August 8, 2025 • 24 mins
Why are young Catholics flocking to the Traditional Latin Mass? In this powerful and deeply moving episode of The Prayerful Posse, Raymond Arroyo welcomes Cardinal Raymond Burke—on the 50th anniversary of his priesthood—for a candid and illuminating conversation about the beauty, reverence, and spiritual depth of the ancient Roman Rite.
Cardinal Burke explains how the Latin Mass offers a transcendent encounter with Christ, why facing East matters, and how sacred music like Gregorian chant roots us in centuries of worship. He shares personal stories, insights into Church tradition, and the growing hunger among the faithful—especially the youth—for something more meaningful than modern liturgical trends.
They also unpack the link between sacred worship and moral clarity, why reverence matters, and how parishes that embrace tradition are seeing more vocations and conversions. If you've ever wondered what draws so many back to the Latin Mass, or why its defenders are so passionate, this is the episode for you.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's a lot of talk about the Latin Mass, and
we'll explore why it is attracting young people. With Cardinal
Raymond Burke. A special edition of The Prayerful Posse has arrived.
(00:21):
Welcome to this Arroyo Grande series, The Prayerful Posse. I
want to go right to Cardinal Raymond Burke, but before
we do, don't forget to subscribe to the Arroyo Grande
channel here on YouTube or look, if you like podcasts,
go to iHeart, Apple Spotify subscribe there. We don't want
you to miss an episode. This month mark's the fiftieth
(00:42):
anniversary of this man's priesthood. I want to welcome to
the show his eminence, Raymond, Cardinal Burke, your eminence. You
are the first cardinal we've ever had on this new
Posse program, so welcome. You got a really nice note
from Pope Leo on your golden jubilee, and I want
to quote this. He said he has preached, meaning you,
(01:03):
the precepts of the Gospel according to the Heart of Christ,
and has recounted his treasures diligently, offering his devoted service
to the church. Universal pretty high praise. He also commended
your defense of church law. What did that mean to
you when you read that.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Note, Well, it was very encouraging to me certainly.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
That's what I always intended, was to be a true
teacher of the faith and also at the same time
to observe the discipline of the Church for the good
of everyone, and to defend the discipline of the Church,
which now for several decades has been under attack and
(01:43):
the whole anti nomian, anti law culture in which we
have lived. Thanks God, it seems to be abating. But
in any case, I was very heartened by the Holy
Father's words.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, no, they were beautiful and well deserved. I mean,
if anybody had been preaching and defending the faith in
season and out of season, I think I know his name,
and it's mine, except it's got cardinal before it. I know.
You've been a huge proponent of the traditional Latin mass,
your eminence, which as you know, is being suppressed in
(02:17):
so many dioceseses following Pope Francis's legislation years ago. But
still young people are flocking to this Latin mass no
matter where I travel. I mean I was just in Washington,
d C. Or outside of Washington, d C. You go
to Nashville, here in New Orleans, and this week in England,
a seminary offered the ancient Roman Right in Birmingham and
(02:40):
they were packed to the gills. What is drawing them,
your Eminence, and how is this different from the New Mass.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
It's the beauty of the what I call the more
ancient form of the Roman right, the form which you
did practically from the time of pum Saint Gregory the
Great until the time of the Second Vatican Council. And
we and the Holy Father in his words me talked
about the tradition, the treasures in the church, and the
(03:11):
great treasure of the Church. I remember it from my
own childhood. It was clear to me that her great
treasury was the sacred liturgy, was the Roman Rite, and
how it had developed in unity over the centuries. And
oftentimes people refer to the reforms of after the Council
(03:33):
of Trent as being the same as the reforms that
were done to the Sacred Liturgy after the Second Vatican Council.
But that's not the case. And the reforms after the
Council of Trent were to address some elements, but the
form of the right I mean, was maintained and so
in continuity for more than fifteen centuries. And whereas after
(03:59):
the Second Batgy Council, and I mean not due to
the teaching of the Council, but to the way in
which that teaching was abused, the right was radically reduced.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I don't question its validity in any way.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
And there is a continuity, but it's so strained. You
don't take something so rich in beauty and start stripping
away the beautiful elements and without having a negative effect.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
You're eminence. A lot of people looking in, you know,
some Catholic, some non Catholic, look. A lot of young
people watch the show and they are just curious, I think,
and have no exposure really to the old right, but
they're drawn to it when they see it. How is
it different from the new mass? Can you go through
a couple of the elements that you would underscore and say,
(04:55):
you know, this is something, that this is a reservoir
of richness in the traditional Latin right that we shouldn't lose,
and that perhaps either has been overlooked or edited out.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Well, I would say that the principal element, I think,
which is attracting the young people and which attracts me
is that the form of the right is such that
it makes it clear that it's Christ who's acting, that
the priest is acting in the person of Christ, but
it's the priest fades into the background and Christ emerges.
(05:34):
Because of the form of the right, there's no spontaneity,
there's not this kind of familiarity that was introduced after
the Council, you know, introducing ordinary language into the Sacred
Liturgy and all those elements that we seek to be
lifted up. We don't go to the Holy Mass to
(05:56):
take part in some secular activity that keeps us in
in the worldly and what is not uplifting, what is
not inspiring. We go there to encounter God and to
be lifted up and to be drawn to a greater
conversion of life. And that's what we find in the
what's now called the extraordinary form or the more ancient
(06:16):
usage of the Roman rite. So it's this transcendence, I
would say oftentimes commentators talk about that is that it's
clear when one is assisting at this right, that something
heavenly is taking place, something that's beyond this world, and
that's essential. What worship is worship of God as God
(06:39):
himself has instructed us to worship him, and it takes
simp e element for instance, the prayers at the foot
of the alder, which were eliminated, but this came into
the form of the Mass from the ancient Jewish form
of worship, the prayers of the priests before entering into
the Holy of Holies. These are all elements which and
(07:01):
the beautiful prayers for the offertory for instance, and the
richer prayers before the priest, So the communion, all of
these elements that they keep drawing us back to the
presence of Christ. Christ has descended from his place in
glory at the right hand of the Father, and now
he's offering the Mass using the hens and heart and
(07:25):
lips and the being of his priest to make a
present for us his sacrifice eron.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
It's what would you say? And I get this a
lot even in our comments, people say, oh, I was there,
I don't like that idea, the priest turning his back
to the people. Talk about the orientation out orientum facing
these what that means, why it's important, and how it
connects us to the very ancient worship as you mentioned,
(07:52):
a moment ago of the Jewish faith.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Surely well, the figure of the priest. He's acting in
the person of Christ, head and shepherd of the flock,
and so he's at the head of the flock, leading
them in prayer, and everyone is facing God. We're not praying.
The priest is not praying to the people. The priest
is not putting on some kind of theater for the people.
He's at the head of the people, leading them in
(08:15):
prayer to God.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
And so it's the most.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
It's the most natural logical posture, is that the priest
should be facing and he's not turning his back on
the people, but he's as a good shepherd, he's at
their head, leading them, and they're following him who are
offering up their prayers. I've heard the analogy used. It's
certainly a little not perfect, but they said, you wouldn't
(08:41):
want the bus driver on the bus to be looking
at you when he's supposed to be driving the driving
you somewhere, and so it's the same way. The priest
isn't interacting with the people. The priests is that their head,
Christ himself leading them to to prayer to God the Father.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
So and to the east, the source of the resurrection.
I mean, that's where the resurrection will happen, and it
happens every Sunday, every Mass.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Exactly right. The Mass is the evidence of the resurrection
of Christ. If Christ hadn't risen from the dead, we
wouldn't have the Holy Mass. He wouldn't be able to
continue to give himself to us in this way.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
You know, there's another interesting thing in the polling. I
just read a pupil and it shows about twenty five
percent of Catholics eighteen to thirty nine a ten Mass.
But among those who prefer the Latin Mass, ninety eight
percent attend every week and fifty eight percent of them say,
as you mentioned earlier, reverence and the music are major factors.
(09:49):
Why isn't the larger church getting that message your eminence?
And why has this become so volatile, so explosive in
the church.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Well, I think it's the defective catechisas over over many
decades that people don't understand what the reality of the Mass,
and they get glimpses of it, but they we need
to teach again what what what the Mass is, what
it means to worship God. And if people don't understand that,
(10:23):
if they think it's some kind of social event or
some kind of a communal meal, whatever it might be.
The single Yes, music, you mentioned music. It's so important.
When I was a child, I remember in second grade
the sister teaching us the notes of Gregorian chant when
we were learning the chance, and we sang Palestrina during
(10:45):
Holy Week and so forth.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
In some ways, this is what the Vatican Council intended.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Exactly, and no exactly it was.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
It was no, there was no intent, no intent to
kind of what I would call an eccles awokeism, that
you know, everything in the past is no good, the
form of the Mass no good. We have to invent
something new. Saint Paul says about the Eucharist. I handed
on to you what I first of all received. We
there should be in that sense that also the form
(11:15):
of the Mass is handed down from one generation to
the next.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
And I remember.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Thinking of that when I was a youngster, that this
is the Mass that's been celebrated in the Church for centuries,
and even the Latin language, and I think that it's
sad that one could have provided for the proclamation of
the readings in the vernacular. But the Latin language was
(11:43):
also unified us, not only in time as the Mass
came down to us, but also in space, wherever you went,
you could always pray the Holy Mass, because it was
the language of the Church.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah. And Vatican too never called for the eradication of Latin,
and it called for its preservation exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
It called it said there should be a repertory of
Gregorian chant, for instance, that would be taught throughout the world. Well,
those things somehow got lost, not everywhere, but too sadly
in great part.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, well, what are the origins of that chant? I
get this all the time. I mean it's people say,
you know where do where does this chant come from?
You know it's you know, it's this is a relic
of the Middle Ages. They say, not the case.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
No it's not at all.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
It has its remote roots and the chants from at
the time of our Lord himself, the the Hebrew Hebrew chant.
And then it developed very early in the church, this
music which was only used for for worship. It's not
(12:55):
it was never used for any for anything else. And uh,
going back to Guido Drezzo, who Guido from Aretzo in Italy,
and so no, this is came very early in the church.
And next day, as I say, from Jewish worship developed
(13:15):
out of it. There are some very important studies of that.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, its roots are in the very early centuries, so
you know, we really predate the Church. In a speech
in London, you said something I want to draw attention to.
You said, and this was just a month ago. Doctrinal
and moral corruption in the Church is manifested in the
falsification of divine worship, where the truth of doctrine and
(13:40):
the goodness of morals are not respected. Neither is the
beauty of worship. What did you mean by that? And
how is worship related to corruption and moral error?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
The worship of God are lifting up our minds and
hearts to God, has a profoundly moral aspect to it.
It caused us to overcome the temptations, overcome the effects
of original sin in our lives, temptations which come from
both from within ourselves and also from the world and
from from Satan and the forces of evil. And it's
(14:16):
in the sacred liturgy that we contact God in the
most perfect way possible. We're in communion with God in
the most perfect way possible, and this gives us strength
and force to continue that that battle to overcome evil
in our lives and.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
To do good, to serve what is good.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
And it's simply a matter of fact that when when
when liturgy is benalized. For instance, Saint Paul confronted that
in the in Corinth in the early days of the Church,
the people were eating and drinking and carrying on, and
in the context of the sacred liturgy, then immorality ensues.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And of course and so and oftentimes.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Well, I heard the famous example of of Paul Clodell,
the great French poet, who was that it was at
the solemn Vespers and on Easter Sunday, I believe it
was in the Saint the Cathedral Notre Dame that he
received the grace of conversion. The beauty, the music, the
(15:23):
the the form of the praying of the Vespers gave
him the strength and to to embark on a conversion
of life. And the stories are our legion and the
and the ancient form of the of the Roman Rite
inspired just such conversions. Uh, and you know, led to
(15:46):
saints created saints helped to help people to become heroic
in their in their Christian life.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Well, it's often called this ancient Latin. We call it
now the traditional Latin Mass, or the extraordinary form of
the Mass. It is also referred to as the Mass
of the Saints. And that's because in its form and
in its substance, the Food of God, the Bread of life,
is imparted during that mass. That's wide exists, and somewhere
(16:14):
along the way we've lost that reverence. And when you
lose the reverence, when you lose the music and you
lose the reverence, you lose the reality of the Eucharist
and its power exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
I think an example that struck me. It was some
years ago, but I was studying the life of Saint
Damien da Vista. There's Damien of Malachi, and of course
he's often presented solely in terms of his care for
the lepers, and with which was heroic indeed. But when
you read what he writes about the Holy Eucharists and
(16:45):
how important in his life eucharistic faith was, you understand
that that was the fund of the love that he
showed these porests of the poorest, so to speak. At
that time and in that place.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
There's all obviously a vocational crisis your eminence. I mean,
look some of these larger dioceses, you know this as
well as anybody. You were the archbishop of Saint Louis.
These larger dioceses are having real trouble. In a five
year period from twenty nineteen to about twenty twenty three,
San Diego, for instance, ordained nine priests in that five
(17:20):
year period. Meanwhile Bismarck, North Carolina in the same period
ordained fifteen priests. And they are far far smaller, but
they focus on schools. They sent priests to serve in
those schools, so young men see an example of vocations,
and they take to the juniors on a trip to
Rome to stress Catholic orthodoxy. Why aren't others following that
(17:43):
Bizmarck model.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
No, you said North Carolina, but I think you met
North Dakota.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I mean North Dakota.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, very good.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Well that's they have, of course an excellent bishop there,
and they have exactly what you say. If you stress,
put your stress on the family and on Catholic education,
real Catholic education, which of course the family is deeply
involved within the priests, and exactly what you say, members
of Bishop I saw this was so important to have
(18:12):
the priests in the schools, teaching and giving an example
of priests the life and comporting themselves. Of course, you
put your best priests in the schools, in the seminaries
in order to hand on the faith in the best
way possible to the coming generations. But then, yes, we
need to turn to those dioceses and who are Some
(18:36):
of them are very small, but they are. Our Lord
is always calling a sufficient number of young men to
the priesthood in every diocese. If there's a problem with vocations,
the problem is ours. We're not helping the young people
to have a lively faith that will permit them to
(18:58):
hear our Lord's call.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Come follow me and I will make you fishers of men. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Well, it's obvious you're Eminent's I mean everything you're talking
about today, the beauty of music, the sequality of the liturgy,
and it's beauty and the rhythm and the tone of
sequality that it sets by its very nature, and the example,
the lived example of clergy and laity side by side.
That is the key forward. And it's and young people
(19:23):
are hearing the call, they're seeing it, they're experiencing it,
and they want more of it. I know why the
church doesn't offer it.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I hear it all the time. I encountered, and I'm
a relatively old man. It's not that I'm that much
in contact. Pity, so many young people encounter regularly, and
they're hearing a call. They're saying, please pray for me.
I remember a couple of years ago I was at
the Three Hearts pilgrimage at Clear Creek Abbey in Oklahoma,
(19:53):
and afterwards I greeted the pilgrims, all these all these
young people, and I don't know how many them told me, well,
I'm entering the passion and.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
See of this religious order. I'm going to the seminary.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
How many said, please pray for me your eminence, because
I'm thinking I'm hearing the call to the priesthood. No,
it's evident, and it's remarkable in a time like ours,
which is so much securarization, so much evil in terms
of the attack on human life and the family, and
on our own identity as man and woman, and yet
(20:26):
the Holy Spirit is clearly at work drawing souls your eminence.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Before I let you go back in March, you started
a nine month novena to our Lady of Guadelupe. And
this is how it begins, O Virgin Mother of God.
We fly to your protection and beg your intercession against
the darkness and sin which ever more enveloped the world
and menace the church. Why does it start that way?
(20:53):
And tell those tuning in what a novena is For
those who might not know.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
It's as simple as this. The world has fallen. We
are need of salvation. Our first impulse to prayer is
because we recognize the forces of evil about us, and
we also recognize that there is one who has overcome them,
and who is alive with us, in us and will
(21:18):
help us overcome, and that is Jesus Christ. And we
fly to his mother to get us to him, take
us to him. And in the situation in which we're living,
we only need to look around at the proliferation of crime,
of violence, of murder, and then internationally the wars, tremendous
(21:40):
destruction of human life and of goods, the u and
for instance, this horrible gender theory that was promulgated. It
seems to me that rightly it's having a short life
at least I hope so. But when so many lives
(22:00):
so wounded, these young people who in the confusion of
their adolescents, think that they aren't the sex that the
God created them and then have surgeries and so for
a lo only later to realize what they've done is
mutilate themselves. And well, we need to go into all
kinds of examples. But the world is in need of salvation.
(22:21):
And this is also with regard to the sacred liturgy.
What we should be offering in sacred worship is exactly
the worship of God and not worship of ourselves and
of our fallen nature.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Well, look, your Eminence, I could talk to you all day.
I'm so glad you joined us not only on the
seventeenth anniversary of the Shrine of our Lady of Guadalupe
that you found it in Lacrosse, but also the fiftieth
anniversary of your priestudent. So jubilees all around, your Eminence,
thank you for being here, and I hope to see
you again, very silk.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Thank you God, bless your imminent and the work of
the What is it now, the prayerful Posse?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Prayerful Posse? You see, I knew you'd get it right.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
You're evidence to you.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
That's a wonderful, wonderful title.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
You're very kind. Well, thank you, my friend, and we'll
see you soon.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
God bless you, God bless you.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Bye. Well, that is all the time we have. Look,
if you want more Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, it isn't good,
it's fun. Subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube
or the Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you get yours, and
you'll instantly get the Prayerful Posse until we ride again.
Stay the course, follow the light. I'm ranging an Arroyo.
(23:36):
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is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and it's available
on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts
(24:00):
and
There's a lot of talk about the Latin Mass, and
we'll explore why it is attracting young people. With Cardinal
Raymond Burke. A special edition of The Prayerful Posse has arrived.
(00:21):
Welcome to this Arroyo Grande series, The Prayerful Posse. I
want to go right to Cardinal Raymond Burke, but before
we do, don't forget to subscribe to the Arroyo Grande
channel here on YouTube or look, if you like podcasts,
go to iHeart, Apple Spotify subscribe there. We don't want
you to miss an episode. This month mark's the fiftieth
(00:42):
anniversary of this man's priesthood. I want to welcome to
the show his eminence, Raymond, Cardinal Burke, your eminence. You
are the first cardinal we've ever had on this new
Posse program, so welcome. You got a really nice note
from Pope Leo on your golden jubilee, and I want
to quote this. He said he has preached, meaning you,
(01:03):
the precepts of the Gospel according to the Heart of Christ,
and has recounted his treasures diligently, offering his devoted service
to the church. Universal pretty high praise. He also commended
your defense of church law. What did that mean to
you when you read that.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Note, Well, it was very encouraging to me certainly.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
That's what I always intended, was to be a true
teacher of the faith and also at the same time
to observe the discipline of the Church for the good
of everyone, and to defend the discipline of the Church,
which now for several decades has been under attack and
(01:43):
the whole anti nomian, anti law culture in which we
have lived. Thanks God, it seems to be abating. But
in any case, I was very heartened by the Holy
Father's words.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, no, they were beautiful and well deserved. I mean,
if anybody had been preaching and defending the faith in
season and out of season, I think I know his name,
and it's mine, except it's got cardinal before it. I know.
You've been a huge proponent of the traditional Latin mass,
your eminence, which as you know, is being suppressed in
(02:17):
so many dioceseses following Pope Francis's legislation years ago. But
still young people are flocking to this Latin mass no
matter where I travel. I mean I was just in Washington,
d C. Or outside of Washington, d C. You go
to Nashville, here in New Orleans, and this week in England,
a seminary offered the ancient Roman Right in Birmingham and
(02:40):
they were packed to the gills. What is drawing them,
your Eminence, and how is this different from the New Mass.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
It's the beauty of the what I call the more
ancient form of the Roman right, the form which you
did practically from the time of pum Saint Gregory the
Great until the time of the Second Vatican Council. And
we and the Holy Father in his words me talked
about the tradition, the treasures in the church, and the
(03:11):
great treasure of the Church. I remember it from my
own childhood. It was clear to me that her great
treasury was the sacred liturgy, was the Roman Rite, and
how it had developed in unity over the centuries. And
oftentimes people refer to the reforms of after the Council
(03:33):
of Trent as being the same as the reforms that
were done to the Sacred Liturgy after the Second Vatican Council.
But that's not the case. And the reforms after the
Council of Trent were to address some elements, but the
form of the right I mean, was maintained and so
in continuity for more than fifteen centuries. And whereas after
(03:59):
the Second Batgy Council, and I mean not due to
the teaching of the Council, but to the way in
which that teaching was abused, the right was radically reduced.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I don't question its validity in any way.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
And there is a continuity, but it's so strained. You
don't take something so rich in beauty and start stripping
away the beautiful elements and without having a negative effect.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
You're eminence. A lot of people looking in, you know,
some Catholic, some non Catholic, look. A lot of young
people watch the show and they are just curious, I think,
and have no exposure really to the old right, but
they're drawn to it when they see it. How is
it different from the new mass? Can you go through
a couple of the elements that you would underscore and say,
(04:55):
you know, this is something, that this is a reservoir
of richness in the traditional Latin right that we shouldn't lose,
and that perhaps either has been overlooked or edited out.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Well, I would say that the principal element, I think,
which is attracting the young people and which attracts me
is that the form of the right is such that
it makes it clear that it's Christ who's acting, that
the priest is acting in the person of Christ, but
it's the priest fades into the background and Christ emerges.
(05:34):
Because of the form of the right, there's no spontaneity,
there's not this kind of familiarity that was introduced after
the Council, you know, introducing ordinary language into the Sacred
Liturgy and all those elements that we seek to be
lifted up. We don't go to the Holy Mass to
(05:56):
take part in some secular activity that keeps us in
in the worldly and what is not uplifting, what is
not inspiring. We go there to encounter God and to
be lifted up and to be drawn to a greater
conversion of life. And that's what we find in the
what's now called the extraordinary form or the more ancient
(06:16):
usage of the Roman rite. So it's this transcendence, I
would say oftentimes commentators talk about that is that it's
clear when one is assisting at this right, that something
heavenly is taking place, something that's beyond this world, and
that's essential. What worship is worship of God as God
(06:39):
himself has instructed us to worship him, and it takes
simp e element for instance, the prayers at the foot
of the alder, which were eliminated, but this came into
the form of the Mass from the ancient Jewish form
of worship, the prayers of the priests before entering into
the Holy of Holies. These are all elements which and
(07:01):
the beautiful prayers for the offertory for instance, and the
richer prayers before the priest, So the communion, all of
these elements that they keep drawing us back to the
presence of Christ. Christ has descended from his place in
glory at the right hand of the Father, and now
he's offering the Mass using the hens and heart and
(07:25):
lips and the being of his priest to make a
present for us his sacrifice eron.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
It's what would you say? And I get this a
lot even in our comments, people say, oh, I was there,
I don't like that idea, the priest turning his back
to the people. Talk about the orientation out orientum facing
these what that means, why it's important, and how it
connects us to the very ancient worship as you mentioned,
(07:52):
a moment ago of the Jewish faith.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Surely well, the figure of the priest. He's acting in
the person of Christ, head and shepherd of the flock,
and so he's at the head of the flock, leading
them in prayer, and everyone is facing God. We're not praying.
The priest is not praying to the people. The priest
is not putting on some kind of theater for the people.
He's at the head of the people, leading them in
(08:15):
prayer to God.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
And so it's the most.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
It's the most natural logical posture, is that the priest
should be facing and he's not turning his back on
the people, but he's as a good shepherd, he's at
their head, leading them, and they're following him who are
offering up their prayers. I've heard the analogy used. It's
certainly a little not perfect, but they said, you wouldn't
(08:41):
want the bus driver on the bus to be looking
at you when he's supposed to be driving the driving
you somewhere, and so it's the same way. The priest
isn't interacting with the people. The priests is that their head,
Christ himself leading them to to prayer to God the Father.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
So and to the east, the source of the resurrection.
I mean, that's where the resurrection will happen, and it
happens every Sunday, every Mass.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Exactly right. The Mass is the evidence of the resurrection
of Christ. If Christ hadn't risen from the dead, we
wouldn't have the Holy Mass. He wouldn't be able to
continue to give himself to us in this way.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
You know, there's another interesting thing in the polling. I
just read a pupil and it shows about twenty five
percent of Catholics eighteen to thirty nine a ten Mass.
But among those who prefer the Latin Mass, ninety eight
percent attend every week and fifty eight percent of them say,
as you mentioned earlier, reverence and the music are major factors.
(09:49):
Why isn't the larger church getting that message your eminence?
And why has this become so volatile, so explosive in
the church.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Well, I think it's the defective catechisas over over many
decades that people don't understand what the reality of the Mass,
and they get glimpses of it, but they we need
to teach again what what what the Mass is, what
it means to worship God. And if people don't understand that,
(10:23):
if they think it's some kind of social event or
some kind of a communal meal, whatever it might be.
The single Yes, music, you mentioned music. It's so important.
When I was a child, I remember in second grade
the sister teaching us the notes of Gregorian chant when
we were learning the chance, and we sang Palestrina during
(10:45):
Holy Week and so forth.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
In some ways, this is what the Vatican Council intended.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Exactly, and no exactly it was.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
It was no, there was no intent, no intent to
kind of what I would call an eccles awokeism, that
you know, everything in the past is no good, the
form of the Mass no good. We have to invent
something new. Saint Paul says about the Eucharist. I handed
on to you what I first of all received. We
there should be in that sense that also the form
(11:15):
of the Mass is handed down from one generation to
the next.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
And I remember.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Thinking of that when I was a youngster, that this
is the Mass that's been celebrated in the Church for centuries,
and even the Latin language, and I think that it's
sad that one could have provided for the proclamation of
the readings in the vernacular. But the Latin language was
(11:43):
also unified us, not only in time as the Mass
came down to us, but also in space, wherever you went,
you could always pray the Holy Mass, because it was
the language of the Church.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah. And Vatican too never called for the eradication of Latin,
and it called for its preservation exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
It called it said there should be a repertory of
Gregorian chant, for instance, that would be taught throughout the world. Well,
those things somehow got lost, not everywhere, but too sadly
in great part.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, well, what are the origins of that chant? I
get this all the time. I mean it's people say,
you know where do where does this chant come from?
You know it's you know, it's this is a relic
of the Middle Ages. They say, not the case.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
No it's not at all.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
It has its remote roots and the chants from at
the time of our Lord himself, the the Hebrew Hebrew chant.
And then it developed very early in the church, this
music which was only used for for worship. It's not
(12:55):
it was never used for any for anything else. And uh,
going back to Guido Drezzo, who Guido from Aretzo in Italy,
and so no, this is came very early in the church.
And next day, as I say, from Jewish worship developed
(13:15):
out of it. There are some very important studies of that.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, its roots are in the very early centuries, so
you know, we really predate the Church. In a speech
in London, you said something I want to draw attention to.
You said, and this was just a month ago. Doctrinal
and moral corruption in the Church is manifested in the
falsification of divine worship, where the truth of doctrine and
(13:40):
the goodness of morals are not respected. Neither is the
beauty of worship. What did you mean by that? And
how is worship related to corruption and moral error?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
The worship of God are lifting up our minds and
hearts to God, has a profoundly moral aspect to it.
It caused us to overcome the temptations, overcome the effects
of original sin in our lives, temptations which come from
both from within ourselves and also from the world and
from from Satan and the forces of evil. And it's
(14:16):
in the sacred liturgy that we contact God in the
most perfect way possible. We're in communion with God in
the most perfect way possible, and this gives us strength
and force to continue that that battle to overcome evil
in our lives and.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
To do good, to serve what is good.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
And it's simply a matter of fact that when when
when liturgy is benalized. For instance, Saint Paul confronted that
in the in Corinth in the early days of the Church,
the people were eating and drinking and carrying on, and
in the context of the sacred liturgy, then immorality ensues.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And of course and so and oftentimes.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Well, I heard the famous example of of Paul Clodell,
the great French poet, who was that it was at
the solemn Vespers and on Easter Sunday, I believe it
was in the Saint the Cathedral Notre Dame that he
received the grace of conversion. The beauty, the music, the
(15:23):
the the form of the praying of the Vespers gave
him the strength and to to embark on a conversion
of life. And the stories are our legion and the
and the ancient form of the of the Roman Rite
inspired just such conversions. Uh, and you know, led to
(15:46):
saints created saints helped to help people to become heroic
in their in their Christian life.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Well, it's often called this ancient Latin. We call it
now the traditional Latin Mass, or the extraordinary form of
the Mass. It is also referred to as the Mass
of the Saints. And that's because in its form and
in its substance, the Food of God, the Bread of life,
is imparted during that mass. That's wide exists, and somewhere
(16:14):
along the way we've lost that reverence. And when you
lose the reverence, when you lose the music and you
lose the reverence, you lose the reality of the Eucharist
and its power exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
I think an example that struck me. It was some
years ago, but I was studying the life of Saint
Damien da Vista. There's Damien of Malachi, and of course
he's often presented solely in terms of his care for
the lepers, and with which was heroic indeed. But when
you read what he writes about the Holy Eucharists and
(16:45):
how important in his life eucharistic faith was, you understand
that that was the fund of the love that he
showed these porests of the poorest, so to speak. At
that time and in that place.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
There's all obviously a vocational crisis your eminence. I mean,
look some of these larger dioceses, you know this as
well as anybody. You were the archbishop of Saint Louis.
These larger dioceses are having real trouble. In a five
year period from twenty nineteen to about twenty twenty three,
San Diego, for instance, ordained nine priests in that five
(17:20):
year period. Meanwhile Bismarck, North Carolina in the same period
ordained fifteen priests. And they are far far smaller, but
they focus on schools. They sent priests to serve in
those schools, so young men see an example of vocations,
and they take to the juniors on a trip to
Rome to stress Catholic orthodoxy. Why aren't others following that
(17:43):
Bizmarck model.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
No, you said North Carolina, but I think you met
North Dakota.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I mean North Dakota.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, very good.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Well that's they have, of course an excellent bishop there,
and they have exactly what you say. If you stress,
put your stress on the family and on Catholic education,
real Catholic education, which of course the family is deeply
involved within the priests, and exactly what you say, members
of Bishop I saw this was so important to have
(18:12):
the priests in the schools, teaching and giving an example
of priests the life and comporting themselves. Of course, you
put your best priests in the schools, in the seminaries
in order to hand on the faith in the best
way possible to the coming generations. But then, yes, we
need to turn to those dioceses and who are Some
(18:36):
of them are very small, but they are. Our Lord
is always calling a sufficient number of young men to
the priesthood in every diocese. If there's a problem with vocations,
the problem is ours. We're not helping the young people
to have a lively faith that will permit them to
(18:58):
hear our Lord's call.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Come follow me and I will make you fishers of men. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Well, it's obvious you're Eminent's I mean everything you're talking
about today, the beauty of music, the sequality of the liturgy,
and it's beauty and the rhythm and the tone of
sequality that it sets by its very nature, and the example,
the lived example of clergy and laity side by side.
That is the key forward. And it's and young people
(19:23):
are hearing the call, they're seeing it, they're experiencing it,
and they want more of it. I know why the
church doesn't offer it.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I hear it all the time. I encountered, and I'm
a relatively old man. It's not that I'm that much
in contact. Pity, so many young people encounter regularly, and
they're hearing a call. They're saying, please pray for me.
I remember a couple of years ago I was at
the Three Hearts pilgrimage at Clear Creek Abbey in Oklahoma,
(19:53):
and afterwards I greeted the pilgrims, all these all these
young people, and I don't know how many them told me, well,
I'm entering the passion and.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
See of this religious order. I'm going to the seminary.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
How many said, please pray for me your eminence, because
I'm thinking I'm hearing the call to the priesthood. No,
it's evident, and it's remarkable in a time like ours,
which is so much securarization, so much evil in terms
of the attack on human life and the family, and
on our own identity as man and woman, and yet
(20:26):
the Holy Spirit is clearly at work drawing souls your eminence.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Before I let you go back in March, you started
a nine month novena to our Lady of Guadelupe. And
this is how it begins, O Virgin Mother of God.
We fly to your protection and beg your intercession against
the darkness and sin which ever more enveloped the world
and menace the church. Why does it start that way?
(20:53):
And tell those tuning in what a novena is For
those who might not know.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
It's as simple as this. The world has fallen. We
are need of salvation. Our first impulse to prayer is
because we recognize the forces of evil about us, and
we also recognize that there is one who has overcome them,
and who is alive with us, in us and will
(21:18):
help us overcome, and that is Jesus Christ. And we
fly to his mother to get us to him, take
us to him. And in the situation in which we're living,
we only need to look around at the proliferation of crime,
of violence, of murder, and then internationally the wars, tremendous
(21:40):
destruction of human life and of goods, the u and
for instance, this horrible gender theory that was promulgated. It
seems to me that rightly it's having a short life
at least I hope so. But when so many lives
(22:00):
so wounded, these young people who in the confusion of
their adolescents, think that they aren't the sex that the
God created them and then have surgeries and so for
a lo only later to realize what they've done is
mutilate themselves. And well, we need to go into all
kinds of examples. But the world is in need of salvation.
(22:21):
And this is also with regard to the sacred liturgy.
What we should be offering in sacred worship is exactly
the worship of God and not worship of ourselves and
of our fallen nature.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Well, look, your Eminence, I could talk to you all day.
I'm so glad you joined us not only on the
seventeenth anniversary of the Shrine of our Lady of Guadalupe
that you found it in Lacrosse, but also the fiftieth
anniversary of your priestudent. So jubilees all around, your Eminence,
thank you for being here, and I hope to see
you again, very silk.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Thank you God, bless your imminent and the work of
the What is it now, the prayerful Posse?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Prayerful Posse? You see, I knew you'd get it right.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
You're evidence to you.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
That's a wonderful, wonderful title.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
You're very kind. Well, thank you, my friend, and we'll
see you soon.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
God bless you, God bless you.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Bye. Well, that is all the time we have. Look,
if you want more Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, it isn't good,
it's fun. Subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube
or the Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you get yours, and
you'll instantly get the Prayerful Posse until we ride again.
Stay the course, follow the light. I'm ranging an Arroyo.
(23:36):
We'll see an next tent. The Royal Grande Prayerful Posse
is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and it's available
on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts
(24:00):
and
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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