July 11, 2025 • 38 mins
In this explosive episode of The Prayerful Posse, Raymond Arroyo, Fr. Gerald Murray, and Robert Royal break down the latest seismic shifts in Rome. Is Pope Leo charting a bold new course or doubling down on the Francis Revolution? From his controversial Care of Creation Mass to the Vatican’s fierce debates over blessings for same-sex couples, the synodality saga, and the fate of the Latin Mass — this is essential listening for anyone watching the future of the Catholic Church unfold in real time.
Plus: shocking revelations about predator priests still in ministry, delays in the Vatican’s trial of disgraced artist Marco Rupnik, and why Pope Leo’s upcoming encyclical may reveal where he truly stands.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Pope Leo celebrates a new environmentally focused mass, and the
Senate rolls on is this change or continuity with the
revolution of Pope Francis. The Prayerful Posse has answers. Welcome
(00:23):
to this Arroyo Grande series The Prayerful Posse. Let's convene
the Posse. Joining me Father Gerald Murray Cannon, lawyer of
the Archdiocese of New York, and Robert Royal, editor in
chief of the Catholic Thing dot org, and I'm Raymond Arroyo.
Thank you both for being here. Go subscribe to the
Arroyo Grande Show channel now and go to iHeart, Apple, Spotify,
(00:43):
wherever you get your podcast. We don't want you to
miss an episode of the Posse. Throughout this episode, I
want to explore that issue of whether what we're seeing
from Pope Leo is a change or continuity with the
Francis Revolution. Pope Leo has approved a new Mass for
the common Home Home aka Care for Creation Now. This
is a liturgy that's now part of the Roman Missile.
(01:06):
It seeks to inspire Catholics to greater care for the planet.
This is also the tenth anniversary of l'au dauto c
that's Pope Francis's ecological teaching document. The Pope celebrated the
new pope the Care of Creation Mass this week at
his summer residence. Pope Leo said, this gence, we must
(01:27):
pray for the conversion of so many people inside and
out of the Church who still don't recognize the urgency
of caring for our common home. We see so many
natural disasters in the world nearly every day and in
so many countries that are in part caused by the
excesses of being human with our lifestyle. Bob, your thoughts
(01:52):
on this Mass of Creation, this new right for the occasion,
and you wrote a column about this this week. What
should we be noticing about this new liturgy?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Well, I think it's a mixed bag. I'm sorry to
not come up with a you know, a kind of
a definitive answer. But I like the idea of trying
to recover the sacredness of creation. I think that that's
an important thing in the West. You know, we've become
too rationalistic, too materialistic, and so that that opposition to
like the last two hundred years of regarding the world
(02:26):
is just matter and energy and there's no place for
value and the kind of high aspirations that the Church
and other spiritual traditions have tried to maintain in the world.
I think all that is to the good, and so
the resacralization of the world I think is good. When
you turn to the actual proposals to deal with various
(02:48):
ecological problems, there is where I think the sticking point
comes up, because we can't simply move from the idea
that nature is reveals something about God as creator and
then assume that we know absolutely what needs to be
done in every case. There are always trade offs in
these matters, and so you can say, for example, we
should abandon using fossil fuels, well, yes, that's a nice
(03:11):
aspiration in theory, but in the meantime, an awful lot
of people depend on that for energy to get to
their jobs, you know, to make their houses warm. It's
just the debate that has to go on goes beyond
that liturgical change that's there, and that's where I think
that we still need to see a lot of discussion
(03:33):
go on with in the Church, because the Church has
just been I think a little bit too ready to
accept the secular nostrums that mostly come from the progressive side.
Of modern culture.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Well, there is that line there, father, I mean, I'm
going to read it back to at the end where
he says that, you know, a lot of these disasters
we're seeing in the world are quote in part, caused
by the excesses of being human with our lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Well, I mean, this is the man made climate change argument,
which is not a unanimous I mean, it's presented as unanimous,
of course, in the mainstream media, and that's accepted by
many people. But you know, we've had cycles of freezing
temperatures and heat, and you know, you just look at
the course of recorded history in Europe. So to try
(04:17):
and attribute things simply to human activity, and that that
activity is violating the order of nature, we have to
step back. Because remember, according to the creation account that
we have in the Book of Genesis, God created the
world for us, for man, for men and women, and
(04:38):
he said he, you know, commanders to subdue the earth,
meaning to put it to good use so as to
make possible human flourishing, not just survival. So the exploitation
of natural resources is not a violation of God's will.
It's rather a fulfillment of his will, and it makes
possible human life and prosperity. So this is something that
(05:02):
sometimes gets forgotten. We get a dichotomy. There's man on
the one hand, and then there's nature on the other,
and each has equal claims to be respected. Bob's right,
and this is always told we have to be grateful
for the creation and treated properly. But there's no you know,
Proposition one leads to the following ten conclusions that no
one can deny that doesn't exist.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, father, why are we introducing innovative masses to the
Roman canon like this though? I mean, this is about
essentially a mass for the protection of the environment, while
the Latin right remains on the endangered list. I was
frankly stunned to learn, and I just learned there are
fifty fifty of these optional masses in the Novasorto for
(05:44):
particular causes.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, there always been prayers historically for intentions, you know,
So we pray for vocations, We pray for, you know,
the protection from harm from floods.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
And things of that sort. We do ask God.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Now, the question is is this the mass is not
being offered in homage and Mother Nature.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
You know, we should never get that mistake.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
It's not as if you know, for many people you
hold a mass in order to show appreciation for XYZ
person or thing. No masses are offered to God in
honor of the saints, in suffrage for the dead.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
And in the case of nature, we pray that God
will give us the correct.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Insights to make good use of nature. But that's as
Bob says, they're trade offs. I mean, if I need
to cut down a tree to build a log cabin,
am I offending the forest And the answer is, of
course not, Because God put the forest there so that
you could cut it.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
He's down and build homes. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
And as far as natural I mean, natural disasters have
been with us and will be with us till the
end of time. I mean that's part of nature and
the wonder and power of nature. You know, every place
is not necessarily inhabitable either. Now, look, I'd say that
sitting in New Orleans, we're ten feet below sea level,
is very fragile place. But I recognize that, and I
(07:02):
think we all have to kind of get a sense
of Okay, you're here, but ah, we're all on borrowed
time and we're guests here. And I think that's part
of the equation. This idea that we're somehow I'm entitled
to be here forever, and if nature goes awry and
washes us away, that somehow that's my doing or the
doing of the people here. I worry about that the
(07:25):
human impact of this. Now, Bob, Pope Francis authorized the
blessing of gay couples, and there has been some push
since Pope Leo has come to the throne to reevaluate
that practice. And just last week Cardinal Abongo of Congo,
who got an exemption from blessing gay couples for Africa,
(07:46):
said the following the position taken by Africa on the
declaration was also the position of many bishops here in Europe.
It's not just an African exception. Well, this week Pope
Leo received the head of the Vatican Doctrinal Office for Now,
Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez. He received him in an audience
and afterwards the cardinal rather emphatically stated that fiducia suplicons,
(08:11):
that's the document that held the twenty twenty three Vatican
Declaration approved by Pope Francis, that allowed the blessing of
these irregular unions. Divorced and remarried Catholics without annulmens as
well as same sex couples will quote remain in effect.
In the new pontificate of Pope Leo, the Cardinal says
there's going to be no modifications or edits to that document.
(08:34):
What do you make of that, bob, and why is
he presumably and I guess Pope Leo doubling down on this.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Well, I would be a little slow to draw conclusions
about this. It seems that Leo is the kind of
guy who doesn't like abrupt changes, and it may be
that in this instance, as well as in some others,
we need to wait a bit and see what actually
comes out of this. I find it, though, very just
disturbing that on something that caused so much controversy. And
(09:05):
by the way, Carnel Ambongo also said because the there
was sort of a compromise reach and Pope Francis came
out and said, well, in Africa, it's a cultural thing
with them, they don't really like it homosexuality, and so
we have to give him a carbot. He's also said
in recent weeks that no, that's not the case. This
(09:25):
is not a cultural matter. It's a theological matter, and
it's a moral matter that goes all the way back
to the earliest parts of the Church and the New Testament.
Saint Paul talks about this in the first chapter of
Romans one, and of course it also goes back into
the Jewish heritage that we've we've we've inherited from the
from the Jews. I mean, a friend of mine used
(09:47):
to say that the Catholic Church is the only institution
left defending Moses in the modern world, because it's the
Mosaic law that first prohibited homosexuality. So I don't like
that we're retained this. It may be that what Leo
wants to do is to avoid directly contradicting what his predecessor,
who's very affectionate towards has already done. Then again, it
(10:11):
may be that he really does want to continue what
is really a radical change from what the Church has
taught in the past. And that document goes straight out
I'll let father talk about this, but it goes straight
out talking about blessing couples. There's been a chance an
attempt to clean up after the fact and say, oh, no,
these are just the individuals who happen to be in
(10:31):
this relationship. But no, it talks about couples, And you
can't bless a couple that is involved in a sinful
situation and claim that it's part of the Catholic True Father.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
I mean, I know, our possibly member Bob says, we
got to wait. But when you have had the head
of the Doctrinal Office coming out and brazenly saying and
if he's saying this in opposition to what the Pope
just told him, he clearly is looking for the exits, Okay,
but to come out and say that this will remain
the law of the land, if you will, the blessing
(11:03):
of gay couples in the Catholic Church. That seems pretty
emphatic to me.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
And as part of the chaotic style of the past pontificate,
where press conferences became, where we learned what the Pope
isn't tending to implement the life of the church. No,
it was very wrong for Cardinal Fernandez to answer any
question about what Pope Leo is going to do. That
has to be up to Pope Leo, not to Cardinal Fernandez.
And by doing that, he's now again this chaotic manner
(11:29):
of acting. Pope Leo has every prerogative and right to
take time to make decisions. He's only been in the
pontificate now about three months, so that was very improved.
And I agree with Bob one hundred percent. If this
does actually represent Pope Leo's intent, well I hope he'll
(11:52):
make that clear and explain why, because the opposition to
it is not based on culture, it's not based on rejudice.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
It's based on theology.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
And I'll remind you that earlier in the pontificy to
Pope Francis, the Congregation of the Doctor of the Faith
issued a document saying that we cannot bless sin because
this request to bless homosexual couples has been with us
for a long time. So the earlier document said no,
then about a year and a half later they said yes.
(12:23):
Talk about abrupt changes. That's exactly what that was. So
we need to get back to the clear Catholic teaching,
which is that homosexual activity is a mortal sin and
cannot be blessed because people who engage in that and
proclaim to the world that that's their behavior, by the
way they live, they need to be called a repentance,
(12:44):
not blessed.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
You and you believe then that Cardinal Fernandez's comments are
to be put aside that this is not definitive.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
I don't yeah, I mean so, he has no power
to say that fiducia suplicans will remain. Therefore, he should
never have said that. He should say that's up to
Pope Leo to determine. We'll find out.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
If anything marked the papacy gents of Pope Francis, it
was the opening of the governance of the church to laity.
He called it cynidality. It sounded like Pope Leo was
slow rolling this or trying to redefine it in the
first days of his pontificate. But this week the Vatican
released a new document with guidelines for the next phase
(13:26):
of the late Pope Francis' Sonadyl process. According to Vatican News,
pathways for the implementation phase of the synod aims to
foster dialogue between local churches and the General Secretariat, that's
the bureaucrats in Rome, and to promote the exchange of
Sonadyl experiences among the churches. End quote Bob, is the
(13:50):
Sonadyl revolution rolling along and will sinidality continue unbroken into
this new pontificate?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Well, for right now it seems like it is. I
think that a lot of this was already baked in
when Leo was elected. We were always looking forward to
twenty twenty eight, when this so called ecclesial Assembly is
going to come together after another three years of studying
various questions and dialoguing with one another. And if you
go through that document, I did go through it today,
(14:21):
I have to say, and I am not the better
for having done so. But if you go through that,
the language is like very much what you just quoted.
There is constant reference to listening and to opening, and
to new initiatives that allow us to interact with one
another and whatnot. I mean, insofar as there's anything to
anything substantive to it. In a place like the United States,
(14:44):
I think we were already doing well with that. We
have our parish councils and financial advisors, and a discussion
goes on in the church. This document, which purports to
help the church do better to evangelize, looks like nothing
so much as something that Leo has spoken against and
(15:05):
written against for much of his life. And that is
a kind of a managerial approach to the church. It's
all inward looking about what we're doing with one another,
and we're bringing in people who have been ignored in
the past, etc. To me, it's an utter disaster in
terms of trying to evangelize the world, which really has
to have a different kind of spirit, a different kind
(15:25):
of language, and a different kind of procedure in the
next three years. Of these various things that they've laid out,
where you discussed locally, then nationally, than internationally, then continentally,
and then finally this ecclesial assembly, it just seems to
me to be a lumbering, bureaucratic process.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah. Father, look, I would argue, but we're referenced a
second ago. Latins easier to understand than synod is. Okay,
I don't know what they're saying half the time. But
Sister Natalie Beckcourt, who's the Undersecretary of this General Secretariat
of the Senate, was asked by Vatican News to give
a baseline definition of sinidality. Here's what she said. Quote,
(16:05):
we can also understand sinidality in two different ways that
can help. The first and I often quote an Australian
theologian who is at our Senate, our Senate, Ormond Rush,
who states sinidality is the second. Vatican Council. In a nutshell,
we can say sinidality is the way to understand the
ecclesiology of the Second Vatican Council in this stage of
(16:29):
the reception of the Council. So it's nothing else but
just continuing the reception of the Second Vatican Council because
the Council is not yet implemented everywhere in a way,
and we can say sinidality is a way to help
the Church to become more missionary and more participatory. So
cinidality is the way God is calling the Church to
(16:52):
be today to better exercise our mission. So it's a
way to be church. End quote Father, what does that
mean to be church? This is like the return of
the spirit of Vatican two back in action again.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
You know, this statement is full of so many problems
being church. That whole concept, this is a sociological approach
to how people gather for religious purposes, has nothing to
do with the Catholic churches. The Catholic Church is the
mystical body of Christ and it was created by the
(17:29):
external son of God who became man, who revealed to
the apostles that he was building the Church on Peter
and on them. So it's by nature hierarchical gathering, and
what was the purpose of it to teach all nations,
to baptize them and to observe everything that I have
commanded you. So the mission of the Church is to
draw people through sacramental life, into union with God and
(17:53):
into a belief and exactly what God himself had said.
Sinidality is nothing about that. The way I look at
it right now is Cinidality is not an fulfillment of
anything the Vatican two said. It's an attempt to be
Vatican three. It's an attempt to have basically a democratization
of the Catholic Church in the name somehow of the
(18:16):
baptismal vocation of everybody to be in charge, you know,
potentially or actually this is really bad. And I have
to say, Raymond, the fraudulence of so much of what
the sinidality movement has engaged in is revealed by the
fact that they've canceled the next synod. The next synod
(18:39):
is being canceled because it's not good enough. They're having
an ecclesial assembly.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Now.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
They haven't told us who's going to be there and
how many of them will be there, but we know
where it's going it's going to be one third laity,
one third clergy and religious, one third bishops and cardinals.
It's going to be something along those lines.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (18:58):
That's anglicanism't That's where the church itself is dependent on
all its members agreeing to anything, and the cathader is
not like that. It's about Peter and the apostles and
their successors being the shepherds and the flock receiving guidance
from them.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Akin to this, Pope Francis authorized these study groups. This
was at the last Senate when he was still alive,
to examine a series of hot topics that he took
off the table for discussion at that Senate. But he
did it mostly to keep these issues in play. I
think that was at least the bureaucratic move. Now, those
reports were due June thirtieth, which just passed well. This
(19:39):
week it was announced those final reports will be turned
in at the end of the year. They included controversial
issues like a female diaconet married priest, the same litany
we've been hearing really since Vatican Two. The Vatican Senate
Office will publish brief summary reports later this month. Now
I don't know why they're turning it in Bob later
(19:59):
this month, when it's not due till the end of
the year. But your thoughts on this delay. Pope Leo
has given the go ahead for this to proceed. We
have to say that what do you expect we'll see
in these reports ones released?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Well, I think originally they were set up that way
by Pub Francis because you wanted to kick the can
down the road. It was clear he didn't want to
have to make decisions, and maybe that's the same thing
that's going on with Pope Leo at this point. By
the way, he added two additional study groups according to
that announcement, one is to study liturgy. And as we know,
(20:35):
the revelation that the Pope decided to suppress basically suppress
the Latin Mass around the world, which he said was
the desire of the bishops who felt very troubled about it,
that was not true. What we know instead is that
the survey that was done was actually very positive about
the interaction between the Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo mass.
(20:57):
So the fact that Leo has created this new study
group for liturgy says to me that what he wants
to do is to put off having to decide about
what to do with this revelation about the Latin Mass
and what to do about the Latin Mass itself until
at least the end of the year, And as I
said on a previous show, I think that the way
(21:17):
that he handles this question is going to tell us
a great deal about him as a pope, because here's
a place where clearly an injustice was done on the
basis of some falsehood. Some people have criticized me for
saying that it was lying. Okay, if you want to
say it was a misimpression. I mean, certainly the Pube
created the idea that the bishops of the world had
told him that this was a problem. But whatever you
(21:39):
think about that, Leo is going to have to deal
with what is an injustice and a lack of truth
about what the situation is over the Latin Mass, and
so he's put this off to December for the report.
I think if he is the person who we hope
him to be, he will deal swiftly after that report
comes in to restore the Latin and to correct an injustice.
(22:02):
But we'll see, and it'll be by the end of
the year. Are the earlier part of twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Seven, Father, My question is why allow these other study
groups to proceed at all? He could have just said,
you know, given the TLM survey results and by the way,
if you don't know the story on that report that
came out, they pulled the bishops of the world. The
reports came in and the survey was suppressed. Well, last
week we did a whole episode on it. We'll tell
(22:27):
you exactly what the bishop said. You can go back
and watch that. But why allow these other study committees
to continue? Father? When these issues are settled, whether priests
can be married, or whether you can bless certain unions,
or whether people can be married, or a female diaconate,
all of this has been settled.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
It has been and this is actually getting to the
root of what centideality is all about. It's about putting
the Church into a tentative and questioning mode every day
of the year, every year in the future. The Senates
were meant by the Second Vatican You want to get
back to Vatican.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
Two, let's read what they said.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
The Senates were consultation between selected bishops throughout the world
with the Roman pontiff to discuss questions that the Pope
identified and he'd like to get their input on it,
which is very rational and a good thing. What has
turned into now is a permanent committee of people dedicated
to many different things that they kind of state in
obscure ways of talking. In this document that they just
(23:29):
issued by Pathways, they talk about well, you know, and
when there's a discussion of controversial issues, it's not a
matter of one side winning over the other. And I
thought to myself, tell that to the fathers at the
Council of Nicea. They affirmed the divinity of Christ, they
did not affirm that you can both believe in denying
the divinity of Christ and remain a follower of Christ.
(23:50):
So this is basically process theology, which is an old
problem back from the sixties. Bob knows what I'm talking about,
where the truth is always being sought but never gained.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
What we do, yeah, never attained.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
So what we do in the process is we come
up with temporary solutions and we find out how well
is it received by the people, and then we change
something later on. Now, for me, for instance, how can
you have say synidality consists of gathering people, but then
take away topics and say we got to get experts
to tell us what the people think. In essence just
(24:25):
doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Well in the expert who are who are these experts?
This is the this is the whole problem. Before it
was if the pope was looking at how do we
deal with the East, he would bring in cardinals from
the east or bishops from the east, so we could
get their opinions, get their feedback, get their perspective from
the ground. But now you're talking about fantasy land. What
(24:47):
does a female diacon it look like? Should we have
one who's in the room and we don't know any
of that father, This is part of the problem. It's
an ever evolving It's a mechanism to basically launder heresy.
That's what this is. We just have to say that.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Some committees we know the members are, but the crucial
one on doctrine we don't. That has those members have
not been reported, so that in the self caused the
whole thing, suspicion about the whole thing. Are you afraid
that if we know who's looking at the women diact
in it, that we might try to write them a
letter and tell them, you know, this is what you
should do. I mean, talk about a closed shop talk
(25:23):
about all of mirrors.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
I thought this was.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Supposed to be discussed by the by the assembled delegates
back last October. Well, the Pope France said, no, we
gotta have the experts. Who are the experts. Well, we'll
let you know when we let you know.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, I'm afraid it's.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Cart very interesting go ahead, very interesting to see who
the experts are are appointed to that Special Study Committee
on the Liturgy, because, as we know, personnel is policy,
and so if we know who is being appointed, we
can perhaps predict the what we'll come out at the
other end.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Well, we'll keep our eyes on that. In the weeks ahead. Father,
We've been covering the Marco Rupnik story. I'm going to
give you a crack at this at the top, because
I know this is a you were particularly focused on this,
the disgrace Jesuit mosaic artists. He was accused of abusing
nuns I think twenty nuns in his order, and the
charges are stark. I'm not even going to get into them.
They're so gross and depraved. But he was excommunicated and
(26:20):
then unexcommunicated by the former Pope. Then he was put
back in ministry somehow, and was very close to Pope Francis.
Now Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez, the Vatican doc trinal officer
we talked about earlier. He announced that a panel of
judges for the canonical trial against Marco Rupnik have finally
been chosen. According to Fernandez, the panel is quote made
(26:43):
up of judges who are all independent and external to
our dicastory. Father. Then, Bob, what do you make of
the time it took to unpanel these judges and still
no word on the start day of this trial.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Now, this has been a disgraceful display of canonical Insussians,
meaning they didn't really care to get this thing going.
It was only actually when pressure was put upon them.
A number of those victims had a couple of press conferences,
including their lawyer, and then the Vatican suddenly, you know,
(27:17):
everything then preceded. But then it didn't proceed because left
January or February cardinal finance and we're having trouble getting judges.
Wait a minute, there's no trouble getting judges, well, you do.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
There are plenty of.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Canon law judges out there in the church, plenty in Italy.
I study in Italy, a lot of canon lawyers in Italy.
All you gotta do is tap three of them. No,
the question now will be will Roupe to cooperate, will
he be summoned to the trial?
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Will he give evidence? How well would the prosecutors do?
Speaker 3 (27:48):
This thing needs to be resolved and resolved with speed,
because it's a disgrace that we can say we are
a zero tolerance church when it comes to sexual abuse.
But a man who was throw own out of the
Jesuits in part because of this is still functioning as
a priest of a diaces in his native Slovenia and
is traveling the world as a priest when he's got
(28:10):
this horrendous set of facts behind him. So they got
to do something. They got to do it quick. Bob
your reaction.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, when we want to talk about injustice, I know,
and probably both of you know too, priests who had
been accused here in the United States are the flimsiest
of charges. The things that I'm actually surprised that the
church even reacted to. But I guess we're all, you know,
we're kind of in a hair trigger moment where we
don't want to see any further abuse. We have zero tolerance, etc.
(28:41):
And they're immediately removed from ministry.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
See, I've had one priest in particular that I worked
with for a number of years who was immediately removed
when there was a kind of a charge. It was
later discovered that it was a false charge. But does
he ever get restored to ministry.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
No.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Meanwhile, Wow, is very prominent artist who's close to Pope
Francis to this day is allowed to function as a priest. Now,
I'm grateful, and I'm hoping that this is a result
of Leo coming to power and so that the unfreezing
of the way that it was being slow walked for
so long prior to his becoming pope. But still, at
(29:19):
the same time, I don't understand. Father, Maybe you can
enlighten us about the canon law status here, but how
is it possible that a man that has been accused
of so many grave, horrible instances of misconduct is still
walking around as a priest. It makes no sense whatever
in the kind of church that we claim to be.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Yeah, now I'll answer it quickly. Close bishop in Slovenia
is allowing him to continue to operate, and the Holy
See has not instructed that bishop to put this man
under what we would call provisions to prevent him from
engaging in the kind of behavior he's accused of, so
making use of his priesthood as a public person in
the church to to be able to influence people. He
(30:01):
should be identified as someone under serious accusation and has
been judged worthy to be tried.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah. Well, Meanwhile, as Bob referenced, I know priests in
the United States who have been removed and later cleared
because they were too angry or had anger issues, because
they reacted to some crazy thing in the parish and
they got complained about. Next thing, you know, they're out
of ministry. They're still not back. But this guy who
engaged not only misconduct, Bob, canonical crimes, canonical crimes, he
(30:32):
used his priesthood and artistry to abuse and pervert sacraments.
It's really sick. I mean, it's sick of on a
level that frankly boggles the mind. This has got to
be taken care of. Bob pop Leo will be taking
a much needed retreat arrest in Rome this summer. Maybe
I need a rest. He's going to Costal Gondolfo. He's
(30:55):
going to be scaling back some of his public appearances
and responsibilities. The talk is that he might be writing
his first encyclical, starting work on this first paper in cyclical,
like his predecessor, Pope Benedict, who liked to engage in
music and play his keyboards while he was at Costal Gondolfo,
(31:15):
what might be the focus of that first and cyclical, Bob.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Well, I mean you mean, you know, we can only
guess about it. Yes, I'm inclined to think that he
is inspired by a predecessor, Leo the thirteenth, who addressed
the changes that were occurring in society. Back at the
end of the nineteenth century. People were moving off the
farms into cities, so there was a kind of a
(31:41):
shift in the society. There was industrialization that was going on,
there was a dislocation of families, and so really there
was a new moment, and Leo wrote several important encyclicals
that were the beginning of the tradition of Catholic social thought.
Leo has talked about AI and talked about other things
that are going on in our society. I'm feeling that
(32:02):
this will be a kind of an Augustinian approach to
the status questianers, where are we right now? As a
global society. What is the role of the church at
this moment when technologies seem to be running away with us,
that we seem to be losing our foundations in society
and in the church, and people are just they're at
(32:24):
a loss where to look for something that's going to
help them live a life that's meaningful and it's founded
on truth. So I would like to see that that's
what it is, and I think that there are indications
that that may be what he's going to be doing.
But it'll be great to see what his first encyclicals.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, I want to move on to this report and
the pillar this week that revealed and archbishop in France
recently appointed a priest convicted of raping a sixteen year
old boy, and he appointed that priest to the position
of archdiocese and chancellor as quote an act of mercy.
(33:01):
Archbishop guy Andre Marie de Carrimel of the Archdiocese of
Toulouse made father Dominique Spina or Spina, the Chancellor an
episcopal delegate for marriages in that archdiocese. In two thousand
and six, his father Spinna was convicted of a rape
(33:22):
of a sixteen year old boy. He subsequently was sentenced
to five years in prison. Father. According to the archbishop,
the position is quote mostly administrative. What do you make
of the judgment here? I mean the chancellor of marriages
for the archdiocese has served prison time and they consider
this an act of mercy.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Well, if the facts has stated are correct, raping a
sixteen year old is canonical crime that can be punished
by removal from the ecclesiastical state. That he can be
removed from the priesthood. I'd like to know if the
diocese ever sent this case to Rome for judgment, because
this is this is a serious matter. The local diocese
(34:04):
does not have the discretion to say, well, he did
his four years in prison and that's all the punishment
that's going to be given. We have to remember this
is a crime that involved his use of the priesthood
to accomplish horrendous evil of a sexual nature on a youth,
on a youth or a teenager in this case. So
(34:25):
this is horrible. The idea that this man should now
be given a very important role in his archdiocese and
that it has something to do even with the marriage formation,
is this is ridiculous. I have to say that bishop
has made a grave error. The message that's sent out
(34:46):
is Catholic priests who commit crimes and end up in
French prisons have a home in archdiocese and administration in Toulouse,
rather than they should be prosecuted canonically, perhaps phaps removed
from the priesthood, but they should certainly not be given
the care of souls. He's demonstrated by his life that
(35:06):
he doesn't care for souls. And if he says now
that I have okay, well the answer is care for
them by prayer and penance, because that's what he should
be doing.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah, zero tolerance, except when you decide to extend an
act of mercy to an offender like this, it just
looks horrible. It's a horrible witness for the church, particularly today,
given all we know. Okay, here's I want to do this.
I'm instituting this every week, Posse. We're going to do
a round up at the end of every episode. Given
what we saw this week, is Leo charting a course
(35:36):
for change or is this a continuation of the Francis Revolution?
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Bob Well, I've been reading into some material about his life,
and we also see from the way he conducts himself
that is he's kind of a man of deliberation and
of careful talk, etc. So I don't expect that we're
(36:02):
going to see some of the large reversals that we
would like to see on matters like the blessing of
homosexuals or the Latin mass. I think that if those
do come, it's going to take a while, but we'll see.
I think we're going to see very soon what kind
of papacy that this is going to be. I mean
this example you just brought forth about the bishop. He
(36:23):
used to be the head of the officers that appointed bishops,
and so you should know about these men, about the
things that they do well and things that they do badly,
How he handles cases like that, It's going to tell
us a lot about what type of leader he is.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Father. Is this revolution or change.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Uncertain at this moment, but we'll learn pretty quickly. Because
you know the heads of the dicastories, meaning the departments
basically these cabinet officers and running the Holy See. If
he makes some changes that indicate that he's not happy
with some of the personnel that Pope Francis put in there,
that'll be a good sign. If people get reconfirmed by
(37:05):
and large as a group, then that's pretty much an
indication that Pope Leo would be happy to continue the
policies that these people implemented previous to Leo taking the throne.
And unless Pope Leo said's an entirely new course, the
chances are those policies will continue. So that remains to
be seen. He is a deliberate man, he's thoughtful, he's
(37:26):
a good listener, and he's been used to executive authority
because remember head of his order for twelve years, he's
been a diocesan bishop. He knows how to make decisions
and let's see what those are.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, and he got high marks, we should say, as
head of the Augustinian Order when he was in his
diocese in Peru. So look, I'm still hopeful. But the
fall and the winter are going to tell the tale.
I hope when the summer ends we begin to see
at least a glimmer of where he means to take
the church, because there's a lot of suffering, confusion and
(38:03):
frankly outrage out there that needs to quell, that needs
to be calmed, and only the pope can really do that. Posse,
We're gonna leave it there. If you want more of
the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to The Arroyo Grande
Show on YouTube or the podcast wherever you get yours
on behalf of Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray. Until the
Posse rides again, Stay the course, follow the light. I'm
(38:26):
Raymond Arroyo. We'll see you next time. Find Arroyo Grande
is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcast. It's available on
the iHeartRadio, Apple wherever you get your podcasts
Pope Leo celebrates a new environmentally focused mass, and the
Senate rolls on is this change or continuity with the
revolution of Pope Francis. The Prayerful Posse has answers. Welcome
(00:23):
to this Arroyo Grande series The Prayerful Posse. Let's convene
the Posse. Joining me Father Gerald Murray Cannon, lawyer of
the Archdiocese of New York, and Robert Royal, editor in
chief of the Catholic Thing dot org, and I'm Raymond Arroyo.
Thank you both for being here. Go subscribe to the
Arroyo Grande Show channel now and go to iHeart, Apple, Spotify,
(00:43):
wherever you get your podcast. We don't want you to
miss an episode of the Posse. Throughout this episode, I
want to explore that issue of whether what we're seeing
from Pope Leo is a change or continuity with the
Francis Revolution. Pope Leo has approved a new Mass for
the common Home Home aka Care for Creation Now. This
is a liturgy that's now part of the Roman Missile.
(01:06):
It seeks to inspire Catholics to greater care for the planet.
This is also the tenth anniversary of l'au dauto c
that's Pope Francis's ecological teaching document. The Pope celebrated the
new pope the Care of Creation Mass this week at
his summer residence. Pope Leo said, this gence, we must
(01:27):
pray for the conversion of so many people inside and
out of the Church who still don't recognize the urgency
of caring for our common home. We see so many
natural disasters in the world nearly every day and in
so many countries that are in part caused by the
excesses of being human with our lifestyle. Bob, your thoughts
(01:52):
on this Mass of Creation, this new right for the occasion,
and you wrote a column about this this week. What
should we be noticing about this new liturgy?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Well, I think it's a mixed bag. I'm sorry to
not come up with a you know, a kind of
a definitive answer. But I like the idea of trying
to recover the sacredness of creation. I think that that's
an important thing in the West. You know, we've become
too rationalistic, too materialistic, and so that that opposition to
like the last two hundred years of regarding the world
(02:26):
is just matter and energy and there's no place for
value and the kind of high aspirations that the Church
and other spiritual traditions have tried to maintain in the world.
I think all that is to the good, and so
the resacralization of the world I think is good. When
you turn to the actual proposals to deal with various
(02:48):
ecological problems, there is where I think the sticking point
comes up, because we can't simply move from the idea
that nature is reveals something about God as creator and
then assume that we know absolutely what needs to be
done in every case. There are always trade offs in
these matters, and so you can say, for example, we
should abandon using fossil fuels, well, yes, that's a nice
(03:11):
aspiration in theory, but in the meantime, an awful lot
of people depend on that for energy to get to
their jobs, you know, to make their houses warm. It's
just the debate that has to go on goes beyond
that liturgical change that's there, and that's where I think
that we still need to see a lot of discussion
(03:33):
go on with in the Church, because the Church has
just been I think a little bit too ready to
accept the secular nostrums that mostly come from the progressive side.
Of modern culture.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Well, there is that line there, father, I mean, I'm
going to read it back to at the end where
he says that, you know, a lot of these disasters
we're seeing in the world are quote in part, caused
by the excesses of being human with our lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Well, I mean, this is the man made climate change argument,
which is not a unanimous I mean, it's presented as unanimous,
of course, in the mainstream media, and that's accepted by
many people. But you know, we've had cycles of freezing
temperatures and heat, and you know, you just look at
the course of recorded history in Europe. So to try
(04:17):
and attribute things simply to human activity, and that that
activity is violating the order of nature, we have to
step back. Because remember, according to the creation account that
we have in the Book of Genesis, God created the
world for us, for man, for men and women, and
(04:38):
he said he, you know, commanders to subdue the earth,
meaning to put it to good use so as to
make possible human flourishing, not just survival. So the exploitation
of natural resources is not a violation of God's will.
It's rather a fulfillment of his will, and it makes
possible human life and prosperity. So this is something that
(05:02):
sometimes gets forgotten. We get a dichotomy. There's man on
the one hand, and then there's nature on the other,
and each has equal claims to be respected. Bob's right,
and this is always told we have to be grateful
for the creation and treated properly. But there's no you know,
Proposition one leads to the following ten conclusions that no
one can deny that doesn't exist.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, father, why are we introducing innovative masses to the
Roman canon like this though? I mean, this is about
essentially a mass for the protection of the environment, while
the Latin right remains on the endangered list. I was
frankly stunned to learn, and I just learned there are
fifty fifty of these optional masses in the Novasorto for
(05:44):
particular causes.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, there always been prayers historically for intentions, you know,
So we pray for vocations, We pray for, you know,
the protection from harm from floods.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
And things of that sort. We do ask God.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Now, the question is is this the mass is not
being offered in homage and Mother Nature.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
You know, we should never get that mistake.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
It's not as if you know, for many people you
hold a mass in order to show appreciation for XYZ
person or thing. No masses are offered to God in
honor of the saints, in suffrage for the dead.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
And in the case of nature, we pray that God
will give us the correct.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Insights to make good use of nature. But that's as
Bob says, they're trade offs. I mean, if I need
to cut down a tree to build a log cabin,
am I offending the forest And the answer is, of
course not, Because God put the forest there so that
you could cut it.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
He's down and build homes. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
And as far as natural I mean, natural disasters have
been with us and will be with us till the
end of time. I mean that's part of nature and
the wonder and power of nature. You know, every place
is not necessarily inhabitable either. Now, look, I'd say that
sitting in New Orleans, we're ten feet below sea level,
is very fragile place. But I recognize that, and I
(07:02):
think we all have to kind of get a sense
of Okay, you're here, but ah, we're all on borrowed
time and we're guests here. And I think that's part
of the equation. This idea that we're somehow I'm entitled
to be here forever, and if nature goes awry and
washes us away, that somehow that's my doing or the
doing of the people here. I worry about that the
(07:25):
human impact of this. Now, Bob, Pope Francis authorized the
blessing of gay couples, and there has been some push
since Pope Leo has come to the throne to reevaluate
that practice. And just last week Cardinal Abongo of Congo,
who got an exemption from blessing gay couples for Africa,
(07:46):
said the following the position taken by Africa on the
declaration was also the position of many bishops here in Europe.
It's not just an African exception. Well, this week Pope
Leo received the head of the Vatican Doctrinal Office for Now,
Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez. He received him in an audience
and afterwards the cardinal rather emphatically stated that fiducia suplicons,
(08:11):
that's the document that held the twenty twenty three Vatican
Declaration approved by Pope Francis, that allowed the blessing of
these irregular unions. Divorced and remarried Catholics without annulmens as
well as same sex couples will quote remain in effect.
In the new pontificate of Pope Leo, the Cardinal says
there's going to be no modifications or edits to that document.
(08:34):
What do you make of that, bob, and why is
he presumably and I guess Pope Leo doubling down on this.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Well, I would be a little slow to draw conclusions
about this. It seems that Leo is the kind of
guy who doesn't like abrupt changes, and it may be
that in this instance, as well as in some others,
we need to wait a bit and see what actually
comes out of this. I find it, though, very just
disturbing that on something that caused so much controversy. And
(09:05):
by the way, Carnel Ambongo also said because the there
was sort of a compromise reach and Pope Francis came
out and said, well, in Africa, it's a cultural thing
with them, they don't really like it homosexuality, and so
we have to give him a carbot. He's also said
in recent weeks that no, that's not the case. This
(09:25):
is not a cultural matter. It's a theological matter, and
it's a moral matter that goes all the way back
to the earliest parts of the Church and the New Testament.
Saint Paul talks about this in the first chapter of
Romans one, and of course it also goes back into
the Jewish heritage that we've we've we've inherited from the
from the Jews. I mean, a friend of mine used
(09:47):
to say that the Catholic Church is the only institution
left defending Moses in the modern world, because it's the
Mosaic law that first prohibited homosexuality. So I don't like
that we're retained this. It may be that what Leo
wants to do is to avoid directly contradicting what his predecessor,
who's very affectionate towards has already done. Then again, it
(10:11):
may be that he really does want to continue what
is really a radical change from what the Church has
taught in the past. And that document goes straight out
I'll let father talk about this, but it goes straight
out talking about blessing couples. There's been a chance an
attempt to clean up after the fact and say, oh, no,
these are just the individuals who happen to be in
(10:31):
this relationship. But no, it talks about couples, And you
can't bless a couple that is involved in a sinful
situation and claim that it's part of the Catholic True Father.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
I mean, I know, our possibly member Bob says, we
got to wait. But when you have had the head
of the Doctrinal Office coming out and brazenly saying and
if he's saying this in opposition to what the Pope
just told him, he clearly is looking for the exits, Okay,
but to come out and say that this will remain
the law of the land, if you will, the blessing
(11:03):
of gay couples in the Catholic Church. That seems pretty
emphatic to me.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
And as part of the chaotic style of the past pontificate,
where press conferences became, where we learned what the Pope
isn't tending to implement the life of the church. No,
it was very wrong for Cardinal Fernandez to answer any
question about what Pope Leo is going to do. That
has to be up to Pope Leo, not to Cardinal Fernandez.
And by doing that, he's now again this chaotic manner
(11:29):
of acting. Pope Leo has every prerogative and right to
take time to make decisions. He's only been in the
pontificate now about three months, so that was very improved.
And I agree with Bob one hundred percent. If this
does actually represent Pope Leo's intent, well I hope he'll
(11:52):
make that clear and explain why, because the opposition to
it is not based on culture, it's not based on rejudice.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
It's based on theology.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
And I'll remind you that earlier in the pontificy to
Pope Francis, the Congregation of the Doctor of the Faith
issued a document saying that we cannot bless sin because
this request to bless homosexual couples has been with us
for a long time. So the earlier document said no,
then about a year and a half later they said yes.
(12:23):
Talk about abrupt changes. That's exactly what that was. So
we need to get back to the clear Catholic teaching,
which is that homosexual activity is a mortal sin and
cannot be blessed because people who engage in that and
proclaim to the world that that's their behavior, by the
way they live, they need to be called a repentance,
(12:44):
not blessed.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
You and you believe then that Cardinal Fernandez's comments are
to be put aside that this is not definitive.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
I don't yeah, I mean so, he has no power
to say that fiducia suplicans will remain. Therefore, he should
never have said that. He should say that's up to
Pope Leo to determine. We'll find out.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
If anything marked the papacy gents of Pope Francis, it
was the opening of the governance of the church to laity.
He called it cynidality. It sounded like Pope Leo was
slow rolling this or trying to redefine it in the
first days of his pontificate. But this week the Vatican
released a new document with guidelines for the next phase
(13:26):
of the late Pope Francis' Sonadyl process. According to Vatican News,
pathways for the implementation phase of the synod aims to
foster dialogue between local churches and the General Secretariat, that's
the bureaucrats in Rome, and to promote the exchange of
Sonadyl experiences among the churches. End quote Bob, is the
(13:50):
Sonadyl revolution rolling along and will sinidality continue unbroken into
this new pontificate?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Well, for right now it seems like it is. I
think that a lot of this was already baked in
when Leo was elected. We were always looking forward to
twenty twenty eight, when this so called ecclesial Assembly is
going to come together after another three years of studying
various questions and dialoguing with one another. And if you
go through that document, I did go through it today,
(14:21):
I have to say, and I am not the better
for having done so. But if you go through that,
the language is like very much what you just quoted.
There is constant reference to listening and to opening, and
to new initiatives that allow us to interact with one
another and whatnot. I mean, insofar as there's anything to
anything substantive to it. In a place like the United States,
(14:44):
I think we were already doing well with that. We
have our parish councils and financial advisors, and a discussion
goes on in the church. This document, which purports to
help the church do better to evangelize, looks like nothing
so much as something that Leo has spoken against and
(15:05):
written against for much of his life. And that is
a kind of a managerial approach to the church. It's
all inward looking about what we're doing with one another,
and we're bringing in people who have been ignored in
the past, etc. To me, it's an utter disaster in
terms of trying to evangelize the world, which really has
to have a different kind of spirit, a different kind
(15:25):
of language, and a different kind of procedure in the
next three years. Of these various things that they've laid out,
where you discussed locally, then nationally, than internationally, then continentally,
and then finally this ecclesial assembly, it just seems to
me to be a lumbering, bureaucratic process.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah. Father, look, I would argue, but we're referenced a
second ago. Latins easier to understand than synod is. Okay,
I don't know what they're saying half the time. But
Sister Natalie Beckcourt, who's the Undersecretary of this General Secretariat
of the Senate, was asked by Vatican News to give
a baseline definition of sinidality. Here's what she said. Quote,
(16:05):
we can also understand sinidality in two different ways that
can help. The first and I often quote an Australian
theologian who is at our Senate, our Senate, Ormond Rush,
who states sinidality is the second. Vatican Council. In a nutshell,
we can say sinidality is the way to understand the
ecclesiology of the Second Vatican Council in this stage of
(16:29):
the reception of the Council. So it's nothing else but
just continuing the reception of the Second Vatican Council because
the Council is not yet implemented everywhere in a way,
and we can say sinidality is a way to help
the Church to become more missionary and more participatory. So
cinidality is the way God is calling the Church to
(16:52):
be today to better exercise our mission. So it's a
way to be church. End quote Father, what does that
mean to be church? This is like the return of
the spirit of Vatican two back in action again.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
You know, this statement is full of so many problems
being church. That whole concept, this is a sociological approach
to how people gather for religious purposes, has nothing to
do with the Catholic churches. The Catholic Church is the
mystical body of Christ and it was created by the
(17:29):
external son of God who became man, who revealed to
the apostles that he was building the Church on Peter
and on them. So it's by nature hierarchical gathering, and
what was the purpose of it to teach all nations,
to baptize them and to observe everything that I have
commanded you. So the mission of the Church is to
draw people through sacramental life, into union with God and
(17:53):
into a belief and exactly what God himself had said.
Sinidality is nothing about that. The way I look at
it right now is Cinidality is not an fulfillment of
anything the Vatican two said. It's an attempt to be
Vatican three. It's an attempt to have basically a democratization
of the Catholic Church in the name somehow of the
(18:16):
baptismal vocation of everybody to be in charge, you know,
potentially or actually this is really bad. And I have
to say, Raymond, the fraudulence of so much of what
the sinidality movement has engaged in is revealed by the
fact that they've canceled the next synod. The next synod
(18:39):
is being canceled because it's not good enough. They're having
an ecclesial assembly.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Now.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
They haven't told us who's going to be there and
how many of them will be there, but we know
where it's going it's going to be one third laity,
one third clergy and religious, one third bishops and cardinals.
It's going to be something along those lines.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (18:58):
That's anglicanism't That's where the church itself is dependent on
all its members agreeing to anything, and the cathader is
not like that. It's about Peter and the apostles and
their successors being the shepherds and the flock receiving guidance
from them.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Akin to this, Pope Francis authorized these study groups. This
was at the last Senate when he was still alive,
to examine a series of hot topics that he took
off the table for discussion at that Senate. But he
did it mostly to keep these issues in play. I
think that was at least the bureaucratic move. Now, those
reports were due June thirtieth, which just passed well. This
(19:39):
week it was announced those final reports will be turned
in at the end of the year. They included controversial
issues like a female diaconet married priest, the same litany
we've been hearing really since Vatican Two. The Vatican Senate
Office will publish brief summary reports later this month. Now
I don't know why they're turning it in Bob later
(19:59):
this month, when it's not due till the end of
the year. But your thoughts on this delay. Pope Leo
has given the go ahead for this to proceed. We
have to say that what do you expect we'll see
in these reports ones released?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Well, I think originally they were set up that way
by Pub Francis because you wanted to kick the can
down the road. It was clear he didn't want to
have to make decisions, and maybe that's the same thing
that's going on with Pope Leo at this point. By
the way, he added two additional study groups according to
that announcement, one is to study liturgy. And as we know,
(20:35):
the revelation that the Pope decided to suppress basically suppress
the Latin Mass around the world, which he said was
the desire of the bishops who felt very troubled about it,
that was not true. What we know instead is that
the survey that was done was actually very positive about
the interaction between the Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo mass.
(20:57):
So the fact that Leo has created this new study
group for liturgy says to me that what he wants
to do is to put off having to decide about
what to do with this revelation about the Latin Mass
and what to do about the Latin Mass itself until
at least the end of the year, And as I
said on a previous show, I think that the way
(21:17):
that he handles this question is going to tell us
a great deal about him as a pope, because here's
a place where clearly an injustice was done on the
basis of some falsehood. Some people have criticized me for
saying that it was lying. Okay, if you want to
say it was a misimpression. I mean, certainly the Pube
created the idea that the bishops of the world had
told him that this was a problem. But whatever you
(21:39):
think about that, Leo is going to have to deal
with what is an injustice and a lack of truth
about what the situation is over the Latin Mass, and
so he's put this off to December for the report.
I think if he is the person who we hope
him to be, he will deal swiftly after that report
comes in to restore the Latin and to correct an injustice.
(22:02):
But we'll see, and it'll be by the end of
the year. Are the earlier part of twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Seven, Father, My question is why allow these other study
groups to proceed at all? He could have just said,
you know, given the TLM survey results and by the way,
if you don't know the story on that report that
came out, they pulled the bishops of the world. The
reports came in and the survey was suppressed. Well, last
week we did a whole episode on it. We'll tell
(22:27):
you exactly what the bishop said. You can go back
and watch that. But why allow these other study committees
to continue? Father? When these issues are settled, whether priests
can be married, or whether you can bless certain unions,
or whether people can be married, or a female diaconate,
all of this has been settled.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
It has been and this is actually getting to the
root of what centideality is all about. It's about putting
the Church into a tentative and questioning mode every day
of the year, every year in the future. The Senates
were meant by the Second Vatican You want to get
back to Vatican.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
Two, let's read what they said.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
The Senates were consultation between selected bishops throughout the world
with the Roman pontiff to discuss questions that the Pope
identified and he'd like to get their input on it,
which is very rational and a good thing. What has
turned into now is a permanent committee of people dedicated
to many different things that they kind of state in
obscure ways of talking. In this document that they just
(23:29):
issued by Pathways, they talk about well, you know, and
when there's a discussion of controversial issues, it's not a
matter of one side winning over the other. And I
thought to myself, tell that to the fathers at the
Council of Nicea. They affirmed the divinity of Christ, they
did not affirm that you can both believe in denying
the divinity of Christ and remain a follower of Christ.
(23:50):
So this is basically process theology, which is an old
problem back from the sixties. Bob knows what I'm talking about,
where the truth is always being sought but never gained.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
What we do, yeah, never attained.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
So what we do in the process is we come
up with temporary solutions and we find out how well
is it received by the people, and then we change
something later on. Now, for me, for instance, how can
you have say synidality consists of gathering people, but then
take away topics and say we got to get experts
to tell us what the people think. In essence just
(24:25):
doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Well in the expert who are who are these experts?
This is the this is the whole problem. Before it
was if the pope was looking at how do we
deal with the East, he would bring in cardinals from
the east or bishops from the east, so we could
get their opinions, get their feedback, get their perspective from
the ground. But now you're talking about fantasy land. What
(24:47):
does a female diacon it look like? Should we have
one who's in the room and we don't know any
of that father, This is part of the problem. It's
an ever evolving It's a mechanism to basically launder heresy.
That's what this is. We just have to say that.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Some committees we know the members are, but the crucial
one on doctrine we don't. That has those members have
not been reported, so that in the self caused the
whole thing, suspicion about the whole thing. Are you afraid
that if we know who's looking at the women diact
in it, that we might try to write them a
letter and tell them, you know, this is what you
should do. I mean, talk about a closed shop talk
(25:23):
about all of mirrors.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
I thought this was.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Supposed to be discussed by the by the assembled delegates
back last October. Well, the Pope France said, no, we
gotta have the experts. Who are the experts. Well, we'll
let you know when we let you know.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, I'm afraid it's.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Cart very interesting go ahead, very interesting to see who
the experts are are appointed to that Special Study Committee
on the Liturgy, because, as we know, personnel is policy,
and so if we know who is being appointed, we
can perhaps predict the what we'll come out at the
other end.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Well, we'll keep our eyes on that. In the weeks ahead. Father,
We've been covering the Marco Rupnik story. I'm going to
give you a crack at this at the top, because
I know this is a you were particularly focused on this,
the disgrace Jesuit mosaic artists. He was accused of abusing
nuns I think twenty nuns in his order, and the
charges are stark. I'm not even going to get into them.
They're so gross and depraved. But he was excommunicated and
(26:20):
then unexcommunicated by the former Pope. Then he was put
back in ministry somehow, and was very close to Pope Francis.
Now Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez, the Vatican doc trinal officer
we talked about earlier. He announced that a panel of
judges for the canonical trial against Marco Rupnik have finally
been chosen. According to Fernandez, the panel is quote made
(26:43):
up of judges who are all independent and external to
our dicastory. Father. Then, Bob, what do you make of
the time it took to unpanel these judges and still
no word on the start day of this trial.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Now, this has been a disgraceful display of canonical Insussians,
meaning they didn't really care to get this thing going.
It was only actually when pressure was put upon them.
A number of those victims had a couple of press conferences,
including their lawyer, and then the Vatican suddenly, you know,
(27:17):
everything then preceded. But then it didn't proceed because left
January or February cardinal finance and we're having trouble getting judges.
Wait a minute, there's no trouble getting judges, well, you do.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
There are plenty of.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Canon law judges out there in the church, plenty in Italy.
I study in Italy, a lot of canon lawyers in Italy.
All you gotta do is tap three of them. No,
the question now will be will Roupe to cooperate, will
he be summoned to the trial?
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Will he give evidence? How well would the prosecutors do?
Speaker 3 (27:48):
This thing needs to be resolved and resolved with speed,
because it's a disgrace that we can say we are
a zero tolerance church when it comes to sexual abuse.
But a man who was throw own out of the
Jesuits in part because of this is still functioning as
a priest of a diaces in his native Slovenia and
is traveling the world as a priest when he's got
(28:10):
this horrendous set of facts behind him. So they got
to do something. They got to do it quick. Bob
your reaction.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, when we want to talk about injustice, I know,
and probably both of you know too, priests who had
been accused here in the United States are the flimsiest
of charges. The things that I'm actually surprised that the
church even reacted to. But I guess we're all, you know,
we're kind of in a hair trigger moment where we
don't want to see any further abuse. We have zero tolerance, etc.
(28:41):
And they're immediately removed from ministry.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
See, I've had one priest in particular that I worked
with for a number of years who was immediately removed
when there was a kind of a charge. It was
later discovered that it was a false charge. But does
he ever get restored to ministry.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
No.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Meanwhile, Wow, is very prominent artist who's close to Pope
Francis to this day is allowed to function as a priest. Now,
I'm grateful, and I'm hoping that this is a result
of Leo coming to power and so that the unfreezing
of the way that it was being slow walked for
so long prior to his becoming pope. But still, at
(29:19):
the same time, I don't understand. Father, Maybe you can
enlighten us about the canon law status here, but how
is it possible that a man that has been accused
of so many grave, horrible instances of misconduct is still
walking around as a priest. It makes no sense whatever
in the kind of church that we claim to be.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Yeah, now I'll answer it quickly. Close bishop in Slovenia
is allowing him to continue to operate, and the Holy
See has not instructed that bishop to put this man
under what we would call provisions to prevent him from
engaging in the kind of behavior he's accused of, so
making use of his priesthood as a public person in
the church to to be able to influence people. He
(30:01):
should be identified as someone under serious accusation and has
been judged worthy to be tried.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah. Well, Meanwhile, as Bob referenced, I know priests in
the United States who have been removed and later cleared
because they were too angry or had anger issues, because
they reacted to some crazy thing in the parish and
they got complained about. Next thing, you know, they're out
of ministry. They're still not back. But this guy who
engaged not only misconduct, Bob, canonical crimes, canonical crimes, he
(30:32):
used his priesthood and artistry to abuse and pervert sacraments.
It's really sick. I mean, it's sick of on a
level that frankly boggles the mind. This has got to
be taken care of. Bob pop Leo will be taking
a much needed retreat arrest in Rome this summer. Maybe
I need a rest. He's going to Costal Gondolfo. He's
(30:55):
going to be scaling back some of his public appearances
and responsibilities. The talk is that he might be writing
his first encyclical, starting work on this first paper in cyclical,
like his predecessor, Pope Benedict, who liked to engage in
music and play his keyboards while he was at Costal Gondolfo,
(31:15):
what might be the focus of that first and cyclical, Bob.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Well, I mean you mean, you know, we can only
guess about it. Yes, I'm inclined to think that he
is inspired by a predecessor, Leo the thirteenth, who addressed
the changes that were occurring in society. Back at the
end of the nineteenth century. People were moving off the
farms into cities, so there was a kind of a
(31:41):
shift in the society. There was industrialization that was going on,
there was a dislocation of families, and so really there
was a new moment, and Leo wrote several important encyclicals
that were the beginning of the tradition of Catholic social thought.
Leo has talked about AI and talked about other things
that are going on in our society. I'm feeling that
(32:02):
this will be a kind of an Augustinian approach to
the status questianers, where are we right now? As a
global society. What is the role of the church at
this moment when technologies seem to be running away with us,
that we seem to be losing our foundations in society
and in the church, and people are just they're at
(32:24):
a loss where to look for something that's going to
help them live a life that's meaningful and it's founded
on truth. So I would like to see that that's
what it is, and I think that there are indications
that that may be what he's going to be doing.
But it'll be great to see what his first encyclicals.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, I want to move on to this report and
the pillar this week that revealed and archbishop in France
recently appointed a priest convicted of raping a sixteen year
old boy, and he appointed that priest to the position
of archdiocese and chancellor as quote an act of mercy.
(33:01):
Archbishop guy Andre Marie de Carrimel of the Archdiocese of
Toulouse made father Dominique Spina or Spina, the Chancellor an
episcopal delegate for marriages in that archdiocese. In two thousand
and six, his father Spinna was convicted of a rape
(33:22):
of a sixteen year old boy. He subsequently was sentenced
to five years in prison. Father. According to the archbishop,
the position is quote mostly administrative. What do you make
of the judgment here? I mean the chancellor of marriages
for the archdiocese has served prison time and they consider
this an act of mercy.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Well, if the facts has stated are correct, raping a
sixteen year old is canonical crime that can be punished
by removal from the ecclesiastical state. That he can be
removed from the priesthood. I'd like to know if the
diocese ever sent this case to Rome for judgment, because
this is this is a serious matter. The local diocese
(34:04):
does not have the discretion to say, well, he did
his four years in prison and that's all the punishment
that's going to be given. We have to remember this
is a crime that involved his use of the priesthood
to accomplish horrendous evil of a sexual nature on a youth,
on a youth or a teenager in this case. So
(34:25):
this is horrible. The idea that this man should now
be given a very important role in his archdiocese and
that it has something to do even with the marriage formation,
is this is ridiculous. I have to say that bishop
has made a grave error. The message that's sent out
(34:46):
is Catholic priests who commit crimes and end up in
French prisons have a home in archdiocese and administration in Toulouse,
rather than they should be prosecuted canonically, perhaps phaps removed
from the priesthood, but they should certainly not be given
the care of souls. He's demonstrated by his life that
(35:06):
he doesn't care for souls. And if he says now
that I have okay, well the answer is care for
them by prayer and penance, because that's what he should
be doing.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah, zero tolerance, except when you decide to extend an
act of mercy to an offender like this, it just
looks horrible. It's a horrible witness for the church, particularly today,
given all we know. Okay, here's I want to do this.
I'm instituting this every week, Posse. We're going to do
a round up at the end of every episode. Given
what we saw this week, is Leo charting a course
(35:36):
for change or is this a continuation of the Francis Revolution?
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Bob Well, I've been reading into some material about his life,
and we also see from the way he conducts himself
that is he's kind of a man of deliberation and
of careful talk, etc. So I don't expect that we're
(36:02):
going to see some of the large reversals that we
would like to see on matters like the blessing of
homosexuals or the Latin mass. I think that if those
do come, it's going to take a while, but we'll see.
I think we're going to see very soon what kind
of papacy that this is going to be. I mean
this example you just brought forth about the bishop. He
(36:23):
used to be the head of the officers that appointed bishops,
and so you should know about these men, about the
things that they do well and things that they do badly,
How he handles cases like that, It's going to tell
us a lot about what type of leader he is.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Father. Is this revolution or change.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Uncertain at this moment, but we'll learn pretty quickly. Because
you know the heads of the dicastories, meaning the departments
basically these cabinet officers and running the Holy See. If
he makes some changes that indicate that he's not happy
with some of the personnel that Pope Francis put in there,
that'll be a good sign. If people get reconfirmed by
(37:05):
and large as a group, then that's pretty much an
indication that Pope Leo would be happy to continue the
policies that these people implemented previous to Leo taking the throne.
And unless Pope Leo said's an entirely new course, the
chances are those policies will continue. So that remains to
be seen. He is a deliberate man, he's thoughtful, he's
(37:26):
a good listener, and he's been used to executive authority
because remember head of his order for twelve years, he's
been a diocesan bishop. He knows how to make decisions
and let's see what those are.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, and he got high marks, we should say, as
head of the Augustinian Order when he was in his
diocese in Peru. So look, I'm still hopeful. But the
fall and the winter are going to tell the tale.
I hope when the summer ends we begin to see
at least a glimmer of where he means to take
the church, because there's a lot of suffering, confusion and
(38:03):
frankly outrage out there that needs to quell, that needs
to be calmed, and only the pope can really do that. Posse,
We're gonna leave it there. If you want more of
the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to The Arroyo Grande
Show on YouTube or the podcast wherever you get yours
on behalf of Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray. Until the
Posse rides again, Stay the course, follow the light. I'm
(38:26):
Raymond Arroyo. We'll see you next time. Find Arroyo Grande
is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcast. It's available on
the iHeartRadio, Apple wherever you get your podcasts
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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