David Mamet on Great Writing, Bad Acting, His New Film & Hollywood’s Collapse

Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright, screenwriter, and director David Mamet joins Raymond Arroyo for a no-holds-barred conversation about the state of the arts, storytelling, and America itself.

🎬 David Mamet’s Henry Johnson is available for rental and in theaters on May 9th @ henryjohnsonmovie.com

From Glengarry Glen Ross and The Untouchables to House of Games and his new film Henry Johnson, Mamet reflects on his legendary career — and why so much of today’s creative industry is broken. He explains why modern acting training misses the mark, what makes great writing timeless, and how the rise of bureaucracy and groupthink led to Hollywood’s artistic collapse.

Along the way, Mamet shares wild stories about hanging out with con men, why he never rehearses actors, how improv and Harold Pinter influenced his work, and the surprising truth behind his religious awakening and political shift. Whether he's dismantling method acting or defending Donald Trump, Mamet never backs down from the truth as he sees it.

🔔 Subscribe for more inspiring conversations: Arroyo Grande, available on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, iHeart, and everywhere you listen, watch & stream.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
He is a Politzer Prize winning playwright, screenwriter, and director,
responsible for lines like always be closing, and he sends
one of yours to the hospital, you send one of
his to the Morgue. That's the Chicago Way. Author of
The Untouchables, Glengarry Glen Ross, American Buffalo, and so many others.
David Mammont is here on the place of art in

(00:23):
the country today, the origins of that Mammot Speak and
his new film Henry Johnson. Come on, I am Raymond Arroyo.

(00:43):
Welcome to a Arroyo grande. Go subscribe to the show
now and turn those notifications on so you know what's
coming up. David Mammott is a Politzer Prize winning playwright,
one of the most influential writers in the last three decades.
American Buffalo, House of Games, High, The Verdict, Wagged the
Dog in his new film, Henry Johnson, All David Mammott.

(01:06):
But where did all of this come from? And how
does he see the country? Now? Here's David Mammott. I
want to go back to the beginning. Why did you,
of all people, kid growing up in Chicago, when and
why did you fall in love with the theater? Of
all things.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, you know, they asked the Willie Sutton why you
became a why you robbed banks? And he said, as
you know, he said, that's where the money.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Is, that's where the money at all.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Even better, so that's why I got But I got
involved in the theater for two reasons, as I was
given this wonderful gift to communicate with an audience, which
I discovered only because I wanted to get into the
theater to meet girls.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Another good motive money and girls. So there's always the
two good motivators. But look, you took this very seriously.
You go to the Hood Playhouse, you go to New York,
you study with Sandy Meisner. Sanford Meisner was, for those
who don't know, kind of a great acting guru, one
of the members of the group theater. Did you learn
anything from him?

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yes I did. I studied with Sandy Meisner at one
of my teachers at the Neighborhood Players about sixty years ago,
and I learned three things. One is I was not
born to be an actor. I was always upset and
confused by the labyrinthine preparations that were supposed to go

(02:33):
into doing the scene. So as a terrible actor. And
then I looked at the people doing the scenes. Some
of them were good actors, but they had no idea
what they were doing, because they were all self conscious.
And the reason that they were self conscious was that
they were trying to remember several things that my objective
is this, and if I substitute that for this, I

(02:56):
might understand the objective better, and dah da dah. So
they were all self conscious. So that's the second thing
I understood. The third thing I understood was that mister
Meisner had no idea what he was talking about, because
but he was trying to address the essential problem and
acting of people don't have any talent, which is, how

(03:19):
do I act spontaneously in a situation where the lines
are given to me? Right? So I started writing plays,
And what I realized was he's looking at the wrong thing.
He's looking at the lines. But you don't have to
find meaning in the lines, because the meaning's already in

(03:39):
the lines.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Just say the line.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, you have to simply say the line. The problem is.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
The relaxation stuff, you don't think had any merit. That
whole back and forth thing he used to do, that.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Exercise, That was what was called the repeating game, and
the idea was you say something and I repeated it
until something happens to make a change. The problem was
that that puts the attention back on oneself above ababah
bah blah bob. So I said, there's a simpler way
of doing it. Right, this action which proves my point,
which is the lines of both right. I'm speaking as

(04:10):
a playwright. You don't have to understand Shakespeare in order
to play Shakespeare. You need to save the lines one
after the other and the play will take care of itself. Now,
how do we know this? How Because when people do
summer stock, they don't want to have to rehearsal, and
it's fine. Secondly, everyone's had the experience of going to

(04:33):
the high school production of Lizzie Strata and saying it
was you know what, it was better than it was
on body, which is true. It was better than this
wasn't So what I learned was that mister Meisner and
Lee Strasberg and all of those guys there were people
who had small experience as actors and some experiences as
a director, but they were basically the second rate people,

(04:57):
and they wanted to not leave the theater for two reasons.
One is because they love the theater, and two because
they had a vision. And the vision was, how do
I get someone to act spontaneously in a situation where
the words are known? And the answer is you don't.
You tell them the something You stay the stupid lines, which.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Is basically where you went. You go to Goddard College,
and you basically teach that built according to Bill Macy, anyway,
the character will take care of itself. Just say the
damn line.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yeah, there isn't. The other thing is that there isn't
any character. There's nobody there. If you take a script
and shake it upside down, it's just words. Where did
the character go to school? But a character didn't go
to school?

Speaker 1 (05:41):
But they say you have to build all that biography.
You have to build the backstory before you enter the scene.
As you prepare, you reject that that's nonsense.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
What do you care deeply about it?

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Tell me my family?

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Freedom?

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Okay? So you carry about deeply about your family, deeply
about freedom. So I say to you, this is a
scene about a guy whose family is being threatened by
a neighbor, right, okay, And so what you need to
do is very simply to tell the neighbor. If it
doesn't stop, he's going to be in a lot of trouble.

(06:16):
That's all you need to get a malefactor to stop.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
Go ahead, get the hell out of my house right now.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Okay, what do you have to what do you have
to prepare?

Speaker 1 (06:29):
Well, you do need the background of the family. Yes, No,
you don't have to be alive to those imaginative circumstances
of yours see the people in your scene.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
No, no, of course not. What does it mean to
be alive to the what are you a liberal? What
does that mean to be alive to the imaginative circumstances?

Speaker 1 (06:45):
I'm not. The fact is that maybe I don't live
in that neighborhood or, in the case of the movie
we're going to discuss, I'm not in prison. I've never
been in prison. So how do you put yourself as
an actor in that situation if you've never been there before?

Speaker 2 (06:57):
I say to you, Okay, here's the situation. You're in prison, right,
so your first and you've been wrongly accused and you're
talking to your lawyer, right, so what's your first reaction?

Speaker 1 (07:10):
I need help?

Speaker 2 (07:11):
And I say that to you, what's your first reaction.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
My first reaction is I'm helpless, I'm trapped. I need help.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
Your difference. What you just did was great acting. There's
no difference between the character who is helpless and trapped
and doesn't know how to bug you and you, who
the actor, are helpless and trapped and don't know how
to plays. It's the same thing. I say. So, this
is what I learned from looking at people fail during
the repeating game.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
And did you pick anything up from that experience that
you poured into your own work? And by that I
mean there is a mamm at universe. I think we
can admit to. I think you'd admit to there is
a There is a world that you've created theatrically and
on and in cinema that's different from the chocolate block

(08:01):
world we live in.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Well, yeah, but you know John Singer Sargent was living
in the same world as Paul Clay, but they saw
things a little bit differently. You must allow, Yes, I do.
I do.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
But there's also a musicality to your work, David, Yeah,
there is a musicality to it. Do you beat it out?
Do you say it aloud as you're writing it? Do
you how do you work through that?

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Sure, I say it aloud, and sometimes I would actually
something wasn't right. I'd count the beasts. Because most American speech,
and most good theatrical speech is written in iambic pentameter,
because that's how we speak. That's why Shakespeare is so easy.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
And you write in the same meter largely.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yes, but also the meter just like a line in Shakespeare,
the meter need not be in the mouth of the protagonist.
The line can be broken between.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
Me and you right right, and maintain the meter, yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Because it has to make sense. And most people who
write they write about they have the They try to
write drama by having the protagonists say what either the
writer means or say what the protagonist is trying to get.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
The other things I had not. I was totally unaware
of Catastrophe, which was a project you filmed. Yeah, but
this was not just any project. Yeah, this is Harold
Pinter and John Gilgood in his final performance. Yeah, tell
me first of all about Pinter, because I hear a
lot of Pinter.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
The pigeon. Now there's the third character. So Irish Television
called up and said, well, we're doing all of Beckett's work.
We'd like you to direct one of his works. I said, great,
I'll take Waiting for Dough. They said, goush, you know
that's taken. But there's a something nobody's ever heard of
called Catastrophe. It's an eight minute play, and we'd like
you to direct that, okay. So they gave me that,

(09:49):
and so I called up Harold Pinter as his contemporaries
used to call him Young Harold, and asked him. And
then someone said, what about John Gilgood to play the
other guy? So I said, gosh, okay. So Gilgert showed up,
Sir John. He was really striking. I think he was
nineteen nineteen change, and he was very tall. He was
like six'. One he's very, elegant and he was dressed.

(10:11):
Up his street clothes were In edwardian get up with
a wing collar and so, forth and he was just.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Wonderful Why Harold, pinder why did you call him? Up
and did he influence Your he must have influenced, your.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
Well of course he. Did as a, KID i worked
In chicago at something called The Second city and had
just been. FOUNDED i had been found there a couple
of years, before AND i worked there BECAUSE i knew
the young girl friend of mine whose father owned. IT
i worked there as a bus, boy and so as a,
BUSBOY i got to go and watch the show three

(10:48):
times a. Night he was better than going to. School
and THEN i was very influenced by the fact that
what they were doing was tragito comedio, sketches, Right and
THEN i Read PINTER'S A Night out And Review, sketches
AND i, said wait a, Second pinter is doing exactly

(11:08):
the same thing these guys are, doing. Right he, is
IF i may use the word, ineffable he is doing the,
ineffable ineffability of human. Existence how can you look at
listen to three lines Of pinter and all of a
sudden you're in that neighbor that neighborhood of dread and
blah blah and da da. Da BUT i did, say

(11:30):
you know, WHAT i bet YOU i can do. That
SO i started writing these. Sketches and that's SO i
started writing writing.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
Drama that's where it. Began, yeah tell me about that.
NEIGHBOR i mean you talked About Second. City, yeah you
would later found your own little theater. Troupe that's, right
and others were founding their own there as. Well but
this really became the turning point In american.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
Theater those, People, yeah it was the turning. Point. Yeah,
Well Milton friedman said something really. Great he, said the
culture and the society has to allow those with talent
to reveal. THEMSELVES i, thought, man that's, brilliant, Right.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
But how does that?

Speaker 2 (12:17):
Happen, well it happened In chicago because they relaxed the building.
Codes and the building codes to build a theater In
chicago were prohibitive because of The Iroquois theater burnt out
in nineteen oh. Six everybody, died so we had these
impossible building. Codes you couldn't build a, theater and even
by bribing the fire, department which was unheard. Of so,

(12:39):
anyway the building codes were relaxed and a lot of
us were interested in theater who dropped out of college
or completed. College and there were these given up. Neighborhoods
most of them are On Halsted. Street at the end
Of Halsted street In, chicago which was a lot of
it was given up car barns because there is this
longest street in the, city only some, long and they had,

(13:01):
streetcars and the street cars went, away but these car barns,
remained and so a lot of us moved into, them
were into, storefronts and we put on place for. Nothing
we all had day jobs and there wasn't any money,
involved none at. All we were working to put the

(13:21):
thing on and it was a lot of. Fun and
the people started coming and, Say jesu's pretty. Good and
then a guy Called Richard, christiansen who was then the
critic for The Chicago Daily news and then for The,
tribune he came. Down he came and he, said this
is the best theater it happening in any place in the.
Country and then people From New york started coming. In, no, no,

(13:43):
No we all said we don't want your stinking, money and.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
Not for too. Long you didn't say, That. DAVID i
just Interviewed Gary sinisee not long ago and we talked
about the founding Of. Steppenwolf that's really connected to Your
Saint Nicholas.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
Theater, well, Yeah Laurie metcalf was original, member worked for
us licking envelopes and she was. Great and then she
And gary And john took over our. Space we left
that space in the car barn in nineteen seventy something like,
that and they took the space over.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
What was it about that group of people and that
time that allowed that freedom the talent to, emerge As friedman, said.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
Well AS i, say it was the fact that the
building calls were relaxed and these neighborhoods were in.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
Transition so regulation touches the arts in that, way even that.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
World the other thing is that there shouldn't be you,
know they say that The Kennedy center for the, okay
but basically government aid for the arts is it's not
just money, wasted it's. Delarious it's the government shouldn't be
involved in the. Arts why, Not, well because someone's going to.
Be the problem with government also always is somebody has
a good, idea but someone else has to implement, it

(15:00):
so that person is either a, bureaucrat a, fool or a.
Thief once in a, while is that person going to be? Knowledgeable? Wise,
certainly but that while hasn't happened.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yet i'm going to hop scotch around a little. Bit
The house Of games. Emerges this is the first time
you direct a film there that kind of set That
that had to it for me. Anyway it sets the
standard not only for, dialogue incredibly a deep look into

(15:34):
the soul and heart of con men on multiple. Levels
did that change you in any way or set the
bar for? You that cast of characters is the cast
you would continue working, with really for the rest of your.
Career AND i guess you started with these same.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
People, Yeah WELL i knew a lot of con, men
a lot of thieves because WHEN i was coming. Up
BUT i got out of, college you couldn't. WORK i
took all sorts of menial jobs and worked a lot
of guys who were on the. Edge AND i worked
in a couple of boiler, rooms phone, rooms which were.
Fraudulent they were selling land that didn't quite. Exist and

(16:10):
THEN i started playing a poker game every day when
a lot of people who were, thieves and so we played.
Poker then they go out and they rob at. KNIGHT
i so love being around.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Them why why are you drawn to those convent? Sisters?

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Well why is? ANYBODY i, mean everybody's drawn to. Convents
some of us are drawn as. Victims why did some
of us drawn as convent and some of us are
drawn as? Observers but you're just LIKE i wasn't you?
Know Like polonius says To Aphelure, love his affections do
not that weight. END i wasn't born to be a,
convent BUT i just loved being around them because they
Were they spoke so, beautifully they spoke so, poetically AND i, said,

(16:53):
JEEZ i LOVE i love. THIS i want to write about.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
It so it's like. Magic it's LIKE i, mean it's,
illusion it's. MAGIC i was working.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
At that point with the Great Ricky, jay who was
rest In. Peace it was the greatest performer of the twentieth.
Century there's a, magician an expert in the confidence game
and consultant and incredible.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
To watch and, see and he's in many of your.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Films so, yeah AND i just finished another Film i'm
going to shoot about these con men who find a
mark and they're going to sell. Him The Lost joshua
was speedletter that proves beyond the doubt That Abraham lincoln
was gay.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
Exactly love you love these grandiose, schemes these Cons, yeah
the mark and really the tradeoff that people make in
manipulation and being part of that. GAME i mean that
really runs through all of your.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
Work, YEAH i love. IT i love it a lot
because you, know you get older and older and you,
say what is there in life that's actually on the.
Level what is there the two things that money can't?
Buy they used to Say, vermont true love and homegrown. Tomatoes.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Cutee tell me about you mentioned that you were part
of your worked in a boiler. Room you were calling the,
order you, know trying to sell real estate that didn't. Exist,
that no doubt Informed Glengarry.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Gal sure.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
Did what did you see there that translated into all
of it this master.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Work. See the other thing IS i wasn't brought up
to be a, salesman OR i, didn't you, KNOW i
didn't raise my boy to be a, soldier wasn't brought
up to be a. SALESMAN i always felt very bad
because they had some guys. There they, were you, know
they were dope fiends and they were drug addicts and
they were crooksing like, that but they could. Sell they
could sell shoes to an, octopus AND i JUST i
couldn't do. It so my job on the first phone

(18:53):
was working on the phone qualifying. Subjects i'd, say oh,
yeah Mister, royo THINK i sa that you've sent in
this boxtop saying that you're interested In i'd like to
say for the to begin that no salesman will call
my name Is Dirk, factor AND i worked for Web.
Walt our sales manager is going to be to forgive

(19:13):
me About our sales manager is going to be in
town this afternoon for about a half an. Hour and
he asked me to pick up one person to whom
he could present our new. Product and what's the better
time for you for you're that? Man, no it was
just a phone, Guy it's ALL i.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
Did.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Wow and THEN i did cold calling selling carpets For
WALTON W A L T O N C A R
P E T s on the. Phone cold calling means
they give you a phone book say go.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
Crazy did this New broadway mounting of the? Play And Patrick,
mark the, director did he reach out to? You were
you in consultation at all on this production or?

Speaker 2 (19:53):
NOT i think he. Did AND i said some version
Of i'm so glad you're. In didn't the play tell
the guys to just stay the stupid?

Speaker 1 (20:02):
Words they're great, words tell the. Truth it's easier to, remember.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
The easiest thing to.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
Remember it's so many great. LINES i, mean by the,
way you've heard the critique that the house is too.
Big they put this in The Flipping Palace theater On.
Broadway that is an enormous barn of a. House would
you have Put Glen Garry Glenn ross in that?

Speaker 2 (20:26):
HOUSE i would have put In Yankee. Stadium why because
you make more? Money you know you. CAN'T i don't.
KNOW i don't know anything about the reviews BECAUSE i
never read. Reviews why, not because they're either if they're,
good they aren't good, enough and if they're, bad they're.
Devastating SO i stopped. Reading the problem is people call

(20:48):
you up and they, say you, Know, DAVE i haven't
talked to you a long. Time you, know you know
what they said about? You and the Des Moines register.
Today who's reading The Dumois? Registered, well the personal call Got,
yeah the guy called.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
You but you don't.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Care, YEAH i don't, care you know The but.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
So you're not married to the idea that a play
has to have a certain. CAPACITY i, Mean Glenn Garry
Glenn ross is Not Hello, dolly it's a it's an
intimate poor did you see? IT i have not seen this.
Production i've seen it, Before SURE i saw.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
IT i see there's this guy Called Adolph apia was
the most famous theatrical DESIGNER i think of the late
nineteen early twenty. Century he, said this set doesn't make any.
Difference he, said the only thing that's important is the
relationship between the stage and of the, house which The greeks, knew,
right they knew about, that and they know About. Domates

(21:40):
was the Little Greek greek grape believes those are the two.
Things and there's nothing wrong with. That that's. GOOD i,
mean the thing transfers over the. Footlights that's that's what
it's got to. Do the problem, is if you've got
a death, house that's to say it's just badly. Designed

(22:02):
but if you got a good, design you don't need a. Set,
listen it's possible to do a set which is better
than a bear, stage but it's, very very.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Difficult how do you do?

Speaker 2 (22:12):
That you need a great set.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
Designer, YEAH i want TO i told You I'm hopscotch
AND i want to talk about the untouchables because you
said you hung out with thieves and con men and
how much of that? INFORMED i, mean, again the lines
come flooding. Back it's The chicago. Way you Knew chicago really,
well and that side Of. CHICAGO i know you've sort

(22:35):
of disregarded history when you dove. IN i, mean you
took the general, outline but you really crafted that hotel
in your own. Making.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Well chicago was the model for the democratic machine which
persisted in this country until Last, november which is the
ultimate machine. Town and everybody knew. It you wanted to
open the, store you had to kick back the blah.
Blah it was a cab, driver you had to buy

(23:05):
buy off the. Cops you wanted to get the. Houses
yet the question was what are you going to do
For Dela hanty after What Dela hanty has done for.
You everybody accepted it as a matter of. Course, okay
that's the way it, works. Right and PEOPLE i knew
in my grandparents generation knew Al capone and they, said you,
know he was this great guy and he was friendly

(23:25):
to this and friendly that Are. OKAY i went to
a high school In chicago which was across the street
from the garage where they held the Same valentin's, massacre
and they said at that high school that was part
of the mythoss that people had heard it and come
out and.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
The, Mythos yeah it happened, there didn't.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
It?

Speaker 1 (23:47):
Yeah, wow tell me how persnickety are you about? ACTORS i,
Mean you've said it a couple of times during our.
Conversation say the, lines just say the. Lines how persnickety
are you about saying them exactly is? Written, well let.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
Me let me say. This imagine you're talking To franz List.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
OKAY i THINK i know where this is.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Going, well, YEAH i, say missed the. List you're? Great,
right nobody disputes there CAN i call You? Franz how
persnickety about? About but the guy's playing exactly the notes
that you.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
Wrote WHAT i just told, you it's music and it's iambic. Pentameter.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Listen if they could do it, better they could write
it Like Ethel merman was opening in a play On
brothers is about to go on and as a chorus girl,
saying oh my, god Miss, murman aren't you? Nervous all
the critics are out, There So ethel, says if they
could do it, better they'd be up.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Here and you take the same. Perspective but you do
hold people as a, director you hold them to the.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Line, WELL i don't have to hold them to the
line because BECAUSE i hire a Great i've worked with
great actors and they understand, right why would they want?
TO i, MEAN i. NEVER i. NEVER i never rehearsed
a scene in the movie in my. Life you don't
know WHY i hired the. ACTORS i, say you got any, Questions,

(25:10):
no go do.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
It let's go do. It and that's why you work
with that. TEAM i, mean you do have that team of.
Actors it's almost The David mannett repertory.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Things, well but you you get to meet. PEOPLE i
just did this movie With shilah buff And JOHN. A
kite AND i worked with them. BEFORE i, know, great
go and mix it, up you.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Know tell me About. Spartan Val kilner just, died you
were rest in. Peace tell me about working with him
and how much research did you do on.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Spart, WELL i had a guy who was working with
who'd been In Delta, force and so we talked a
lot about. This we talked a little about that's, very very.
Helpful and other than, THAT i was fascinated by that,
character right of The Delta force, guy The Navy seals.
Guy but beyond, that it's the organizations that we don't,

(26:00):
exist who once in a while have to hire a
guy to go in and kick ass and take. Names
and that's that.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
Guy Was Val. Kilmer one of those actors that you
could just let. Go.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
Oh he was, wonderful and it was so much night,
shooting and so he determined the particular remedy for night.
Shooting so here's the thing about movies when you're directing,
movies to a certain, extent when you're, acting but more
when you're, directing if you aren't sick at the end
of the, movie you're not working hard. Enough so as

(26:35):
you go out nights and nights and, nights you're finally
you're going into the. Tank you're going into the. Tank
you're coming on your, reserves and you start going to the.
Chocolate but then at dawn we're just ben't able to.
Move so he made us a little every. Day we
made us a health drink which is half tomato juice
and half horse radish and half. Vodka and so we

(26:59):
said a round and he would always he was obsessed
with the commerce. Clause he's very, interesting great constitutionalists for,
You and SO i put that. Move we did this
movie with Alcohol Hill. Specter, yeah and he's talking About Lenny.
Bruce he, Says Lenny. Bruce he said they hired. It
they hounded him so. Bad at the end of his.

(27:19):
Life they had him shooting smack and talk about the commerce.
Clause that's how crazy they.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
Had so that's that's a.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
God he's a great. Actor what a great. Actor, yeah
rest in.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
Peace, amazing amazing actor and had interesting things and fun
things to say about. You you could tell there was
an affection.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
There oh here's.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Marvelous tell me About Red. Belt this is a movie
that doesn't get enough, attention AND i bring it up
for this. Reason you have a way of seeing things
far down the line that haven't quite matured. Yet you
may even see them too. EARLY i would Argue David mammott.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
A premature anti fascist.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
On many, fronts but on this front just mma mixed martial.
ARTS i, mean first of, all what drew you to?
This aside From ed O'Neal the, Actor.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
Well i've Known ed. Forever we worked together In chicago
sixty years ago and we were doing a confidence movie
In New york Called The Spanish. Prisoner and he's one
of the con, men and he, Says, DAVE i just
moved out To LA i met these guys they called
The Gracie, brothers are like five foot, six they're weigh
one hundred and forty. Pounds they can beat anybody they ever.

(28:30):
Met the, most you got to meet. Them so a
few years go by And i'm having a lunch at
this joint over, here my lunch every, day and There's,
ed who has lunch every day, here and he, Said,
ed you know you told me about these. Guys he,
said you want to meet? HIM i, say why? Not he, said,
oh they're right, there like thirty feet away was the.
Academy SO i started Studying brazilian jiu jitsu with these.

(28:54):
GUYS i loved. It it WAS i did it for
twenty plus. Years it was the greatest workout in the
world because you use every muscle in your body and
you are aware of. It so, Anyway hicks And, gracie
who was the, great great, Fighter god bless, him and,
unbeatable and he invited me and my teacher i'd, know

(29:17):
down to an event about jiu jitsu because he's trying
to figure out how to put jiu jitsu on, television,
Right and the problem about jiu jitsu is a lot
of times it's it looks kind of. Static and SO
i was looking at this thing With, hicks AND i
was at the control booth with, him and you were
looking at, it looking at, it looking at, it AND i,
said what about if we introduced the element of? Chance he,

(29:43):
said what do you? Mean SO i, said, well what
about if we had people had to take a black
or white thing out and if they did they took
the black ball out of the urn they got you
had to strap one of their armsteair. Side so he
talked about, that talked about it. Later he, said you, know, yeah, no,
No SO i, said, well it's a good. Idea SO
i wrote that. MOVIE i love.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
It you were really an early advocate OF. MMA i,
mean now it's become this, global certainly, national but a global.
Phenomenon now it's.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
Great and you, Know Dana, white when we were shoot
in the, movie he, said, yeah what do you? Need he,
said you need the, pyramid you need. This he was
very very. Helpful. Huh and SO i met so many
interesting people in that, world Including Jean lebel who was
the great champion of judo and the great, stuntman and
it's marvelous.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
People what's the difference between writing for yourself when you're
going to direct a film and writing for somebody? Else
is there a difference when you're?

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Writing, no there's no difference in the. Writing the difference
is in, directing because they're going to think it.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
Out do you feel they've really aft up your work.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
To a certain extent here and there into, well because
look at they have their own. Vision some of the
problem is that nobody reads a. Script so a lot
of people would read my scripts And neil, days they
would pay me pretty good money to write, them but
they wouldn't understand them because they would, SAY i don't
understand what's happening.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
Here, Right what are they? Missing, well, no what.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
They're missing Is i'm writing a script to make them
wonder what happens.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Next, well that's why in your, films the films you,
direct they're like opening. UP i, mean it's really like
opening up a delicious box of you, know it's like
one of Those russian. Dolls you can't keep pulling the heads.
Off but it's totally not what you.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Expected, Underneath, well the two things that needs to be
either scene by scene or at the end is totally
not what you expected and, acceptable, right so. Plausible, yeah
so you look at it and, say, oh NOW i
See oh NOW i get. It, Ah, oh that's of course.
Dog so that in effect that the drama is just

(31:50):
like a, joke, RIGHT i lead your mind to its own.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
Destruction, well you're your own. You and WHEN i Saw
RICKY j and all those, MOVIES i, thought Why RICKY.
J of all the people he could? Feature he's almost
he's like your hitchcock walking through every one of your.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Movies.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Almost he really is an avatar for, you though in
some ways sure he.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Is and the other thing is that performers generally make
simply good actors because they know they're doing it for
the audience rather for. Themselves SO i did. SOME i
had some really great, villains and they worked. With Steve
martin played a villain for me In.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
Spanish Tim allen for.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
Me and you look at some of the great building
are the, comics, right it's A Jackie gleason and The
hustler And Jerry lewis and The king Of comedy and
on and.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
On why is? That why do you think comics and
those who, play particularly people who played before an, audience
why do they make better?

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Villains because you know you need to leave it, alone
leave it, alone tell the. Joke the audience will just
to tell you if it's funny or. NOT i don't
need to do it in a funny. Face oh, yeah.
Yeah if the joke is, funny you don't need to help,
It and if it's not, funny you can't help. Me you.
Can't so that's what comics and performers. Know so the

(33:12):
problem with a lot of young people coming up there
deficit is they've never performed in front of an. Audience
because the audience will teach you right. Now, OOPS i
can't do. That you can't call them in tomorrow and
ask for a better.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
Grade they'll let you know right, then in real. Time
tell me About Henry, johnson because in some ways this
speaks right to what you're talking. About this was a theater.
Project this is a play that you sat in a
very small theater In venice. Initially, yeah where did that come?
From tell me where the idea For Henry johnson came?

Speaker 2 (33:46):
From? First well BEFORE i Forget, yeah most of, them maybe,
most maybe more than, most of all the, wonderful transformative
Things i've done in my professional. LIFE i went to
kicking and. SCREAMING i, said, no that's not, me worth
more than, That, no no one's gonna. Come SO i
went to this kicking and. Screaming there WAS i guess

(34:07):
right at the end OF covid and my Friend Marjora Lewis,
ryan who directed a couple of plays of, mine a
couple of plays of, hers called me up and, said
let's do a. Play SO i, SAID i want to
have a time with the. Theater glob. Grumble so she, said,
no come, on come, on come, on we'll do a.
Play da.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Da so.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
She had got anything in your, drawer SO i, said, well,
YEAH i Got SO i took out this Play Henry
johnson That i'd. Written that's that's What i've done for
about fifty. Years AS i write more or less every,
DAY i write, scenes and some of them become plays
and some. Don't some become movies and.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
You just file them. Away, YEAH i filed them.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Away so, anyway So marjora read. It she, said, okay
we're going to put it on the. STAGE i, said, well, yeah,
Okay well we're going to get the. Money she, said
we'll find the. Money won't cost. Nothing SO i called Up,
shy AND i called Up evan And Dominic kauffman And Chris,
bauer and she put the play on and at the,
End evan And shaya, said we're gonna make a. Movie

(35:14):
let's make a movie of.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
This everything is as it, seems all the cars during
your de because it depends on how you cut him to.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
Sign you know of the, Psychopath, yes that they're irresistibly. Charming,
YES i, mean why does anyone tell secret to get?
When in? Return they came up with a great cinematographer
Sing Wong howe and light, sucking and we planned it.

(35:48):
Out and the fellow who funded his foundation funded the,
play Who's Sheldon Stone? Foundation they, said, yeah you guys
were put in little. Money we'll put it a little.
Money we'll shoot the damn. Movie so we.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Did how long did it take?

Speaker 2 (36:06):
It? Huh how long is a chinaman's?

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Name it's also denotes the distance between beginning and end
of the. Project that's.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
True but as you, know we haven't talked About Anthony charlotte.
Yet TODAY i think it's. Time Anthony charles one of
my favorite. Writers he wrote The Late. Victorian he wrote
forty seven novels while running The british Post. Office and
he got up every day at five point thirty and
wrote twenty five hundred, words and if he finished a

(36:40):
novel on twenty two thousand words he'd write five hundred
words of the. Next and his books are wonderful That
i've read all of them many. Times they're just eminently.
Rereadable they're just. Marvelous and he had this great career
and then his reputation and fell off the cliff And

(37:02):
Arnold bennett it was a little bit late later. Novelists
so wait a, second why is? That and he, said
the reason is that the end of his, Life trollope
wrote a great autobiography which he Called My, Autobiography go
know whatever, name, yeah in which he told about his
working habits and people, said, well wait a, second now

(37:23):
that's his working. HABITS i have to relok at. That
that can't be any. Good. Ah so, uh.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
The, workman the habitual discipline ended up undermining his, reputation
is what you're. Saying and that's why you're not telling
me how long you shot the. Movie you're worried about
the the reputational harm that might about it.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
All it's just it's it's you, know like asking asking
a show how long you work on?

Speaker 1 (37:48):
That, Right and you would, say look at the film
and call me.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
Later, yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
Exactly so tell me About Henry, Johnson tell me about
the conceit of the play and why you were so
fascinated by this.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Idea, WELL i knew a guy and he was. TALKING i,
said he's where you have. Been he's he's going to have.
Lunch he, SAID i got to go up TO i
can a lumpac or something like, that to hatch. Apee
so what are you doing up? There So i'm visiting
my friend from. COLLEGE i, said, oh what's what's what's the?
Info so he, says, well he was having this affair

(38:23):
with the woman and she got pregnant and he wanted
her to abort the child and she said, no and he, said,
Oh i'll pay her to abort the, child and she said.
No so he had a little goodbye fling with, her
during which he induced and abort a fashion into her,
body and she aborted the. Child so he was convicted of,

(38:44):
manslaughter manslaughter and sexual assault and all sorts of correctly of.
THINGS i said. Good he said, no, no. NO i,
said why are you going to visit? Him he, said,
well he's my. FRIEND i said he's your friend and
he did. That, yes he, said well he's going to
get out in a. While don't you think he's paid
his debt to. SOCIETY i, SAID i don't know what

(39:05):
his debt to society, is but whoever it, is it
isn't that young woman whom he. Violated and SO i
started thinking about. THAT i, thought you, know That's Rebecca west,
said all liberal administrations and in bloodshed.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
Not.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
Good so all it was liberal ye ends in. Bloodshed
SO i, thought, well what about this. Guy what else
does he do when his friend gets? Out and the
thing he does is he steals Money Henry johnson to
pay for the guy's, defense right because the guy is
entitled to. Defense and Then Henry johnson ends up in, prison, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
And he meets who. Character and it really is about
If i'm reading this, Correctly and AGAIN i haven't seen.
That i've only read the reviews in the. Description so
but it seems like it's a guy desperate for some
moral guidance and he's looking in all the wrong.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
Places, sure, well the thing is people with Weak there
are a lot of people with weak, egos and in,
fact you see them with face masks on yelling that
to The. Jews and one of the things about a
lot of people with weak egos is you put him
with someone who has a foreign, accent and they start
talking with the foreign accent and they'll, say you, know
it's so funny When i'm around people with a foreign,

(40:27):
ACCENT i just start talking like. That So Henry, johnson
is that on the moral? Level you put him around
people who are? Thieves and you, know we see this
in the in the radical. Left you, know things that
nobody would do on their own when you put them
in a. Group It's katie bar the.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
Door, yeah tell, me you're releasing this, Movie Henry, johnson
and you're releasing it in theaters and on the website. Simultaneously,
yeah why did you make that?

Speaker 2 (40:57):
DECISION i didn't make the. Decision producers made the. Decision
But Steven soderberg, says saying maybe twenty years ago when
he was one of the first guys, this it doesn't
make any sense WHEN i do it all at, Once
SO i guess it makes.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
Sense you like that idea of, democracizing this making available
to everybody wherever they.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Are, YEAH i think everybody has the inalienable right to
buy my.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
Products it's so kind of, you so nice of, You
AND i was. Shocked The La times wrote of this
when the point wait wait wait, wait brace. Yourself, no, no,
no you like this. One The La times, wrote this
play proves That David memmott still has much to teach
us about the dark side of human. Relations labouf is scarily.

(41:43):
Good that's about as good a rave as you're going to.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Get The La.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
Times, yeah, yes.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
You know What Will rogers said about The La. Times right,
now what did he? Say he said he was here
and he got on a, plane and he asked a
train and he has the porter for a. Newspaper but
he thinks porter misheard him because he brought him The La.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
Time but in this, case we're going to PROTECT i
love them, now you love them at least for, now defend.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
It to the. Death they're right to say.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
That that only THAT i get. It you directed this,
movie and in your own directing book you write that
every shot should be. Uninflected, yeah tell people what that.
Means what is an uninflected? Shot and do you still
stand by? That?

Speaker 2 (42:27):
Sure because the way that film works is through the.
Cut it's not in the. Shot it's not to. People
that's how we theater. Works we're in a singer talking
to each. Other this happens. That but the way that
a film works is through a. Cut we're talking to
each other AND i say something to you and you
have that look in your PRESENT i don't know what
you're going to say. Next the audience wants to know

(42:48):
what you're going to say. Next you cut, Right, so
but the shot has to be uninflected when the actor
is helping. IT i really want to know what just you,
know they look Like Jasmine.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
Crockett, now this is the first time we've taken theater
directing And Jasmine crockett and put all of that. Together
Only David mammott could pull that. Off there you, go
you did. It tell Me i've always been. Fascinated you
had a religious, conversion a, deepening a return to your,

(43:19):
faith AND i know you are serious about. It how
did that change the way you approach your writing and
the subjects of that.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
Writing, WELL i don't think it changed. That it changed
the vast amount of everything else in my, life BUT
i don't think it changed The Denis prager said something.
Wonderful he said he doesn't believe in The torah because Of.
God he believes In god because of The. Torah that. Genius,

(43:52):
wow that's HOW i feel.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
You believe In god because of The.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
TORAH i believe In god, anyway BECAUSE i MEAN i
look around and As John kennedy would, say the only
thing not made In china is the.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
World, yeah that's.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
Right does he work that stuff up at? Night you?

Speaker 1 (44:10):
Know, well we're both From, Louisiana kennedy AND. I he's my.
Senator so if there is something in the, water you,
know you know those Those louisiana, writers they do have
that kind of that, gift and boy does he have.
It But i'm sure he works it. Out those lines
are too you, see you talk about.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
UNINFLECTED i couldn't throw all that. Stuff he throws it,
away it.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Does he's he is.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Funny But i'm learning to Speak. Louisiana how are you doing?
That BECAUSE i. HAVE i just came to my, audiologists
a great guy from Now, orleans, right and SO i,
say hi, There, bubba how are you? Today and so he, Says,
Okay i'm gonna give you a. Listen, okay try it
down on. You you? Ready, okay how's your mom and?

Speaker 1 (44:52):
Them how's your mom and? Them oh that's, good, great
that's very.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Good thank. You but you know that cost to mind something.
Else when those fing idiot fools were in The White
house and they tried to denature everything moral and good
and kind about The United, states they said that the
military shouldn't use the phrase you. Guys you guys remember?
That AND i thought about. THAT i, thought wait a.
SECOND i always admired You southerners from so many, things

(45:21):
but among them is. Y'all, YEAH i, said we don't have.
Y'ALL i, said, yes we. Do you guys means. Y'all
it has nothing to do with. Sexuality it's so. Inclusive
it's The northern.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
Y'all, yeah that's really what it. IS i love the,
musicality the same musicality that you've brought and. EXTRACTED i
would argue From. Chicago that's the musicality that you still
feel running through whether It's Anne, rice or it's or
It's Senator. Kennedy there's a musicality and we. Have, yeah

(45:53):
and it's. Unique it's its own. Thing you brought up.
Politics let's talk about it for a. Second do you
feel culturally the political divisions are settling because and in
wake up The trump victory or, no you feel it's
more amplify.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
BOTH i got a friend of mine who is a
wonderful guy and it lives on the corner for me
and talk a little bit about and he's married to
this wonderful woman for years and years and years and
he lost his, house uh in the Fireus AND i
was talking to, him LIKE i ran into. HIM i,

(46:31):
said the terrible Is he, said it's even worse than.
That he, SAID i don't know IF i can stay married.
ANYMORE i, mean my wife went back and she's going
through the ashes picking up. THIS i, said why are
this reporting about? This we're fighting about? That da, DA
i just you know. That AND i, said, baby you're

(46:53):
this is called post traumatic stress. SYNDROME i, said you
are soft. Up you and your wife is you have
no idea what's going. On you're going to take a
deep breath because everything is cognitive, dissonance. Everything and SO
i really understood post traumatic stress syndrome for the first

(47:17):
time in my. Life and then the people who have
kids on the autistic spectrum all get. Divorced AND i
went to a meeting and the fellow explained. Why he,

(47:37):
said because it's so, difficult but the two parents who
love their kid more than anything in the world are
having different, experiences and he, said it's It's Elizabeth Koobler
ross's cycle of, grief, denial. Acceptance bargaining, said the two

(48:01):
people are cycling at different, rates so that when always
out of. Sync so you, say how can you say
this always out of? Sync that's cognitive. Dissonance so the
left is The Democratic, party of, course doesn't exist. Anymore
so the question is to what extent is The american
populace the liberals going to. Reform and what happened to

(48:28):
The jews after they Left egypt was cognitive. Dissonance they
were all so screwed. Up they wanted to go, back
and then they wanted to Kill, moses and then they
wanted to worship The Golden, calf and then they et,
cetera c. C so that After moses shows, up the

(48:48):
entire Five books Of moses is about dealing with the
only problem That moses ever, had which was The. Jews,
right because they're undergoing cognitive, Dissonance so what's the. Answer
in The, torah they had to die, Out the generation
of the desert had to die. Out and so what
we're seeing now is the generation of the desert is dying,

(49:09):
out and you see it on the right in The
rise of The people like. Jd vance, right and you
see it on the left that people are going to
have to, say the younger people are going to have to,
SAY i don't get. It it doesn't make any sense what's.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Happened and so you're saying The woodstock generation is on
its way. Out and that's what we saw in these marches.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
RECENTLY i, mean if you look at those people those, marches,
right they're all brain you, know brain dead seventy year old,
gray asexual. Liberals, right they can't reform themselves because to
do so would be to repudiate everything that they think
they stand.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
For, you as a, dramatist as a, writer as an
observer of, culture how do you see this arc Of Donald?
Trump how would you dramatize it or show it be
dramatized by the, Way, well.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
No you KNOW i saw this movie was somebody Dramatized Donald.
Trump he's dramatic. Enough you, know you don't want to
gild the, lily, right nor melt refined. Goals you, know
as it says in The Good, book it's just you
look at him and you, think what it's.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
Magnificent it's an. Amazing it's a, Spectacle. David we were
destroying just ReSpectacle.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
That these people. Exist and you, know the hit. Theatre
herzel was the founder of The Jewish. State went to
the trial Of, dreyfus who was wrongly accused of treason
in eighteen ninety, five and he was being degraded By
he was a member of The french, military and the
people weren't screaming death to The, trader they were screaming
death to The. Jews So herzel was a very very

(50:50):
Successful viennese dramatist left and he, said let me think about.
This we need to have our own countrary, Right and
fifty years later they. Did out of nowhere And Donald
trump out of. Nowhere but it's The american. Myth it's
Mister smith goes To. Washington it's mister regular guy who

(51:11):
finally gets in the office and, says The emperor has no.
Clothes it's The american myth except for.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
Him and it's played in such A i, mean it's
a dramatic. Scale we've never seen anything like, this no,
ONE i, mean the political just the political, Comeback, dave
have you ever seen a historical precedent for?

Speaker 2 (51:30):
It there isn't. One the closest THAT i can get
is if you read contemporary accounts Of George, washington where
everybody says we came into a room and people were
just were, odd and he was quiet and and soft.
Spoken they just, said, yes, Okay i'll give my life to.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
You and you think we're seeing a new iteration of.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
THAT i know we. Are it's the Second American revolution
that none of us ever thought was.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
POSSIBLE i know you're concerned about the state Of america
as a, culture we as a. People you keep returning
to this, theme how the arts and the, manners the
way we live our, lives how all of that is
really contributing to who we are and our. Future it's

(52:21):
very concerning to, you though, PERSONALLY.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
I always thought it was going to end up as
a derelict BECAUSE i knew many. Skills they DISCOVERED i
knew how to, write and THEN i DISCOVERED i lived
in a country where IF i worked at, it was
good at, it and got lucky and, PERSEVERED i could
actually make a. Living i'm crazy about this. Country my

(52:45):
grandparents came here with, nothing and my, grandmother who raised
my dad as a single mom during The, depression who
didn't speak very Good, english sent him To Northwestern University Law,
school where he graduated first in his. CLASS i loved this,
country AND i think that we. ALL i wrote a

(53:06):
play about it Called, november he, said when we get
around to the water, cooler we all kind of liked
the same. Things we had to evacuate my house because
of the, fires and we ended up in a, hotel
two of us with our two. Dogs everyone else a
mother and, father, kids blah blah. Blah scramped up together

(53:27):
in the mainly liberal, community even gone along like, wildfire
and a lot of those people suffered tremendous, losses and
we our house was, spared thank. God everyone was filled
with compassion for their neighbors and concerned for their, neighbors
and the desire to be polite because we were all.

(53:48):
Together and that's that's What trump is. Saying that's the
state Of. America, Dudes we're all in it. Together let's
take let's scrape the scum off the top thing they call,
them the, politicians and, take As Milton friedman, said let's
take it back to the kitchen. Table. Right what does it?
Cost where DO i get out of? It when DO i, reevaluate.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
And that's when we're, healthiest when it's about people and
when they're in charge of their. Destiny of, course, yeah
you mentioned In, november which is a great.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Play.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
OH i wrote a book about the origin of that turkey,
pardon which Was Tad. Lincoln you know it Was lincoln's.
SON i do know that it Was Tad lincoln who
they brought The christmas turkey to the house and his
Brother willie had, died so he befriended this. Turkey he
taught it, tricks he trained it. Well christmas came, around

(54:38):
they pick up the turkey to go kill it for
the for the. Feast he's broken. Down he grabs his.
Turkey he runs up the stairs and as he saw
his father pardon all of the men who were in
the field and battle during The Civil, war he goes and, Says,
daddy pardon my turkey At, lease pardon, it which he,
does which is the beautiful origin story of the turkey

(54:59):
part WHICH i know you didn't tell that, tale but
you did tell a. President it is about a, president
part in a couple of, turkeys and really about the
whole and a meditation on where we are as a.
Country that play was not warmly received by the critics
because you had already done Your i'm a reformed. Liberal,
no it is the other, manifesto or you were about.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
To, NO i wrote, it AND i did that. Play
The New York. Times writer from a newspaper asked me
to write about the. Play SO i, said, well it's
really about political. Civility AND i, said my understanding of
political civility IS i tell you WHAT i, believe and
you tell me what you, believe and we find and,
say wait a, second, okay, GOOD i get. That NOW

(55:44):
i have to say your position such that you say that's,
right and you have to say my position such that's.
Right now we proceed to the. Facts we, say what
can we agree on? This? No throw it? Out, this,
no throw it out, this, Yes so then we proceed
with the thing upon which we agree and we proceed from.
Here that's political. Civility SO i wrote this. Article it

(56:06):
was it Was The Village. VOICE i, Said i'm not
even politically civil to myself or my whole. LIFE i
referred to myself as a brain dead. Liberal Next, Thursday
british the whole front page Of The Village. Voice why,
MAMMAS i am WHY i am no longer a brain
dead liberal boom hi By.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Wow, yeah the other way.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Around NOW npr lost my number At New York times
that he everyready lost my, number SO i, said, Okay
so it caused a moment of it was kind of.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Accidental then it was completely. Accidental, wow you, KNOW i
guess that's not HOW i remember. It and even WHEN
i read, IT i, thought, oh this, happened and then
everything else. Proceeded it was really a reflection on a
play and at the heart of the, play.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
And the whole heart of the play that raised on
her as the woman who's the speech. Writer she, says you,
know we say we're a country, divided but We're american.
Citizens we laugh at the same jokes where we make the,
quota we whap each other on the, back And i'm
not at all sure that we don't love each. Other

(57:21):
so that WHAT i thought was my love letter To. America.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
America last time we, talked we talked about your memoir
everywhere in Oink, oink and it was kind of a, takedown,
scolding hilarious analysis Of hollywood and how it got, here
really the whole. Culture where Is hollywood? Now well in your.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
Estimation it's. Over there's several. Reasons it's just it's run its.
Course that the movie industry after it came to, fruition you,
know as my son, say, frutician it's they owned the.
Theaters they had to divest from, them AND i think
fifty eight or something like, that they had a completely
vertically integrated. Everything they bought up the, product that made the,

(58:04):
product they distributed the. Product they you, know they it
was a cash. Business there's a lot of, theft but
they don't own the theaters. Anymore and there's no reason
for the. Infrastructure you, know within ten miles of, it
there's forty thousand people involved doing. Nothing yeah. Zero you

(58:25):
look at all these influences on, whatever TikTok and.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
The Big dog on, YouTube and, yeah it's the.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Present the other thing, is not only don't you need
a lot of technology, Here you don't need a lot
of infrastructure out there because you could do WITH. Cgi
you don't have to and you don't have to be
so finicky because it's all going to be seen on
a small. Screen so it's not forty by thirty feet,
anymore you, know it's three by four.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
Inches it's changed everything, yeah what do you make of
the Snow White temacal Where disney went? Pillaging they're great
nineteen thirty eight. Class it's a, cartoon which it's such
A i rewatched it. Recently it's such a beautiful. Piece
why would you ever try to remake? That or we're

(59:11):
a live action version of?

Speaker 2 (59:12):
It? Huh well why did they Have World war two
And World war? One worked out so?

Speaker 1 (59:18):
Well because they could exactly? So and as we said
at the, start because that's where the money.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
Is, well that's where the money.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
IS i.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
Mean, also you, Know Peter dinklin's a great. Actor he's
a little person who's were second.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Exactly what about?

Speaker 2 (59:35):
Us are you kidding?

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Me but they seriously changed the. Storyline they broke the
story and the chain of the story that people. Loved
when you do, THAT i, mean, yes the actress was
also doing her own political sideshow and protest, movement but
aside from, her the thing itself is. Corrupted it's not Snow,
white it's not The Grimm's brother or Even disney's of

(01:00:00):
The Grim's brother's tail any. Longer that's what happened, There
that's Where that's WHY i think it really.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Believed disney BECAUSE i saw A. Fantasias you ever See
fantasia have hippos?

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Dancing that's come.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
ON i, mean, yes they could have. Stood but.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
He did have a striking vision and he did remake
The american imagination in many. Ways and people come to expect.
Something if IF i Say i'm giving You david mamm
It's Glengarry Glen ross and we, have you, know six
drag queens at a, brunch something's off. Here and IF
i start pulling your storyline out and suddenly it's not

(01:00:44):
about real, estate it's about selling. Dresses we're in different. Territory.
Now that's essentially what they did with, this keeping the
veneer of the, exterior but. Mangling, see these are all corporate.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
Decisions none of those people who made those the, decisions
they all thought they were going to be held if,
responsible all communally. Responsible and they've never they never spent
time sitting in a theater watching how people. Reacted the
other thing that the reason there is the death Of
hollywood is that it's no longer important to see how

(01:01:17):
people react to the certain extent because you're selling in a,
subscription so you want this big thing over here by
all of this trash over.

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
Here oh that's a you, KNOW i hadn't thought of.
That that's the dark side of the subscription. Thing you
really don't have to be attentive to the audience. Anymore,
yeah you just keep. Peddling they're going to swallow whatever
you give.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
Them that's WHY i like the new especially fonts. News it's, funny.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
So you come to be entertained about breaking news and Current.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Yeah the other thing, is you, know you look at
these other legacy guys with this door look on their
face all the.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Time why it's a bad. RIDE i always say it's
a bad. Ride you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Know, listen IF i want to put a paper bag
off over my head and, SUFFOCATE i can do that
without the help of.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
News, okay there's a series of QUESTIONS i ask everybody who's. Here, oh,
okay you're. Ready this is The Royal grande. Questionnaire who
is the person you most? Admired david the PERSON i
most admired?

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Today, Yeah, oh that's a very very good. Questions Donald? Trump?

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Wow? Why probably because of what we discussed a little, earlier.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
Because he looked at something that was, impossible which was
the resurrection Of forgive. Me i'm going to say it
The american dream and, said, okay what we need to
have to? Happen and he was treated worse than Any
american citizen in, history and nothing faced. Him and SOMETHING

(01:02:48):
i heard something When malania said that he came down
the before he ran in twenty, four she, said, oh
you're going to run? Again he said, yes and she
SAID i hope you. Don't and he said why and she,
said because you'll. Win.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Great who is the person you most? Despise?

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
WELL i despise a lot of, people but WHEN i,
DO i try to remember THAT i should probably despise myself,
first because the REASON i find their behavior despicable is
because the, potential if not the, actuality is in myself.
Right so, yes it's, jushure.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
But spoken like a. PLAYWRIGHT i like that you're empathizing with.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Them the apparently he wrote a Book Chuck schumer called
Anti semitism In. America he, did AND i, thought how dare?
He but somebody who's died The israel and this the
prime minister and withheld The. Israel and now he writes
a book Called antisemitism In. America BUT i read the
subtitle says a quick start guide.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
It's just a quick. Start, well you got to start, Somewhere,
david that's. Right what's the greatest feature and best feature in?

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Humanity AM i feature? Film no?

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
Feature like feature like the feature you, have the thing you.
Possess what is your best feature or the best in?

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
HUMANITY i Think i'm very understanding and forgiving to all
the swinder who don't understand my, work.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
And you write great books about. Them most, importantly your
memoirs are worth the worth the. Trip what's your favorite Neil.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Oh that's a very good. Question. Oh my wife makes
this wonderful sardine, pasta sardines and. Breadcrumbs it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Good. Wow, Yeah i've never had. That, yeah it's the
only sardines and bread.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
Crumbs, yeah she's been cooking out of A sicilian.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
Cookbook your favorite book and the last book you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
Read my favorite, Book. GAULLIA i don't, know you. KNOW
i read the works In ENGLISH A Vasally grossman last,
year who was she is the greatest writer of the
twentieth centuries Of Russian and he, was among other, things
the reporter For Red, star which was their stars and,

(01:05:16):
stripes and he was at the front all Through. Stalingrad
he was at the liberation of whichever camp they. LIBERATED
i think it was burkean Out.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
And why didn't you want to dive into his complete?

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Works, well BECAUSE i read one THAT i read them.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
All, oh you couldn't. Stop, yeah you binge read?

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
Them?

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
Yeah was that the last book you?

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
Read? Last? No, no, No What i've been reading? Lately
what have been reading? Lately? Oh i've been reading the
works Of Ross thomas, lately who was An american crime.
Writer he wrote forty. Books they're a lot of. Fun
and he also said something one of the best THINGS
i ever. Heard he was an alcoholic and he was
At Dan tanis or something With ross. MacDonald it was

(01:05:56):
another big, drinker the red middle of the day and
they sit down in the red booths and the water
comes over and, says what CAN i get, you, gentlemen
And Ross thomas says a couple of double, Martinis and
the waiter, Says oliver, twist And Ross thomas, says we'll order.
Later isn't it? Great it's?

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
GREAT i love. It tell, me what do you, Fear
david Mammontt you know WHAT i?

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
THINK i THINK i fear this. GRACE i fear, doings
and that's what a lot of my, reading especially about The,
victorians and a lot of my writing is about guys
who make one false. Move how close we are To
that's what film wair is most mainly about how close we,
are just stepping off the sidewalking over.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Right over the ooops? Right what do you know that
no one else?

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Knows Preston sturgis was the great comedic. Directors movies is just.
Brilliant don't even want to watch, them want to eat.
Them and he wrote a wonderful movie Called hail The Conquering,
hero where This Eddie bracken is dismissed from The Marine

(01:07:13):
corps because he has allergies and he still wants to
be in The Marine corps and he's going, home but
he can't tell them he's been. Dismissed and so these
marines show up and they, say come, on we'll put
you in a marine. Uniform you'll get off the thing
and everything will be. Fine when he goes, there there
are these two. Bands one of them is Playing hail
The Conquering, hero and one of them is playing the
Star Spangled Banner american The. Beautiful and THEN i was

(01:07:34):
reading a book By Mary Elizabeth braden who will tell
you about a second who describes that same scene written
about eighteen eighty. FIVE a hero gets off and these
two bands when playing. Hale so OBVIOUSLY i know That
Preston sturgis read that, point read that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
BOOK i, Know but what's The but the question, was
what do you know that no one else?

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
KNOWS i. Know That's, Oh i'll tell you another.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
One, okay give me another.

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
One this gets a little bit. Arcane there was in
reading about The First World, war but flyers in The
First World, war there was a ditty they, said he
died with his hand on the, throttle and this is
the reason he. Died he. Forgot he forgot to recall
that iota is the maximum angle of. Glide, right sort

(01:08:23):
of question is what does that? Mean So i'm trying to,
think what does it mean? Iota what does iota? Mean
what does it mean by?

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
What? So?

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
Uh and iota is always written in, caps AND i
think it doesn't mean what is the maximum angle of?
Glide there's no such, thing but there's such a thing
called the angle of maximum. Glide so what's the angle
of maximum glide on an? Airplane? Right it's indicated by the.
Airspeed every airplane has a maximum. Angle you're going to

(01:08:57):
get the maximum glide on this air speed because if
you if the because the increase the air speed by
putting the nose, down going to increase the air. Speed
but smash yeah, Wow so and you can and you
can put the nose up and you'll be up, longer
but you're going to smash. Too SO i started looking
on pictures of old, airplanes AND i, thought how would

(01:09:20):
you find the angle of maximum? Glide what would ioda?
Mean what will be indicated on the air? Speed SO
i look on the airs and there and it. Is it's.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
Indicated, yeah so he forgot.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
The recall that indicated on the air speed is the maximum.
Gangle SO i figured that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
OUT i love.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
THAT i Love that's what's it good? FOR i always,
thought you, know if it's not good for, anything oll remember.

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
You remember it and you'll use it in a screenplay or. Play,
well WHICH i will be staying tuned. For what is
the greatest?

Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
VIRTUE i think it's, courage don't you?

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
Honestly uh?

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
Huh? Truthfulness well the other thing is but, yeah a
lot of times you need you, know perhaps it's the preliminary.
Virtue if you don't, encourage what good is?

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
Honesty, yeah that, is that's very. True but if you
could live anywhere and you weren't, here where would you?

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
Be why WOULD i want to live anywhere but.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
HERE i don't blame. YOU i like it here. Myself
as a matter of, fact.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
We live around. Here my wife likes it. HERE i
always try to get her out Of Southern. CALIFORNIA i
live here BECAUSE i want to be close to my.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
Taxes well you can you can see them being used
in such fascinating ways all around.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Here wanted TO i wanted to get A t shirt
made and wear it today which said save water Support Karen.
BASS i should have done.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
That next, time we'll do. That we'll do that the next.
One what's your biggest? Regret do you have?

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
One? Well most of my? Regrets, yeah, yeah. YEAH i
did a lot of stuff in my life THAT i.
Regret and at some point you got to say that
That god, says you, KNOW i, know you, know but
they say prayer and study and good works moderate the
severity of the. Decree so there's a lot of stuff

(01:11:10):
THAT i, regret and THEN i have a lot of
real estate. Regrets of, course who.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
Doesn't, yeah, well Especially, californians they always have those. Regrets
what's the best piece of advice you ever, received either
professionally or. Personally, oh you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:28):
KNOW i wrote these series of sketches and they did
In chicago and a little forty seed theater With Billy
macy AND. J. J. Johnston it was Called American. Buffalo
it's a. Seri and then we did it In New
york at The oh that little, Thing, no it's before
it was On, beltway something called The showcase code for a.
Moment Actors equity forgot that they're, insane and so they, said,

(01:11:53):
well anybody can do it in one hundred seed theater
ninety Nine Seed. Theater anybody can do twelve performances if
everyone's working for. Nothing so we did this play in
this little ath performance is a little one hundred seat
theater Off. BROADWAY i thought it was pretty good And Ulu,
grossbard who was a, director a very good, director came

(01:12:14):
up to me and, said if you figure out the,
Plot i'll put you On. Broadway and so he.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
Did that's how it. Happened if you can figure out
the plot that can apply to a ton of, Things.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
David, sure if.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
You can figure out the, Plot i'll put your own.
BROADWAY i will remember. That oh good. Lie if you
weren't doing what you're, doing if you weren't, writing if
you weren't, directing if you weren't telling, stories what would
you be?

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
Doing? WELL i don't. Know AND i flew airplanes for
a number of years AND i aged out of, it
AND i loved every minute of. It HAD i started
ten twenty thirty years, EARLIER i would have liked to
have been a. PILOT i am a. Pilot but what
WOULD i be doing?

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
Now, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
That's a very good, question AND i THINK i spend
most of my days thinking about. It i'm in the
midst of various projects right. Now i've got a couple
of books coming, out And i'm doing a lot of
cartooning For Barry weiss at The Free. PRESS i do
a cartoon every.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
WEEK i see. Them what happens when this is? Over?

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
David when what is?

Speaker 1 (01:13:23):
Over when it's all?

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
Over, well it's never all over when it's over for,
us or you mean when we?

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
Die, yeah what happens when it's?

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
Over? WELL i said to my, WIFE i just hope
one thing for you to you don't marry a.

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):
Lawyer is that what you think is going to?

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
HAPPEN i, said if if you thinking about, IT i
want you to bury me on a rotisserie SO i
can roll over in the grave all the.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
Time David, mammoth it's always a. PLEASURE i always love
being with. You IT'S i feel full WHEN i finished
talking to. You and it's like WHEN i read one
of your plays or watch one of your, films you
just feel reinvigorated. AGAIN i think that's the whole, purpose right,
WELL i and all.

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
Of my people love watching you And laura play it the.

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
Dozens we're laughing through the, Pain, David we're laughing through the.
Pain thank, you thank. You here's the. Hole if you
find the, plot they'll bring it To. Broadway don't just
go through the. Motions organize what you are. Doing find the,
reason find the. Purpose AND i Love David mammott's writing.
Advice he writes every, day and he keeps writing in the,

(01:14:35):
heat in a. Gush he once said that's the best
approach for any brainstorming or planning as. Well get it
all out in the, moment in the frothy. Heat you
can always revise it, LATER i. Promise David mammott's new
Film Henry johnson is available for download Starting may. Ninth
it's available At henry johnsonmovie dot com And Shilah boof

(01:14:59):
is in credible in. IT i hope you'll come back
to a Royal grande. Soon why live a dry trickle
of a life when if you fill it with good,
things it can flow into a, broad Thriving Arroyo. Grande
I'm Raymond. Arroyo make sure you subscribe like this, Episode
thanks for diving, in and we'll see you next. Time
Arroyo grande is produced in partnership With iHeart podcasts and

(01:15:22):
is available on The iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
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