September 26, 2025 • 49 mins
In this insightful episode of Prayerful Posse, Raymond Arroyo is joined by Fr. Gerald Murray and Robert Royal to unpack Pope Leo’s latest remarks on the Traditional Latin Mass, his comments on LGBT issues, and the Vatican’s ongoing China policy.
The Posse takes a deep dive into the future of liturgy, Church teaching, and global Catholic diplomacy, raising tough questions about polarization, doctrine, and the challenges facing the faithful today.
From the ban on the Latin Mass in Charlotte, NC, to the secret Vatican–China agreement, to the controversy over honoring pro-abortion politicians, this conversation tackles the controversies head-on. The team also explores Pope Leo’s vision of the papacy, his reflections on AI, and his encounters with cardinals like Robert Sarah.
Plus, the Posse reflects on the moving witness of forgiveness at the Charlie Kirk memorial, showing the power of faith to transform even tragedy.
👉 Subscribe to Arroyo Grande for more engaging conversations with leading voices shaping culture, faith, and family.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Pope Leo speaking out on the traditional Latin Mass Church
teaching on LGBT issues and really continue the church's controversial
deal with China. The Prayerful Posse explores it all. Next,
(00:21):
welcome to a very special Prayerful Posse. Be sure to
subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful way to support
our work. It's totally free, so go subscribe like crazy.
And I wanted to announce something I've never done before.
I'm going on a cruise to the Grecian Isles in
the footsteps of the Apostles Saint Paul and Saint John.
We're going to Philippi, Thessalonia, Athens, corinth Crete, Patmos, and
(00:47):
Ephesus to visit the Blessed Virgin's House. Space is very limited,
but this eleven day cruise in September of twenty twenty
six is going to be incredible. Go to Raymond Royo
dot com reserve your spot. It's going to be one
of those life changing trips Family Raymond Royo dot com.
And now I'd like to welcome the Prayerful Posse. Canon
(01:09):
Lawyer Priests of the Archdiocese of New York. Father Gerald Murray,
an editor in Chief of the Catholic Thing dot Org.
Robert royalgentleman, thanks for coming together again. Pope Leo did
this interview with journalist Elise Allen for a new book
which is making some news. He said this about the
traditional Latin Mass, between the Tridentine Mass and the Vatican
(01:30):
two Mass, the Mass of poll the sixth. I'm not
sure where that's going to go. It's obviously very complicated.
I know that part of that issue, unfortunately, has become
a gain part of a process of polarization. People have
used the liturgy as an excuse for advancing other topics.
It's become a political tool, and that's very unfortunate. Father
(01:56):
Pope Leo went on to say that there would be
an opportunity soon to meet with the TLM community, presumably
referring to the TLM to be celebrated in Saint Peter's
Basilica by Cardinal Raymond Burke.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I had a conversation with him about this last week.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
The Cardinal seemed very optimistic given the permission that was
granted by Pope Leo to say that mass. Your thoughts
on the Pope characterizing the ancient right of the mass
as a part of a process of polarization.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Well, I find this whole language of polarization troubling because
it's basically a Hegelian category, meaning it's a philosophical approach
that truth is in the middle and at the extremes
you have things that are to be rejected. And that's
not how the Catholic Church understands the Gospel, solemn teachings,
(02:48):
and the liturgy is not a polarizing thing in and
of itself because it's a form of worship. And in
that same interview, Pope Leo said that basically the New Mass,
there's not much differ between the New Mass and the
Old Mass if it's well celebrated. And I said, I said,
Pope Leo, don't you understand that this has been an
(03:09):
issue since the end of the Second Vatican Council. It
wasn't made up. Archbishop Lefevre and his followers had some
objections to the changes made in the Mass. There's nothing
wrong with questioning how things are done. When there's a reform,
it should be done respectfully. And I think Pope Benedict
arrived at a very good solution, which is let those
(03:30):
who want the old Mass celebrated, Let those who want
the new Mass celebrated. But to kind of disqualify and say, well,
by advocating for the old mass, you're drawing people to
an extreme position. I don't think that's the right analysis.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah. Well, and I want to get in a moment. Father,
I'll let you steal on this while I go to Bob.
But I need you to describe for people the difference
between those two masses, the new Mass of poll the
sixth and the traditional Latin mask. But Bob, your reaction
to this idea of polarization, but clearly in the same
breath there's some openness here. At least the Pope is
(04:04):
willing to hear an argument.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I think that that is maybe the hopeful takeaway from
what isn't really yet a settled opinion on his part,
and to his credit, he also mentioned the abuses of
the new form of the Mass that have taken place
that have caused some people of more traditional kind of
orientation to object what they are finding. I mean, we've
all talked about the clown masses, and these things go on,
(04:29):
you know, to this day. They go on in yeah,
a strange way. But look, the liturgy is something that
isn't just marginal. It's the way we pray is who
we are, and we need to recognize that at the
deepest possible level that we even know so far as
we know the surveys that were done to the bishops
(04:50):
by Pope Francis. Remember this caused a great controversy. We've
talked about it. Yeah, most bishops, the ones who responded
at least, and we have to assume that the ones
who responded are the that had some interest in telling
the Pope with their thinking.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
The ones who.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Responded said they had no problem in the majority. So
if there is a polarization, I don't think it's coming
at least in my own experience, and I think for
most people's experience, it's not coming from those who want
the traditional LATINSS. You just want the traditional Latin Mass.
They're not looking for any ideological arguments or they're not
even getting into the theology other than the theology of
(05:24):
the liturgy.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Well, and the Pope mentioned the abuses of the New Mass,
but no one suggesting that it be suppressed or banned,
you know, because of that, and father this notion, this narrative.
I'm going to use the term narrative because That's what
I think. It is this narrative that a mass that
was being celebrated, the traditional Latin mass for years under
Pope Benedict, along with the new mass in the same parish.
(05:48):
This didn't cause any conference, there was no polarization. But
this is the narrative. Tell us the difference between that
new mass and the old mass. In substance, what is
difference because even the polpier makes what I would argue
you could quibble about I don't think it's a correct
appreciation that, well they're the same. Just say it in Latin,
say the new mass in Latin.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Well, no, the old mass. The structure of it's essentially
the same as the new mass, because you basically have
the beginning. You have the confedio or the gloria, then
you have the opening prayer, the readings, the offeratry, then
you have the cannon, and then you have the sam
of God and the offering of communion of final blessing.
But the form is a lot different. You know, prayers
(06:30):
at the foot of the altar to begin it. I
remember Alice von Hildebrand, the wife of Dietrich von Hildebrand,
who was a great lover of the traditional Latin Mass,
she said to me. In the old Mass, before you
approached the altar, you begged pardon for your sins. And
it was very symbolically done because the altar boys would
repeat the confedio or after the priest had said it,
(06:52):
and they represented the congregation. Now and reforms that were
done in the fifties, the people could also at a
dialogue Mass say the the only then did you go
up to the altar and kiss it. And the altar
represents Christ, so before you approach the body of Christ,
you asked for pardon. The offeratory prayers were changed, and
that is something that serious objections to. They became blessing
(07:15):
meal time blessing prayers. They weren't as sacrificially oriented as
the old offeratory prayers. Then one of the greatest differences
is the silent canon, because in the old Mass, the
priest says the words, so the whole canon of the
Mass it's very silently, and then the words of consecration
(07:36):
are not heard by most people. Now, all of these change.
The microphones were introduced, and the Vatican did permit microphones
on alters. So you know, Bob will rememberhen I was
a kid, I barely remember the old Mass, but that
was a big difference. And when I went to my
first traditional Latin Mass as a young priest and I
saw the silent canon, I was very moved. You know,
(07:58):
the silent canon is. Pope Benedict said this as a theologian,
it's like the econostasis. You protect the sacred offering by
surrounding it with mystery, just like a kind of statis does.
So that was and then of course we have the
other aspects. Communion was received kneeling at the altar, rail
was received on the tongue. You did not have, you know,
(08:21):
communion in the hand and people standing. So there are
other elements, and you know, people are aware of that.
But the fact of the matter is there are different
sensibilities that prompted the changes, and the Church is willing
to respect those. Under Pope John Pull the second and Benedict,
it was only Pope Rancews who said there's only one
way to look at the Mass, and that was a problem.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, and he cleaved, you know, cut off the entire
tradition that preceded it, or tried to. Meanwhile, and I
guess this is part of that attempt to extinguish the past.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
And as you said, I agree with your father.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
There is something substantively different about the pacing, the timing,
the movements, the gestures, and the people, particularly young people,
they're absorbing that.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I mean, you know, I didn't make the Latin Mass
this week.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I was running too late, but I pulled up right after,
and floods of people are coming out of church, young
people with the babies and the mantillas on their heads.
I mean, there's a mass following here that the church
shouldn't ignore. My bed is Poplio will get an earful
from those who really do understand the difference between the
(09:31):
new and the old, and hopefully they can bring him,
you know, up to speed on the nuances of that
and what's really attracting this young audience. Meanwhile, the band
on the TLM goes into effect full effect. In the
Diocese of Charlotte, North Carolina. We talked about this early
on the beginning of October. There'll be no more mass
Latin Mass in the parishes, just in one remote worship center.
(09:55):
It's not even a parish, and the outgoing Bishop of Monterey,
California has killed the additional Latin Mass in that diocese
as he moves to take over the Diocese of Boston, Texas,
where I'm sure he'll do the same. Father, this seems
to be an obsession at this point.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Well, I think this is part of the syndrome we
could say, of supporting Pope Francis's vision of things and saying,
you know, those bishops say, Pope Francis made this decision,
we must go along with it. And the only answer
to that is just say, now, wait a minute. Pope
Francis also did not abolish the Fraternity of Saint Peter
and the Institute of Christ the King, in other words,
(10:31):
and he gave them, you know, permission to continue to
do what they were always doing, which is to celebrate
the Latin Mass. So it never made sense to me
that you could have some priests who are authorized by
the Pope and then others their local bishops, you know,
are forbidding them. There was a schizophrenia here which which
basically is shown in the fact that you can have
(10:52):
a diocese where the Latin Mass is still permitted and
then the diocese next door they shut it all down.
It makes no sense to me, because where in the
history of the church do pastors throw people out of
their parishes who are obedient, loyal Catholics because the form
of the mass that they like, the Pope didn't really
like it. We just have to say, Holy Father, you're
(11:14):
entieted your opinion, but please, you know, isn't the church
more than the hierarchy. We've always been told that you're right,
We're people of God.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Listen, it's the people of God's church. Until the people
of God want you know, to be sacred, Reverend Holy
and tie themselves to tradition, then it's no longer the
people of God. It's the people of the Pope, the
Church of the Pope. Bob. I want to move to
something that we've also covered in recent weeks, really in years,
regarding diplomatic relations with China. The Pope said this quote.
(11:47):
In the short term, I will continue the policy on
China that the Holy See has followed. But Leo's referring
to that still secret Vatican agreement with China allowing the
CCP input in too choosing Catholic bishops and confirming them.
What do you think is the point here of continuing
this policy?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Well, I would say overall, and this one point is
just part of an overall sense that I think we
get of him from this interview. He says, actually early
on in the excerpts that have been published, that it's
something new for him to be on the world stage,
that there's a huge learning curve that he's going through.
And I kind of take that reading as the kind
(12:30):
of thing that a parish priest comes when he comes
into a new parish, and you know, the bishop may
say to him, look, take a year, learn what's going on,
figure out what's good and what's bad, and what's happened
in the past, and then after you've got a grip
on what's been happening out there, you can do something.
I don't know that he's been very intimately involved in
these negotiations with China. He's been to China, as I understand,
(12:53):
he has some experience of what's there. But certainly he
has to know that since that Seks so called secret
agreement was signed, that the situation of Catholics in China
has not improved, and in fact there's been pressure put
on the hierarchy. As our friendly sche has documented, ten
(13:13):
bishops are missing. We don't know where they are. They
could be dead, they could just be in prison. They
could be being brainwashed, which is typical the Chinese these days,
and then a lot of pressure is put on the
individual churches where the signs of the Virgin Mary crosses
are taken down. President she is talking about cynicizing the
(13:34):
Chinese Church, which means making it internal to China and
not externally connected to the Vatican, and all sorts of
difficulties like that that. Inevitably, I think he's a fair man.
He's an intelligent man. If he's going to look at
this in an objective way, he's going to have to
deal with this at some point. He probably isn't in
a position to make any changes right now, but inevitably
(13:57):
there's going to have to be some change, because it's
not a situation. We know our friend Jimmy Lai is
finally being tried in China for treason and some other
trumped up charges, and we can hope that he has
found guilty and expelled and allowed to go to England
where he has a citizenship.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Father, it is outrageous to me, and I frankly had forgotten,
and it's a pity that the church is not consistently
raising up these ten missing bishops who have either been
arrested or under house arrest, have been ferried away to
some concentration camp. The fact that the church isn't holding
(14:36):
these people up and drawing attention to the suffering church
in China. Do you think there's some long range plan
here or the pope is evolving one.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
I don't think the Pope has a long range planned
at this point. Now, the Secretary of the State may have,
because they are the ones who negotiated the agreement. But
I'll chime in and say absolutely regrettable because again, the
the role of the Catholic Church, the mission of church
is not to engage in diplomatic negotiations with governments. I mean,
(15:07):
does that how the Roman martyrs treated the emperors? You know,
you know before we go to the you know, the
coliseum to be slain. You know, could we just have
a sit down and write a document. We don't do that.
You know, the Church's mission is to preach salvation and
that's what's being harmed by disagreement. I don't know if
you saw as part of the latest news out of
(15:28):
China's they're forbidding Catholics to use the internet as a
tool to evangelize. This is a new decree coming down,
So you're basically surrendering the selection of your bishops to
a group of people who do not have any interest
in what you're doing except to shut it down. And
that's what they're doing. They're shutting it down one by one.
(15:48):
And you know, if the Pope wants to display wisdom
in this matter, he should call in cardinals en and
convene a meeting to kind of reassess the whole thing.
Because Carden said, you know, when we was talking about peripheries,
you know, getting to Rome to tell things, Hong Kong
is the most parent on the longest periphery from Rome
(16:08):
that you can imagine the cardinals sends a ninety five
year old man with wisdom and experience. He should be
listened to.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, and he made that trip to let the cardinals
know about this before this conclave. You would think that,
you know, there might have been some sensitivity to that.
Hopefully that witness endures. That's a good segue. Father to
Pope Leo, reflecting on how he sees his role as pope,
he said this, I don't see my primary role as
(16:37):
trying to be the solver of the world's problems. I
don't see my role as that at all, really, although
I think that the Church has a voice, a message
that needs to continue to be preached, to be spoken
and spoken loudly. End quote. Father. Then Bob, isn't Jesus
Christ the answer to the world's problems?
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Well, of course, because the real problem in the world
the sin and ignorance, you know, ignorance of God and
the refusal to obey His law. The root to happiness
bury across the cavalry, die and rise with Christ. So
the message of salvation, that's what by the way, La
Latin mass. You know, people wanting to have lexio devine
(17:17):
or read the scripture's prayers. People know what the church offers.
They want it. Now when we get into this environmentalism
and immigration advocacy, now we have the artificial intelligence challenge.
You know, we always have to step back and say,
you know, we're speaking from the perspective of what Christ
is wanting to do in the world through us. We
(17:37):
shouldn't pose as an alternate expert who's going to tell
governments what to do.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Bob, your reaction to this job description if he will, If.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
I'm not mistaken, it was Madonna who objection to Frances
saying this because you know, people who are world they
want the Church to talk about world matters. And I'm
glad that he said that directly. Yeah, he kind of
also then in the interview, and this I think again
as part of his learning curve that he's going through
as an international public figure. Plague on the biggest stage
(18:08):
that you can possibly imagine, which is the Church, the
Catholic Church in the world, he still also talks about
you know, he talks about things like immigration and climate
change and whatnot. The Church doesn't have any particular insight
into these things. I mean, what should the immigration policy
be in the United States with the church here? And
(18:30):
what he has often said is we should respect the
dignity of human beings. Well, yeah, of course we should.
All human beings have dignity that was given to them
by God. But doesn't that doesn't solve the question of
how much immigration can any particular country tolerate In Europe,
and I think this is something that he's going to
have to confront before long. Something similar to what Father
(18:53):
was talking about in China is going on. We just
learned in the past few days that apps like hallow
are being banned in the European Union and Bible online
Bible resources, presumably because they say out of worries about
safety or you know, somehow these are going to harm
minorities or maybe Muslims. And there's a kind of a
(19:15):
veto power that is now going on about the presence
of Christianity in developed countries. We see the same thing
in a less formalized way here in the United States.
So look, these are big questions that he's going to
have to grow up to. And I like, starting from
the humble point that we don't really First of all,
it isn't really our business to try to save the
(19:37):
world by solving all the world's problems, because the Church
can't do that. Really, to emphasize those important things that
Christ is the answer. We have certain moral principles that
flow out of our faith in Jesus Christ. We seek
to respect all people, and we provide a floor there
for people of goodwill, and not everybody is of good will.
(19:57):
It was playing as an international actor. People will who
want to respect that can use that to find ways
to solve certain problems. But it's not the church, the
Church's world to solve those problems.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, Father, since Bob raised that theologian Madonna, I'm gonna
read her comment.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
She reacted to the pope's job description.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
There, she said, the whole point of teaching and learning
the Gospel is to inspire people to love one another
and make the world a better place, not just with words,
with actions, which is exactly what Jesus did. I'm truly
disappointed by this, Madonna said, are you disappointed, Father.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
No, you know, I'm not disappointed because I think it's
a necessary corrective. The church is not founded in order
that we would have national parks with no garbage on this,
you know, on the on the lawns. And I'm all
in favor of having national parks with no garbage, but
that's not the mission of the church. The mission of
the church is to get people into heaven. It's to
(20:54):
help souls no love and serve God in this life
and be happy with Him forever in the next. That's
the message. And you know, Madonna, she's you know, she
is a Catholic, and she was raised a Catholic, and
I pray that she'll, you know, make it to heaven
along with me and all of us. But you know,
the pope's job is not a worldly success story mission,
(21:14):
you know, solve solve all the problems. That's not the truth.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
During a lengthy interview or this length the interview rather
with Alan, he also the Pope reflected on LGBT issues,
which he placed in the category of hot button issues.
Your reaction to this comment, he said, quote, people want
the church doctrine to change, want attitudes to change. I
(21:39):
think we have to change attitudes before we even think
about changing what the church says about any given question, Bob.
He went on to say he didn't foresee the church
teaching changing in this regard, but that that idea that
changing attitudes have to occur before church teaching, what does
that mean?
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Yeah, I think that was the most unfortunate part of
this interview. And I think that there too, we see
a reflection that he's he's groping around. He is not
used to speaking in public like this. Bishop Baron said
that he sat at the table with pop Leo then
Robert Prevo during the Synod several times, and he was
the most quiet participant on these sented tables, and so
(22:26):
you know, he's a reticent man. He's thoughtful, but he's
a reticent kind of man. And unfortunately he gave the
impression I don't even like a pope using the term
hot button issues because it makes it look like what
we're talking about is political issues rather than the dogmatic
teachings of the church. This isn't just about, you know,
should there be this or that type of celebration on
(22:47):
a feast day or one thing or another. These things
are things that are negotiable and their issues in a
kind of a generalized way. When we're talking about LGBT,
we're talking about the nature of man and woman placed
in the garden of Eden by God and you know,
made it in his image and likeness. A whole history
of our Western civilization comes forth from that very honorable history.
(23:08):
I think in a number of ways, he's talked about
the importance of the family and how he knows that
even talking about the traditional family as we now have
to call it will anger some people. So look, he's
a little he's a little leery, I think in touching
these issues, and I think he misspoke there. I at
least hope that he does. He doesn't think that that
show the pope can change doctrine. He obviously can't. We
(23:33):
received doctrine and we develop it as Newman told us,
but we never change doctrine.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Well, father, this is the danger of a pope granting these,
you know, extensive interviews over many days. You get dragged
inevitably into areas that, frankly, if you're not someone comfortable
with enunciating your thoughts in public, you can get pulled
into areas where, frankly, you shouldn't go.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yes, this is the objection that's traditionally given to pope's
giving interviews. They didn't do that. Piez the twelfth didn't
give interviews. Paul the six didn't. Uh, there's a reason now,
when the pope is going to issue, for instance, a
sermon or an audience talk, that's drafted, it's reviewed, there's
a theologian who reads it. In other words, every care
(24:19):
is taken in the Holy See. So what the pope
says will be doctrinally accurate, will be pastorally sensitive, and
will be to the point in the interview that's you know,
can be an intellectual ambush. You know, someone were to
interview me and to say, well, you know, the situation
of the church in Bolivia includes the following, what do
you think? I have no way of answering that quote
(24:40):
I'm always going on Olivia.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
You know.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
So if the pope is going to be asked stuff
and then uses expressions such as, you know, changing attitudes,
and my answer is which attitudes are you referring to?
Because attitude, there are good attitudes and there are bad attitudes.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Well, this is a question.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Can you get a plurality of people supporting a given sin?
And then we can move to ask for an official
change in church teaching. I mean, talk father about the
nature of the church. Bob touched on this, the nature
of church teaching. This is not something that the next
guy elected can just wish away and declare, you know,
a new teaching. This is not within the job description
(25:22):
or purview of the pope.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
That's correct, And this is where the struggle is. Why
I object to polarization. Am I being polemical if I
enunciate the teaching of the church when there are many
people object to it? Of course not. Father James Martin
might say, well, you're polemical because you're saying the church
is teaching is unchangeable. Now I'm not being polemical, I'm
being Catholic. The Catholic Church does not present a program
like the Democrats and the Republicans do every four years
(25:45):
at their convention, one year the in favor of this,
then they flip. Now, that's not how we do it.
The Church's teaching on morality is based on the natural
law and divine revelation in the Old and New Testaments.
The Church is teaching on homosexuary has been consistent from
the beginning. There is no possibility of changing it. And
(26:07):
then when you say attitudes have to change, well, which attitude?
I'm happy when I hear church teaching because it confirms
me in my good instincts that there's an order in
the world that God put there. If you say, well,
it's a bad attitude, because people who like to you know,
perform homosexual acts. They object because you say their acts
are bad. That's not an attitude. They're using emotional appeals
(26:30):
to try and silence people who make them feel bit Actually,
a bad conscience is one of the best things you
can have, because it's a reminder that you have a
duty to God. You know, the conscience, Newman said, the
conscience is the aboriginal vicar of Christ. It's God speaking
to you in a very mysterious way. So when I
give a sermon and up people are annoyed, you know,
(26:53):
as long as they didn't talk about something silly. Okay,
you know, but if I talked about Catholic morality, if
you're angry, I'm doing you a favorite because I'm making
you think.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Continuing with Popo Leo, he addressed the Diocese of Rome
recently at the latter in Basilica, and he encouraged the
clergy and the diocese to walk accompany the people in
a way that is quote supportive, empathetic, discreet, non judgmental,
and able to welcome everyone. Father is non judgmental attitudes
(27:26):
and welcoming people. Is that the new benchmark for the clergy.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
This is again one of the areas where we have
we have a huge amount of confusion in the church.
You know, Christ said judge not lest you be judged,
but the context reveals it's condemned not because he also
said that is part of that section of the Gould
condemnation meaning you can't pass a final judgment on the
state of soul of someone you object to, but you
(27:52):
certainly can issue what we call fraternal correction and saying
your objective behavior violates the Gospels standards. So we have
to be judgmental.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Well, Bob, isn't isn't welcoming people and accompanying them, correcting
them as well.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I mean that's what Jesus did.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Jesus didn't say, hey, all your tax collectors and prostitutes,
let's do more of what you're doing. No, no, he
called them to something different and that was a companiment
and welcome too.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
As my colleague Brad Miner wrote it, the Catholic thing
the other day, whatever happened to go and sin no more?
You know that ultimately, look and Leo says this in
the interview. He says, you know, we welcome everyone. And
the real meaning of totos totos totals everybody, everybody. Everybody
is not that we welcome you because you're a member
of this or that group or ethnicity or sexual orientation.
(28:45):
We welcome you because you're a child, or you're a
a son or daughter of God. And so God welcomes
everybody in, but he welcomes them to his world. He
doesn't welcome them into changing his world or you know,
redefining things or saying, you know, I was born in
the wrong body, so I have to transition into a
different gender. It's an entirely different way of thinking about
(29:07):
things that is typical in our democratic political discourse these days.
And I'm glad that Leo said that, although then we
get this other way of speaking about things that makes
it look like we can't judge and father, I think
it's exactly right that we can't judge people's ultimate salvation
or damnation. But even in that Jesuit discernment that Pope
(29:30):
Francis promoted during his entire papacy, you know, the watchword
is see judge act, So you know, you have to
see an objective situation. If you don't do that, what
are you You're just sort of a passive witness to
what's going on around you when you accept everything that's happening. Now,
(29:50):
you'd have to be a fool to be that sort of.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
No, you're either diluted or crazy. Stirring up a bit
of controversy speaking of deluted and crazy. The decision was
made by the Chicago Archbishop, Cardinal Blaze Supage to honor
Illinois Senator Dick Durbin. Now Durbin is a lifelong Democrat.
They're granting him a quote Lifetime Achievement award from the
(30:16):
Archdiison Office of Human Dignity and Solidarity. Durbin's a Catholic
with a long history of defending abortion on demand, et cetera,
and he'll receive this award quote for his work with
immigrants at a November third fundraiser in Chicago. Remarkably, Bishop
Thomas Proprocki of Springfield, Illinois is condemning the move due
(30:39):
to Durbin's record, and Senator Durbin actually resides in Springfield
but considers Cardinal Supach in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
His bishop.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Archbishop Salvator Courdlioni of San Francisco, also weighed in supporting Paprocky.
Some have said Paprocki is threatening unity in the USCCB
for taking this stand. Bob your.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
You know, I used to go out to Chicago quite
a bit, and I was quite close with the previous cardinal, Archbishop,
Cardinal Francis George, and I used to push him about
Senator Durbin because Durbin obviously was one of the leaders
of one of the leaders of the Catholics who were
pro abortion, and I wanted him basically to take a
public stand against Senator Durbin, but he said that he
(31:24):
preferred to invite him in and to be pastoral with him. Now,
for me, that was not enough, because there was a
public offense, and it seemed to me that there needed
to be a public rebuke of what was going on.
But Cardinal George, a very intelligent man, a brave man
in many ways, had to deal with the politics of
Chicago and the politics of even his presbyterate in Chicago.
(31:47):
But there's a difference between taking a different approach to
somebody who's a public stumbling block, which is to say
he presents a scandal to the Catholic people and honorary
him with what is obviously a rationalization that he's good
on immigration. Well, gee, that's wonderful. He's good. He's so
(32:08):
called good on immigration. But in the meantime, how many
thousands of babies were never born, were killed in the
womb because of the political activities of Senator Durbin. To
call this a lifetime achievement and then to say that, actually,
I believe that the archbishop has also said that this
is a reaching out to the other side. I don't
(32:29):
know what kind of reaching out this is. This is
kind of a validation of people who say things in
public that are contrary to the Catholic faith. So look,
it's a tremendous scandal. I wish other bishops would weigh
in on this, not just Paproki and Cordolione. Unfortunately, I
don't think we're going to see this, But maybe a
new day we'll gone with an American pope in Rome
(32:52):
who may take a different view of things, and he's
from Chicago.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah, well, Father Cardinal soupicch is defending the honor this way,
he said, at the heart of the consistent ethic of
life is the recognition that Catholic teaching on the life
and dignity cannot be reduced to a single issue, even
an issue as important as abortion. The annual celebration of
Immigrants Keep Hope Alive will recognize all the critically important
(33:18):
contributions Senator Durbin has taken to advance Catholic social teaching
in the areas of immigration, care for the poor, laudauto
c and world peace. Father, your reaction is that good enough?
Does that wash away all the other abortion objections?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Well, two answers. Number One, abortions of crime not an issue,
so that the language is very revelatory. Secondly, let's say
that so he says, Governor Senator Durbin's bad un abortion
good and immigration. Let's say it was the other way around.
Let's say he was against abortion both was in favor
(33:56):
of shooting immigrants who entered the country illegally and then
bearing them somewhere. Would he be given an honor if
that was his political stance, of course not. What this
does is minimize is the importance of abortion because the
Democratic Party is not interested in stopping abortion, and Dick Durbin,
as a loyal Democrat, is not going to buck that.
(34:17):
Me he probably believes that abortion's okay, he certainly votes
that way. Well, if that's what he thinks, the Catholic
Church has to step away and say, look, you are
not following the teaching of Christ, and therefore Christ representatives
earth are not going to honor you, because we're going
to send the message out to voters and everybody else.
The Catholic Church says it's against abortion, but it's not
(34:38):
really against it because we honor the people who fund
and pay for it. So Cardinal Supik's decision is unthinkable
in the reign of Pious to twelve. Okay, never would happened. Now,
Pope Leo's got to step up and say, in the
reign of Pope Leo, are we going to allow Catholic
politician to be honored by Catholic card We have to
(35:00):
stop this.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, I looked it up. The Archdiocese of Chicago actually
has and Bob, you know this. It probably originated under
Cardinal Francis George. There's a long standing policy of not
granting awards to politicians who oppose Church moral teaching. This
would constitute a violation of Church moral teaching. I'll give
(35:22):
you the last word on this topic book.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
Yeah, and the Bishop's Conference as a whole has warned
against this as well, because look, we have enough confusion
already in the world about what a Catholics teach and
his father rightly says. People look at what you do.
If you say that you're against something or you're for something,
that's fine. They pay attention to it, they listen to
what you're saying. But if you then go to Washington
(35:46):
and what you do is you say, oh, well, look, personally,
I'm against abortion, but you people out there kill all
the babies you want. You know, it's a decision that
you have to make. I can't make that for you.
That's effectively what a lot of these Catholic politicians have
been doing for years. I applaud both Paproki and CORDOLIONI.
Cordalione has told Nancy Pelosi not to present herself for
(36:08):
communion in the Archdiocese of San Francisco, which was a
courageous thing to do, because we know what the social
environment is like out there in San Francisco and the
power that she wields, and we need some more bishops
to step up that way and take the hit. You know,
it's not going to be pretty, but if you're going
to be a Catholic bishop, be a Catholic bishop.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
This is a rather odd story.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Pope Leo delivered a video message to a mixed faith
audience in his native Chicago. Again we're back in Chicago.
This was before an als walk for life.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Galla watch.
Speaker 5 (36:42):
Our Jewish brothers and sisters tell us that one of
the great projects given the human family by God is
to complete and perfect the very good creation given us
tikun olam. As our Muslim friends share in Dahadid, we
are told that seventy thousand angels are present when caretakers
(37:03):
arrive in the morning, seventy thousand other angels arrive.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
In the evening.
Speaker 5 (37:09):
I believe that you two are angels. I pray that
rather than being possessed by frustration or hopelessness or despair,
you surrender yourself to the mystery of human existence, to
the love of your caregivers, and to the embrace of
the Divine One.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Father. Your thoughts on the language used there? Obviously the
posts trying to be inclusive, But no, Jesus, just the Divine.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
One, the Divine One. Yes, sternly God is divine, so
he is the Divine One. But that's not the usual
language that we use. We use the Holy Trinity. We
speak about the incarnate Son of God. It's all good.
I agree with him that we have to promote works
of charity and love, and religious differences don't absolve us
(38:01):
of the obligation to love our neighbor. So of course
that's all to the good. But you know, using this
kind of errendousis language. I don't like that. In fact,
I've noted that over the years, whenever Catholics have ecumenical meetings,
they tend not to use the name of the Fathers
on Holy Spirit if they're for inter religious people present.
(38:21):
That's a mistake. We should always start everything in the
Catholic Church in the name of the Holy Trinity.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Yeah, Bob, you know, it didn't disturb me that he
quote quoted, you know, Jewish teachings and Muslim teachings, but
the natural follow on is and Jesus teaches us xyz.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Yeah. At a time when even many Catholics don't know
our own tradition sometimes I mean people in the public
eye as I often am. I'm sure you are, Raymond.
To you, you're shocked at what how little our Catholics
actually know, or how they've been misinformed by just the
atmosphere around us in the way that the media tended
to start with the church is about It would be
(39:01):
great to quote from the Gospels, you know, and say
that we believe that what our Lord has told us
is the culmination of all these good impulses that exist
in other religious traditions. To do that, of course, again,
to put yourself in the cross here is. But if
you're unwilling to do that, you're not really willing to
stand up for Jesus. And I think Leo wants to
(39:24):
do that. We see that in the interview he emphasizes
that quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
There's another aspect of the interview, this Crux interview, where
he said, quote, it's very difficult to discover the presence
of God in artificial intelligence.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Leo recently refused to allow the creation.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Of a personal avatar of himself, so you know, this
technology is weighing heavily on his mind. Father, your thoughts
about AI and the implications.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Yeah, no, it's a very important question for mankind to
figure out how we're going to legally frame the use
of this new tool, you know, in the scientific toolbox,
and it's very important that it not be used for
evil purposes. And the Pope is absolutely right about that.
On the other hand, yeah, it is a very useful tool,
(40:16):
and the Pope says it in the interview. I was
pleased said in medical operations, you know, when you're doing surgery,
artificial intelligence can be very useful, you know, and cancer research,
artificial intelligence can view cells much more quickly and thoroughly
than the human eye or the mechanism. So for me,
I'm not a scientist. I fascinated when things, you know, develop,
(40:38):
but I don't know enough to tell people what to do.
But I do know as a canon lawyer with a
legal mind. Governments that want to do justice must regulate
this so that you don't have AI activities promoting crime
and harm to people and legal drug use and all
this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Ed Pendons reporting our correspondent friend in Rome this week
that Pope Leo has received African Cardinal.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Robert Sarah in a private audience.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
The details of the meeting remained private, but in a
recent interview, Cardinal Sarah said he was looking with great
confidence to Leo's pontificate. He wishes fiducia suplicans. That was
the document under Pope Francis that allowed gave marriages and
relationships to be blessed. Cardinal Sarah says that document should
be forgotten. Sarah's praised Leo's focus on Christ, his spirit
(41:30):
of listening, dialogue, prudent consideration of tradition. He also is
called into question the crackdown on the traditional Latin mask.
Your thoughts, Bob on this audience and what it might yield.
Speaker 4 (41:43):
Yeah, I wish we had some more detail about this,
because obviously, when a figure like Father James Martin, who's
a darling of the mainstream media, meets with the Pope
he immediately, that immediately gets broadcast everywhere, and the spin
starts as if all you know, Popolio is getting weak,
he's pro LGBT. I think he's already laid down some
(42:05):
markers at the reset. The receiving of LGBT is going
to be on Catholic principles. But I hope we'll see
more of that in the future. Meanwhile, when someone like
Cardinal Burke meets with the Pope and he's going to
be doing a high light and Mass in Saint Peter's
Basilica in a few weeks, or Cardinal Sarah, who is
one of the deepest, deepest spirits we have among the
(42:27):
hierarchy of the church. When they meet, we don't get
the same kind of media buzz. We don't get the
sense of there's something else bubbling up in the church.
And so I'm encouraged that on the one hand, there's
going to be this opening to the traditional Latin Mass,
and on the other hand that Popolio was willing to
spend enough time with Cardinal Sarah, who we probably knows
(42:50):
is a wise counselor and a deep spirit who he
would be wise to listen carefully to so let's hope
that that develops over the future and it begins to
manifest itself in how the church has seen publicly.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Well, this is also the emerging church. I mean, this
is the only font of ordinations and real growth we're
seeing in the church. It's there, it's in Africa. Some
cultural news I need to get to, both related to
the assassination of Charlie Kirk and its aftermath. In the
wake of the tragedy, late night host Jimmy Kimmel was
suspended then reinstated days later for comments he made regarding
(43:27):
the assassination. He tried to say that the MAGA and
the Conservatives were somehow to blame for this murderer, and
then the aftermath was characterized as an active censorship. Was
it an active censorship, father or government censorship?
Speaker 3 (43:47):
As far as I can see, the government nothing to
do with it. It's the management and ownership of that network
that did.
Speaker 5 (43:52):
So.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
You know, the very people who get upset when a
businessman shuts down a failing enterprise or something that brings
discredit on the business. You know, wait a minute, that's
not your business. You don't own it, you're not invested
in it. So businessmen can do what they want, and
it's up to them to you know, fight it in
court if it gets sued by the person they remove.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yeah, Bob, I have to get to this and then
I'll get father's reaction as well. The memorial for Charlie
Kirk was held at Cardinals Stadium in Phoenix before a
near capacity crowd. Millions of people looked in. His widow,
Erica Kirk, delivered an emotional, very powerful remarks about her
late husband and the movement he started, his faith and
(44:37):
notably missus. Kirk declared that she had forgiven her husband's killer.
Your thoughts, Bob on that event and its effects.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
Yeah, look, I watched that with my wife and the
two of us had tears in her eyes when she
said that, because it was clearly something that she struggled
to be able to say. And God bless her. Your
husband and is just dead in a horrible fashion. This
unfortunately deluded young man who gets sucked into left wing
(45:08):
politics and the whole trans ideology thing shoots your husband
and you go and you stand up in front of
not only those twenty thousand people in the stadium itself,
but millions of people all around the world. I got
a note from a priest who told me that he
was talking with a priest in I think Zayir, and
(45:29):
this priest is out in the wilds evangelizing, and everybody
is talking about Charlie Kirk. I mean, it's just amazing
the way that the story went out around the world.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
But that's what.
Speaker 4 (45:41):
We're called to do. I mean, Jesus says, forgive your enemies,
pray for them.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
You know.
Speaker 4 (45:46):
I've written two books about martyrs, and one of the
things that's always struck me about martyrs is the way
that even at the point when they've got the gun
pointing at them, or they're about to be killed in
some other fashion, very few of them apostasize, and almost
all of them are there praying and forgiving the people
who were about to kill them. So look to me.
As many people have said, it was a kind of
(46:07):
a Protestant evangelical event in terms of the affect of it, Yes,
but that was really a culminating moment and maybe for
the Christianity in the United States, a turning point in
and of itself.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
The Father I have to say, I was at a
football game watch party, okay, and the game was so
bad they flipped on the Charlie Kirk memorial. You had
men who know, these guys who don't practice faith at all,
tears in their eyes, some of them saying they had
just opened the Bible for the first time in their lives.
After Charlie Kirk was assassinated. And this moment clearly had
(46:44):
an effect on young men in particular.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
For whatever reason, what are you seeing or hearing?
Speaker 3 (46:50):
Yeah, no, I think to the words of scripture, where
sin has abounded, grace has abounded even more. I mean,
what Charlie's wife did was a manifestation of her deep
and love of God. We are called to forgive those
who persecute us, and she did it. In this Bob
said to millions and millions of people with great confidence
(47:11):
and love, this is how the world gets converted. This
is why martyrs and those that you know are associated
with the family members and friends. This is why they
have such an influence on the world. I mean, look,
you mentioned Jimmy Laie earlier. Jimmy Laie is a Catholic convert.
You know, who's an elderly man at this point in
an on air conditioned cell who is being persecuted precisely
(47:34):
because he upholds what Christ said, you know, the freedom
of the sons of God. That's an inspiration. I every
day I think about Jimmy and I say, this is
I'm so happy that we have people like that in
the world, and I had you know, the Kirk family
now becomes one of the most important historical figures in
the history of the United States because they exemplify what
(47:56):
Christianity means to this country. It's the bedrock of how
we treat each other.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah, it's curious.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Trump was at the UN after that event and he
said no country can survive without law, borders, and religion.
I thought it was an interesting adenda there, which you
don't often hear at the UN. So that was pretty telling.
Even Trump has been moved by this event.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Gents, we're gonna leave it there.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Grateful to you all as always, and look, if you
want more of the Royal Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to
the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube the Royal Grande Podcast
wherever you get yours on behalf of Robert Royal, Father
Gerald Murray. Until the Posse rides again, Stay the course,
follow the light.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
I'm ready at Arroyo We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
is available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Speaker 4 (49:00):
ITS book A practice plish
Pope Leo speaking out on the traditional Latin Mass Church
teaching on LGBT issues and really continue the church's controversial
deal with China. The Prayerful Posse explores it all. Next,
(00:21):
welcome to a very special Prayerful Posse. Be sure to
subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful way to support
our work. It's totally free, so go subscribe like crazy.
And I wanted to announce something I've never done before.
I'm going on a cruise to the Grecian Isles in
the footsteps of the Apostles Saint Paul and Saint John.
We're going to Philippi, Thessalonia, Athens, corinth Crete, Patmos, and
(00:47):
Ephesus to visit the Blessed Virgin's House. Space is very limited,
but this eleven day cruise in September of twenty twenty
six is going to be incredible. Go to Raymond Royo
dot com reserve your spot. It's going to be one
of those life changing trips Family Raymond Royo dot com.
And now I'd like to welcome the Prayerful Posse. Canon
(01:09):
Lawyer Priests of the Archdiocese of New York. Father Gerald Murray,
an editor in Chief of the Catholic Thing dot Org.
Robert royalgentleman, thanks for coming together again. Pope Leo did
this interview with journalist Elise Allen for a new book
which is making some news. He said this about the
traditional Latin Mass, between the Tridentine Mass and the Vatican
(01:30):
two Mass, the Mass of poll the sixth. I'm not
sure where that's going to go. It's obviously very complicated.
I know that part of that issue, unfortunately, has become
a gain part of a process of polarization. People have
used the liturgy as an excuse for advancing other topics.
It's become a political tool, and that's very unfortunate. Father
(01:56):
Pope Leo went on to say that there would be
an opportunity soon to meet with the TLM community, presumably
referring to the TLM to be celebrated in Saint Peter's
Basilica by Cardinal Raymond Burke.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I had a conversation with him about this last week.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
The Cardinal seemed very optimistic given the permission that was
granted by Pope Leo to say that mass. Your thoughts
on the Pope characterizing the ancient right of the mass
as a part of a process of polarization.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Well, I find this whole language of polarization troubling because
it's basically a Hegelian category, meaning it's a philosophical approach
that truth is in the middle and at the extremes
you have things that are to be rejected. And that's
not how the Catholic Church understands the Gospel, solemn teachings,
(02:48):
and the liturgy is not a polarizing thing in and
of itself because it's a form of worship. And in
that same interview, Pope Leo said that basically the New Mass,
there's not much differ between the New Mass and the
Old Mass if it's well celebrated. And I said, I said,
Pope Leo, don't you understand that this has been an
(03:09):
issue since the end of the Second Vatican Council. It
wasn't made up. Archbishop Lefevre and his followers had some
objections to the changes made in the Mass. There's nothing
wrong with questioning how things are done. When there's a reform,
it should be done respectfully. And I think Pope Benedict
arrived at a very good solution, which is let those
(03:30):
who want the old Mass celebrated, Let those who want
the new Mass celebrated. But to kind of disqualify and say, well,
by advocating for the old mass, you're drawing people to
an extreme position. I don't think that's the right analysis.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah. Well, and I want to get in a moment. Father,
I'll let you steal on this while I go to Bob.
But I need you to describe for people the difference
between those two masses, the new Mass of poll the
sixth and the traditional Latin mask. But Bob, your reaction
to this idea of polarization, but clearly in the same
breath there's some openness here. At least the Pope is
(04:04):
willing to hear an argument.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I think that that is maybe the hopeful takeaway from
what isn't really yet a settled opinion on his part,
and to his credit, he also mentioned the abuses of
the new form of the Mass that have taken place
that have caused some people of more traditional kind of
orientation to object what they are finding. I mean, we've
all talked about the clown masses, and these things go on,
(04:29):
you know, to this day. They go on in yeah,
a strange way. But look, the liturgy is something that
isn't just marginal. It's the way we pray is who
we are, and we need to recognize that at the
deepest possible level that we even know so far as
we know the surveys that were done to the bishops
(04:50):
by Pope Francis. Remember this caused a great controversy. We've
talked about it. Yeah, most bishops, the ones who responded
at least, and we have to assume that the ones
who responded are the that had some interest in telling
the Pope with their thinking.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
The ones who.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Responded said they had no problem in the majority. So
if there is a polarization, I don't think it's coming
at least in my own experience, and I think for
most people's experience, it's not coming from those who want
the traditional LATINSS. You just want the traditional Latin Mass.
They're not looking for any ideological arguments or they're not
even getting into the theology other than the theology of
(05:24):
the liturgy.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Well, and the Pope mentioned the abuses of the New Mass,
but no one suggesting that it be suppressed or banned,
you know, because of that, and father this notion, this narrative.
I'm going to use the term narrative because That's what
I think. It is this narrative that a mass that
was being celebrated, the traditional Latin mass for years under
Pope Benedict, along with the new mass in the same parish.
(05:48):
This didn't cause any conference, there was no polarization. But
this is the narrative. Tell us the difference between that
new mass and the old mass. In substance, what is
difference because even the polpier makes what I would argue
you could quibble about I don't think it's a correct
appreciation that, well they're the same. Just say it in Latin,
say the new mass in Latin.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Well, no, the old mass. The structure of it's essentially
the same as the new mass, because you basically have
the beginning. You have the confedio or the gloria, then
you have the opening prayer, the readings, the offeratry, then
you have the cannon, and then you have the sam
of God and the offering of communion of final blessing.
But the form is a lot different. You know, prayers
(06:30):
at the foot of the altar to begin it. I
remember Alice von Hildebrand, the wife of Dietrich von Hildebrand,
who was a great lover of the traditional Latin Mass,
she said to me. In the old Mass, before you
approached the altar, you begged pardon for your sins. And
it was very symbolically done because the altar boys would
repeat the confedio or after the priest had said it,
(06:52):
and they represented the congregation. Now and reforms that were
done in the fifties, the people could also at a
dialogue Mass say the the only then did you go
up to the altar and kiss it. And the altar
represents Christ, so before you approach the body of Christ,
you asked for pardon. The offeratory prayers were changed, and
that is something that serious objections to. They became blessing
(07:15):
meal time blessing prayers. They weren't as sacrificially oriented as
the old offeratory prayers. Then one of the greatest differences
is the silent canon, because in the old Mass, the
priest says the words, so the whole canon of the
Mass it's very silently, and then the words of consecration
(07:36):
are not heard by most people. Now, all of these change.
The microphones were introduced, and the Vatican did permit microphones
on alters. So you know, Bob will rememberhen I was
a kid, I barely remember the old Mass, but that
was a big difference. And when I went to my
first traditional Latin Mass as a young priest and I
saw the silent canon, I was very moved. You know,
(07:58):
the silent canon is. Pope Benedict said this as a theologian,
it's like the econostasis. You protect the sacred offering by
surrounding it with mystery, just like a kind of statis does.
So that was and then of course we have the
other aspects. Communion was received kneeling at the altar, rail
was received on the tongue. You did not have, you know,
(08:21):
communion in the hand and people standing. So there are
other elements, and you know, people are aware of that.
But the fact of the matter is there are different
sensibilities that prompted the changes, and the Church is willing
to respect those. Under Pope John Pull the second and Benedict,
it was only Pope Rancews who said there's only one
way to look at the Mass, and that was a problem.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, and he cleaved, you know, cut off the entire
tradition that preceded it, or tried to. Meanwhile, and I
guess this is part of that attempt to extinguish the past.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
And as you said, I agree with your father.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
There is something substantively different about the pacing, the timing,
the movements, the gestures, and the people, particularly young people,
they're absorbing that.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I mean, you know, I didn't make the Latin Mass
this week.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I was running too late, but I pulled up right after,
and floods of people are coming out of church, young
people with the babies and the mantillas on their heads.
I mean, there's a mass following here that the church
shouldn't ignore. My bed is Poplio will get an earful
from those who really do understand the difference between the
(09:31):
new and the old, and hopefully they can bring him,
you know, up to speed on the nuances of that
and what's really attracting this young audience. Meanwhile, the band
on the TLM goes into effect full effect. In the
Diocese of Charlotte, North Carolina. We talked about this early
on the beginning of October. There'll be no more mass
Latin Mass in the parishes, just in one remote worship center.
(09:55):
It's not even a parish, and the outgoing Bishop of Monterey,
California has killed the additional Latin Mass in that diocese
as he moves to take over the Diocese of Boston, Texas,
where I'm sure he'll do the same. Father, this seems
to be an obsession at this point.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Well, I think this is part of the syndrome we
could say, of supporting Pope Francis's vision of things and saying,
you know, those bishops say, Pope Francis made this decision,
we must go along with it. And the only answer
to that is just say, now, wait a minute. Pope
Francis also did not abolish the Fraternity of Saint Peter
and the Institute of Christ the King, in other words,
(10:31):
and he gave them, you know, permission to continue to
do what they were always doing, which is to celebrate
the Latin Mass. So it never made sense to me
that you could have some priests who are authorized by
the Pope and then others their local bishops, you know,
are forbidding them. There was a schizophrenia here which which
basically is shown in the fact that you can have
(10:52):
a diocese where the Latin Mass is still permitted and
then the diocese next door they shut it all down.
It makes no sense to me, because where in the
history of the church do pastors throw people out of
their parishes who are obedient, loyal Catholics because the form
of the mass that they like, the Pope didn't really
like it. We just have to say, Holy Father, you're
(11:14):
entieted your opinion, but please, you know, isn't the church
more than the hierarchy. We've always been told that you're right,
We're people of God.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Listen, it's the people of God's church. Until the people
of God want you know, to be sacred, Reverend Holy
and tie themselves to tradition, then it's no longer the
people of God. It's the people of the Pope, the
Church of the Pope. Bob. I want to move to
something that we've also covered in recent weeks, really in years,
regarding diplomatic relations with China. The Pope said this quote.
(11:47):
In the short term, I will continue the policy on
China that the Holy See has followed. But Leo's referring
to that still secret Vatican agreement with China allowing the
CCP input in too choosing Catholic bishops and confirming them.
What do you think is the point here of continuing
this policy?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Well, I would say overall, and this one point is
just part of an overall sense that I think we
get of him from this interview. He says, actually early
on in the excerpts that have been published, that it's
something new for him to be on the world stage,
that there's a huge learning curve that he's going through.
And I kind of take that reading as the kind
(12:30):
of thing that a parish priest comes when he comes
into a new parish, and you know, the bishop may
say to him, look, take a year, learn what's going on,
figure out what's good and what's bad, and what's happened
in the past, and then after you've got a grip
on what's been happening out there, you can do something.
I don't know that he's been very intimately involved in
these negotiations with China. He's been to China, as I understand,
(12:53):
he has some experience of what's there. But certainly he
has to know that since that Seks so called secret
agreement was signed, that the situation of Catholics in China
has not improved, and in fact there's been pressure put
on the hierarchy. As our friendly sche has documented, ten
(13:13):
bishops are missing. We don't know where they are. They
could be dead, they could just be in prison. They
could be being brainwashed, which is typical the Chinese these days,
and then a lot of pressure is put on the
individual churches where the signs of the Virgin Mary crosses
are taken down. President she is talking about cynicizing the
(13:34):
Chinese Church, which means making it internal to China and
not externally connected to the Vatican, and all sorts of
difficulties like that that. Inevitably, I think he's a fair man.
He's an intelligent man. If he's going to look at
this in an objective way, he's going to have to
deal with this at some point. He probably isn't in
a position to make any changes right now, but inevitably
(13:57):
there's going to have to be some change, because it's
not a situation. We know our friend Jimmy Lai is
finally being tried in China for treason and some other
trumped up charges, and we can hope that he has
found guilty and expelled and allowed to go to England
where he has a citizenship.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Father, it is outrageous to me, and I frankly had forgotten,
and it's a pity that the church is not consistently
raising up these ten missing bishops who have either been
arrested or under house arrest, have been ferried away to
some concentration camp. The fact that the church isn't holding
(14:36):
these people up and drawing attention to the suffering church
in China. Do you think there's some long range plan
here or the pope is evolving one.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
I don't think the Pope has a long range planned
at this point. Now, the Secretary of the State may have,
because they are the ones who negotiated the agreement. But
I'll chime in and say absolutely regrettable because again, the
the role of the Catholic Church, the mission of church
is not to engage in diplomatic negotiations with governments. I mean,
(15:07):
does that how the Roman martyrs treated the emperors? You know,
you know before we go to the you know, the
coliseum to be slain. You know, could we just have
a sit down and write a document. We don't do that.
You know, the Church's mission is to preach salvation and
that's what's being harmed by disagreement. I don't know if
you saw as part of the latest news out of
(15:28):
China's they're forbidding Catholics to use the internet as a
tool to evangelize. This is a new decree coming down,
So you're basically surrendering the selection of your bishops to
a group of people who do not have any interest
in what you're doing except to shut it down. And
that's what they're doing. They're shutting it down one by one.
(15:48):
And you know, if the Pope wants to display wisdom
in this matter, he should call in cardinals en and
convene a meeting to kind of reassess the whole thing.
Because Carden said, you know, when we was talking about peripheries,
you know, getting to Rome to tell things, Hong Kong
is the most parent on the longest periphery from Rome
(16:08):
that you can imagine the cardinals sends a ninety five
year old man with wisdom and experience. He should be
listened to.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, and he made that trip to let the cardinals
know about this before this conclave. You would think that,
you know, there might have been some sensitivity to that.
Hopefully that witness endures. That's a good segue. Father to
Pope Leo, reflecting on how he sees his role as pope,
he said this, I don't see my primary role as
(16:37):
trying to be the solver of the world's problems. I
don't see my role as that at all, really, although
I think that the Church has a voice, a message
that needs to continue to be preached, to be spoken
and spoken loudly. End quote. Father. Then Bob, isn't Jesus
Christ the answer to the world's problems?
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Well, of course, because the real problem in the world
the sin and ignorance, you know, ignorance of God and
the refusal to obey His law. The root to happiness
bury across the cavalry, die and rise with Christ. So
the message of salvation, that's what by the way, La
Latin mass. You know, people wanting to have lexio devine
(17:17):
or read the scripture's prayers. People know what the church offers.
They want it. Now when we get into this environmentalism
and immigration advocacy, now we have the artificial intelligence challenge.
You know, we always have to step back and say,
you know, we're speaking from the perspective of what Christ
is wanting to do in the world through us. We
(17:37):
shouldn't pose as an alternate expert who's going to tell
governments what to do.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Bob, your reaction to this job description if he will, If.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
I'm not mistaken, it was Madonna who objection to Frances
saying this because you know, people who are world they
want the Church to talk about world matters. And I'm
glad that he said that directly. Yeah, he kind of
also then in the interview, and this I think again
as part of his learning curve that he's going through
as an international public figure. Plague on the biggest stage
(18:08):
that you can possibly imagine, which is the Church, the
Catholic Church in the world, he still also talks about
you know, he talks about things like immigration and climate
change and whatnot. The Church doesn't have any particular insight
into these things. I mean, what should the immigration policy
be in the United States with the church here? And
(18:30):
what he has often said is we should respect the
dignity of human beings. Well, yeah, of course we should.
All human beings have dignity that was given to them
by God. But doesn't that doesn't solve the question of
how much immigration can any particular country tolerate In Europe,
and I think this is something that he's going to
have to confront before long. Something similar to what Father
(18:53):
was talking about in China is going on. We just
learned in the past few days that apps like hallow
are being banned in the European Union and Bible online
Bible resources, presumably because they say out of worries about
safety or you know, somehow these are going to harm
minorities or maybe Muslims. And there's a kind of a
(19:15):
veto power that is now going on about the presence
of Christianity in developed countries. We see the same thing
in a less formalized way here in the United States.
So look, these are big questions that he's going to
have to grow up to. And I like, starting from
the humble point that we don't really First of all,
it isn't really our business to try to save the
(19:37):
world by solving all the world's problems, because the Church
can't do that. Really, to emphasize those important things that
Christ is the answer. We have certain moral principles that
flow out of our faith in Jesus Christ. We seek
to respect all people, and we provide a floor there
for people of goodwill, and not everybody is of good will.
(19:57):
It was playing as an international actor. People will who
want to respect that can use that to find ways
to solve certain problems. But it's not the church, the
Church's world to solve those problems.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, Father, since Bob raised that theologian Madonna, I'm gonna
read her comment.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
She reacted to the pope's job description.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
There, she said, the whole point of teaching and learning
the Gospel is to inspire people to love one another
and make the world a better place, not just with words,
with actions, which is exactly what Jesus did. I'm truly
disappointed by this, Madonna said, are you disappointed, Father.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
No, you know, I'm not disappointed because I think it's
a necessary corrective. The church is not founded in order
that we would have national parks with no garbage on this,
you know, on the on the lawns. And I'm all
in favor of having national parks with no garbage, but
that's not the mission of the church. The mission of
the church is to get people into heaven. It's to
(20:54):
help souls no love and serve God in this life
and be happy with Him forever in the next. That's
the message. And you know, Madonna, she's you know, she
is a Catholic, and she was raised a Catholic, and
I pray that she'll, you know, make it to heaven
along with me and all of us. But you know,
the pope's job is not a worldly success story mission,
(21:14):
you know, solve solve all the problems. That's not the truth.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
During a lengthy interview or this length the interview rather
with Alan, he also the Pope reflected on LGBT issues,
which he placed in the category of hot button issues.
Your reaction to this comment, he said, quote, people want
the church doctrine to change, want attitudes to change. I
(21:39):
think we have to change attitudes before we even think
about changing what the church says about any given question, Bob.
He went on to say he didn't foresee the church
teaching changing in this regard, but that that idea that
changing attitudes have to occur before church teaching, what does
that mean?
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Yeah, I think that was the most unfortunate part of
this interview. And I think that there too, we see
a reflection that he's he's groping around. He is not
used to speaking in public like this. Bishop Baron said
that he sat at the table with pop Leo then
Robert Prevo during the Synod several times, and he was
the most quiet participant on these sented tables, and so
(22:26):
you know, he's a reticent man. He's thoughtful, but he's
a reticent kind of man. And unfortunately he gave the
impression I don't even like a pope using the term
hot button issues because it makes it look like what
we're talking about is political issues rather than the dogmatic
teachings of the church. This isn't just about, you know,
should there be this or that type of celebration on
(22:47):
a feast day or one thing or another. These things
are things that are negotiable and their issues in a
kind of a generalized way. When we're talking about LGBT,
we're talking about the nature of man and woman placed
in the garden of Eden by God and you know,
made it in his image and likeness. A whole history
of our Western civilization comes forth from that very honorable history.
(23:08):
I think in a number of ways, he's talked about
the importance of the family and how he knows that
even talking about the traditional family as we now have
to call it will anger some people. So look, he's
a little he's a little leery, I think in touching
these issues, and I think he misspoke there. I at
least hope that he does. He doesn't think that that
show the pope can change doctrine. He obviously can't. We
(23:33):
received doctrine and we develop it as Newman told us,
but we never change doctrine.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Well, father, this is the danger of a pope granting these,
you know, extensive interviews over many days. You get dragged
inevitably into areas that, frankly, if you're not someone comfortable
with enunciating your thoughts in public, you can get pulled
into areas where, frankly, you shouldn't go.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yes, this is the objection that's traditionally given to pope's
giving interviews. They didn't do that. Piez the twelfth didn't
give interviews. Paul the six didn't. Uh, there's a reason now,
when the pope is going to issue, for instance, a
sermon or an audience talk, that's drafted, it's reviewed, there's
a theologian who reads it. In other words, every care
(24:19):
is taken in the Holy See. So what the pope
says will be doctrinally accurate, will be pastorally sensitive, and
will be to the point in the interview that's you know,
can be an intellectual ambush. You know, someone were to
interview me and to say, well, you know, the situation
of the church in Bolivia includes the following, what do
you think? I have no way of answering that quote
(24:40):
I'm always going on Olivia.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
You know.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
So if the pope is going to be asked stuff
and then uses expressions such as, you know, changing attitudes,
and my answer is which attitudes are you referring to?
Because attitude, there are good attitudes and there are bad attitudes.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Well, this is a question.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Can you get a plurality of people supporting a given sin?
And then we can move to ask for an official
change in church teaching. I mean, talk father about the
nature of the church. Bob touched on this, the nature
of church teaching. This is not something that the next
guy elected can just wish away and declare, you know,
a new teaching. This is not within the job description
(25:22):
or purview of the pope.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
That's correct, And this is where the struggle is. Why
I object to polarization. Am I being polemical if I
enunciate the teaching of the church when there are many
people object to it? Of course not. Father James Martin
might say, well, you're polemical because you're saying the church
is teaching is unchangeable. Now I'm not being polemical, I'm
being Catholic. The Catholic Church does not present a program
like the Democrats and the Republicans do every four years
(25:45):
at their convention, one year the in favor of this,
then they flip. Now, that's not how we do it.
The Church's teaching on morality is based on the natural
law and divine revelation in the Old and New Testaments.
The Church is teaching on homosexuary has been consistent from
the beginning. There is no possibility of changing it. And
(26:07):
then when you say attitudes have to change, well, which attitude?
I'm happy when I hear church teaching because it confirms
me in my good instincts that there's an order in
the world that God put there. If you say, well,
it's a bad attitude, because people who like to you know,
perform homosexual acts. They object because you say their acts
are bad. That's not an attitude. They're using emotional appeals
(26:30):
to try and silence people who make them feel bit Actually,
a bad conscience is one of the best things you
can have, because it's a reminder that you have a
duty to God. You know, the conscience, Newman said, the
conscience is the aboriginal vicar of Christ. It's God speaking
to you in a very mysterious way. So when I
give a sermon and up people are annoyed, you know,
(26:53):
as long as they didn't talk about something silly. Okay,
you know, but if I talked about Catholic morality, if
you're angry, I'm doing you a favorite because I'm making
you think.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Continuing with Popo Leo, he addressed the Diocese of Rome
recently at the latter in Basilica, and he encouraged the
clergy and the diocese to walk accompany the people in
a way that is quote supportive, empathetic, discreet, non judgmental,
and able to welcome everyone. Father is non judgmental attitudes
(27:26):
and welcoming people. Is that the new benchmark for the clergy.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
This is again one of the areas where we have
we have a huge amount of confusion in the church.
You know, Christ said judge not lest you be judged,
but the context reveals it's condemned not because he also
said that is part of that section of the Gould
condemnation meaning you can't pass a final judgment on the
state of soul of someone you object to, but you
(27:52):
certainly can issue what we call fraternal correction and saying
your objective behavior violates the Gospels standards. So we have
to be judgmental.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Well, Bob, isn't isn't welcoming people and accompanying them, correcting
them as well.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I mean that's what Jesus did.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Jesus didn't say, hey, all your tax collectors and prostitutes,
let's do more of what you're doing. No, no, he
called them to something different and that was a companiment
and welcome too.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
As my colleague Brad Miner wrote it, the Catholic thing
the other day, whatever happened to go and sin no more?
You know that ultimately, look and Leo says this in
the interview. He says, you know, we welcome everyone. And
the real meaning of totos totos totals everybody, everybody. Everybody
is not that we welcome you because you're a member
of this or that group or ethnicity or sexual orientation.
(28:45):
We welcome you because you're a child, or you're a
a son or daughter of God. And so God welcomes
everybody in, but he welcomes them to his world. He
doesn't welcome them into changing his world or you know,
redefining things or saying, you know, I was born in
the wrong body, so I have to transition into a
different gender. It's an entirely different way of thinking about
(29:07):
things that is typical in our democratic political discourse these days.
And I'm glad that Leo said that, although then we
get this other way of speaking about things that makes
it look like we can't judge and father, I think
it's exactly right that we can't judge people's ultimate salvation
or damnation. But even in that Jesuit discernment that Pope
(29:30):
Francis promoted during his entire papacy, you know, the watchword
is see judge act, So you know, you have to
see an objective situation. If you don't do that, what
are you You're just sort of a passive witness to
what's going on around you when you accept everything that's happening. Now,
(29:50):
you'd have to be a fool to be that sort of.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
No, you're either diluted or crazy. Stirring up a bit
of controversy speaking of deluted and crazy. The decision was
made by the Chicago Archbishop, Cardinal Blaze Supage to honor
Illinois Senator Dick Durbin. Now Durbin is a lifelong Democrat.
They're granting him a quote Lifetime Achievement award from the
(30:16):
Archdiison Office of Human Dignity and Solidarity. Durbin's a Catholic
with a long history of defending abortion on demand, et cetera,
and he'll receive this award quote for his work with
immigrants at a November third fundraiser in Chicago. Remarkably, Bishop
Thomas Proprocki of Springfield, Illinois is condemning the move due
(30:39):
to Durbin's record, and Senator Durbin actually resides in Springfield
but considers Cardinal Supach in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
His bishop.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Archbishop Salvator Courdlioni of San Francisco, also weighed in supporting Paprocky.
Some have said Paprocki is threatening unity in the USCCB
for taking this stand. Bob your.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
You know, I used to go out to Chicago quite
a bit, and I was quite close with the previous cardinal, Archbishop,
Cardinal Francis George, and I used to push him about
Senator Durbin because Durbin obviously was one of the leaders
of one of the leaders of the Catholics who were
pro abortion, and I wanted him basically to take a
public stand against Senator Durbin, but he said that he
(31:24):
preferred to invite him in and to be pastoral with him. Now,
for me, that was not enough, because there was a
public offense, and it seemed to me that there needed
to be a public rebuke of what was going on.
But Cardinal George, a very intelligent man, a brave man
in many ways, had to deal with the politics of
Chicago and the politics of even his presbyterate in Chicago.
(31:47):
But there's a difference between taking a different approach to
somebody who's a public stumbling block, which is to say
he presents a scandal to the Catholic people and honorary
him with what is obviously a rationalization that he's good
on immigration. Well, gee, that's wonderful. He's good. He's so
(32:08):
called good on immigration. But in the meantime, how many
thousands of babies were never born, were killed in the
womb because of the political activities of Senator Durbin. To
call this a lifetime achievement and then to say that, actually,
I believe that the archbishop has also said that this
is a reaching out to the other side. I don't
(32:29):
know what kind of reaching out this is. This is
kind of a validation of people who say things in
public that are contrary to the Catholic faith. So look,
it's a tremendous scandal. I wish other bishops would weigh
in on this, not just Paproki and Cordolione. Unfortunately, I
don't think we're going to see this, But maybe a
new day we'll gone with an American pope in Rome
(32:52):
who may take a different view of things, and he's
from Chicago.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah, well, Father Cardinal soupicch is defending the honor this way,
he said, at the heart of the consistent ethic of
life is the recognition that Catholic teaching on the life
and dignity cannot be reduced to a single issue, even
an issue as important as abortion. The annual celebration of
Immigrants Keep Hope Alive will recognize all the critically important
(33:18):
contributions Senator Durbin has taken to advance Catholic social teaching
in the areas of immigration, care for the poor, laudauto
c and world peace. Father, your reaction is that good enough?
Does that wash away all the other abortion objections?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Well, two answers. Number One, abortions of crime not an issue,
so that the language is very revelatory. Secondly, let's say
that so he says, Governor Senator Durbin's bad un abortion
good and immigration. Let's say it was the other way around.
Let's say he was against abortion both was in favor
(33:56):
of shooting immigrants who entered the country illegally and then
bearing them somewhere. Would he be given an honor if
that was his political stance, of course not. What this
does is minimize is the importance of abortion because the
Democratic Party is not interested in stopping abortion, and Dick Durbin,
as a loyal Democrat, is not going to buck that.
(34:17):
Me he probably believes that abortion's okay, he certainly votes
that way. Well, if that's what he thinks, the Catholic
Church has to step away and say, look, you are
not following the teaching of Christ, and therefore Christ representatives
earth are not going to honor you, because we're going
to send the message out to voters and everybody else.
The Catholic Church says it's against abortion, but it's not
(34:38):
really against it because we honor the people who fund
and pay for it. So Cardinal Supik's decision is unthinkable
in the reign of Pious to twelve. Okay, never would happened. Now,
Pope Leo's got to step up and say, in the
reign of Pope Leo, are we going to allow Catholic
politician to be honored by Catholic card We have to
(35:00):
stop this.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, I looked it up. The Archdiocese of Chicago actually
has and Bob, you know this. It probably originated under
Cardinal Francis George. There's a long standing policy of not
granting awards to politicians who oppose Church moral teaching. This
would constitute a violation of Church moral teaching. I'll give
(35:22):
you the last word on this topic book.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
Yeah, and the Bishop's Conference as a whole has warned
against this as well, because look, we have enough confusion
already in the world about what a Catholics teach and
his father rightly says. People look at what you do.
If you say that you're against something or you're for something,
that's fine. They pay attention to it, they listen to
what you're saying. But if you then go to Washington
(35:46):
and what you do is you say, oh, well, look, personally,
I'm against abortion, but you people out there kill all
the babies you want. You know, it's a decision that
you have to make. I can't make that for you.
That's effectively what a lot of these Catholic politicians have
been doing for years. I applaud both Paproki and CORDOLIONI.
Cordalione has told Nancy Pelosi not to present herself for
(36:08):
communion in the Archdiocese of San Francisco, which was a
courageous thing to do, because we know what the social
environment is like out there in San Francisco and the
power that she wields, and we need some more bishops
to step up that way and take the hit. You know,
it's not going to be pretty, but if you're going
to be a Catholic bishop, be a Catholic bishop.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
This is a rather odd story.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Pope Leo delivered a video message to a mixed faith
audience in his native Chicago. Again we're back in Chicago.
This was before an als walk for life.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Galla watch.
Speaker 5 (36:42):
Our Jewish brothers and sisters tell us that one of
the great projects given the human family by God is
to complete and perfect the very good creation given us
tikun olam. As our Muslim friends share in Dahadid, we
are told that seventy thousand angels are present when caretakers
(37:03):
arrive in the morning, seventy thousand other angels arrive.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
In the evening.
Speaker 5 (37:09):
I believe that you two are angels. I pray that
rather than being possessed by frustration or hopelessness or despair,
you surrender yourself to the mystery of human existence, to
the love of your caregivers, and to the embrace of
the Divine One.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Father. Your thoughts on the language used there? Obviously the
posts trying to be inclusive, But no, Jesus, just the Divine.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
One, the Divine One. Yes, sternly God is divine, so
he is the Divine One. But that's not the usual
language that we use. We use the Holy Trinity. We
speak about the incarnate Son of God. It's all good.
I agree with him that we have to promote works
of charity and love, and religious differences don't absolve us
(38:01):
of the obligation to love our neighbor. So of course
that's all to the good. But you know, using this
kind of errendousis language. I don't like that. In fact,
I've noted that over the years, whenever Catholics have ecumenical meetings,
they tend not to use the name of the Fathers
on Holy Spirit if they're for inter religious people present.
(38:21):
That's a mistake. We should always start everything in the
Catholic Church in the name of the Holy Trinity.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Yeah, Bob, you know, it didn't disturb me that he
quote quoted, you know, Jewish teachings and Muslim teachings, but
the natural follow on is and Jesus teaches us xyz.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Yeah. At a time when even many Catholics don't know
our own tradition sometimes I mean people in the public
eye as I often am. I'm sure you are, Raymond.
To you, you're shocked at what how little our Catholics
actually know, or how they've been misinformed by just the
atmosphere around us in the way that the media tended
to start with the church is about It would be
(39:01):
great to quote from the Gospels, you know, and say
that we believe that what our Lord has told us
is the culmination of all these good impulses that exist
in other religious traditions. To do that, of course, again,
to put yourself in the cross here is. But if
you're unwilling to do that, you're not really willing to
stand up for Jesus. And I think Leo wants to
(39:24):
do that. We see that in the interview he emphasizes
that quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
There's another aspect of the interview, this Crux interview, where
he said, quote, it's very difficult to discover the presence
of God in artificial intelligence.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Leo recently refused to allow the creation.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Of a personal avatar of himself, so you know, this
technology is weighing heavily on his mind. Father, your thoughts
about AI and the implications.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Yeah, no, it's a very important question for mankind to
figure out how we're going to legally frame the use
of this new tool, you know, in the scientific toolbox,
and it's very important that it not be used for
evil purposes. And the Pope is absolutely right about that.
On the other hand, yeah, it is a very useful tool,
(40:16):
and the Pope says it in the interview. I was
pleased said in medical operations, you know, when you're doing surgery,
artificial intelligence can be very useful, you know, and cancer research,
artificial intelligence can view cells much more quickly and thoroughly
than the human eye or the mechanism. So for me,
I'm not a scientist. I fascinated when things, you know, develop,
(40:38):
but I don't know enough to tell people what to do.
But I do know as a canon lawyer with a
legal mind. Governments that want to do justice must regulate
this so that you don't have AI activities promoting crime
and harm to people and legal drug use and all
this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Ed Pendons reporting our correspondent friend in Rome this week
that Pope Leo has received African Cardinal.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Robert Sarah in a private audience.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
The details of the meeting remained private, but in a
recent interview, Cardinal Sarah said he was looking with great
confidence to Leo's pontificate. He wishes fiducia suplicans. That was
the document under Pope Francis that allowed gave marriages and
relationships to be blessed. Cardinal Sarah says that document should
be forgotten. Sarah's praised Leo's focus on Christ, his spirit
(41:30):
of listening, dialogue, prudent consideration of tradition. He also is
called into question the crackdown on the traditional Latin mask.
Your thoughts, Bob on this audience and what it might yield.
Speaker 4 (41:43):
Yeah, I wish we had some more detail about this,
because obviously, when a figure like Father James Martin, who's
a darling of the mainstream media, meets with the Pope
he immediately, that immediately gets broadcast everywhere, and the spin
starts as if all you know, Popolio is getting weak,
he's pro LGBT. I think he's already laid down some
(42:05):
markers at the reset. The receiving of LGBT is going
to be on Catholic principles. But I hope we'll see
more of that in the future. Meanwhile, when someone like
Cardinal Burke meets with the Pope and he's going to
be doing a high light and Mass in Saint Peter's
Basilica in a few weeks, or Cardinal Sarah, who is
one of the deepest, deepest spirits we have among the
(42:27):
hierarchy of the church. When they meet, we don't get
the same kind of media buzz. We don't get the
sense of there's something else bubbling up in the church.
And so I'm encouraged that on the one hand, there's
going to be this opening to the traditional Latin Mass,
and on the other hand that Popolio was willing to
spend enough time with Cardinal Sarah, who we probably knows
(42:50):
is a wise counselor and a deep spirit who he
would be wise to listen carefully to so let's hope
that that develops over the future and it begins to
manifest itself in how the church has seen publicly.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Well, this is also the emerging church. I mean, this
is the only font of ordinations and real growth we're
seeing in the church. It's there, it's in Africa. Some
cultural news I need to get to, both related to
the assassination of Charlie Kirk and its aftermath. In the
wake of the tragedy, late night host Jimmy Kimmel was
suspended then reinstated days later for comments he made regarding
(43:27):
the assassination. He tried to say that the MAGA and
the Conservatives were somehow to blame for this murderer, and
then the aftermath was characterized as an active censorship. Was
it an active censorship, father or government censorship?
Speaker 3 (43:47):
As far as I can see, the government nothing to
do with it. It's the management and ownership of that network
that did.
Speaker 5 (43:52):
So.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
You know, the very people who get upset when a
businessman shuts down a failing enterprise or something that brings
discredit on the business. You know, wait a minute, that's
not your business. You don't own it, you're not invested
in it. So businessmen can do what they want, and
it's up to them to you know, fight it in
court if it gets sued by the person they remove.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yeah, Bob, I have to get to this and then
I'll get father's reaction as well. The memorial for Charlie
Kirk was held at Cardinals Stadium in Phoenix before a
near capacity crowd. Millions of people looked in. His widow,
Erica Kirk, delivered an emotional, very powerful remarks about her
late husband and the movement he started, his faith and
(44:37):
notably missus. Kirk declared that she had forgiven her husband's killer.
Your thoughts, Bob on that event and its effects.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
Yeah, look, I watched that with my wife and the
two of us had tears in her eyes when she
said that, because it was clearly something that she struggled
to be able to say. And God bless her. Your
husband and is just dead in a horrible fashion. This
unfortunately deluded young man who gets sucked into left wing
(45:08):
politics and the whole trans ideology thing shoots your husband
and you go and you stand up in front of
not only those twenty thousand people in the stadium itself,
but millions of people all around the world. I got
a note from a priest who told me that he
was talking with a priest in I think Zayir, and
(45:29):
this priest is out in the wilds evangelizing, and everybody
is talking about Charlie Kirk. I mean, it's just amazing
the way that the story went out around the world.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
But that's what.
Speaker 4 (45:41):
We're called to do. I mean, Jesus says, forgive your enemies,
pray for them.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
You know.
Speaker 4 (45:46):
I've written two books about martyrs, and one of the
things that's always struck me about martyrs is the way
that even at the point when they've got the gun
pointing at them, or they're about to be killed in
some other fashion, very few of them apostasize, and almost
all of them are there praying and forgiving the people
who were about to kill them. So look to me.
As many people have said, it was a kind of
(46:07):
a Protestant evangelical event in terms of the affect of it, Yes,
but that was really a culminating moment and maybe for
the Christianity in the United States, a turning point in
and of itself.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
The Father I have to say, I was at a
football game watch party, okay, and the game was so
bad they flipped on the Charlie Kirk memorial. You had
men who know, these guys who don't practice faith at all,
tears in their eyes, some of them saying they had
just opened the Bible for the first time in their lives.
After Charlie Kirk was assassinated. And this moment clearly had
(46:44):
an effect on young men in particular.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
For whatever reason, what are you seeing or hearing?
Speaker 3 (46:50):
Yeah, no, I think to the words of scripture, where
sin has abounded, grace has abounded even more. I mean,
what Charlie's wife did was a manifestation of her deep
and love of God. We are called to forgive those
who persecute us, and she did it. In this Bob
said to millions and millions of people with great confidence
(47:11):
and love, this is how the world gets converted. This
is why martyrs and those that you know are associated
with the family members and friends. This is why they
have such an influence on the world. I mean, look,
you mentioned Jimmy Laie earlier. Jimmy Laie is a Catholic convert.
You know, who's an elderly man at this point in
an on air conditioned cell who is being persecuted precisely
(47:34):
because he upholds what Christ said, you know, the freedom
of the sons of God. That's an inspiration. I every
day I think about Jimmy and I say, this is
I'm so happy that we have people like that in
the world, and I had you know, the Kirk family
now becomes one of the most important historical figures in
the history of the United States because they exemplify what
(47:56):
Christianity means to this country. It's the bedrock of how
we treat each other.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah, it's curious.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Trump was at the UN after that event and he
said no country can survive without law, borders, and religion.
I thought it was an interesting adenda there, which you
don't often hear at the UN. So that was pretty telling.
Even Trump has been moved by this event.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Gents, we're gonna leave it there.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Grateful to you all as always, and look, if you
want more of the Royal Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to
the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube the Royal Grande Podcast
wherever you get yours on behalf of Robert Royal, Father
Gerald Murray. Until the Posse rides again, Stay the course,
follow the light.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
I'm ready at Arroyo We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
is available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Speaker 4 (49:00):
ITS book A practice plish
Host
Raymond Arroyo
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.