October 17, 2025 • 31 mins
A new purge of the Traditional Latin Mass is spreading across the United States and Europe — but why now? Raymond Arroyo and Fr. Gerald Murray dig into what’s driving this wave of restrictions and whether Pope Leo’s latest teaching document on the poor truly holds up. From the crackdown on the Tridentine rite in Knoxville and Chattanooga to the Vatican’s growing focus on immigration policy, this week’s Prayerful Posse explores the clash between faith, tradition, and politics inside today’s Church.
Raymond and Father Murray also tackle the controversy surrounding Jesuit artist Fr. Marko Rupnik and his upcoming canonical trial, the shocking desecration at St. Peter’s Basilica, and the ongoing divisions sparked by Germany’s LGBT pilgrimage. Together, they unpack what these stories reveal about the Church’s spiritual direction, its leadership, and its treatment of faithful Catholics devoted to the Latin Mass.
Join the conversation as the Prayerful Posse separates truth from ideology and defends the faith in turbulent times. Subscribe to the Arroyo Grande channel for more weekly discussions on faith, culture, and Catholic life, and visit www.raymondarroyo.com to stay connected with Raymond and the Posse.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
There is a new purge of the traditional Latin Mass
all across the United States and Europe, and we know
what may be driving it. And the Pope dropped a
new teaching document focused on the poor. Do his solutions
hold up the prayerful Posse. We'll explore it all next.
(00:24):
Welcome to an important prayerful Posse. Be sure to subscribe
to the show. It's a wonderful way to show your support.
Totally free, and you can visit Raymondroyo dot com to
always keep up with us. Let's convene at least part
of the Prayerful Posse. Canon Lawyer Priest of the Archdiocese
of New York, Father Gerald Murray, is here.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Father, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
This week saw a new phase in this ongoing assault
against the traditional Latin Mass. We've been reporting this for
years now. A new band has been announced in the
Diocese of Knoxville, Tennessee. Now that includes Knoxville and Chattanooga,
another big town. Letters from pastors there announced the TAILM parishes,
(01:03):
in participation with Bishop Mark Beckman, will quote begin to
transition to the ordinary form of the Mass after December
twenty eighth of this year.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Father, this drive to implement the late.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Pope's directive Pope Francis's directive against the traditional Latin Mass continues.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Why what do you think is driving this?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Well, I don't know, but I can suspect that Cardinal Roach,
who is in charge of the Dicastro for Divine Worship,
must have discussed this with Pope Leo, because it seems
that these bishops in America are all now moving to
suppress the Latin mass and parishes and then move it
either to one or two chapels or to some other arrangement.
(01:47):
But I can't believe that Cardinal Roach would do this
without discussing it with Pope Leo. So I'm wondering. We've
been hearing that Pope Leo was going to address this.
He talked about it in his interview with Elise Allen.
So you know, the question mark is are the bishops
here acting imprudently or is this following Roman orders?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, that's very interesting you bring that up. I read
the local letters that are.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Coming out, you know, banning the mass, and this is
the traditional Latin Mass, and that's not just about language.
As we've said time and time on the show, this
is the old right of the mass. The ancient right
of the Mass that existed before the Vatican counsul. It
has different intros, there are different prayers, things that were
completely omitted from the New Mass. So even if you
(02:37):
celebrated in Latin, there are missing elements then were in
that traditional tridentine right.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
As it's called now. Father.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
So far as you mentioned, there's no word yet from
Pope Leo on the matter. But this father, David Carter,
who's the rector of the Basilica of Saints Peter and
Paul there in Chattanooga, he writes in the letter, and
I'm going to quote this, he said. The local bishop
quote received a letter from the Dicastro, that's Cardinal Roche's office,
(03:06):
asking him to respond with his implementation of Tradisionist custodis
in the Diocese of Knoxville. Bishop Beckman reiterated that he
loves that people go to the Latin Mass. He does
not wish ill upon anyone who loves the ancient things,
but he very publicly professed an oath of fidelity to
(03:27):
the Roman Pontiff and the laws of the Church, the
same as every priest and deacon under Holy orders end quote.
So it looks like Cardinal Arthur Roach at the Vatican's
duct Trinal Office or rather Liturgy Office, is insisting that
the traditional Mass be stamped out.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Your thoughts on.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
This, Yeah, it certainly looks like that, and you know,
but part of the equation that's left out is Cardinal
Roche also has the power to issue dispensations and to
allow the Mass to continue in parishes. So the document
Tradition his Custodes is kind of self contradictctory because it
says at one point that this Mass cannot be celebrated
(04:04):
in parish churches, but that fails to take into account
that there are Latin mask groups in the Church, such
as the Fraternity of Saint Peter in the Institute of
Christ the King. They operate parishes, they celebrate the Mass
and parishes, and there were not Their rights were not
restricted at all by this document, thank god. But if
it's okay to have the Latin Mass celebrate by one
(04:26):
group of priests and a parish, why is it then
not allowed to have it for dioces and priests who
don't belong to one of those orders. So that's a
contradiction the Vatican has never grappled with. And then Secondly,
Cardinal Roach has granted dispensations to other dioceses to have
the mass and the parish. So if a bishop really
wants to have this, and I'm pleased with what the
(04:47):
bishop said, their bishop beck with he has to plead
with Cardinal Roach and point out that the spiritual welfare
of the faithful is the whole reason we have parishes.
And if you say your spiritual welfare doesn't count, you
have to leave. That's giving a counter message that it
makes no sense. I mean, here we are saying immigrants
are entitled get into the country illegally, but Latin mass
(05:09):
Cathes can't go to their paris to go to Mass.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
No, it's incoherent and it is. I have to say,
the letters, the emails that I've been getting over the
last few months have been heartbreaking. I mean, people are
so broken up about this. They've moved father from other
parts of the country to be near a community that
celebrated the Latin Mass, and now in Knoxville, Tennessee, that
mass is gone. They're getting rid of it. Also, this
(05:35):
term we're transitioning. The Mass isn't transgender, it's not in
need of transition. What does that even me, we're transitioning
the Mass. It's very odd nomenclature in all of this.
But the rector of the Chattanooga Basilica in saying that
he will celebrate or he's insisting he's going to celebrate
the two thousand and two Missile in Latin with all
(05:56):
the trappings and the incense, and that should be enough.
He continues, quote, we are not idolators to a particular right.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
As a parish.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
We do not reject the validity of the Second Vatican
Council or the new Order of the Mass. Don't be
Protestant if you feel so strongly about the nineteen sixty
two edition of the Missile that you would separate yourself
from union with the Church rather than follow the current
missile of the Universal Church. I urge you to repent.
This is nothing more than the spirit of Protestantism.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
End quote. Father, your reaction to that, I mean, this
is hard to talk.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
The suggestion is adherence to the old right is a
break with Rome, a break with the Pope.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Well, due respect to my brother priest. The last thing
I would call someone who goes to the nineteen sixty
two Missile celebration of the Mass is either idolatrous or Protestant.
They're neither, They're Catholic. If his critique is correct, then
the Fraternity of Saint Peter is promoting idolatry and Protestantism
by celebrating the traditional Latin Mass with full authorization by
(07:03):
the Roman Pontiff. Of course, this isn't the case. He's
What he's saying is that there is no ability for
anyone to choose to go to anything else than the
new order of the Mass, to which I would say, well,
then are you going to also outlaw the Anglican usage
missile which the Holy See approved under the Pontificate of
(07:23):
post Francis, And I've celebrated that mass. It's a beautiful
adaptation of the Roman missile and the Book of Common Prayer.
It's completely Catholic. Do people who want to go to
that are the idolatris because they prefer that to the
current Roman mission? Now, what they're doing, unfortunately, is over
exaggerating their claim in order to try to motivate people
(07:46):
to act. But that's not how we're supposed to do
things in the Church. Don't call someone a Protestant because
they want to go to the Mass. That was used
at the Second Vatican Council exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Well, my other big problem here, and you pointed it out.
I just attended an Armenian right Mass that was so
beautiful father, with the you know, they have the curtain
and the whole routine in the middle of the consecration
is done behind the Holy screen.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
It was incredible.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Why are we suddenly singling out the Roman rite, the
ancient Roman right, the Tridentine right as something for boden
or filthy or dirty when you have all of these
other beautiful rights in the Church that Catholics in full
communion with the Pope should be free to celebrate. I
kind of object to that priest suggesting that people go
(08:34):
to the Tridentine right of Protestants and they need to repent,
do they?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
You don't have to repent for loving the Mass that
was celebrated for you know, basically since the beginnings of
the church and then developed organically over time. This was
the mass that Saint terrez of Liz you attended and
helped her to become a saint.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Right?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Is she an idolat because she, if asked proper, probably
would prefer to stay at that mass. We don't know,
because of course she went to the Lord, she's a saint.
But you know, this kind of exaggerated language, Unfortunately, it's
basically defending what I think was a terrible mistake. And
I say that with all due respect of Pope Francis,
(09:18):
that he had a particular animus, meaning a hostility toward
the old Mass and the people who attended it. And
I think that hostility. You know, he's entitled to his opinions,
but as the pontiff, he's the shepherd. He shouldn't be
saying to the flock, if you don't agree with me
about the old Mass, you can't go to your parish
(09:40):
church and have it. But that makes no sense.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Well, his argument, it's reinforced in all of these letters
you're seeing coming out of Tennessee, Michigan, Charlotte, North Carolina,
all of them to have a theme in common, and
that is you, people attending this Tridentine Wright, are breaking unity.
And the way for you to be part of the church,
unified with the pontiff and the bishops is to attend
(10:05):
the new Mass.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Only that's you, that's the right of entry. But we
have all these other rights.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Who are all the quote quote union churches in the East.
These are all very at times very ornate, rights very
different from the Novas Orto. And there's not a felt
banner or a guitar to be seen. What's the why
the hang up with the tridentine?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Right, father? Why is that the target here?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
No, if they're if they are engaging in something to
attack the unity to the church, don't blame them, Blame
Pope Benedict because he authorized it. I mean, this is ridiculous,
but Pope ben is one of the greatest popes we've
had to theologically. He understood the liturgy to a highest degree.
He thought this was something beautiful, and he spoke about
mutual enrichment. Now, this is an exaggerated campaign to try
(10:54):
and stigmatize the love people have for the traditional Mass.
And it's not gonna work because it's not based in reality. Uh.
And it's sad because it reflects a completely deaf ear
when it comes to the cry of the of that
we could say the poor, I mean, who's poor into
Paris and that people are thrown out. Uh. You know,
(11:15):
this is really sad. I was hoping, I am hoping
that Pope Leo will address this, but this spate of
closures all over the place. Is making me wonder if
Pope Leo's approving this or not. Yeah, it's up to
him to let us know that. But you know, I'm
really upset that this is happening.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, I am too, And I'm and I'm stunned, frankly
because but as you said earlier, Cardinal Roach wouldn't be
doing this without a conversation with the new Pope. There's
just no way he would be sending these what are
essentially cease and desist orders to these dioceses saying, Okay,
when are you gonna when are you gonna shut down
that old Mass? When are you going to transition it
(11:52):
to the new Mass? I mean, this wouldn't be going
on without papal approval. And there was one line, Father, Uh.
The Pope gave a homily last weekend, and some people
pulled this out. He was actually doing an exegesis on
the Gospel, so you don't know if it actually points
a finger to the Latin Mass or not, but he
said something like there are types of worship that numb
(12:15):
the heart. Some people took that as an indication of
where he's going with this.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Your thoughts, Yeah, I don't know, because of course, if
he doesn't specify that it's about the Latin Mass, then
it may be rash to interpret it that way. But
certainly what numbs the heart is false worship, in other words,
engaging in superstition and magic and paganism. That's not what
we want. But again we get back to the central issue.
(12:41):
If people have a love for the traditional Mass, isn't
there room in the church for them? I mean, I've
celebrated that Mass many times over many many years, and
what I'm always happy about is the people who go
to it are the most grateful pro papal Catholic you
can find. They love the fact that jump all the
second in Benedict heard their cries and gave them something
(13:04):
which produces no harm. By the way, the whole idea
that there's disunity in the church. You want to know
where there's disunity is where people hate the Latin Mass
and even hate the New Order because they change it
so much. As in Germany, you won't find a heretical
experience that destroys the unity of the church. Go to
a German diocese where a woman gives the sermon, and
(13:24):
then you'll find that that is where the Mass is
becoming a source of scandal and disunity because the bishops
are allowing things that are forbidden.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah, and Father, I have to say, when you talk
of numbing the heart, what numbs the heart is a
kind of corporate, cold, distant, ever evolving liturgy that really
has no hold on tradition or is attached to anything substantive.
That's why you see the young people flocking to the
old right, and not only the old right, the old traditions. Look,
(13:53):
Mother Angelica had this right forty years ago. She was
complaining that in the sixties, seventies into the eighties, dismantling
of tradition and people felt at sea. Well guess what,
we're back to the future again. We're back where we
started with and now the old Mass is under attack. Anyway,
we'll leave that for now. We'll continue thought.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
One more thought. Yeah, remember that song from the sixties.
They'll know we are Christians by our love. Yes, I
can't sing that anymore because some people are experiencing the love.
You know, they didn't call the shoulder they got, you know,
the bombs rush at it.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
They'll know we are Christians because we're in the isolated
chapel in the woods.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yeah, the only the only people who could make the trick. Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Last week, Pope Leo made headlines once again. He was
caught on a hot mic at a meeting at the
Vatican with Bishop Mark Sites of l Paso, Texas. He's
the chair of the USCCB's Migration Committee, and the Pope
expressed his wish that the US bishops would speak more
forcefully in defense of migrants.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
This is a bit of that video.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
But father, what do you make of this and the
emphasis that Pope Leo seems to be giving to the
plight of migrants. This is a continuation of Pope Francis
legal or illegal is never really a distinction made?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, we see, But that's the crucial distinction, because the
issue here in America is not that foreigners want to
come here and live here. We have a great experience
with legal immigration in this country. You know, I lived
in a parish in northern Manhattan. You had a lot
of people who were legally there and they were from
different countries. Now, we have a tradition in this country
(15:34):
of inviting people in and that's good. Now, the question
here is law breaking to gain access to the society,
and then a legal permanence, and then all the things
that go along with it, and then all the abuses
that the system gets rise to, such as gangs coming
in from Mexico and Colombia and Venezuela, violent people selling drugs.
I mean, when you had the twenty million people in
(15:55):
the Biden administration time coming into the United States, was
this just an inn and walk in the park to
you know, to have better access to something in life. No,
this was a bomb's rush. And I use that just
as a colloquial term. The magrants aren't bombs, but some
of them are criminals. We have to recognize that. So,
I mean, why is it that you can barge your
(16:16):
way into the United States and then be defended by
the hierarchs. But if I tried to barge my way
into an episcopal palace and take up residence there and
bring in fifty other people, they'd call the police. You know,
you have to have order in society, in the nation,
in the household, and the episcopal palace whatever.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, Well, this is the this is the point the
church and a good solid society is ordered. There are laws,
there are rules, and we're seeing kind of the fudging
of all of that. But I do find it difficult
to unravel why this fixation with Rome on immigration policy.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
This is not your affair. Salvation of souls is your affair.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And look, if they were worried about that, like the
spiritual care of migrants, I'd be like, well, this is
their job. Of course they should be defending that. But
the enforcement of a law in a given country and
calling it inhuman when it's the actions of the criminal
elements in that country that are in human is bizarre
to me. His recent exhortation, which is a teaching document
(17:19):
delixit Tay the Pope calls for the recognition of the
human dignity of these aliens seeking migrating from one place
to another. But one of the human dignity fathers the
citizens and the country's right to protect those citizens.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Sure well, I mean there's a lot there, Raymond. Human
dignity consists in not breaking the law. Okay. The only
way you could say human dignity is promoted by allowing
illegal aliens in is by saying the law or prevent
they're coming in is an offense against human dignity.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
It's not.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
You know, we've pointed out many times in discussions here
in a DWTN almost entire world. Certainly most people third world,
if offered the opportunity, they would come into this country,
right because you know, you go from scarcity, poverty, no
rule of law, no medical help all the rest to
come in here. And there's a welfare state in law
(18:14):
at many places, and then there's a lot of economic opportunity,
et cetera. Now is that sustainable and can we do that?
Of course not. You couldn't have this country overwhelmed by
five hundred million people showing up. So laws that are
reflect the nation's desire to have an orderly process to
come in. They're completely just. The Church always recognizes that.
(18:35):
So I'm afraid we're getting into the adhering to a
left wing liberal agenda of globalism in which borders are
treated as an offense. There should be no nation states,
there should just be a world governance. That was hinted
at in one of the documents in the Pope Francis's pontificate.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
That's not where we.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Want to go. That's a denial of the order of
society that has arisen ever since man was created. You know,
we went from families to tribes to nations, and then
we have the international community, but doesn't destroy anything below it.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Well, as you pointed out last week, if this, if
this socialist utopia were so attractive to people, we'd be
seeing boats going from Miami to Cuba, not the other
way around. I mean, that's the direction of people are coming.
They're seeking a free market, which that is the cure
that has helped so many out of poverty, given people
enormous opportunities. But this document really downplays it. There's recent
(19:33):
people teaching sort of poo poos. In fact, the Pope
dismisses Now whether this is Pope Francis or now Pope Leo,
they both kind of take co ownership of this document,
but he dismisses all the data, what he call pseudo
data that supports a free market approach to helping poverty
and those in it.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
H Yeah. No, And this document, the new one from
Pope Leo, repeats with Pope Francis said, the economy that
kills and they're not talking about North Korea, Communist China, Cuba,
nicaragu or Venezuela. Let's look at facts. I don't know,
was it five million people have left Venezuela during the
(20:14):
communist dictatorship. They drug cartels are sponsored in part by
the government. You know, they jail opposition leaders. You know,
the woman who just won the Nobel Peace Prizes of
Venezuelan political candidate who couldn't be elected because it was
a rigged election and the real candidate was forbidden from running,
(20:37):
so she was the substitute. You want to talk about
economy that kills, where the human spirit is crushed, we
should have a papal document about communists inspired governments and
the evil they do to their people, not about free
market economy. And there's always room for improvement in any society,
of course, but the basic justice is shown that any
(20:59):
Venezuela who afflicted once it come to the United States,
which is worse.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah, No, it's elementary. I mean it's elementary.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
And as you said, there are always excesses in any
economy because people, people have access to centers, and there's
you know, there's there's quote chrony, capitalism and all kinds
of things that creep in. But critique that not an
entire system with a broad brush and point to some
utopia that simply doesn't exist. But anyway, it seems as
if the Pope's message is being received on the migrant front.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
There was a eucharistic.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Procession father by a pair of Jesuits this past week,
but they went to an ice detention facility in Broadview, Illinois.
They tried to gain access to the facility and were denied.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
What do you make of this?
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I thought we weren't supposed to politicize the Eucharist or
play politics at the communion rail well.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
I regret that they did that because this was a
staged performative act. They had absolute knowledge that without permission
they wouldn't be allowed in. So therefore they were doing
it to be filmed, being denied entrance which they knew
they were never going to have. The Holy Euchres was
exposed in the monstrance. We just had the eucharistic procession
(22:12):
across the US for the Eucharistic Congress in Indianapolis, and
people were kneeling on the sides, you know, as the
Euchres was being procesessed. Here, instead it's being accompanied by
a flash mob of activists and photographers and film crews
in order to make a point. I object to that.
(22:34):
I hope that the local bishop would speak to the
superior of those priests, because this is not the Holy Eugros,
the Holy body and Blood of Christ, and we do
not use it as a political tool to shame the police,
or ice or anybody else.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, yeah, well I love that.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
There was a non unhabited sister who afterwards took the microphone,
and the two Jesuits are standing there, one holding the
monstrance with the cope and everything. I don't know why
he's just standing out there, you know, like he's carrying
a walking stick. But she said, we tried to get
into the ice facility, but they wouldn't let us bring
the sacred bread to the inmates.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Sacred bread, I mean, there is no sacred bread. It's
the Holy body and Blood of Christ. Now call it
the bread of life. But we're careful that we don't
say this is bread. This is the body of Christ. Yeah,
so as you confuse people.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
So that was an interesting tell you know that we're
not even sure what we're doing here, but we're using
the external and I really I share your objection to this.
We shouldn't be using the objective, the traditions, the ancient
practices of the faith to ply our political agenda and
basically cause a riot, create a performative moment for the
(23:45):
cameras with a political end, not a spiritual one. So
it's the whole thing was heartbreaking to me watching it. Okay,
I have some happy news amid all this confusion. We
all need a spiritual recharge. I know I do, so
I'm going on a cruise to the Grecian Eye in
the footsteps of the Apostles Saint Paul and Saint John.
We're going to Philippi, Thessalonia, Athens, corinth Crete, Patmos, and Ephesus,
(24:10):
where I've never been, to visit the Blessed Virgin's House.
Monseigneur Christopher Nolty will be joining me for daily mass
and reflections. And space is very limited, but this eleven
day cruise, say in September of twenty twenty six, is
going to be incredible.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Go to Raymondarroyo dot com. You can reserve a spot there.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
It's going to be one of those life changing trips
Raymond Royo dot com. The Vatican announced this week that
it has chosen Father as a canon lawyer.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
You will love this.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
They've finally chosen judges to decide that case of the
disgrace Jesuit priest and artist Marco Rupnik, who has been
accused of sexually abusing over two dozen religious sisters. His
religious artwork is displayed all over the world, and up
until recently, it was on the Vatican's own website. The
Five Judges a women in clergy who do not hold
(25:01):
courial positions in the Vatican, the idea being they can
operate independently. Now, Rupnik is being charged farther canonically, But
the question is, I mean, I know he's charged with
sex crimes and a religious crime as well. How does
that work canonically?
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Well, let me say I'm glad that the judges were appointed,
but I'm disappointed we didn't get their names. And secondly,
I'm disappointed the Holy See highlight instead of their names.
The fact that they were appointing women to it justice
is irrelevant whether it's a man or a woman on
the bench. So they're trying to score political points by
saying women are going to be on the bench. Judges
(25:43):
are appointed because of their competence in the matter at hand. Now,
the charges specifically, we have to see what you know,
it's called a libellus or a charge sheet. What it
is that the Holy See is going to present to
these judges. But certainly there's enough evidence already out there
that the roup Nik has been an inveterate sex abuser
and took advantage of his position as spiritual director to
(26:07):
inflict criminal behavior upon people unwilling participants in his crime.
So I think he's going to be convicted and hopefully
removed from the priesthood.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Also this week rather bizarre story. A last Friday, a
man entered Saint Peter's Basilica. Father he climbed onto the
altar of the Confession beneath Bernini's Boldacano, disrobed and proceeded
to urinate on the altar in front of pilgrims who
were coming through the Holy Door and people attending mass
on side chapels. Poblio's ordered a penitential right to be
(26:42):
performed at the Basilica, which has been performed. Tell us
what that penitential right is and what do you make
of this? This is the third time we've seen somebody
desecrate the altar there at Saint Peter's.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Yes, no, well, I'll start with the penitential right. Of course,
that's to the sanctity of the House of God has
been offended by this horrendous behavior, which is gravely sinful
to a sacrilege being perpetrated in the House of God.
So the penitential right is performed, and that's a good thing.
That's a sign to the community that this kind of
(27:17):
behavior offends God and is horrific. But the second point
is you're right, this is the third time there's been
an outrage like this, which basically means a security service
at Saint Peter's Basilica is deficient, and it's deficient. It's
grave ways. The idea that you could have a person
(27:37):
do this kind of activity gain access to an area
we shouldn't be means that there's not enough security present.
And I know that's a cost of an expensive thing,
but it has to occur. There has to be more
plain clothes police in the church there at Saint Peter's
to protect it, because you know, you need to go
through metal detectors and all the rest to get in,
(27:59):
So that's good, but once you're in, this is the
kind of thing that's happening. So no, I regret this,
and I sympathize with the manager of Saint Peter's because
the last thing you want is to look at the
church as an area for potential crime scene. But you
have to face reality. This is the third time, and
people get in bold and if they see other people
get but they're going to do it, so has to
(28:21):
be a show of force.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
My concern is we're going to get the copycats. And
this guy may have been one. You the guy jumping
up there throwing the candelabras on the floor. There was
somebody else who did some of the crazy thing, and
then this man.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
This shouldn't happen.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
And you would think, because it's it is kind of
far removed from the public areas, you would think this
wouldn't happen or would be difficult. Somebody would grab the
guy before he got up, you know, a mounted the
steps to the altar. But for whatever reason, father, I
agree with you. The security there is just lacking, which
I can't fathom. Actually, in another story, I saw this
(28:57):
and thought of you. Auxiliary Bishop Ludger Schreppers in Essen, Germany,
condemned an act of reparation performed by four other bishops
last week. The act of reparation was made in response
to that so called LGBT pilgrimage that moved through the
Holy Door into Saint Peter's basilica. Back in September, Bishop
(29:19):
Shepherds said the following quote. It is a scandalous sign
of ecclesiastical narrow mindedness and an open rejection of all
those who long for a church that truly lives the Gospel. Father,
your thoughts on Bishop Shepher's reaction to the four brother
bishops and that prayer of reparation for this event.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Well, the story, of course, is that Bishop Shepherds is
using this comment opportunity to promote homosexual lifestyle in the church.
The church is not living the Gospel when we condemn
people who sinfully desecrated church by walking in with gay
pride flags and with obs entities written on their t shirts,
(30:02):
when men are holding hands as if they were married couple.
I mean this. And this was all provocative because this
was part of an organized pilgrimage promoting the homosexual lifestyle.
And you know that's a subject we've talked about, but
it was really outrageous and their way there are these
people were allowed to enter Saint Peter's, one of them
(30:23):
holding like a gay multi colored rainbow cross. That's the
bad that's the mess that goes against the Gospel. So
Bishop Shepherds unfortunately reflects the German hierarchy, which is basically
aligned with the secular liberal agenda on matters of sex
and morality, and he's outraged when fellow bishops do what
(30:47):
bishops have done for the entire history of the Church.
It was he's defend the doctrine of the faith. No,
he's the one that needs to change his way of thinking.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Father Jerry, as always, I thank you, grateful that you
joined us, and if you want more of the prayerful Posse,
subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or the
Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you get yours on behalf of
Father Gerald Murray until the Posse rides again, Stay the course,
follow the light. I'm Raymond. We'll see you next time.
(31:15):
Hopefully we'll bring Bob back next time. Father we miss them.
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
DP Studios, and is available on the iHeartRadio app or
wherever you get your podcasts.
There is a new purge of the traditional Latin Mass
all across the United States and Europe, and we know
what may be driving it. And the Pope dropped a
new teaching document focused on the poor. Do his solutions
hold up the prayerful Posse. We'll explore it all next.
(00:24):
Welcome to an important prayerful Posse. Be sure to subscribe
to the show. It's a wonderful way to show your support.
Totally free, and you can visit Raymondroyo dot com to
always keep up with us. Let's convene at least part
of the Prayerful Posse. Canon Lawyer Priest of the Archdiocese
of New York, Father Gerald Murray, is here.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Father, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
This week saw a new phase in this ongoing assault
against the traditional Latin Mass. We've been reporting this for
years now. A new band has been announced in the
Diocese of Knoxville, Tennessee. Now that includes Knoxville and Chattanooga,
another big town. Letters from pastors there announced the TAILM parishes,
(01:03):
in participation with Bishop Mark Beckman, will quote begin to
transition to the ordinary form of the Mass after December
twenty eighth of this year.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Father, this drive to implement the late.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Pope's directive Pope Francis's directive against the traditional Latin Mass continues.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Why what do you think is driving this?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Well, I don't know, but I can suspect that Cardinal Roach,
who is in charge of the Dicastro for Divine Worship,
must have discussed this with Pope Leo, because it seems
that these bishops in America are all now moving to
suppress the Latin mass and parishes and then move it
either to one or two chapels or to some other arrangement.
(01:47):
But I can't believe that Cardinal Roach would do this
without discussing it with Pope Leo. So I'm wondering. We've
been hearing that Pope Leo was going to address this.
He talked about it in his interview with Elise Allen.
So you know, the question mark is are the bishops
here acting imprudently or is this following Roman orders?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, that's very interesting you bring that up. I read
the local letters that are.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Coming out, you know, banning the mass, and this is
the traditional Latin Mass, and that's not just about language.
As we've said time and time on the show, this
is the old right of the mass. The ancient right
of the Mass that existed before the Vatican counsul. It
has different intros, there are different prayers, things that were
completely omitted from the New Mass. So even if you
(02:37):
celebrated in Latin, there are missing elements then were in
that traditional tridentine right.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
As it's called now. Father.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
So far as you mentioned, there's no word yet from
Pope Leo on the matter. But this father, David Carter,
who's the rector of the Basilica of Saints Peter and
Paul there in Chattanooga, he writes in the letter, and
I'm going to quote this, he said. The local bishop
quote received a letter from the Dicastro, that's Cardinal Roche's office,
(03:06):
asking him to respond with his implementation of Tradisionist custodis
in the Diocese of Knoxville. Bishop Beckman reiterated that he
loves that people go to the Latin Mass. He does
not wish ill upon anyone who loves the ancient things,
but he very publicly professed an oath of fidelity to
(03:27):
the Roman Pontiff and the laws of the Church, the
same as every priest and deacon under Holy orders end quote.
So it looks like Cardinal Arthur Roach at the Vatican's
duct Trinal Office or rather Liturgy Office, is insisting that
the traditional Mass be stamped out.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Your thoughts on.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
This, Yeah, it certainly looks like that, and you know,
but part of the equation that's left out is Cardinal
Roche also has the power to issue dispensations and to
allow the Mass to continue in parishes. So the document
Tradition his Custodes is kind of self contradictctory because it
says at one point that this Mass cannot be celebrated
(04:04):
in parish churches, but that fails to take into account
that there are Latin mask groups in the Church, such
as the Fraternity of Saint Peter in the Institute of
Christ the King. They operate parishes, they celebrate the Mass
and parishes, and there were not Their rights were not
restricted at all by this document, thank god. But if
it's okay to have the Latin Mass celebrate by one
(04:26):
group of priests and a parish, why is it then
not allowed to have it for dioces and priests who
don't belong to one of those orders. So that's a
contradiction the Vatican has never grappled with. And then Secondly,
Cardinal Roach has granted dispensations to other dioceses to have
the mass and the parish. So if a bishop really
wants to have this, and I'm pleased with what the
(04:47):
bishop said, their bishop beck with he has to plead
with Cardinal Roach and point out that the spiritual welfare
of the faithful is the whole reason we have parishes.
And if you say your spiritual welfare doesn't count, you
have to leave. That's giving a counter message that it
makes no sense. I mean, here we are saying immigrants
are entitled get into the country illegally, but Latin mass
(05:09):
Cathes can't go to their paris to go to Mass.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
No, it's incoherent and it is. I have to say,
the letters, the emails that I've been getting over the
last few months have been heartbreaking. I mean, people are
so broken up about this. They've moved father from other
parts of the country to be near a community that
celebrated the Latin Mass, and now in Knoxville, Tennessee, that
mass is gone. They're getting rid of it. Also, this
(05:35):
term we're transitioning. The Mass isn't transgender, it's not in
need of transition. What does that even me, we're transitioning
the Mass. It's very odd nomenclature in all of this.
But the rector of the Chattanooga Basilica in saying that
he will celebrate or he's insisting he's going to celebrate
the two thousand and two Missile in Latin with all
(05:56):
the trappings and the incense, and that should be enough.
He continues, quote, we are not idolators to a particular right.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
As a parish.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
We do not reject the validity of the Second Vatican
Council or the new Order of the Mass. Don't be
Protestant if you feel so strongly about the nineteen sixty
two edition of the Missile that you would separate yourself
from union with the Church rather than follow the current
missile of the Universal Church. I urge you to repent.
This is nothing more than the spirit of Protestantism.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
End quote. Father, your reaction to that, I mean, this
is hard to talk.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
The suggestion is adherence to the old right is a
break with Rome, a break with the Pope.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Well, due respect to my brother priest. The last thing
I would call someone who goes to the nineteen sixty
two Missile celebration of the Mass is either idolatrous or Protestant.
They're neither, They're Catholic. If his critique is correct, then
the Fraternity of Saint Peter is promoting idolatry and Protestantism
by celebrating the traditional Latin Mass with full authorization by
(07:03):
the Roman Pontiff. Of course, this isn't the case. He's
What he's saying is that there is no ability for
anyone to choose to go to anything else than the
new order of the Mass, to which I would say, well,
then are you going to also outlaw the Anglican usage
missile which the Holy See approved under the Pontificate of
(07:23):
post Francis, And I've celebrated that mass. It's a beautiful
adaptation of the Roman missile and the Book of Common Prayer.
It's completely Catholic. Do people who want to go to
that are the idolatris because they prefer that to the
current Roman mission? Now, what they're doing, unfortunately, is over
exaggerating their claim in order to try to motivate people
(07:46):
to act. But that's not how we're supposed to do
things in the Church. Don't call someone a Protestant because
they want to go to the Mass. That was used
at the Second Vatican Council exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Well, my other big problem here, and you pointed it out.
I just attended an Armenian right Mass that was so
beautiful father, with the you know, they have the curtain
and the whole routine in the middle of the consecration
is done behind the Holy screen.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
It was incredible.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Why are we suddenly singling out the Roman rite, the
ancient Roman right, the Tridentine right as something for boden
or filthy or dirty when you have all of these
other beautiful rights in the Church that Catholics in full
communion with the Pope should be free to celebrate. I
kind of object to that priest suggesting that people go
(08:34):
to the Tridentine right of Protestants and they need to repent,
do they?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
You don't have to repent for loving the Mass that
was celebrated for you know, basically since the beginnings of
the church and then developed organically over time. This was
the mass that Saint terrez of Liz you attended and
helped her to become a saint.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Right?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Is she an idolat because she, if asked proper, probably
would prefer to stay at that mass. We don't know,
because of course she went to the Lord, she's a saint.
But you know, this kind of exaggerated language, Unfortunately, it's
basically defending what I think was a terrible mistake. And
I say that with all due respect of Pope Francis,
(09:18):
that he had a particular animus, meaning a hostility toward
the old Mass and the people who attended it. And
I think that hostility. You know, he's entitled to his opinions,
but as the pontiff, he's the shepherd. He shouldn't be
saying to the flock, if you don't agree with me
about the old Mass, you can't go to your parish
(09:40):
church and have it. But that makes no sense.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Well, his argument, it's reinforced in all of these letters
you're seeing coming out of Tennessee, Michigan, Charlotte, North Carolina,
all of them to have a theme in common, and
that is you, people attending this Tridentine Wright, are breaking unity.
And the way for you to be part of the church,
unified with the pontiff and the bishops is to attend
(10:05):
the new Mass.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Only that's you, that's the right of entry. But we
have all these other rights.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Who are all the quote quote union churches in the East.
These are all very at times very ornate, rights very
different from the Novas Orto. And there's not a felt
banner or a guitar to be seen. What's the why
the hang up with the tridentine?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Right, father? Why is that the target here?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
No, if they're if they are engaging in something to
attack the unity to the church, don't blame them, Blame
Pope Benedict because he authorized it. I mean, this is ridiculous,
but Pope ben is one of the greatest popes we've
had to theologically. He understood the liturgy to a highest degree.
He thought this was something beautiful, and he spoke about
mutual enrichment. Now, this is an exaggerated campaign to try
(10:54):
and stigmatize the love people have for the traditional Mass.
And it's not gonna work because it's not based in reality. Uh.
And it's sad because it reflects a completely deaf ear
when it comes to the cry of the of that
we could say the poor, I mean, who's poor into
Paris and that people are thrown out. Uh. You know,
(11:15):
this is really sad. I was hoping, I am hoping
that Pope Leo will address this, but this spate of
closures all over the place. Is making me wonder if
Pope Leo's approving this or not. Yeah, it's up to
him to let us know that. But you know, I'm
really upset that this is happening.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, I am too, And I'm and I'm stunned, frankly
because but as you said earlier, Cardinal Roach wouldn't be
doing this without a conversation with the new Pope. There's
just no way he would be sending these what are
essentially cease and desist orders to these dioceses saying, Okay,
when are you gonna when are you gonna shut down
that old Mass? When are you going to transition it
(11:52):
to the new Mass? I mean, this wouldn't be going
on without papal approval. And there was one line, Father, Uh.
The Pope gave a homily last weekend, and some people
pulled this out. He was actually doing an exegesis on
the Gospel, so you don't know if it actually points
a finger to the Latin Mass or not, but he
said something like there are types of worship that numb
(12:15):
the heart. Some people took that as an indication of
where he's going with this.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Your thoughts, Yeah, I don't know, because of course, if
he doesn't specify that it's about the Latin Mass, then
it may be rash to interpret it that way. But
certainly what numbs the heart is false worship, in other words,
engaging in superstition and magic and paganism. That's not what
we want. But again we get back to the central issue.
(12:41):
If people have a love for the traditional Mass, isn't
there room in the church for them? I mean, I've
celebrated that Mass many times over many many years, and
what I'm always happy about is the people who go
to it are the most grateful pro papal Catholic you
can find. They love the fact that jump all the
second in Benedict heard their cries and gave them something
(13:04):
which produces no harm. By the way, the whole idea
that there's disunity in the church. You want to know
where there's disunity is where people hate the Latin Mass
and even hate the New Order because they change it
so much. As in Germany, you won't find a heretical
experience that destroys the unity of the church. Go to
a German diocese where a woman gives the sermon, and
(13:24):
then you'll find that that is where the Mass is
becoming a source of scandal and disunity because the bishops
are allowing things that are forbidden.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah, and Father, I have to say, when you talk
of numbing the heart, what numbs the heart is a
kind of corporate, cold, distant, ever evolving liturgy that really
has no hold on tradition or is attached to anything substantive.
That's why you see the young people flocking to the
old right, and not only the old right, the old traditions. Look,
(13:53):
Mother Angelica had this right forty years ago. She was
complaining that in the sixties, seventies into the eighties, dismantling
of tradition and people felt at sea. Well guess what,
we're back to the future again. We're back where we
started with and now the old Mass is under attack. Anyway,
we'll leave that for now. We'll continue thought.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
One more thought. Yeah, remember that song from the sixties.
They'll know we are Christians by our love. Yes, I
can't sing that anymore because some people are experiencing the love.
You know, they didn't call the shoulder they got, you know,
the bombs rush at it.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
They'll know we are Christians because we're in the isolated
chapel in the woods.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yeah, the only the only people who could make the trick. Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Last week, Pope Leo made headlines once again. He was
caught on a hot mic at a meeting at the
Vatican with Bishop Mark Sites of l Paso, Texas. He's
the chair of the USCCB's Migration Committee, and the Pope
expressed his wish that the US bishops would speak more
forcefully in defense of migrants.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
This is a bit of that video.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
But father, what do you make of this and the
emphasis that Pope Leo seems to be giving to the
plight of migrants. This is a continuation of Pope Francis
legal or illegal is never really a distinction made?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, we see, But that's the crucial distinction, because the
issue here in America is not that foreigners want to
come here and live here. We have a great experience
with legal immigration in this country. You know, I lived
in a parish in northern Manhattan. You had a lot
of people who were legally there and they were from
different countries. Now, we have a tradition in this country
(15:34):
of inviting people in and that's good. Now, the question
here is law breaking to gain access to the society,
and then a legal permanence, and then all the things
that go along with it, and then all the abuses
that the system gets rise to, such as gangs coming
in from Mexico and Colombia and Venezuela, violent people selling drugs.
I mean, when you had the twenty million people in
(15:55):
the Biden administration time coming into the United States, was
this just an inn and walk in the park to
you know, to have better access to something in life. No,
this was a bomb's rush. And I use that just
as a colloquial term. The magrants aren't bombs, but some
of them are criminals. We have to recognize that. So,
I mean, why is it that you can barge your
(16:16):
way into the United States and then be defended by
the hierarchs. But if I tried to barge my way
into an episcopal palace and take up residence there and
bring in fifty other people, they'd call the police. You know,
you have to have order in society, in the nation,
in the household, and the episcopal palace whatever.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, Well, this is the this is the point the
church and a good solid society is ordered. There are laws,
there are rules, and we're seeing kind of the fudging
of all of that. But I do find it difficult
to unravel why this fixation with Rome on immigration policy.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
This is not your affair. Salvation of souls is your affair.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And look, if they were worried about that, like the
spiritual care of migrants, I'd be like, well, this is
their job. Of course they should be defending that. But
the enforcement of a law in a given country and
calling it inhuman when it's the actions of the criminal
elements in that country that are in human is bizarre
to me. His recent exhortation, which is a teaching document
(17:19):
delixit Tay the Pope calls for the recognition of the
human dignity of these aliens seeking migrating from one place
to another. But one of the human dignity fathers the
citizens and the country's right to protect those citizens.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Sure well, I mean there's a lot there, Raymond. Human
dignity consists in not breaking the law. Okay. The only
way you could say human dignity is promoted by allowing
illegal aliens in is by saying the law or prevent
they're coming in is an offense against human dignity.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
It's not.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
You know, we've pointed out many times in discussions here
in a DWTN almost entire world. Certainly most people third world,
if offered the opportunity, they would come into this country,
right because you know, you go from scarcity, poverty, no
rule of law, no medical help all the rest to
come in here. And there's a welfare state in law
(18:14):
at many places, and then there's a lot of economic opportunity,
et cetera. Now is that sustainable and can we do that?
Of course not. You couldn't have this country overwhelmed by
five hundred million people showing up. So laws that are
reflect the nation's desire to have an orderly process to
come in. They're completely just. The Church always recognizes that.
(18:35):
So I'm afraid we're getting into the adhering to a
left wing liberal agenda of globalism in which borders are
treated as an offense. There should be no nation states,
there should just be a world governance. That was hinted
at in one of the documents in the Pope Francis's pontificate.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
That's not where we.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Want to go. That's a denial of the order of
society that has arisen ever since man was created. You know,
we went from families to tribes to nations, and then
we have the international community, but doesn't destroy anything below it.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Well, as you pointed out last week, if this, if
this socialist utopia were so attractive to people, we'd be
seeing boats going from Miami to Cuba, not the other
way around. I mean, that's the direction of people are coming.
They're seeking a free market, which that is the cure
that has helped so many out of poverty, given people
enormous opportunities. But this document really downplays it. There's recent
(19:33):
people teaching sort of poo poos. In fact, the Pope
dismisses Now whether this is Pope Francis or now Pope Leo,
they both kind of take co ownership of this document,
but he dismisses all the data, what he call pseudo
data that supports a free market approach to helping poverty
and those in it.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
H Yeah. No, And this document, the new one from
Pope Leo, repeats with Pope Francis said, the economy that
kills and they're not talking about North Korea, Communist China, Cuba,
nicaragu or Venezuela. Let's look at facts. I don't know,
was it five million people have left Venezuela during the
(20:14):
communist dictatorship. They drug cartels are sponsored in part by
the government. You know, they jail opposition leaders. You know,
the woman who just won the Nobel Peace Prizes of
Venezuelan political candidate who couldn't be elected because it was
a rigged election and the real candidate was forbidden from running,
(20:37):
so she was the substitute. You want to talk about
economy that kills, where the human spirit is crushed, we
should have a papal document about communists inspired governments and
the evil they do to their people, not about free
market economy. And there's always room for improvement in any society,
of course, but the basic justice is shown that any
(20:59):
Venezuela who afflicted once it come to the United States,
which is worse.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah, No, it's elementary. I mean it's elementary.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
And as you said, there are always excesses in any
economy because people, people have access to centers, and there's
you know, there's there's quote chrony, capitalism and all kinds
of things that creep in. But critique that not an
entire system with a broad brush and point to some
utopia that simply doesn't exist. But anyway, it seems as
if the Pope's message is being received on the migrant front.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
There was a eucharistic.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Procession father by a pair of Jesuits this past week,
but they went to an ice detention facility in Broadview, Illinois.
They tried to gain access to the facility and were denied.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
What do you make of this?
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I thought we weren't supposed to politicize the Eucharist or
play politics at the communion rail well.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
I regret that they did that because this was a
staged performative act. They had absolute knowledge that without permission
they wouldn't be allowed in. So therefore they were doing
it to be filmed, being denied entrance which they knew
they were never going to have. The Holy Euchres was
exposed in the monstrance. We just had the eucharistic procession
(22:12):
across the US for the Eucharistic Congress in Indianapolis, and
people were kneeling on the sides, you know, as the
Euchres was being procesessed. Here, instead it's being accompanied by
a flash mob of activists and photographers and film crews
in order to make a point. I object to that.
(22:34):
I hope that the local bishop would speak to the
superior of those priests, because this is not the Holy Eugros,
the Holy body and Blood of Christ, and we do
not use it as a political tool to shame the police,
or ice or anybody else.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, yeah, well I love that.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
There was a non unhabited sister who afterwards took the microphone,
and the two Jesuits are standing there, one holding the
monstrance with the cope and everything. I don't know why
he's just standing out there, you know, like he's carrying
a walking stick. But she said, we tried to get
into the ice facility, but they wouldn't let us bring
the sacred bread to the inmates.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Sacred bread, I mean, there is no sacred bread. It's
the Holy body and Blood of Christ. Now call it
the bread of life. But we're careful that we don't
say this is bread. This is the body of Christ. Yeah,
so as you confuse people.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
So that was an interesting tell you know that we're
not even sure what we're doing here, but we're using
the external and I really I share your objection to this.
We shouldn't be using the objective, the traditions, the ancient
practices of the faith to ply our political agenda and
basically cause a riot, create a performative moment for the
(23:45):
cameras with a political end, not a spiritual one. So
it's the whole thing was heartbreaking to me watching it. Okay,
I have some happy news amid all this confusion. We
all need a spiritual recharge. I know I do, so
I'm going on a cruise to the Grecian Eye in
the footsteps of the Apostles Saint Paul and Saint John.
We're going to Philippi, Thessalonia, Athens, corinth Crete, Patmos, and Ephesus,
(24:10):
where I've never been, to visit the Blessed Virgin's House.
Monseigneur Christopher Nolty will be joining me for daily mass
and reflections. And space is very limited, but this eleven
day cruise, say in September of twenty twenty six, is
going to be incredible.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Go to Raymondarroyo dot com. You can reserve a spot there.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
It's going to be one of those life changing trips
Raymond Royo dot com. The Vatican announced this week that
it has chosen Father as a canon lawyer.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
You will love this.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
They've finally chosen judges to decide that case of the
disgrace Jesuit priest and artist Marco Rupnik, who has been
accused of sexually abusing over two dozen religious sisters. His
religious artwork is displayed all over the world, and up
until recently, it was on the Vatican's own website. The
Five Judges a women in clergy who do not hold
(25:01):
courial positions in the Vatican, the idea being they can
operate independently. Now, Rupnik is being charged farther canonically, But
the question is, I mean, I know he's charged with
sex crimes and a religious crime as well. How does
that work canonically?
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Well, let me say I'm glad that the judges were appointed,
but I'm disappointed we didn't get their names. And secondly,
I'm disappointed the Holy See highlight instead of their names.
The fact that they were appointing women to it justice
is irrelevant whether it's a man or a woman on
the bench. So they're trying to score political points by
saying women are going to be on the bench. Judges
(25:43):
are appointed because of their competence in the matter at hand. Now,
the charges specifically, we have to see what you know,
it's called a libellus or a charge sheet. What it
is that the Holy See is going to present to
these judges. But certainly there's enough evidence already out there
that the roup Nik has been an inveterate sex abuser
and took advantage of his position as spiritual director to
(26:07):
inflict criminal behavior upon people unwilling participants in his crime.
So I think he's going to be convicted and hopefully
removed from the priesthood.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Also this week rather bizarre story. A last Friday, a
man entered Saint Peter's Basilica. Father he climbed onto the
altar of the Confession beneath Bernini's Boldacano, disrobed and proceeded
to urinate on the altar in front of pilgrims who
were coming through the Holy Door and people attending mass
on side chapels. Poblio's ordered a penitential right to be
(26:42):
performed at the Basilica, which has been performed. Tell us
what that penitential right is and what do you make
of this? This is the third time we've seen somebody
desecrate the altar there at Saint Peter's.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Yes, no, well, I'll start with the penitential right. Of course,
that's to the sanctity of the House of God has
been offended by this horrendous behavior, which is gravely sinful
to a sacrilege being perpetrated in the House of God.
So the penitential right is performed, and that's a good thing.
That's a sign to the community that this kind of
(27:17):
behavior offends God and is horrific. But the second point
is you're right, this is the third time there's been
an outrage like this, which basically means a security service
at Saint Peter's Basilica is deficient, and it's deficient. It's
grave ways. The idea that you could have a person
(27:37):
do this kind of activity gain access to an area
we shouldn't be means that there's not enough security present.
And I know that's a cost of an expensive thing,
but it has to occur. There has to be more
plain clothes police in the church there at Saint Peter's
to protect it, because you know, you need to go
through metal detectors and all the rest to get in,
(27:59):
So that's good, but once you're in, this is the
kind of thing that's happening. So no, I regret this,
and I sympathize with the manager of Saint Peter's because
the last thing you want is to look at the
church as an area for potential crime scene. But you
have to face reality. This is the third time, and
people get in bold and if they see other people
get but they're going to do it, so has to
(28:21):
be a show of force.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
My concern is we're going to get the copycats. And
this guy may have been one. You the guy jumping
up there throwing the candelabras on the floor. There was
somebody else who did some of the crazy thing, and
then this man.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
This shouldn't happen.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
And you would think, because it's it is kind of
far removed from the public areas, you would think this
wouldn't happen or would be difficult. Somebody would grab the
guy before he got up, you know, a mounted the
steps to the altar. But for whatever reason, father, I
agree with you. The security there is just lacking, which
I can't fathom. Actually, in another story, I saw this
(28:57):
and thought of you. Auxiliary Bishop Ludger Schreppers in Essen, Germany,
condemned an act of reparation performed by four other bishops
last week. The act of reparation was made in response
to that so called LGBT pilgrimage that moved through the
Holy Door into Saint Peter's basilica. Back in September, Bishop
(29:19):
Shepherds said the following quote. It is a scandalous sign
of ecclesiastical narrow mindedness and an open rejection of all
those who long for a church that truly lives the Gospel. Father,
your thoughts on Bishop Shepher's reaction to the four brother
bishops and that prayer of reparation for this event.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Well, the story, of course, is that Bishop Shepherds is
using this comment opportunity to promote homosexual lifestyle in the church.
The church is not living the Gospel when we condemn
people who sinfully desecrated church by walking in with gay
pride flags and with obs entities written on their t shirts,
(30:02):
when men are holding hands as if they were married couple.
I mean this. And this was all provocative because this
was part of an organized pilgrimage promoting the homosexual lifestyle.
And you know that's a subject we've talked about, but
it was really outrageous and their way there are these
people were allowed to enter Saint Peter's, one of them
(30:23):
holding like a gay multi colored rainbow cross. That's the
bad that's the mess that goes against the Gospel. So
Bishop Shepherds unfortunately reflects the German hierarchy, which is basically
aligned with the secular liberal agenda on matters of sex
and morality, and he's outraged when fellow bishops do what
(30:47):
bishops have done for the entire history of the Church.
It was he's defend the doctrine of the faith. No,
he's the one that needs to change his way of thinking.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Father Jerry, as always, I thank you, grateful that you
joined us, and if you want more of the prayerful Posse,
subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or the
Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you get yours on behalf of
Father Gerald Murray until the Posse rides again, Stay the course,
follow the light. I'm Raymond. We'll see you next time.
(31:15):
Hopefully we'll bring Bob back next time. Father we miss them.
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
DP Studios, and is available on the iHeartRadio app or
wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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