, because I don't think I saw one
first season.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I think it was second place the whole.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
First season, really, And there's sometimes when I'm looking at things,
I'm thinking, are that is that? Sir Jessica's do you
remember bringing in clothes other than the naked dress, which
we know came from your own.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
I don't think I brought in what I ended up
bringing in clothes when we had holes and spaces that
were like and I would be like, I might have
a white shirt at home, I might well, you know
what I might have a bag. I might have a sweater,
I might have a cardigan. Little pieces, little pieces, because
she dressed so differently than I did, you know, and.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
So another thing people don't necessarily understand.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yeah, it was very hard to be her from my closet.
I also didn't have a lot of clothes.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
So you have the shoes, but you didn't have a
lot of clothes.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Yeah, and I probably didn't have as many shoes as ever.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Well, listen, if you had six pairs of Nola's from
a trunk show.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
You were aware of, but everyone else and I was
gonna say about those shoes, they were all stolen. Yeah,
it was a real sad story what happened.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
So I.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
I was traveling. It was very unusual year in that
I did. I'm trying to remember how this went. I
did three movies back to back, and the last two
were pocus Pocus and then Three Rivers or what came
(41:22):
to be called.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
With Hugh Grant.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
With Bruce Willis striking the Boats the Boats. A third
movie what was.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
The one with Hugh Grant had brown hair, and I.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Can't remember the name. Medical I'll tell you what it
wasn't called for weddings at a funeral, right, No, yes,
I auditioned for that. I didn't get that, so I
got the other one. But I had, you know how
like when you travel when you're well. When I was
just traveling back to back to back, I'm shooting a
movie in LA And then I went to Pittsburgh for
(42:00):
six months and shot a movie, and I just like
took everything I loved and I had been gifted from
a previous relationship of Chanell's suit. I also had a
Chanelle suit, and yeah, I had like So I traveled
with like all the things that were my favorite, including
(42:20):
Anthony Michaelhall and I had traded a sweatshirt and he
had given me like a Yankee sweatshirt that was so
old you could not believe it. It was the oldest
Yankee sweatshirt I'd ever seen in my life, and I
wore it everywhere. And so I decided that I was
going to see I can't remember if I shot, doesn't matter.
(42:42):
I decided that I was going to be really like
something and only packed to get back to New York City.
When I was done with all the movies. I was
going to FedEx my stuff home because by then I
had accumulated so much stuff. And you know when you
leave a hotel room, there's like papers everywhere in scripts
and you bought this, you have that you have like
(43:02):
presents for friends and families and Christmas presents. And I
was like, I'm going to do that thing that people
do and I'm gonna FedEx everything home. And it was
all stolen. So everything in that was stolen. So sad.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Oh, I know, so sad, but it was sad.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
It was pretty I was stunned. I was like, so
did it ever make it to the drop off point?
And you know, if you don't protect yourself now, I know,
in advance of shipping something, then you're only there's minimal
coverage for it. And I could see. I was like, well,
can let's watch this happen like it it did? It
(43:40):
got to the place okay, So it went to its place,
it's point of origin, and then it just disappeared. And
I was like, you know what if I opened those
boxes and I saw and I you know, the box
that made it back? What the dog stuff? With all
the dog stuff? I found a dog. I got a
dog there in lass Angelus. Yeah, dog at the Beverly
(44:02):
Center that had been in the window over and over
and over and over and over again. It was saddest thing.
So I took it that dog was mynas and all
her dishes, you know, and like papers, like papers that
use scribble stuff at the hotel, like yeah, I all
went and that's the box.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
So anyway, I didn't always have as many shoes as
but but you had a nice amount of shag your.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Toe in the water, right, Whereas like for me, I'd
never heard of Manila Blade. I didn't know how to
say it. Like, I was like, oh my god, you know,
that was my whole life at the beginning of the show,
was like how do I say this? How do I
wear it? Can I walk in those shoes? You know
all of that? Right?
Speaker 2 (44:40):
God, now look at you walk in those shoes.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
I don't know, baby. I almost killed myself. And I
was so cates this last season. I was like, I've
got to go down in the height. You you were
higher shoes than almost all of us. Well that's got
to stop. Okay, crazy just because I'm a crazy person,
Like I know, I had something. I was like, why
am I teeter tottering in those shoes? Because it was
the end of the season and the feet are swollen.
(45:02):
I'm like, why am I still doing this to myself?
Speaker 2 (45:04):
My god?
Speaker 1 (45:05):
And now everyone talks about you running in those shoes,
and everyone asked me, how does she do it? How
does she do it? I'm like, the woman, actually stay
it again. They call action, they call action.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
That's what you do.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
That's what of them. But honestly, you were the one
who like, we could be on cobblestones, we could, there
could be obstacles in your and you're like, I can
do it, and you could, you could, So all of
us were like, we've got to try to do what
she does. We've got to That's my thoughts.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
I feel like I feel like everybody did it. I mean,
I think that's because we were just trying to pull
it off, right, and that's what I was doing. I
mean I think that, you know, I think that it
was pretty familiar for I felt it didn't feel totally
unfamiliar to be navigating like cobblestone and stuff and not
(45:50):
wearing hoes and all that. That. Like, I definitely.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Felt that that was.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
I would almost call it normal, right, It was.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Normal for you because you were very fashionable New York City.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
I never thought my lady that way.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
But but you were you were. I definitely was. I
could understand fish nets and the double fish nets, and
I mean, like so many things. And remember the banana
clip and you know, God forbid. And remember that time
they tried to put me in the big velvet scrunchy.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Do you remember this? You know that big velvet scrunchies
are so in now.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
I know, I know, I do know, but I mean
this was as big as my face. It was as
big as my face. And that guy who tried to
cut my hair, I'm not going to say his name.
He was just around a little bit and you were
just like no, you know, you were very I was like, oh,
thank god, I can go to her. This was my
my light bulb moment of like I can go to
sarth Jusica when they because they would. You know, in
(46:47):
the beginning, we were trying to figure things out right
and for Charlotte, who was very much you know, not
based on one particular person, which I did finally get
get can confer, which was helpful, and Michael Patrick was like,
I don't know how to write for her. And Darren.
I think Darren really did have a vision for her
in the beginning in terms of like the lightness and
(47:08):
the funniness, and you know, he had wanted me to
be funny on Melrose and then he left, and then
they didn't know. They were like, what do we do
with her?
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Right?
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Oh god, oh god, I'm gonna foo every week. It's different.
So for for Charlotte, we got to create her together.
I felt like, but because I didn't really know those women,
I didn't really know this echelon of people or really
that much about them other than what I might have
read in Vogue, you know. And I remember just stalking
the Upper east Side.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Yeah, I heard you talking about that, and it's so
interesting that I think that came in question from one
of your listeners and I was like, oh, that is
so interesting that I didn't know that you were just
parading up and down Matt flloween people. It was such
a smart thing to do, because that is its own world.
(47:53):
I don't know that world as much because I wasn't
part of it. Cynthia didn't live in that part of
the world, right, Those were definitely different like breeds of people.
Definitely so smart of you. But you know, the funny
thing about how you have described, you know, how little
they seem to know what to do with Charlotte, or
(48:14):
how little like source material there was in a way,
or uh, just you know people the admission that they
weren't that Michael wasn't sure that he could write m
it's just you know, I haven't seen the show, so
you're gonna tell me, no, there is a fallow space
like where there's not gonna be the way I've heard
(48:36):
you talk about, You're like you can see or or
you felt that they were like sorting it out in
real time. But the funny thing about that is that
I remember it was totally full like I never thought.
And my guess is that we've talked about this before
that you've reminded me more than once, but I think
I've never heard you talk about it like so completely.
(48:58):
And because listeners are asked sking you questions, you're filling in.
You know, I had the broad strokes, but I never
really thought that it was incomplete. And I think what
I guess what you know, what happened in regards to
your character, I would say with the ambitions, even with
(49:19):
Miranda and Samantha and they were fulfilled, is that I
feel like every year, there was like a sort of
an agreement or Michael once my Michael took over, so
it sort of the second season was like a whole
new approach. Dude, not new approach, but it was now
(49:40):
another year, and I feel like he said to himself
or to and to the writers, Okay, we are taking
off a layer now this year, because you can't just
have archetypal people. You know, it's no good for the actor.
(50:00):
It's not going to be fun for us, and it's
not good for Carrie. It really like fulfilled like the
idea what it needed to do the first season, Like
we needed to understand that Miranda was going to react
this way, and Charlotte was going to react this way,
and Samantha was going to react this way, and that
Carrie could then write about it. And it was always
(50:22):
like the fulcrum for the column, and the column was
the episode. And Michael was like, well, no, you can't,
just you've got to Everyone has to go deeper, everyone
has to go deeper all the time. So what I
think is the first season, as you felt they were pondering,
well what do I do for Charlotte, I think they
(50:48):
took care of it, really, really well, because it feels
to me like I never felt in a scene like
she doesn't have enough meaning, like you.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
Gave it, you fild it up.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
But that's the job, like is to like you kind
of come to the set having to know more than
is being said and like project some more stuff into
it that isn't there necessarily, but it's going to add up.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
It's like scar tissue definitely.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
And so that then Michael and his extraordinary writers just
kept pushing so that so that very I would say
if recollection serves it, like by mid second season, end
of second season, you're having very big everyone's having big storylines,
(51:52):
like it's it's starting to get more independent, like everybody
needs each other, but they they are their lifeline is
not necessarily being reactionary and saying, but you've got to
get married, You've got to believe in love. Like I'm
(52:14):
just summarizing like an archetype, because archetypes are super important,
like they're not tiny. No, And I always wonder anyway
if it's real, like if the whole thing is.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Real, No, don't go down here again.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
You're not gonna say they were a dream blade down.
I just don't know if it exists.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Thirty years.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
Well, it's just a column, you kill me. I love
this so much because that's the case. Isn't that better?
Speaker 1 (52:50):
No, I don't live.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
What do you mean because if Carrie's a writer, oh
my god, this is just a story she's telling. Yes,
it doesn't diminish what happens. It means as much. Okay,
I'm just saying it gives you. You can move at
(53:14):
things differently. If we don't have to apply life rules.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
Do you feel like that's what we did?
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Sometimes we have to?
Speaker 1 (53:26):
Is that what we're still doing? Was?
Speaker 2 (53:28):
It was not a It was an always a slightly
alternate universe. It was always true. In fact, said oh
is this real? And you said absolutely not That New York.
This New York as portrayed, as painted in the late
(53:49):
nineties through the early aughts, was not entirely accurate. It
was heightened. True, was better and worse, much prettier and much.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Uglier in certain ways.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
It was richer and not addressing other things. So true,
it picked. But that's what Candae's columns were true. So
it wasn't law and order and toe tags, right, thank god,
it was purposefully heightened. Right, So when you're creating a
(54:30):
slightly alternate universe. You can ask yourself questions about the
provenance of a character.
Speaker 1 (54:40):
I love that we've actually gotten the whole story behind
something that you said. I think when the first show
was ending that I was like, why is she saying that?
I feel like I've been real more touching. Maybe that's true.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Think about somebody creating a world in which the friendships
were the central nervous system and heartbeat and arteries of
a life, like where somebody was saying, this is the
(55:20):
most important thing is our friendships. This is the thing
that that is life sustaining.
Speaker 1 (55:32):
It's true, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
It's even better than having the good fortune to have it.
If a woman is saying, look, I'm going to choose
to tell this story about these women, it's still like, deeply,
if it's real life, it's what great good fortune, what privilege?
But if it's an imagination, that's cool too.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
It is cool too. You give me many a chills
and got me cheered up, And you guys, we will
be back for another episode of Are You Charlotte
Host
Kristin Davis
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