Fr. Gerald Murray & Robert Royal: The Next Pope - A Deep Dive into the Conclave - Arroyo Grande with Raymond Arroyo

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Conclave, who are the major candidates for pope and
how will the last pope determine his successor? The Conclave
Crew has answers on this edition of The Arroyo Grande
Show with Raymond Arroyo from Rome. Thanks, I'm Raymond Royal.

(00:25):
Welcome to Royal Grande, coming to you from Rome. Go
subscribe to the show now and turn the notifications on
so you know what's coming. This episode is brought to
you by our friends at Taylor Frigone Capital Management, Faith,
Family and Finances. Visit Taylorfregone dot com. Let's convene the
Conclave Crew, Father Gerald Murray Cannon, lawyer from the Archdiocese

(00:47):
of New York, and Robert Royal, editor in chief of
The Catholic Thing dot Org. I'm Raymond Royo. We're going
to explore the major candidates for the papacy, at least
those we're hearing about most frequently as we travel about Rome,
as we go to dinners and talk with cardinals, and
later we'll explore the factors that will determine this papal

(01:08):
election that you might not be aware of. Watch Bob,
I'm going to start with you about the history of
this process of selecting a pope. I know in twelve
seventy four they instituted this idea of locking the cardinals
into the Cistine chapel kunkab with the key. And the
reason was, I think the conflict was just going too long.
It was over several years, and they felt they couldn't

(01:31):
put up with this anymore, so they locked them in
and denied them food. Tell me about the current version
of this. Why have these traditions endured? Why continue to
do that when they could meet in the Paul the
sixth Senate Hall where they've been meeting and pick a
pope there.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Well, besides the beauty and the tradition of the Cystine chapel,
I think that it's important and people have realized this
more and more, particularly with all the electronic surveillance capabilities
that exist, that these people when they go into vote
are really insulated from any pressure.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
There's plenty of pressure from.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
The outside right now, all kinds of groups talking to
people and trying to get their you know, their channel
moving along. But you've got a certain pascheantry to this
that I think is kind of important to preserve because
otherwise this just becomes a democratic process, and it's not that.
It really is reaching back into a long history of

(02:25):
two thousand year history of the successors to Peter. And
what better place to kind of convey that than in
the splendor that Michaelangelo painted that gives us not only
the moment of creation, but the prophets and so much
more in the Sistine Chapel and.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Father, I imagine there's a little fear and trembling when you
approach that Michelangelo masterpiece of the Last Judgment, and he's
got popes and bishops, you know, in the mire of
hell there. So I guess it's a reminder as they
make their power to God and cast their vote.

Speaker 4 (02:57):
Surely that's exactly what's going on. In fact, yes, this
is a sacred activity that they're engaged in selecting the
next Bishop of Rome, the next Vicar of Christ, the
next Supreme Ponta. So to contemplate the eternal judgment that
God renders on us. That's that's the best way to
make a good vote, I think, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
Okay, I want to talk for a moment everybody. For
those who are new to this, they see these men
wearing red, which is a way of signifying their willingness
to spill their blood for Christ. Talk a bit about
how they're selected, why a cardinal is different from a bishop, Bob,
I'll let you start there.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, I'll defers to a certain extent to our canonist here,
of course. But cardinals obviously have a special status. They're bishops,
like all other bishops in the church. They normally are
selected because they are presiding over a large sea. It
could be a place like Paris, although Paris doesn't have

(03:52):
one because but Francis chose not.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
To do that.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
It could be a place like Milan. Milan does not
have one this time because of the previous pope selections.
But as we know from the United States and elsewhere,
in a place like New York, Chicago, can of Los
Angeles has not been chosing this Timerald. They're the places
they typically you select a bishop from because he has
a wide experience, he has a large responsibility already. And

(04:17):
these are the men that come together periodically, very often.
They've been appointed to these dead castories that they've run,
the various offices in the Roman courtier. They get to
know one another, they learned about the business of the church.
They advise the Holy Father and it's a good way
to have a kind of a collegiality at a very
high level, but without reducing it to simply kind of

(04:39):
a representation by regions or a kind of a democratic process.
It's a kind of a spirituality linked with the practicalities
of a global church.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
In the last few days, some candidates seem to be
moving to the fore and I've been getting a lot
of emails over the weekend and today tell us who
the candidates are. Now, I say these aim to be
on the roster because this process feels more vague than
the last two conclaves, mostly because these men don't know
each other and they are not aligned in their vision
of the church or perspective on the world. So I

(05:12):
want to start. I'm going to break this up into groups.
We'll start with the progressive candidates, who were hearing the
most about while we're in Rome, then move on to
the traditional conservative candidates, and then those who might be
considered compromised, starting with Cardinal Pietro Paoline father than Bob.
The oddsmakers have him at the top of their list.
He's seventy years old, the second most powerful man in

(05:34):
the Vatican after Pope Francis. He was a lifelong diplomat.
He worked in Nigeria, in Mexico. Father his great protege
was Cardinal Silver Screening, who was part of that Saint
Gallen group that we have to say it engineered Pope
Francis's election. Why might cardinals choose him and why not?

Speaker 4 (05:53):
Cardinal Paroline would represent continuity to a large extent with
the vision and actions of Poe France. He worked with
Pout Francis for twelve years. As the Secretary of State.
He was implementing most of post Francis's important decisions in
the international field, such as the China Deal, such as
his concern for ecology and immigration. Cardinal Paroline is well

(06:16):
known because most of the cardinals, all of them would
have met him when they came to Rome in order
to receive their red hat. So other cardinals don't know
each other often cases because there were no very few
general meetings of the cardinals under Pot Francis, they all
know who Cardinal Paroline is, so yeah, he would represent continuity.
His style is less abrasive than post Francis, For Francis

(06:41):
did have an abrasive style with people that he disagreed with.
And a few people found out to their regret that
if you crossed Po Francis disagreed, you might not continue
to be living where you are, such as Archbishop Gensfeind
was told to leave Rome and Cardinal berg was told
to leave his residence. I would expect Paralleline to get

(07:01):
a lot of votes on the first day.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
Really, Okay, Bob, tell me about that China deal with
father reference. That obviously a major dark mark on Pope
Francis's pontificate. But Cardinal Parlene was at the center of that.
He was the man moving it. Really, he was moving
it from the early you know, the earliest moments of
this pontificate and the Vatican finances with which he bears

(07:28):
some culpability. Talk to me about that. A story just
emerged that his signature showed up on that London real
estate deal that went belly up.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, these are two things that I think are probably
already limiting the number of people who are willing to
support him, because we know from people like our friend
Cardinal Zen, who has been a very courageous, clear voice
for the Catholics and others just human rights defense in
that awful communist Chinese regime. We know that he's that

(08:01):
this agreement is basically abandoned Chinese Catholics. Just during this interregnum,
we have seen that these Chinese have appointed two bishops.
They are in theory, we don't know what the accord was,
but in theory they're supposed to propose some candidates and
Rome is either supposed to say yes or no. There's

(08:22):
no one in Rome right now to approve or disapprove,
and they just appointed two bishops, knowing full well that
there's no partner that they're in conversation with. So I
think anybody who's paying attention knows that Cardinal Potterlin has
just blown it with the Chinese. The Church is under
the thumb of a totalitarian regime and there doesn't seem

(08:43):
to be any way to roll this back.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
Now.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Similarly, the thing that you just mentioned on Sloan Street
in London where the church lost probably just short of
two hundred million euros, maybe even more of We don't
really know how that shaked out in the end, and
he was closely responsible for that. Now, you know, you
try to track these money matters down in the Vatican
etiquets extremely complicated. People are pointing fingers at one another.

(09:08):
The Pope signed off on this. He signed off. But
however you want to want to ultimately decide about this,
Cardinal Paroline is responsible for losing more money than probably
the entire Vatican has as his budget for a given year.
So that too, at a time when we know that
there's a tremendous deficit for the Vatican employees in their
retirement funds. The yearly operations of the Vatican are very

(09:32):
very poor shape. They're selling off assets to kind of
meet their expenses here after year. These are two tough things,
and I think people who are looking for a kind
of reformer who is going to take a slightly different
direction are going.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
To have some doubts about capowerline.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Father. Before we leave this topic, there was a health
scare Cardinal Parolini, it was reported, had a panic attack.
They brought medical personnel in that attended to them for
an hour. The Vatican then came out and denied that story.
But I've spoken to a couple of cardinals who claimed
they were there and saw it. How would that impact
his candidacy.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
Do you think, yes, well, you know, a healthscare based
on some incident involving fluctuating blood pressure well, that could
indicate that the cardinal has a problem that needs to
be attended to. There certainly wouldn't give confidence that you know,
he's going to be a candidate who will not encounter
some medical difficulties. Hard to read without further knowledge, but yeah,

(10:29):
I mean the fact that Vatican denies that other people
say it happened, their right witnesses, etc. A little bit
of intrigue that I'm sure Cardinal Paralley would prefer not
to have.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, let's talk about Cardinal Lewis Antonio Toadgley sixty seven
years old, the kind of a brilliant Asian cardinal from
the Philippines, warm experior known as the Asian Francis. He
was close to that Polonia school and continues to be
a proponent starting with Bob, what is that Bob? And

(11:00):
what do you make of Togli as a candidate?

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Well, in a nutshell, the Bologna school put this a
little bit simply is a proponent of what is called
a hermineutic of rupture, in other words, an understanding of
Vatican two that claims that Vatican who broke with the
previous Church. Now contrary to that, of course, we had
Pope Benedict who talked about a hermautic of continuity, because

(11:24):
in Catholicism there really can't be a radical contradiction between
one period of the Church and another. I mean, we
are always throughout history we're in the same church as
Jesus Christ established.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
But Toadley was very.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Close to that so called school of Bologna. I mean
for something like fifteen years he was involved with their
conferences and whatnot, and they've been a very powerful voice
here in Italy for promoting that idea of rupture. And
other's changed. There's always change when you have a conference
or a senate or whatever, but rupture is something quite different,
and for him to have been that deeply into it,

(11:57):
for me, it raises some profound and even kind of
fundamental questions about who he is. The other thing about
him is I don't think of him as a mature
and stable candidate, if I can put that way. You know,
he's outgoing and he said bulliant, but I think we
want to Pupe with a little bit of gravitas this time.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
Father Toddley was brought to Rome by Pope Francis after
Dnity made march Bishop of Manila in twenty nineteen, he
was prefected the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples. Then
they restructured it he became pro prefect. He was also
president of Caratas International, which is a huge international charity.
The Pope fired him and the entire leadership team in

(12:38):
twenty twenty two. Will that affect his chances here?

Speaker 4 (12:41):
Well, it'll certainly cause questions among people. Is he a
competent manager? What was the reason the Pope fired him?
We never got a full explanation on it, but yeah,
I mean, as with any management position, if your immediate
superior loses confidence in you, you're either a victim or

(13:02):
somebody who failed, and I would say he could be
a combination of both.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
He also has a spotty sex abuse record, according to
some of the reportage, and by that there was I
mean there was a convicted pedophile whom he allowed to
stay on the job at Caratas, which could be an
explanation for why he and the leadership team were cleaned out.
But I want to move on. Cardinal Anders Arborelis of

(13:27):
Sweden seventy five year old. He was Pope Francis's pick.
This is interesting. He was Pope Francis's pick as his
own successor. He entered the Carmelite monastery was elevated by
John Paul the Second. He said, I didn't really understand
that I had to decide things. I was not used
to it. I had never held an eleading position in

(13:47):
a monastery either, and rather withdrawn by nature. Father. He
has a great devotion to the Euchrist, the Virgin Mary.
He's opposed to the German sonon a way. Your thoughts
on his candidacy.

Speaker 4 (13:58):
Now, I think he's an excellent Candiday. He is a
convert to the faith. He's the first native Swiss, native
Swedish bishop since the Reformation, and he's done an outstanding job.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
In my opinion.

Speaker 4 (14:11):
The Nordic Bishop's conference is one of the best in
the world. They have some excellent bishops in the Scandinavian countries.
The man is very educated, a linguist, so I think
he would be a very good candidate for the papacy
and someone that will get a serious consideration during the voting.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Bob Wire progressives advancing that candidacy, do you think.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Well, there are certain issues in which he follows along
with Francis. I think he's a strong proponent of further immigration.
I don't see why, because Sweden is actually very disturbed
because of kind of unremulated Muslim immigration. It seems that
some of the immigration has added to the numbers of
Catholics up in Sweden. So maybe there's a kind of
a nuance that he has about what that is. Father

(14:58):
mentioned that he's a linguist. I looked into the because
I studied multiple languages when I was younger, and I'm
not sure he speaks Italian.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
This would be quite interesting.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
If he doesn't, how is he going to conduct his
babacy in English? Or he may be a quick study
and maybe he'll learn learn Italian. And also I think
this would be an interesting twist. He started life as
a Lutheran, so we would probably be getting a Lutheran
Protestant in the back door to come in as a pope.
But he seems to be a very fine man, a

(15:28):
very serious, thoughtful, spiritual man. I also hope that he's
a good administrator, because the next pound is going to
have to be one.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
We're hearing a lot of chatter also about Cardinal Jean
Marc Aveline. He's sixty six years old, Archbishop of Marseille
doctorate in theology, an intimate friend of Pope Francis. Every
time he was here, they'd enjoy time together and spend
time together. He's claims that all the reporters claims that
he reflects Francis's love for immigrants, religious dialogue without an

(16:01):
emphasis on conversion. Father, your reaction to this candidacy, Yeah,
he just shares many traits that Pot Francis brought forth
during his twelve years of the pontificate. He is a
French cardinal and an important diasis in Marseille. But you know,
it's something the cardinals will think about him.

Speaker 4 (16:25):
I'll say that much if they want a continuity, in
other words, continue Francis's different emphasis, you know, economic, political, social,
and doctrinal. I think Abilene would fit the bill, Bob.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
He's a big advocate for decentralizing the church and the
Sonatyl model, which he is a big advocate of. Is
that what these electors are looking for? Is that what
you're hearing here?

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Well, you know, I think that he raises a question,
because we've talked about this before in other context, that
do you put your emphasis mostly on going along to
get along with people around you?

Speaker 3 (16:58):
Or do you are you a.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
More forceful evangelizer? And he was born in Algeria when
Algeria was still a department of France, so it was
technically part of France, and so he's a little bit
sympathetic for the North Africans who were moving into Europe.
And of course Marseille is a very mixed city, and
you have to be able to manage the situations that
you're in. But you know, here comes the question do

(17:21):
we really want to have well, Europeans really want to
see more Muslim immigration. The Muslims who already exist in
most of the large European countries are going to have
to be managed in some fashion. They can't be quite integrated.
They seem to be resistance to integration. Is the church
that he would lead going to be one that consistently

(17:45):
emphasizes listening and welcoming rather than evangelizing. It seems to
me that that's a question not only about him, but
it's going to be for others that you of course,
you want to have peace in the world, to try
to have to reduce conflict, but the church is in
business to evangelize. Christ told us to go out and
preach the Gospel to all nations.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Okay, I want to move to the more traditional candidates. First,
Cardinal Peter Erdo, seventy two year old Archbishop of Budapest
in Hungary. Degrees in theology, in canon law. In fact,
he was a professor to our confre Father Murray. He's
regarded as a holy man devoted to the liturgy. But
you even hear it this week in discussions, a timid man,

(18:25):
even a shy man. What do we know of Father Murray?
A very accurate description.

Speaker 4 (18:30):
Brilliant scholar, a long time of Archbishop of Budapest. He
has force of conviction. He's definitely someone who knows the
difference between.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Right and wrong.

Speaker 4 (18:42):
He's able to analyze the Sonadel Way, for instance. He's
able to analyze Marris Lititzi and the whole question of
what do we do regarding community for divorce and remarried.
He is soft spoken, but he also speaks I think
five languages, so he speaks Italian.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
He would have perfect ease at that.

Speaker 4 (19:01):
Yeah, he represents, in my opinion, someone who's eminently qualified
to continue the heritage of John Paul the second in
Pope Benedict, and then to modify those elements of Pope Francis,
this pontificate, which, in my opinion, the opinion I think
of many cardinals need to be revised because they were,
you know, in conflict with what was taught previously.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Bob, Cardinal George pell a friend of ours here of
happy memory, he thought Erdol would be the perfect successor
to Pope Francis, because I remember him saying he could
restore the rule of law to the Holy see your thoughts.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, you know, when I hear this talk about him
being timid, I was actually in the room. I think
Father Murray was as well. In the first Senate on
the Family, there was an interim report that came out
and in the Sala Stampa it was noted in the
summary that there was a paragraph asking people to value

(19:57):
what was good in homosexual relationship. And you know, people
were utterly stunned that this was coming in a Vatican document.
It was the first time that it had happened. And
Airdu was the chairman of that session when they were
presenting the intermediate report, and he pointed to Archbishop Bruno
Forte and he said to yes, people wanted to know,
how is this there, what does this mean? And he

(20:18):
pointed out him and he said, look, you wrote that paragraft.
Why don't you explain it to the people.

Speaker 3 (20:23):
So he may be quiet, he may.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
Be soft spoken, but he's also willing to put somebody
on the spot when there's a reason to do that,
for a reason of doctrinal clarity. I think also because
he's a European, and a European not from one of
the major European countries but a little bit outside I
like Hungary and Slovakian and Portugal, some of these sort
of marginal European I think.

Speaker 3 (20:45):
He brings a.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
More steadying European influence to a europe that is in
a lot of turmoil in France, in Italy and England, Germany,
of course, and it would be very interesting to see
what kind of influence he would have.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
I want to now talk about Cardinal Robert Sarah, someone
who we've encountered in different ways. The seventy nine year
old former head of the Discipline of the Sacraments, clashed
with Pope Francis on the direction of the liturgy and
other matters. An Orthodox man son of converts from Animism
in Guinea, and he resisted a Marxist dictatorship as a

(21:24):
thirty four year old bishop, earning him the title Baby Bishop.
Tell me about his Orthodoxy father, particularly his love of
sacred worship as the head of the Vatican Liturgy Office
until Pope Francis removed him.

Speaker 4 (21:38):
Yes, Cardinal Sayah is a remarkable man. He's written a
number of books, question and answer books in which he
reveals his life history, his convictions, his analysis of the
situation of the church. Now, he has been very forceful.
He wrote a book called God or Nothing, and he said,
that's the question all mankind faces today. Do we follow

(21:59):
God or do we opt for the nothingness, which is
what humanity without God is. He's seventy nine years old
to turn eighty in the month of June. He's still
in good health. He's a vigorous man of prayer, very
serious about spiritual life as being the center of his life.
So this is one of my favorite cardinals, let alone

(22:23):
human beings on the planet. So I hope and pray
that he will get consideration.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
Bob. He's a very fearless and faithful man. I mean,
he spoke out against the suppression of the Latin Liturgy,
the dangers of the Sonatal way and the synod on Cinnadale.
And tell me about the book he released with Pope
Benedict quickly on celibacy that caused an enormous stir and
will that hurt his chances? Do you think or lift them?

Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (22:49):
I think that although that book was kind of a
scandal at the time, and because of the relationships of
Benedict with a Pope Francis, it might be really it
might be overinterpreted now for us to think look back
and think that that might harm it. Look, he's a
terrific man. There's no question that if we want a
pope that's going to radiate holiness and radiate what Jesus

(23:13):
Christ is in his church, there could be no better
candidate than him. Now, as a somewhat historian of the church,
I have to point out that Celestian the fifth, it
was very saintly in his way to think it was
the previous pope who resigned, previous Ratzinger to bene at
the sixteen was a monk and came in because there

(23:34):
was a two year hiatus in the papacy and the
electors were told, you know, you got to make a decision.
They brought him in and he was a disaster. So
we know that a saintly man may not be the
best leader of the church. But if it's clear that
he comes in as the leader but gets around him
a team of administrators and people who are familiar with

(23:56):
the way that the internal machinations of the church play out,
I think he.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
Could be a formidable pope.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
And it's not the case that the pope has to
run everything he could. If he's wise, and he certainly is,
he will find people who will help him.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
Father Jerry, are you hearing him talked about in town?
People they love him, they think he was a great
is a great man, and a great witness to the faith.
But I haven't heard him talked about as a candidate. No.

Speaker 4 (24:22):
And he's an internet phenomenon because he's so well known.
But he is seventy nine years old, and yeah, that's
taken into consideration.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, all right, let's move on to Cardinal William Ike.
He's the Archbishop of Utrech in the Netherlands, seventy one
year old medical doctor with a moral theology and philosophy
degree from the Angelicum here in Rome. Bob, He's fought
the secularism in the Netherlands. He's regarded as fiercely pro life.
Orthodox talk about his defensive marriage and the opposition to

(24:57):
same sex blessings. Whoever wants to.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
Take that, Yeah, well, I mean you put your finger
on the important thing about him. I mean, he's a
man who is a doctor before he had got his
religious vocation, and he's not going to be hoodwinked by
a lot of things that are said in public that
seem to be progressive but in fact are very anti live,
anti human.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
Even the way that I would put it.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
And to come out of the country that he does
in New attracting and to be a strong advocate for
marriage and the family. I think this is something that
Europe really really needs to hear, because it's not only
that Europe has this immigration problem the way we do
to a certain extent in North America. It also is
falling off the demographic cliff and if there aren't children

(25:43):
born in Europe, Europe will simply will It'll disappear, It'll
float away. So he's a guy that will come at
this with both the credibility of knowing some science, probably
knowing some social science, but also having a very very
moral and theological formation father.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
There was a quote I read of his and he said,
the first secret about Hell. It made me think of you.
He said, the first secret about Hell. Well, I think
it's really a secret that remains highly relevant for our time.
That's our duty to make sure that we are in
charge of announcing the Catholic faith, that people don't end
up in Hell, and to warn them about it. And
he goes on and on. He also did a total

(26:23):
financial overhaul in his troubled diocese when he came in.
Does that help his candidacy? Father? Though he did have
to close two thirds of the churches there. I mean
there was low attendance and no priests.

Speaker 4 (26:33):
Well, well help his candidacy if people know about it.
And this is one of the big issues. You know,
how each cardinal has run their own diocese is largely unknown,
I think to many of the cardinals because they don't meet,
they don't talk. And then you have newcomers from small
dioceses in far away places that you know, probably never
heard of the Diocese of Uhtrek to the extent of

(26:54):
knowing what's going on there.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
They know it's a city and an.

Speaker 4 (26:56):
Important historical place. But this is part of what's going
on right now? All these meetings get to know, and
then you have to trust cardinals who do know. So
it's sort of like, you know, the new students come
into the university and the professor takes him under the
wings and says, okay, you know, this is what you
need to know to be a successful student.

Speaker 3 (27:16):
Here.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah, I want to move on to a cardinal, Malcolm
Ranjith of Sri Lanka. I've been hearing his name whispered
here and there. He's a seventy seven year old studied
in Rome and Jerusalem. Served as Secretary of the Congregation
for the Evangelization of Peoples under John Paul the second
that he was a papal nuncio, a diplomat. He was

(27:39):
secretary at the Congregation for Divine Worship. I was kind
of impressed by the breadth of his experience. It's kind
of remarkable, you know, because then he went back, you know,
he goes back to his neighbor, Sri Lanka. He also
speaks ten languages. Father, could Ranja be a surprise candidate?

Speaker 4 (27:56):
He certainly could. He's a very qualified manners you've just
laid out, and he's served both in the Roman Curia,
and as a diocesan bishop, he's had experience dealing with
the government there. As you may remember, it's a terrorist
attack at Easter time about six years ago, killed people
at different places and churches. So yeah, I know my

(28:17):
friends of mine are very impressed with him. I've never
had the pleasure of meeting him, but I certainly from
what I know, he's a good man and he would
make a good pope.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
Bob. He has said the Eucharist makes the church. He
brought back altar rails just last year, he forbid altar
girls in his in the parishes of his diocese. He
is all in on the reform of the reform. Does
that endear him to this college or alienate him?

Speaker 2 (28:45):
Well, I think we'll see in the voting Raymond, where
you know, we're all kind of trying to predict their
future here. One of the things that struck me about him,
and I've been hearing this from different people, is that
we've been saying that Paroline is the one who has
most been in contact with the various cardinals around the world,
And of course that's true, but if there is a

(29:05):
second figure who's had a lot of contact for the
reasons that father just mentioned that he's occupied so many
different offices, He's done so many different things. He speaks
ten different languages, including Hebrew, which I think is an
amazing thing, and then of course several a couple at
least a couple of East Asian languages as well. If
you're looking for a global pope, for somebody who can

(29:25):
really reach out to the peripheries, I think he fits
the bill much better even than Parolin. He embodies it
and at the same time he seems to embody a
deep Orthodoxy in his understanding of the faith.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
All right, let's talk about Cardinal Pierre Baptista Pizza Bala,
the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem. He's just sixty years old,
which could hurt his candidacy. Twelve years he was the
custus of the Holy Land, that's the Franciscans who sort
of have custody of all of those shrines the Holy Site.
He offered his life recently for the Israeli hostages take

(30:00):
and prisoner by Hamas. How he has very close relations,
which is a tough order, with both the Israelis and
the Palestinians. Born in northern Italy, however, and he's a
biblical scholar. He's got He's very fastidious. I know this
personally about catechists actually practicing and believing the faith that

(30:20):
they're passing on to the young people in his diocese.
What are his chances, especially as an Italian cardinal and
offering his life for those hostages.

Speaker 4 (30:29):
Father, I think he's an excellent chance of being elected.
I think he's an attractive candidate for the reasons that
you said.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
The fact is that we would.

Speaker 4 (30:38):
His first name is Pierre, which is an abbreviation of
Pietro so Peter Peter baptisto John the Baptist Peter Peter
from Jerusalem becoming the successor Peter in Rome. It has
a good ring to it, and no, I think he's
got it. He carries himself with the dignity and the uh,
you know, self assertiveness that's required hired to be a

(31:01):
Catholic bishop and a very troubled region. So I think
he would be a good match for the challenges that
the Roman Curia faces.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
I mean the running out of money.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
They've had, you know, kind of a reorganization which has
really caused some disorganizations. So there are a lot of
things needing to be done. I think he'd be a
man at age sixty with the energy and the knowledge
to do it.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Now. I heard his name being whispered about by different
groups of people, not only you know, traditional cardinals, but
those who are new to this game and just arrived. Bob,
I see Pitzebola as a compromise candidate. I mean, he's
dealt with eighteen different religious congregations in the Holy Land
who are very vocal. But the most interesting thing that
I don't think gets enough attention. And I know that

(31:45):
he and I served on a board for twenty five
years together, so I've known him a long time. He
brought financial solvency to a university in the Holy Land
that had been bleeding money, and he's been in the
Holy Land for thirty five years. I'm also told the
Gaza experience changed him a great deal deep into his faith.
But he's very rooted in the Gospel and a man
of prayer.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
Your thoughts, You know, I just wrote a book about
the twenty first century martyrs, and I have a couple
of stories about him in that book.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
One of the.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Things that he said when he first got to the
Holy Land, and I think when he took over as
custos for the Franciscans. He was told by the Israelis
that people would spit on him if he wore a
cassock as he walked around Jerusalem, and instead of saying, oh, okay,
I won't wear a Kazakh, he said, no, you know,
we're not going to accept that. And when sort of

(32:37):
extreme Zionists have actually attacked Catholic monasteries and whatnot in
the Holy Land, he's been forceful in protecting our people
as much as he's been an advocate for the Palestinians
in Gaza. So look, he's a It would be a
surprise candidacy for an Italian coming from Jerusalem to kind
of catch fire. But at this moment, when we don't

(32:59):
really have I think we can say that, especially if
things go beyond the first day or two in the voting,
I think that all bets are off, and he's come
off so beautifully in that situation in the Middle East,
in Israel and Palestine. I think everyone globally looks at
him as a man of courage who offered his own
body to for those children who were being.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
Held by Hamas.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
You don't often hear of a thing like that. Happening,
and I think that's made him a global figure.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
He also has a reverence for Pope Urban, who established
the feast of Corpus CHRISTI and Father Jerry and I
were with Father Roger Landry, and he reminded us the
last patriarch of Jerusalem who was made pope in twelve
sixty one was Pope Urban the fourth. So it's very
interesting that you know this that connection, So we'll see.
He also he offers the Mass in Hebrew, and I'm

(33:50):
told by some of the friars there are Jewish rabbis
who come and sit in the back and listen to
him because his Hebrew is so great. So we'll see
if that has any linkage. He believes Jerusalem is the
same the Church. It would be interesting if he sat
at the center of the church in Rome as well.
What about an American As we wrap up, we keep
hearing rumblings of Dolan. Robert Prevost, who's a sixty nine

(34:10):
year old Chicago native, served as an Augustinian in Peru
and then Chicago and back again. In twenty twenty two,
there was a case of two priest molesting girls there
in Peru. Critics say he failed to properly investigate those cases,
and the diocese paid the girls off. Follow your thoughts
on his candidacy, Robert Prevost.

Speaker 4 (34:29):
Yeah, he's now the prefect of the Dicastery for naming Bishops,
so he hasn't give an important role by Pope Francis. Obviously,
Poe Francis had a lot of confidence in him. I
think he would represent a continuity candidate with Pope Francis,
so it's possible. But I'm as even though I love
my own country in the United States, citizen and American

(34:50):
one hundred percent, I'm doubtful that in our day and age,
an American who good elected pope.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
You know, I just don't think.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
People are ready for us to be the top of
the list on the church, Bob.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
He also appointed a lot of that dicaster of bishops
he was in charge of, appointed a lot of progressive
bishops and promoted them over the last few years.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
Does that hurt him, Well, it will hurt him a
lot with people who didn't like that sort of thing,
of course. But the wild card in this is that
in the position that he was as the head of
that Dicastria for naming Bishops, he has a lot of
contact with people who are naming future leaders in the church.

(35:34):
So how that will play out, I don't know, But
he doesn't seem to me to be.

Speaker 3 (35:39):
A strong candidate.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
And that scandal that you talked about, it's about the
only thing that I think people generally have heard about him,
and for me, I think that that will probably sink him.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
Father, Jerry, the most surprising thing you've heard today? And
then I'll go to Bob.

Speaker 4 (35:56):
Well, I guess you know, I've heard more good things
about Carl Pitzavalla that I didn't know, and that's really
inspiring because I kind of think he might walk out
on that loajo as our new pope.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
Bob, the most surprising thing you've heard over the last
few days.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Well, you know, we've talked a lot about how the
cardinals don't know one another.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
But the more and.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
More we dig into these people, they're remarkable. Many of
them have had amazing achievements. It's a church spread all
over the world, and maybe it isn't quite the cardinal
the college of Cardinals that we've had in the past.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
But I'm impressed by these guys.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
And so there are a number of different people, some
obviously I prefer over others, but we could get a
very very interesting new pope out of this group.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
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(37:07):
values driven investing to support your faith, family and finances.
There at Taylorfogne dot com. As the cardinals set about
the business of selecting the new pope, where is the
church now? Every pope leaves unfinished business. Let's talk for
a moment, Jens, I mean John Paul was an apostle
who traveled the whole world. He wasn't much of an administrator.

(37:30):
How will Francis's papacy, his record shape the man we're
about to watch be elected Pope? Bob will start with you.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Well, I hope it would, at least at the beginning,
cause the cardinals who are about to elect this man
to reflect very carefully about their most recent choice. Because
we obviously, with the Pope Benedict, we got a theologian,
I mean a world class theologian.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
Who will be read for centuries.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
With Francis, what the cardinals thought they were getting was
a reformer. That was the term that was often used
about it, and in fact, the first biography by Austin
Ivory was called The Great Reformer. Yeah, well, we still
have with us a lot of unfinished business and financial matters,
the matters of sexual abuse and order within the church.

(38:16):
So if you think about what the next leader of
the church ought to be, of course he ought to
be a spiritual man, a follower, a close follower of
Jesus Christ, but somebody who can carry out those other
functions that are sort of governing functions. They're not just
theological and spiritual matters. The church is badly in need

(38:38):
of a rudder right now, and it needs one that
is conceptual, but I think it's one that's also practical.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Father Bob touched on it. I remember those years ago
when twelve years ago, when Pope Francis was elected, and
even Cardinal George pell and others said, this is going
to be a financial reformer. He'll bring an end to
the sexual abuse in the church, to reform the couria,
the bureaucracy of the government. Here has he achieved those things?

(39:05):
Let's start there.

Speaker 4 (39:08):
He did some things to effect change, but in the
end nothing really happened in terms of change and improvement.
He appointed Cardinal Pell to be in charge of the
Secretariat of the Economy as it's called. It's a new
department in the Vatican, and they on earthed and found
many assets money that was being held by individual departments

(39:29):
in the Vatican, which is the way they used to
do it. Cardinal Pell wanted to centralize everything. He wanted
to centralize investments so that they could make money on this.
He also wanted to reform how Vatican assets such as
rental properties were dealt with, and stepped on a lot
of toes and the Pope didn't back Pell, so that
all went to the wayside. Sex abuse. The Pope said

(39:51):
zero tolerance, but then notoriously tolerated Bishops Anketta, who was
convicted by an Argentine court of abusing seminary. He's protected
Father Rupnik, who was thrown out of the Jesuits, and
he's been accused by many many nuns of having committed
sex abuse in his capacity as their spiritual director. So

(40:12):
there are lots of contradictions. He did issue a reform
of the Roman curia, but in my opinion, made it
more bureaucratic and less gospel or reflective. So I think
it's an unfinished agenda, but it remains very much an
agenda needing to be done.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
One of the things that again this episode sort of
focused on the factors that will shape the choice of
the next pope. How much of that do you think
will factor in the finances, the sex abuse, and the bureaucracy.
That is really well, our colleague get pent and told
us today he ran into somebody's Vatican employee. He said,

(40:49):
how do you feel with Pope France has gone? And
the man told him free, I feel free. That tells
us a lot, Bob. How much will all that play
in the minds of these electors.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Well, we could hope that it will play a lot
in their minds, But as we've said in other places
during the course of covering this papacy, it's not clear
that the cardinals who are going to have to make
the decision or as aware of the challenges facing the
church as say people like us are follow it on
a regular basis. Now, they can't help but be aware

(41:20):
of the financial problem because that's been announced that you know,
it has a huge, huge deficit in terms of the
retirement funds for the Vatican employees. The Peters pencils is
very much down. You can see that they're trying to
use every possibility during this jubilee year of collecting six
zeros here, seven euros there, because it's just the operating

(41:44):
fund is also very far down.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
And they were all briefed on this the other day
in their private meeting. We should tell people.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Now, you know, I think that you know, a reasonably
responsible human being is going to take that very seriously.
Because that the Vatican is not able to operate, all
the other things start to be put in jeopardy.

Speaker 3 (42:04):
The business with the cleaning.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
Up of the sexual matters.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
I don't know how much they know about that.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Maybe they think that the documents themselves have resolved this,
but there's a lot to be done on a practical nature.
As I said earlier, that the next pope is really
going to have to implement a zero tolerance. We heard
a lot about zero tolerance, but in fact there are
special deals. There's kind of what people call in the
secular world two tiered policing. People at the lower level

(42:32):
are slapped with fines and with penalties, and then people
like Rupnik, who's a famous artist, Father Marco Rupnik goes
on as merry way. So look, there's much to be
done here, and let's hope that these people look very
very closely at those questions.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
Father, your thoughts on this? How large will these issues
loom in the minds of these cardinals? What we're hearing
this week? You know, we spoke to cardinal, we spoke
to others. There seems to be a sentimentality almost in
these in these meetings where they keep harkening back to
some imagined, synotal fantasy land that Pope Frances envisioned or

(43:12):
was about to implement. Speak to all of that.

Speaker 4 (43:15):
Yeah, no, I think the Bob is right. These things
are important, and they would seem to indicate we need
a pope who has some managerial experience, but even more
than that, who has a backbone and is able to
make decisions. We know, I know a lot of smart
people who can analyze a problem, but if you told
them time to solve it, they would you run out
of the room and they say, that's not my job.

(43:37):
I'm here just to observe. Now we need somebody who's
not an observer on what's happening in the Vatican. In
the Church and the other hand, the job description of
the pope is not primarily management. It's primarily preaching the
Gospel and guiding the flock. So you know, guiding the
flock means governing. It means using the pastoral staff to
guide the flock to go to this pasture and avoid

(43:58):
that rocky ground. So that means teaching the truth and
enforcing the doctrinal limitations in the church. You know, part
of the problem and this pontificate is that people who
contradicted the teaching of the Church were put forward. The
way you destroy, for instance, a naval ship has not
simply just put an exo set missile through the side

(44:19):
of it. It's to have the crew abandon ship by
not knowing what their jobs are, not wanting to do them.
And I think the same thing applies in the church.
We have to reinstall confidence in the Church's mission.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Well look in the coming days. And part of the
reason I wanted to do this series is because I
want people to have a realistic vision of what's actually
happening here in Rome and many people think, well, it's
the conclave, that's when everything happens. They go into the
Cystine Chapel, they're locked away, and there'll be time for that.
But we know the real business of this conclave choosing

(44:51):
a pope, has already begun, and that's during these general
Congregation meetings, when these cardinals come together one hundred and
thirty three the electors gathered here. Bob speak to how
well these men know each other, and how their ignorance
of one another, as well as their ignorance of the

(45:11):
dioceses that these men have control over or dominion over,
how that will influence the ultimate selection here.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
You know a lot of people are worried that because
Pope Francis appointed so many of the electors, that it's
going to be following directly in his line. And of
course some other people that he appointed are very very
close to what he tried to do with his papacy.
The other is the ones that we talk about coming
from the peripheries. They're much more of a wild card.

(45:40):
If you're from you're a cardinal in Mongolia, where there
are five thousand Catholics, and you just got appointed because
the Holy Father happened to see you last week and
he liked here, or you're from Tongar, you're from one
of these other small countries. That really changes things in
the way that you don't really know the other people.
You haven't been involved in working at the level with
other cardinals on stuff within the church or maybe international

(46:03):
affairs or political matters. So they've got to get to
know one another in these basically seven days, ten days,
twig whatever it is between now and the time they
have to start voting. And that's really not the best
circumstances in which to get to know somebody, because everybody
is sort of eyeing one another. It's like a pressure cooker.
I mean, the spirit involves itself in these decisions, but

(46:27):
you really very quickly have to kind of get a
sense of who it is around me, who looks popular,
and you know what kind of things are they pushing?
You know, can I rely on them to deliver on
the things that they're saying that they're going to do.
To do this in just a matter of a few
days or even a week or so, it's not the
best circumstances, but let's just hope that the process goes

(46:49):
as well as it possibly can, given what it's been
built up to over the last dozen years.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
And father, I'll ask you to expand on that. And
over the last few years, really decades, we've seen these conclicts.
The business really happens in small dinners, gatherings in all
the little borgos around the Vatican and all over Rome,
where these cardinals meet each other around the table or
in an intimate setting, and we're talking five or six

(47:14):
of them, and that's where you really get an exchange
of ideas and alliances start to shift. Speak to that.

Speaker 4 (47:21):
Yeah, I mean, everybody in life knows work is important,
but socializing is very important, you know what I mean?
And noother it's one thing that's going to the boss's
office and the boss that here your task, go away,
and then go to the lunch room or the water
cool and say, well, how does this place operate? And
what am I supposed to do? And I think a
lot of the college of cardinals, you know, Number one,

(47:42):
they saw the Pope rarely because they were rarely called
to Rome. And then secondly they then don't know each
other because the Pope did not like having these general
meetings of cardinals. And why not, Well, the reason was
that they had one at the beginning of the pontific
and in which some of the cardinals told the Pope
they didn't agree with the pope so like is so

(48:02):
you know it really the Pope had the idea. Is
sad to say that. You know, it's like meeting the
Queen of England. You're there to listen, not to talk
unless the queen asked you to talk. And I think
with the Pope he wanted to kind of go in
a direction. The issue back then was communion for divorce
and remarried, and there were contradictions by other cardinals, which

(48:22):
I think is healthy and good. And you know, by
the way Benedict and johnpoll the second had a much
more open style of these cardinal meetings, but no Bob.
Back to Bob's point, this is where things are going
to happen, where people are going to listen to each
other for the first time and kind of judge a man.
The old system had had a lot of virtues. The
people who became cardinals the old system, with those who

(48:44):
worked in the Roman curia for a long time, or
those who rose to become archbishops of big diocese, you
occasionally had nun CEOs and ambassadors, but they were also
kind of Roman hands. So he had the people whose
talents were visible because they were the archery of New York, Paris,
La Berlin, Madrid and Lisbon. And then you had people
who knew how the Vatican work. Now, the Vatican basically

(49:08):
has been kind of like in a stutter step motion,
you know, go here one day, go there the next.
The Archbishop of Paris won't be here because he's not
a cardinal, the Archbision of Los Angeles won't be here
because he's not a card and same with Baltimore. So
we deal with the people that we have, and there
are good men there, but you know, getting to know

(49:29):
them is going.

Speaker 3 (49:30):
To be tough.

Speaker 4 (49:30):
I hope there's a lot of that socializing time.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Yeah, well, let's lean into that for a minute, Bob.
Do you think Cardinal Paroline, the Secretary of State, has
emerged as one of the candidates. You saw him almost
pushing his own candidacy the other day. He gave a homily.
He wore Pup Francis's miter that he had worn at
a youth gathering and then tried to you know, inspire

(49:54):
and I think connect with the young people. It didn't
go so well. But is that a strike against him
that he worked in the Vatican so long or do
you think these men from the peripheries, from the outer banks,
if you will, of the church, they're looking for somebody
who knows the score and can run things here in Rome.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
Well, I've been living in Washington, d C. For the
last thirty years, so if I may use a Washington term,
some may fear a swamp creature. There's the problem of
people who have gone native and they're really part of
a bureaucracy rather than an evangelizing church that looks outside.
And I think sometimes that's overplayed, although there certainly are

(50:36):
some monseignori who swam around.

Speaker 3 (50:38):
Here in.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Rome.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
Look, it goes both ways, I suppose, as we were
saying earlier, basically the role of a bishop or of
a pope is to teach number one.

Speaker 3 (50:52):
To sanctify and to cover.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
And you know, we're all looking for that strange unicorn
figure who's going to have all those capabilities in excess.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
By Cardinal Dolan saying we want John Pohl, we want
Benedict's rigor, and we want Pope Francis's heart, Well, those
are three different people. It's kind of a hard mix.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
Just before he died, Cardinal pell and I were having
lunch and I said to him, you know, you've been
very close to the Holy Father. Is he just being
deceived on some of these matters by the people around him?
And he said to me, oh, Robert, he said, he
has been a bishop and an archbishop and now a
cardinal and a pope for many years, and so he
ought to be aware that people around him may try

(51:37):
to do certain things.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
Maybe they do, and.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
They fool him sometimes, but that's certainly that kind of
experience is something you can't entirely dispense with. A person
who's had to run a large organization, could be a
religious order, it might be some a monastery or something.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
But I think that that's.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
An important feature that I myself am going to be
looking out.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
For a people person so who and that doesn't mean
going out to the strangers, but working with people in
an organization in harmony. That is a big and important
task for any pope because you drop into this bureaucracy
here and you almost have to turn it to your
own designs. The first rule of thumb, and we should

(52:21):
I say this for everybody watching. The first rule of
thumb of interpreting these conclaves and the lead up to them.
This is a battle of narratives. Right now, you heard
Cardinal Giovanni Battista Ray at the funeral of the Pope
try to urge for the continuation of Francis's agenda. The
previous pope always has a great influence, is a major
factor on whoever the next man will be, usually because

(52:44):
the cardinals want to change course from what was, or
adjust or refine, but inevitably what the pope prior shapes
the pope to come. And the media has depicted Francis
as the people's Pope. It reminds me of Cardinal Walter
Asper who described Francis's theology as the people's theology. So

(53:05):
the problem is at times that theology ignored Catholic theology. Father,
tell me about the elements of doctrine, How doctrine and
style will shape the cardinal's decisions here and how Francis's
example influences their votes.

Speaker 4 (53:25):
Yeah, doctrine is the basis of unity in the church,
because doctrine means teaching. Teaching leads to belief. So what
do we believe in in common. Not every Catholic Maths
and Sunday you preach, everybody prays out loud the creed,
they say it all together. The reason is that's what
unites us in faith. The content of doctrine is what
things do we accept as true and what things do

(53:48):
we reject as false? Though that's very important because if
an organization doesn't have a clear notion of what it
believes in, then it's a drift and sad to say.
In the last Pontificate, things that we took for granted
that had been taught directly by Jump all the Second
and Benedict were contradicted and ignored and even overturned. And

(54:08):
they were sexuality issues and the death penalty or all
religions sent to us by God. These questions had been answered,
but they were reopened and the new answer wasn't good.
So we have to have a pope was willing to
say the unity of faith is not the kumbay. Everybody's
in the room smiling at each other, you know, one

(54:29):
of the tropes of the pontagic. Let's all walk together.
So the big question is, well, where are we going
and what are we supposed to talk about on.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
The way you know, and the Apostles.

Speaker 4 (54:39):
Yeah, and then also who gets in line, who's able
to walk, and who's pushed aside and said no, you're
not on the path with us. And the real image
of the church is Jesus on the mount giving the
beatitude sermon. You know, everybody was listening. Jesus was the center,
and we took it in and then tried to apply it.
I think the next pope is going to hopefully embrace

(55:01):
that role and say before I say I want everybody
to love each other, I have to say I want
everybody to believe that they have to love each other,
and that love is not auto created by men men,
it's given to what the rules come from God. In
other words, what does love really mean living God's law?

Speaker 1 (55:19):
Well, for those non Catholics looking, and we'll get into
more of this and subsequent episodes, but the papacy, the
pope is nothing more than the successor of Saint Peter,
that first Apostle. So it's an amazing thing to watch
happen because like the Apostles chose someone to fill Judas's

(55:39):
spot among the twelve, so through time they've come together
and chosen someone to fill Peter spot and that continuous,
unbroken chain of two thousand plus years. I mean, Bob,
you know, we get into the weeds so deep on
this we sometimes forget the grandeur of an importance of
what this is. This is the vicar of Christ, the

(56:00):
first Apostle and his successor. I mean, that's what he's
charged with. Now, there have been spectacular flameouts, Borgier popes
and horrible nightmares, but they didn't change doctrine. Pope Francis
attempted to shift the doctrine around a bit, or at
least the practice of it. I'll let you have the floor.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
At the same time, though, I would encourage people who
are watching or listening not to get to apocalyptic about this.
I never tire of quoting a line from the American
modernist poet Ezra Pound, who said that any institution that
could survive the picturesqueness of the Borges has a certain

(56:40):
native resilience. And our Lord and our Lord told us
that the gates of Hell.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
Shall not prevail against the Church.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
So look, you know, I've got children and grandchildren, so
I'm immediately concerned about the next two or three generations,
and I pray to God that they don't have to
live with the church that's weekend or has lost its way,
or I mean, we all need the church to be
the church. But at the same time, I think we
help a great deal if we maintain that confidence in

(57:11):
ourselves that ultimately the Lord is in charge. We men
try to mess up everything, including the Church, but he's
in charge, and he knows that he tried to redeem
us on the cross, and he has put in motions
something that you rightly say has lasted over two thousand years,
which in human terms is almost a miracle in itself.
So we also worry over the next few days, next

(57:32):
few weeks, perhaps as this election goes forward, but with
a certain confidence in the Lord.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
Yeah, you know, Pope Benedict said famously I posted it
on social media recently, Father that the Holy Spirit doesn't
select the pope. The Holy Spirit guides and inspires. The
Holy Spirit's presence is a confidence in the fact that
they can't mess it up. That's what basically he's said,

(58:00):
And I think there's a lot of wisdom there. People
think the Holy Spirit comes down like a double on
the heads of these one hundred and thirty plus men,
and that their little machines that vote like the Holy
Spirit not necessarily.

Speaker 4 (58:12):
No, the Catholic churche never taught that the Holy Spirit
directly inspired the people who voted for the man who
ends up being the next pope. What we say is
that the cardinals elect the pope, and then you only
become pope when you say I accept this election. So
it's a free choice matter on both sides, the ones
picking and the one accepting, so free choices. You know,

(58:35):
God loves us so much he gave us free choice
and free will. Now, of course, the quality of the
candidates depends on who's in the College of Cardinals. They're
all chosen by the pope. The quality of their deliberations
is how much attention do they pay to what their
job the job description of the pope is, And if
they disagree on what the job description is, then you

(58:56):
can have some problems. But you know, the secret role
people praying for others comes forward in this type of activity.
We need to pray for those cardinals.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
I want to talk about something it's kind of hard
to talk about because I've just run into some people
in recent days who reminded me of this, including a
bishop who was recently script of his title, forced to
resign frankly just days before the Pope went to the hospital.
And this was a bishop who had done nothing wrong
except he had huge numbers of seminarians. I'll just say

(59:28):
it is Bishop Ray of France. He had huge number
of seminarians, but they were traditionally minded, and he was
a traditional bishop, and that attracted young men to the priesthood.
And he was sort of punished for that, sidelined for it,
and driven out of his post. There was an authoritarian
streak in Pope Francis that he recognized when he was

(59:49):
running the Jesuits. He said, you know, coming out of
that experience, after crushing a lot of toasts, he said,
I have an authoritarian you know, default that I have
to be rid of. Well, it's apparent he never really
got rid of it. Talk to me about that, Bob,
and how that could be a sleeper factor here, because
many of those men in the Roman Couria, even if

(01:00:11):
they loved Pope Francis and agreed with him ideologically, they
did suffer the whims his whimsical nature where he would
flip on a dime and say no to something he
just said yes to, and they were subjected to that
sort of thing regularly.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
Yeah, No, I remember very early on, I'm sure both
of you do too, that it wasn't only a matter
of people feeling if they were precarious because the kid
get fired and many were for getting.

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
Crosswires with the Pope.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
They also felt that they didn't know what they were
supposed to do. And you know, that's one of the
other consequences of unclear teaching or unclear governance, that if
you step out too far in one direction, now you
find out that the boss has actually changed what he
hopes is going to happen.

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
Now you look like you're opposing him.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
And these changes happened very very quickly, you know, And
we can even look back toward the beginning. A lot
of this has sort of become ancient history because of
the image that the Holy Father had of being this
sort of gentle grandfather type. You remember when the Sire
Book came out the dictator Pope very early on in
the pontificate, and that was sparked by the way that

(01:01:18):
he man handled and I think that's not so too
strong a term. The Knights of Malta, where Cardinal Burke
was bounced out of there. Some other people came and
left very quickly, and Malta was like an independently recognized
almost nation. And that was that was an early sign
and when we saw it develop that. On the one hand, yes,

(01:01:41):
he had he presented this very gentle, caring, merciful character
and a lot of people who attested to that. But
he also had the iron fist and the velvet glove
whenever it came to something you really wanted to get done.
I won't speak to Canon long because we got the
Canon lawyer here, but obviously a lot, a lot of
that stuff just broke the bounds of what might be
called legal within the caste.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
Father speak to that. I mean, not only the knights
of Malta. Opus Day was opened up and rediscovered. He
shut down conservative traditional Latin Rite communities because they were
too devotional, an old school which he didn't care for.
Cardinal Pell, who was only doing his bidding. Cardinal Pell

(01:02:24):
was charged with finding all the hidden bank accounts and
fixing the finances of the Vatican. When he did it
and brought an accounting firm in, the Pope was convinced
to fire that firm, and soon fire Pell. I mean
it boggles the mind in many ways.

Speaker 4 (01:02:40):
Yeah, during the pontific If, Pope France has showed that
he didn't consider canon law to be a very important
part of his responsibility as pope, even though the church
teaching is that pope is the lawgiver, so not only
does he give the law, he also enforces it. And
then you know this was not done. For instance, a
couple of bishops were removed, one in Puerto Rico Daniel Fernandez,

(01:03:03):
we had Bishop Strickland in the United States. They were
removed without proper canonical process, and decrees enunciating why they
were removed were never issued. Because in canon law, if
you're accused of committing an offense that would merit some
form of punishment, you have a right to self defense.
So the right to self defense includes you're informed of

(01:03:26):
the charge, you're giving the evidence behind the charge, and
then you were able to respond to that evidence, produce
your own evidence, and then there's a hearing so that
the independent judgment can be rendered. And none of that happened.
You know, Bishop Strickland was called in Nuncio's office and
get told these are the reasons why you can't be
bishop anymore, and he never heard anything more.

Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
You know, he just was out. But how cognizant do
you think the cardinal's gathering just a few blocks from
where we are, How cognizant are they of this? Why widespread,
if you will, cleansing and firing of people that the
Pope just disagreed with. But they've done nothing wrong. They
were good men otherwise.

Speaker 4 (01:04:10):
Yeah, I think there's general knowledge that sutly affected Cardinal Burke.
You know, he was denied his salary and his subsidized apartment,
which are given to all cardinals because they work for
the Church and the Roman Curia and the Holy See.
They're aware of it. I think they were uncomfortable with it.
So I hope and pray that in their deliberations they
identified whatever man is a chosen and accepts the election

(01:04:33):
cannot continue to act arbitrarily and ignore canon law because
people think canon law just a bunch of rules to
make people unhappy and restrict their freedom. No, a lot
of other things that make people unhappy and restrict their freedom,
you know, how about sin and vice. But law, it
properly appride, allows everyone to have their rights respected. And
if there's anything we need in the modern world to

(01:04:54):
say people have rights. You can't say you have a
right if it's not respected by the people in charge.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Bob, what's another factor that you think we are unaware
of or the public is unaware of, that will determine
the outcome of this papal election. Is there anything else
that you see?

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
Well, we are warned in the Old Testament not to
go after soothsayers and predictors in the future.

Speaker 3 (01:05:18):
Certainly be very careful of.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
I'm not asking you to do that factors.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
I'm not candidates, but you know, I think I've been
saying this now for a couple of years, but I
really do think that the cardinals from the peripheries could
be a surprise. You know, we pretty much know what
our American delegation is like. It's very much in the
mccarack line and close to Pope France's. We know what
the Africans are. Europeans are a little bit more of

(01:05:44):
a mixed bag. But some of the people that are
farther out from the traditions with which we're familiar, they
might surprise us. I would have to think that if
there's a place that the Holy Spirit is going to
be working a little bit over time, it would have
to be in one of that group of people because
they're going to be learning. They're going to be our
very stiff, steep learning curve, and I think they will

(01:06:04):
want to play a role. They'll be looking at some
of the figures that they've looked up to in the
past as leaders. But I think they're going to begin
to make their own own judgments and I'm hoping that
the God of surprises is going to surprise us.

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
Well, you know, Pope Francis father used to always say,
well he told young people, and I think I would
argue it's the it's the key to unlock his papacy.
He told young people, go out and make a mess.
God wants you to go out and make a mess,
meaning don't you know, don't don't follow the age or
the world, go do your own thing. But in fact

(01:06:39):
and in his papacy, he too went out and made
a mess. What impact will that have? Do you think
the incoherence at times, the back and forth, you know,
where he says we have to go out and bless
gay unions. I want every priest to do this. Then
the Africans come back. One of the voters here, Cardinal
Abongo from Congo comes and says, we can't accept this

(01:07:01):
on the continent of Africa. This is illegal. We'll never
accept this. So he says, okay, fine, we'll give you
a carve out, and they basically did a moral carve
out for Africa. Well, why is Africa different from you know,
Manhattan or Poughkeepsie. Speak to that and how that might
shape these cardinals on the peripheric.

Speaker 4 (01:07:20):
No, this is part of the incoherence that we experienced
and that we have to call a spade a space.
It is incoherent to say Catholic teaching is X. Everybody
has to follow X. Accept the people in Africa because
they have a different notion where Catholic teaching is No.
It was a political move designed not to cause problems,
and of course they didn't want to withdraw this permission

(01:07:43):
given now for blessing homosexual couples, so they said, okay, well,
where people get upset.

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
They don't have to do it. Well.

Speaker 4 (01:07:50):
Look, the point here, I think for the overall conclave
discussion phase is do we want to admit we have
a problem and then do something about it, or do
we want to pretend everything was fine and we need
someone who's going to continue with that line, because, of
course Poe Francis did not admit that there was a
problem with gay blessings or community for divorce and remarried.

(01:08:12):
He thought the problem was the people who disagree with
him on that. So much as we love the pope,
that doesn't mean we agree with everything he does when
it contradicts what his predecessors did. So the cardinals have
to make a courageous decision. Will they say yes to
the church's constant tradition and teaching, or will they say no?
What got started in the Last Manivit has to continue.

(01:08:35):
That's the really stark choice they face.

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
That is it? That is really the choice right there.
And the question is, Bob, are they hearing that? I
know a number of cardinals have gone into these general
meetings this week and said, brothers, we have a problem.
There's a lack of clarity, that people are confused, that
they're abandoning us because of this. We are the s.
We are the axis Mundi, as our friend Richard Nuhaus
used to say, this is the axis mundi upon which

(01:08:59):
the whole world turns. When you throw that off balance,
every faith is thrown off balance. Do you think they're
getting that message. I'm hearing mixed things.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
Yeah, I'm hearing that as well. I think that they
are not particularly well informed about these controversies and potential
crises that exist in the church, potential divisions. Our friend
Cardinal Mueller has talked about the possibility of sism if
some of these things aren't remedied, and I agree with
that absolutely entirely. And then there's just a bigger question

(01:09:29):
what is the role of the church in the world
right now?

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
Now?

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
We want the church to be going out and evangelizing,
but should it be evangelizing in a way that it
entangles it in some certain political issues.

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):
Like immigration for example. We've talked about this before on.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
The show, which make it almost look like to be
a Catholic in our time is to take a certain
political stance. I think that that's the wrong thing for
a pope to do, and in fact, I think it's
been counterproductive, not only in North America but also in
Europe that the Pope Francis harped so much on the
immigration question when everyday people are finding their communities being

(01:10:09):
destroyed and even the rule of law being violated in
certain areas because certain groups are given preference that there's
two tiered policing, for example, in some places. So look,
there's a lot there, and there's a lot within the church,
and there's a lot outside. I don't have a great
deal of confidence that these people are hearing it. I

(01:10:30):
don't have to have a great deal of confidence that
they knew it before they arrived here. So you know,
I mentioned the steep learning curve.

Speaker 3 (01:10:37):
Let's just hope.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
Yeah, that's all you can do at the end of
the day, hope and pray, which you know, Cardinal Burke
has launched this novena, a crusade, if you will, a
prayer to invite the Holy Spirit to work a miracle
here and break through the consciences of these cardinals fathers.
As we wrap up, the most surprising thing you heard

(01:11:01):
or came across in the last couple of days. One
hears and sees things here that you don't see other places.
I mean, you just come across the entirety of the church.
It's sort of the crossroads for the world.

Speaker 4 (01:11:13):
Well, that's a hard question. I guess the most surprising
thing is that hearing the notion that there's kind of
a resistance to candor resistance to the appeals of people
in the College of Cardins who are dissatisfied with what
we have, because if that's the case, then we're you know,

(01:11:34):
amnesia becomes a requisite for getting the next pope elected.
I mean, how can you pretend, with the decline in
religious practice in Europe, for instance, that we don't have
a five alarm fire going on in the church in Europe.
I mean we have basically a political class hostile to
the church. People aren't going there. The ones who like

(01:11:56):
the Latin Mass and were going were being evicted, and
we have people resigning from the church in Germany, the
vocations picture the birth Dearth. You know, all of the
problems that we have in Europe and to say that
the mission of church is fine because we're instructing people
that immigrants should be allowed in Capitalism produces death, and

(01:12:16):
you know, we have to do everything possible we can
not to have an environmental crisis and say to well,
wait a minute, I thought religions about getting to heaven
and how to live well on earth. So I think
if the cardinals don't confront that we have a problematic situation,
then they're amnesiacs. And you know, they're not going to
be putting the right man in place. I hope that
doesn't happen.

Speaker 1 (01:12:37):
Yeah, Bob, the most surprising thing you've heard in the
last few days, or they changed your perception of something
you had on your way here.

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
Well, I can give you a precise number a cardinal
that who I trust very much. Yeah, says he thinks
that there are only ten cardinals among the voters who
are actually theologians.

Speaker 1 (01:12:58):
Wow, out of one hundred and thirty three.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
Out of one hundred and thirty three.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
So I don't think he meant by that, you know,
that they were academic theologians, or that they had some
kind of specialty. I think he was just saying that,
you know, it's good solid understanding the faith, the enormous
tradition that we have.

Speaker 3 (01:13:14):
You know, there's been brought forward.

Speaker 2 (01:13:16):
I mean, you can talk about mercy all you like,
but the Church is says that that idea of mercy
is informed by two thousand years a very holy geniuses
who have contributed to a tradition that enables us to
understand human beings, our relationship to one another, and our

(01:13:36):
relationship to God. And if we don't have a rich
understanding of that a person that is, for example, is
not well schooled in Saint Augustine or Saint Thomas aquoiments.
You know, we're just it says tired metaphor, but we're
arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. We're not really
getting to the place we want to get by being
on the ship of faith.

Speaker 3 (01:13:58):
So that number of boy that was a surprising number
to me.

Speaker 1 (01:14:03):
That's troubling. And as father alluded to earlier, at a
time when young people and we saw it over Easter
in France, in the United States, huge numbers coming to
be baptized, and they're all young people, and a lot
of them are guys. I've seen them. I saw them
at old Saint Patrick's Church down in the village. You know,
here are all these young guys coming to be baptized.

(01:14:24):
What is driving that? And here's the real challenge for
the cardinals. Are the young people that are coming. Are
they coming for the church you're giving them and the
church that is and was, or will they find some
other church presented to them that they didn't sign up for.
And that to me is the biggest concern. And if

(01:14:45):
they were, if they're worried about the future, they should
look to that Father.

Speaker 4 (01:14:49):
Yeah, agreement, Raymond, exactly. You know, the enthusiasm in the
church is based on enthusiasm for the eternal truths, the
permanent things, and then the mystic. You know, the mystery
of life does not consist in fixing the plumbing. Plumbing
is important, but that's not why we call a priest,
you know. So you know, the pope's job is not

(01:15:11):
to be chief advisor to human wellness project of the
United Nations.

Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:15:16):
It has to be how do we get people to
recognize Jesus's Lord and then accept his teaching and then
live in accordance with it. And Cardinal Sarah famously wrote
a book called God or Nothing, and I think that
really should be the motto of those going into the
Senate into the conflict. Rather, we're here to serve God.
Otherwise nothing matters.

Speaker 1 (01:15:37):
Well. You also said something early on about candor and
Archbishop Charles ship Hew, formerly of Philadelphia. He wrote a
great piece, very short piece, but he said, I have
lovely and warm memories of Pope Francis. But and interregnum,
the time between the death of the pope and the
election of another, it's a time for candor. He said,
it's a time to candidly say this is what we

(01:15:59):
went through, and this is what we need, this is
what needs fixing. And unless the cardinals are willing to
do that, and all of us, everybody listening, and those
of us here, unless we're willing to engage in that
same candor I worry about the outcome here because then
it collapses into nostalgia and you know, isn't it wonderful?
And police pray for us all and you know, a

(01:16:20):
sainted pope. It's just it's not reality. I'll give you
all each the last word of what you're looking forward
to in the week ahead. Bob will start with you.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
Well, I mentioned it earlier.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
I really hope that what we're going to see is
kind of an increasing diversity of yours.

Speaker 3 (01:16:38):
I think is a way to look at it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
That as people begin to know one another and they
feel a little bit more comfortable with one another, they're
willing to venture out and raise some questions. Because we
were all told, you know, we just mentioned these young people,
that there was going to be a Francis effect that
was going to draw people into the church, draw young.

Speaker 3 (01:16:55):
People into the church and whatnot.

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
We haven't seen that and the church is emorrhaging people
left and right, and in the United States, here in Europe,
and it seems to be strong in Africa and a
few other places. But if we want a global effect
of really bringing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to people
so that they come to Christ themselves, I think we

(01:17:17):
need to set off in a different direction. We had
twelve years of mercy, mercy, mercy, and I think we
need something else right now. And I think why is
observers of the church and the world at this point
we'll lash onto that and maybe we'll be surprised that
some of the opinions we start to see a.

Speaker 4 (01:17:34):
Peer Father Gerald Murray, Yeah, Raymond, I would say, I'm
looking forward to hearing more public expressions of what's going
on in these general congregations. And I'm looking forward to
hearing what I would say is basic Christianity being put
forward as the most important criteria here. Yeah, when that

(01:17:55):
cardinal or whoever gets up at a meeting and says X,
y Z, I hope we'll also get in front of
the microphone and tell us because in the age of communications,
it's not enough to tell people we know what we're doing.
You know, trust us. We have to say, tell us
what you want, well, support it if it sounds good.
So that would be what I'd look forward to. More information,

(01:18:17):
more sharing, and then to be quite honest, more cardinals, Sarah,
approach God or nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:18:23):
Okay, here's the hall. Cutting through all of this, I
sometimes feel I'm covering disoriented journalists as they cover disoriented cardinalists.
There are more than four thousand journalists in Rome for
this papal event, so many of them are asking me directions.
They're not sure what a conclave is. They're mistaking bishops

(01:18:45):
and monsignors for cardinals. So I get it. Poor guys
get dropped in the middle of a major news story.
They're trying to figure it out. The problem is that
he's very complex. The ritual's complex, the lead up is complex,
and the payoff is even more complex. So there's a
lot of unpredicted in this conclave. As we keep repeating,
the cardinals don't know each other, and for ten years

(01:19:05):
Pope France has forbade meetings of the College of Cardinals,
so this is the first time they've all been together
in a decade before many of them were even chosen.
So the outcome is in God's hands. Stay tuned and
stay with us for daily updates from the conclave. Crew
will bring you those from Rome throughout this conclave and

(01:19:27):
then the election of the new Pope. Go subscribe to
a Royal Grande Show on YouTube at the Royal Grande
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And this series has been brought to you by our
friends at Taylor Frigone Capital Management, Faith, Family and Finances.
They're committed to all three. They're at Taylorfrigone dot com.
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(01:19:53):
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Fr. Gerald Murray & Robert Royal: The Next Pope - A Deep Dive into the Conclave

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Fr. Gerald Murray & Robert Royal: The Next Pope - A Deep Dive into the Conclave