September 12, 2025 • 41 mins
In this powerful episode of Prayerful Posse, Raymond Arroyo and his guests reflect on the shocking assassination of Charlie Kirk and what it reveals about the spiritual and cultural state of America. They explore the growing epidemic of political violence, the role of faith in Kirk’s life, and how his legacy is inspiring a new generation of young people to stand for God, family, and truth.
Father Robert Sirico and Gordon Chang join the discussion to analyze the deeper causes behind today’s hatred and polarization, drawing parallels to past eras of turmoil. The conversation then turns to Rome, where confusion around an LGBT jubilee and Pope Leo’s suppression of Chinese dioceses raise troubling questions about the Vatican’s relationship with the Communist Party. The panel also highlights the plight of Catholic dissidents like Jimmy Lai, still imprisoned in Hong Kong for his defense of democracy and faith.
From Kirk’s witness to the challenges facing the global Church, this episode tackles the intersection of politics, faith, and cultural upheaval—and why returning to God and reason is the only path forward.
👉 Don’t miss this urgent and timely discussion. Subscribe to Prayerful Posse for more conversations on faith, culture, and the issues shaping our world.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Charlie Kirk's assassination tells us a lot about where we
are spiritually and culturally, and why did Pope Leo suppress
a pair of Chinese dioceses. The Prayerful Posse explores it all. Next,
(00:23):
Welcome to a very special Prayerful Posse. Be sure to
go subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful way to
support our work and totally free, So subscribe away, bring
friends and you can support our work at Raymondarroyo dot com.
A word about Charlie Kirk before I assemble today's Posse.
I knew Charlie.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I interviewed him.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
On Fox multiple times, texted him often. We talked about faith,
we talked about politics. He was one of the most
effective political activists on the scene. He was largely credited
with galvanizing the young vote for Donald Trump in the
last election. Well, this week, he was a shot murdered,
as many of you have heard, in front of a
college audience where he was engaging with excited crowds of
(01:06):
young people at a Utah campus.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Now, some have.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Said he was slain because of free speech. His opponents
didn't like what he was saying. I'm not sure That's
the reason I'm more persuaded to believe that he was
killed because someone or some group saw him as a
political threat. For Charlie Kirk, politics was an advocation, but
his faith in God was his real focus. He knew
(01:31):
what true religion was. His politics was merely an overflow
of that deeply held faith. For too many, politics has
become a religion, one worth killing for. After the gains
Charlie Kirk made with young voters and his continuing influence,
someone apparently thought the only way to stop him was
to kill him. What an evil, wicked, horrible thought. We've
(01:55):
seen a cultural pattern of this poisonous thought of late,
the multiple assassination attempts on President Trump's life, that poor
young woman stabbed in the throat by the repeat offender
on a train in Charlotte. In June, a shooter dressed
as a cop and killed a Minnesota lawmaker and her
husband in their home. Then there's the ongoing Lionization, the
(02:16):
cult status of Luigi Mangioni, who shot a healthcare executive
in New York City in the back. All of these
cases demonstrate the power I believe of the demonic and
a hatred for human life and dignity. But they also
have habituated us to the idea that those whom you
disagree with or take issue with for any reason deserve
(02:38):
to die. Last week, the Pope said, following that heinous
Minneapolis church shooting where little children were killed during mass,
that we have a pandemic of arms.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Perhaps he's right, but what about.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
The pandemic of hatred, the pandemic of ideology, the pandemic
of the demonic. When I watched before Charlie Kirk bleeding
from his wound, all I could think was how diabolical
this is a young father shot before his own child
and supporters who looked up to him. Whomever that sniper
was that killed Charlie, they probably thought they were ending
(03:18):
Kirk's efforts, killing his movement. What that sniper really created
were one hundred Charlie Kirks. I've spoken yesterday and today
with young people on college campuses, and they are hurting,
they're furious, but they're pouring all of that into continuing
Kirk's example of tradition, fatherhood, family, love of God, and
(03:42):
political activism. And that's really what Kirk was all about.
Kirk's wife was Catholic and Over the last few months
he began attending Mass with her at their local parish
in Arizona, and if you listen to his message in
recent days, he could not have been more clear.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Evil cannot exist. If there is no standard of good,
evil does not exist. Evil is just an opinion. If
there is no God, murder is not wrong. If there
is no God, stealing is not wrong. If there is
no God, and we believe it, we know as believers
that there is an absolute standard above us that we
appeal to. I think we, as pradence and evangelicals under
venerate Mary. She was very important. She was a vessel
(04:24):
for our Lord and Savior. There's something there. In fact,
I believe one of the ways that we fix toxic
feminism in America is Mary is the solution.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Young men are going back to church. That is legit,
that's happening because honestly, it's the only thing that they
can find. It's a life raft in this just tsunami
of chaos, total and disorder. They want something that has lasted.
They want someth that is ancient and that is beautiful,
some that has stood the test of time, some that's
not going to change.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Charlie Kirk loved God and his family, and those who
watched and listened to him certainly got that most important mess.
I want to bring now, Father Robert sir Rico in,
the founder of the Act and institute. Father, thank you
for being here. What does this represent? Do you think
in our history? This slaying of Charlie Kirk, this pattern
(05:13):
of political violence and assassination that we're seeing moving through
the culture.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
Well, it is a very sad day. And you have
articulated and outlined many of the problems. I would say
that if I were going to look at the root
of this thing, it is really the rejection of reason.
If Charlie represented anything, you know, I've heard people say
he was antagonistic, and he was disrespectfully, he hated people.
(05:42):
But all you have to do is go through his
ubiquitous presentations around this country and he would say, if
you disagree with me, come to the front of the
line and tell me why he exemplified. You know, I
didn't know him. We were in venues to get but
I never really got to know him. I would love
(06:03):
to have had a go around at dinner with him,
because I like a man who can reason and who
can keep his cool and really seek the truth. And
I think this diminishment of reason, which we see particularly
in the trans movement, where people don't want to debate it,
they just want to cancel you in one way or another.
(06:25):
We see it in the disrespect for human life and
the very fact that you can't talk about human life
and its dignity, the abandonment of reason in that regard,
and many many other issues where people are just so polarized,
and when people are polarized, they resort to violence.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Well, and also, Father, you know something I've been saying
for months. When you don't have a functioning opposition party
and you have one that is so damaged, it is
really unhealthy for the republic because what happens is the
people who are part of that feel so disenfranchised without
a voice, they believe violence is a way to get
(07:04):
your message across. And I do feel there's some of
that happening on the political side. But I want you
to reflect for a moment about Kirk. Increasingly, and I've
watched him over many years. He started as kind of
blatantly political and partisan, I would say, talking about the
issues the free market and the issues of the party
(07:24):
that he championed. As time went on, and I guess
this came with maturity, and as he was married and
had children, he began to focus on faith and family
and encouraging young people, particularly young men, go get married
and have a family. So you realize what this is
all about. That really, that striving for holiness and God
became the centerpiece of his message.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Did that make him a target? Do you think?
Speaker 5 (07:49):
Yeah? I think it's all of the piece really, And
I think you're exactly right in tracing that in Charlie,
because I, like you, I watched that development and I
was really quite surprised to see a political leader articulating
his faith as as solidly as he did. You know,
this wasn't euphemisms, This wasn't flourish and many politicians speak
(08:15):
about well, let's pray and you know all this kind
of thing. Now, he knew what he was talking about,
he knew what the core of the faith was. But
then he had this ability to reach beyond that and
respect people who disagreed with him and ask him why.
They asked him why he disagreed, They disagreed, And I
think the hatred of a person like that so compelling,
(08:39):
so reasonable, is what produces this.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, I want to bring in Gordon Chang, who's a
international expert. Of course I always turned to Gordon about
the situation in the East.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
But Gordon, I want to get.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Your reflections on this, on Charlie Kirk and this assassination
and put it in a goal context. How does it
fit into what we see in other countries. I mean,
there are political assassinations abroad. It's something we're unaccustomed to,
except in recent memory with Donald Trump. Something we were
unaccustomed to here in the United States.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
Raymond, this reminds me of nineteen sixty eight. You know,
you had before that, in sixty three the assassination of
President Kennedy. But in sixty eight the assassinations of Robert
Kennedy and of course Martin Luther King. The United States
was in turmoil. Eventually we were able to reconstitute ourselves.
(09:38):
We will be able to do that again. But the
most important thing I believe is that we do have
to have faith, because that does bind families together, communities,
and of course the nation.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, and you know, Father, you mentioned it. Charlie was
such a curious guy. You know, he was self taught.
He didn't go to college. I mean, he went to
high school, but he didn't go to college. Built that organization,
but he read vociferously, and he always was so curious
about how things were done, how you did this. He
would always ask me questions about framing arguments and jokes
(10:14):
I would make. He was very curious about those things,
and I think as time went on, he realized this
is the only answer to all these problems that ail us.
It's faith, it's family, it's community, and that message was
beginning to emerge. How horrible that it was cut short.
But what are the political consequences of this? Do you
(10:34):
think is what we are seeing the result of heated
rhetoric and the demonization of people rather the engagement of
ideas that Charlie Kirk really embodied.
Speaker 5 (10:44):
Who knows what's going to happen from this. It's going
to depend on what we do in the next few
days and months ahead, and whether leaders can emerge who
can really kind of bring this whole thing together. I
think one of the great things that could happen now.
And I don't want in any way to appear partisan.
(11:07):
And I don't know the motives behind the person who
murdered Charlie but I think the left needs to apologize
for the rhetoric and tone it down. I would like
to see some kind of gathering of people one on
one in group where we can have not just a
(11:31):
ornamental conversation, but a real conversation where we disagree in charity.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
You know.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
I think that Robbie George and Cornell West exemplify this
so beautifully. If we can follow a model like that,
I think we can move toward a healing. But there
are great cultural plates that have to move right now
if we're going to avoid the abyss.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, Gordon, do you think the heated rhetoric is It's
such a fever pitch, and the demonization of people not
ideas has sort of poisoned the well in our political
system and media.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
I might add, Yeah, it certainly has poisoned the well.
But you can have an event like this, an assassination
of a beloved figure. It can change the politics, It
can change the culture right away because people understand how
dangerous this has become, and people then understand the consequence
of their words and actions.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Well, I got to tell you I've been talking to
a lot of young people, my children included, on campuses
about four different campuses.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
There is a.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
There is certainly an upsetment and a deep wound that's
been inflicted through this. But these kids are motivated and focused,
and I worry that you don't want them to tip
into anger. But they are certainly on fire now and galvanized.
And you know, I'm hearing things like I'm not no,
there's no more hiding. I'm going to tell everybody what
(13:04):
I think, which I think might be. You know, depending
on how you do that, you can go down bad
ends there.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
But especially especially in the life of a young person
where you're just coming alive to these social issues, you
think of it as a stage. How am I going
to formulate my positions? How am I going to interact
with people? But an event like this brings home the
reality of what we're talking about, and if it sobers
(13:34):
people and deepens commitment to the kind of conversation that
Charlie wanted to have, the pursuit of truth above everything else,
then maybe some good can come from this great tragedy.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Well.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I hope everyone will keep the repose of Charlie Kirk's
soul and the consolation of his family, his wife Erica,
their children, and their prayers and God rest his soul.
To return to a story that we covered last week, Father,
this LGBT jubilee in Rome. Yes, look, this story remains
(14:09):
rather murky. Vatican spokesman Matteo Bruni was asked about the
Vatican involvement in this LGBT jubilee, and he told an
Italian journalist this quote. The event itself was organized by
Tenda d Giornata without the involvement of the Holy See,
except for matters concerning organizational aspects connected with the officers
(14:33):
that oversee the jubilee activities.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Father, your reaction to this non explanation, explanation and what
does it tell you?
Speaker 5 (14:43):
The first thing we need to do is look at
the backdrop of what's going on. We're in the middle
of a transition and a papacy, and what policies were
established prior to this new papacy. With regard to how
groups are vetted and coming in, I really simply don't know.
I don't remember twenty five years ago groups coming in
(15:03):
and being vetted and things like that. My understanding of
it was all you had to do was go on
a website and say we want to be on a
pilgrimage and we're coming. And the logistical stuff that the
Potovoce is speaking about is that stuff, but not a
seal of approval of the different groups that are thinking.
(15:25):
And from my perspective, by all means come, pray, come
through the holy door, go to confession. You know, all
of the things that are part and parcel of what
it means to make a pilgrimage during a jubilee. This
is one thing. The next thing is what happens on
the inside. And I can't help but pray and think
(15:47):
that there are a lot of very embarrassed gay people
at what they saw inside Saint Peter's basilica, kind of
like that event that took place at Saint Patrick's cathedral.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Lee.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
I think this is very comparable to that. Not keeping
your eye on who's coming in the door.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
M yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Well, they again they used it as a stage and
ground for a political argument.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
And then you had James Martin. Father Martin went out
and basically worked the press.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
He had a papal audience and he walked out to
the Reuters and the AP cameras and you know, started
spinning the story instantly, which became part and parcel of
defining what was ultimately a private pilgrimage that became or
felt like a Vatican sanctioned event, and the Vatican was
whether they were whether they were stupidly twisted and used here,
(16:38):
or they were complicit. It's a it's a mixed message
that they're sending, and.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
It's confusion in the middle of this transition, right, I
think we need I've seen a lot of online criticism
of the Pope, and I don't think that comes into
play here. I think that he doesn't have his hands
around everything yet. And we're going to talk for a moment.
I think in a mound about China, I think that
(17:06):
that also is part of this whole thing.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Okay, so you're right.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
It off to kind of the old hand still holding
the rudder here, and the Pope hasn't quite gotten control
of all the staff.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
There's a lot of sloppiness for the last decade, and
this is sloppy. Yeah, and this Pope doesn't speak to
me about sloppiness.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah, before I get to China.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Father, an Italian priest, was just suspended for hosting a
live stream where he said the reforms of the Second
Vatican Consul were incompatible with Catholic teaching.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
So you know, you had swift punishment.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Here, and yet you have the embrace of notions and
ideas and even ideologies at odds with church teaching. At
least that's the public perspective when you have something like
this jubilee happening under the you know, under the dome
of Saint Peter's.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
It's scandalous. And again, in the same way that we
talked about the reaction to Charlie Kirk's assassination being perhaps
an impetus for some good, this really puts things on
the table and I'm hoping that people realize and I
hope that that again is realizing you can't just not
(18:20):
pay attention to who's applying to come in and what
they're going to do when they get there.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
I want to move on now.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Before we move on to this China topic, I have
to mention our sponsor, the folks at Taylor for Gone
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(18:47):
they can help you and you can support our work
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Speaker 2 (18:51):
Arroyo dot com.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Father Gordon Chang, I want to move to China and
foreign policy here. This week announced that Pope Leo has
suppressed two Chinese dioceses is established by Pope Pious the
Twelfth in the nineteen forties. He also erected a new diocese,
the Diocese of xiang Gi Kiao. I hope I'm pronouncing
(19:16):
that right. This is a diocese created by the Communist Party, Gordon,
what does the acquiescence of the Holy See to the
Chinese government mean in your mind?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
What does it indicate?
Speaker 6 (19:28):
It means that the Chinese now are not only arrogant,
but they think that they can get their way and
they can force the Church to do what it wants.
You know, there's always been a question of the boundaries
of these dioceses, and Beijing won you know, Pope Leo
gave him what they wanted. And the other thing that
I found really distressing, Raymond, was that there was no
(19:50):
mention in the official announcement of the Bishop Augustine Choi Tai,
who has been detained by Chinese authorities twenty twenty one
and there are reports that he has been forced into
hard labor, so there needs to be an official announcement
of this. The pulpe needs to make sure that he
(20:13):
is freed. And also all the other Catholics and Christians
who have been disappeared and put into these labor camps
for no reason but their faith and Gordon.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
This is really tied. We should explain to people.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And before I get into the nitty gritty of these dioceses,
there was a China There is a China Vatican Pact
that was crafted in twenty eighteen by Pope Francis and
the still sitting amazingly Secretary of State in the Vatican,
Cardinal Petro Paroline. They crafted this with China and it
(20:50):
gave the CCP the Chinese authorities say over the selection
of bishops, if not the approval of them.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Why is that? God? Why is that such a bad idea?
At this point, what have we have they learned? Anything?
Have we learned anything in the ensuing years.
Speaker 6 (21:08):
Well, we've learned that the Communist Party failed to honor
it's part of the agreement, which was really one sided
in favor of the party. The other thing we learned
was that the Vatican doesn't learn because that twenty eighteen
agreement has been extended, most recently in October of last year.
And we also learned that the Communist Party now has
(21:30):
extraordinary influence and leverage over the Church. You know, I'm
not a Catholic, but I do go to Catholic services
because my family is. And the one thing that I've
been taught by my wife is that martyrdom is central
to Catholicism. And what this agreement has done, and you
(21:51):
guys can correct me because you know more about theology
than I ever will, But what this agreement has done
is taken away the possibility of martyrdom from catholic and
that is wrong. No one wants a Catholic to suffer,
or anybody else for that matter. But the point is
that some people need to stand up for their faith
and when they do, this agreement undermines them entirely, and
(22:14):
that's just wrong.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, Father, lean into that. What does it mean? What
are the importance a of martyrs and b a vibrant
expression of a faith even in a repressive place like China.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Yes, well, of course, the ancient phrase dating from the
first century is that the blood of the martyrs is
the seed of Christians, and where the church is been
persecuted is where it grows. I mean, that's what happened
in Rome. That's what caused Rome eventually to convert. In
effect on the question of I mean, there's no nothing
(22:58):
stopping people from standing worth as martyrs now. I mean,
you have a Cardinal Zen in Hong Kong. Now. The
only reason he has been martyrs because the Chinese haven't
directly martyred him, you know, but he's certainly there and available.
Jimmy Lai is another one, and they're careless others and
(23:20):
those we don't know about. So let me just back
up for a moment and say that I agree with
everything that Jordan Gordon has said with regard to this agreement,
and it really predates that even to the Pontificate of Benedict,
where where that Chinese letter, the letter to to China
(23:41):
came out. I remember Zen was very concerned about that,
and again Paolin was involved in the drafting of that,
and I think all of that is the case. But
to go back to what I was saying earlier, we
have to remember the backdrop of this. This is a
new pontificate and the China thing is in normously important
(24:01):
for any number of reasons, not to mention the numbers
of people that are involved. And I think the I
think this realignment of the diocese was along the lines
of the geography that the Communist Party has set up,
you know, the new boundaries of different localities, and so
(24:23):
that the Vatican went along with that. What I don't
think is that the Pope yet has delved into this.
And I can't help but think that this is one
of the first things on his agenda as he's putting
his arms around you know, he's been in audiences constantly,
just had a few weeks in Castel Gandolfo to kind
(24:45):
of look at things. And I don't think he's going
to act dramatically in this. It doesn't seem to be
his personality. And I think he has that. You remember
the advice that he gave to the bishop and was
Charlotte in South Carolina, and this is Prevost giving the
(25:05):
advice to the bishop going in, don't do anything for
a year, get to know what's going on, and then
make decisions. Because not that the bishop abided by.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Heavy he didn't listen.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
No, now he's got a bigger.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Mess that is insight into how he thinks, and maybe
he's is a waiting period.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
But the problem here is father just to play Devil's
advocate or maybe angels advocate. The problem is there are
countless souls being killed in prisons and put under house arrest,
and we're talking faithful bishops.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Bishop ma.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I mean, I could run through the whole line, including
our friend Jimmy Lai, who I'll get to in a moment,
But I want to get into the implications of suppressing
these two long standing dioceses and replacing them with the
Communist Party creation. For this reason, it's important they suppressed.
In doing so, they blew out the traditional boundaries that
(26:05):
Pius the twelfth that established. They're not cohering with cities
as established by the Chinese Communists. But more importantly, they
have suppressed an underground faithful bishop, and that, it seems
to me, is a major challenge that you just can't
sit back and say, I'm going to pray at cost
of Gondolfo and walk the gardens for a year to
figure out what I do. Gordon Chang, I'll give you
(26:27):
the first crack at that, and then I'll go to Father.
Speaker 6 (26:30):
Oh, yeah, that's so critical because there are so many
brave Catholics in China and really the Pope doesn't stand
behind them, and that is a message that is I
think undermines the church. My sense, Raymond, and I don't
know this, but my sense is that you know, you
have the underground Protestant congregations. They have, as the Father said,
(26:55):
they have flourished because of persecution. I think what also
is how happening is that they're getting converts from the
Catholic Church because the church has aligned with the Communist
Party and people understand they cannot pray in the patriotic
Catholic Church because of various reasons. So I worry about that.
(27:16):
I mean, I'm a Protestant, but the point is, yeah,
we shouldn't be seeing an erosion of Catholicism in China
where it is just critical for people to adhere too.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Father s Rika, why is the Holy See do you
think so ready to give in to the Communist party?
And why keep that secret Vatican Chinese deal in place
at all?
Speaker 5 (27:41):
Well, again, I think we're talking about a transition here,
and I suppose if you had been elected Pope, we
would have seen a lot more action on this topic,
not help the church. But you know, I'm just thinking myself,
having been a pastor coming into a situation, having to
(28:02):
know all the nuances of the situation, where all the
gears are, and how you move a thing along, and
with the greater worry of splitting the church. You know,
if we move to I'm not talking about just China here,
but if you move too peremptorily, like it's you know,
(28:23):
changing course in a ship. It has to go around
in order to go the other way. It can't just
turn on a dime. And I'd like to have this
conversation here from now and see what has happened.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Gordon, What do we know about this Chinese deal with
the Vatican? I mean, I know there's a shroud of silence,
and I know it's a secret deal. But in the
way it's played out, what do we know?
Speaker 6 (28:51):
Well, the way it's played out is that the Communist
Party has violated the terms that we know about in
terms of bishops and the way the faith, what Catholics
can do in China. The Communist Party has basically said
nobody under the age of eighteen, may you know attend
(29:12):
services and all the rest of it, and the Vatican
has agreed to that. So there's a lot, of course
that we don't know. But the point is that the
terms that are public, the Communist Party has openly violated them,
and this is the important point. The Vatican has not complained.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, yeah, well does it, Father, I'm going to tie
this in. Does this partially explain the Vatican silence surrounding
the case of our friend Jimmy Lai. I interviewed Sebastianlie,
Jimmy Son and Jimmy Lfe. For those of you who
don't know media Magnet, imagine him as sort of the
Rupert Murdoch of Hong Kong. He was a media magnet,
owned a paper, he ran articles that covered the democracy movement,
(30:00):
and for that he and his staff was arrested in
the entire operation shutdown. Rather than leave town, get out,
he's a UK citizen, he stayed there and he's now
been imprisoned and his trial just ended for allegedly violating.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
A national security law.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Father, your take on the Vatican silence about this very
big case of not only an outspoken democracy advocate, but
a renowned Catholic in Hong Kong and China.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
Well, let me begin by reminding I don't have to
remind you. You know, I'm heavily invested in this. I
went to Hong Kong a year and a half ago
at some risk, you know, in order to let Jimmy
know that his friends had not abandoned him. I have
been a steady critic in the movie that I produced,
(30:50):
The Hong Konger, and in my writings and in public
statements all that, so you know where I'm at on
this topic. But when you say the silence of the Vatican,
the public silence of the Vatican has been deafening for
the last well since, since the secret deal was done,
(31:12):
I can't help but think. And that's all I can
say right now that there are private, direct cautions being
offered to the Communists about a need for a direction change.
And that's why I say, you know, to speak out
(31:33):
about even Jimmy. I would like to see the pulp
do something, if not say free Jimmy Lye, which of
course I would love to give some indication in that
great Roman manner of his concern, his paternal concern for
(31:56):
the situation. And I wouldn't be surprised if we see
something along those lines we just need. And Gordon, you
would know how to read the subtleties better than I
in this regard. I might know how to do it
from the Roman point of view, but from the Chinese
point of view. You know the delicacy of how she
(32:18):
must think of his dignity and his.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Pride and his stature on the world stage.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
But this is precisely father, why and Gordon you can
chime in on this. This is precisely why some statement,
even a nuanced one from Rome, would shine light and
shame you.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
And I was stunned. Gordon.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I interviewed Sebastian Lie Jimmy Lai's son a few weeks ago,
and I asked him point blank on air, you can
look it up.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Has the Vatican reached out to you?
Speaker 1 (32:47):
He ruefully said no, he's had no communications with anyone
at the Vatican, which I was shocked by, to be honest.
Speaker 6 (32:54):
Yeah, Well, you know there's a sense and this is
not just the Church, it's you know, government's all over
the place. The only way you can have constructive dialogue
with the Communist Party is behind the scenes, because they
get very upset. Well, the point is, many countries the
Vatican is included, has had these discussions with China and
(33:15):
they have been unsatisfactory. I think what you need to
do is you need to confront the Chinese in public,
because then they really worry and there's a risk in that.
There's no doubt there's a risk in that. But clearly
what people have been doing and what the Vatican has
been doing, just hasn't worked. So people need to try
something new. As I said, no guarantee of success, but
(33:38):
at least it may be successful.
Speaker 5 (33:41):
And Gordon, I agree with you. We need to abandon
We need to abandon this Cazaroli form of diplomacy that
failed in Eastern Europe and replace it with a John
Paul the Second style diplomacy that did confront this and
I think that that is absolutely what is needed.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yeah, and Gordon, Pope Leo and I want to I
want to circle the story here, bring it full circle.
Pope Leo recognized a father Wang xin Gui as the
new bishop of this diocese that he created. Now, this
priest is a longtime Chinese apparatic, and according to the
(34:25):
Pillar and other publications, the Pope did this while suppressing
an underground bishop. What's the message to the Chinese communists
in this Oh.
Speaker 6 (34:35):
It's just from that message is that the Vatican has
surrendered to Sichuan Teng and they're going to just press
the advantage because you don't get anything in return for
something like that. The problem is that they will just
go further and further and until the Vatican stands up
and pushes back.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Well, Gordon, you see the chatter online. I mean people
online have whispered to me it's money, that the Chinese
are giving the Vatican a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Do you believe that?
Speaker 6 (35:03):
You know? I don't think so. I mean, that would
not be the way the party would operate in this case.
I just don't know. But that strikes me as not
being true.
Speaker 5 (35:15):
I haven't heard a thing about that. I haven't heard
a thing about that in Rome, in any of the
circles that that I operate in. And in terms of
these changes and the bishop's appointment, all that was in
the pipeline, A lot of when a lot went into
(35:36):
the negotiation of that, and for that to have been
disrupted would have required a lot of knowledge and understanding
on the part of the Pope to see, if I
do this, what happens this, what happens that before he
has the opportunity to build the entire architecture of whatever
trajectory he is going to initiate.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Yeah, well, this is the danger of course of life
leaving the same captains in place as you come in
as commander. I mean, and the Pope has done that.
He kind of allowed all these people in place, but
many of these people were the agents of the chaos
and the difficulty that we're living through, not only Visavi China,
but Visavi. The liturgy, the marriage, basic doctrine is up
(36:19):
for grabs. So look, I get it. The Pope has
a lot of fires he needs to put out. But
if you don't have control of your stations, that's impossible.
Describe the sunsization process that we've been seeing in Catholic practice,
Gordon in China. I want to get into this because
I don't think people understand it's not just appointment of
(36:41):
bishops or a patriotic church, which is a government subscribed
and monitored church in the Catholic sense. What have they
done to actually Chinese if you will sionize the content
of the church, what it's teaching, what's being said.
Speaker 6 (37:00):
The images of Jesus have been replaced by images of siege.
Impurn crosses have been taken down, Whole churches have been demolished,
and in terms of doctrine and what is written, it
has been totally changed so that it would be unrecognizable
to someone who knows the Bible. So basically God has
(37:22):
been taken out of the Bible as the Communist Party
has written it. So it's been a revolution in a
sense where it's become Communism, not Catholicism.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Father Furiko, I think that's true.
Speaker 5 (37:38):
Yeah, no, I think that's very true. And when I
was in Hong Kong, I spoke to a number of
people who are very concerned about what was going on
in Hong Kong. There's this bringing of the seminarians and
the priests and the nuns from Hong Kong to China
to undergo this kind of sinization. Seminars, so to speak,
(37:59):
even change the text of scripture. So what you're pointing
to here is absolutely right and of great concern. It's
a form of apostasy that's being foist upon the people.
The people I've talked to, however, even if they're somewhat discreet,
and the entire bulk of the Chinese people. Every now
(38:22):
and then you see interruption and then they retreat. So
this may be a cultural thing that I'm not you know.
You know, in my Italian home, you just have it
all out just so you're having it out now. But
I sense that the Asian approach is very different. But
it's bubbling. It's obviously bubbling.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Well, it's I mean, you can't pervert the scriptures. Once
the word of God is corrupted, what's the game. I mean,
that's the whole game. It's the conveniance of the Word
of God. When that's corrupted and perverted. It seems to
me your church follows suit pretty quickly. Father, before I
let you all go, what is this of Jimmy? Ly?
The trial is over. They had this kangaroo trial. The
(39:04):
poor man's been in solitary for years now. He's seventy
seven years old, in not great health.
Speaker 5 (39:12):
What do we know, Well, we know that they put
a heart monitor on him. That's why the the not
the sentencing, the closing arguments were close boned two days
in order to fit him with a heart minding device.
I know that he has diabetes and he just looks weakened.
(39:34):
So I mean, this is getting bad. And Sebastian of course,
is indefatigable in his father's defense and has really attracted
a lot of support around the world. And I happen
to know the family is praying. I mean seriously, this
(39:55):
is the real thing, and they understand that it's the
real thing.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, Gordon.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Recently, the UK government, you've heard a few little comments
here and there, but nothing full throated. Jimmy Lai is
a UK citizen. Where are they on this? I know
Donald Trump has mentioned that he should be freed.
Speaker 6 (40:15):
Yeah, the UK government has from the very beginning has
been very quiet, and only in the last month or
so have you heard anything from the Prime Minister at
Karl Kira Starmer. In contrast, President Trump actually came out
and said we're going to try and free Jimmy Lai
as a part of the trade negotiations. Trump said, we
(40:38):
may not be successful, but we're going to try. And
that's important. That shows the commitment of the United States
to freeing Jimmy.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
No, and it's important, and he represents something so important,
not only culturally, but I think spiritually for very belaguered
and persecuted people. Well, Father Roberto Rico Gordon chang our
honorary possible. Thank you both for being here and we
will leave it there. And if you want more Arroyo
Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on
(41:08):
YouTube or a podcast wherever you get yours on behalf
of our gallivanting posse who's away for the week and
Gordon Chang, Father Robert Serrico. Until the Posse rides again,
Stay the course, follow the light.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
I'm raiment Arroyo. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
Divine Providence Studios, and is available on the iHeartRadio, Apple
wherever you get your podcasts
Charlie Kirk's assassination tells us a lot about where we
are spiritually and culturally, and why did Pope Leo suppress
a pair of Chinese dioceses. The Prayerful Posse explores it all. Next,
(00:23):
Welcome to a very special Prayerful Posse. Be sure to
go subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful way to
support our work and totally free, So subscribe away, bring
friends and you can support our work at Raymondarroyo dot com.
A word about Charlie Kirk before I assemble today's Posse.
I knew Charlie.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I interviewed him.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
On Fox multiple times, texted him often. We talked about faith,
we talked about politics. He was one of the most
effective political activists on the scene. He was largely credited
with galvanizing the young vote for Donald Trump in the
last election. Well, this week, he was a shot murdered,
as many of you have heard, in front of a
college audience where he was engaging with excited crowds of
(01:06):
young people at a Utah campus.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Now, some have.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Said he was slain because of free speech. His opponents
didn't like what he was saying. I'm not sure That's
the reason I'm more persuaded to believe that he was
killed because someone or some group saw him as a
political threat. For Charlie Kirk, politics was an advocation, but
his faith in God was his real focus. He knew
(01:31):
what true religion was. His politics was merely an overflow
of that deeply held faith. For too many, politics has
become a religion, one worth killing for. After the gains
Charlie Kirk made with young voters and his continuing influence,
someone apparently thought the only way to stop him was
to kill him. What an evil, wicked, horrible thought. We've
(01:55):
seen a cultural pattern of this poisonous thought of late,
the multiple assassination attempts on President Trump's life, that poor
young woman stabbed in the throat by the repeat offender
on a train in Charlotte. In June, a shooter dressed
as a cop and killed a Minnesota lawmaker and her
husband in their home. Then there's the ongoing Lionization, the
(02:16):
cult status of Luigi Mangioni, who shot a healthcare executive
in New York City in the back. All of these
cases demonstrate the power I believe of the demonic and
a hatred for human life and dignity. But they also
have habituated us to the idea that those whom you
disagree with or take issue with for any reason deserve
(02:38):
to die. Last week, the Pope said, following that heinous
Minneapolis church shooting where little children were killed during mass,
that we have a pandemic of arms.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Perhaps he's right, but what about.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
The pandemic of hatred, the pandemic of ideology, the pandemic
of the demonic. When I watched before Charlie Kirk bleeding
from his wound, all I could think was how diabolical
this is a young father shot before his own child
and supporters who looked up to him. Whomever that sniper
was that killed Charlie, they probably thought they were ending
(03:18):
Kirk's efforts, killing his movement. What that sniper really created
were one hundred Charlie Kirks. I've spoken yesterday and today
with young people on college campuses, and they are hurting,
they're furious, but they're pouring all of that into continuing
Kirk's example of tradition, fatherhood, family, love of God, and
(03:42):
political activism. And that's really what Kirk was all about.
Kirk's wife was Catholic and Over the last few months
he began attending Mass with her at their local parish
in Arizona, and if you listen to his message in
recent days, he could not have been more clear.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Evil cannot exist. If there is no standard of good,
evil does not exist. Evil is just an opinion. If
there is no God, murder is not wrong. If there
is no God, stealing is not wrong. If there is
no God, and we believe it, we know as believers
that there is an absolute standard above us that we
appeal to. I think we, as pradence and evangelicals under
venerate Mary. She was very important. She was a vessel
(04:24):
for our Lord and Savior. There's something there. In fact,
I believe one of the ways that we fix toxic
feminism in America is Mary is the solution.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Young men are going back to church. That is legit,
that's happening because honestly, it's the only thing that they
can find. It's a life raft in this just tsunami
of chaos, total and disorder. They want something that has lasted.
They want someth that is ancient and that is beautiful,
some that has stood the test of time, some that's
not going to change.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Charlie Kirk loved God and his family, and those who
watched and listened to him certainly got that most important mess.
I want to bring now, Father Robert sir Rico in,
the founder of the Act and institute. Father, thank you
for being here. What does this represent? Do you think
in our history? This slaying of Charlie Kirk, this pattern
(05:13):
of political violence and assassination that we're seeing moving through
the culture.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
Well, it is a very sad day. And you have
articulated and outlined many of the problems. I would say
that if I were going to look at the root
of this thing, it is really the rejection of reason.
If Charlie represented anything, you know, I've heard people say
he was antagonistic, and he was disrespectfully, he hated people.
(05:42):
But all you have to do is go through his
ubiquitous presentations around this country and he would say, if
you disagree with me, come to the front of the
line and tell me why he exemplified. You know, I
didn't know him. We were in venues to get but
I never really got to know him. I would love
(06:03):
to have had a go around at dinner with him,
because I like a man who can reason and who
can keep his cool and really seek the truth. And
I think this diminishment of reason, which we see particularly
in the trans movement, where people don't want to debate it,
they just want to cancel you in one way or another.
(06:25):
We see it in the disrespect for human life and
the very fact that you can't talk about human life
and its dignity, the abandonment of reason in that regard,
and many many other issues where people are just so polarized,
and when people are polarized, they resort to violence.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Well, and also, Father, you know something I've been saying
for months. When you don't have a functioning opposition party
and you have one that is so damaged, it is
really unhealthy for the republic because what happens is the
people who are part of that feel so disenfranchised without
a voice, they believe violence is a way to get
(07:04):
your message across. And I do feel there's some of
that happening on the political side. But I want you
to reflect for a moment about Kirk. Increasingly, and I've
watched him over many years. He started as kind of
blatantly political and partisan, I would say, talking about the
issues the free market and the issues of the party
(07:24):
that he championed. As time went on, and I guess
this came with maturity, and as he was married and
had children, he began to focus on faith and family
and encouraging young people, particularly young men, go get married
and have a family. So you realize what this is
all about. That really, that striving for holiness and God
became the centerpiece of his message.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Did that make him a target? Do you think?
Speaker 5 (07:49):
Yeah? I think it's all of the piece really, And
I think you're exactly right in tracing that in Charlie,
because I, like you, I watched that development and I
was really quite surprised to see a political leader articulating
his faith as as solidly as he did. You know,
this wasn't euphemisms, This wasn't flourish and many politicians speak
(08:15):
about well, let's pray and you know all this kind
of thing. Now, he knew what he was talking about,
he knew what the core of the faith was. But
then he had this ability to reach beyond that and
respect people who disagreed with him and ask him why.
They asked him why he disagreed, They disagreed, And I
think the hatred of a person like that so compelling,
(08:39):
so reasonable, is what produces this.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, I want to bring in Gordon Chang, who's a
international expert. Of course I always turned to Gordon about
the situation in the East.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
But Gordon, I want to get.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Your reflections on this, on Charlie Kirk and this assassination
and put it in a goal context. How does it
fit into what we see in other countries. I mean,
there are political assassinations abroad. It's something we're unaccustomed to,
except in recent memory with Donald Trump. Something we were
unaccustomed to here in the United States.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
Raymond, this reminds me of nineteen sixty eight. You know,
you had before that, in sixty three the assassination of
President Kennedy. But in sixty eight the assassinations of Robert
Kennedy and of course Martin Luther King. The United States
was in turmoil. Eventually we were able to reconstitute ourselves.
(09:38):
We will be able to do that again. But the
most important thing I believe is that we do have
to have faith, because that does bind families together, communities,
and of course the nation.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, and you know, Father, you mentioned it. Charlie was
such a curious guy. You know, he was self taught.
He didn't go to college. I mean, he went to
high school, but he didn't go to college. Built that organization,
but he read vociferously, and he always was so curious
about how things were done, how you did this. He
would always ask me questions about framing arguments and jokes
(10:14):
I would make. He was very curious about those things,
and I think as time went on, he realized this
is the only answer to all these problems that ail us.
It's faith, it's family, it's community, and that message was
beginning to emerge. How horrible that it was cut short.
But what are the political consequences of this? Do you
(10:34):
think is what we are seeing the result of heated
rhetoric and the demonization of people rather the engagement of
ideas that Charlie Kirk really embodied.
Speaker 5 (10:44):
Who knows what's going to happen from this. It's going
to depend on what we do in the next few
days and months ahead, and whether leaders can emerge who
can really kind of bring this whole thing together. I
think one of the great things that could happen now.
And I don't want in any way to appear partisan.
(11:07):
And I don't know the motives behind the person who
murdered Charlie but I think the left needs to apologize
for the rhetoric and tone it down. I would like
to see some kind of gathering of people one on
one in group where we can have not just a
(11:31):
ornamental conversation, but a real conversation where we disagree in charity.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
You know.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
I think that Robbie George and Cornell West exemplify this
so beautifully. If we can follow a model like that,
I think we can move toward a healing. But there
are great cultural plates that have to move right now
if we're going to avoid the abyss.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, Gordon, do you think the heated rhetoric is It's
such a fever pitch, and the demonization of people not
ideas has sort of poisoned the well in our political
system and media.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
I might add, Yeah, it certainly has poisoned the well.
But you can have an event like this, an assassination
of a beloved figure. It can change the politics, It
can change the culture right away because people understand how
dangerous this has become, and people then understand the consequence
of their words and actions.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Well, I got to tell you I've been talking to
a lot of young people, my children included, on campuses
about four different campuses.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
There is a.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
There is certainly an upsetment and a deep wound that's
been inflicted through this. But these kids are motivated and focused,
and I worry that you don't want them to tip
into anger. But they are certainly on fire now and galvanized.
And you know, I'm hearing things like I'm not no,
there's no more hiding. I'm going to tell everybody what
(13:04):
I think, which I think might be. You know, depending
on how you do that, you can go down bad
ends there.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
But especially especially in the life of a young person
where you're just coming alive to these social issues, you
think of it as a stage. How am I going
to formulate my positions? How am I going to interact
with people? But an event like this brings home the
reality of what we're talking about, and if it sobers
(13:34):
people and deepens commitment to the kind of conversation that
Charlie wanted to have, the pursuit of truth above everything else,
then maybe some good can come from this great tragedy.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Well.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I hope everyone will keep the repose of Charlie Kirk's
soul and the consolation of his family, his wife Erica,
their children, and their prayers and God rest his soul.
To return to a story that we covered last week, Father,
this LGBT jubilee in Rome. Yes, look, this story remains
(14:09):
rather murky. Vatican spokesman Matteo Bruni was asked about the
Vatican involvement in this LGBT jubilee, and he told an
Italian journalist this quote. The event itself was organized by
Tenda d Giornata without the involvement of the Holy See,
except for matters concerning organizational aspects connected with the officers
(14:33):
that oversee the jubilee activities.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Father, your reaction to this non explanation, explanation and what
does it tell you?
Speaker 5 (14:43):
The first thing we need to do is look at
the backdrop of what's going on. We're in the middle
of a transition and a papacy, and what policies were
established prior to this new papacy. With regard to how
groups are vetted and coming in, I really simply don't know.
I don't remember twenty five years ago groups coming in
(15:03):
and being vetted and things like that. My understanding of
it was all you had to do was go on
a website and say we want to be on a
pilgrimage and we're coming. And the logistical stuff that the
Potovoce is speaking about is that stuff, but not a
seal of approval of the different groups that are thinking.
(15:25):
And from my perspective, by all means come, pray, come
through the holy door, go to confession. You know, all
of the things that are part and parcel of what
it means to make a pilgrimage during a jubilee. This
is one thing. The next thing is what happens on
the inside. And I can't help but pray and think
(15:47):
that there are a lot of very embarrassed gay people
at what they saw inside Saint Peter's basilica, kind of
like that event that took place at Saint Patrick's cathedral.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Lee.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
I think this is very comparable to that. Not keeping
your eye on who's coming in the door.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
M yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Well, they again they used it as a stage and
ground for a political argument.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
And then you had James Martin. Father Martin went out
and basically worked the press.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
He had a papal audience and he walked out to
the Reuters and the AP cameras and you know, started
spinning the story instantly, which became part and parcel of
defining what was ultimately a private pilgrimage that became or
felt like a Vatican sanctioned event, and the Vatican was
whether they were whether they were stupidly twisted and used here,
(16:38):
or they were complicit. It's a it's a mixed message
that they're sending, and.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
It's confusion in the middle of this transition, right, I
think we need I've seen a lot of online criticism
of the Pope, and I don't think that comes into
play here. I think that he doesn't have his hands
around everything yet. And we're going to talk for a moment.
I think in a mound about China, I think that
(17:06):
that also is part of this whole thing.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Okay, so you're right.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
It off to kind of the old hand still holding
the rudder here, and the Pope hasn't quite gotten control
of all the staff.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
There's a lot of sloppiness for the last decade, and
this is sloppy. Yeah, and this Pope doesn't speak to
me about sloppiness.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah, before I get to China.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Father, an Italian priest, was just suspended for hosting a
live stream where he said the reforms of the Second
Vatican Consul were incompatible with Catholic teaching.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
So you know, you had swift punishment.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Here, and yet you have the embrace of notions and
ideas and even ideologies at odds with church teaching. At
least that's the public perspective when you have something like
this jubilee happening under the you know, under the dome
of Saint Peter's.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
It's scandalous. And again, in the same way that we
talked about the reaction to Charlie Kirk's assassination being perhaps
an impetus for some good, this really puts things on
the table and I'm hoping that people realize and I
hope that that again is realizing you can't just not
(18:20):
pay attention to who's applying to come in and what
they're going to do when they get there.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
I want to move on now.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Before we move on to this China topic, I have
to mention our sponsor, the folks at Taylor for Gone
Capital Management, Faith, Family and Finances. I want to thank
them for supporting our Live Prayerful Posse event last week
in Arizona. Be sure to visit them taylorfregone dot com.
If you have any investment questions or family financial needs,
(18:47):
they can help you and you can support our work
by donating at Raymond.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Arroyo dot com.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Father Gordon Chang, I want to move to China and
foreign policy here. This week announced that Pope Leo has
suppressed two Chinese dioceses is established by Pope Pious the
Twelfth in the nineteen forties. He also erected a new diocese,
the Diocese of xiang Gi Kiao. I hope I'm pronouncing
(19:16):
that right. This is a diocese created by the Communist Party, Gordon,
what does the acquiescence of the Holy See to the
Chinese government mean in your mind?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
What does it indicate?
Speaker 6 (19:28):
It means that the Chinese now are not only arrogant,
but they think that they can get their way and
they can force the Church to do what it wants.
You know, there's always been a question of the boundaries
of these dioceses, and Beijing won you know, Pope Leo
gave him what they wanted. And the other thing that
I found really distressing, Raymond, was that there was no
(19:50):
mention in the official announcement of the Bishop Augustine Choi Tai,
who has been detained by Chinese authorities twenty twenty one
and there are reports that he has been forced into
hard labor, so there needs to be an official announcement
of this. The pulpe needs to make sure that he
(20:13):
is freed. And also all the other Catholics and Christians
who have been disappeared and put into these labor camps
for no reason but their faith and Gordon.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
This is really tied. We should explain to people.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And before I get into the nitty gritty of these dioceses,
there was a China There is a China Vatican Pact
that was crafted in twenty eighteen by Pope Francis and
the still sitting amazingly Secretary of State in the Vatican,
Cardinal Petro Paroline. They crafted this with China and it
(20:50):
gave the CCP the Chinese authorities say over the selection
of bishops, if not the approval of them.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Why is that? God? Why is that such a bad idea?
At this point, what have we have they learned? Anything?
Have we learned anything in the ensuing years.
Speaker 6 (21:08):
Well, we've learned that the Communist Party failed to honor
it's part of the agreement, which was really one sided
in favor of the party. The other thing we learned
was that the Vatican doesn't learn because that twenty eighteen
agreement has been extended, most recently in October of last year.
And we also learned that the Communist Party now has
(21:30):
extraordinary influence and leverage over the Church. You know, I'm
not a Catholic, but I do go to Catholic services
because my family is. And the one thing that I've
been taught by my wife is that martyrdom is central
to Catholicism. And what this agreement has done, and you
(21:51):
guys can correct me because you know more about theology
than I ever will, But what this agreement has done
is taken away the possibility of martyrdom from catholic and
that is wrong. No one wants a Catholic to suffer,
or anybody else for that matter. But the point is
that some people need to stand up for their faith
and when they do, this agreement undermines them entirely, and
(22:14):
that's just wrong.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, Father, lean into that. What does it mean? What
are the importance a of martyrs and b a vibrant
expression of a faith even in a repressive place like China.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Yes, well, of course, the ancient phrase dating from the
first century is that the blood of the martyrs is
the seed of Christians, and where the church is been
persecuted is where it grows. I mean, that's what happened
in Rome. That's what caused Rome eventually to convert. In
effect on the question of I mean, there's no nothing
(22:58):
stopping people from standing worth as martyrs now. I mean,
you have a Cardinal Zen in Hong Kong. Now. The
only reason he has been martyrs because the Chinese haven't
directly martyred him, you know, but he's certainly there and available.
Jimmy Lai is another one, and they're careless others and
(23:20):
those we don't know about. So let me just back
up for a moment and say that I agree with
everything that Jordan Gordon has said with regard to this agreement,
and it really predates that even to the Pontificate of Benedict,
where where that Chinese letter, the letter to to China
(23:41):
came out. I remember Zen was very concerned about that,
and again Paolin was involved in the drafting of that,
and I think all of that is the case. But
to go back to what I was saying earlier, we
have to remember the backdrop of this. This is a
new pontificate and the China thing is in normously important
(24:01):
for any number of reasons, not to mention the numbers
of people that are involved. And I think the I
think this realignment of the diocese was along the lines
of the geography that the Communist Party has set up,
you know, the new boundaries of different localities, and so
(24:23):
that the Vatican went along with that. What I don't
think is that the Pope yet has delved into this.
And I can't help but think that this is one
of the first things on his agenda as he's putting
his arms around you know, he's been in audiences constantly,
just had a few weeks in Castel Gandolfo to kind
(24:45):
of look at things. And I don't think he's going
to act dramatically in this. It doesn't seem to be
his personality. And I think he has that. You remember
the advice that he gave to the bishop and was
Charlotte in South Carolina, and this is Prevost giving the
(25:05):
advice to the bishop going in, don't do anything for
a year, get to know what's going on, and then
make decisions. Because not that the bishop abided by.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Heavy he didn't listen.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
No, now he's got a bigger.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Mess that is insight into how he thinks, and maybe
he's is a waiting period.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
But the problem here is father just to play Devil's
advocate or maybe angels advocate. The problem is there are
countless souls being killed in prisons and put under house arrest,
and we're talking faithful bishops.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Bishop ma.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I mean, I could run through the whole line, including
our friend Jimmy Lai, who I'll get to in a moment,
But I want to get into the implications of suppressing
these two long standing dioceses and replacing them with the
Communist Party creation. For this reason, it's important they suppressed.
In doing so, they blew out the traditional boundaries that
(26:05):
Pius the twelfth that established. They're not cohering with cities
as established by the Chinese Communists. But more importantly, they
have suppressed an underground faithful bishop, and that, it seems
to me, is a major challenge that you just can't
sit back and say, I'm going to pray at cost
of Gondolfo and walk the gardens for a year to
figure out what I do. Gordon Chang, I'll give you
(26:27):
the first crack at that, and then I'll go to Father.
Speaker 6 (26:30):
Oh, yeah, that's so critical because there are so many
brave Catholics in China and really the Pope doesn't stand
behind them, and that is a message that is I
think undermines the church. My sense, Raymond, and I don't
know this, but my sense is that you know, you
have the underground Protestant congregations. They have, as the Father said,
(26:55):
they have flourished because of persecution. I think what also
is how happening is that they're getting converts from the
Catholic Church because the church has aligned with the Communist
Party and people understand they cannot pray in the patriotic
Catholic Church because of various reasons. So I worry about that.
(27:16):
I mean, I'm a Protestant, but the point is, yeah,
we shouldn't be seeing an erosion of Catholicism in China
where it is just critical for people to adhere too.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Father s Rika, why is the Holy See do you
think so ready to give in to the Communist party?
And why keep that secret Vatican Chinese deal in place
at all?
Speaker 5 (27:41):
Well, again, I think we're talking about a transition here,
and I suppose if you had been elected Pope, we
would have seen a lot more action on this topic,
not help the church. But you know, I'm just thinking myself,
having been a pastor coming into a situation, having to
(28:02):
know all the nuances of the situation, where all the
gears are, and how you move a thing along, and
with the greater worry of splitting the church. You know,
if we move to I'm not talking about just China here,
but if you move too peremptorily, like it's you know,
(28:23):
changing course in a ship. It has to go around
in order to go the other way. It can't just
turn on a dime. And I'd like to have this
conversation here from now and see what has happened.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Gordon, What do we know about this Chinese deal with
the Vatican? I mean, I know there's a shroud of silence,
and I know it's a secret deal. But in the
way it's played out, what do we know?
Speaker 6 (28:51):
Well, the way it's played out is that the Communist
Party has violated the terms that we know about in
terms of bishops and the way the faith, what Catholics
can do in China. The Communist Party has basically said
nobody under the age of eighteen, may you know attend
(29:12):
services and all the rest of it, and the Vatican
has agreed to that. So there's a lot, of course
that we don't know. But the point is that the
terms that are public, the Communist Party has openly violated them,
and this is the important point. The Vatican has not complained.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, yeah, well does it, Father, I'm going to tie
this in. Does this partially explain the Vatican silence surrounding
the case of our friend Jimmy Lai. I interviewed Sebastianlie,
Jimmy Son and Jimmy Lfe. For those of you who
don't know media Magnet, imagine him as sort of the
Rupert Murdoch of Hong Kong. He was a media magnet,
owned a paper, he ran articles that covered the democracy movement,
(30:00):
and for that he and his staff was arrested in
the entire operation shutdown. Rather than leave town, get out,
he's a UK citizen, he stayed there and he's now
been imprisoned and his trial just ended for allegedly violating.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
A national security law.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Father, your take on the Vatican silence about this very
big case of not only an outspoken democracy advocate, but
a renowned Catholic in Hong Kong and China.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
Well, let me begin by reminding I don't have to
remind you. You know, I'm heavily invested in this. I
went to Hong Kong a year and a half ago
at some risk, you know, in order to let Jimmy
know that his friends had not abandoned him. I have
been a steady critic in the movie that I produced,
(30:50):
The Hong Konger, and in my writings and in public
statements all that, so you know where I'm at on
this topic. But when you say the silence of the Vatican,
the public silence of the Vatican has been deafening for
the last well since, since the secret deal was done,
(31:12):
I can't help but think. And that's all I can
say right now that there are private, direct cautions being
offered to the Communists about a need for a direction change.
And that's why I say, you know, to speak out
(31:33):
about even Jimmy. I would like to see the pulp
do something, if not say free Jimmy Lye, which of
course I would love to give some indication in that
great Roman manner of his concern, his paternal concern for
(31:56):
the situation. And I wouldn't be surprised if we see
something along those lines we just need. And Gordon, you
would know how to read the subtleties better than I
in this regard. I might know how to do it
from the Roman point of view, but from the Chinese
point of view. You know the delicacy of how she
(32:18):
must think of his dignity and his.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Pride and his stature on the world stage.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
But this is precisely father, why and Gordon you can
chime in on this. This is precisely why some statement,
even a nuanced one from Rome, would shine light and
shame you.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
And I was stunned. Gordon.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I interviewed Sebastian Lie Jimmy Lai's son a few weeks ago,
and I asked him point blank on air, you can
look it up.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Has the Vatican reached out to you?
Speaker 1 (32:47):
He ruefully said no, he's had no communications with anyone
at the Vatican, which I was shocked by, to be honest.
Speaker 6 (32:54):
Yeah, Well, you know there's a sense and this is
not just the Church, it's you know, government's all over
the place. The only way you can have constructive dialogue
with the Communist Party is behind the scenes, because they
get very upset. Well, the point is, many countries the
Vatican is included, has had these discussions with China and
(33:15):
they have been unsatisfactory. I think what you need to
do is you need to confront the Chinese in public,
because then they really worry and there's a risk in that.
There's no doubt there's a risk in that. But clearly
what people have been doing and what the Vatican has
been doing, just hasn't worked. So people need to try
something new. As I said, no guarantee of success, but
(33:38):
at least it may be successful.
Speaker 5 (33:41):
And Gordon, I agree with you. We need to abandon
We need to abandon this Cazaroli form of diplomacy that
failed in Eastern Europe and replace it with a John
Paul the Second style diplomacy that did confront this and
I think that that is absolutely what is needed.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yeah, and Gordon, Pope Leo and I want to I
want to circle the story here, bring it full circle.
Pope Leo recognized a father Wang xin Gui as the
new bishop of this diocese that he created. Now, this
priest is a longtime Chinese apparatic, and according to the
(34:25):
Pillar and other publications, the Pope did this while suppressing
an underground bishop. What's the message to the Chinese communists
in this Oh.
Speaker 6 (34:35):
It's just from that message is that the Vatican has
surrendered to Sichuan Teng and they're going to just press
the advantage because you don't get anything in return for
something like that. The problem is that they will just
go further and further and until the Vatican stands up
and pushes back.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Well, Gordon, you see the chatter online. I mean people
online have whispered to me it's money, that the Chinese
are giving the Vatican a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Do you believe that?
Speaker 6 (35:03):
You know? I don't think so. I mean, that would
not be the way the party would operate in this case.
I just don't know. But that strikes me as not
being true.
Speaker 5 (35:15):
I haven't heard a thing about that. I haven't heard
a thing about that in Rome, in any of the
circles that that I operate in. And in terms of
these changes and the bishop's appointment, all that was in
the pipeline, A lot of when a lot went into
(35:36):
the negotiation of that, and for that to have been
disrupted would have required a lot of knowledge and understanding
on the part of the Pope to see, if I
do this, what happens this, what happens that before he
has the opportunity to build the entire architecture of whatever
trajectory he is going to initiate.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Yeah, well, this is the danger of course of life
leaving the same captains in place as you come in
as commander. I mean, and the Pope has done that.
He kind of allowed all these people in place, but
many of these people were the agents of the chaos
and the difficulty that we're living through, not only Visavi China,
but Visavi. The liturgy, the marriage, basic doctrine is up
(36:19):
for grabs. So look, I get it. The Pope has
a lot of fires he needs to put out. But
if you don't have control of your stations, that's impossible.
Describe the sunsization process that we've been seeing in Catholic practice,
Gordon in China. I want to get into this because
I don't think people understand it's not just appointment of
(36:41):
bishops or a patriotic church, which is a government subscribed
and monitored church in the Catholic sense. What have they
done to actually Chinese if you will sionize the content
of the church, what it's teaching, what's being said.
Speaker 6 (37:00):
The images of Jesus have been replaced by images of siege.
Impurn crosses have been taken down, Whole churches have been demolished,
and in terms of doctrine and what is written, it
has been totally changed so that it would be unrecognizable
to someone who knows the Bible. So basically God has
(37:22):
been taken out of the Bible as the Communist Party
has written it. So it's been a revolution in a
sense where it's become Communism, not Catholicism.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Father Furiko, I think that's true.
Speaker 5 (37:38):
Yeah, no, I think that's very true. And when I
was in Hong Kong, I spoke to a number of
people who are very concerned about what was going on
in Hong Kong. There's this bringing of the seminarians and
the priests and the nuns from Hong Kong to China
to undergo this kind of sinization. Seminars, so to speak,
(37:59):
even change the text of scripture. So what you're pointing
to here is absolutely right and of great concern. It's
a form of apostasy that's being foist upon the people.
The people I've talked to, however, even if they're somewhat discreet,
and the entire bulk of the Chinese people. Every now
(38:22):
and then you see interruption and then they retreat. So
this may be a cultural thing that I'm not you know.
You know, in my Italian home, you just have it
all out just so you're having it out now. But
I sense that the Asian approach is very different. But
it's bubbling. It's obviously bubbling.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Well, it's I mean, you can't pervert the scriptures. Once
the word of God is corrupted, what's the game. I mean,
that's the whole game. It's the conveniance of the Word
of God. When that's corrupted and perverted. It seems to
me your church follows suit pretty quickly. Father, before I
let you all go, what is this of Jimmy? Ly?
The trial is over. They had this kangaroo trial. The
(39:04):
poor man's been in solitary for years now. He's seventy
seven years old, in not great health.
Speaker 5 (39:12):
What do we know, Well, we know that they put
a heart monitor on him. That's why the the not
the sentencing, the closing arguments were close boned two days
in order to fit him with a heart minding device.
I know that he has diabetes and he just looks weakened.
(39:34):
So I mean, this is getting bad. And Sebastian of course,
is indefatigable in his father's defense and has really attracted
a lot of support around the world. And I happen
to know the family is praying. I mean seriously, this
(39:55):
is the real thing, and they understand that it's the
real thing.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, Gordon.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Recently, the UK government, you've heard a few little comments
here and there, but nothing full throated. Jimmy Lai is
a UK citizen. Where are they on this? I know
Donald Trump has mentioned that he should be freed.
Speaker 6 (40:15):
Yeah, the UK government has from the very beginning has
been very quiet, and only in the last month or
so have you heard anything from the Prime Minister at
Karl Kira Starmer. In contrast, President Trump actually came out
and said we're going to try and free Jimmy Lai
as a part of the trade negotiations. Trump said, we
(40:38):
may not be successful, but we're going to try. And
that's important. That shows the commitment of the United States
to freeing Jimmy.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
No, and it's important, and he represents something so important,
not only culturally, but I think spiritually for very belaguered
and persecuted people. Well, Father Roberto Rico Gordon chang our
honorary possible. Thank you both for being here and we
will leave it there. And if you want more Arroyo
Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on
(41:08):
YouTube or a podcast wherever you get yours on behalf
of our gallivanting posse who's away for the week and
Gordon Chang, Father Robert Serrico. Until the Posse rides again,
Stay the course, follow the light.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
I'm raiment Arroyo. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
Divine Providence Studios, and is available on the iHeartRadio, Apple
wherever you get your podcasts
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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