August 25, 2025 • 43 mins
Golden Globe and Emmy Winning writer of Sex and the City, Cindy Chupack is taking us behind the scenes of "Evolution" and "Chicken Dance". From the storylines based on her life to leaving Everybody Loves Raymond for some Sex in NYC. Plus, why everyone was in love with Dan Futterman.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know, are
you a Charlotte. You guys, it's an exciting day, and
are you a Charlotte because Cindy Schubreck is here. We
have been waiting so excited for you to come. Cindy
came to be on the show as a writer originally
she's gonna tell us all about it in nineteen ninety nine,
(00:24):
many years ago. And you and Jenny then in my mind,
became like this super powerhouse pair who really like took
the reins of the female voice. You know. People would
sometimes complain thinking we only had male writers because Darren
was so outfront and then Michael Patrick, but really we
always had you guys in my mind, you know, and
(00:46):
you really had such a really incredible input in terms
of like your own stories, and you know, like for Charlotte,
some of them were just like so important from both
you and Jenny, and like for me when I think
at the show that really, you know, it was the
heart and the soul and the foundation of like where
(01:08):
our characters got to go and deepen into. So we're super.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Excited to hear yes. I mean it's funny because Michael
to me and Michael could write anybody and anything, of course,
and I know you mean that, but yeah, Jenny was
actually a friend I had made before I came aboard
this show. I know this, and I was working on
every Boy Loves Raymond.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Well, I didn't remember this theater.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
This is a big thing because it was sort of
like I had an affair with Sex and the City
because I had been working with a writing partner for
like seven years, and on the side, I used to
write these columns like once a year, this thing about
dating for a glamor, and then I could never use
as a samples because when you're working with a partner,
you have to do things you did together, right, And
I was working she had kids already, so we had
(01:53):
been on all sorts of shows that weren't at all
about what I was living interesting, and we were finally
at a point where we were going to separate, and
wroteenthal who ran every Bay Loves Raymond, let us each
write an episode. So I had my own episode of
Everybody Loves Raymond, and then I was going to write
a spec and Sex and the City had just started.
It was in season one, and I knew Jenny was
working on it, and I told her I was gonna
(02:13):
write a spect and she's like, you should come in freelance,
Like you should come in and pitch. So that's what
Phil let me do. From everybody loves Raymond. I love Phil,
I mean me too. I don't think he I mean
I think he regrets it, maybe still, but which I
will want you.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Phil, I appreciate that. We all really appreciate that you
cheese everybody.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I know.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
He's a good guy.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
He's and these are great writers. Like that was a
great we were finally I was finally on a good
show that was going to last on Raymond. So my dad,
who was an accountant, was like, what are you doing?
But I from the minute I pitched to Michael and
Darren and Jenny encouraged me, which was so nice of
her to share that. Like so it was it was
like I was so excited to pitch because everything I
(02:57):
had written in a little journal of things I wanted
to write about our essays or a movie I might
want to write everything could work on that show. Because
I was the same age as you guys at that time.
It just felt like everything I talked to my friends
about and everything I wondered about and in fact, I
was at Everybody Loves This is such a long answer, so.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
It was good a long answer.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I was at Everybody Loves Raymond and one of the
guys brought in a VCR. I remember that of Sex
and the City, and he's like, my wife loves this show.
I don't get it. It was at lunch it played. It
was the baby Shower episode, and I hadn't seen it,
and I remember all the boys slowly trickled out. It
was mostly met on the show, of course, and at Raymond,
(03:38):
and they all trickled out and went to lunch, and
I was sitting there and I was like crying by
the end of it. I couldn't believe how much it
spoke to about what I bought about, and like how
deep it was to me, and like the idea of
our you gonn advocate And then remember she had taken
your baby. Remember there was like such big laughs, but
(03:59):
there were also just to me, these really deep, meaningful conversations.
Absolutely I hadn't heard, and so I was like enamored
of the show. And so I went and pitched and
Mike clinn. So that's when I did the episode of
the Chicken dance as a freelancer, so I did not.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Realize you were a free lancer and you did like
a absolutely iconic episode. I mean, Cynthia and I just
talked about it last week and Cynthia said, because they
were asking me, where are you in the in the
rewatching and I told them and I said, you know,
Cindy couldn't come on for Chicken Dance, which is coming
on for the next one. And Cindy said, oh, I
recommend Chicken Dance to anyone who hasn't seen the show
(04:38):
or young people who want to see it for the
first time, because it's not particularly dirty, right, but it's
the gist of the four women characters.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Oh interesting, Yeah, And that was I thought that.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Was so smart because all I remembered about the Chicken
Dance was the difficult storyline that I have, which is,
you know, the groomsman's father groping me on the dance floor.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
So you like it, and you had an entire relationship
during the wedding with what.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Also so bizarre start exactly. That's the which so much
fun about rewatching. There's so many great things. One is
that there are things I remember really vividly, and then
there's things where there's just nothing right, and I'm like,
I never know what I'm going to do, Like like
in the one that Jenny had written, the threesomeone where
I'm having a dream and it looks like I'm about
(05:25):
to have a threesome.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I was I'm gonna have a cent.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
I remember that. Oh my god, how great of Charlotte,
you know what I mean. But no, no, no, it's
just a dream. I didn't have a three cent, but
I literally don't know. And also in the in the
Chicken Dance, I don't remember going up to the room
that I'm preparing for the bread and Room and having
sex there with that dude very at all, which obviously
I didn't really have something. But you know, I'm saying, yeah,
pretty suppersive for Charlotte, and she does a lot of stuff.
(05:51):
But then we come down and he tells me that
I look like a whore in my beautiful dress, and
I'm like, oh, but I think, and it's a good
example because I think what you do so brilliantly, and
really all of our writers, but when you came you
could get the embarrassment, the kind of going out on
a limb emotionally with the humor, with the depth, all
(06:13):
of those things, and that's the specialness of the show,
I think, and the writing is the reason for it well.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
And then that you guys could carry off anything that
was so fun.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
It was like, but you guys, you know, you don't
really have writing like that very often when it's really
asking you to fire on all cylinders.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, you know, That's what I feel like I remember
about the show is just everybody was firing on all cylinders.
And I feel like I knew it at the time.
I mean, part way in, I was thinking, this is
going to be the best job I ever have. And
that's either sad or just like amazing that I'm here
right now. But I felt like the actors of costume,
the directors, we were getting and you know, from the
(06:51):
moment of like nobody's heard of the show and somebody
brought it in on a tape to like I think
when I joined you guys, that was the first year
at the Golden Globes and we were like jumping out
in the kitchen and suddenly people were watching. And then
we'd walk around New York and you'd hear people talking
about it. Yeah, So not only did I love what
we were doing and who I was working with, but
people work. It was in the zeitgeist very yeah. So yeah,
(07:13):
I felt like this is everybody lightning in a bottle.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Amazing, yes, absolutely, and smart that you knew it. I
mean I don't know that I really knew it until
I feel like I knew it third season.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
But maybe I probably didn't know it right away, right.
I just was happy to be there.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Joy of the actual experience is what was you know,
so amazing because you don't always have that, right. You
could be on an amazing show. Everybody loves Raymond's an
amazing show, but like you said, it wasn't necessarily what
you were thinking about in life, right, And that was
true for me also obviously with Sex and City, I'm
a single, thirty five year old whatever, thirty foot why,
I don't know how old we were something thirty something, Yeah,
(07:50):
and you know the things that you are already thinking
of and talking about and or curious about or whatever
is their story. It's crazy, right, like, so unusual and
obviously hadn't happened then, and I don't know really has
happened again, because I think we had kind of a
unique situation in terms of HBO allowing us, you know,
to do whatever we want.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, and I think so much there's very little that's
not said anymore.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Well, this is true.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
When we were hot, right, there were still things to
be said that people hadn't said aloud. And now I
feel like very true, maybe even artly because of us.
Not to take credit for that, but I feel like
my friends who didn't used to talk about some of
those things that we talked about then would and men
would too. And so now everybody writes their own every
you know, everybody says everything absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
So tell us back. So you wrote the chicken nance
on spec. So for anyone listening who doesn't really know
what that means, tell us exactly what inspect means.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
As a freelancer. So I came in and pitched, and
they listened to a few ideas. They liked that idea.
That was really what was happening in my life right then.
I had bought this house on my own, and somebody
everybody said like, as soon as you buy a place,
someone will propose. And then I had people hostitting and
they got engaged in my house and it's supposed to
be to me, and they had me write a poem
(09:02):
for their wedding, so everything oh the time.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
For example, you don't.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Know he got them.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
That's why you were right reading.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
He didn't happen leave, but he had given me the
pink toothbrush head, which was like big to me.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
But then it's like they met, got engaged, were getting
married and he's just my date and as as far
as I got is like the pink toothbrushead. And so
I did start crying during the poem the poem, yeah,
and I did kind of play it off as like
I was overcome by emotion, but really also.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Oh my god. The other thing that I love about
having a podcast and getting to discuss things like this
is that, you know, there was always this kind of
vague thought that the stories in the show were our actors' stories,
and we would always try to tell someone no, no, no,
they're not our stories because that'd be weird. They're you know,
ore writer stories, and they have an agreement that everything
is going to be either their story or once removed,
(09:54):
people know someone who's actually going through it, but to
hear you how close it was to your life.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
And it wasn't always that a to B like right,
but we definitely yeah, but that one when I pitched it,
they loved that idea. So I got to write that one,
and then I got to come to New York and
be at the table read, which to me because I
had only seen you guys on television and even though
I worked in TV, I worked in you know, like
in front of an audience in four camera sitcoms ol sessions.
(10:20):
It comes right, and this was like, you know, you guys,
I think it was at ABC carpet during lunch when
you were filming something at Equinox or something already. It
felt really cool to me, but I was really intimidated.
And I also was intimidated because the script you were
reading like had come off my printer, like nobody changed
very much. Like I definitely got input when I was
(10:42):
breaking the story and all, but it was kind of
like getting your bluff called because writers always complain, you know, right,
so much got changed, but I was like, why did
no one all help me out?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
This is bad?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
This is just bad for me, Oh my.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
God, But it was so good, That's why no one changed.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And it was quiet because you guys were like grown
ups and you'd have to laugh. So the so the
network knew it was funny, like we did on his sitcom, right,
so it's really quiet the whole time, the whole difference.
Maybe everyone was very nice afterwards. And then after that
I asked my agent, like, do you think I could
go on there? And so he like asked, and I
got to go there. And then I think maybe they
(11:18):
regretted letting me do it from everybody else, right, But
I was like, I'm already in love with this whole process.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So then you left.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Everybody loves women always between seasons, so I just didn't reap,
but I think got it. Everybody thought it would because
it was finally a successful show and it was really
fun to write, and I wrote about my family, but
it wasn't like writing Sex and the City.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Of course, nothing is nothing was obviously for sure, And
we're just so thankful that you came to us.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
My god, I am.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I did have a very weird conversation though, which kind
of now has some interesting backstory to it. One time
with Ray Ramono on television where he told me that
women weren't funny. Oh yeah, and I say interest, but
we were on television, so I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Were you what was that?
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Some kind of a was it Bill Maher used to
have a show that had more than one personal Yeah, yeah,
maybe that show. So it was like a guy based show.
And I think that was the only woman sitting there,
do you know what I mean? And I was kind
of like, and I think we knew you'd come from
there on some level at least I was like, wait,
is this guy?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
So I feel like, okay, maybe he was overstating hopefully,
and I just did a thing that was like a
reunion of the Raymond writers. But I do remember like
I said something funny, and I remember them kind of
still looking surprised that I said all these years.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
And you feel like that's a real thing in commedy.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Like happily, not surprised, like how could you, but just
surprise I said something.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I remember thinking that, like it's a holdover from like
you know, it's a sexist kind of a holdover that
we still need to get totally rid of, right, And
that was kind of the joy of our show is
that there were four of us and all of you
guys started writing and writing your own series or women writers,
and yes there was Darren and Michael Patrick of course,
but then like we got more and more, and we're gonna,
you know, obviously as we go on, we'll get everyone on,
(13:07):
hopefully because that would be really really fun. But you know,
just to be able to succeed without it being a
traditional sitcom, right, So I think women obviously had already
done great over there in regular sitcom land, right to
have it be kind of like a little almost like
an indie film, almost like a sitcom, oh, you know,
like we it was very.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Different at the time, very different like whenever I pitched
a sort of a woman centric show, it was always like, okay,
but they they're dating, but what's their job or whatever.
It was never I could just see about friendship and
dating really in life, and in the right that was right.
So it was really fun. And also, yeah, it did
look very filmic. I remember people were really addicted kind
of to a laugh track. So there was a lot
(13:47):
of fear about like what single camera was, and there
was a lot of hybrid will be kind of single
camera but some kind of on right. But Second City
did such a good job of making it film and
I think using music, and it didn't feel quiet and
it was like.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Not at all, yeah, not at all. But also to
me even when I look back, because it is I
am so able to be more objective now than you know,
because I only would ever watch it right when before
it came out on HBO. They would give us the
vhs and we take them home and watch them, and
sometimes there's still be like placeholders or whatever. It wouldn't
be totally finished right, and then I would probably not
(14:21):
ever see it again, you know. So I'm rewatching and
so amazed by so many things and so many things.
I'm like, it is so good and I don't know
that I was able to feel that at the time,
like to really think in I knew it was special
and different, and I knew that our vibe when we
were doing it had that like faculty energy of something special,
(14:43):
you know. But then to see it now from all
these many years later, and see how the writing holds up,
how on point you guys are about so many things,
like the I think this is so this is our
episode that we're discussing today is Evolution, which you wrote
and Pam Thomas directs, who was great director, and I
don't know why we never had her back maybe you know,
(15:04):
I don't know, so great And it's got the incredible
Dan Futterman in it, which we're going to talk to
next week, which will be really fun. But the thing
that I'm wondering about, because I just watched this is
when we have the incredible episode where Brandon talks about
freezing her eggs.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yes, I watched it last night too, right, the guy
with the hair.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Plus right, it's so good. But also that shot where
they're in the freezer and she and Gary says, right now,
there were no eggs in her freezer.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Thomas did that great, like from shot and also from
behind the medicine cabinet medicine so good.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I mean, she was so visual, Pam Thomas was so visual.
But like, that's how new egg freezing was that. First
of all, this jerk on this date with her is
gonna you know, criticize the idea of you know, science, right,
you know, creating babies or whatever. Oh my god. And
then obviously he's just had hair blood, so she's just
like wait, you know, which is so well written and
(16:03):
so great. But also the fact that then she goes
into her freezer and there's vodka in there, and carry goes,
you know, for now there's no It's so funny funny.
And it's funny because I remember at the time eyeing
everyone was like, wait, what.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Do you mean? What how does I remember? Like and
should I do that?
Speaker 3 (16:23):
That?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Smart?
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Do you go?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
The fertility savings account?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
All of it was new. It's crazy to think about that.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, well, I mean because we did write a lot
from experience. But I remember when we did all the
infertility stuff for Charlotte, I hadn't had children yet and
like hadn't gone through that and then did afterward, and
I remember a lot of that I think came from
Michael Patrick King and his friends who had gone through
it right. So again, like the men could write the
hell out of it anything. But I felt like later
(16:54):
like wow, that we did kind of nail it. I
was kind of that was when of those things looking back,
I went, oh it did. I mean, I alway felt like, oh,
I could have added more because now I understand more.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
But I thought the same thing with my acting. Yeah,
I was like I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I couldn't do more.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
I could have done more a big time. I don't
know if that would have been needed necessarily, but like,
once you start to go through those actual things, there
is no high or low that is too high or
too low.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
It's in that field. Oh yes, right, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
The adoption too, you know, like it happens pretty pretty simply. Yeah,
and it's not that simple, as we both know.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
No, no, but.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
I mean I love that we did it, and maybe
we I don't even know if the show would have
benefited from more detail, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
No, it's more about the emotion, that's the thing. Yeah,
that's the thing. I sometimes I just think back, well,
I just looked at it kind of a nod that
like you did capture it, and it's somehow captured, you know,
close to what it was. But it's true, you feel
like I under like this is an odd thing to
stay on it. But I feel like I knew women
who had miscarriages when I was younger, but I didn't
really know what that meant exactly to them and what
(18:01):
kind of a loss that was.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Because I don't think people talked about it.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
They didn't, which is sad, and so it really didn't
like there were some things you kind of do have
to go through to understand the depth of what it
feels like to the person. And even if you have
really good friends who went through it, it's just not
quite the same, So that's true.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I have to say, I think with the Charlotte miscarriage,
I think the writing was beautiful and I had enough.
I don't want to say lost, because that's not exactly
the right word, but I had enough understanding from my
friends and from just my own personal journey, not that
I had been through that then it definitely had it,
(18:42):
but you know, I had enough to draw on that,
I think. And again, this is one of those things
where like Hindsight is twenty twenty in some ways, but
then also like our show has the ability to have
the incredibly serious storylines but still be able to get out,
you know, to come to a place. So like had
(19:03):
we known more, had been able to get up off
the sofa, get herself dressed up and go to that party.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I don't know, well, I should say I think for you,
I'm not going to speak for you because you're right here,
But for actors, maybe you're used to playing things you
haven't you don't you know how to draw on other things,
And I guess as a writer I did the same.
But just sometimes sometimes when you're writing and you know,
like something's going to be a real gut punch, you
can feel it in your gut. Yeah, you don't have
to have gone through it, but like I can feel like, oh,
(19:30):
this almost makes me cry to write it. And now
this is like something I feel like I kind of
would have had more of that feeling maybe, but.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
That's how it turned out. And I think people talk
to me a lot about it now still, so you
know over time that that's something that people connect with
and isn't that the whole game? Right? So so yes,
we can.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
No, I'm so and I'm so happy that it's I
do feel like we're probably I'm probably more critical, but
I'm so happy it holds up, like I feel like,
and that's because really the themes of it, the love,
the friendship, the loss, the longing, the like, loneliness, everything
was the universal thing that whether you're texting or you're
waiting for a phone call, it was kind of universal.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yes, And that's why I'm doing the podcast really because
all these new people discovered it. But being on Netflix,
right and then I really people had asked, you know,
since podcasts became a thing, and I just didn't feel
ready to look at it because we were all together
doing and just like that, I felt like I had
kind of a good advantage point of like, well, we're
here now and look at how we began, and also
(20:35):
I haven't watched them, and also I really wanted everyone's
stories to be told. This is the joy of podcasting, right, Yeah,
so all these people who've been our fans forever or
new people can hear about what it was like to
create it, and like you're saying, like, you know, the
feeling of being in New York in the beginning when
we didn't really know what it was going to be,
but it had that like sizzily feeling, you know, and
(20:57):
like that process of like walking around and having people
start to talk to us about it and all of that,
Like being there is incredible to think about. Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Was it was really exciting? Yeah, And it was just
I think even if it hadn't caught on, it was
really nice to be writing and doing something that felt
so relevant to what we were going through, what our
friends were going through.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Absolutely absolutely, and I'm just going to have a little
just moment to talk about it and just like that,
you know, whether and just like that obviously never going
to be Sex and City. I don't ever think we
ever thought it was going to be Sex and City,
but again, we wanted to tell the stories of what
we're going through in our thirties.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I think that's an important point, right, is that like
here we were, it was COVID. You know, COVID had
just ended. We were just able to go back out,
and the thing that we had always been doing was
talking about what was happening for us in our lives
at this time, not necessarily my Christian story, but.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Like all the people we know and just like life
goes on, Yeah, and why wouldn't that be something?
Speaker 1 (21:56):
But I think maybe we were a little bit overly
ambitious thinking that our fans. I'm gonna laugh, I shouldn't
really laugh, but it's kind of funny when I think
about it now, like how naive in a way at
least I was that our fans he has like you're
talking about death and cancer. Like we were like, yeah,
(22:18):
let's do it. And then everybody's like what are they doing?
You know what I mean? And now it's over, which
is sad. But I'm are you going to go there?
But you know I'm in denial. I'm in denial because
we've ended so many times. So let's talk a little.
(22:41):
I'm wanting hear more. So you said, your agent, I
want to go right on that show? Could I go
right on that show? He says, yes, he gets you
deal over there. You leave Raymond, You moved to New York. Yeah,
got it, Like we did half and half to me too, right,
We were all back and forth. So you kept your
house here, you went to New York and then where
you were, you and Jenny, you would have your own scripts. Yeah,
(23:01):
wid you at some point were you consulting producers and
then executive producers? What was that journey? Like, I can't remember.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I think I was already like a co executive producer
at Raymond, and I think I just came on as
a consulting producer because literally it was a big pay
cup from what I was doing. I was finally making money.
But I was like, I don't care what the title is,
and there were certain anyway, It's just that it was
like all work for whatever at the time, and then
as it was great, but I think it was just
(23:29):
like I don't care about the title. I just want
to be there. So I started as a consulting producer,
got it, and then yeah, eventually became a co executive
and Jenny both.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yeah, and did you were you together with Jenny in
terms of like we're a partnership co executive producer. That's
how I felt you guys were, huh, But I don't
think you technically were. No, we were just like Julian
and a Lisa are a technical partnership.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I think we just like were in sync a lot
of times. We were like the two girls and when
it was like Michael and Darren.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, but yeah, she mean you to have your own scripts.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, yeah, we did. We collaborated on one, like the
last We collaborated on splat the very end, and that
was so fun to write with Jenny, so oh my god.
But I collaborated with Michael on a different one too,
so yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
But so it was like kind of a small group
of writers at that point, and you would collaborate and
or just be in the writer's room together, yeah, brainstorming,
and then on the set with us all the time,
which is the other thing people really don't realize. No,
And was that unusual for you at the time, Well.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, it was my first single camera so I hadn't
even been on those kind of sets right out in
the world, right, But also even since then, like I've
done a lot and I haven't ever been on a
show where you're there that much and where even you're
doing the writing there like either in a restaurant nearby
or upstairs by the camera.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Set with your lapshop open on your lap which would
be Michael Patrick King.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, you like to be there, and like not all
show runners want to be there for everything, and and
so we would just go along and while we were
still writing. But it was great because we got to
really like be the.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Process and I know, so it was great for us
because you know, if we had a question, we could
just go over to you and we didn't have to
worry if the director, we feel was like totally knowledgeable
about the characters or the storyline or whatever. We could
just check in with you guys, which was amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yes right, no, yes, no you could. I don't know
if all the directors loved that.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
You know what.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
On my very first on Chicken Dance, Yes, oh, I
think you asked me something which I answered because I
didn't know the protocol of all that. And then I
remember the director at the time who I saw recently
at a DJA, I think, and she's still angry with
me about this, and I was like, I didn't know.
But anyway, she said something at the time like, oh,
is that what we're gonna do? A good cup, bad cup?
(25:39):
And I was like, what, I don't even know what
I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
I just answer a question, but my god.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
But anyway, that was unusual. Most of them totally appreciated
and I never came back. Please, if you're listening, Victoria,
I am sorry. I didn't know how it worked.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
I was new.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I was just excited to be there.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah, but I'm sure I was just excited to ask
you a question and you should answer.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
It's like how we're going to play it and come out.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
But you know what I think that is about, and
I think it's interesting to think about it. That is
about the old school TV ways. Yeah, because there was
a hierarchy.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Well and eniment. It's really still the director who's supposed
to talk to the actor.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
It was very different. They don't even want the writer
to come. You should not go to a film set
if you're a writer, unless you're like an Oscar winning writer.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Right, And this is a better experience than that. I remember.
I know you had Allen Coulter on who I loved too.
I think I had written one. It still took me
a while to understand, like the rhythm of a film set,
because like you you know, we go, we see the
as soon as you finished filming one scene, you go
see the rehearsal of the next scene. Nobody's in costume
(26:46):
yet they haven't done their hair and makeup for that scene.
You see the rehearsal and then the director comes up,
they light. There's so much that happens.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Well.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
The rehearsal to me was like the first time hearing
the actors read it, since like the table read maybe
or changes. Yeah, so I would be I remember with
Alan one time, I like had thoughts about it and
he goes Cindy, and this was nice of him to
tell me, and I remember it forever. He said, this
would be like me leaning over your shoulder while you're
writing a first draft, telling you, like what I think,
(27:15):
Like I'm going to work it out. The actors are
going to have thoughts and then when if you still
feel like right issues And he was right. And it
took me a while to just learn the rhythm of
like when it was okay to interject or good to interject,
because a lot of times, you guys would arrive at
whatever was bothering me from the very beginning work. Well,
that's good. It was only like once in a while
would never be something in the staging of the rehearsal
(27:37):
that you knew you needed to say something because it
was going to be too late. That we don't wit
for sure for sure, but it took we want to learn.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Sense because in your mind you have written the scene.
Therefore you have visualized the scene, right, And that's the
weird thing about writing, right, is like in our industry, writing,
of course is tremendously important, but then sometimes you guys
are kind of pushed to the side, like please be
quiet now, which is not really because it's a collaborative
art space that we don't we can't do our job
(28:05):
by ourselves, and you can't do your job and you
can write it, but then it's just going to be
on the page, you know what I mean. We could
act by ourselves like on the street or whatever, but
you know, we need each other. And then the director's
in the middle of it all, and in depending on
the director, they're either more open or less open or
you know whatnot. I mean, everyone's different and I also
think it's so interesting the vibe that's created. And one
(28:27):
of the things I love about the old show and
the new show, you know, is that it was always
a very creative, you know place where people like I
always felt, before we ever had a title or anything, right,
that I was very included in the process. In Charlotte's
trajectory and her arc. You know, Mike would always sit
(28:47):
us down at the beginning before we went to work
and say this is the plan, and then he would
call us if it was changing, or he'd come grab
us on the set and say can I talk to you?
And you know, then we would come to you, like
if we read something. I remember one time I had
one of those really long Charlotte monologues, you know, where
I just talked for like half a page or whatever,
and I'm upset about something, you know what I mean.
I think it was in the in the Tray era,
(29:09):
and I came to you in the hallway of Silver
Cup and I was like, Cindy, you know, I just
feel like, you know, it's just hard to because you
remember how we had to be word perfect.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Oh yeah, it's comedy.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
It's a comedy. It's exact right, it doesn't happen, don't know.
I mean that was the that was the president said,
and I think it's a good one because it wasn't.
We didn't have an audience there to tell a sip.
We were hitting the jokes right, So we had to
trust the writing, you know, we had to trust the
rhythms of the writing and the rhythms of the writing.
And let me tell you when we did. And just
(29:39):
like that, and we brought our new actors and I
mean they're still talking about how.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Hard it is.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Oh really, because it's very specific, you know, and each
character is also very specific from each other. And like
my rhythm up talking, my syntax is not the same
as charlotte syntax, right, And then sometimes depending on who
wrote what episode, you'd be like, oh, I just can't
say this. It can't get my mouth to form the words,
you know what I mean. And I came to it
(30:03):
and I was like, can we change it? And you
were like no, Oh my god, that's a rood of me.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Well, since Sex and See, I feel like I've worked
on and when I directed a movie, I really wanted
it to be a bit more playful and have more
room for that, like I think, but I have noticed
because I've now worked on some dramas and I don't
know why, because I love comedy so much so I
feel like I should be just But I've worked on
dramas and I feel like it's somehow less precise. And
it can be because it's very much the feeling and
(30:29):
the plot and like you want the but comedy sometimes
it's just like it's not funny one way, and it
is funny.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I think it's the rhythm of the words. You know,
the rhythm of the words is super duper important. And
I think the rhythm of the actors is also important,
because you can't really teach comic timing. But I think
that they have to work together right, and so sometimes
you guys would change stuff, and I remember thinking that
at the time, I don't know what was true, but
I remember thinking I probably waited too long, because you know,
(30:57):
there'd be like right after the table read, different people
would request changes. And do you know what I mean,
I waited till the hallway.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
So you're the same as me on the set, like
when exactly do I enter right early but not too late.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I also think for so long I never asked for
anything because I was just so happy storyline right, Yeah,
And so it was getting to word like I had
a lot more because of Trey and I had these long,
like emotional things rather than because in the beginning. At
a certain point I have my like didactic like I'm
going to get married and I've got this book and
this book says done, which I haven't really gotten to yet,
which I thought was first season. But first season, I'm
(31:31):
just kind of there, like, you know, not quite one
hundred percent knowing what to do or whatever.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I can't tell at all.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Thank you so much. When I look, that's what I see.
I see me underneath a layer of like pretend calm,
you know what I mean, which obviously all of us
feel at some point.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
But I feel like I knew Charlotte right from the
baby floor, from the baby shower. For my first episode
I watched, which You're.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Very Charlotte, which I remember, like Jenny also Upper Eastside,
you know, like once you guys came, I was like, oh,
thank god, Oh thank god, I'm going to get some
good storylines. They get me, they get me, I mean me,
but also Charlotte.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, what I'm saying a romantic I mean, I think
of it just like the romantic side of it.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, I mean you got married with a white horse.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
I mean yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
You know, all of us have our you know, our visions,
and we try to make them come true, right, and
that's kind of glorious.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
No, it is do your beauty of Charlotte. I think
it was like very optimistic.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
She was also like, you know, she was gonna work hard,
She's going to do what it took. She was not
going to give up. You know. You gotta love that.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Yeah, all right, shall we talk about this particularly so
this is evolution, which is also like such a great
I don't really I'm just rediscovering all of it when
I watch it because I don't really remember it exactly, you.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Know, and I thought I did, and then when I rewatched,
I was like, oh, I forgot that storyline. I forgot
the fertility, like the me too, freezing your eggs was
in there, me too. I forgot the Samantha story, which
is like I love that moment. There's a moment where
Charlotte is like, like, Samantha getting her heartbroken was more
confusing to Charlotte than a kiss from a gay man.
(33:24):
And you're like, you're just bewilderment and everything in this
episode I love.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I really enjoyed it. So I totally forgot John Chay,
Oh yeah, was in our show. How did I not
remember this? I was like, oh my god, what am
I watching?
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Watching?
Speaker 1 (33:40):
And he said that we had so many I mean,
and right now is when like it's really kicking in
because people know what the show is now. The third
season is going to be you know, next level, right,
but like now is when we're really getting all the
good people and writing all the good storylines. And it
was so sad for Samantha. I felt really bad. I
didn't remember this at all, this whole plan that she's
(34:01):
basically this man John o'sha is he's almost like a
different version of mister Big in a way right where
she dated him when he was you know, a big
deal and then he dropped her for a model that
he married, and then they broke up and it was
an ugly divorce and he had fallen in stature, which
kind of made me laugh because now, if you're having
an ugly divorce, I don't really think it affects the men,
(34:21):
do you know what I mean? Doesn't know might affect
the women, might not. I don't know, it's like everyone's
having an ugly divorce basically, but whatever, that was interesting.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Like you fell from the cover of Fortune to like page.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Six exactly, exactly exactly. But so then she has a
whole plan, and I love the way that you created
this storyline for her because it makes total sense and
you don't really see it coming that. It's not going
to be like a kind of regular Samantha storyline, right yea,
there's a whole plan that she's going to date this
man again, even though Carry's like what are you doing?
(34:55):
You really hurt you and we're all like huh what,
oh what?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah, Car said like he is the man who broke
her heart and you're just like what And you know
that was a possible story then got hurt.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Which is pretty cool, and she seems you see that
in her performance where she's like, well, I have a
plan and I'm going to leave him before he does
it to me. But then it doesn't go to plan.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I think her plan was like right before they even
have sex, she was going to be like right by
then she's like, well maybe after sex, and then maybe.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
She thought she wouldn't have feelings because if you think
about the very first pilot episode, she's like, I'm going
to have a sex like a man without feelings, right, yea,
so it makes total perfect sense. But she wasn't born
like that, right, She went through things to get there.
So it's kind of an interesting like backstory that we
kind of don't ever really get. Also, I literally mentioned
(35:46):
my parents. I think at one point I'm like, what
you guys, they're in Connecticut. I think we knew that part.
But and then I think also previously in a Jenny episode,
I say, oh, we don't talk about feelings and we
just are very good at tennis.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
And which episode I can't even remember which episode, but
the one where you're in the spawn You're like, I
didn't grow up in a naked house?
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Was up?
Speaker 2 (36:10):
I forgot? I think we wouldn't know that.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
I mean little tidbits, little tidbits where if we collected
them all, they make a pretty good picture. But I
love the whole that we don't spend time on the
backstory generally speaking. But okay, so we have we have this.
Let's just talk about our guest starts for a second
because they're so great. So we've got John Shay as
Dominic who's the smith's drill, and we've got Dan Futterman
(36:34):
just to dream.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Dreamy, I mean in every way because in the episode
we're not sure Charlotte like if he's gay or straight,
goes on a date with them, like says, I didn't
watch my hair, I wore last like it wasn't a date.
He kisses her. This amazing and it's good. So when
we cast that, when we were casting, when Dan Fetterman,
I can't even believe he came in to read because
(36:56):
he's like a big actor. I would we even know,
But anyway he did, and both Jenny and I were enamored,
and Darren and Michael were enamored. Every it's perfect. Everybody
loves him.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yes, now, let me ask you this about this storyline,
because this is one of the storylines. When I thought
back on it, because it's Butterman, all we remember is Bututterman, right,
But then I did remember that there was some kind
of a metrosexual conversation, which was a word at the time.
It's not a word anymore.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
No, I mean, I don't know if that's when ages that. Well,
the discussion of gay street manastery gay men like this
is one of those things where I look back and
I think, well, at the time, it seemed hilarious and
forward thinking, and now it feels like very binary, and
like I'm embarrassed that that was how we talked about it.
But you kind of I don't know if you can
judge like you then n we're right now that we
(37:41):
would write it that way.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
No, of course we wouldn't write it that way. But
I also thought, because I had Benito Skinner on last week,
huh have you watched his show over Compensating? Oh my god,
it's so good to be Okay, not only is it
so good, you quote Charlotte often, which is adorable on
his podcast, not in the show. And he told me
when he came on the pod that when he so
he created videos for Instagram during the pandemic and then
(38:02):
put them on YouTube. This is how he became successful.
It's incredible, right, He's incredibly inspiring and awesome. So when
he got his show picked up at Amazon Prime, it's
called overcompensating, and it's about kind of pretending that he
wasn't gay and overcompensating so that no one would notice
that he was, in fact gay. And the journey to
in college coming out right. It's a very funny and
(38:24):
adorable show and very reminiscent of early day sex in
the city. He told me when he came on the
pod that he once he got the show picked up,
he was like, oh my god, what do I do now?
And he watched the show throughout the whole show three
times to study the structure.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Wo isn't that cool? I mean, I think that's the
thing is that there's still very individual stories. There's still
men of a lot of trouble coming out. There's still
women who are confused whether if someone's gay or not,
people who.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Are like it's all very fluid, Like he wasn't inside confused,
but he was presenting you so like he has a
best friend that he tries to date. Yeah, but they
don't have sex because he's actually gay, and he kind
of knows he's gay, but he doesn't want anyone else
to know. So then he rags to the frat boys
that he I can't repeat it. It involves sex wherever
(39:13):
he rags, and then she finds out, and then they
have a fight and then they make up and they're
best friends. Right, And so he what he said to
me is like the healing of having you know, gay friends,
gay male whatever with women friends, like there's a healing
in it, you know, and they can rely on each other.
And I thought that was just so great.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
I think for me, the lesson is, like you can
tell any individual story that's true and that's true to you.
Like if that's so, I think that's a defense you
can still use, and it can be as specific and
it can I think what was fun about section in
the day at the time is that we could make
these pronouncements that felt real and like in the Zeitgeisten
(39:53):
did start conversations and we're fun, but they were kind
of generalizing about men or women or gay you know.
So at the time it seem hilarious that we were
capturing something that seemed true. But I think maybe because
it was trying to be generalizing that made it like
when you look back, maybe we were.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
I also think at the time, I believe that we
were all going around talking about metrosexual and they were
all writing magazines about metrosexual, which I think if I
don't know if I'm right, but it was basically like
a straight man theoretically who grooms themselves like a gay man?
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Right, and culturally, we thought, yeah, we have culture things
that we thought were gay, right, which not necessarily but
like great style, great culture or references. Right, Yeah, but
we don't.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Ever use the word metrosexual in the episode, which I
thought we did, but we don't. We do we talk
about gay straight men and gay straight gay men or whatever,
which also like I was like, I don't even know
what the heck we're saying, but whatever, it's super interesting, right,
But basically I do ask him have you ever been
with a man? And then he asked me if I've
ever been with a woman? And I don't answer, which
I find weird also, right, and then this is where
(41:01):
I thought was also interesting because I couldn't remember the details.
I just knew it was like a questionable storyline, right,
But it's also Dan Futterman, So yeah, we love it.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
I love it still, Like I stand by it. I
just think like some of those things don't diet an
age as well. But I still love the storyline and
like you trying to make sense of like.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
What is happening? Yeah, yeah, And then at the end
when the mouse is there and he jumps on the
chair and kind of squeals, and then the voiceover says
something to the effect of Charlotte wasn't well enough developed
in her masculine side to be with someone who was
so well developed in their feminine side. Yeah, something like that,
which is a very deep statement. And that's fine to say,
(41:41):
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
No, I think it. I mean, I think it. I
mean I love that whole. As someone who's been confused
myself and married someone who realized he was gay after
being married, I feel uniquely qualified to say that it's
confusing sometimes.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Yes, it is confusing, and.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
You do kind of want some clarity sometimes just because
you need to. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
So I don't do anything wrong with one in clarity.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Yeah, And so I love that in that scene when
when you ask him in bed and he says like,
I'm a pastry chef who lives in Chelsea. If I
were gay, I would be gay totally, like, which was
really smart.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
At that time.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
It's true, like he wouldn't he could.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Wouldn't you just be You'd be doing great? He would be, Yeah,
I mean very busy. Your schedule would be booked and
you're adorable.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
But I also love in this from this scene where
you bring Carrie and Stanford to the place for the
pastries just to decide yes.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
And it must have been like the casting of of Futterman,
because literally everyone at the table likes him. Yeah right,
like every like Willie says, Stanford says will I'm attracted
to him, so he must be straight, which is so funny.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
And all the good ones are straight, even the gay ones.
It was really, really, God Willy, I know.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
It was.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
That's a fun one to rewatch though, of him. So fun.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
All right, you guys, it is too much fun to
have Cindy Schuback here. So we are going to come
back for part two later in the week. Please join
us on Are You a Charlotte
Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know, are
you a Charlotte. You guys, it's an exciting day, and
are you a Charlotte because Cindy Schubreck is here. We
have been waiting so excited for you to come. Cindy
came to be on the show as a writer originally
she's gonna tell us all about it in nineteen ninety nine,
(00:24):
many years ago. And you and Jenny then in my mind,
became like this super powerhouse pair who really like took
the reins of the female voice. You know. People would
sometimes complain thinking we only had male writers because Darren
was so outfront and then Michael Patrick, but really we
always had you guys in my mind, you know, and
(00:46):
you really had such a really incredible input in terms
of like your own stories, and you know, like for Charlotte,
some of them were just like so important from both
you and Jenny, and like for me when I think
at the show that really, you know, it was the
heart and the soul and the foundation of like where
(01:08):
our characters got to go and deepen into. So we're super.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Excited to hear yes. I mean it's funny because Michael
to me and Michael could write anybody and anything, of course,
and I know you mean that, but yeah, Jenny was
actually a friend I had made before I came aboard
this show. I know this, and I was working on
every Boy Loves Raymond.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Well, I didn't remember this theater.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
This is a big thing because it was sort of
like I had an affair with Sex and the City
because I had been working with a writing partner for
like seven years, and on the side, I used to
write these columns like once a year, this thing about
dating for a glamor, and then I could never use
as a samples because when you're working with a partner,
you have to do things you did together, right, And
I was working she had kids already, so we had
(01:53):
been on all sorts of shows that weren't at all
about what I was living interesting, and we were finally
at a point where we were going to separate, and
wroteenthal who ran every Bay Loves Raymond, let us each
write an episode. So I had my own episode of
Everybody Loves Raymond, and then I was going to write
a spec and Sex and the City had just started.
It was in season one, and I knew Jenny was
working on it, and I told her I was gonna
(02:13):
write a spect and she's like, you should come in freelance,
Like you should come in and pitch. So that's what
Phil let me do. From everybody loves Raymond. I love Phil,
I mean me too. I don't think he I mean
I think he regrets it, maybe still, but which I
will want you.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Phil, I appreciate that. We all really appreciate that you
cheese everybody.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I know.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
He's a good guy.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
He's and these are great writers. Like that was a
great we were finally I was finally on a good
show that was going to last on Raymond. So my dad,
who was an accountant, was like, what are you doing?
But I from the minute I pitched to Michael and
Darren and Jenny encouraged me, which was so nice of
her to share that. Like so it was it was
like I was so excited to pitch because everything I
(02:57):
had written in a little journal of things I wanted
to write about our essays or a movie I might
want to write everything could work on that show. Because
I was the same age as you guys at that time.
It just felt like everything I talked to my friends
about and everything I wondered about and in fact, I
was at Everybody Loves This is such a long answer, so.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
It was good a long answer.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I was at Everybody Loves Raymond and one of the
guys brought in a VCR. I remember that of Sex
and the City, and he's like, my wife loves this show.
I don't get it. It was at lunch it played. It
was the baby Shower episode, and I hadn't seen it,
and I remember all the boys slowly trickled out. It
was mostly met on the show, of course, and at Raymond,
(03:38):
and they all trickled out and went to lunch, and
I was sitting there and I was like crying by
the end of it. I couldn't believe how much it
spoke to about what I bought about, and like how
deep it was to me, and like the idea of
our you gonn advocate And then remember she had taken
your baby. Remember there was like such big laughs, but
(03:59):
there were also just to me, these really deep, meaningful conversations.
Absolutely I hadn't heard, and so I was like enamored
of the show. And so I went and pitched and
Mike clinn. So that's when I did the episode of
the Chicken dance as a freelancer, so I did not.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Realize you were a free lancer and you did like
a absolutely iconic episode. I mean, Cynthia and I just
talked about it last week and Cynthia said, because they
were asking me, where are you in the in the
rewatching and I told them and I said, you know,
Cindy couldn't come on for Chicken Dance, which is coming
on for the next one. And Cindy said, oh, I
recommend Chicken Dance to anyone who hasn't seen the show
(04:38):
or young people who want to see it for the
first time, because it's not particularly dirty, right, but it's
the gist of the four women characters.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Oh interesting, Yeah, And that was I thought that.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Was so smart because all I remembered about the Chicken
Dance was the difficult storyline that I have, which is,
you know, the groomsman's father groping me on the dance floor.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
So you like it, and you had an entire relationship
during the wedding with what.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Also so bizarre start exactly. That's the which so much
fun about rewatching. There's so many great things. One is
that there are things I remember really vividly, and then
there's things where there's just nothing right, and I'm like,
I never know what I'm going to do, Like like
in the one that Jenny had written, the threesomeone where
I'm having a dream and it looks like I'm about
(05:25):
to have a threesome.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I was I'm gonna have a cent.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
I remember that. Oh my god, how great of Charlotte,
you know what I mean. But no, no, no, it's
just a dream. I didn't have a three cent, but
I literally don't know. And also in the in the
Chicken Dance, I don't remember going up to the room
that I'm preparing for the bread and Room and having
sex there with that dude very at all, which obviously
I didn't really have something. But you know, I'm saying, yeah,
pretty suppersive for Charlotte, and she does a lot of stuff.
(05:51):
But then we come down and he tells me that
I look like a whore in my beautiful dress, and
I'm like, oh, but I think, and it's a good
example because I think what you do so brilliantly, and
really all of our writers, but when you came you
could get the embarrassment, the kind of going out on
a limb emotionally with the humor, with the depth, all
(06:13):
of those things, and that's the specialness of the show,
I think, and the writing is the reason for it well.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
And then that you guys could carry off anything that
was so fun.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
It was like, but you guys, you know, you don't
really have writing like that very often when it's really
asking you to fire on all cylinders.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, you know, That's what I feel like I remember
about the show is just everybody was firing on all cylinders.
And I feel like I knew it at the time.
I mean, part way in, I was thinking, this is
going to be the best job I ever have. And
that's either sad or just like amazing that I'm here
right now. But I felt like the actors of costume,
the directors, we were getting and you know, from the
(06:51):
moment of like nobody's heard of the show and somebody
brought it in on a tape to like I think
when I joined you guys, that was the first year
at the Golden Globes and we were like jumping out
in the kitchen and suddenly people were watching. And then
we'd walk around New York and you'd hear people talking
about it. Yeah, So not only did I love what
we were doing and who I was working with, but
people work. It was in the zeitgeist very yeah. So yeah,
(07:13):
I felt like this is everybody lightning in a bottle.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Amazing, yes, absolutely, and smart that you knew it. I
mean I don't know that I really knew it until
I feel like I knew it third season.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
But maybe I probably didn't know it right away, right.
I just was happy to be there.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Joy of the actual experience is what was you know,
so amazing because you don't always have that, right. You
could be on an amazing show. Everybody loves Raymond's an
amazing show, but like you said, it wasn't necessarily what
you were thinking about in life, right, And that was
true for me also obviously with Sex and City, I'm
a single, thirty five year old whatever, thirty foot why,
I don't know how old we were something thirty something, Yeah,
(07:50):
and you know the things that you are already thinking
of and talking about and or curious about or whatever
is their story. It's crazy, right, like, so unusual and
obviously hadn't happened then, and I don't know really has
happened again, because I think we had kind of a
unique situation in terms of HBO allowing us, you know,
to do whatever we want.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, and I think so much there's very little that's
not said anymore.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Well, this is true.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
When we were hot, right, there were still things to
be said that people hadn't said aloud. And now I
feel like very true, maybe even artly because of us.
Not to take credit for that, but I feel like
my friends who didn't used to talk about some of
those things that we talked about then would and men
would too. And so now everybody writes their own every
you know, everybody says everything absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
So tell us back. So you wrote the chicken nance
on spec. So for anyone listening who doesn't really know
what that means, tell us exactly what inspect means.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
As a freelancer. So I came in and pitched, and
they listened to a few ideas. They liked that idea.
That was really what was happening in my life right then.
I had bought this house on my own, and somebody
everybody said like, as soon as you buy a place,
someone will propose. And then I had people hostitting and
they got engaged in my house and it's supposed to
be to me, and they had me write a poem
(09:02):
for their wedding, so everything oh the time.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
For example, you don't.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Know he got them.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
That's why you were right reading.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
He didn't happen leave, but he had given me the
pink toothbrush head, which was like big to me.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
But then it's like they met, got engaged, were getting
married and he's just my date and as as far
as I got is like the pink toothbrushead. And so
I did start crying during the poem the poem, yeah,
and I did kind of play it off as like
I was overcome by emotion, but really also.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Oh my god. The other thing that I love about
having a podcast and getting to discuss things like this
is that, you know, there was always this kind of
vague thought that the stories in the show were our actors' stories,
and we would always try to tell someone no, no, no,
they're not our stories because that'd be weird. They're you know,
ore writer stories, and they have an agreement that everything
is going to be either their story or once removed,
(09:54):
people know someone who's actually going through it, but to
hear you how close it was to your life.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
And it wasn't always that a to B like right,
but we definitely yeah, but that one when I pitched it,
they loved that idea. So I got to write that one,
and then I got to come to New York and
be at the table read, which to me because I
had only seen you guys on television and even though
I worked in TV, I worked in you know, like
in front of an audience in four camera sitcoms ol sessions.
(10:20):
It comes right, and this was like, you know, you guys,
I think it was at ABC carpet during lunch when
you were filming something at Equinox or something already. It
felt really cool to me, but I was really intimidated.
And I also was intimidated because the script you were
reading like had come off my printer, like nobody changed
very much. Like I definitely got input when I was
(10:42):
breaking the story and all, but it was kind of
like getting your bluff called because writers always complain, you know, right,
so much got changed, but I was like, why did
no one all help me out?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
This is bad?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
This is just bad for me, Oh my.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
God, But it was so good, That's why no one changed.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And it was quiet because you guys were like grown
ups and you'd have to laugh. So the so the
network knew it was funny, like we did on his sitcom, right,
so it's really quiet the whole time, the whole difference.
Maybe everyone was very nice afterwards. And then after that
I asked my agent, like, do you think I could
go on there? And so he like asked, and I
got to go there. And then I think maybe they
(11:18):
regretted letting me do it from everybody else, right, But
I was like, I'm already in love with this whole process.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So then you left.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Everybody loves women always between seasons, so I just didn't reap,
but I think got it. Everybody thought it would because
it was finally a successful show and it was really
fun to write, and I wrote about my family, but
it wasn't like writing Sex and the City.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Of course, nothing is nothing was obviously for sure, And
we're just so thankful that you came to us.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
My god, I am.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I did have a very weird conversation though, which kind
of now has some interesting backstory to it. One time
with Ray Ramono on television where he told me that
women weren't funny. Oh yeah, and I say interest, but
we were on television, so I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Were you what was that?
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Some kind of a was it Bill Maher used to
have a show that had more than one personal Yeah, yeah,
maybe that show. So it was like a guy based show.
And I think that was the only woman sitting there,
do you know what I mean? And I was kind
of like, and I think we knew you'd come from
there on some level at least I was like, wait,
is this guy?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
So I feel like, okay, maybe he was overstating hopefully,
and I just did a thing that was like a
reunion of the Raymond writers. But I do remember like
I said something funny, and I remember them kind of
still looking surprised that I said all these years.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
And you feel like that's a real thing in commedy.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Like happily, not surprised, like how could you, but just
surprise I said something.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I remember thinking that, like it's a holdover from like
you know, it's a sexist kind of a holdover that
we still need to get totally rid of, right, And
that was kind of the joy of our show is
that there were four of us and all of you
guys started writing and writing your own series or women writers,
and yes there was Darren and Michael Patrick of course,
but then like we got more and more, and we're gonna,
you know, obviously as we go on, we'll get everyone on,
(13:07):
hopefully because that would be really really fun. But you know,
just to be able to succeed without it being a
traditional sitcom, right, So I think women obviously had already
done great over there in regular sitcom land, right to
have it be kind of like a little almost like
an indie film, almost like a sitcom, oh, you know,
like we it was very.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Different at the time, very different like whenever I pitched
a sort of a woman centric show, it was always like, okay,
but they they're dating, but what's their job or whatever.
It was never I could just see about friendship and
dating really in life, and in the right that was right.
So it was really fun. And also, yeah, it did
look very filmic. I remember people were really addicted kind
of to a laugh track. So there was a lot
(13:47):
of fear about like what single camera was, and there
was a lot of hybrid will be kind of single
camera but some kind of on right. But Second City
did such a good job of making it film and
I think using music, and it didn't feel quiet and
it was like.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Not at all, yeah, not at all. But also to
me even when I look back, because it is I
am so able to be more objective now than you know,
because I only would ever watch it right when before
it came out on HBO. They would give us the
vhs and we take them home and watch them, and
sometimes there's still be like placeholders or whatever. It wouldn't
be totally finished right, and then I would probably not
(14:21):
ever see it again, you know. So I'm rewatching and
so amazed by so many things and so many things.
I'm like, it is so good and I don't know
that I was able to feel that at the time,
like to really think in I knew it was special
and different, and I knew that our vibe when we
were doing it had that like faculty energy of something special,
(14:43):
you know. But then to see it now from all
these many years later, and see how the writing holds up,
how on point you guys are about so many things,
like the I think this is so this is our
episode that we're discussing today is Evolution, which you wrote
and Pam Thomas directs, who was great director, and I
don't know why we never had her back maybe you know,
(15:04):
I don't know, so great And it's got the incredible
Dan Futterman in it, which we're going to talk to
next week, which will be really fun. But the thing
that I'm wondering about, because I just watched this is
when we have the incredible episode where Brandon talks about
freezing her eggs.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yes, I watched it last night too, right, the guy
with the hair.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Plus right, it's so good. But also that shot where
they're in the freezer and she and Gary says, right now,
there were no eggs in her freezer.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Thomas did that great, like from shot and also from
behind the medicine cabinet medicine so good.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I mean, she was so visual, Pam Thomas was so visual.
But like, that's how new egg freezing was that. First
of all, this jerk on this date with her is
gonna you know, criticize the idea of you know, science, right,
you know, creating babies or whatever. Oh my god. And
then obviously he's just had hair blood, so she's just
like wait, you know, which is so well written and
(16:03):
so great. But also the fact that then she goes
into her freezer and there's vodka in there, and carry goes,
you know, for now there's no It's so funny funny.
And it's funny because I remember at the time eyeing
everyone was like, wait, what.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Do you mean? What how does I remember? Like and
should I do that?
Speaker 3 (16:23):
That?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Smart?
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Do you go?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
The fertility savings account?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
All of it was new. It's crazy to think about that.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, well, I mean because we did write a lot
from experience. But I remember when we did all the
infertility stuff for Charlotte, I hadn't had children yet and
like hadn't gone through that and then did afterward, and
I remember a lot of that I think came from
Michael Patrick King and his friends who had gone through
it right. So again, like the men could write the
hell out of it anything. But I felt like later
(16:54):
like wow, that we did kind of nail it. I
was kind of that was when of those things looking back,
I went, oh it did. I mean, I alway felt like, oh,
I could have added more because now I understand more.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
But I thought the same thing with my acting. Yeah,
I was like I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I couldn't do more.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
I could have done more a big time. I don't
know if that would have been needed necessarily, but like,
once you start to go through those actual things, there
is no high or low that is too high or
too low.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
It's in that field. Oh yes, right, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
The adoption too, you know, like it happens pretty pretty simply. Yeah,
and it's not that simple, as we both know.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
No, no, but.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
I mean I love that we did it, and maybe
we I don't even know if the show would have
benefited from more detail, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
No, it's more about the emotion, that's the thing. Yeah,
that's the thing. I sometimes I just think back, well,
I just looked at it kind of a nod that
like you did capture it, and it's somehow captured, you know,
close to what it was. But it's true, you feel
like I under like this is an odd thing to
stay on it. But I feel like I knew women
who had miscarriages when I was younger, but I didn't
really know what that meant exactly to them and what
(18:01):
kind of a loss that was.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Because I don't think people talked about it.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
They didn't, which is sad, and so it really didn't
like there were some things you kind of do have
to go through to understand the depth of what it
feels like to the person. And even if you have
really good friends who went through it, it's just not
quite the same, So that's true.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I have to say, I think with the Charlotte miscarriage,
I think the writing was beautiful and I had enough.
I don't want to say lost, because that's not exactly
the right word, but I had enough understanding from my
friends and from just my own personal journey, not that
I had been through that then it definitely had it,
(18:42):
but you know, I had enough to draw on that,
I think. And again, this is one of those things
where like Hindsight is twenty twenty in some ways, but
then also like our show has the ability to have
the incredibly serious storylines but still be able to get out,
you know, to come to a place. So like had
(19:03):
we known more, had been able to get up off
the sofa, get herself dressed up and go to that party.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I don't know, well, I should say I think for you,
I'm not going to speak for you because you're right here,
But for actors, maybe you're used to playing things you
haven't you don't you know how to draw on other things,
And I guess as a writer I did the same.
But just sometimes sometimes when you're writing and you know,
like something's going to be a real gut punch, you
can feel it in your gut. Yeah, you don't have
to have gone through it, but like I can feel like, oh,
(19:30):
this almost makes me cry to write it. And now
this is like something I feel like I kind of
would have had more of that feeling maybe, but.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
That's how it turned out. And I think people talk
to me a lot about it now still, so you
know over time that that's something that people connect with
and isn't that the whole game? Right? So so yes,
we can.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
No, I'm so and I'm so happy that it's I
do feel like we're probably I'm probably more critical, but
I'm so happy it holds up, like I feel like,
and that's because really the themes of it, the love,
the friendship, the loss, the longing, the like, loneliness, everything
was the universal thing that whether you're texting or you're
waiting for a phone call, it was kind of universal.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yes, And that's why I'm doing the podcast really because
all these new people discovered it. But being on Netflix,
right and then I really people had asked, you know,
since podcasts became a thing, and I just didn't feel
ready to look at it because we were all together
doing and just like that, I felt like I had
kind of a good advantage point of like, well, we're
here now and look at how we began, and also
(20:35):
I haven't watched them, and also I really wanted everyone's
stories to be told. This is the joy of podcasting, right, Yeah,
so all these people who've been our fans forever or
new people can hear about what it was like to
create it, and like you're saying, like, you know, the
feeling of being in New York in the beginning when
we didn't really know what it was going to be,
but it had that like sizzily feeling, you know, and
(20:57):
like that process of like walking around and having people
start to talk to us about it and all of that,
Like being there is incredible to think about. Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Was it was really exciting? Yeah, And it was just
I think even if it hadn't caught on, it was
really nice to be writing and doing something that felt
so relevant to what we were going through, what our
friends were going through.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Absolutely absolutely, and I'm just going to have a little
just moment to talk about it and just like that,
you know, whether and just like that obviously never going
to be Sex and City. I don't ever think we
ever thought it was going to be Sex and City,
but again, we wanted to tell the stories of what
we're going through in our thirties.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I think that's an important point, right, is that like
here we were, it was COVID. You know, COVID had
just ended. We were just able to go back out,
and the thing that we had always been doing was
talking about what was happening for us in our lives
at this time, not necessarily my Christian story, but.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Like all the people we know and just like life
goes on, Yeah, and why wouldn't that be something?
Speaker 1 (21:56):
But I think maybe we were a little bit overly
ambitious thinking that our fans. I'm gonna laugh, I shouldn't
really laugh, but it's kind of funny when I think
about it now, like how naive in a way at
least I was that our fans he has like you're
talking about death and cancer. Like we were like, yeah,
(22:18):
let's do it. And then everybody's like what are they doing?
You know what I mean? And now it's over, which
is sad. But I'm are you going to go there?
But you know I'm in denial. I'm in denial because
we've ended so many times. So let's talk a little.
(22:41):
I'm wanting hear more. So you said, your agent, I
want to go right on that show? Could I go
right on that show? He says, yes, he gets you
deal over there. You leave Raymond, You moved to New York. Yeah,
got it, Like we did half and half to me too, right,
We were all back and forth. So you kept your
house here, you went to New York and then where
you were, you and Jenny, you would have your own scripts. Yeah,
(23:01):
wid you at some point were you consulting producers and
then executive producers? What was that journey? Like, I can't remember.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I think I was already like a co executive producer
at Raymond, and I think I just came on as
a consulting producer because literally it was a big pay
cup from what I was doing. I was finally making money.
But I was like, I don't care what the title is,
and there were certain anyway, It's just that it was
like all work for whatever at the time, and then
as it was great, but I think it was just
(23:29):
like I don't care about the title. I just want
to be there. So I started as a consulting producer,
got it, and then yeah, eventually became a co executive
and Jenny both.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yeah, and did you were you together with Jenny in
terms of like we're a partnership co executive producer. That's
how I felt you guys were, huh, But I don't
think you technically were. No, we were just like Julian
and a Lisa are a technical partnership.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I think we just like were in sync a lot
of times. We were like the two girls and when
it was like Michael and Darren.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, but yeah, she mean you to have your own scripts.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, yeah, we did. We collaborated on one, like the
last We collaborated on splat the very end, and that
was so fun to write with Jenny, so oh my god.
But I collaborated with Michael on a different one too,
so yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
But so it was like kind of a small group
of writers at that point, and you would collaborate and
or just be in the writer's room together, yeah, brainstorming,
and then on the set with us all the time,
which is the other thing people really don't realize. No,
And was that unusual for you at the time, Well.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, it was my first single camera so I hadn't
even been on those kind of sets right out in
the world, right, But also even since then, like I've
done a lot and I haven't ever been on a
show where you're there that much and where even you're
doing the writing there like either in a restaurant nearby
or upstairs by the camera.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Set with your lapshop open on your lap which would
be Michael Patrick King.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, you like to be there, and like not all
show runners want to be there for everything, and and
so we would just go along and while we were
still writing. But it was great because we got to
really like be the.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Process and I know, so it was great for us
because you know, if we had a question, we could
just go over to you and we didn't have to
worry if the director, we feel was like totally knowledgeable
about the characters or the storyline or whatever. We could
just check in with you guys, which was amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yes right, no, yes, no you could. I don't know
if all the directors loved that.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
You know what.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
On my very first on Chicken Dance, Yes, oh, I
think you asked me something which I answered because I
didn't know the protocol of all that. And then I
remember the director at the time who I saw recently
at a DJA, I think, and she's still angry with
me about this, and I was like, I didn't know.
But anyway, she said something at the time like, oh,
is that what we're gonna do? A good cup, bad cup?
(25:39):
And I was like, what, I don't even know what
I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
I just answer a question, but my god.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
But anyway, that was unusual. Most of them totally appreciated
and I never came back. Please, if you're listening, Victoria,
I am sorry. I didn't know how it worked.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
I was new.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I was just excited to be there.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah, but I'm sure I was just excited to ask
you a question and you should answer.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
It's like how we're going to play it and come out.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
But you know what I think that is about, and
I think it's interesting to think about it. That is
about the old school TV ways. Yeah, because there was
a hierarchy.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Well and eniment. It's really still the director who's supposed
to talk to the actor.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
It was very different. They don't even want the writer
to come. You should not go to a film set
if you're a writer, unless you're like an Oscar winning writer.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Right, And this is a better experience than that. I remember.
I know you had Allen Coulter on who I loved too.
I think I had written one. It still took me
a while to understand, like the rhythm of a film set,
because like you you know, we go, we see the
as soon as you finished filming one scene, you go
see the rehearsal of the next scene. Nobody's in costume
(26:46):
yet they haven't done their hair and makeup for that scene.
You see the rehearsal and then the director comes up,
they light. There's so much that happens.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Well.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
The rehearsal to me was like the first time hearing
the actors read it, since like the table read maybe
or changes. Yeah, so I would be I remember with
Alan one time, I like had thoughts about it and
he goes Cindy, and this was nice of him to
tell me, and I remember it forever. He said, this
would be like me leaning over your shoulder while you're
writing a first draft, telling you, like what I think,
(27:15):
Like I'm going to work it out. The actors are
going to have thoughts and then when if you still
feel like right issues And he was right. And it
took me a while to just learn the rhythm of
like when it was okay to interject or good to interject,
because a lot of times, you guys would arrive at
whatever was bothering me from the very beginning work. Well,
that's good. It was only like once in a while
would never be something in the staging of the rehearsal
(27:37):
that you knew you needed to say something because it
was going to be too late. That we don't wit
for sure for sure, but it took we want to learn.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Sense because in your mind you have written the scene.
Therefore you have visualized the scene, right, And that's the
weird thing about writing, right, is like in our industry, writing,
of course is tremendously important, but then sometimes you guys
are kind of pushed to the side, like please be
quiet now, which is not really because it's a collaborative
art space that we don't we can't do our job
(28:05):
by ourselves, and you can't do your job and you
can write it, but then it's just going to be
on the page, you know what I mean. We could
act by ourselves like on the street or whatever, but
you know, we need each other. And then the director's
in the middle of it all, and in depending on
the director, they're either more open or less open or
you know whatnot. I mean, everyone's different and I also
think it's so interesting the vibe that's created. And one
(28:27):
of the things I love about the old show and
the new show, you know, is that it was always
a very creative, you know place where people like I
always felt, before we ever had a title or anything, right,
that I was very included in the process. In Charlotte's
trajectory and her arc. You know, Mike would always sit
(28:47):
us down at the beginning before we went to work
and say this is the plan, and then he would
call us if it was changing, or he'd come grab
us on the set and say can I talk to you?
And you know, then we would come to you, like
if we read something. I remember one time I had
one of those really long Charlotte monologues, you know, where
I just talked for like half a page or whatever,
and I'm upset about something, you know what I mean.
I think it was in the in the Tray era,
(29:09):
and I came to you in the hallway of Silver
Cup and I was like, Cindy, you know, I just
feel like, you know, it's just hard to because you
remember how we had to be word perfect.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Oh yeah, it's comedy.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
It's a comedy. It's exact right, it doesn't happen, don't know.
I mean that was the that was the president said,
and I think it's a good one because it wasn't.
We didn't have an audience there to tell a sip.
We were hitting the jokes right, So we had to
trust the writing, you know, we had to trust the
rhythms of the writing and the rhythms of the writing.
And let me tell you when we did. And just
(29:39):
like that, and we brought our new actors and I
mean they're still talking about how.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Hard it is.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Oh really, because it's very specific, you know, and each
character is also very specific from each other. And like
my rhythm up talking, my syntax is not the same
as charlotte syntax, right, And then sometimes depending on who
wrote what episode, you'd be like, oh, I just can't
say this. It can't get my mouth to form the words,
you know what I mean. And I came to it
(30:03):
and I was like, can we change it? And you
were like no, Oh my god, that's a rood of me.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Well, since Sex and See, I feel like I've worked
on and when I directed a movie, I really wanted
it to be a bit more playful and have more
room for that, like I think, but I have noticed
because I've now worked on some dramas and I don't
know why, because I love comedy so much so I
feel like I should be just But I've worked on
dramas and I feel like it's somehow less precise. And
it can be because it's very much the feeling and
(30:29):
the plot and like you want the but comedy sometimes
it's just like it's not funny one way, and it
is funny.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I think it's the rhythm of the words. You know,
the rhythm of the words is super duper important. And
I think the rhythm of the actors is also important,
because you can't really teach comic timing. But I think
that they have to work together right, and so sometimes
you guys would change stuff, and I remember thinking that
at the time, I don't know what was true, but
I remember thinking I probably waited too long, because you know,
(30:57):
there'd be like right after the table read, different people
would request changes. And do you know what I mean,
I waited till the hallway.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
So you're the same as me on the set, like
when exactly do I enter right early but not too late.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I also think for so long I never asked for
anything because I was just so happy storyline right, Yeah,
And so it was getting to word like I had
a lot more because of Trey and I had these long,
like emotional things rather than because in the beginning. At
a certain point I have my like didactic like I'm
going to get married and I've got this book and
this book says done, which I haven't really gotten to yet,
which I thought was first season. But first season, I'm
(31:31):
just kind of there, like, you know, not quite one
hundred percent knowing what to do or whatever.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I can't tell at all.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Thank you so much. When I look, that's what I see.
I see me underneath a layer of like pretend calm,
you know what I mean, which obviously all of us
feel at some point.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
But I feel like I knew Charlotte right from the
baby floor, from the baby shower. For my first episode
I watched, which You're.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Very Charlotte, which I remember, like Jenny also Upper Eastside,
you know, like once you guys came, I was like, oh,
thank god, Oh thank god, I'm going to get some
good storylines. They get me, they get me, I mean me,
but also Charlotte.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, what I'm saying a romantic I mean, I think
of it just like the romantic side of it.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, I mean you got married with a white horse.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
I mean yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
You know, all of us have our you know, our visions,
and we try to make them come true, right, and
that's kind of glorious.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
No, it is do your beauty of Charlotte. I think
it was like very optimistic.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
She was also like, you know, she was gonna work hard,
She's going to do what it took. She was not
going to give up. You know. You gotta love that.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Yeah, all right, shall we talk about this particularly so
this is evolution, which is also like such a great
I don't really I'm just rediscovering all of it when
I watch it because I don't really remember it exactly, you.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Know, and I thought I did, and then when I rewatched,
I was like, oh, I forgot that storyline. I forgot
the fertility, like the me too, freezing your eggs was
in there, me too. I forgot the Samantha story, which
is like I love that moment. There's a moment where
Charlotte is like, like, Samantha getting her heartbroken was more
confusing to Charlotte than a kiss from a gay man.
(33:24):
And you're like, you're just bewilderment and everything in this
episode I love.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I really enjoyed it. So I totally forgot John Chay,
Oh yeah, was in our show. How did I not
remember this? I was like, oh my god, what am
I watching?
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Watching?
Speaker 1 (33:40):
And he said that we had so many I mean,
and right now is when like it's really kicking in
because people know what the show is now. The third
season is going to be you know, next level, right,
but like now is when we're really getting all the
good people and writing all the good storylines. And it
was so sad for Samantha. I felt really bad. I
didn't remember this at all, this whole plan that she's
(34:01):
basically this man John o'sha is he's almost like a
different version of mister Big in a way right where
she dated him when he was you know, a big
deal and then he dropped her for a model that
he married, and then they broke up and it was
an ugly divorce and he had fallen in stature, which
kind of made me laugh because now, if you're having
an ugly divorce, I don't really think it affects the men,
(34:21):
do you know what I mean? Doesn't know might affect
the women, might not. I don't know, it's like everyone's
having an ugly divorce basically, but whatever, that was interesting.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Like you fell from the cover of Fortune to like page.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Six exactly, exactly exactly. But so then she has a
whole plan, and I love the way that you created
this storyline for her because it makes total sense and
you don't really see it coming that. It's not going
to be like a kind of regular Samantha storyline, right yea,
there's a whole plan that she's going to date this
man again, even though Carry's like what are you doing?
(34:55):
You really hurt you and we're all like huh what,
oh what?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah, Car said like he is the man who broke
her heart and you're just like what And you know
that was a possible story then got hurt.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Which is pretty cool, and she seems you see that
in her performance where she's like, well, I have a
plan and I'm going to leave him before he does
it to me. But then it doesn't go to plan.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I think her plan was like right before they even
have sex, she was going to be like right by
then she's like, well maybe after sex, and then maybe.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
She thought she wouldn't have feelings because if you think
about the very first pilot episode, she's like, I'm going
to have a sex like a man without feelings, right, yea,
so it makes total perfect sense. But she wasn't born
like that, right, She went through things to get there.
So it's kind of an interesting like backstory that we
kind of don't ever really get. Also, I literally mentioned
(35:46):
my parents. I think at one point I'm like, what
you guys, they're in Connecticut. I think we knew that part.
But and then I think also previously in a Jenny episode,
I say, oh, we don't talk about feelings and we
just are very good at tennis.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
And which episode I can't even remember which episode, but
the one where you're in the spawn You're like, I
didn't grow up in a naked house?
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Was up?
Speaker 2 (36:10):
I forgot? I think we wouldn't know that.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
I mean little tidbits, little tidbits where if we collected
them all, they make a pretty good picture. But I
love the whole that we don't spend time on the
backstory generally speaking. But okay, so we have we have this.
Let's just talk about our guest starts for a second
because they're so great. So we've got John Shay as
Dominic who's the smith's drill, and we've got Dan Futterman
(36:34):
just to dream.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Dreamy, I mean in every way because in the episode
we're not sure Charlotte like if he's gay or straight,
goes on a date with them, like says, I didn't
watch my hair, I wore last like it wasn't a date.
He kisses her. This amazing and it's good. So when
we cast that, when we were casting, when Dan Fetterman,
I can't even believe he came in to read because
(36:56):
he's like a big actor. I would we even know,
But anyway he did, and both Jenny and I were enamored,
and Darren and Michael were enamored. Every it's perfect. Everybody
loves him.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yes, now, let me ask you this about this storyline,
because this is one of the storylines. When I thought
back on it, because it's Butterman, all we remember is Bututterman, right,
But then I did remember that there was some kind
of a metrosexual conversation, which was a word at the time.
It's not a word anymore.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
No, I mean, I don't know if that's when ages that. Well,
the discussion of gay street manastery gay men like this
is one of those things where I look back and
I think, well, at the time, it seemed hilarious and
forward thinking, and now it feels like very binary, and
like I'm embarrassed that that was how we talked about it.
But you kind of I don't know if you can
judge like you then n we're right now that we
(37:41):
would write it that way.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
No, of course we wouldn't write it that way. But
I also thought, because I had Benito Skinner on last week,
huh have you watched his show over Compensating? Oh my god,
it's so good to be Okay, not only is it
so good, you quote Charlotte often, which is adorable on
his podcast, not in the show. And he told me
when he came on the pod that when he so
he created videos for Instagram during the pandemic and then
(38:02):
put them on YouTube. This is how he became successful.
It's incredible, right, He's incredibly inspiring and awesome. So when
he got his show picked up at Amazon Prime, it's
called overcompensating, and it's about kind of pretending that he
wasn't gay and overcompensating so that no one would notice
that he was, in fact gay. And the journey to
in college coming out right. It's a very funny and
(38:24):
adorable show and very reminiscent of early day sex in
the city. He told me when he came on the
pod that he once he got the show picked up,
he was like, oh my god, what do I do now?
And he watched the show throughout the whole show three
times to study the structure.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Wo isn't that cool? I mean, I think that's the
thing is that there's still very individual stories. There's still
men of a lot of trouble coming out. There's still
women who are confused whether if someone's gay or not,
people who.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Are like it's all very fluid, Like he wasn't inside confused,
but he was presenting you so like he has a
best friend that he tries to date. Yeah, but they
don't have sex because he's actually gay, and he kind
of knows he's gay, but he doesn't want anyone else
to know. So then he rags to the frat boys
that he I can't repeat it. It involves sex wherever
(39:13):
he rags, and then she finds out, and then they
have a fight and then they make up and they're
best friends. Right, And so he what he said to
me is like the healing of having you know, gay friends,
gay male whatever with women friends, like there's a healing
in it, you know, and they can rely on each other.
And I thought that was just so great.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
I think for me, the lesson is, like you can
tell any individual story that's true and that's true to you.
Like if that's so, I think that's a defense you
can still use, and it can be as specific and
it can I think what was fun about section in
the day at the time is that we could make
these pronouncements that felt real and like in the Zeitgeisten
(39:53):
did start conversations and we're fun, but they were kind
of generalizing about men or women or gay you know.
So at the time it seem hilarious that we were
capturing something that seemed true. But I think maybe because
it was trying to be generalizing that made it like
when you look back, maybe we were.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
I also think at the time, I believe that we
were all going around talking about metrosexual and they were
all writing magazines about metrosexual, which I think if I
don't know if I'm right, but it was basically like
a straight man theoretically who grooms themselves like a gay man?
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Right, and culturally, we thought, yeah, we have culture things
that we thought were gay, right, which not necessarily but
like great style, great culture or references. Right, Yeah, but
we don't.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Ever use the word metrosexual in the episode, which I
thought we did, but we don't. We do we talk
about gay straight men and gay straight gay men or whatever,
which also like I was like, I don't even know
what the heck we're saying, but whatever, it's super interesting, right,
But basically I do ask him have you ever been
with a man? And then he asked me if I've
ever been with a woman? And I don't answer, which
I find weird also, right, and then this is where
(41:01):
I thought was also interesting because I couldn't remember the details.
I just knew it was like a questionable storyline, right,
But it's also Dan Futterman, So yeah, we love it.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
I love it still, Like I stand by it. I
just think like some of those things don't diet an
age as well. But I still love the storyline and
like you trying to make sense of like.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
What is happening? Yeah, yeah, And then at the end
when the mouse is there and he jumps on the
chair and kind of squeals, and then the voiceover says
something to the effect of Charlotte wasn't well enough developed
in her masculine side to be with someone who was
so well developed in their feminine side. Yeah, something like that,
which is a very deep statement. And that's fine to say,
(41:41):
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
No, I think it. I mean, I think it. I
mean I love that whole. As someone who's been confused
myself and married someone who realized he was gay after
being married, I feel uniquely qualified to say that it's
confusing sometimes.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Yes, it is confusing, and.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
You do kind of want some clarity sometimes just because
you need to. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
So I don't do anything wrong with one in clarity.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Yeah, And so I love that in that scene when
when you ask him in bed and he says like,
I'm a pastry chef who lives in Chelsea. If I
were gay, I would be gay totally, like, which was
really smart.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
At that time.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
It's true, like he wouldn't he could.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Wouldn't you just be You'd be doing great? He would be, Yeah,
I mean very busy. Your schedule would be booked and
you're adorable.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
But I also love in this from this scene where
you bring Carrie and Stanford to the place for the
pastries just to decide yes.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
And it must have been like the casting of of Futterman,
because literally everyone at the table likes him. Yeah right,
like every like Willie says, Stanford says will I'm attracted
to him, so he must be straight, which is so funny.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
And all the good ones are straight, even the gay ones.
It was really, really, God Willy, I know.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
It was.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
That's a fun one to rewatch though, of him. So fun.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
All right, you guys, it is too much fun to
have Cindy Schuback here. So we are going to come
back for part two later in the week. Please join
us on Are You a Charlotte
Host
Kristin Davis
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