March 19, 2025 • 44 mins
What does it take to bring one of history’s most legendary figures to life? In this episode of Arroyo Grande, filmmaker Jon Erwin (Jesus Revolution, I Can Only Imagine) takes us behind the scenes of his latest project, House of David, a sweeping new series on Amazon Prime.
We dive into the hero’s journey—both on-screen and in real life—as Jon shares how the story of King David mirrors our own struggles, victories, and leaps of faith. From his unexpected start as a teenage cameraman to helming an epic biblical adaptation, Jon discusses the cost of destiny, the power of storytelling, and the lessons we can all learn from David’s trials and triumphs.
Plus, we unpack what makes a true hero, why faith and film are colliding in a big way, and how taking risks—like David against Goliath—can lead to life’s greatest rewards.
Before our deep dive with Jon, we take a look at the idea of heroism in Hollywood today—from Carrie-Anne Moss’ surprising take on career versus family to the controversy surrounding Disney’s Snow White remake. What does it really mean to be a hero, and why does Hollywood keep rewriting its own classic stories?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Is there anything you learned about David after going through this?
I mean, I know you're still in it.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
You're versed in this world.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
It's not until you dramatize the events that you realize, Oh,
he never had to write any of this stuff, and
the fact that he did is a huge part of
what makes him relatable and great. And so it just
reminds me of like God can use it all. And
I think that that is the hero's journey. And I
think we all have a hero's journey to live, and
(00:26):
I think our fear keeps us from living that hero's journey.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm Raven Arroyo. Welcome to Arroyo Grande. All of us
want to live a hero's journey, but how do you
do that? The hero's journey is really derived from that
story of David and Goliath in the West. Every classic
story proceeds from there. Henry the Fifth facing the French,
Peter Pan versus Hook, and you versus whoever you're fighting.
(01:01):
This week, director John Irwin has created an epic new series,
The House of David, covering the life of King David
on Amazon Prime. And they'll tell us in moments how
he discovered the hero's journey in his own life and
how you can too. By the way, go subscribe to
the show right now, Go to YouTube or wherever you
get your podcast. Turn on notifications. I don't want you
(01:23):
missing an episode. Okay, first, a little free flow. I
was thinking about heroes this week. What makes a hero?
Certainly not spandex and a cape, I mean military veterans
come to mind. There are political heroes and of course
Madam Webb, though that's barely a hero. And to me,
heroes are the people who fulfill their duty and don't
(01:44):
yearn for credit. There was a story this week that
I'll bet most of you missed. You remember the Matrix
series actress Carrie Ann Moss. She played Trinity opposite Keanu
Reeves in all of those films. She told The Independent
quote after the Matrix was such a big deal. I
took a big, big break to have children and to
(02:05):
be with them now. It's easy to make that kind
of decision when nothing's happening, But when big, worldly offers
are being thrust upon you, it's hard to turn away.
It's like Lizo at an ozempic house party, hard to
turn away, Like Blake Lively at her lawyer's office. Let's
file one more complaint against that Baldoni guy. Very hard
to turn away. The truth is, I can tell you
(02:27):
there is no more heroic path than starting a family
and nourishing the young lives and trusted to you, you
can't do more important work. Well, how do you know that, Raymond?
I do have three grown kids, and I know it
because I've lived with one of those heroes for thirty years.
My wife gave up her career to be fully present
to our kids, and now they're grown. Her investment is obvious.
(02:52):
If you want to know why society is in trouble,
why illiteracy is on the rise, why kids are less connected,
less communicative, today, take me to the homes of those kids,
and I'll show you the reason. Time spent with parents.
It is hugely determinative in the life of a child.
The Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, in a twenty
(03:14):
fourteen study, found that an attached parent helped kids regulate
their emotions and form healthy relationships later in life. The
National Institute of Health and Human Development tracked kids from
birth to adolescents. Guess what, The kids with more involved
parents were less likely to engage in drug use. Or
skip school, and an engaged parent affects a child's ability
(03:38):
to read, healthy outcomes, empathy, and so much more time
spent with parents, Heroic moms and dads who take the
time not only to make a new life, but love
that life enough to show up and raise it. Well,
it's hugely important. Carrie Anne Moss said something else here.
I want you to listen to this. She said, I
(03:59):
remember were being torn, having a little twinge like, gosh,
I'm getting offered such great things, that would be such
a huge deal. And I was holding my baby in
my arms, thinking at the end of my life, will
it matter to me that I have another movie on
my resume or will it matter to me that I
held my baby? I instantly thought, no, it was a
(04:22):
no brainer, and I'm so glad I did that. I'm
so glad I don't have that regret. Boy, is that
a loaded sentence. Listen to that. There are so many
parents I know, and when you're a parent looking back,
you can say that sort of thing. It's hard to
resist the allure of the world, and those allurements are
(04:42):
a hell of a lot easier than walking the floors
at night. Doctor visits up, parent teachers conferences, weekend practices.
That is hard work working out of the home a
heck of a lot easier with breaks and vacation time.
Moss is right, at the end of your life, no
one will care about another movie on your resume, but
(05:03):
your kids might, especially if no one was there for them.
I've met so many people who have regrets. Incredible careers, fame,
all the attention, but they're riddled with regrets. The hero's
path is not the easy or the glitzy one, but
the sacrificial one, and it's the most long lasting because
you are literally shaping the future of your own family
(05:26):
and countless others. How many alleged heroes can say that.
There's a movie opening this weekend that desperately wants to
cash in on its venerable heritage while running from it.
It's the live action snow White, and it has more
identity problems than a malfunctioning magic mirror. Rachel Zegler, who
(05:49):
plays snow White in the movie, is a Latina, and
she said years ago that she's playing the role as
a Latina princess. The new movie explains snow White's name
away by mentioning that the lead character survived a snowstorm.
I'm glad it wasn't a power failure. But with this
new backstory, we are suddenly in an entirely new fairy tale,
(06:12):
and it's neither the Brothers Grims nor Disney's Why not
just tell a story with a Latina heroin? Was the
Encountrascript not available? Surely Lynn Manuel Miranda could append a
new song or two.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Or did they.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Fear that no one would come to a live action
version of that movie? I guess it's easier to sell
snow White the brand since it goes back to nineteen
thirty seven, even as the filmmakers try to escape What
made the story so compelling and enduring? What do kids
love about the original movie? What is it the dwarves, sleepy, dopey,
(06:49):
Doc and Tito? Well, this new live action version originally
featured snow White and the Seven Multicultural People, a diverse
collection of actors living in the woods together. I guess
whatever it took to get away from mentioning those dwarves.
But following an angry reaction from the public and protests
from actors who were members of the Dwarfism community, Disney backtracked.
(07:14):
They opted for CGI dwarves and they're animated in a
live action movie. Hi Ho, Hi ho. We're still faith
you know. But don't worry. The dwarves are still not
referenced in the title. Just Noo White or Blanca Nieves
or whoever the character is now. Rachel Zegler ran into
(07:34):
trouble when she gave her gen z opinion of the musty,
outdated character that she was contracted by Disney to play
a few years ago.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Watch this. It's no longer nineteen thirty seven. That is
not going to be vived by the Prince. He's not
going to be.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Saved for the Prince.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
And she's not going to be dreaming about true love.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
She's dreaming about becoming the leader she knows she can be.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So if she's not dreaming of true love and she's
not going to be saved by the prince, why the
hell are they doing a live action movie called Disney's
snow White. It's a double lie. The story does not
conform to the Disney masterpiece. And you have a new
character called snow White who bears no trace of the
brothers grim snow White except for the costume that was Disney's.
(08:18):
And since the Prince isn't going to savor. They've cut
that old Someday My Prince will Come song, replacing it
with something called waiting on a Wish. Like most people,
I'll be waiting for the credits, or maybe for a refund.
The movie is expected to be one of the worst
openings for Disney this year. And as I've said many times,
(08:39):
when the main plot point is that the evil Queen
is jealous because snow White is the fairest of them all,
it's best not to cast wonder Woman as that envious queen.
You may as well invert the whole storyline and have
snow White try to kill the knockout queen, because Galgadot
is definitely the fairest of this duo, and it's pain
(09:00):
fully obvious to anyone watching that magic Mirror is lying
to your Gal. Go get a refund. The other day,
Disney hosted a scaled back premiere, trying to cut their
losses by keeping the press off the red carpet. They
didn't want bothersome media asking the stars uncomfortable questions like
why did you destroy the storyline and why do you
(09:21):
hate half the audience? Zegler made some political comments earlier
this year, saying that half of America should have no
peace go figure. So they staged these painful shots of
little girls dressed as snow White meeting with the stars
while the Disney cameras recorded the forced cuteness. It all
went down like a poisoned apple. I love the pr
(09:44):
lady during her own rendition of the evil Queen, barking
out orders to the kids and Zegler here, look, Disney
needs to retire this whole live action routine. Whether The
Lion King, Pinocchio, Beauty and the Beast, these live action
movies are mostly CGI, which is digital animation with a
(10:07):
handful of actors in front of green screens. With the
unmatchable original animated classic, this new film feels like the others,
another money grabbed by a company that has run out
of ideas. The live action snow White belongs not in
a cineplex but in a nice, contemporary glass coffin. And
(10:28):
let's hope Zegler is right and no print shows up
to save this snow Show. Now to our deep dive.
John Irwin is the director and producer responsible for films
like I Can Only Imagine, Jesus Revolution and American Underdog.
His latest project is House of David and epicrytelling of
(10:49):
King David's life. It's been topping the viewing charts at
Amazon Prime. And I talked to him about the series
and how he found the hero's journey in his own life.
Here's John over One. Tell me how being a cameraman
in Birmingham.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I lived at Birmingham, Alabama. I know it well.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
And I also know the red wave obsession will Auburn,
the Auburn Alabama thing, which I'm not getting into.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Roletide. I know you're a boy, true.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
True, How did that? Your father was also a broadcaster.
But tell me about how being homeschooled. Yeah, and a
cameraman for sports.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Events trained you for this. Well.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
The reason I say rollside is because when I was
fifteen years old at the University of Alabama, which I
lived about forty five minutes away from, a cameraman got
sick about three hours before the kickoff to a game
and I was apprenticing for a cameraman in my church
Carriers Tripod and he called me and he said, get
(11:48):
over here right now. Don't tell anybody you've never done
this before. But I told him I knew a guy,
they're desperate, get over here right now. And that was
my way into Filmington. And I had the time of
my life. I was a homeschooled kid, and I had
never even seen a camera that big. I could zoom
into a quarter of the moon. So I'm just zooming
the camera in and.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Out of the moon.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
I don't know what they were thinking of in the
truck and I and I legitimately had the time of
my life and knew that I had sort of met
my my career obsession. And and you know, I had
the great privilege of a year later, my dad bought
me a camera with money he didn't quite have.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
We went to Israel with.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
A camera I had no idea how to use to
do a little walk and talk documentary, and these stories
just came to life in a whole new way.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
It was my first time to really travel internationally.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
And when you're when you're in the States, you don't
realize that, you know, the America is an experiment, and
it's relatively young on the on the global stage. And
so when you go to a place like Jerusalem, right
you just feel the energy of thousands of years of
story and and I felt that, and I went to
King David's tomb, and the obsession with what would become
(12:56):
House of David started right there.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
But what I had was the ability.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
And what I would recommend to anyone is is uh.
You know, Malcolm Gladwell calls it the ten thousand hour
rule of just the time it takes to hone your
craft and celebrating that time of learning and and.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
UH and learning to do what you do.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
And I was, I just had the privilege of starting
that journey very very early.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And H and I'm grateful. And what was your father's influence.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
I mean, he was a broadcaster, broadcaster, he was a
radio host it and then a two time state senator at Alabama.
But he was a fifty thousand watt station called WDJC.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
He was in talk radio.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
So before I was ten years old, I would I
was sitting behind a mixer at his radio station helping
and H and and he's you know what I love
about my dad first and foremost is he's a He's
a just a dreamer. And he said when he bought
me that camera, he said, dream bowld, dream big, dream
of the impossible.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
And sometimes you know, you just have to you.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Have to have the audacity to believe in what's possible.
And and I learned that from him, and I love
him and and he's he's our biggest fan and and
uh and in the beginning of my journey.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
And then and then you worked for a time with
Alex Kendrick Courageous.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
So I did. I.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
We were My brother and I were music video directors
at the time, and we were winning in Nashville.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
And you do a bunch of them. Yeah, I started
with my.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
W Smith and Amy Grant and uh and but it
was a it was a career at that point. And
I went to direct second unit on a movie for
Alex Kendrick Stephen and Alex, who are wonderful guys uh
called courageous. I went into help them with a camera
they wanted to use, called the Red One, and then
also to direct their action sequences. They were making movies
(14:40):
primarily with church volunteers.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
It was a real Cinderella story.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Well, they wanted to do a police drama with action
sequences evolving cars. You should never combine this ever with
church volunteers. People will die and I'll be a bummer
of a Sunday and so uh and so I went
in with a smaller team of professionals to do the
stunt work and action sequences in that movie.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
And Alex asked me, he.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Said, right off the bat, as Southern Baptist as he is,
he said, you know what's your purpose and the purpose
of your work? And I could not answer the question,
couldn't stop thinking about the question. So that was really
a moment where my career fused with a life's calling.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
And how did you answer it?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
He started, I mean, yeah, it's a great question of like,
I'm an entertainer first and foremost, that's my job, but
the idea to tell stories that that that could be
life changing to other people and to jump off the
cliff of instead of being like I joked around at
the time, I was like the Han Solo of Christianity,
like if you have a ship or if you if
(15:38):
you have money, I've got a ship off liue somewhere.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
The rest is your problem.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
And that led to to making independent films and raising
money for them, very scary transition, and and then you know,
each film built on the last, and then it was
I can only imagine was the breakout, and.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Then and Jesus Revolution and on and on and on
and you work with your brother Andrew. Yeah, what does
Andrew bring to the game.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
You know, it's a oh man, a lot. It's it's
it's a great question. And you know it started with
Andy and I as brothers, and then it's now grown
to this group of filmmakers, uh that you know. John Gunn,
who's here direct co directed this, has written. We we
co wrote five movies together, including Jesus Revolution and H
(16:22):
and obviously Dallas Jenkins with the Chosen. Brit McCorkle, who
co directed Jesus Revolution with me, is now co directing,
uh the sequel that I can only imagine with my
brother right now. So it's become this group of filmmakers
at this cool moment, unprecedented moment in time in our industry.
And Andy is He's great with the human element, as
(16:45):
is John Gunn. He's great with actors, He's great with
the emotion of a scene. And I'm I'm both a
writer and then also a very sort of technical filmmaker,
and so I think a lot of times, you know,
film at it's in its nature is it's a symphony
of art, and it's all these art forms bundled together.
So it really is collaborative at its heart, and when
(17:05):
you embrace that, you can do so much more than
you could ever do alone. And so that collaboration started
with Andy and I and has now grown out to
this group of filmmakers. It's a really cool moment.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
You've got all these Irwin adoptees.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Right, I don't know whose name would be on the
on the mask, but we've all done great work independently.
But when we do it together, there's just a magic
to what we can achieve.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
And so if you think.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
About you know, right now I'm busy making House of David.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
My brother's working on the sequel to to.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
I can only imagine Dallas Jenkins is going into the big,
the big season six of The Chosen, and it's just
amazing to see all that's happening. It really feels like
an unprecedented moment in an industry.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Tell me about David.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
David is obviously an archetype.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
For I know you're a big fan of the hero patology,
that's right.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, the hero's jury.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Which you know he went off the here and there,
but of course the core idea a good one. Tell
me how David is the archetype for that reliant and
the chos.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
I feel like David is the origin of the origin
stories in the sense that I love I'm a sucker
for Lord of the Rings Star Wars.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
One of George Lucas's.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Great influences when he made Star Wars was this book
Here with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. The concept
of that book is that there's these mythic archetypes that
are common in a bunch of stories. I've thought a
lot about why do we need these stories, these heroes, journeys,
these destiny stories.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Why do it?
Speaker 3 (18:34):
And I think it's we're wired to need a savior,
Like in our soul we are wired for a savior.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
And I think we're also wired to crave.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Purpose and meaning to life in a way that we
have a destiny and a role to play in something
meaningful that's bigger than we are.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
And I think that's why we're drawn to these stories.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
And so, which George Lucas credits the success of Star
Wars to a lot of the archetypes in Star Wars
are those mythic archetypes tapping into those And so if
you watch House of David, you know David himself. This
is the one of the original or one of the
original hero's journeys boy chosen to be king. And if
you look at like the Prophet Samuel played by the
(19:18):
Great Stephen Lange, he's very much in the Gandolf.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
You know, it was an archetype thing. And he's even got.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
The beard, flowing white rocks, and the routine and the
sword play, which I don't want to ruin for.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Any of you, but it's all there. It's all there.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
And so if you love these type of stories, I
think whether or not you really know much of the
Bible or not, I think a lot of people know
the term David and Goliath as synonymous with the underdog,
but they don't know the story. And so I think
you'll find it very familiar. Even if you don't know
anything about the story.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
That's kind of the backstory that you didn't know, the origin,
stuff you've forgotten about or didn't never knew.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Correct, tell me what Drew.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
John Irwin to this David character. He's a complex character character.
You know, the boy David's an easy one.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Embrace some love. Yeah, he becomes king.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I think that's you know, well, here's what I find
interesting about it. There's a line where Stephen Lang says
to Michael in the series Your who plays David.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
He says, you.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Know, there's great passions that rage in you, and you're
this will be your blessing and this will be your
curse and basically the greatest war will be within So David,
I find these personalities that can accomplish great things. They
are equal into the mistakes that they can make. You know,
and this is trapped and in a person. So I,
(20:36):
as a filmmaker, I find that very interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Why is this David different?
Speaker 1 (20:42):
And why should people care about a king that lived
thousands of dollars of years ago.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
We know what's interesting is they say, first of all,
the stories are relatable and incredible.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
There's a reason I tell the story.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
I remember when Amazon executives first read the scripts, They're like,
these scripts are really good.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I'm like, it's based off a best seller. You should
check it out.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
And so there's a reason that these stories echo through
time and the idea the timelessness of this person's one
of my favorite bands for King and Country. They just
did a cover of the U two song Psalm forty
year old song three thousand year old lyrics, and it
just shows you how enduring this character. You know, one
(21:27):
of the most famous kings who ever lived. His one
square mile city Jerusalem has has defined much of human history.
We count time by events that happen in that region,
and I think that the story is just incredibly relatable
and epic in every way. And the thing I find
(21:48):
most about that I was probably drawn to is the
authenticity and honesty of the Psalms. Like history is written
by the victor. David was a king. We never had
to know about his mistakes, he could have cleansed his
never had to know that Bathsheba was your eyes wife.
And the fact that this king was writing these authentically
(22:09):
honest human songs and saying sing this to.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
The people is unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
And I think it's his quest for the heart of
God that I find most interesting.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Despite his flaws. I think the further you go in life,
you know, you.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Just make mistakes and you and I think so many
of us identify with the idea that either I'm I'm
unqualified to serve God because I'm not good enough, or
I'm disqualified because it's something that I've done. Like we
wrestle with those things. I know, those are relatable to me,
and I love telling the story of this person who
made some epic accomplishments and epic blunders, but found his
(22:45):
way back to God every time and kept singing through
it all.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
What people don't realize I was in the theater before this,
and when you play a role, when you're immersed in
a character that existed like this, you usually learn something
from them that you did nix you didn't see at
first reading or even after an obsession. Is there anything
you learned about David after going through this? I mean,
I know you're still in it. You're a worst in
(23:08):
this world.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
I think the idea of his almost fearless honesty.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Is the reason why.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
I mean, only about fifteen percent of the psalms are
God is great and life is great. The rest are
I am struggling, you know, help me? And the range
of human emotions are represented in this person's writings, and
I think it's not until you dramatize the events that
you realize, Oh, he never had to write any of
(23:40):
this stuff, and the fact that he did is a
huge part of what makes him.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Relatable and great.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
And so it just reminds me of like God can
use it all. You know, Solomon, who dedicated to always
see the bookkends out of the whole saga. If I
were to be able to tell the whole saga of
these two you know kids basically teenagers crying out to God,
one obscure in the hills of Bethlehem, the other on
the Temple mount, you know, doing what his father couldn't
(24:09):
do and beckoning God to earth at the Temple. And
and and you know, Solomon was best Shiva's son, son
of David's worst mistake. And yet God can use it
all and redeem it all. And David kept singing through
it all. And that is a lesson for me.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
You know, what's the difference between doing and I know,
there's a big difference between doing a feature, oh man,
and doing this television full immersion. And I imagine you
want to go through the whole saga. I mean, it
is the house of David, not the child Again, I I.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
The power of our unified voice as believers is what
affords us this moment to do an Amazon Prime Global
original and have creative control. And so my hope is
that the series does well enough that we can tell
the whole story, because which would be a multi season
epic that we've already mapped out. But I think that
television is my first first foray into television.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
You know, I do future films.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
It is I would say five times the work, but
probably ten times is fulfilling. Like it's just the amount
of story that you can tell is so unbelievable. It's
also tons of work. But I think that's the reason
why there's not been a definitive David movie. It's too
his life is an odyssey. It's too much story to
be crammed into a movie. This is the treatment the
(25:23):
story deserves, I think, which is a is a you know,
hours and hours of exploration keeping epic.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I mean, this is big and very intimate.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I mean, you a full That's.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Why I wanted that. I'm glad you said that.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
I that's why I wanted to partner with John Gunn
primarily on the project, because he's so human in his storytelling,
and he strived for that level of authenticity.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I love scope and scale, so I.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Sort of wanted that fusion and the balance, and it is.
It's it's epic, authentic, intimate stories and and and it's
everything I love about a great TV series, or you know,
it's really a love letter to like the original Fellowship
of the Ring movie in the way they made it
and they went out on the land and did it
for real and or braveheart, I think, and so like
(26:07):
an older.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Way of making it.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
I'm glad you brought I was going to ask you
this later. What's the contribution of Mel Gibson in this
faith space opening this up and kind of setting the benchmark.
You know, I did the first interview on the set
of The Passion you were.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Seeing a rough.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
With three thousand pastors in Florida and being just blown away.
I think Mel is one of the great masters of
the craft of film masters. Any interaction I've had with him,
he will talk your ear off about the craft of film,
and I find it to be immediately applicable and deeply helpful.
(26:47):
And I find him to be one of the most candid,
authentic creators I've ever had the privilege of interacting with.
And I think The Passion is one of the great
works of art in the in the history of our business,
and the leap he took for that movie was an
extraordinary act of faith. And what do they say if
you stand on the shoulders if you see clearly, you
(27:07):
stand on the shoulders of giants. One of these I
love about film history overall is it's like layer upon
layer upon layer of filmmaker reacting to another filmmaker's work,
or given an opportunity because of the success of another filmmaker.
And I just I love his movies, and I love
it the most when he partners with Randa Wallace, which
(27:28):
is another wonderful friend, wonderful.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Writer and director, and I.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Am in their wake and in their shadow and grateful
to be doing any of this and would not be
here without the success.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Why did it take Hollywood all this time? That was
twenty years ago, the past? Yeah, he opened up this
enormous audience. I mean hundreds of millions of dollars that
movie made. Why Why did Holly Wood not jump on
the bandwagon and just say look at this audience.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
It's taken all this time.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
The Wonder Project, YEA, Well, that's the goal and dream
of the Wonder Project is an independent studio that could
endure the test of time.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
To solve that problem.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
I think the core problem is we call it the gap,
and it's a gap between the craft and of filmmaking
and the authenticity of the audience the content. So you typically,
except for Mel Gibson, and I think he made the passion,
then he wanted to.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Go and do other things.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
You know, Thank god he didn't want to do David,
because I wouldn't be here. But you know, I think
that that that other than Mel, you get this thing
of you either get things that are authentic to the
audience but poorly made, or you get things that are
very well made but inauthentic and in some ways of
betrayal to the audience exactly. And so there's been this
gap that we've been trying to close where you, on
(28:49):
the one hand, can make the content excellent but also authentic.
And that has been a problem really that there just
has not been enough Christians inside the industry that are
that are trying to discipline themselves and master the craft
film as much as they can. And that's a lifelong quest.
That's something that you'll ever far achieve. Art has built
(29:09):
over time. But I would say that you know, for me,
David is sort of like the Mount Everest of storytelling,
and it took all the films that I've made to
try to work up to a level of craftsmanship that
I think the story deserved.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
It's not that it's perfect, but I.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Think that that that I should have done this story
five years ago or ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
It took that much time.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
I said, exhausted you more than your thought. Oh yeah,
I would say that. But it's a great exhaustion. I
mean that there's nothing like, you know, being exhausted on
the field battle and a worthy cause, you know, And
so it's a meaningful exhaustion which I find less than.
I would rather be thoroughly exhausted in something that I
believe in than sort of tired in something mediocre.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
There was a great quote I came across from you
that I just loved it, where you mentioned Walt Disney. Yeah,
and I bet you can come up with a quote.
But it was trying to entertain the critics.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I'd rather take take my chances with the people. I mean,
first of I love that.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Was the king of quotes and uh and one of
the great entertainers in the history of entertainment obviously, and
one of the great inspirations. And he was not only
a great creator, he was a great entrepreneur and so
much of the the inventions of technology that drive our
industry came from the Walt Disney Company back to like
the multiplaying camera that iworks made for him. But I
(30:29):
loved his perspective on the audience and and some of
the you know, he had the way of of of
distilling things down to a line, and oftentimes I just
want to make sure, like am I serving and entertaining
the right group of people.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Of course I love it if there's a.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Good critic review or when you know, American Underdog was
certified fresh and I'm grateful, and but I but I
you know, I've got four A plus cinema scores and
that's that's from the audience, which I love. And at
the end of the day, what we say is it
is not about us. It's about the people in the
seats and the experience they're having with the content, and
that's it, and we are there. It is such an
(31:06):
incredible thing to me to think that people are going
to enter a theater or gather around a television set
and they're going to watch something that I made instead
of something that James Cameron or George Lukisman or whoever.
And so you try to honor that and at the
very first goal is to relentlessly entertain the audience.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
In multiple languages across the world, across the whole world.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
And so that's the quest. And so as great as it.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Is to be celebrated in any other form or to
any other group by like critics, Yeah, my relationship is
with the audience first and foremost.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Tell me about Michael Iskander, who is your David?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Is incredible?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Now? I saw him in Kimberly a Kimbo on broad
his son in New York. And when I saw the
picture them.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I said, where do I know this kid from that? Look?
How did you find him?
Speaker 1 (31:51):
What was the here's a better question, what's the quality
in him that you needed in your David?
Speaker 3 (31:56):
You know, it really comes down to one word, and
that word conviction.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
A conviction. But okay, also that but I needed.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
I needed a depth of soul, I needed a gravitas,
and I needed a conviction in his eyes. And I
had the privilege of directing Jonathan Roumy, who obviously the
plased Christ for Dallas and the Chosen and just understanding
the depth of soul and conviction that Jonathan had that
really was the what I was looking for. But then
also you think about the practicality of the role. It's
like a bullseye with and a bulls eye. I had
to have a musician, I had to have an athlete.
(32:26):
I had to have somebody that that that looked, that
was from the region, that that that had that that favored.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
He's an Egyptian, right, He's an Egyptian, And so I
felt proud of that.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
By the way, yesterday I got he and Jonathan Rumy
together for a one on one interview, and I'm like,
they look they look like family.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
I mean fourteen generations, but they look like family.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
And and so I, uh so, we looked at thousands
of people for House of David.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
We looked hundreds of people for the role of David itself.
And and his audition came.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
In, and you know those moments that you just know,
you just like the ten seconds into his audition, I'm like,
having looked at hundreds of people, that's him.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
So I got on a flight a red eye that night.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
And I said, I want to have breakfast with him,
and I want you know, we were thinking about thirty
minutes to talk about the role. We talked about life
and just cameras and all kinds of for three hours Wow,
And I said, I'm not supposed to tell you this
because you never say this because it gives agents leverage.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
This is your role.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
I really do believe that I've got this is also
an Amazon Global original. I've got a lot of people
to on board. So what I need you to do
is just do the work at every level. Do the work,
and at every level. He has outworked and out learned,
whether it was the accent or whether it was the
slinging stone or the lyre or the music that he
(33:49):
sings live in the show.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
And Hebrew, which was his idea. You know, I could not.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
I feel like a coach that is so proud of
an athlete that is becoming a super star right in
front of you.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
So I remember the third day of filming.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
I think he came over and he's like, except for
Kimberly Kimbo. He's like, that was good, right, was that
what you wanted? I'm like yeah, he's like, because he's.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Like, I know, you know this, man, this is my
first job, and I just want to do a good job.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
So he has this great sensibility about it, but also
a depth of soul that is far beyond his years.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
What do you want people to wrestle with.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I think most filmmakers want audiences to wrestle with something
in the story they're telling.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yeah, this is such an epic. What do you want
audiences to wrestle?
Speaker 3 (34:29):
I mean, I want people to wrestle and with the
idea that we have a destiny.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Beyond the life we're living.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Typically like, there is something, there's a whisper that that
that that is, that is that is scary, that is
far beyond your comfort zone.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
That that's the great adventure. I like that.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
You know, obviously we're working with Amazon, the show and
Jeff Bezos, and you can live a life, but I
agree with this quote. You can live a life of
you can live a life of ease, or you can
live a life of service or adventure.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
But you can't do both.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
And and so you know, the idea of David stepping
beyond his fear is stepping into his destiny and all
that came with that, which a big theme of the
show is the cost of destiny.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
There is a cost. Do you feel you've done that here?
Speaker 3 (35:13):
But this project, I feel like, you know, I was
talking to John Gun about this. We jumped into television. Man,
this wasn't like we didn't do like network television or Hallmark,
or we just jumped in went deep in historical epic.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Why not?
Speaker 3 (35:28):
So I do think that there's a there's a great
joy into jumping into something that is far beyond your
comfort zone or far beyond what you know how to do.
And it's like jumping out of an airplane with the
components of a parachute, you know, and just assembling them
on the way down. I'll figure this out, but I'm
telling you I learned way back working with Alex Kendrick
on the movie Courageous, Like there's no greater feeling vocationally
(35:49):
than when you unify your craft or with with a
life's calling and a life's purpose and suddenly you're doing
something that you're trying to get better at, but you're
doing it for a purpose beyond yourself. That's a magical thing,
and but it's often a scary thing. And I think
the most meaningful moments in my career have been when
I've jumped off the ledge of my comfort zone until endeavor. Yeah,
(36:12):
and uh, And I think that that is the that
is the hero's journey, and I think we all have
a hero's journey to live and uh, and I think
our fear keeps us from living that hero's journey. So
I hope that people watch the series. I hope people
watch the series and read the psalms because they're so relatable.
But then I hope they asked the question, Okay, what
am I supposed to do?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Like? What what?
Speaker 3 (36:32):
What is that inner voice telling me to go do?
That might be scary and beyond my comfort zone.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Okay, but these are real quick question because I know
you've got to go and you've done it, and you've
got many more.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
People a great conversation.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Roy I ask everybody these are royal. It's my royal
grande questions.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
Okay, this is the what was the them? What's the
interga James?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I won't ask you that the person you most.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Admire, who is the person I most admire?
Speaker 3 (37:04):
You know, I would say that I admire many, many
people like I love a great biography, and I love
to learn from.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
The stories of others.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
So of course, you know, I think right now, in
the moment that I'm in, I would say David. Probably
six months from now, when I'm directing this movie, I
would say.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
George Washington but Washington.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah, but there's something about about gleaning from other people's stories,
and a lot of that is whatever story I'm presently telling,
or maybe a book I've read, but I'm fully immersed
in the story of David right now. What is your
best feature, my pest feature? You know, probably you know,
(37:45):
I'll tell you this. This is the under celebrated virtue, Okay, curiosity.
I think if you can combine curiosity with pain tolerance,
there is not much that you can't achieve if you
can just be constantly learning.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
And so I think I live I.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Live my life curious a level of curiosity and learning
all the time. And I think when that is met
with a level of determination, there is there are a
few things that you can't achieve.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
What's your worst feature?
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Oh, my gosh, my worst feature is probably just the
uncontrollable personality of the artist.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Like if you're like, I'm a I'm an ADHD nightmare.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
But my my biggest battles are within not my biggest
battles are with myself. Sometimes I feel like I'm I'm
I'm the greatest villain to my own story, you know,
And uh, And that's I think one of the reasons
why I like telling stories, whether it's David or whether
it's Jesus Revolution. I like these stories of imperfect people
that are very flawed that God still uses because I.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Feel like I fit right in.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
We all do. Yeah, what is the thing you know
that authors don't know?
Speaker 3 (38:51):
I know, boy, that's a great question and a loaded question.
It is I know that it you know what I think.
The thing that I can most that would be most
helpful to people listening is I know that it just
takes longer than you think, in the sense that I
wanted to I first the spark of curiosity for David
happened when I was sixteen years old. The first script
(39:13):
I wrote for a movie on David was in twenty twelve.
And success is long obedience in the same direction. If
you genuinely feel like your call to do something, just
keep going. It's going to take a lot longer than
you think, and then you're going to get to this
breakthrough moment. And I think there's not a lot of
failures in terms of stories. There's just a lot of
(39:35):
incomplete stories in the sense of there's not a lot
of bad films, there's just unfinished films. Sometimes we say,
and I think sometimes people give up and you never
know when that breakthrough moment where the fog clears was
right around the corner, and you stop too early, and
you stop too early. So if I can give any
advice to anybody is if you really feel like you're
supposed to do something, as long as you're learning, as
(39:56):
long as you're curious, don't give up. You just never
know when that moment is right around the court.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Final question, what happens when this is over? Oh, man,
I take a nap.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
I think is But I'll tell you what I really
dream of, and this is the dream of the under project.
Is you think about the most profound outcome that could
come from all this. Somebody should make a documentary sometime
of the twenty five year mayhem that has led to
Fate film and the reemergence of this type content and
the yahoos that God has.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Used to do it.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
But my hope the outcome that I would be most
like this made the journey worth it is. If you
watch the House of David Traylor, the first title card
that comes up is the MGM logo LEO the lionis
is one hundred years of entertainment. My hope is that
a lot of these successes for movies and television can
coalesce into an institution that can last one hundred years
(40:51):
and really allow us to tell these stories on a
global scale long after I'm not able. So I joke
around that I'd love to see a student last one
hundred years. I'd love to get it halfway. If Clint
Easwood can do it, I can do it, you know.
But the idea is that that would be a transcendent outcome.
That my hope and prayer and strong belief is that
(41:14):
there's now this group of creatives and we're willing each
other on to success. We're competing in the best sense
of the word, just trying to one up each other.
Like you know, I remember seeing every version of Dallas
Jenkins scene of Walking on the Water. I was shooting
the Jesus Revolution moved with the keys his DP, so
we were looking at every version on a Keith's phone
and I was called Dallason and but that was it's
(41:35):
a I feel that that's the best version of the
Walking on the Water that I've ever seen. It was
so well done, and that just makes me want to
like one up in with.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
David and Goliath. I'm like, wait till you see David Goliath.
But that's happening.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
And my hope is that the work that we're doing
as a group of friends and partners and collaborators right
now will sort of break the dam, as it were,
will allow creatives to come behind us and have their
voices heard, and that would be the most inspiring goal.
And to have any role in something that's emerging right
in front of you, like is a privilege. And to
(42:09):
bleed on the bleeding edge, to be in the arena
at all is a great privilege.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Well, John, I was not lost on me. Leo the
Lion opened the movie and David confronts Leo in the movie.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
But I'm what happened? Isn't that amazing?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
I just think that was actually one of the things
that that you know, you know, Samuel says to David
in the show, Uh, you know, God doesn't look on
the outward appearance. He looks in the heart. That's what's
in the Bible. And then we add and you have
the heart of a lion, you know, And what a
lions do?
Speaker 2 (42:37):
They roar? He tells him.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
And h and so the fact that the trailer opens
with the Lion. mGy is a good omen.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
I think it's great, great interview. We could have talked
for hours.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Okay, here's the whole house of David is on Amazon
Prime and it's worth watching with your family. But after
I spoke to John, I thought, why was David able
to whip Goliath so badly? Well, like every small person
who takes on a big entity, or a tiny hero
who takes on a huge villain, he flipped the script
on Goliath. The Philistine warrior thought he was fighting a
(43:12):
conventional enemy with swords and shields, a battle of strength,
But David brought a stone to the knife fight. His
surprising ingenuity, leaning into his own strength, gave him the victory.
He also had unflinching faith, a tested faith. At one point,
he says, the Lord has delivered me out of the
(43:34):
paw of the lion and out of the paw of
the bear. He will deliver me out of the hand
of this philistine. That determined faith, coupled with ingenuity made
him a hero. And the thing John said about jumping
off the edge of your comfort zone with faith, that
really is the hero's journey. I'm going to share the
(43:55):
story of some personal heroes in the weeks ahead. I
hope you won't miss that mother Angelica and a father
son team that we just interviewed that is so inspiring.
Moving anyway, I hope you'll come back to Arroyo Grande soon.
Why live a dry, narrow, constricted life when if you
fill it with good things, it can flow into a broad,
(44:17):
thriving Arroyo Grande. I'm riding the Arroyo. Make sure you
subscribe and like this episode. Thank you for diving in,
and we'll see you next time. Arroyo Grande is produced
in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and Divine Providence Studios, and
is available on YouTube, the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
Is there anything you learned about David after going through this?
I mean, I know you're still in it.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
You're versed in this world.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
It's not until you dramatize the events that you realize, Oh,
he never had to write any of this stuff, and
the fact that he did is a huge part of
what makes him relatable and great. And so it just
reminds me of like God can use it all. And
I think that that is the hero's journey. And I
think we all have a hero's journey to live, and
(00:26):
I think our fear keeps us from living that hero's journey.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm Raven Arroyo. Welcome to Arroyo Grande. All of us
want to live a hero's journey, but how do you
do that? The hero's journey is really derived from that
story of David and Goliath in the West. Every classic
story proceeds from there. Henry the Fifth facing the French,
Peter Pan versus Hook, and you versus whoever you're fighting.
(01:01):
This week, director John Irwin has created an epic new series,
The House of David, covering the life of King David
on Amazon Prime. And they'll tell us in moments how
he discovered the hero's journey in his own life and
how you can too. By the way, go subscribe to
the show right now, Go to YouTube or wherever you
get your podcast. Turn on notifications. I don't want you
(01:23):
missing an episode. Okay, first, a little free flow. I
was thinking about heroes this week. What makes a hero?
Certainly not spandex and a cape, I mean military veterans
come to mind. There are political heroes and of course
Madam Webb, though that's barely a hero. And to me,
heroes are the people who fulfill their duty and don't
(01:44):
yearn for credit. There was a story this week that
I'll bet most of you missed. You remember the Matrix
series actress Carrie Ann Moss. She played Trinity opposite Keanu
Reeves in all of those films. She told The Independent
quote after the Matrix was such a big deal. I
took a big, big break to have children and to
(02:05):
be with them now. It's easy to make that kind
of decision when nothing's happening, But when big, worldly offers
are being thrust upon you, it's hard to turn away.
It's like Lizo at an ozempic house party, hard to
turn away, Like Blake Lively at her lawyer's office. Let's
file one more complaint against that Baldoni guy. Very hard
to turn away. The truth is, I can tell you
(02:27):
there is no more heroic path than starting a family
and nourishing the young lives and trusted to you, you
can't do more important work. Well, how do you know that, Raymond?
I do have three grown kids, and I know it
because I've lived with one of those heroes for thirty years.
My wife gave up her career to be fully present
to our kids, and now they're grown. Her investment is obvious.
(02:52):
If you want to know why society is in trouble,
why illiteracy is on the rise, why kids are less connected,
less communicative, today, take me to the homes of those kids,
and I'll show you the reason. Time spent with parents.
It is hugely determinative in the life of a child.
The Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, in a twenty
(03:14):
fourteen study, found that an attached parent helped kids regulate
their emotions and form healthy relationships later in life. The
National Institute of Health and Human Development tracked kids from
birth to adolescents. Guess what, The kids with more involved
parents were less likely to engage in drug use. Or
skip school, and an engaged parent affects a child's ability
(03:38):
to read, healthy outcomes, empathy, and so much more time
spent with parents, Heroic moms and dads who take the
time not only to make a new life, but love
that life enough to show up and raise it. Well,
it's hugely important. Carrie Anne Moss said something else here.
I want you to listen to this. She said, I
(03:59):
remember were being torn, having a little twinge like, gosh,
I'm getting offered such great things, that would be such
a huge deal. And I was holding my baby in
my arms, thinking at the end of my life, will
it matter to me that I have another movie on
my resume or will it matter to me that I
held my baby? I instantly thought, no, it was a
(04:22):
no brainer, and I'm so glad I did that. I'm
so glad I don't have that regret. Boy, is that
a loaded sentence. Listen to that. There are so many
parents I know, and when you're a parent looking back,
you can say that sort of thing. It's hard to
resist the allure of the world, and those allurements are
(04:42):
a hell of a lot easier than walking the floors
at night. Doctor visits up, parent teachers conferences, weekend practices.
That is hard work working out of the home a
heck of a lot easier with breaks and vacation time.
Moss is right, at the end of your life, no
one will care about another movie on your resume, but
(05:03):
your kids might, especially if no one was there for them.
I've met so many people who have regrets. Incredible careers, fame,
all the attention, but they're riddled with regrets. The hero's
path is not the easy or the glitzy one, but
the sacrificial one, and it's the most long lasting because
you are literally shaping the future of your own family
(05:26):
and countless others. How many alleged heroes can say that.
There's a movie opening this weekend that desperately wants to
cash in on its venerable heritage while running from it.
It's the live action snow White, and it has more
identity problems than a malfunctioning magic mirror. Rachel Zegler, who
(05:49):
plays snow White in the movie, is a Latina, and
she said years ago that she's playing the role as
a Latina princess. The new movie explains snow White's name
away by mentioning that the lead character survived a snowstorm.
I'm glad it wasn't a power failure. But with this
new backstory, we are suddenly in an entirely new fairy tale,
(06:12):
and it's neither the Brothers Grims nor Disney's Why not
just tell a story with a Latina heroin? Was the
Encountrascript not available? Surely Lynn Manuel Miranda could append a
new song or two.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Or did they.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Fear that no one would come to a live action
version of that movie? I guess it's easier to sell
snow White the brand since it goes back to nineteen
thirty seven, even as the filmmakers try to escape What
made the story so compelling and enduring? What do kids
love about the original movie? What is it the dwarves, sleepy, dopey,
(06:49):
Doc and Tito? Well, this new live action version originally
featured snow White and the Seven Multicultural People, a diverse
collection of actors living in the woods together. I guess
whatever it took to get away from mentioning those dwarves.
But following an angry reaction from the public and protests
from actors who were members of the Dwarfism community, Disney backtracked.
(07:14):
They opted for CGI dwarves and they're animated in a
live action movie. Hi Ho, Hi ho. We're still faith
you know. But don't worry. The dwarves are still not
referenced in the title. Just Noo White or Blanca Nieves
or whoever the character is now. Rachel Zegler ran into
(07:34):
trouble when she gave her gen z opinion of the musty,
outdated character that she was contracted by Disney to play
a few years ago.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Watch this. It's no longer nineteen thirty seven. That is
not going to be vived by the Prince. He's not
going to be.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Saved for the Prince.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
And she's not going to be dreaming about true love.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
She's dreaming about becoming the leader she knows she can be.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So if she's not dreaming of true love and she's
not going to be saved by the prince, why the
hell are they doing a live action movie called Disney's
snow White. It's a double lie. The story does not
conform to the Disney masterpiece. And you have a new
character called snow White who bears no trace of the
brothers grim snow White except for the costume that was Disney's.
(08:18):
And since the Prince isn't going to savor. They've cut
that old Someday My Prince will Come song, replacing it
with something called waiting on a Wish. Like most people,
I'll be waiting for the credits, or maybe for a refund.
The movie is expected to be one of the worst
openings for Disney this year. And as I've said many times,
(08:39):
when the main plot point is that the evil Queen
is jealous because snow White is the fairest of them all,
it's best not to cast wonder Woman as that envious queen.
You may as well invert the whole storyline and have
snow White try to kill the knockout queen, because Galgadot
is definitely the fairest of this duo, and it's pain
(09:00):
fully obvious to anyone watching that magic Mirror is lying
to your Gal. Go get a refund. The other day,
Disney hosted a scaled back premiere, trying to cut their
losses by keeping the press off the red carpet. They
didn't want bothersome media asking the stars uncomfortable questions like
why did you destroy the storyline and why do you
(09:21):
hate half the audience? Zegler made some political comments earlier
this year, saying that half of America should have no
peace go figure. So they staged these painful shots of
little girls dressed as snow White meeting with the stars
while the Disney cameras recorded the forced cuteness. It all
went down like a poisoned apple. I love the pr
(09:44):
lady during her own rendition of the evil Queen, barking
out orders to the kids and Zegler here, look, Disney
needs to retire this whole live action routine. Whether The
Lion King, Pinocchio, Beauty and the Beast, these live action
movies are mostly CGI, which is digital animation with a
(10:07):
handful of actors in front of green screens. With the
unmatchable original animated classic, this new film feels like the others,
another money grabbed by a company that has run out
of ideas. The live action snow White belongs not in
a cineplex but in a nice, contemporary glass coffin. And
(10:28):
let's hope Zegler is right and no print shows up
to save this snow Show. Now to our deep dive.
John Irwin is the director and producer responsible for films
like I Can Only Imagine, Jesus Revolution and American Underdog.
His latest project is House of David and epicrytelling of
(10:49):
King David's life. It's been topping the viewing charts at
Amazon Prime. And I talked to him about the series
and how he found the hero's journey in his own life.
Here's John over One. Tell me how being a cameraman
in Birmingham.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I lived at Birmingham, Alabama. I know it well.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
And I also know the red wave obsession will Auburn,
the Auburn Alabama thing, which I'm not getting into.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Roletide. I know you're a boy, true.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
True, How did that? Your father was also a broadcaster.
But tell me about how being homeschooled. Yeah, and a
cameraman for sports.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Events trained you for this. Well.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
The reason I say rollside is because when I was
fifteen years old at the University of Alabama, which I
lived about forty five minutes away from, a cameraman got
sick about three hours before the kickoff to a game
and I was apprenticing for a cameraman in my church
Carriers Tripod and he called me and he said, get
(11:48):
over here right now. Don't tell anybody you've never done
this before. But I told him I knew a guy,
they're desperate, get over here right now. And that was
my way into Filmington. And I had the time of
my life. I was a homeschooled kid, and I had
never even seen a camera that big. I could zoom
into a quarter of the moon. So I'm just zooming
the camera in and.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Out of the moon.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
I don't know what they were thinking of in the
truck and I and I legitimately had the time of
my life and knew that I had sort of met
my my career obsession. And and you know, I had
the great privilege of a year later, my dad bought
me a camera with money he didn't quite have.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
We went to Israel with.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
A camera I had no idea how to use to
do a little walk and talk documentary, and these stories
just came to life in a whole new way.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
It was my first time to really travel internationally.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
And when you're when you're in the States, you don't
realize that, you know, the America is an experiment, and
it's relatively young on the on the global stage. And
so when you go to a place like Jerusalem, right
you just feel the energy of thousands of years of
story and and I felt that, and I went to
King David's tomb, and the obsession with what would become
(12:56):
House of David started right there.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
But what I had was the ability.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
And what I would recommend to anyone is is uh.
You know, Malcolm Gladwell calls it the ten thousand hour
rule of just the time it takes to hone your
craft and celebrating that time of learning and and.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
UH and learning to do what you do.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
And I was, I just had the privilege of starting
that journey very very early.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And H and I'm grateful. And what was your father's influence.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
I mean, he was a broadcaster, broadcaster, he was a
radio host it and then a two time state senator at Alabama.
But he was a fifty thousand watt station called WDJC.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
He was in talk radio.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
So before I was ten years old, I would I
was sitting behind a mixer at his radio station helping
and H and and he's you know what I love
about my dad first and foremost is he's a He's
a just a dreamer. And he said when he bought
me that camera, he said, dream bowld, dream big, dream
of the impossible.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
And sometimes you know, you just have to you.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Have to have the audacity to believe in what's possible.
And and I learned that from him, and I love
him and and he's he's our biggest fan and and
uh and in the beginning of my journey.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
And then and then you worked for a time with
Alex Kendrick Courageous.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
So I did. I.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
We were My brother and I were music video directors
at the time, and we were winning in Nashville.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
And you do a bunch of them. Yeah, I started
with my.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
W Smith and Amy Grant and uh and but it
was a it was a career at that point. And
I went to direct second unit on a movie for
Alex Kendrick Stephen and Alex, who are wonderful guys uh
called courageous. I went into help them with a camera
they wanted to use, called the Red One, and then
also to direct their action sequences. They were making movies
(14:40):
primarily with church volunteers.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
It was a real Cinderella story.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Well, they wanted to do a police drama with action
sequences evolving cars. You should never combine this ever with
church volunteers. People will die and I'll be a bummer
of a Sunday and so uh and so I went
in with a smaller team of professionals to do the
stunt work and action sequences in that movie.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
And Alex asked me, he.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Said, right off the bat, as Southern Baptist as he is,
he said, you know what's your purpose and the purpose
of your work? And I could not answer the question,
couldn't stop thinking about the question. So that was really
a moment where my career fused with a life's calling.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
And how did you answer it?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
He started, I mean, yeah, it's a great question of like,
I'm an entertainer first and foremost, that's my job, but
the idea to tell stories that that that could be
life changing to other people and to jump off the
cliff of instead of being like I joked around at
the time, I was like the Han Solo of Christianity,
like if you have a ship or if you if
(15:38):
you have money, I've got a ship off liue somewhere.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
The rest is your problem.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
And that led to to making independent films and raising
money for them, very scary transition, and and then you know,
each film built on the last, and then it was
I can only imagine was the breakout, and.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Then and Jesus Revolution and on and on and on
and you work with your brother Andrew. Yeah, what does
Andrew bring to the game.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
You know, it's a oh man, a lot. It's it's
it's a great question. And you know it started with
Andy and I as brothers, and then it's now grown
to this group of filmmakers, uh that you know. John Gunn,
who's here direct co directed this, has written. We we
co wrote five movies together, including Jesus Revolution and H
(16:22):
and obviously Dallas Jenkins with the Chosen. Brit McCorkle, who
co directed Jesus Revolution with me, is now co directing,
uh the sequel that I can only imagine with my
brother right now. So it's become this group of filmmakers
at this cool moment, unprecedented moment in time in our industry.
And Andy is He's great with the human element, as
(16:45):
is John Gunn. He's great with actors, He's great with
the emotion of a scene. And I'm I'm both a
writer and then also a very sort of technical filmmaker,
and so I think a lot of times, you know,
film at it's in its nature is it's a symphony
of art, and it's all these art forms bundled together.
So it really is collaborative at its heart, and when
(17:05):
you embrace that, you can do so much more than
you could ever do alone. And so that collaboration started
with Andy and I and has now grown out to
this group of filmmakers. It's a really cool moment.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
You've got all these Irwin adoptees.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Right, I don't know whose name would be on the
on the mask, but we've all done great work independently.
But when we do it together, there's just a magic
to what we can achieve.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
And so if you think.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
About you know, right now I'm busy making House of David.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
My brother's working on the sequel to to.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
I can only imagine Dallas Jenkins is going into the big,
the big season six of The Chosen, and it's just
amazing to see all that's happening. It really feels like
an unprecedented moment in an industry.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Tell me about David.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
David is obviously an archetype.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
For I know you're a big fan of the hero patology,
that's right.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, the hero's jury.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Which you know he went off the here and there,
but of course the core idea a good one. Tell
me how David is the archetype for that reliant and
the chos.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
I feel like David is the origin of the origin
stories in the sense that I love I'm a sucker
for Lord of the Rings Star Wars.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
One of George Lucas's.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Great influences when he made Star Wars was this book
Here with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. The concept
of that book is that there's these mythic archetypes that
are common in a bunch of stories. I've thought a
lot about why do we need these stories, these heroes, journeys,
these destiny stories.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Why do it?
Speaker 3 (18:34):
And I think it's we're wired to need a savior,
Like in our soul we are wired for a savior.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
And I think we're also wired to crave.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Purpose and meaning to life in a way that we
have a destiny and a role to play in something
meaningful that's bigger than we are.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
And I think that's why we're drawn to these stories.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
And so, which George Lucas credits the success of Star
Wars to a lot of the archetypes in Star Wars
are those mythic archetypes tapping into those And so if
you watch House of David, you know David himself. This
is the one of the original or one of the
original hero's journeys boy chosen to be king. And if
you look at like the Prophet Samuel played by the
(19:18):
Great Stephen Lange, he's very much in the Gandolf.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
You know, it was an archetype thing. And he's even got.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
The beard, flowing white rocks, and the routine and the
sword play, which I don't want to ruin for.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Any of you, but it's all there. It's all there.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
And so if you love these type of stories, I
think whether or not you really know much of the
Bible or not, I think a lot of people know
the term David and Goliath as synonymous with the underdog,
but they don't know the story. And so I think
you'll find it very familiar. Even if you don't know
anything about the story.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
That's kind of the backstory that you didn't know, the origin,
stuff you've forgotten about or didn't never knew.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Correct, tell me what Drew.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
John Irwin to this David character. He's a complex character character.
You know, the boy David's an easy one.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Embrace some love. Yeah, he becomes king.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I think that's you know, well, here's what I find
interesting about it. There's a line where Stephen Lang says
to Michael in the series Your who plays David.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
He says, you.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Know, there's great passions that rage in you, and you're
this will be your blessing and this will be your
curse and basically the greatest war will be within So David,
I find these personalities that can accomplish great things. They
are equal into the mistakes that they can make. You know,
and this is trapped and in a person. So I,
(20:36):
as a filmmaker, I find that very interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Why is this David different?
Speaker 1 (20:42):
And why should people care about a king that lived
thousands of dollars of years ago.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
We know what's interesting is they say, first of all,
the stories are relatable and incredible.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
There's a reason I tell the story.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
I remember when Amazon executives first read the scripts, They're like,
these scripts are really good.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I'm like, it's based off a best seller. You should
check it out.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
And so there's a reason that these stories echo through
time and the idea the timelessness of this person's one
of my favorite bands for King and Country. They just
did a cover of the U two song Psalm forty
year old song three thousand year old lyrics, and it
just shows you how enduring this character. You know, one
(21:27):
of the most famous kings who ever lived. His one
square mile city Jerusalem has has defined much of human history.
We count time by events that happen in that region,
and I think that the story is just incredibly relatable
and epic in every way. And the thing I find
(21:48):
most about that I was probably drawn to is the
authenticity and honesty of the Psalms. Like history is written
by the victor. David was a king. We never had
to know about his mistakes, he could have cleansed his
never had to know that Bathsheba was your eyes wife.
And the fact that this king was writing these authentically
(22:09):
honest human songs and saying sing this to.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
The people is unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
And I think it's his quest for the heart of
God that I find most interesting.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Despite his flaws. I think the further you go in life,
you know, you.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Just make mistakes and you and I think so many
of us identify with the idea that either I'm I'm
unqualified to serve God because I'm not good enough, or
I'm disqualified because it's something that I've done. Like we
wrestle with those things. I know, those are relatable to me,
and I love telling the story of this person who
made some epic accomplishments and epic blunders, but found his
(22:45):
way back to God every time and kept singing through
it all.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
What people don't realize I was in the theater before this,
and when you play a role, when you're immersed in
a character that existed like this, you usually learn something
from them that you did nix you didn't see at
first reading or even after an obsession. Is there anything
you learned about David after going through this? I mean,
I know you're still in it. You're a worst in
(23:08):
this world.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
I think the idea of his almost fearless honesty.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Is the reason why.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
I mean, only about fifteen percent of the psalms are
God is great and life is great. The rest are
I am struggling, you know, help me? And the range
of human emotions are represented in this person's writings, and
I think it's not until you dramatize the events that
you realize, Oh, he never had to write any of
(23:40):
this stuff, and the fact that he did is a
huge part of what makes him.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Relatable and great.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
And so it just reminds me of like God can
use it all. You know, Solomon, who dedicated to always
see the bookkends out of the whole saga. If I
were to be able to tell the whole saga of
these two you know kids basically teenagers crying out to God,
one obscure in the hills of Bethlehem, the other on
the Temple mount, you know, doing what his father couldn't
(24:09):
do and beckoning God to earth at the Temple. And
and and you know, Solomon was best Shiva's son, son
of David's worst mistake. And yet God can use it
all and redeem it all. And David kept singing through
it all. And that is a lesson for me.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
You know, what's the difference between doing and I know,
there's a big difference between doing a feature, oh man,
and doing this television full immersion. And I imagine you
want to go through the whole saga. I mean, it
is the house of David, not the child Again, I I.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
The power of our unified voice as believers is what
affords us this moment to do an Amazon Prime Global
original and have creative control. And so my hope is
that the series does well enough that we can tell
the whole story, because which would be a multi season
epic that we've already mapped out. But I think that
television is my first first foray into television.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
You know, I do future films.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
It is I would say five times the work, but
probably ten times is fulfilling. Like it's just the amount
of story that you can tell is so unbelievable. It's
also tons of work. But I think that's the reason
why there's not been a definitive David movie. It's too
his life is an odyssey. It's too much story to
be crammed into a movie. This is the treatment the
(25:23):
story deserves, I think, which is a is a you know,
hours and hours of exploration keeping epic.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I mean, this is big and very intimate.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I mean, you a full That's.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Why I wanted that. I'm glad you said that.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
I that's why I wanted to partner with John Gunn
primarily on the project, because he's so human in his storytelling,
and he strived for that level of authenticity.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I love scope and scale, so I.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Sort of wanted that fusion and the balance, and it is.
It's it's epic, authentic, intimate stories and and and it's
everything I love about a great TV series, or you know,
it's really a love letter to like the original Fellowship
of the Ring movie in the way they made it
and they went out on the land and did it
for real and or braveheart, I think, and so like
(26:07):
an older.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Way of making it.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
I'm glad you brought I was going to ask you
this later. What's the contribution of Mel Gibson in this
faith space opening this up and kind of setting the benchmark.
You know, I did the first interview on the set
of The Passion you were.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Seeing a rough.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
With three thousand pastors in Florida and being just blown away.
I think Mel is one of the great masters of
the craft of film masters. Any interaction I've had with him,
he will talk your ear off about the craft of film,
and I find it to be immediately applicable and deeply helpful.
(26:47):
And I find him to be one of the most candid,
authentic creators I've ever had the privilege of interacting with.
And I think The Passion is one of the great
works of art in the in the history of our business,
and the leap he took for that movie was an
extraordinary act of faith. And what do they say if
you stand on the shoulders if you see clearly, you
(27:07):
stand on the shoulders of giants. One of these I
love about film history overall is it's like layer upon
layer upon layer of filmmaker reacting to another filmmaker's work,
or given an opportunity because of the success of another filmmaker.
And I just I love his movies, and I love
it the most when he partners with Randa Wallace, which
(27:28):
is another wonderful friend, wonderful.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Writer and director, and I.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Am in their wake and in their shadow and grateful
to be doing any of this and would not be
here without the success.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Why did it take Hollywood all this time? That was
twenty years ago, the past? Yeah, he opened up this
enormous audience. I mean hundreds of millions of dollars that
movie made. Why Why did Holly Wood not jump on
the bandwagon and just say look at this audience.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
It's taken all this time.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
The Wonder Project, YEA, Well, that's the goal and dream
of the Wonder Project is an independent studio that could
endure the test of time.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
To solve that problem.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
I think the core problem is we call it the gap,
and it's a gap between the craft and of filmmaking
and the authenticity of the audience the content. So you typically,
except for Mel Gibson, and I think he made the passion,
then he wanted to.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Go and do other things.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
You know, Thank god he didn't want to do David,
because I wouldn't be here. But you know, I think
that that that other than Mel, you get this thing
of you either get things that are authentic to the
audience but poorly made, or you get things that are
very well made but inauthentic and in some ways of
betrayal to the audience exactly. And so there's been this
gap that we've been trying to close where you, on
(28:49):
the one hand, can make the content excellent but also authentic.
And that has been a problem really that there just
has not been enough Christians inside the industry that are
that are trying to discipline themselves and master the craft
film as much as they can. And that's a lifelong quest.
That's something that you'll ever far achieve. Art has built
(29:09):
over time. But I would say that you know, for me,
David is sort of like the Mount Everest of storytelling,
and it took all the films that I've made to
try to work up to a level of craftsmanship that
I think the story deserved.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
It's not that it's perfect, but I.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Think that that that I should have done this story
five years ago or ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
It took that much time.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
I said, exhausted you more than your thought. Oh yeah,
I would say that. But it's a great exhaustion. I
mean that there's nothing like, you know, being exhausted on
the field battle and a worthy cause, you know, And
so it's a meaningful exhaustion which I find less than.
I would rather be thoroughly exhausted in something that I
believe in than sort of tired in something mediocre.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
There was a great quote I came across from you
that I just loved it, where you mentioned Walt Disney. Yeah,
and I bet you can come up with a quote.
But it was trying to entertain the critics.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I'd rather take take my chances with the people. I mean,
first of I love that.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Was the king of quotes and uh and one of
the great entertainers in the history of entertainment obviously, and
one of the great inspirations. And he was not only
a great creator, he was a great entrepreneur and so
much of the the inventions of technology that drive our
industry came from the Walt Disney Company back to like
the multiplaying camera that iworks made for him. But I
(30:29):
loved his perspective on the audience and and some of
the you know, he had the way of of of
distilling things down to a line, and oftentimes I just
want to make sure, like am I serving and entertaining
the right group of people.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Of course I love it if there's a.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Good critic review or when you know, American Underdog was
certified fresh and I'm grateful, and but I but I
you know, I've got four A plus cinema scores and
that's that's from the audience, which I love. And at
the end of the day, what we say is it
is not about us. It's about the people in the
seats and the experience they're having with the content, and
that's it, and we are there. It is such an
(31:06):
incredible thing to me to think that people are going
to enter a theater or gather around a television set
and they're going to watch something that I made instead
of something that James Cameron or George Lukisman or whoever.
And so you try to honor that and at the
very first goal is to relentlessly entertain the audience.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
In multiple languages across the world, across the whole world.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
And so that's the quest. And so as great as it.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Is to be celebrated in any other form or to
any other group by like critics, Yeah, my relationship is
with the audience first and foremost.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Tell me about Michael Iskander, who is your David?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Is incredible?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Now? I saw him in Kimberly a Kimbo on broad
his son in New York. And when I saw the
picture them.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I said, where do I know this kid from that? Look?
How did you find him?
Speaker 1 (31:51):
What was the here's a better question, what's the quality
in him that you needed in your David?
Speaker 3 (31:56):
You know, it really comes down to one word, and
that word conviction.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
A conviction. But okay, also that but I needed.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
I needed a depth of soul, I needed a gravitas,
and I needed a conviction in his eyes. And I
had the privilege of directing Jonathan Roumy, who obviously the
plased Christ for Dallas and the Chosen and just understanding
the depth of soul and conviction that Jonathan had that
really was the what I was looking for. But then
also you think about the practicality of the role. It's
like a bullseye with and a bulls eye. I had
to have a musician, I had to have an athlete.
(32:26):
I had to have somebody that that that looked, that
was from the region, that that that had that that favored.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
He's an Egyptian, right, He's an Egyptian, And so I
felt proud of that.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
By the way, yesterday I got he and Jonathan Rumy
together for a one on one interview, and I'm like,
they look they look like family.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
I mean fourteen generations, but they look like family.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
And and so I, uh so, we looked at thousands
of people for House of David.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
We looked hundreds of people for the role of David itself.
And and his audition came.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
In, and you know those moments that you just know,
you just like the ten seconds into his audition, I'm like,
having looked at hundreds of people, that's him.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
So I got on a flight a red eye that night.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
And I said, I want to have breakfast with him,
and I want you know, we were thinking about thirty
minutes to talk about the role. We talked about life
and just cameras and all kinds of for three hours Wow,
And I said, I'm not supposed to tell you this
because you never say this because it gives agents leverage.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
This is your role.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
I really do believe that I've got this is also
an Amazon Global original. I've got a lot of people
to on board. So what I need you to do
is just do the work at every level. Do the work,
and at every level. He has outworked and out learned,
whether it was the accent or whether it was the
slinging stone or the lyre or the music that he
(33:49):
sings live in the show.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
And Hebrew, which was his idea. You know, I could not.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
I feel like a coach that is so proud of
an athlete that is becoming a super star right in
front of you.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
So I remember the third day of filming.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
I think he came over and he's like, except for
Kimberly Kimbo. He's like, that was good, right, was that
what you wanted? I'm like yeah, he's like, because he's.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Like, I know, you know this, man, this is my
first job, and I just want to do a good job.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
So he has this great sensibility about it, but also
a depth of soul that is far beyond his years.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
What do you want people to wrestle with.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I think most filmmakers want audiences to wrestle with something
in the story they're telling.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yeah, this is such an epic. What do you want
audiences to wrestle?
Speaker 3 (34:29):
I mean, I want people to wrestle and with the
idea that we have a destiny.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Beyond the life we're living.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Typically like, there is something, there's a whisper that that
that that is, that is that is scary, that is
far beyond your comfort zone.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
That that's the great adventure. I like that.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
You know, obviously we're working with Amazon, the show and
Jeff Bezos, and you can live a life, but I
agree with this quote. You can live a life of
you can live a life of ease, or you can
live a life of service or adventure.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
But you can't do both.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
And and so you know, the idea of David stepping
beyond his fear is stepping into his destiny and all
that came with that, which a big theme of the
show is the cost of destiny.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
There is a cost. Do you feel you've done that here?
Speaker 3 (35:13):
But this project, I feel like, you know, I was
talking to John Gun about this. We jumped into television. Man,
this wasn't like we didn't do like network television or Hallmark,
or we just jumped in went deep in historical epic.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Why not?
Speaker 3 (35:28):
So I do think that there's a there's a great
joy into jumping into something that is far beyond your
comfort zone or far beyond what you know how to do.
And it's like jumping out of an airplane with the
components of a parachute, you know, and just assembling them
on the way down. I'll figure this out, but I'm
telling you I learned way back working with Alex Kendrick
on the movie Courageous, Like there's no greater feeling vocationally
(35:49):
than when you unify your craft or with with a
life's calling and a life's purpose and suddenly you're doing
something that you're trying to get better at, but you're
doing it for a purpose beyond yourself. That's a magical thing,
and but it's often a scary thing. And I think
the most meaningful moments in my career have been when
I've jumped off the ledge of my comfort zone until endeavor. Yeah,
(36:12):
and uh, And I think that that is the that
is the hero's journey, and I think we all have
a hero's journey to live and uh, and I think
our fear keeps us from living that hero's journey. So
I hope that people watch the series. I hope people
watch the series and read the psalms because they're so relatable.
But then I hope they asked the question, Okay, what
am I supposed to do?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Like? What what?
Speaker 3 (36:32):
What is that inner voice telling me to go do?
That might be scary and beyond my comfort zone.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Okay, but these are real quick question because I know
you've got to go and you've done it, and you've
got many more.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
People a great conversation.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Roy I ask everybody these are royal. It's my royal
grande questions.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
Okay, this is the what was the them? What's the
interga James?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I won't ask you that the person you most.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Admire, who is the person I most admire?
Speaker 3 (37:04):
You know, I would say that I admire many, many
people like I love a great biography, and I love
to learn from.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
The stories of others.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
So of course, you know, I think right now, in
the moment that I'm in, I would say David. Probably
six months from now, when I'm directing this movie, I
would say.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
George Washington but Washington.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah, but there's something about about gleaning from other people's stories,
and a lot of that is whatever story I'm presently telling,
or maybe a book I've read, but I'm fully immersed
in the story of David right now. What is your
best feature, my pest feature? You know, probably you know,
(37:45):
I'll tell you this. This is the under celebrated virtue, Okay, curiosity.
I think if you can combine curiosity with pain tolerance,
there is not much that you can't achieve if you
can just be constantly learning.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
And so I think I live I.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Live my life curious a level of curiosity and learning
all the time. And I think when that is met
with a level of determination, there is there are a
few things that you can't achieve.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
What's your worst feature?
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Oh, my gosh, my worst feature is probably just the
uncontrollable personality of the artist.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Like if you're like, I'm a I'm an ADHD nightmare.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
But my my biggest battles are within not my biggest
battles are with myself. Sometimes I feel like I'm I'm
I'm the greatest villain to my own story, you know,
And uh, And that's I think one of the reasons
why I like telling stories, whether it's David or whether
it's Jesus Revolution. I like these stories of imperfect people
that are very flawed that God still uses because I.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Feel like I fit right in.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
We all do. Yeah, what is the thing you know
that authors don't know?
Speaker 3 (38:51):
I know, boy, that's a great question and a loaded question.
It is I know that it you know what I think.
The thing that I can most that would be most
helpful to people listening is I know that it just
takes longer than you think, in the sense that I
wanted to I first the spark of curiosity for David
happened when I was sixteen years old. The first script
(39:13):
I wrote for a movie on David was in twenty twelve.
And success is long obedience in the same direction. If
you genuinely feel like your call to do something, just
keep going. It's going to take a lot longer than
you think, and then you're going to get to this
breakthrough moment. And I think there's not a lot of
failures in terms of stories. There's just a lot of
(39:35):
incomplete stories in the sense of there's not a lot
of bad films, there's just unfinished films. Sometimes we say,
and I think sometimes people give up and you never
know when that breakthrough moment where the fog clears was
right around the corner, and you stop too early, and
you stop too early. So if I can give any
advice to anybody is if you really feel like you're
supposed to do something, as long as you're learning, as
(39:56):
long as you're curious, don't give up. You just never
know when that moment is right around the court.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Final question, what happens when this is over? Oh, man,
I take a nap.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
I think is But I'll tell you what I really
dream of, and this is the dream of the under project.
Is you think about the most profound outcome that could
come from all this. Somebody should make a documentary sometime
of the twenty five year mayhem that has led to
Fate film and the reemergence of this type content and
the yahoos that God has.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Used to do it.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
But my hope the outcome that I would be most
like this made the journey worth it is. If you
watch the House of David Traylor, the first title card
that comes up is the MGM logo LEO the lionis
is one hundred years of entertainment. My hope is that
a lot of these successes for movies and television can
coalesce into an institution that can last one hundred years
(40:51):
and really allow us to tell these stories on a
global scale long after I'm not able. So I joke
around that I'd love to see a student last one
hundred years. I'd love to get it halfway. If Clint
Easwood can do it, I can do it, you know.
But the idea is that that would be a transcendent outcome.
That my hope and prayer and strong belief is that
(41:14):
there's now this group of creatives and we're willing each
other on to success. We're competing in the best sense
of the word, just trying to one up each other.
Like you know, I remember seeing every version of Dallas
Jenkins scene of Walking on the Water. I was shooting
the Jesus Revolution moved with the keys his DP, so
we were looking at every version on a Keith's phone
and I was called Dallason and but that was it's
(41:35):
a I feel that that's the best version of the
Walking on the Water that I've ever seen. It was
so well done, and that just makes me want to
like one up in with.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
David and Goliath. I'm like, wait till you see David Goliath.
But that's happening.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
And my hope is that the work that we're doing
as a group of friends and partners and collaborators right
now will sort of break the dam, as it were,
will allow creatives to come behind us and have their
voices heard, and that would be the most inspiring goal.
And to have any role in something that's emerging right
in front of you, like is a privilege. And to
(42:09):
bleed on the bleeding edge, to be in the arena
at all is a great privilege.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Well, John, I was not lost on me. Leo the
Lion opened the movie and David confronts Leo in the movie.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
But I'm what happened? Isn't that amazing?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
I just think that was actually one of the things
that that you know, you know, Samuel says to David
in the show, Uh, you know, God doesn't look on
the outward appearance. He looks in the heart. That's what's
in the Bible. And then we add and you have
the heart of a lion, you know, And what a
lions do?
Speaker 2 (42:37):
They roar? He tells him.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
And h and so the fact that the trailer opens
with the Lion. mGy is a good omen.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
I think it's great, great interview. We could have talked
for hours.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Okay, here's the whole house of David is on Amazon
Prime and it's worth watching with your family. But after
I spoke to John, I thought, why was David able
to whip Goliath so badly? Well, like every small person
who takes on a big entity, or a tiny hero
who takes on a huge villain, he flipped the script
on Goliath. The Philistine warrior thought he was fighting a
(43:12):
conventional enemy with swords and shields, a battle of strength,
But David brought a stone to the knife fight. His
surprising ingenuity, leaning into his own strength, gave him the victory.
He also had unflinching faith, a tested faith. At one point,
he says, the Lord has delivered me out of the
(43:34):
paw of the lion and out of the paw of
the bear. He will deliver me out of the hand
of this philistine. That determined faith, coupled with ingenuity made
him a hero. And the thing John said about jumping
off the edge of your comfort zone with faith, that
really is the hero's journey. I'm going to share the
(43:55):
story of some personal heroes in the weeks ahead. I
hope you won't miss that mother Angelica and a father
son team that we just interviewed that is so inspiring.
Moving anyway, I hope you'll come back to Arroyo Grande soon.
Why live a dry, narrow, constricted life when if you
fill it with good things, it can flow into a broad,
(44:17):
thriving Arroyo Grande. I'm riding the Arroyo. Make sure you
subscribe and like this episode. Thank you for diving in,
and we'll see you next time. Arroyo Grande is produced
in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and Divine Providence Studios, and
is available on YouTube, the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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